Hand Amputation

December 16th, 2006, in News, by Patung

It is proposed that thieves in Aceh have their hands amputated.

According to international reports [1] a draft law in circulation proposes that thieves found guilty of stealing goods worth more than the market price of 94 grams (3 ounces) of gold should have a hand amputated, a punishment which is said to be stipulated in the Koran, and is carried out in a few Islamic countries.

The draft law was published on the 12th in the form of an advertisement in Aceh’s Serambi newspaper that was paid for by the agency responsible for implementing Islamic sharia law, the Wilayatul Hisbah. The advertisement invited submissions and comments on the proposed law so it could be revised before being handed over to the local parliament for review.

________________

February 28th 2007.

The law is still in process and it is expected to be completed by the March. Al Yasa Abubakar, the head of the sharia office, says he hopes the law will lead to all forms of theft in the province disappearing.

The draft law stipulates that hand amputation will be incurred as a punishment only in certain cases, where the value of goods stolen would normally be subject to zakat, or charity tax, and where goods are stolen from their proper place of storage. The latter condition entails that muggers or pickpockets will not be subject to the punishment, and further, first offenders will also not be subject to the punishment; similarly if the offender stole for reasons of desperation, like hunger.

Abubakar said his office had received over 100 SMS messages, telephone calls, and letters stating approval for the proposed law. [2]

↑1 iht
↑2 antara

Tags: Aceh, Religion, Sharia

46 Comments on “Hand Amputation”

Tomaculum Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Isn’t corruption also burglary? Rightfully the corruptors should get their hands also amputated.
Is such “laws” compatible with the government law? If not, is the government so weak and so anxious they don’t do anything against such excrescences?
Maybe Indonesia will later be a province of Saudi Arabia?
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
The cancer continues to spread!
1ndra Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
One tips for not losing one of your hand…dont steal!

Love your hand? Dont steal!
Cant live without hand? Dont steal!

No need to worry”¦it’s such a good thing, we’ll see a decrement in thieves.

If you’re not a thief, you dont need to worry, dont you?
We must be happy with that, because dont need to worry about thieves anymore”¦no thief could steal again if they unarmed

Yeah, only thieves need to worry, dont they?
This law used to protect innocent people who work hard only to found their money stealed.
Bas Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
“I am a thief. I stole from corrupted people to give to poor ones. I never hurt anybody. My friend Pak Amir is also a thief. He has to steal to support his wife and 6 children because he only get a salary of Rp. 550.000 per month and her wife cannot even walk. Once, his son get caught trying to steal a ladder in a garden. He was almost killed by the police. He is only 16. He’s not a bad person. He’s just young. I am sure to cut our hands will help us and our families a lot…”
Oigal Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Indra…You are kidding right..

Like the public floggings are administered fairly or justly..when was the last time you saw one of the rich thieving bastards flogged..as usual it will only be the the “orang miskin” who feel the wrath of idiots.
Andrew Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Ah, how nice - going back to the middle ages. I certainly am not worried because I’m not a thief (and thank God I don’t live in Aceh), but having my country seen as “medieval” certainly worries me.
1ndra Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 12:40 am
Maybe you’re not the person who ever felt angry, sadness from victims who work so hard only found their house have been broken, their loots, tv, Jewelry stealed. Go look around, dont just sit still.

Back to middle ages? Well, stealing, thieving exist in all ages, then why the punishment arent? Thieves are now far more dangerous than in the middle ages. Why soften the laws when thieves are harden?

Dont you read newspaper dudes? There’re many thieves killed their victims too.
Many thieves being jailed, freed, steal plunder rob again and most of them be more aggresive and dangerous, kill their victims…what laws do now? Jailed them again, maybe senteced to death, maybe, but the victims already dead. Who are you choosing now? Other innocents safety or thieves safety? Yeah jail them then feed them freely with victims and candidates one taxes money, while their hard earned money already gone…

Better seen as medieval with ‘we love our good people and hell for bastards’ laws than seen as modern age with ‘what you get is what you lost and sorry we tax you for their in jail needs’ laws.

For corruptors, like Chinesse did…shoot ‘em!

—-

One tips for not losing your hand, dont steal!

Love your hand, dont steal!
Cannot afford to lose your hand, dont steal!
Cant live without hand, dont steal!

