Hand Amputation

Dec 16th, 2006, in IM Posts, by

It is proposed that thieves in Aceh have their hands amputated.

According to international reports [1] a draft law in circulation proposes that thieves found guilty of stealing goods worth more than the market price of 94 grams (3 ounces) of gold should have a hand amputated, a punishment which is said to be stipulated in the Koran, and is carried out in a few Islamic countries.

The draft law was published on the 12th in the form of an advertisement in Aceh's Serambi newspaper that was paid for by the agency responsible for implementing Islamic sharia law, the Wilayatul Hisbah. The advertisement invited submissions and comments on the proposed law so it could be revised before being handed over to the local parliament for review.

________________

February 28th 2007.

The law is still in process and it is expected to be completed by the March. Al Yasa Abubakar, the head of the sharia office, says he hopes the law will lead to all forms of theft in the province disappearing.

The draft law stipulates that hand amputation will be incurred as a punishment only in certain cases, where the value of goods stolen would normally be subject to zakat, or charity tax, and where goods are stolen from their proper place of storage. The latter condition entails that muggers or pickpockets will not be subject to the punishment, and further, first offenders will also not be subject to the punishment; similarly if the offender stole for reasons of desperation, like hunger.

Abubakar said his office had received over 100 SMS messages, telephone calls, and letters stating approval for the proposed law. [2]


77 Comments on “Hand Amputation”

Pages: [1] 2 3 »

  1. avatar Tomaculum says:
    December 16th, 2006 at 1:22 pm

    Isn’t corruption also burglary? Rightfully the corruptors should get their hands also amputated.
    Is such “laws” compatible with the government law? If not, is the government so weak and so anxious they don’t do anything against such excrescences?
    Maybe Indonesia will later be a province of Saudi Arabia?

  2. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 16th, 2006 at 8:00 pm

    The cancer continues to spread!

  3. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 16th, 2006 at 10:03 pm

    One tips for not losing one of your hand…dont steal!

    Love your hand? Dont steal!
    Cant live without hand? Dont steal!

    No need to worry”¦it’s such a good thing, we’ll see a decrement in thieves.

    If you’re not a thief, you dont need to worry, dont you?
    We must be happy with that, because dont need to worry about thieves anymore”¦no thief could steal again if they unarmed

    Yeah, only thieves need to worry, dont they?
    This law used to protect innocent people who work hard only to found their money stealed.

  4. avatar Bas says:
    December 16th, 2006 at 11:11 pm

    “I am a thief. I stole from corrupted people to give to poor ones. I never hurt anybody. My friend Pak Amir is also a thief. He has to steal to support his wife and 6 children because he only get a salary of Rp. 550.000 per month and her wife cannot even walk. Once, his son get caught trying to steal a ladder in a garden. He was almost killed by the police. He is only 16. He’s not a bad person. He’s just young. I am sure to cut our hands will help us and our families a lot…”

  5. avatar Oigal says:
    December 16th, 2006 at 11:13 pm

    Indra…You are kidding right..

    Like the public floggings are administered fairly or justly..when was the last time you saw one of the rich thieving bastards flogged..as usual it will only be the the “orang miskin” who feel the wrath of idiots.

  6. avatar Andrew says:
    December 16th, 2006 at 11:13 pm

    Ah, how nice – going back to the middle ages. I certainly am not worried because I’m not a thief (and thank God I don’t live in Aceh), but having my country seen as “medieval” certainly worries me.

  7. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 12:40 am

    Maybe you’re not the person who ever felt angry, sadness from victims who work so hard only found their house have been broken, their loots, tv, Jewelry stealed. Go look around, dont just sit still.

    Back to middle ages? Well, stealing, thieving exist in all ages, then why the punishment arent? Thieves are now far more dangerous than in the middle ages. Why soften the laws when thieves are harden?

    Dont you read newspaper dudes? There’re many thieves killed their victims too.
    Many thieves being jailed, freed, steal plunder rob again and most of them be more aggresive and dangerous, kill their victims…what laws do now? Jailed them again, maybe senteced to death, maybe, but the victims already dead. Who are you choosing now? Other innocents safety or thieves safety? Yeah jail them then feed them freely with victims and candidates one taxes money, while their hard earned money already gone…

    Better seen as medieval with ‘we love our good people and hell for bastards’ laws than seen as modern age with ‘what you get is what you lost and sorry we tax you for their in jail needs’ laws.

