Muazzez Ilmiye Cig

Nov 1st, 2006, in IM Posts, by

Indonesians may have the right to say "wer'e not as bad as Turkey", if the case of Muazzez Ilmiye Cig is anything to go on.

While the blasphemy laws in Indonesia claim their fair share of victims, such as Yusman Roy and Lia Eden, 92 year old academics who make scholarly comments on the origins of the headscarf, or jilbab, are likely to be safe, assuming any such people exist in Indonesia. They are not so in Turkey.

The Australian reports: [1]

An eminent 92-year-old Turkish archaeologist is to go on trial for inciting religious hatred because she angered Islamist circles with a scientific paper saying that the use of headscarves by women dated back to pre-Islamic sexual rites.

Muazzez Ilmiye Cig
Muazzez Ilmiye Cig, a danger to Turkish society.

Muazzez Ilmiye Cig, who has made a lifelong study of ancient Sumerian civilisation, suggests in a book published last year that the headscarf may have been first used by Sumerian temple priestesses whose job it was to initiate young men into the world of sex, directly.

A lawyer in the city of Izmir took offence and filed a complaint against Cig, resulting in a prosecutor charging both her and her publisher with "inciting hatred based on religious differences". It seems that the thing which offends most is the suggestion that the hijab, and the sexualising of head hair, pre-dates the time of Mohammed, is a pagan practice, and has little to do with Islam.

Muazzez Ilmiye Cig is well-known in Turkey as a strong defender of secularism and has on occasion even criticised Emine Erdogan, the wife of Turkey's Islamist prime minister, for wearing the head-scarf in public.

Muazzez Ilmiye Cig goes on trial today and faces three years in prison if convicted. In Indonesia it would be five.

November 2nd

The courts viewed the prosecution dimly and both Cig and her publisher were acquitted after a one hour trial. [2]


48 Comments on “Muazzez Ilmiye Cig”

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  1. avatar Riccardo says:
    November 1st, 2006 at 9:34 am

    The cultists know that their “belief” system is a big fairy tale, so they impose laws on people to refrain from studying, delving, thinking, researching to find the truth. And if you do find some truth you will be punished by the cultist government.

    So now we know for sure, the jilbab is part of a pagan sexual ritual and thus should never be worn by anyone except sex slaves.

  2. avatar budi says:
    November 1st, 2006 at 11:34 am

    So now we know for sure, the jilbab is part of a pagan sexual ritual and thus should never be worn by anyone except sex slaves.

    really?! kewel!!

  3. avatar Ismail says:
    November 1st, 2006 at 4:39 pm

    I have said it too many times, Islam is satanic and so it’s all its practice. its make unrightiousness and sin looks pious and acceptable. i wish the world could wakeup from this madness and slumber. its really sad. by the way Riccado that was an excellent remark.

  4. avatar Tomaculum says:
    November 1st, 2006 at 4:46 pm

    A turkish descendant congresswoman in Germany, who request turkish women living in Germany not to wear headscarf anymore, is threated on her life by anonymous Islam groups.
    Beside my opinion, that headscarf is the least problem in the conflict between Islam and Christianity (if at all!), is such anonymous threat a cowardice demolishing the call of Islam.
    If the women have a strong faith and they wear the headscarf as a result of their conviction, they most likely will not be affected by such calls. If not, they are anyway lost, aren’t they?
    The question: why do some Moslems afraid of such agitations or positions? Maybe they should face such things with more souvereignity to earn more understanding and respect, instead pulling down the name of Islam deeper and deeper in the darkness of misunderstanding, fear and hate.

  5. avatar Motz says:
    November 3rd, 2006 at 1:59 am

    What good is it if you wear headscarf if you still lie, steal and kill?

  6. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 6th, 2006 at 9:30 am

    Hello to you all.
    Well, Islam like most religions is a mix of old, older and newer believes all put together.

    If you would study the Islam, let say, you will find very easy, that when first written koran came about, about 200 years after the prophets death, which makes very interesting thing, which words did he really said, and which words are his, in koran or around the Islamic countries. Compare the ayatollahs or mullahs teaching and try to connect it to the koran. Good luck..

    The Turkish lady is a scholar, and she have right to her own opinion on the subject she is studying. That is why we are having scholars. Why Islam can not accept this if it has philosophical superiority over other “religions”? Who said Islam is religion in the first place. Only inferior people think of supremacy over other people, so here you know the real truth about Islamic supremacy.