Then there’re no thieves anymore”¦we could live in safety and peace.
Tomaculum Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 1:13 am
1ndra, nice to meet you again at this blog.
I see you still have your simple thinking in black and white, hm??

What would you do in this case:
A thief has stolen a chicken from a rich chinese man just because his children have hunger. Should their hand also being amputated? Who should work then to earn money for his family? If you say, it is his own failure, then is this also the failure of his wife (If she’s not already death from hunger) and his little children?
What about the corruptors and the corruptibles?

Besides: is such solo attempt tolerable and compatible with the state legislation?

Dont you read newspaper dudes? There’re many thieves killed their victims too.

And this is for you a reason to establish this sharia law?
Allow me a question: who you are on priority: a Moslem or an Indonesian citizen?
Ihaknt Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 7:31 am
Tomaculum,

I take the liberty to answer your question

who you are on priority: a Moslem or an Indonesian citizen?

do you believe even these people will prioritise Indonesians as a whole? I doubt it, they interpret the teaching to suit their needs and all they care about is to go to this so-called heaven. Again they think if they have accomplish their kewajiban, they need not to do other things, including using their brains and common sense.

Again, it saddens me to know such outdated practice is being implemented and the government turns its back on it. I wont be surprised if the government is bribed and then pass this law. SIGH!!

And your other statement made me shiver…

Maybe Indonesia will later be a province of Saudi Arabia?

God help us I hope not. We are so much more intelligent than that, dont you think? I mean there are a lot of people like you who can think for yourself who will just sooo be devastated if that happens.

And Indra, if you feel so strongly on this because you have been robbed, burglered, stolen from, in the past then i can understand why. But maybe buying a lock and invest on a good security system can help too?
Cukurungan Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Ihaknt Says:

But maybe buying a lock and invest on a good security system can help too?

It seemed you’re never know theft worked. Theft would steal stuff from the poor people home not from the rich like you wich affordable to buy anything to protect yourself.

Anyway, thanks God, You have paved the way the Moslem to impplement sharia law province by province by using the fxxxking democracy.
1ndra Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 9:45 am
Hello again Tomaculum,

I’m an Indonesian citizen and a Moslem. Both.

I have a lot of my friends and my family being robbery victims, no not a chicken robbery here, they lost most valuable items like Jewelries, vehicles, electronics…
In my view there’s must some kind hard laws ‘not sharias’ to press crime down to minimal.

And for low chicken stealing, dont you read the above statement? 94 grams of gold worth steal value, a chicken not even worth one gram of gold.
No starvation people steal 94 grams of gold value food, I count it more than 180 chickens. Whoaa, is it a starve people?
Now, motorcycles and cars worth more than that, and people who steal those are not starve people, they sold and use the money for gambling drinkin go to PSK.
Dont you read newspaper, there’re cows stealing using big vehicle, like boxed pickup car. Are they starve people? They even steal it from poor people.

There’re much more, like, do you read at newspaper about gold shop robbery, the owner shooted to death?

Giving your family food from stealing activities always ‘haram’ no matter how hungry they’re because this is stealing, sin.
But there’s time when haram could turn into halal, like animal corpse, it’s a haram food for Muslim but in this case it permitted.
And in Islam, it’s richer people big sins if they let their neighbours live in poverty and starvation! It could led to disintegration and worse, steal culture.
Now you know how importance zakat is. To ensure your neighbours out from starvation. In other hand, zakat must be uphold too, this is richer Muslim obligation, just like taxes.

As for corruption, I’ve hear and see that Chinesse law make a dead sentence for corruptors.

To Ihaknt:
Oh, I’m not a victim, my neigbourS are, bike car electronics and much much more.
I could feel their pain and sadness.

If there’s a hard laws, like hand amputation, then many people will think thousands times before stealing, ah maybe not think at all because they know it’s the consequences, then there’s no robbery anymore.

Maybe I’m too medieval thought, but I’m just a simple person hoping that there’re no stealing again, so people could live in peace, added with zakat, so people live in harmony.
Ihaknt Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
1ndra, to create a peaceful surroundings, it requires more than just not stealing from each other. Yes fair enough, chopping hands may deter people from stealing, but I still think education is the best solution for many societies. But unfortunately we do need the government help to implement it.