    For corruptors, like Chinesse did…shoot ‘em!

    —-

    One tips for not losing your hand, dont steal!

    Love your hand, dont steal!
    Cannot afford to lose your hand, dont steal!
    Cant live without hand, dont steal!

    Then there’re no thieves anymore”¦we could live in safety and peace.

  8. avatar Tomaculum says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 1:13 am

    1ndra, nice to meet you again at this blog.
    I see you still have your simple thinking in black and white, hm?? :)

    What would you do in this case:
    A thief has stolen a chicken from a rich chinese man just because his children have hunger. Should their hand also being amputated? Who should work then to earn money for his family? If you say, it is his own failure, then is this also the failure of his wife (If she’s not already death from hunger) and his little children?
    What about the corruptors and the corruptibles?

    Besides: is such solo attempt tolerable and compatible with the state legislation?

    Dont you read newspaper dudes? There’re many thieves killed their victims too.

    And this is for you a reason to establish this sharia law?
    Allow me a question: who you are on priority: a Moslem or an Indonesian citizen?

  9. avatar Ihaknt says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 7:31 am

    Tomaculum,

    I take the liberty to answer your question

    who you are on priority: a Moslem or an Indonesian citizen?

    do you believe even these people will prioritise Indonesians as a whole? I doubt it, they interpret the teaching to suit their needs and all they care about is to go to this so-called heaven. Again they think if they have accomplish their kewajiban, they need not to do other things, including using their brains and common sense.

    Again, it saddens me to know such outdated practice is being implemented and the government turns its back on it. I wont be surprised if the government is bribed and then pass this law. SIGH!!

    And your other statement made me shiver…

    Maybe Indonesia will later be a province of Saudi Arabia?

    God help us I hope not. We are so much more intelligent than that, dont you think? I mean there are a lot of people like you who can think for yourself who will just sooo be devastated if that happens.

    And Indra, if you feel so strongly on this because you have been robbed, burglered, stolen from, in the past then i can understand why. But maybe buying a lock and invest on a good security system can help too?

  10. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 8:26 am

    Ihaknt Says:

    But maybe buying a lock and invest on a good security system can help too?

    It seemed you’re never know theft worked. Theft would steal stuff from the poor people home not from the rich like you wich affordable to buy anything to protect yourself.

    Anyway, thanks God, You have paved the way the Moslem to impplement sharia law province by province by using the fxxxking democracy.

  11. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 9:45 am

    Hello again Tomaculum,

    I’m an Indonesian citizen and a Moslem. Both.

    I have a lot of my friends and my family being robbery victims, no not a chicken robbery here, they lost most valuable items like Jewelries, vehicles, electronics…
    In my view there’s must some kind hard laws ‘not sharias’ to press crime down to minimal.

    And for low chicken stealing, dont you read the above statement? 94 grams of gold worth steal value, a chicken not even worth one gram of gold.
    No starvation people steal 94 grams of gold value food, I count it more than 180 chickens. Whoaa, is it a starve people?
    Now, motorcycles and cars worth more than that, and people who steal those are not starve people, they sold and use the money for gambling drinkin go to PSK.
    Dont you read newspaper, there’re cows stealing using big vehicle, like boxed pickup car. Are they starve people? They even steal it from poor people.

    There’re much more, like, do you read at newspaper about gold shop robbery, the owner shooted to death?

    Giving your family food from stealing activities always ‘haram’ no matter how hungry they’re because this is stealing, sin.
    But there’s time when haram could turn into halal, like animal corpse, it’s a haram food for Muslim but in this case it permitted.
    And in Islam, it’s richer people big sins if they let their neighbours live in poverty and starvation! It could led to disintegration and worse, steal culture.
    Now you know how importance zakat is. To ensure your neighbours out from starvation. In other hand, zakat must be uphold too, this is richer Muslim obligation, just like taxes.

    As for corruption, I’ve hear and see that Chinesse law make a dead sentence for corruptors.

