Terrorism, Poverty & Islam

October 6th, 2006, in Opinion, by Patung

Poverty is the cause of terrorism, says a former Muhammadiyah chairman, not Islam.

Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif, former Muhammadiyah chairman, speaking at an interfaith gathering, the “Simposium Antarbudaya dan Antaragama”, held under the auspices of APEC, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation group, or Organisasi Kerjasama Ekonomi Asia Pasifik, in Yogyakarta on the 5th said that terrorism, in all its forms, is an enemy of all countries in the world, not just America, and that the roots of it could be found in poverty. Therefore to combat it he advised poverty reduction programs, and also corruption reduction because corruption contributed to the woes of the poor.

Since the 9/11 attacks on America many people in the world associated terrorism with Islam. These people were mentally defective, he said, because a reading of Islam’s holy book, the Quran, would reveal that Islam was a benevolent force:

Only those who have an abnormal outlook could come to a conclusion like that. In a verse of the holy Koran it is said that one who kills a single human being kills all of mankind.

It is not reported whether he then quoted any other, less pleasing sounding, verses from the Quran.

He went on to say that these days there was a perception that terrorist or extremist ideology was spreading rapidly and easily among Indonesians. Among the poor, he said, the simplistic ideas of the radicals found fertile ground.

It is also uncertain whether he produced any research or proof for the claim that terrorism is linked to poverty. More and better jobs, better education, the owning of more television sets and luxuries seems to be Maarif’s solution to the problem. (Antara & Media Indonesia.) There is substantial evidence to say he is quite wrong however.

Maarif likely suffers from the platitude-without-thought syndrome that frequently affects Indonesian intellectuals. Most terrorists in fact come from middle class, educated backgrounds (science and engineering usually) and they are people who see their world, their traditions, their power over women and other men, crumbling around them under the force of western cultural imperialism and globalisation, people who also view the west’s power and arrogance as an insult to God. Islamic terrorism is more a sign that Islam, in its traditional forms, is dying, it is a fight against this death, a fight against those who are seen as bringing it about. Poverty is a minor causative factor, the poor have enough worries with their daily struggles, religious fanaticism does not affect them nearly as much as it does the middle classes.

If poverty is not to blame, and we see that there are other cultures in the world which are also being destroyed by globalisation, but whose people do not have the same tendency to violent resistance as Muslims do then we are left to return to Islam itself. Islam is what Islam does, and there is no “true Islam“, which is impossible by itself but is compounded by the fact that Islam has no central authority, any man may be the “one who stands in front”, or imam. Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif, who no doubt is kind to small animals and children, is a true Muslim. But so is Osama Bin Laden, so are the head-choppers in Iraq. Those who quote “there is no compulsion in religion” and those who quote “smite at their necks” are both true Muslims. Islam is so problematic in the world because it allows for such widely variant interpretations, and there is no way of establishing one over the other, except perhaps by massive force and repression.

In particular Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif is averting his eyes from the concept of jihad and its connection to terrorism. If challenged he will likely say that jihad is only permissible for defensive purposes and those who believe otherwise have corrupted Islam’s teachings (but of course which Islam?). This is ahistorical but is as legitimate an interpretation as many others. But it is psychologically shallow. Most great religions in the world require some sort of sacrifice on the part of believers in order for them to gain the final reward. Often it is a simple quid pro quo equation - sacrifice your life in this world in order to gain it in the next. For Christians this sacrifice is done viscerally, by association with Christ crucified. For Muslims the sacrifice is done literally, through jihad. Islam is indeed connected to terrorism. It is Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif who is mentally lacking, or perhaps just not courageous enough to look at things in ways that would lead to discomfort and angst for his good self.

Tags: America, Christian, Christians, Corruption, Cultures, Education, Indonesians, Intellectuals, Islam, Jihad, Koran, Middle Class, Muhammadiyah, Muslims, Poverty, Quran, Radical, Religion, Religions, Terrorism, Terrorists, Western

44 Comments on “Terrorism, Poverty & Islam”

Ismail Says:
October 6th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
The London 7/7 bombers were not poor, in fact they had good jobs and they were brought up in the UK. It’s hard to help Muslims see it but Islam and its ‘holy’ books are completely responsible. Just a few weeks ago 16 churches were burnt in Nigeria, off course Islam is responsible. When people come into faith its to help them cope with lives issues and poverty is one of them, there are poor Christians and Hindus and sikhs but they don’t go around getting angry and blowing themselves up.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 7th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
There is neither Islamist terrorism nor Hindu terrorism . Nor is there Christian terrorism or Buddhist terrorism for that matter! Terrorism has nothing to do with religion. It is a phenomenon which is secular in nature.

Osama bin Laden may be hero to some misguided Muslims but no genuine followers of Islam will believe that Allah would forgive him for turning the World Trade centre into hell for thousands of innocent American citizens.

The basic precepts of Islam are the same as the Christian and Jewish religions, unfortunately, those in the case of maintream Islam have been subverted and their religion is no longer based on Al Quran. What they practice is no longer Islam.

Terrorism is based on brainwashing, it has no connection with poverty apart from the fact that it is easier to find people who are succeptible to brainwashing from the uneducated poor, who are uneducated purely because they are poor. The only ways to combat terrorism are to remove the brainwashers, those who are poisoning the minds of thousands of young people (Abu Bakar Bashir is one example who springs to mind, how do we as a country justify letting him have a school?), and also boost education, encouraging discussion, debate and free thinking.

If you remove a people’s faith as suggested by Ismael, you will end up with complete moral degradation, in actual fact that is what seems to be happening in the mainstream Islamic world, where people have rejected Al Quran. They seem to have lost their direction.

I am not suggesting an ascetic Islamic revival, just a return to the goodness which is contained within its pages.

I realise that Ismail and many others will say that Al Quran is violent and filled with hatred, but that is only the case if it is approached in that way. This statement could also be applied to the Bible, which if approached in the wrong way, can also be shown to be violent, sexist and racist.

If you are a person of faith, follow your faith with a kind heart and goodness, do not try to disposses others of their belief, and work hard to try and understand other peoples paths to God.
If you are not a person of faith may God have mercy on your soul.