Cukurungan, moi? rich? I wish! If you think buying a handful of gembok is rich then yes maybe I am. I have many gembok but no alarm.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Improving the education, welfare and morals of the people of this country would contribute a lot to reducing the crime rate, upholding of the law for major corruptors would also help, as the money they are stealing could be used for those purposes.

I hope that Irwandi Yusuf & Muhammad Nazar, if they are voted into power will also stop the spread of these sharia based laws, as ex supporters of GAM, they have been campaigning more on a secular platform than a religious one.

With regard to the actual amputation, whilst this may have been a acceptable practice in the days of The Prophet, remembering that extreme forms of punishment such as this was nothing unusual anywhere at that time. Just think of red hot iron bars being forced into the anuses of religious deviants by the Spanish Inquisition. It is not an acceptable pratice in this hopefully enlightened age and the passages from Al Quran need to be re-interpreted.

For a more enlightened view of the relevant verses in Al Quran for those who are interested please read more here Theft Punishment.
Tomaculum Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
1ndra,
I’m sorry for your friends. I have also friends as victims of robbery and burglary.
Me myself a thief had stolen a watch which is very precious for me personally (a gift from a beloved person I can never seen again). But I wouldn’t desire to amputate the thiefs hand.

And for low chicken stealing, dont you read the above statement? 94 grams of gold worth steal value, a chicken not even worth one gram of gold.
No starvation people steal 94 grams of gold value food, I count it more than 180 chickens. Whoaa, is it a starve people?

You didn’t yet answer my question. Should the chicken thief also get his/her hand amputated. I know that there are many “bigger” and “worse” thieves. To my understanding is this sharia law to be execute to every thief. Or is there any exception?
And what about the basic cause of the poverty? As an important reason for burglary and robbery? Of course the thieves have to be prosecuted, but not with such drastic penalties. I think education and help are better (off course there are many unteachables want to earn much money without working hard). But many thieves do their misdeeds because of emergency situation, aren’t they?

Giving your family food from stealing activities always ‘haram’ no matter how hungry they’re because this is stealing, sin.
But there’s time when haram could turn into halal, like animal corpse, it’s a haram food for Muslim but in this case it permitted.

May I interprete this like fol.: these thieves will not prosecuted according to sharia law, because their deeds - in this situation - are permitted (turned to halal)? This isn’t a crticism, but a question.

And in Islam, it’s richer people big sins if they let their neighbours live in poverty and starvation! It could led to disintegration and worse, steal culture.

I have always knew it instinctively, that they are sinner, thanks for this affirmation. Sooo many sinner.

Question to all:
What about zakat from non Moslems? Is this allowed? Isn’t it a haram money? And what about a zakat from corruptors? Is this allowed? This is to my opinion truelly haram money.

Thanks.
1ndra Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
1. About stealing chicken. The answer is no. But please dont make another argument like, how about stealing chickens that valued more than ‘94 gram of gold value’. (Orang kelaparan tidak akan mencuri ratusan ayam)

2. Stealing is haram, my second statement you quoted is not how the stealing become halal, but how haram food like dead animal (Hewan mati yang bukan karena disembelih) become halal because starvation.

3. Yes, you know what I mean.

Zakat is only for Muslim because zakat only applied for Muslim. Non Muslim may donate freely (It’s not zakat but sedekah/sumbangan). Zakat from corruptor unacceptable, because it’s a haram money.

Education is needed, and sure, the punishment too. Every educated person might take the easiest way if they know, the law is soft.
Example : Educated people will tend to corrupt because they know better steal 10 billion rupiah and jailed for 5 years than stealing motorcycle worth 10 million rupiah with the same punishment. 10 billion/5 years = 2 billion/year = 166 million rupiah/month, compared to motorcycle?
When its time to get out from jail, there’s 10 billion rupiah waiting.
That was educated people thought.
They dont fear the laws
But if the law is hardened, they will think thousand times…
Fanglong Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
In addition to what Tom rightly says (Dec 16, 1:22 pm), would an independent Acheh governement use this kind of untimely law ? Let’s fear worse than conceivable ! The wicked practices of a second police corps over the first one’s ? Pity, Lord, pity on us !
1ndra Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Pity only for thieves.
Good people arent.
Tomaculum Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
1ndra:

Zakat is only for Muslim because zakat only applied for Muslim. Non Muslim may donate freely (It’s not zakat but sedekah/sumbangan). Zakat from corruptor unacceptable, because it’s a haram money.