    It is true that women in Arabic, nomadic and beduin cultures have been sex slaves, the harems are the aftershocks of their existence. And what harems were if not the sex slave dorms of enslaved women? Why deny and lie? Same case was in the pagan cultures, except pagans didn’t had harems. The sex business was not developed in 20th century in central Europa. The sex business is as old as the human history. I do not understand why Islam wants to take credit for creating the sacral or holly sex. They just evolved around it like other cultures around them.

    What else Islam manipulators can do to try to control masses of uneducated MUSLIMS? Sacral sex or the “holly sex” as it was properly called when it was in official use in those times. There always were in pre-Islamic Arab countries the girls given the temple sexual services. Then when a girl got pregnant some children born out of the temple sacral sex service were treated like “gods” because of the temple “conception by gods” and temple “birth”, blaaa, blaa, bla.

    The uneducated girl was placed in the sex service in the temple, they put the scarf on her face, she got pregnant by “god” because it happen at the temple, and here we go, we’ve got new mahdi, Allah or new beduin leader like Mohammed, or whatever on the horizon. It is little to complicated for this discussion, but certainly is very interesting topic to touch on.

    That the whole thing, is keep MUSLIMS uneducated and stupid, then it will be easier to manipulate and to control them. Look at Palestinian MUSLIMS. They are meat for Islamic meat grinder of other Islamic countries.

    No different than communism. Look at N Korea. Ill Kim the 2nd has the biggest porn gallery and sex slavery in the world today. Same was with Saddam sons and Saddam him self, etc..

    Show me the difference between Islam and communism

  7. avatar Hassan says:
    November 7th, 2006 at 9:02 pm

    who’s this Muazzez Ilmiye Cig character anyway? she doesn’t strike me as someone who have any credibility. have anyone ever heard of her name, let alone her works before? just because she said those things doesn’t mean that it was the truth, my ignorant friends (Riccardo and Ismail).

    if a Christian hater said that Jesus is dead and will never return, would you instantly believe that? I guess not. for all i care this Muazzez chick is just a another one of bigots like you two wiseguys.

    Ismail: yes, you had said those things waaaay to many times (creating boredom to whoever had listened to you), unfortunately your words were not the truth, and outright lies.

    maybe the world will never wake up as you mentioned. maybe because they had already woken up when they found the truth in Islam. if hateful people like you and Riccardo are having nightmares because of Islam, maybe it’s because peace will always defeat hate. Islam will continue to grow, hence prolonging the nightmares of people like you.

    Riccardo: you have yet to answer my previous question: why is that “the cultist”‘s religion is currently spreading rapidly accross the globe, outgrowing your own precious religion? despite of haters like you keep spewing poisons from your tongues, Islam will continue to flourish. too bad for you, whatever you said wont matter it the end.

    czeslaw: as a lifelong Muslim I had never heard of anything remotely resembling what you spoke about. maybe you’re talking about something else, huh? or maybe you’ve been reading too much of the da vinci code, and then tried to relate it to Islam.

  8. avatar Riccardo says:
    November 7th, 2006 at 10:40 pm

    Hassan, the cult of iSlam is not spreading, it will be dead soon, your mates die by the hundreds everyday by American and Joooo bombs and bullets — and also in Sudan (Darfur) where the world just says “ho hum” at you dumb muzzies as you kill thousands of other muzzies. BUt your terrorist imams and clerics lie to you and you believe them when they tell you it’s growing.

    Seriously Hassan, I am not trying to be rude, but are you so blind that you cannot see? Are you so deaf that you cannot hear? Are you so illiterate that you cannot read? How can you defend the scum of the world? It’s exactly the same as defending disease-infested rats or vile cockroaches or malarial mosquitoes.

  9. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 8th, 2006 at 5:09 am

    Hassan, you said: who’s this Muazzez Ilmiye Cig character anyway? she doesn’t strike me as someone who have any credibility.

    Mr. Hassan, as I replied to your poorly ordered mind on the other link here,
    read a book or two, then say a word or two.

    Mrs. Muazzez is a scholar lady, that is why people like her do not make Islamc grades.

    Hassan, no one is ever to old to go to school. There is a lot of hope in your life, just do not give up on it. Educate your self and your children and family.