Peace
Ismail Says:
October 9th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Mohammed Khafi, thank you, it’s always nice reading your post, first let me tell you quite frankly, its not true that the way you chose to apreach a book will determine what you will find in it. I believe that even if you hate for the bible and you are willing to learn precisely what its massage is you will find the truth. the central theme of the Christianity is Christ and he preached love even when he his firm against sin, the massage is the same
john 3:16 for God so love the world that he gave……… not a Christian world but the sinful unbelieving world
Muslims scholar love to dash the bible and Christianity but you can’t change its massage, not hate but love,even when persecuted. not hate but love.

you can’t see anywhere in the bible where Jesus says we should kill our enemy but he said pray for them.
he told Christians not to fight for him that he will defend himself. this massage is enduring that is why Christians don’t bomb or kill for the sake of GOD or his Christ. the voilence in the bible are narrative not instructive and there was not war of conversion in the bible.
therefore you don’t have Christian blowing up planes and train and homes and suicide bombing JUST LOOK AT THE AMISH SHOOTING they just forgave the gunman’s family because that was what Christ demanded. i wonder for a moment if the Amish were Muslims, this would end differently.

Islam on the other hand tells you to kill, the voilence in the Quran are open ended, the hate for the unbeliever is palpable and real, you can feel it and its demand for jihad is evident plainly “you can know a tree by its fruit”.

if you want me to give you verses i will you can even count them.

let me give another example that will explain my point. Jesus was and still is against poligamy as far as he his concerned it’s a sin, therefore countries with Christianity as its foundation insist on monogany because the bible is quite insistent on it.

but look at country is the Quran as its foundation allow polygamy and even “muta” in some cases.

the truth that both books support is unchanged, even when you are biased you can only chose to accept or reject its

———

Mohammed Khafi, please the read the above but its not true that Islam and Christianity preach the same thing cause the different on all counts.

marriage, Islam its possible to marry for wives in Christianity Christ insist on one.

heaven, in Islam there is sex and wine in heaven in Christianity there is no such just street paved with Gold.

there is no such thing as Jihad in the Christian faith.

Women enjoy equal status in Christian that is why a man can’t marry more that one.

Isaac is the acceptable Heir of abraham and ismeal is not.

Christ Jesus is the central theme in Christianity and mohammed simply don’t exit and as far the bible is concern such people like him are false prophet and a fake inspite of what Muslim scholars says about him being in the bible.

in Christianity Christ Jesus the messiah died on the cross in Islam he did not die.

is Christianity the death for Jesus gave us clean slate, but the Allah in Islam just forgive or you go to heaven when you good deed outwieght your bad deed.

in Christianity your adopted is son is the same a son giving birth to by you but using the zaid/zainab story and what Allah said the same is not true for Islam.

in Christianity you can pray in you language you don’t have to change to another language because all language have the same rating with God

i can on and on. the fact is that Islam and Christian do not converge at all in any way.

that must lead any reader to wonder if they are the same god in the first place.because they are radically different.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 9th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Ismail,

If you wish to approach the bible looking for violence it is there:

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

And as for your loving Jesus:

Matthew
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned “with unquenchable fire.” 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commit’s adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 7:19

“The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: “Let the dead bury the dead.” 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither “receive” the disciples nor “hear” their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few “prophecies” in the Bible that has actually come true). “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.” 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and “able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up “all that offend” and they “shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it’s better to be “maimed” than to suffer “everlasting fire.” 18:8-9

“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors.” 18:34

In the pArable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn’t have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and “cast him into the outer darkness” where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 22:12-13

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It’ll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he’ll “cut them asunder.” And “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 24:50-51

The servant who kept and returned his master’s talent was cast into the “outer darkness” where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 25:30

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an “everlasting fire.” 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46
Mark

Jesus explains why he speaks in pArables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don’t will be damned. 16:16
Luke

God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel’s words. 1:20

If you also want more there are plently more. But finding them and showing them would not lead to a greater understanding between religions, it would lead to divisions and more violence, that is not my aim, unlike yours I believe.

For me it is all summed up in Al Quran ” Any who believes in God, believes in the day of judgement and does good deeds has nothing to fear from God”
I am trying to find a path on which we can all walk together.

Peace
Ismail Says:
October 9th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
Mohammed Khafi, thank you for the verses you quote, not a single one of the this verse are instruction for voilence they are narrative and not instructive, as it seem to me that you needed most of them to be violent.

for instance you quote the following

“Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don’t will be damned. 16:16
Luke

God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel’s words. 1:20″

even though verses are badly quoted non of them instruct violent on human beings by another because they don’t believe what you do. please let me show what an instruction looks like “Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” this is certainly an instruction and Jihadist use this regularly.

then you quote old testament even though as Christians we have a new convenant, these verses are narrative of what happened not an instruction. please not that i really do appreciate what you are trying to do and i respect it, but it will not work because Islam is completely against the God of the bible in every way. and popular Islam want to subjugate all others. you can only reform Islam by looking closely at the nature of God in the bible.

Jesus says by there fruit you shall know them. just look at Islam worldwide it tells you what book teaches violence.

thank you

please the truth is not far from you

you know i thought of writing a comment on every one of the verse you quote but i realise its not worth it.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 10th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Ismail,

I will never believe as you do because I believe that there is only one God, and only one religion, I believe that all the God given scriptures have some value, although it may not at first seem apparent. I believe that Gods Scriptures apply to all humankind. I am trying to find a common path for all who believe in God.

I think that your beliefs are exclusionist and to be honest with you, any religion which preaches exclusionism is not from what I believe to be God. Your belief that the only way to salvation is through Jesus is just as ridiculous as the mainstream Muslim concept that anyone who doesn’t profess “shahada” is destined for the fires of hell. The Jews being just as bad believing themselves to be Gods chosen people to the exclusion of all others.

I think that you have all corrupted Gods, teachings if you believe that you have an exlusive right, and any who don’t share you views have no right.

Peace
Ismail Says:
October 10th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Mohammed Khafi,

yes i do believe that the only way to God is through Jesus alone and I am not ashamed of that but, the different me and those of Muslim faith is that no one is excluded because John 3:16 says for God so love the world…… that means everyone.
if you want to love him back you must deal with the sin question and that is where Christ Jesus comes in. please do realise that the choice is yours, i can only share that with you.
Again no one can seat on the fence, human goodness can’t be good enough because its relative and it changes but look at Jesus he his perfect in all ways and what he did and said becomes the reference for goodness please do study him in the gospels.
finally i have had excellent correspondence with you and do believe that you want to please God and that is why I have bothered to write back, you do appear to me to have a good heart,(no patronising just the truth) i pray you find Him(God) i will not be responding to u directly anymore because I am afriad you might not be comfortable with my position, but do have a lovely life.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 10th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
Ismail,

Like my friend Hassan, you focus too much power on your Prophet, religion is all about worshipping God, the singular unexplainable presence at the core of all our beings. I also believe that you are a good person, but somewhat misled. All will be revealed on Judgement Day!