First thanks again for the affirmations. So the money is the same, but the definition is different.
What about the corruptors and the corruptibles? Directly or indirectly they steal money, aren’t they? According to the law has every punished corruptor and corruptibles to be automatically hand amputated, don’t they?

Back to rich Moslems who don’t do zakat. Isn’t zakat the right of the poor people (because zakat is prescribed and who is able but don’t do it is a sinner, as you said)?
So these peoples are also thieves, if they deain the right of others, aren’t they? Hand away?

Educated people will tend to corrupt because they know better steal 10 billion rupiah and jailed for 5 years than stealing motorcycle worth 10 million rupiah with the same punishment. 10 billion/5 years = 2 billion/year = 166 million rupiah/month, compared to motorcycle?
When its time to get out from jail, there’s 10 billion rupiah waiting.
That was educated people thought.

Are you sure, that only educated people think like that? Is corruption and corruptability depend on education? Not a question of conscience with strategy as tools? What is education? School visit or religious study or something else?
1ndra Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
1. Hand amputation? No, death sentence is better. Because they steal in larger number, take away what people needs, make starvation grow larger and much much more…those people need to be executed.

2. Education in stealing…educated thieves means they could think and plan how to steal more (Corrupt) but punished less (Bribe here…bribe there), uneducated people tend to steal and rob directly.
That was my only view, correct me if I’m wrong.
Ihaknt Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 5:06 am
Educated people will tend to corrupt because they know better steal 10 billion rupiah and jailed for 5 years than stealing motorcycle worth 10 million rupiah with the same punishment. 10 billion/5 years = 2 billion/year = 166 million rupiah/month, compared to motorcycle?
When its time to get out from jail, there’s 10 billion rupiah waiting.
That was educated people thought.

Education in stealing”¦educated thieves means they could think and plan how to steal more (Corrupt) but punished less (Bribe here”¦bribe there), uneducated people tend to steal and rob directly.

What? huh? What? Is it just me or does anyone else think that this logic is hard to follow? Actually, is that even logic at all?

1ndra, is this just your analogy/thought or is it another ‘experience’ your friends/neighbour did?

The education is not just needed for the major of “stealing”. We are talking education as a whole, what’s right and wrong, being able to think for oneself, etc.

If the education is about stealing then yes some opportunist will actually learn the loopholes and get around it.

Hehehe, this gets me thinking how many credit you need to be able to pass the subject.

The death sentence…well it’s a bit harsh if it’s done for stealing. But if the alleged person’s wrong doing merugikan lots of people or even the whole community then, yeah, maybe after a ‘fair’ trial then he/she can be sentenced to death.

Many are not give the death sentence, but the people who are dirugikan, whether it is the company he/she steals from, the society where he/she lives, would make sure that he/she is not going to have an easy life. Many even commit suicide due to the pressure and shame. Don’t you think it’s a harsher punishment, to let one dwell in their guilt or shame and then go crazy and kill themselves? I’d choose psychological punishment over death sentence.
Bradlymail Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 8:48 am
What about the corruptors ?
Dimp Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
The only way corruption is through education, at the moment Indonesian has no sense of communal feeling, there is no sense of public property.

Just look at the vandalism, they don’t care as they think “Hey, this is not mine, I can destory this and I won’t have to pay for this”.

People stealing from the government, they just don’t care.
1ndra Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Ihaknt: It’s my personal view.
Educated people get better job so he had access in many ‘wet’ area, educated people have better logical (Not short minded), educated people could make a strategy for stealing. That’s called corruption.
Dont you see, why corruptors are harder and almost impossible to be caught?

And what separated between educated people?
Morale. That makes the one to be a corruptor but not the other.
Ihaknt Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 5:10 am
1ndra, exactly! That’s why i mentioned, education as a whole, what’s right and wrong, etc. “Soft” education also starts at home not just at schools. What i mean by soft is the intangible things. Parents need punish children if they behave badly.

Anyway, it is difficult if the ‘thieves’ are the people on the highest position AKA the government. Does that mean we will have limbless people in the government? They definitely “steal” from people. And their kids, if they study overseas, OMG, of course not all of them are bad, but some are just arrogant pri*ks and lazy, and just spend mum and dad’s money, or should I say the tax payers’ money.
Tomaculum Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
The problem is with many Indonesian, that the border beetwen anger and hate (read self rightousness and self justice) is very blurred.