    To Ihaknt:
    Oh, I’m not a victim, my neigbourS are, bike car electronics and much much more.
    I could feel their pain and sadness.

    If there’s a hard laws, like hand amputation, then many people will think thousands times before stealing, ah maybe not think at all because they know it’s the consequences, then there’s no robbery anymore.

    Maybe I’m too medieval thought, but I’m just a simple person hoping that there’re no stealing again, so people could live in peace, added with zakat, so people live in harmony.

  12. avatar Ihaknt says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 12:32 pm

    1ndra, to create a peaceful surroundings, it requires more than just not stealing from each other. Yes fair enough, chopping hands may deter people from stealing, but I still think education is the best solution for many societies. But unfortunately we do need the government help to implement it.

    Cukurungan, moi? rich? I wish! If you think buying a handful of gembok is rich then yes maybe I am. I have many gembok but no alarm.

  13. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 1:04 pm

    Improving the education, welfare and morals of the people of this country would contribute a lot to reducing the crime rate, upholding of the law for major corruptors would also help, as the money they are stealing could be used for those purposes.

    I hope that Irwandi Yusuf & Muhammad Nazar, if they are voted into power will also stop the spread of these sharia based laws, as ex supporters of GAM, they have been campaigning more on a secular platform than a religious one.

    With regard to the actual amputation, whilst this may have been a acceptable practice in the days of The Prophet, remembering that extreme forms of punishment such as this was nothing unusual anywhere at that time. Just think of red hot iron bars being forced into the anuses of religious deviants by the Spanish Inquisition. It is not an acceptable pratice in this hopefully enlightened age and the passages from Al Quran need to be re-interpreted.

    For a more enlightened view of the relevant verses in Al Quran for those who are interested please read more here Theft Punishment.

  14. avatar Tomaculum says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 1:59 pm

    1ndra,
    I’m sorry for your friends. I have also friends as victims of robbery and burglary.
    Me myself a thief had stolen a watch which is very precious for me personally (a gift from a beloved person I can never seen again). But I wouldn’t desire to amputate the thiefs hand.

    And for low chicken stealing, dont you read the above statement? 94 grams of gold worth steal value, a chicken not even worth one gram of gold.
    No starvation people steal 94 grams of gold value food, I count it more than 180 chickens. Whoaa, is it a starve people?

    You didn’t yet answer my question. Should the chicken thief also get his/her hand amputated. I know that there are many “bigger” and “worse” thieves. To my understanding is this sharia law to be execute to every thief. Or is there any exception?
    And what about the basic cause of the poverty? As an important reason for burglary and robbery? Of course the thieves have to be prosecuted, but not with such drastic penalties. I think education and help are better (off course there are many unteachables want to earn much money without working hard). But many thieves do their misdeeds because of emergency situation, aren’t they?

    Giving your family food from stealing activities always ‘haram’ no matter how hungry they’re because this is stealing, sin.
    But there’s time when haram could turn into halal, like animal corpse, it’s a haram food for Muslim but in this case it permitted.

    May I interprete this like fol.: these thieves will not prosecuted according to sharia law, because their deeds – in this situation – are permitted (turned to halal)? This isn’t a crticism, but a question.

    And in Islam, it’s richer people big sins if they let their neighbours live in poverty and starvation! It could led to disintegration and worse, steal culture.

    I have always knew it instinctively, that they are sinner, thanks for this affirmation. Sooo many sinner.

    Question to all:
    What about zakat from non Moslems? Is this allowed? Isn’t it a haram money? And what about a zakat from corruptors? Is this allowed? This is to my opinion truelly haram money.

    Thanks.

  15. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 4:04 pm

    1. About stealing chicken. The answer is no. But please dont make another argument like, how about stealing chickens that valued more than ’94 gram of gold value’. (Orang kelaparan tidak akan mencuri ratusan ayam)

    2. Stealing is haram, my second statement you quoted is not how the stealing become halal, but how haram food like dead animal (Hewan mati yang bukan karena disembelih) become halal because starvation.