    Join the pack of today, not a stone age system. Bronze age ended as well…

    Even jihadists exchanged their Islamic bronze age packet knives for western automatic rifles. The Islamic jihadists exchanged their flying magic carpets for the western evil Jumbo Jets to fly to their next terror camp meetings. Didn’t you noticed it, yet? It was on Al-Jazeera TV!

    Above Riccardo, is right as well. I do not know the guy, but this is not important. He is just right on the money. Why any one would lie, except to keep brain washing people like you, Hassan.

    Ismail is not boring, nor Riccardo. Hassan, before your brain will petrify in the stone age system, you will not give your family or your self a chance, to prove that you are right.

  10. avatar Hassan says:
    November 8th, 2006 at 10:46 am

    Riccardo: i never talked to any imams and clerics in those places you mentioned. i based my statement that Islam is growing on ongoing demographic studies all over the world.

    Riccardo, maybe it’s you who “are you so blind that you cannot see? so deaf that you cannot hear? so illiterate that you cannot read?”

    they say the truth has many facets, maybe you were seeing it from a wrong angle?

    for me Riccardo, bigots, racist and facist like you are the “scum of the world”, and not some God-fearing people.

    czeslaw: spare the uneducated stereotyping, i might have a higher scholastic degree than you do. for all i know you might be some highschool graduate, because you sure talk like one. you reminded me of some highschool bully trying to sound smart over the internet, inciting hate towards other people’s faith.

    honestly, have you ever heard of this Muazzez Ilmiye Cig chick? I bet you haven’t. but even if you did, it wont matter. just because some bigoted scholar says a certain religion is bad doesnt meant it’s the truth, that’s just old news.

    a lot of western scholars had published materials that smeared the Christian faith, that had been going on for ages. heck, admit it, most western scientists don’t even belief in the Christian god! tell me, wasn’t that not the truth??

    yes czeslaw, you, Riccardo and Ismail are not boring, you guys are just some bigots with a self righteous fascistic tendencies.

  11. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 8th, 2006 at 12:27 pm

    Hassan,
    I am sure, that you didn’t talk to any imams, ayatollahs or mullahs about Islam spreading all over the world. There are two options here for your explanations:

    1. You went out on your own, walked around that little globe of ours, and you just simply count the heads of Islam here and there. Or,

    2. You’ve got from UN epidemic newsletter about disease spreading out of control. (I do mean those Muslim/Islamists who are degrading this already abused, beaten up and damaged organizations). Yeah, history repeats it self.

    - When Mohamed was banned from Mecca, his bushwhackers with him spread the new “religion” like a fire across the country (Today’s Saudi Arabia). Did the sand got on fire or what?

    - Today perverts, murderers, and Islamic terrorist are doing this same. They are burning desert sand. They pulled to their own dismay and doom, and Islamic holocaust other Islam and Muslim people, to hide behind women and children backs.

    That prove that this pukes are chicken sh….t?

    - zarqawi, what he did when he was attacked and encircled by Iraqis, after US drop a bomb on his sh*t hole? he tried to run away, instead of repeating his brave acts from his hollywood-al jazeera propaganda videos crops, how brave he was.

    after he saw few Iraqis solders with rifles, he got scared like hell, he just squeezed his tail between his legs, then cropped his pants, so Iraqis solders had to wear a gas masks, when they arrested him. He just simply stunk and croped dead of his own fumes. Yeah zarqawi, blood is brown….

    - saddam is similar story. When he faced a real solders, not Iraqis women and children he was shooting, what this brave “Muslim jihads” did? Saddam run for cover as zarqawi did, except, saddam did a dive in the septic pool and hide there. The rest is the history, we all saw all the pictures when Iraqis solder took this “freedom fighter” out of the piss hole he was hiding in.

    - the third national/religious hero Osama is more lucky, because American politicians are screwheads. who can prove me wrong here, please! First Billy, was to busy receiving “oral sex” services from Monica and bunch of others, so he enjoyed him self for 8 years, and forgot of Osama. Also I heard, king was sending some $$$ to Billy to keep him busy with the whor……s.

    -then Americans got stuck with George, the Younger. AT least he tried at the beginning, then the elections, then some other problems took his attention from Osama to some haliburton deals. George is a businessman, not a pimp like Billy is. So he went after the money.