Peace
Bas Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 12:07 am
“Terrorism has nothing to do with religion. It is a phenomenon which is secular in nature”.

What a good joke! It’s incredible how people can be blind and say such illogical, far from reality, things to defend their religious beliefs.
Molisan Tono Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 10:38 am
khafi my friend,
this the first time i disagree with you mate…

i quote your saying:
“Jesus explains why he speaks in pArables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12 ”

I don’t find this written like this in Mark as you mentioned above. especially the last sentence… to confuse people so they will go to hell…

my friend, Jesus does not plan to “visit” earth to throw you to hell, He simple do His job spreading the Words as His Servant have done their work before. His time is final, if no one will hear His voice, then the will be no return fron their path to hell… as I believe it too.

it surprise me that you find it strange to your understanding khafi. Jesus always talk with pArable… mystery to those who doesn’t believe… hidden enigma for those who lack of knowledge.

you absolutely not one of them my friend. let’s end this now, Jesus is here for everybody.

and one more thing…

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below.

Matthew 8:32
“And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.”

do you think worth if Jesus cast out the devils and send them to other human? learn carefully my friend… that demons called Legiun… means many of them. they reside in one man body, if those demons step in many human lives, then bye bye humans… and Jesus is murderer of man.

pigs definitely expendable than human right?
Miss Indo 07 Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 11:35 am
For Ismail n Tono,,
I think this is a lesson we should take,,
if we don’t want ppl think negative abt our religion,,dont ever think bad about other ppl religion,,
pls always believe that every religion teach u good things,,it just depend on the people,,the way we think,,just like what KhafI said,,
Once again,,terrorism has nothin to do with religion,,
they just use it,,use the religion to make bad things look good,,it’s all becoz of brainwashing,,
I have a lot of Muslim friends,,n they rnt terrorists,,
n sumetimes even i feel annoyed with some Christians or cath who r soooooo fanatic,,
pls,,dont b fanatic,,becoz that just will blind ur eyes,,
peace for everyone
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Molisan Tono,

My friend, you have misread my post, if you look carefully, you will see that I was explaining that you can if you wish, find things in all of God’s Scriptures which can be seen as violent, just as Ismael was doing with Al Quran.

It is how you approach God’s words and apply them in your daily life which dictates how you learn from them. If you read with hatred in your soul, you will find hatred, if you read with love and tolerance in your soul, you will find love and tolerance.

My apologies if I have upset you, but I was using those verses to illustrate a point, not trying to denegrate Nabi Isa. It says in Al Quran ” . . . treat all of my Prophets equally” That is what I try to do.

Peace

Makin_kolot-dan_buta_loe,

I think you need to broaden you horisons, your views seem somewhat blinkered.

A quote from Ali Ashgar Engineer:

Thus a truly religious person is truthful, non-violent, just, respects equality, loves all, is compassionate and tolerant whether she/he performs certain designated rituals or not. In fact rituals in symbolic sense are instruments for realising these values. But these rituals become ends in themselves and hence religion becomes dogmatic, static and indifferent to human suffering and in some cases even cause of suffering. We should strive to promote value-oriented and not ritual-oriented religion in the world. It will be a great boon for humanity.

The rest of his article is to be found here, If you want to broaden your horisons that is.

If you want some examples of secular terrorist groups how about these:

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/perspective/values.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_organisations

Anybody who uses violence or intimidation or illegal acts to further their religious ideals have strayed so far from the path of God that they no longer deserve to be called religious, they are sinners and disbelievers in the absolutely worst sense.

Peace
Daniel Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Mohammed Khafi,

You just spat out a list of things that you think Jesus said without giving regard to context or meaning. That reminds me of Ahmad Deedat (the South African cleric) who claims that the Bible has been “altered” by Christians, and his “proof” is that “some of the words are written in red”. There is the logic in that?

Whenever someone quotes a scripture from the Quran to prove a point, I always give Islam the benefit of the doubt and reference that scripture myself. I have alot of Arabic speaking colleagues who are happy to read particular scriptures for me, and then give me the translation. Infact, that is a key to successful living. Look at contexts, investigate for yourself, and seek the truth.

Whe scriptures that you just “quoted” show that you have done none of those things.

I would like to answer all of your accusations, but because I see that you put so little care into making them, I choose not to put time and effort into a rebuttal. And yes, you did not put effort into those accusations. You quoted a scripture - Mark 25:46. There is no Mark 25:46. Mark only goes to the 16th chapter.

There are others which you quoted that have been misquoted completely. You literally changed the words and the scripture references.

Your actions are causing you to lose your dignity. How would you feel if I came here and said that your prophet said stuff that he didn’t? You wouldn’t like that, and that would show a complete lack of respect from me. So why then do you perform that activitiy yourself?

My challenge to you is this: read the Gospel of Matthew from start to end - slowly. One chapter per day. And pray to Allah and ask him to reveal himself to your heart. Next, go and make friends with a practising Christian and ask him to explain the scriptures to you. If you are going to use scripture to try and prove your points, it is best that you know their meaning, and that you can atleast quote them accurately.

Sorry if my words are harsh. I mean no disrespect. Mohammed, all the best for you on your journey.
Daniel Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Mohammed, I just read your comment to Molisan Tono and I apologise.

As soon as I read your post I made my reply, without noticing that you had already explained your reason to Molisan Tono.

My apologies.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
No Problem Daniel, we all sometimes act on impulse when the better course of action is to reflect on what we should do, I am no different from anybody else in that respect.

Peace
Ismail Says:
October 11th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
hello MISS INDO 07, thank you for your post, but often i here people say “fanatical Christian” what they mean usually is that, the Christian in question love to talk about Jesus, then yes I am fanatical i love to share his truth and love, trust me I have no capacity for hate, if i do I am not Christ like therefore not a Christian.

I just love to tell about what Christ did for me and often if we as Christian tell it as it is, people do get change, for example if a Muslim radical get to know Jesus all the hate, they harbour just slip away and they just love and love more. that is the value Christianity teaches.

you talked about your nice “Muslim friends” yes I have a lot of them too but i tell them about Jesus, because, its nice Muslims that change and become more Islamic and radicalised, if you doubt this give your Muslim friends a couple of years you will see what i mean.