    3. Yes, you know what I mean.

    Zakat is only for Muslim because zakat only applied for Muslim. Non Muslim may donate freely (It’s not zakat but sedekah/sumbangan). Zakat from corruptor unacceptable, because it’s a haram money.

    Education is needed, and sure, the punishment too. Every educated person might take the easiest way if they know, the law is soft.
    Example : Educated people will tend to corrupt because they know better steal 10 billion rupiah and jailed for 5 years than stealing motorcycle worth 10 million rupiah with the same punishment. 10 billion/5 years = 2 billion/year = 166 million rupiah/month, compared to motorcycle?
    When its time to get out from jail, there’s 10 billion rupiah waiting.
    That was educated people thought.
    They dont fear the laws
    But if the law is hardened, they will think thousand times…

  16. avatar Fanglong says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 4:55 pm

    In addition to what Tom rightly says (Dec 16, 1:22 pm), would an independent Acheh governement use this kind of untimely law ? Let’s fear worse than conceivable ! The wicked practices of a second police corps over the first one’s ? Pity, Lord, pity on us !

  17. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 5:34 pm

    Pity only for thieves.
    Good people arent.

  18. avatar Tomaculum says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 7:39 pm

    1ndra:

    Zakat is only for Muslim because zakat only applied for Muslim. Non Muslim may donate freely (It’s not zakat but sedekah/sumbangan). Zakat from corruptor unacceptable, because it’s a haram money.

    First thanks again for the affirmations. So the money is the same, but the definition is different.
    What about the corruptors and the corruptibles? Directly or indirectly they steal money, aren’t they? According to the law has every punished corruptor and corruptibles to be automatically hand amputated, don’t they?

    Back to rich Moslems who don’t do zakat. Isn’t zakat the right of the poor people (because zakat is prescribed and who is able but don’t do it is a sinner, as you said)?
    So these peoples are also thieves, if they deain the right of others, aren’t they? Hand away?

    Educated people will tend to corrupt because they know better steal 10 billion rupiah and jailed for 5 years than stealing motorcycle worth 10 million rupiah with the same punishment. 10 billion/5 years = 2 billion/year = 166 million rupiah/month, compared to motorcycle?
    When its time to get out from jail, there’s 10 billion rupiah waiting.
    That was educated people thought.

    Are you sure, that only educated people think like that? Is corruption and corruptability depend on education? Not a question of conscience with strategy as tools? What is education? School visit or religious study or something else?

  19. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 17th, 2006 at 10:39 pm

    1. Hand amputation? No, death sentence is better. Because they steal in larger number, take away what people needs, make starvation grow larger and much much more…those people need to be executed.

    2. Education in stealing…educated thieves means they could think and plan how to steal more (Corrupt) but punished less (Bribe here…bribe there), uneducated people tend to steal and rob directly.
    That was my only view, correct me if I’m wrong.

  20. avatar Ihaknt says:
    December 18th, 2006 at 5:06 am

    Educated people will tend to corrupt because they know better steal 10 billion rupiah and jailed for 5 years than stealing motorcycle worth 10 million rupiah with the same punishment. 10 billion/5 years = 2 billion/year = 166 million rupiah/month, compared to motorcycle?
    When its time to get out from jail, there’s 10 billion rupiah waiting.
    That was educated people thought.

    Education in stealing”¦educated thieves means they could think and plan how to steal more (Corrupt) but punished less (Bribe here”¦bribe there), uneducated people tend to steal and rob directly.

    What? huh? What? Is it just me or does anyone else think that this logic is hard to follow? Actually, is that even logic at all?

    1ndra, is this just your analogy/thought or is it another ‘experience’ your friends/neighbour did?

    The education is not just needed for the major of “stealing”. We are talking education as a whole, what’s right and wrong, being able to think for oneself, etc.

    If the education is about stealing then yes some opportunist will actually learn the loopholes and get around it.

    Hehehe, this gets me thinking how many credit you need to be able to pass the subject.

    The death sentence…well it’s a bit harsh if it’s done for stealing. But if the alleged person’s wrong doing merugikan lots of people or even the whole community then, yeah, maybe after a ‘fair’ trial then he/she can be sentenced to death.