    So, Osama was spared for now, and is hiding like most successful “Islamic/Muslim” jihad leaders, somewhere in the NW Pakistan mountain – watching Playboy channel and reading koran having a Bud Light in tin cans, while commercials are on.

    Well, in short this is the “leadership of Islam” today.

    Damn it, is there any, I mean any Islamic, true Muslim who can get the Islam out of this terrible dump?

    Or, is not worth it? ;-((

    Hassan, seeing your style and writings in your postings, I do not have to worry, that you red a book, and are better educated than me or some other people on this blog. Yeah, you may red a sura or two from koran, like your attorney general Saleh. So, it seems like both of your graduated from same “law” institution. Yeah, I know, that is scary to some other Indonesian people, but what can anyone do about it?

  12. avatar Hassan says:
    November 8th, 2006 at 8:23 pm

    what the heck are these bigots thinking anyway, calling other people’s faith as backwards. lets look ahead to the modern era of science, hey i remembered, most of their own scientists don’t even belief in their religion’s version of God!

    ———-

    czeslaw: i thought i told you to spare me the “undeducated” stereotype. czeslaw, for your education, Indonesia is a secular country, so most of my countrymen and myself had been exposed to modern science and almost every knowledge there is, except the Quran and Hadith (unfortunately). that sort of knowledge is reserved to be studied in madrassahs only. i myself is a product of the national secular education. so stop you stereotyping rantings, you’re only mocking yourself out of ignorance.

    you czeslaw, seemed to not have even a kindergartener’s degree for a self proclaimed “scholar”. I bet you studied in the Great University of Facism and Biggotry, but that doesn’t count much, now does it??

    about the top half of your comment, i’m sorry to say that i skipped it. i’m not really a big fan of kindergartener’s fantasies and bedtime stories. but i can say that maybe this will come as a surprise to you, that this “uneducated” Indonesian can make a good use of the internet to get my facts about Islam’s rapid growth. words from a fascist like you meant nothing to me, or anyone else for that matter.

    did you know that facism is not the hype these days. your role model adolf and benito died looong ago.

    czeslaw, you can’t fool a 5 year old with your rantings, mr. expert scholar. go educate yourself in the topic of “respect”. you doesn’t seem to know about it, nor have any of it..

    and i wont give any respect to a person who don’t have any.

  13. avatar Linda says:
    November 19th, 2006 at 9:31 am

    This is from the TurkishPress.com

    The Victory Of Science, Scholarship And Muazzez Ilmiye Cig
    Published: 11/4/2006

    BY DOGAN HIZLAN
    HURRIYET- I think you all watched the news on the trial against science and scholarship with your mouths hanging open. Archeologist Muazzez Ilmiye Cig, whose books we all read, was charged for his scholarly, scientific findings. Cig is 93 years old, but still has a brilliant creative mind. As I learned that she started to learn how to use a computer when she was 85, I realized that technology can only be accepted with a mind as young like hers. I think trials like this give Turkey a terrible image. In other countries Cig would be hailed at awards ceremonies instead of facing charges. We should thank the public prosecutor and the judge who acquitted her. History will remembered them as jurists with respect for science and scholarship.

    What was the trial for? In her book ‘My Reactions as a Citizen,’ Cig wrote letters to people in various fields. She explained her thoughts about recent developments in society from a republican viewpoint. She wrote about many things, from language to headscarves. In addition to ‘My Reactions as a Citizen,’ she also wrote ‘The Babylonian Roots of the Koran, the Bible and the Torah,’ among other books. I wish no intellectual would ever face such trials, no matter their views. This is about the expression of views based on science and scholarship. The support of those who came to the court was very important, because she needed it. I hope Cig will be able to write more books and her spirit won`t be broken.

    So read this Hassan! Never heard of her? Then you are just proclaiming your ignorance.

  14. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 20th, 2006 at 3:11 am

    Linda, that is the point, and I am glad you brought it that way.

    It is true, that all three Judeism, Christianity and Islam believes came from same region, The Babylon-Persia.

    I am pundering this and other religions for last 12 years. And what you wrote here holds the truth in 100%.

    In that Babylon-Persia western region of it, Abram left to set up the Israel country.
    Around same time, Zoroaster came along preaching faith in monoistic God, and majoroity what Jews and Christians and Muslims believe today. It can not be denied, even if Islam will keep chopping heads off of infidels, for that reasons as thery do.