More Christian like to stay friends with everybody so we don’t talk about Jesus it makes us look and sound fanatical, its really sad because it means we don’t value him enough and the changes he can make in peoples live.

I have no hate for anyone its practically impossible, i used to be like that but Jesus changed me. please the read the true love story, the GOSPEL.
Munafikbangetloepade Says:
October 12th, 2006 at 1:21 am
> trust me I have no capacity for hate

BRWAHAHAHAHA…. YEAH RIGHT….

friks…..
Josef Says:
October 12th, 2006 at 6:31 am
Mohammed Khafi,

You should have a madrassa.

peace to you
Molisan Tono Says:
October 12th, 2006 at 9:58 am
well noted khafi, thanks for correcting my point. i must admit i misread and maybe miscapture the tone… hahaha…
Miss Indo 07 Says:
October 13th, 2006 at 10:39 am
it ends up,,peace with everyone
nice ^^
Molisan Tono Says:
October 13th, 2006 at 11:42 am
hopefully d’terror also end up peacfully like in this post miss indo…
Hassan Says:
October 14th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
this time, i agree with that wacko Munafikbangetloepade. as Ismail’s words: “trust me I have no capacity for hate” is the understatement of the century. when did Ismail speak nothing but hate about Islam?

do what you preach Ismail, if you preach love, do it! don’t go around spreading hate to other religions.

——

Mohammed Khafi: you said “Like my friend Hassan, you focus too much power on your Prophet, religion is all about worshipping God”. for someone who profess to have a sound knowledge of his religion, you sure use too much assumptions about your own brethren.

1st of all khafi, you do know that using too much negative thinking on other people is not a good thing, don’t you? we usually call it “suudzon”. khafi, you are absoutely true to say that “religion is all about worshipping God”. believe it or not, i and most Muslims never ever worshipped any other than Allah SWT. yes, not even Muhammad (pbuh). when we pray, we never even once thought about Muhammad (pbuh), our minds are strictly to Allah SWT.

we never consider Muhammad (pbuh) to have any power at all, the power of is with Allah SWT alone. the only difference between us is that most Muslims take heed of his sayings and took him as our examples, something you did not do. was following his examples and taking heed of his words is an act of idolatorizing or worshipping?

then who do you take as an example if not your own prophet? some western values? man made values?

btw, I had wrote a reply on your question in the “female circumcision“ thread.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
October 15th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
Hassan,

You said:

when we pray, we never even once thought about Muhammad (pbuh), our minds are strictly to Allah SWT.

My friend you cannot even according to your rules profess to being a Muslim without mentioning Prophet Mohammed, what is your Shahadah? what about the rest of Allah Prophets, are we not told by Allah to treat them all equally?

You also said:

we never consider Muhammad (pbuh) to have any power at all, the power of is with Allah SWT alone.

If that is the case, why do your religous preachers and teachers always precede their rules with “according to The Prophet” how often do you hear them say “According to Allah” or “it says in Al Quran”
Just try a little test, make a note of how many rules are according to the Prophet and how many are according to Allah, next time you are listening to one of you religious teachers.

You said:

was following his examples and taking heed of his words is an act of idolatorizing or worshipping?

Yes of course it is if you are following something which is not given by Allah in Al Quran, you are effectively taking sources other than Allah for your religious law.

The whole point which you seem to miss here is that Allah says that Al Quran is protected by him, not Sunnah and Hadith.

Allah says His Book is complete, perfect and fully detailed, you by following Sunnah and Hadith are saying it is not.

Peace
Ismail Says:
October 16th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Hassan Says:

“this time, i agree with that wacko Munafikbangetloepade. as Ismail’s words: “trust me I have no capacity for hate” is the understatement of the century. when did Ismail speak nothing but hate about Islam?

do what you preach Ismail, if you preach love, do it! don’t go around spreading hate to other religions”.

The fact i tell it has it is don’t mean i hate, I can’t hate what someone is doing but I don’t have to hate the person.i cn tell my daugther what she did is bad but I can’t hate her. the ideology of Islam is hate, evil and pure subjugation of others, i will not give you past examples just wait a moment Islam will be what Islam is.
Hating a Muslim is a sin and i will not be less a Christian thats what God intends for me to be, but, i do believe that Islam is evil. its make otherwise peaceful people become hater and murderer. just at the Hindu guy in the UK, soon after he became Muslim he could suddenly justify murder. THAT IS ISLAM plain and simple.
Hassan Says:
October 16th, 2006 at 6:51 pm
Ismail: you said “the ideology of Islam is hate, evil and pure subjugation of others” that shows your ignorance to other religions. Ismail, Islam had 1,5 billion followers. 1,5 billion people doesn’t embrace a religion that spreads hate and evil. are you saying we have 1,5 billion haters, killers, and evil doers in this world. if what you say is true, than world war will happen.

you also said “i do believe that Islam is evil. its make otherwise peaceful people become hater and murderer”. listen Ismail, you are living in a Muslim dominated country, if all of us are haters and murderers than you’ll surely be dead by now, don’t you think?

think ismali, don’t let prejudice and ignorance (of other religions)overwhelms you!

BTW, spreading hate towards other people and their faith is an act of hate in itself.

Ismail: again, what you said about Islam, THAT IS ISLAM ACCORDING TO ISMAIL. NOT the truth about Islam.
Ismail Says:
October 16th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Hassan, you see i do undertand where you are coming from, but you miss the point altogether, the fact of the matter is that if the ideology Islam is not checked it will definitely consume the world, but you have people who say they are Muslims but reject a whole of it (we hope they reject all of it) because they have retained some of there original culture. but even that is changing, recent survey suggest that 20% of Indonesia Muslims not support jihad against other faiths how sad and unfortunately that is the story everywhere, ordinarily pious people are changing and its rapid the real Islam is becoming visible just last week 16 churches burnt in Nigeria

you said “listen Ismail, you are living in a Muslim dominated country, if all of us are haters and murderers than you’ll surely be dead by now, don’t you think?” but my brother that is the point they have been killing and I am sure its not going to stop because Christian are easy enough to kill. since I am an apostate of Islam I have to be very carefull and that is the truth.
again the problem is not the Muslim person its the ideology that is turning them to what they have become, you can debate it all you want. Muslims “real Islam kind of Muslims” all want saudi Arabia kind of society where Christian can’t even carry there bible, this irrefutable. and jihad ( “and I don’t mean inner struggle kind” ) is the only way to get it.