A catched egg thief is often lynched to death.

To my opinion such punishment can increase the tendency to vigilante justice (or this is a kind of vigilante justice).
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
For those who consider this form of punishment as justice please watch this video, this is Sharia law in action:

Sharia Amputation. Warning contains scenes of extreme cruelty!

Is this humane? Is this the behaviour of civilised people? As I said earlier, reinterpretation of the verses in Al Quran is long overdue.
Ihaknt Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Iew MK, where did you get it from? I havent seen it and WILL NOT want to see it. I personally dont need to be reminded that this kind of punishment is barbaric and so passe. I am guessing that anasthetic was not used either. OUCH! what did he steal? Was it something very petty?

More questions, would this kind of punishment apply to a person whose crime has been proven? Because, what if the person is actually innocent?
1ndra Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Mohammed Khafi: Tell that to the barbaric thieves…who hurt and even kill their victims…no civilized laws applied for non-civilized thieves.

Ihaknt:

Sure, they need to be proved, no one jailed for nothing.

Ok, I added a soften law opinion.
The thief given a chance to return all of his steals to his victims, regret and swore by The God no to do that again (Taubat), then the hand amputation may be canceled and he got jailed only (This is NOT applied for barbaric thieves who hurt/kill their victims).
That was the first and the last chance, if he broke the ‘Taubat’, then the amputation applied.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
1ndra,

Sometimes I wonder if we have the same God, mine stands for compassion and mercy, just what does yours stand for?

When it is possible to have a compassionate, merciful and just interpretation of the verses which you say call for amputation, why do you still insist on this barbarity?

I will include the link again for a civilised, thoughtful interpretation of the relevant verses QURANIC PUNISHMENT FOR THEFT.

If you can fault the arguments put forward there please let us know.
Fanglong Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
Hi M. Kh. !

I quicky read the above link : what a relief & fresh air !

I’m going to read more. Thanx for the link.

A good day to all !
1ndra Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Thanks for the link too.

I see a mis-read in it.
In my Quran and all my exegenesises, written :

(5) Al Maidah

(38) Laki-laki dan perempuan yang mencuri, potonglah tangan keduanya (sebagai) pembalasan bagi apa yang telah mereka kerjakan dan sebagai siksaan dari Allah. Dan Allah Maha Perkasa lagi Maha Bijakana
(39) Maka barangsiapa bertaubat (di antara pencuri-pencuri itu) sesudah melakukan kejahatan tersebut dan memperbaiki diri, maka sesungguhnya Allah menerima taubatnya. Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Pengampun lagi Maha Penyanyang.

In verse 38, it’s said cut their hand, NOT three or more hand.
Is it his reading failure, or Quran writing failure?

And in the exegenesis from the verse 39, someone adult who proved guilty and he will be cut hand BUT if the thief regrets it then return the stealed goods and the victim forgive him as God Forgive him then the cut hand could be canceled, BEFORE the case handled by authority.

——–

Which is cut? In HR. Imam Syafi’i from Abu Hurairah : First cut his right hand, if he steal again, cut the left, if he steal again, cut the right foot, if he steal again, he will be jailed or exiled.

In Rasulullah saw days, there’s a case where a woman proved guilty by stealing, the Quraisy trying to redeem her with 500 dinar but Rasulullah saw reject it and command to cut her right hand.
Rasulullah saw then speak :
‘Bahwasanya yang membinasakan orang-orang sebelum kamu ialah karena sesungguhnya mereka apabila yang mencuri di antara mereka adalah orang-orang terkemuka, maka mereka membiarkannya pergi, apabila yang mencuri itu orang-orang lemah, mereka dijatuhi hukumannya. Saya, demi Allah yang diriku berada di dalam tangan-Nya, andaikata Fatimah anak Muhammad mencuri, pastilah saya potong tangannya’ (HR Asy-Syaikhan from Aisyah)
Then the woman being executed, after that the woman ask Rasulullah saw, ‘is my Taubat accepted by Allah?’ Rasulullah said, ‘Yes, today you’re cleared from your sins like the day you were born’

The woman is a highly regarded person in Quraisy, al-Makhzumiyah. Rasulullah said that former culture, when highly regarded people steal, everyone excuse and let them but when weak/low people steal they’re punished. So Rasulullah gave the order to executed the woman to show that there’re no mercy/excuse for highly regarded people, they’re the same with weak/low people.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Hi 1ndra,

You said:

In verse 38, it’s said cut their hand, NOT three or more hand.
Is it his reading failure, or Quran writing failure?