    Till today the Farzi-Persian opperssed people hate Islam. I am not tlaking about those who trun Iranian-Islam way. Persia never was silamic state and never will according to my friends I know from Persia.

    At present situation in Persia, it will be a bloodshed to get rid of this Islamic psychopath in Teheran. Maybe miracle will save the day?

    Look back to Mahatma Ghandi who ended Brits occupation of India.
    and the Pope John Paul the II and Ronald Reagan? No major bloodshad, communist colaped beyond repair!

    I hope it will end simiar way in Persia.

    But, returning to this blog, I do not care what Islamists are saying and doing to deform the truth, I take my hat of to Mrs Cig, and that is my bottom line!

  15. avatar Ismail says:
    November 20th, 2006 at 11:37 pm

    Hassan,Islam is a backward hateful religion oh i forgot to add that is satanic and the Quran is a bunch-bundled non sense, I guess you can see this cause you mind is stuck in the 7th century with the pedophile prophet and his hate mongering.

    this things are not hard fact they are quite easy to see, what baffles me people, is that people like Hassan can read and write, and he does it quite well and he still can’t see what almost everyone is now seeing Islam is a certainly mind bending.

    let me share simple fact please allow me to mention just a few because can go on and on…..

    1, in Islam and the Quran women have half brain therefore you where a man can testify you will need two women

    2, a man can marry 4 wives, oh but its wrong for a woman to marry for men such equality is mind bungling oh by the Jesus said this is a sin he even said if anyones looks at another woman lustfully that is already adulty

    3, its ok for man to sleep with slave girls cause according to the Quran ” your right hand possess it”

    4, men can beat there wives commentators say lately but the Quran did not qualify it. yes another proof of gender equality Islam style

    5, Mohammed said majority of hell residence are Muslim women because they have low intelligent and the are disobedient to there husband.

    if Hassan say i got this things wrong, then I am afraid his Islam is from planet mars.
    Islam is a big sad JOKE.

  16. avatar Tomaculum says:
    November 21st, 2006 at 12:08 am

    God/Allah/Manitou/Brahma/Shiva/Zeus/Jahwe/etc/etc gave us brain to think, to comtemplate, to weigh, to try to understand, to feel (more?).
    If one just read his/her words and follow it blindly, she/he would laugh his/her sh*t out.
    If he really tell us that the “others” are bad (remember: one God! So why should he/she malign his/her own “ambassadors” (we call prophets)?), then be sure there is something behind this (or are these just dull interpretations of human being with hatred nebulizing his mind?). Be nice, calm and a little bit clever: think!
    But those named above give us also competency to hate, to malign, to kill, to be evil etc,etc.
    Some where I read: God create human as his/her image.
    Missed creation or …… ?
    Look around, read the comments.

  17. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 21st, 2006 at 12:45 pm

    Ismail,

    any mind can judge to the own level of knowlege, understunding and comprehansion.

    I wonder, why the majority of Muslim males are so limited in their thinking that females are of less inteligence. Where they got this false idea?

    This Islamic thinking didn’t evolve byond the bronze age, where Muslims are sunk in it…

    Koran is limiting the process of mind, which is God given to all man kind. However, the man is using it on own chosen level, and by his own limits of use, is limiting other human, in this case, Muslim man feels important by degrading Muslims female.

    This males “superiority” feeling, hinders Muslims from their own self development, self appreciation, self love, and advancement to a better life. Most Muslim action is based on overpowering other person, force of some sort. Most things are forced on some on else by Muslims. That show truly poor self esteem, or lack of it at all.

    Woman by nature are smart, intelligent and learn faster than male counterparts. This fact is a salt in Muslim eye.

  18. avatar Leyla says:
    November 21st, 2006 at 4:40 pm

    She is very old, which means her brain cells are not working that well. Just an opinion. :)

  19. avatar Philly mcfadden says:
    November 22nd, 2006 at 12:43 am

    Leyla, I personaly know a 92 years sweet old lady in my church who still have a very bright mind. So, I think you make a wrong opinion! God Bless You!

  20. avatar Tomaculum says:
    November 22nd, 2006 at 1:12 am

    I’m sure Mrs. Cig has more working brains than some others. And she has surely more capacity than these persons to discuss something objectively and in civilised way.