you said again “Ismail: again, what you said abaout Islam, THAT IS ISLAM ACCORDING TO ISMAIL. NOT the truth about Islam.” Nope, sadly I’m afraid it’s all true. you can only know a tree but its fruit and that is what Jesus said. we all can see the fruit of Islam. please watch out for somalia you will see another fruit of Islam it wont be long.
Hassan Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Ismail: “the tree” of “evil Islam” sure brought about so few fruits. if there is only about 1,5 billion Muslims and about 0,001 percent Muslims who commit rampant violence, then that tree is not productive isn’t it?

lets put it this way, the university where i got my degree had produced tens of thousands of graduates since it’s establishment in the 1950’s and only a few dropouts. and the “school” that produced “haters and murderers” you called Islam had been established here in Indonesia hundreds of years ago, and had hundreds of millions of “students”.

tell me, how come that “school of evil” had only produced a handfull of graduates like the bali bombers and JI members? that is one bad school. if it does teaches “evil” and “murder”, then out of the hundreds of millions of “students” it should already produced at least tens of millions of “graduates”, shouldn’t it?

maybe there is something wrong with your picture, maybe those murderers and killers are just some “dropouts” from the school of peace and love called Islam.

there is no hate and murder in Islam, it’s just Ismail’s paranoid view. if I am a paranoid person then I would fear the Christians, because since the inquisitions, the world wars and now Iraq, people who professed to be Christians (and guided by the holy ghost after their baptising) had commited all those violence on other human beings.
Ismail Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
hello Hassan, first i must disagree with your percentage I am sure its wrong and i can prove it you, In most African country where Islam dominate, they will tell you there is nothing wrong with jihad, alot of them have Osama pictures every where, most of them believe that the Sura 4.89 must be obeyed, its state basically to kill an apostate. in eritia, somalia it’s all the same story, i gave the Indonesian statistic,the figures will get worst, moderate Islam does exsit only in the imagination of peaceful Muslims and sad there number is dwindling, look at the nederlands Muslims are becoming radiclised at amazing rate its scary. the so called moderate have not demonstrated on the street against the so called radicals because in principle there action can be defended by Islam the ‘Holy’ book. now in the Uk, 1 in every 10 Muslims will not report a terror attact if they know it will happen, same allover europe. i can go one these fact can be variefyed its quite sime

you may disagree with me but fact don’t lie. if you can show anywhere in the Quran where Allah loves unbeliever and ask you(Muslims) to love them too and pray for them i will show you 40 where it is stated for you to kill them and not take them as friends. the so called moderates are not looking at this and explaining it to them themselves. Hassan no Christian can get and use the words of Christ to defend any evil deed like murder, conversion by force and all that stuff you mention please stay with the fact. yes people might have done them but not in Christ words and deed. Christian(noun-word) means to be like Christ!! simple. but you can’t say the same about Islam.
call me whatever name you want, but Islam is what Islam does.
Hassan Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 6:49 am
Ismail: you speak about all these “proof” and “facts” about violence done by Muslims. well where are they? all i heard was comentaries by Ismail. no “proofs” and “facts” yet.

about verse 4:88-89, here they are:
4:88 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
4:89 They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

now, it is clear that the “they” in 4:89 referred to the hypocrits (a group of people in mecca in Muhammad’s (pbuh) time who confessed to had accepted Islam, but their actions doesn’t show it) not non Muslims today.

you see Ismail, you are not honest at all when you cherry picked the verses to make your point (like our contemporary politicians) while concealing the facts. you hid verse 88 when you pointed out the 89. now, you have absolutely no credibility at all in my eyes in quoting the verses of the Quran.

you said “you may disagree with me but fact don’t lie.” yes, facts don’t lie, but Ismail does.

Ismail, when will you realize (as Mohammed Khafi as pointed out) that when you read any of God’s scriptures (as i quoted from khafi): “If you read with hatred in your soul, you will find hatred, if you read with love and tolerance in your soul, you will find love and tolerance.” and brother khafI had even pointed out verses in the bible that “sounded” violent.

you also mentioned “yes people might have done them but not in Christ words and deed. Christian(noun-word) means to be like Christ!! simple. but you can’t say the same about Islam.”

that’s not fair, is it? when Christians committed violence, you said they were not done in the name of Christ. but when Muslims committed violence, they were done in the name of Islam? that’s double standard on your part, mate!

anyway, Christians are anyone that confessed tobe a Christian and had been baptised. if Christians means “to be like Christ” then there would be no Christians in this world. i mean, who can imitiate Jesus’ miracles, or even his behavior these days?

the fact Ismail is: people who confessed tobe Christians had commited more violence in this world than anyone else in the last millenia! can i say that Christianity taught them to do that? if your answer is no, then Islam also did not taught Muslims to be violent.

argue as you like about violence by Christians, but Christianity is what Christianity does. look at yourself in the mirror, if you point a finger at the image you see there, it would point at you right back.
Ismail Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
Hassan hello, i read the whole lot and it was insiteful but let me stress some impressions perhaps for the readers so they can see that you have just confirmed what all Muslims believe.

As long as you say and ‘perhaps’ prove that a “Muslim apostate” is an hypocrite, then its okey to KILL the person, maybe i should have explained it like that. where is the mercy, where is forgiveness, the later part says let me quote you correctly…… “But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.”

you can put in any context you want, most of your Muslim buddy killing allover the world can’t and won’t see that context. it further shows that ISLAM is nothing but a death cult. just watch the news not “Muslim news” but world news Muslims in afghan have kiddnapped an italian man they are asking for an a Muslim apsotate in italy to be giving in exchange…. trust me thay don’t want to play with him.

its not true that we don’t have ‘Christ like’ people, you are using the misforturn of Islam’s moral failure to judge all Christians.people are finding the new life in Christ daily and they are living for Christ. you will not believe it but its true, Jesus is making a different in the lives of people even Muslims daily.

you can console yourselve with your knowledge of history in order to validate Islam, but it won’t work because, you or anyone for that matter can’t prove that the WORDS OF CHRIST, lead them to do it.

but you can put the contextual explanation about Islam’s holy book forward, it doesn’t change the fact that it evidently and openly advocate the death of unbelievers and apostate.

finally I am sure that I have not hate in my heart for Muslims, I was one before and i did explain to Mohammed khafi that is not true that its how your aproach to a book particlarly God’s book will determine what you will get from it, in Christianity God expect not love him and care for what he says but he ask you to give him a chance, that why he want you to read the bible, its okey to bring your fear, your hate, and misgiven just read it with open heart. he will gently teach you about Himself.
Molisan Tono Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 11:58 am
guess what… i’ve found 3 person look a like with Christ… but sad… they were murdered by wrong accusation from our fella Moslem brother…. they are Tibo CS… Hassan my friend… Dominggus is crying out for Christ for your sins… He said “forgive them… they don’t know what have they done”… sad huh???
Ismail Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Molisan Tono hello

Jesus is all about forgiveness and yes he will forgive and even go on to love them.
Hassan Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 7:24 am
Ismail: the term “hypocrits” used in the Quran specifically means: a group of people in mecca in Muhammad’s (pbuh) time who confessed to had accepted Islam, but their actions doesn’t show it. not hypocrits today, and not non Muslims today. so my friend, you got it wrong on all accounts.