In all of the english translations I can find it says hands (plural):

YUSUFALI: As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

PICKTHAL: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

SHAKIR: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

What he is saying in the article is that the original Arabic word ‘aydiyahuma’ means three or more hands.

The Arabic word ‘eqta’u’ means “cut” while ‘aydiyahuma’ refers to “the (three or more) hands of the male and female thief”. Thus the expression ‘eqta’u’ ‘aydiyahuma’, in aya 5:38 above, stands literally for “cut their (three or more) hands.”

As this does not make sense because people only have two hands he then goes on to give other uses for the singular ‘yad’ of the plural word ‘aydiyahuma’ in Al Quran to try to define what ‘aydiyahuma’ really means:

First, the Arabic word ‘yad’ (in dual plural in 5:38 above) or “hand” is used in Quran in its literal and figurative meanings. For instance, 27:12 uses it in its literal meaning while 5:64 uses it in its figurative one to refer to wealth and resources.

27:12, “Put your hand ‘yad’ (O Moses) in your pocket; it will come out white, without a blemish. These are among nine signs ‘ayat’ to Pharaoh and his people, for they are wicked people.”

5:64, “The Jews even said, “God’s ‘yad’ hand is tied down!” It is their ‘yad’ hands that are tied down. They are condemned for uttering such a blasphemy. Instead, His both ‘yad’ hands are wide open, spending as He wills…”

Another example for the non-literal meaning is 38:45. It uses ‘yad’ in plural (three or more) form. It conveys the meaning of power and possession of resources.

38:45, “Remember also our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were resourceful ‘ulu al-aydee’ (with many hands), and possessed vision/They possessed power and vision.”

‘yad’ is also used to infer someone’s actions and doings (2:195, 22:10). It is used too to mean possession of a responsibility or a contract (2:237).

Therefore, ‘eqta’u aydiyahuma’ in the above ayat 5:38 means to cut off from the thieves’ resources and power.

I think this makes more sense from a grammatical viewpoint and also from the understanding of Allah being compassionate and merciful.
Ihaknt Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 4:19 am
By the way below was not my quote 1ndra, i never said this

Sure, they need to be proved, no one jailed for nothing.

but i will comment on it anyway. Dont be so naive. Many are jailed for crimes they didnt commit. Many are executed for crimes they didnt commit. Many women were stoned to death for crimes they didnt commit, they fell pregnant because some d*ckheads raped them and then the women were stoned? It’s barbaric. Anyway my point is that many people are jailed for crimes they didnt commit, that’s why these days we have this so-called court for justice. And yes this can start another discussion that this court is bribe-infested…

BUT if you’re saying that these thieves will be given a trial before the amputation, then, I would like to see it. Most time they probably already bonyok digebukin massa…even then sometimes the massa only accuse not based on legit proof.
Sayid Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 9:34 am
The Koran is being interpreted with the wrong context. The true context of that part was purely a recital of what the law was at the time and place of writing. I don’t believe Allah wants people to amputate thieves hands, commit “honour” killings or kill those who “insult” Islam. This kind of insanity is one of the main reasons why much of the Islamic world is in such an unpleasant state.

Muslims should get more angry towards those who commit sins in the name of Islam.
1ndra Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 10:30 am
Mohammed Khafi:
Yes, Allah is merciful as stated in 39, but His mercy only for the one who ask for it, taubat.
That’s why He created heaven and hell. One for people who deserved that AND people who their taubat accepted, the last one is for people who never do taubat.

Ihaknt:
No, that wasnt your writing, its mine, my writing for your comment, but I dont know how it came quoted as I never click it.
But that was a ‘luas’ comment, I know people could being accused for something he didnt do. Everyone could make it happen.
My ‘Sure, they need to be proved, no one jailed for nothing’ presenting only if there’re ‘pengadilan yang adil’, uncorrupted court.