  21. avatar Philly Mcfadden says:
    November 22nd, 2006 at 8:26 pm

    This is awesome…. “Kansas woman, 95, prepares for final exams” http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_on_fe_st/lifelong_learner.

  22. avatar Leyla says:
    November 23rd, 2006 at 2:55 am

    Well maybe we should get all these 90+ year olds together to live in their own world. Because in reality things like Muazzez Ilmiye Cig’s theories dont count. Her ideas have no evidence. Its all in her imaginary world. Besides her “theories” show no respect to the facts of a religion which millions follow. I think it shouldnt be that easy to throw dirty on any religion.

    It would be saying something like “Women that read the bible out loud were actually hookers back in those days”.

    —-

    Woaa i read some of the early comment in this post. Thats just sick minded to talk about ANY religion as Riccardo and similar posters. No religion preaches hate. And I think people that talk about religion as so, have weak ethics in moral.

  23. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 23rd, 2006 at 7:48 am

    Leyla, a pesimist will say, “… I see glass half empty…”
    a positive mind will say, “…I see glass half full..”

    Leyla, how was your childhood?

  24. avatar Tomaculum says:
    November 23rd, 2006 at 12:18 pm

    Leyla,
    but maybe your arguments exist just in your imaginary world?
    How do you know, that her ideas have no evidence? Please, explain your argument so I can understand it. Maybe you’re right, to question a theorie is – in my opinion – always good, but to challenge someone’s work on the basic of his/her age? Isn’t it also a “weak ethics in moral”?
    And: if you ever read her work calmly, you will find out, that she doesn’t intend to throw dirt on any religion.
    And if you reach the age of 40, I wish you a half of capacity to work like her.

  25. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 23rd, 2006 at 1:18 pm

    Tomaculum, I wouldn’t say it better my self!

  26. avatar Ismail says:
    November 24th, 2006 at 5:32 am

    Leyla, I guess I am in “similar poster” with riccado, off course, Islam preach hate, just look at this weeks news alone don’t need to go too far.

    I guess I need to share some of the things jihadist say, so you can explain it to the rest of us. this is needful because everytime I ask Muslims about it, they either invoke some Islamic histroy that justify the hate or they call me names and bigot is perhaps the most popular, I guess recently, I have been called racist cause I guess you can say Islam is a race in a way.

    here goes……

    qoute from (yusuf ali) by the way the verse before/ after so as not to cherry-pick.
    for unbeliever
    sura 8-12

    Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

    Please Muslims that want to argue that this was during war please be aware that that sura 8 is called Al-Anfâl that is the Spoils of War (booty), it was revealed after the war of badr, so please look for a better defence.

    for a woman that was accused of lewdness
    sura 4:15

    If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

    This instruction in case you miss it, state the women so accused is sentenced to death by starvation in a house until she dies, please before you argue please ask your imam if the woman is to be feed or not.
    About a non voilent Muslims, I have said that is an oxymoron and this what Qurans,
    sura 4:77

    Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as – or even more than – they should have feared Allah: They said: “Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?” Say: “Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!

    What about a Muslim apostate(left Islam) let hear what the Quran says
    sura 4:89

    They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades(leaves Islam), seize them and slay(kill) them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

    what about what the Quran recomend for Christian and Jews.
    sura 5:51

    O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
    please note this is Allah’s instructions.

    I guess I don’t want this to be too long, I just want Muslims to go study Islam carefully before defending this 7th century barbaric backward cult, they need to go study it a bit more, cause in my book, it’s a shame to humanity.

  27. avatar Leyla says:
    November 24th, 2006 at 3:33 pm

    Hahaha geee, how many of you actually READ her books? Everything she writes is a theory! Not facts. Perhaps you guys should read her books! hahaha

    So you can say “Yes I agree, I (THINK) her theory is correct” or you can say “No I don’t agree, I (THINK) its BS”. None of us can say Yea that’s how it was back then.

    :)

  28. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 25th, 2006 at 3:39 am

    Leyla, may be you shall try to read one of her books, and let us know your thoughts?

    ——–

    Ismail, good job with your post.

    Well, but just this will not solve the killing/murder problem.

    You can read/study other religions and you will not find these types of promotions of death, as you will find in koran. I studied native American both north and south people, I studied Islanders of pacific, including from Papua, to Hawaii to New Zealand.