“most of your Muslim buddy killing allover the world” how many of that 1.5 billion Muslims are doing the killings? MOST usually means more than a half. 800 million Muslims are on a killing spree? either your grammar is incorrect, or you had watched too many horror movies. a touch of delusion maybe.

“it doesn’t change the fact that it evidently and openly advocate the death of unbelievers and apostate.”
care to explain these?:

Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

Ismail, history had prooved that Muhammad (not Jesus) is the most influential person that had ever lived. and the facts says that Islam (not Christianity) is the world’s fastest growing religion. I don’t have to proof anything to you, but you Ismail must proof to all of us that the history and the facts are wrong. can you do that?
Ismail Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Hassan, i hope we can keep this up, i really disagree with you, about Mohammed being the most influencial figure on earth, cause even mohammed had to to talk about Jesus for relevance. but let leave that aside.

And i do believe that he Mohammed had a remarkable influence, all terrorist in the world follow his “sublim morals” most of the Mullahs or Imams have more that 2-3 wifes ’cause he had more than 14 and women slaves as a side kick, they sometimes beat there wives. and in most Islamic countries studies show that Muslims men marry underage girls just like the “prophet who had no prophesy or deeds of miracles”, who himself married a girl of 6 years and slept with are at age 9 and only Muslims can explain this quiet gracefully how. well i can go on about his influence its sadly unending

yes back to the text you quoted.

yes those text, are what we Christians call the old testiment and if you care to look closely you will find they historical and therefore narrative and yes they did happen i can even try to explain to you but this is not the forum.
let me point out a few facts from the text you quoted.

1. they are not quoted out of context they are in there right historical place except your quote of psalms 137 -9 you shoud have stated from verse 7.
2. As mentioned before they are narrative.
3. they are not open ended text. they are specific to the event
4. the text are not instructive therefore Christian view them as historical
5. based on the above we as Christians live and preach the new testament or a new covenant.

let say this. take moment to listen to Christian massages e.g billy graham you won’t here this voilence you are trying to ascribe to Christians rather the love of God comes right through and , even those on the fringe of Christs teachings. that is the fruit of Christ, he fullfilled the old covenet and gave us a new covenant.

but listen to Muslims clerics from the blind shiek in the US, to the imams of Islamic court in somalia to the president of iran. to the madness going on in Iraq. they just follow Mohammed precisely there massage is full of hate and ofcourse death revenge is not never too far off, yet the scream more than any faith that Islam is a religion of peace, how ironic as a matter of fact, if you a non Muslims say otherwise they will kill you and it just go on and on.

if Mohammed was truely from God he would encouraged the new covenant and not form the most evil cult that ever lived, there share weight of this cult appeal is amazing, that is why we believe he, satan and Allah are the greatest antiChrist ever. believe me its not a surprise.

Finally, please you lean on the old testament as much as you want, but let me make quite clear, Christians are Christians because the follow the words JESUS the Christian. So if you are looking for what as Christians follow please read the Gospel.
let me give you just a bit of it.
love the lord God,love your neigbour and your enemy and pray for them, you must marry one wife and love her like yourself…….. space is not enough to enumerate all that Christ stand for, note that they are all unIslamic, that is why Muslims would love nothing more than to keep telling themselves that the bible is corrupt, overly edited and the rest of that non sense Muslims tell each other. i can go on and on but i fear my responce is becoming too long. thank you.
Hassan Says:
October 27th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
Ismail: the thing about you is that you always say this and that, but without any proof to back up those narratives.

there is absolutely no proof of any of these, these are all “according to mr. Ismail”:

“but listen to Muslims clerics from the blind shiek in the US, to the imams of Islamic court in somalia to the president of iran. to the madness going on in Iraq. they just follow Mohammed precisely there massage is full of hate and ofcourse death revenge is not never too far off, yet the scream more than any faith that Islam is a religion of peace, how ironic as a matter of fact, if you a non Muslims say otherwise they will kill you and it just go on and on.”

I have been a Muslim all my life and not once i heard of any of what you said in any sermons. I have friends and cousins living in the US, and they never mentioned hearing any of those “vile sermons”. maybe you’re just being paranoid? maybe a case of dellusion? maybe you’re just propagandizing without evidence? have you personally heard any of those things? maybe you’re just lying to justify your point!

-Muhammad (pbuh) didn’t talk about Jesus for reference, he was just making the records straight about Jesus to the Jews and the entire humanity. because the Jews had defied and tried to kill him. Jesus was one of God’s messenger after all.
-Muslims have more than one wives because God allowed it in his Book, not because of following Muhammad (pbuh).
-Muhammad (pbuh) married the underaged Siti Aisyah because Aisyah’s father Abu Bakar wanted it. Abu Bakar is Muhammad’s (pbuh) closest friend, and it will offend him if he rejected the offer. the couples started to sleep together when Aisyah received her first menstruation, a sign of adulthood for women those days. that is an accepted concept on the culture at the time. who are we to judge the cultures of the people of old days based on our own standards? that’s naive and arrogant.

you see, you don’t know what you’re saying. you don’t understand anything, yet you claimed to have knowledge of Islam, that is ignorance.

again, western scholars (not Muslims, mullahs, etc) had proven Muhammad (not Jesus) was the most influential person that had ever lived. and Islam (not Christianity) is the world’s fastest growing religion. now, that “evil cult” is gaining more followers than Christianity which taught love. why was that?? those people who newly embraced Islam couldn’t have been attracted by a religion which taught evil and violence. they must be enchanted by Islam’s beauty and love.