——–

Most time they probably already bonyok digebukin massa”¦even then sometimes the massa only accuse not based on legit proof

Yeah, because they are angry, they work hard only to be stealed. And the thief arent affraid with the laws.
But most time, they being gebuk’ed by massa because they ‘tertangkap basah’ CIA, caught in the act.
Tomaculum Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Frequently the mob doesn’t only bash them, but lynch them.
“In dubio pro reo” in Indonesia? Rather “in dubio pro mob”!!
Isn’t it primitive and inhuman?
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Tomaculum said:

Isn’t it primitive and inhuman?

Yes of course it is, but this is what happens when the laws and punishments of the middle ages are applied in our supposedly modern times.

The Door of Ijtihad or Reasoning in Islamic Law was closed many centuries ago, by those who wanted to control the people, to stifle independent thought among Muslims and to confine the right to understand and explain Islam to Muslim jurists. It is also opposed to reasoning, because it essentially says that reason shall be employed only when the texts are silent and no medieval scholar has addressed the issue under scrutiny. Reason, according to this viewpoint, is the last resort for understanding the will of God, this is the same law that some of them want to put in place in Indonesia now.

The days of classical Islamic civilization at its peak. The time Ibn Sina’ (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes), al-FArabi, al-Biruni and al-Haytham — scientists, philosophers and jurists of Islam’s “Golden Age” are long gone, destroyed by this adherence to a fixed set of Laws. Laws which the Islamic clergy say have to be unchanging, laws which have kept Islam in the middle ages while the rest of the world has used reasoning, knowledge, enquiry and learning to advance themselves, leaving most of the Islamic world behind.

Most encyclopedias define Sharia as law derived from the Qur’an, the Sunna, and classical Fiqh derived from Hadith. This definition of Sharia inappropriately lumps together the revealed (from God) Al Quran with the unrevealed (from Man) Sunnah, Fiqh and Hadith.

This blending of sources has created the idea that manmade assumptions and heresay are as sacred and beyond revision as is Al Quran. These manmade sources are protected by the Islamic clergy, who typically accuse anybody who objects to their laws of being an apostate, which brings with it the threat of being sentenced to death!
JKS Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 4:19 am
100% agree that stupid sharia rule must apply to all Indonesia Muslims, not only Aceh, as soon as possible! Even I’m willing to donate to make this happen.

Nightmare for corruptors and thieves, this time I really agree with Mr M.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
JKS,

You obviously misunderstood my last comments, I am saying that Sharia should not even exist, it is a construct of the Islamic Clergy of The Middle Ages to exercise control over the masses. It has no justification based on the teachings of God as given in Al Quran. Sharia just gives more control to the rich and powerful and is a shield for them to hide their misdeeds.
1ndra Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Well, what better laws for thieves and corruptors?
Let them free with some money?

Or with verse 38-39, their exegenisis with some new implementation :

Free the thieves only when they give back ALL their steal to their victim. Regret and swear not to do that again (Taubat). Later, if they broke their Taubat…you’ve read my opinions above.

That might sound sharia to some people, but look on the good side : Return and regret but repeating then ready for being punished.
And should be noted that are only applied for ‘good’ thieves, not a barbaric one.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 9:23 pm
This sort of barbaric act can never be justified if it is premeditated. If we turn to a justice system such as this, the criminals will only become more barbaric themselves, making sure that no witnesses are left for their crimes. It is not possible to change a criminals heart, through fear of punishment. Just look at America as an example of that, they have capital punishment but does it stop crime?

The only compassionate and caring way is to try and make our educational and social welfare systems supportive of a more caring and balanced society, we have to ensure that job creation is a priority. We also need Law Makers, Police and the Judiciary to do their jobs, they are after all, servants of the people, not just servants of the rich people! We have to stamp out corruption and create a transparent government, where laws and regulations are clear and known to all and more importantly fair to all.

Just as you cannot promote religion at the point of a gun you cannot promote morals and respect for the law by barbaric acts. Fear and terror never change a persons heart, they just make it harder and less compassionate.
1ndra Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 10:29 pm
Good opinion MK, but thats the hardest act, changing almost totally.

As you can see, nowadays, even without that harden laws, thieves act barbaric, hurt their victim or even badly, left no witnesses.
They fear to be jailed but not feared the laws itself.