    In some of these pacific islands, they had believes that if you killed and ate your enemy, you will posses their powers. But nothing was written to promote this type of religious believes. With the civilization so to speak, reaching these islands, these believe have changed. I wonder why nothing can reach sealed Islamic mind? What is the blood and death of others and own mUSLIMS that makes them orgasmic happines? I have seen pictures of poor Palestinians who just killed a Jew. Palestinians torn his guts, heart, longs out, and were having orgasms with playing with these human guts. These poor Palestinians performed better with their organic mimics, than US super porn stars!

    Why is Islam fixed and closed on this type of behavior?
    Is it normal, that mUSLIMS father is bringing to his own son or daughter a fresh cut off and bleeding head as a ramadan gift? DO they put that bleeding head on the table while they have lunch or supper?

    Any Muslim, please let me understand your religious point of view on these issues. I would greatly appreciate you assistance in helping me, to understand Islam better than I do now.

    Here is the problem I see with it. From what I red and studied about the koran, I do not believe that Islam’s “prophet” Mohamed wrote it at all. So, these murders happening right now, can hardly be attributed to him. Yes, these murder can and shall be attributed to the koran, but not to Mr Mohamed.

    Koran came along similar way as Das Kapital was “created”. One person started, others added own thinking to it, years and years later. In the case of koran, from what I found out, there was not much recorded during Mr Mohamed’s life. So, in my thinking and my conclusion koran is a one big pot to which contents were dropped in as centuries went by. Not much can be proved, which are original words of Mr Mohamed, and which were added as we go, so to speak.

    All, that is important, that the murders in the name of “Allah” stop today. All, that is important, that the murders in the name of any god stop today. We have already enough murders for other reasons. Religion shall not be the reason to kill one more person.

    The way Islam is promoting the religion of doomsday, hate, and brainwashing, there is no hope for peace during our life time. And this is sad, but Islam will continue beheading people all around, including its own followers, who will not fit some imaginary suni / shi’ia line of hate.

    If Muslim are spreading this type of hate and murders toward each other, how can they spread love and peace toward others in this same time?

    Would any one believe a person who is talking of love and peace, and at this same time seeing that this person is holding in his hand freshly cut head off, which still keep dripping blood?

    Is Islam creating a Zombie religion virtual reality?

    ——-

    Mrs. Cig, I am voting for you!!!

    You are a great lady, in my book.

  29. avatar Ismail says:
    November 25th, 2006 at 2:46 pm

    Czeslaw, I listened to a debate between a Muslim and a Christian apologist and it’s mind blowing, the way Muslims reason, after a nice (but wrong asertions) presentation by the learned Muslim, he then went to his site and claimed he defeated the Christian, I had to laugh. what amazing is that they all do it, they just suddenly claim victory and start gloating. Hassan kept saying that he has proven me wrong and therefore I am worth listening to.

    I can see now that it’s a Muslim thing, recently Hamas is claiming vicotry and Hisbullah too after hiding behind their own citizens, killing them in the process and having a casualty and billions worth of damages, they still claimed victory.

    There is desperation in the air about this guys. You can imagine the bali bomber he claimed victory too. They all do. Watch out osama will soon claim victory. What I have noticed is that some Muslims are beginning to see through the sham, they can only harm there religion of hate the more.

  30. avatar Czeslaw says:
    November 26th, 2006 at 9:26 am

    Ismail, it is hard position to all of us. I am truly saddened by the fact that Muslims are committing mass murders among themselves. Just look what is happening in Iraq and at Darfur right now.

    I am heart broken to seen now Muslims are during other Muslims alive in Iraq, just to make a point across. In Europe they stopped burning people at stake, in medieval ages, even though, they had more or less primitive view on a lots of thing.

    It seems, that Islam is now crawling backwards in time by reinstating during people alive. In mid ages Muslims fried in boiling oils people alive in Spain and Italy. I can not believe on the direction Muslims are heading these days.

    Are there any Muslim who see what is happening with their religion?

    Ismael, it doesn’t matter if this is a Indonesian, Iraqi, Jews, Pole, German, Hindu, Peruvian, Brazilian, etc.. It is still a human being to all of us.

    Live is the most secret gift given to us. How but Creator have the right to call it!

    Are Muslim turning to Allahs?

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