I don’t have to proof that to you, Ismail. history will proof which one is the straight path and which one had been diverted to paganism by worshipping three but one god(s).
Ismail Says:
October 28th, 2006 at 1:13 am
Hassan thank you for your reply, but let me remind you, that the so called Nazis germany had sympathizers in the US too and they are still there and i hear there numbers are increasing too, isn’t that ironic, after killing over 12 million people they still have convert, certainly, Islam and Nazis are one and the same just slightly different terms. they have a common enemy.

i did say Muslims are the only ones that can defend Mohammed pedophiliac behavour, i thought he was sublime in morals, so your prophet could not live above culture and peer pressure. he was a failure then. what you are saying is that a girl in those days mature after their first menses, hello sir, that is absolute nonsense, do you know there girls with first menses at age 7 even in mohammed times, therefore its ok to have sex with them. this is a shame and certainly Islamic.

if you want to be sure about something why don’t you go study it for yourself, let forget the numbers for a moment, go study the bible and see if we are truely worshiping 3 gods cause we are not and on that account and many account the Quran is miserably wrong, allow me to give you an example:

Quran 19 27-28 says “At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), They said: “O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! “O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste.”

Quran 66 12 says ” And Mary the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).”

the two verse above are just one of the many indications that the Quran is pathetic and completely mistaken, because historically and biblically mary mother of Jesus is different of maryam the sister of Moses and Aaron who happen to be the children of Imran and they lived 2600 years apart. please go check my facts. the Quran is a concoction, therefore Islam is a lie.

let me appeal to your academic sense, please go learn Christianity from a non-Muslim source just to be sure. let me tell you this, the bible and Christianity has been, before mohammed came. for that reason only take an objective study of bible and Christianity because your imams and Muslims are simply wrong on all counts.
thank you.
ali Says:
October 28th, 2006 at 1:54 am
again, western scholars (not Muslims, mullahs, etc) had proven Muhammad (not Jesus) was the most influential person that had ever lived. and Islam (not Christianity) is the world’s fastest growing religion. now, that “evil cult” is gaining more followers than Christianity which taught love. why was that?? those people who newly embraced Islam couldn’t have been attracted by a religion which taught evil and violence. they must be enchanted by Islam’s beauty and love.

what have those point got to do with the real truth? the fact that it grows fast has no relevance to its being the correct one. weeds in my garden do grow faster that my flowers.

I have yet to see the so-called “Islam’s beauty and love” — if that claim were true, how would you explain the fact that most of the violence in the past few years were committed by people who claimed they were Muslims? you can argue that it’s not the religion who commited the act, but if that argument is correct, we shouldn’t see a pattern, should we? yet the pattern is overwhelming - there must be a relationship between the teaching and the act.

your Muhammad is just another guy from the middle east’s past to many of us - no more than that. I wouldn’t even be surprised if some don’t even know who he is.
praise him all you want, a lot other leaders - from lenin, mao, mcarthur, or even suharto could turn themselves into similar cult personality and create themselves a religion a few hundred years from now, had they written a lot and inserted the word “god” or “Allah” here and there in their writings. I’m happy they didn’t, is enough.

i don’t have to proof that to you, Ismail. history will proof which one is the straight path and which one had been diverted to paganism by worshipping three but one god(s).

the fact that you mention “three but one god(s)” is an strong indication of your offensive ignorance. if you don’t understand something, don’t assume the subject is weird or wrong. it could be that God has not blessed you with enough intelligence to comprehend it.
Andrew Says:
October 28th, 2006 at 3:42 am
Yo Hassan this is a free forum, so words are as cheap as dirt. Mohammed built the straightest path, as straight as the letter “S”.

Oh, and Merapi is the tallest volcano on earth.

“¦western scholars (not Muslims, mullahs, etc) had proven Muhammad (not Jesus) was the most influential person that had ever lived.

That’s Muhammad Ali, not your Muhammad.

Jesus is.
Ismail Says:
October 29th, 2006 at 12:16 am
Ali please allow me to say this: that was a fantastic post.
Hassan Says:
November 8th, 2006 at 12:55 am
Ismail: how many are those nazis sympathizers these days? billions?

now Ismail, according to the bible Jesus was born by the virgin mary, but according to modern scientific standards that’s impossible. Jesus drank wine with the tax collectors and prostitutes, by modern ethical standards it is unacceptable for a religious person to drank wine with prostitutes. modern standards are not the ultimate judge of decency. contemporary standards evolves. hence, judging the cultures and standards by our own is both ridiculous and arrogant.

what Muhammad (pbuh) did was a fine and unacceptable practice according the the cultures that time. was he suppose to know that 1500 years later that practice is frowned upon and illegal in some Christian countries? that’s just ridiculous. what gave you the right to judge other people from another time period and their cultures based on your standards??

for example if you married your wife when she was 22 years old, that’s fine right? how about if in 100 years time, the legitimate lawfull age limit to marry a woman is when she is 28 years old? won’t you be called a pervert??

Ismail, you sure never learns, don’t you? how many times should i told you that you don’t have any knowledge, and hence any credibility to quote the Quran? Mary was called as “the sister of aaron” by the local Jews back then as a way of giving respect for her piety. mary was a respected person on Jewish society at that time whose piousness and sincerety was considered to resembled aaron’s piety, as she used to pray all day long on solitude. I bet you didn’t know that.

if you’re not worshipping 3 gods, then tell me: can the holy ghost create the universe? can the father be the redeemer? no, he needed Jesus to redeem the sin of mankind. can Jesus exist without the father? who’s the first one to came into being, Jesus, the holy ghost, or the father?

ali: are you saying that humans and weeds are the same?? because I’m implying that all those people converted to Islam for a reason, and the reason is not fertilizer, hate, or evil. but love and peace. those people are as smart as you are and have the same power of reasoning as you do.

andrew: “Jesus is”, yeah right. it’s no use arguing now, wait till judgement day, shall we?

————

and Ismail, you said “please go learn Christianity from a non-Muslim source just to be sure.” have you studied Islam from a non-Christian source? I guess not, maybe it’s your pastors, cardinals and popes who got it wrong on all account?? you know, just to be sure.

Quran 19:88-92

88 - And they say: “The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) (as the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son (Christ), and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.).”
89 - Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
90 - Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,
91 - That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allah).
92 - But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).

and also 19:93-96

93 - There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) as a slave.
94 - Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.
95 - And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).
96 - Verily, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)) and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Beneficent (Allah) will bestow love for them (in the hearts of the believers).

i don’t know what you believed, but that’s what I believed. that’s monotheism (Quran 19:93). God is Supreme, One and Only.
Mohammed Khafi Says:
November 8th, 2006 at 9:02 am
Hassan said:

according to the bible Jesus was born by the virgin mary, but according to modern scientific standards that’s impossible.

Not just according to Injeel, Hassan. Also according to Al Quran.

She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?” 19:20

And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples. 21:91

And Mary the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). 66:12

Hassan also said:

Jesus drank wine with the tax collectors and prostitutes, by modern ethical standards it is unacceptable for a religious person to drank wine with prostitutes

From a purely Quranic perspective, alcohol in limited quantities is acceptable, intoxication is what is harmful.

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder 2:219

This verse clearly states that you may spend your excess if you so wish on gambling and intoxicants, but that it has to be done in moderation, as too much leads to great sin

O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say, nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when traveling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again. 4:43

Clearly here there is no injunction against drinking, purely a command to not pray whilst intoxicated.

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination) that ye may prosper.
Satan’s plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: Will ye not then abstain? 5:90-91

Again no injunction against gambling and intoxicants, but rather a request to refrain from them.

As for the prostitutes, I would suggest that if the intention is not to avail oneself of the prostitutes services, then what could be the harm in socialising with them, possibly to help them in some way or other?

Regarding the question of the Prophet and Aisha. Paedophilia is completely unacceptable at any time in history for a truly religious person, I chose to reject the Hadith which is where these stories of child sex abuse come from. Please stop trying to defend a disgusting practice by trying to say that it was acceptable at the time, and start looking at the root cause of the problem, Hadith!

Hassan also said:

what gave you the right to judge other people from another time period and their cultures based on your standards??

Hassan, I would ask “What gives the Islamic Sharia based Clergy the right to judge people and impose standards from another time period and their cultures based on their standards?”

Peace Brother
Solomon Cohen Says:
November 10th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
It wasnt Muslims that killed massive numbers of Africans, majority of them Muslims, through slavery it was Christians, it wasnt Muslims that killed 5 million Jews it was Christians, it wasnt Muslims that used two atomic bombs on Japan it was Christians, it wasnt Muslims that created aparthaeid it was Christians, it wasnt Muslims that created colonialism to rob and pillage the world it was Christians, it wasnt Muslims that used chemical weapons in vitnam it was Christians, it wasnt Muslims that casued the extinction and genocide of the native peoples of America it was Christians. It seems you Christians need to look at the hard facts. There is no Muslim country that is currently using war in a Christian country to rob it of its natural resources. Get real, your own Christian scholars, the ones who are truthful, have asserted that the bible is far more violent than the Quran. It wasnt Muslims that were responsible for the massacre in Rawanda.

From a non-Muslim
Ismail Says:
November 18th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
hello Solomon,

first let me take you back your statement you said “Get real, your own Christian scholars, the ones who are truthful, have asserted that the bible is far more violent than the Quran.” please I would like you to quote the scholar, that said that bit and i will like to read his findings.

secondly I guess you believe that all the newscaster in BBC are Christians because the bear Christians names well, news flash sir, the have claimed openly in so many ways that they are not Christian.

if you desire to explore the truth read the definition for a Christian in the bible i will give you tips perhaps you will get a grip.

Jesus says i must love those who hate me and even pray for them, and all the apostles said the same thing

apostle paul say “owe no man nothing but love” he went on to say you can have all the spiritual gift in the world and understand, looking most pious and all that good and nice thing and you have not LOVE all that is a waste.

mind you sir, the first Christians where so called, because in the city of antioch they behaved like Christ, they cared for the sick, they attended to the poor and they loved, they did the things the that Christ did and commanded

Jesus said, to be a Christian, a child of God, its not by calling yourself Christian or bearing Christian sounding names, it simply obeying his word, he said forgive 7by70 times. that is being a Christian sir, living above SIN and loving God, when I became one(Christian) i knew the difference, I became a man of one wife and I have been devoted to my wife and family and people.

finally sir, there are volence in the bible yes, but the are narrative not instructive, that is why the volence you mentioned couldn’t have been by Christians, they can’t even quote a word by Jesus to validate there behaviour. Jesus stood differently even while on the cross he said “father forgive them for they know not what they do” not sir that he did not curse or abuse, he simply forgive.
finally as a suddent of the bible and the Quran i can tell you that the volence in the Quran are instructive, and that is why jihadist will always quote from the words and deed of the ‘prophet mohammed’

please i do believe from your words, that your understanding of the bible is been from hear say, perhaps from people who already hate Christianity and all that it truelly stand for. but sir if you are careful go through it for yourself.

———-

Hassan, thank you for replying,but do try hard to stop judging my knowledge and stop calling names, i know its not an ethically problem for you, but its not helping your defence in my opinion, I am sure people are reading so let them be the jury.

I am sure you don’t think its cool for a prophet of 54 to marry a girl of 6years and sleep with her at age 9 even in the 7th century and most certainly not now, I am sure your desire to defend Islam and its prophet at all cost is really big on you and I think it’s a big burden to bear. so i wont say much on it. this sets him apart surely from the true prophets of God in the bible, apart from the fact he had no miracle and no prophecy.

but let go back to mary shall we: you said

Mary was called as “the sister of aaron” by the local Jews back then as a way of giving respect for her piety. mary was a respected person on Jewish society at that time whose piousness and sincerety was considered to resembled aaron’s piety, as she used to pray all day long on solitude. I bet you didn’t know that.

i will beg you to think this though for a moment, I think its sad because, it seem to me that you’re trying to grab air with this explanation. I think its quite simple really, i quoted the Quran your so-called revealed book or decended book, and you are looking to change the uneditable ‘holy book’ by saying that it was the Jews that the Quran was quoting and not a revelation. how sad indeed. one more reason why that so called ‘holy book’ is a bunch-bundled non-sense.

for clearity may i quote the Quran verse again, perhaps you will dig up a more acceptable explanation, here is the verses:

Quran 19 27-28 says “At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), They said: “O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! “O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste.”

Quran 66 12 says “ And Mary the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).”

clearly the 2 verses together says that mary mother of Jesus is aarons sister and that there father is Imran. the Quran is completely wrong in this case, as its wrong in it theologicall,historical and moral positions.

i do feel you have not presented any other case worth replying, I think our brother Khafi has been graciuos with the truth. God bless him in Jesus name.
Ihaknt Says:
December 13th, 2006 at 7:52 am
Wow…obviously a very sensitive issue, heated arguement.