Sometimes I heard good men being victim to violence because they give advice to bad people. Dont you ever hear, a man being stabbed to death because he’s trying to break up a fight.

What I’m talking isnt changing a thieves heart by soften the laws, it’s useless, but limited their numbers with harden laws to protect the innocent civilians. Sound harsh did I?

Yes, I’ve ever heard a barbaric thief that realize he is doing bad, and back to better ways, BUT at the cost of many victims? He’s only one but the victims are many. Is he worth it?
What is better, advicing barbaric thief to return to the better way, but maybe he’s not listening to you, even he’s still making another crime. Just imagine if the next victim is your family, what are you feeling that day?
For me, its far better with harden laws than my family become the next target.

Soften laws didnt change thieves morality from bad to good, maybe its just pleasing them to make other crimes.
Qinny Says:
December 31st, 2006 at 9:13 pm
People say, ‘If you don’t want to lose a hand, then don’t steal.’ Of course this is absurd, as it overlooks the fact that punishment is only a minor deterrent to any crime. People still murder in Texas, even though they know they will get the death penalty.

It’s a brutal, sadistic, and barbaric practise.
Dragonwall Says:
September 21st, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Isn’t corruption also burglary

No, it is daylight robbery.

Yeah, only thieves need to worry, dont they

Look more on the broader side of their law. Have you seen people accused of stealing when they didn’t? Distraction. Why? for a cause. For what? Think more indepth. For the pris they have the protection by the crowds so they need not worry too much. But for others, religiously and ethnically explore the mind.

I once bought a house near Cengkareng’s elite housing complex. This house was brand new renovated. When I left for Singapore I had my brother in law to look after the house. He left for the market to get some food. In less than 20 minutes the house was wipe clean of every thing like computer, electronics and valuables with doors and windows pry open by linggis. This complex employed Kodim as security. Just imagine! How can a person carry a big and bulky TV. It was finally deducted that it is most likely the job of tukang sampah that came in with their garbage truck. The RW, a muslim pri, and his son used to be ex convict. The head of security were aware. Whether they kong kali kong or not is for them to know and for me to find out. I call im the PM and they pacify me not to lodge the report and were unable to replace my items. This was in the early 90s and I lost almost 100 million rups. I decided to let them go perhaps the head of security were really unaware of that.

So when they tried to set certain law of their own, like I said, they copy from others and have them implemented. The end results will not be that simple.

So watch out what will they think of next.
Dragonwall Says:
October 2nd, 2007 at 7:14 am
The draft law was published on the 12th in the form of an advertisement in Aceh’s Serambi newspaper that was paid for by the agency responsible for implementing Islamic sharia law, the Wilayatul Hisbah.

Is this country called Indonesia or Islamisia? The government allows the media to carry out such paid advertisements? And did nothing to that? No one was brought to the court for allowing or passing such publication, considered to be propaganda? What has the Qur have to do with the law? How come there are so many smart alek in the Islamic community making so much demands base on what they want to be and not what the law want them to be.

The law is still in process and it is expected to be completed by the March. Al Yasa Abubakar, the head of the sharia office, says he hopes the law will lead to all forms of theft in the province disappearing.

This piece of cow dang sounded as tough he is the law maker. The Indonesian government should tell those in the Sharia office to only mind their affairs instead of interferring in state affairs as called by the UU 1945. In fact the government could abolish it or restrict them. Any such interferrence shall be considered to be punishable by law by passing materials to the public not being constitutionally approved.

You know yesterday the president’s office was flooded with SMS and phone calls as well as the television to have this Al Qaeda Yasa Arafat hanged. I wonder if he receives news of this will be dig a hole and hide himself.

Indonesians seemed to have a penchant to condoning such act when someone just say he receive many supporters in the hundreds. It is the millions that will be persecuted for no apparent reason being discriminated unjustly in a so call democratic country.

Someone should shaft that up that Arafat’s ass.
Andre Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Stealing certainly worthy of punishment, but will punishment be a learning example?

I have a lot due to people sole from me and plundered my belongings. But I still think that the worst of all the bad is pride… then the second is lying…

Yes, definitely pride and lying are the top most abominations. Stealing only comes as manifestation of those two.

In the biblical era any of the above were worthy stoning to death…. so why bother with cutting hand?????

But I am not the judge.