    Many are not give the death sentence, but the people who are dirugikan, whether it is the company he/she steals from, the society where he/she lives, would make sure that he/she is not going to have an easy life. Many even commit suicide due to the pressure and shame. Don’t you think it’s a harsher punishment, to let one dwell in their guilt or shame and then go crazy and kill themselves? I’d choose psychological punishment over death sentence.

  21. avatar Bradlymail says:
    December 18th, 2006 at 8:48 am

    What about the corruptors ?

  22. avatar Dimp says:
    December 18th, 2006 at 4:46 pm

    The only way corruption is through education, at the moment Indonesian has no sense of communal feeling, there is no sense of public property.

    Just look at the vandalism, they don’t care as they think “Hey, this is not mine, I can destory this and I won’t have to pay for this”.

    People stealing from the government, they just don’t care.

  23. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 18th, 2006 at 5:36 pm

    Ihaknt: It’s my personal view.
    Educated people get better job so he had access in many ‘wet’ area, educated people have better logical (Not short minded), educated people could make a strategy for stealing. That’s called corruption.
    Dont you see, why corruptors are harder and almost impossible to be caught?

    And what separated between educated people?
    Morale. That makes the one to be a corruptor but not the other.

  24. avatar Ihaknt says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 5:10 am

    1ndra, exactly! That’s why i mentioned, education as a whole, what’s right and wrong, etc. “Soft” education also starts at home not just at schools. What i mean by soft is the intangible things. Parents need punish children if they behave badly.

    Anyway, it is difficult if the ‘thieves’ are the people on the highest position AKA the government. Does that mean we will have limbless people in the government? They definitely “steal” from people. And their kids, if they study overseas, OMG, of course not all of them are bad, but some are just arrogant pri*ks and lazy, and just spend mum and dad’s money, or should I say the tax payers’ money.

  25. avatar Tomaculum says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 12:46 pm

    The problem is with many Indonesian, that the border beetwen anger and hate (read self rightousness and self justice) is very blurred.

    A catched egg thief is often lynched to death.

    To my opinion such punishment can increase the tendency to vigilante justice (or this is a kind of vigilante justice).

  26. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 1:00 pm

    For those who consider this form of punishment as justice please watch this video, this is Sharia law in action:

    Sharia Amputation. Warning contains scenes of extreme cruelty!

    Is this humane? Is this the behaviour of civilised people? As I said earlier, reinterpretation of the verses in Al Quran is long overdue.

  27. avatar Ihaknt says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 1:29 pm

    Iew MK, where did you get it from? I havent seen it and WILL NOT want to see it. I personally dont need to be reminded that this kind of punishment is barbaric and so passe. I am guessing that anasthetic was not used either. OUCH! what did he steal? Was it something very petty?

    More questions, would this kind of punishment apply to a person whose crime has been proven? Because, what if the person is actually innocent?

  28. avatar 1ndra says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 2:56 pm

    Mohammed Khafi: Tell that to the barbaric thieves…who hurt and even kill their victims…no civilized laws applied for non-civilized thieves.

    Ihaknt:

    Sure, they need to be proved, no one jailed for nothing.

    Ok, I added a soften law opinion.
    The thief given a chance to return all of his steals to his victims, regret and swore by The God no to do that again (Taubat), then the hand amputation may be canceled and he got jailed only (This is NOT applied for barbaric thieves who hurt/kill their victims).
    That was the first and the last chance, if he broke the ‘Taubat’, then the amputation applied.

  29. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 3:54 pm

    1ndra,

    Sometimes I wonder if we have the same God, mine stands for compassion and mercy, just what does yours stand for?

    When it is possible to have a compassionate, merciful and just interpretation of the verses which you say call for amputation, why do you still insist on this barbarity?

    I will include the link again for a civilised, thoughtful interpretation of the relevant verses QURANIC PUNISHMENT FOR THEFT.

    If you can fault the arguments put forward there please let us know.

  30. avatar Fanglong says:
    December 19th, 2006 at 4:37 pm

    Hi M. Kh. !

    I quickly read the above link : what a relief & fresh air !

    I’m going to read more. Thanx for the link.

    A good day to all !

Pages: [1] 2 3 »



Your view on “Hand Amputation” :


RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-14
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact