Female Circumcision

Aug 31st, 2006, in IM Posts, by

The Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims.

H. Amidhan of the MUI, speaking in Banjarmasin, said that his august organisation had no problems with female circumcision, because it was a duty for Muslims, was safe and did not cause any health problems for those who underwent it.

Circumcision is especially meant to be done for a Muslim, because circumcision not only cleans the filth from the genitals but is a requirement for every Muslim, and it also helps to contribute to a child's growth.

From the time of Abraham until that of Muhammad circumcision had been done, for both boys and girls, and it had become a part of the culture of the Muslim world, a part that could not be left behind. Those who said that circumcision caused harm had to prove their case, he said. Logic was then applied to justifying the practice, known often as female genital mutilation (FGM) or female genital cutting (FGC).

If there are those who say that circumcision causes damage or hampers reproduction then I think they have made it up. The proof is that there has been significant growth in the population of Indonesia and most Indonesians are Muslims who have been circumcised.

Not done he went on to say that circumcision was beneficial to Muslims, both men and women, because it removed the filth from the genital area. Islam approved of circumcision, for men and women again, provided it was done in the right way.

Because a Muslim must not pray unless he is clean and one way of being clean is to be circumcised.

Amidhan was not the only one of this opinion. Syamsuddin Hasan, from the Majelis Wilayah Korps Alumni Himpunan Mahasiswa Islam (KAHMI) in South Kalimantan agreed that female circumcision must not be forbidden by the authorities.

I fear that the attempt to ban it [female circumcision] is part of the mission of a certain group who deliberately use the health excuse, to the point where Muslim women will not be clean because they haven't been circumcised, so they can't pray in the correct way.

He advised Muslims who work in the health field to be on their guard and not co-operate in the effort to stamp out female circumcision.

September 28th. A study in six cities, Padang (West Sumatra), Serang (Banten), Bandung (West Java), Sumenep (Madura, East Java), Makassar (South Sulawesi), and Kutai Kartanegara (East Kalimantan), has shown that 90% of Indonesian women are circumcized.

Doctor Rachmat Sentika of a hospital Child Protection Unit and Dr Zaitunah Subhan of the religious section of the ministry for womens' empowerment said that they had met with the MUI last week and been informed that the Department of Health must not try to forbid the practice. Sentika said that the MUI did object to the removal of the clitoris but that the "opening" of the clitoris was acceptable and that health professionals should be taught how to do it properly.

January 20th 2008. New York Times article saying 96% of Indonesian girls have undergone some type of circumcision. Here.


235 Comments on “Female Circumcision”

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  1. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 9:00 am

    Female circumcision? Never heard one of those thing but quite funny though, why women always become a victim of man’s superiority? Which part of women need to circumsize? Their boobs? Ohhhh I see now… maybe some of their boobs are too big, so male Moslem can’t pray.

    Yo man, clean up your mind dude. not only with water… that’s too symbolic, useless and hypocritical.

  2. avatar Oigal says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 10:00 am

    Female Genital Mutilation is wrong and sick on so many levels it is astounding!

    FGM is violence and brutality against women full stop!!!! and has nothing to do with religion.

    As for the “Those who said that circumcision caused harm had to prove their case” try here http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm

    for a start and keep reading.

    beneath contempt

  3. avatar Agusto says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 12:19 pm

    Molisan

    Where are you from man? You need to keep up with the latest trend! I have heard of fgm since I was a kid! We dont use to do it back then, but time has changed you know, we need to adapt to the 7th century dessert kind of civilisation or we will go astray!
    For a start why don’t you google “fgm” see what they say, you might wanna know where to do it just in case! After all this is MUI man, they mean business!
    I know many here are gonna say MUI doesnt represent Moslems, they have their own agenda, they twisted the real Islam and I am just another Jew trying to cause havoc in Indonesia! So lets go back to the seventh heaven!

  4. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 12:39 pm

    Oh okay… I missed that one. My bad.
    After I read it, my opinion still… that kind of circumcision is totally wrong. Why on earth, God who create vagina for women order such religion to mutilate that part? That is completely stupid, I’m sorry mate, but that kind of god is stupid, malfunctioned god, that god need to brain wash lol.

    To control birth rate by mutilate woman genital is absolutely crazy… man, you all guys should consider women health. Without woman, there’s no other descendant of man. in other words… no woman, no baby.

    To control that mate, control you sex drive… most Indonesian, especially those who lack of knowledge… their sex drive do not have a brake, even though they have one, it’s broken.

  5. avatar Magy says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 1:05 pm

    To me the kind of thoughts expressed here takes me back centuries. This must be wrong. Yet another slap in the face on women.

  6. avatar mike says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 1:34 pm

    my wife had a female circumcision. Pretty much all Muslim women in Sumatra have it done, or at least whee she comes from.

    It’s not a thing of the past at all.

    But it’s also not as bad as sometimes people say. They remove the clitoral hood, a piece of skin covering the clitoris. This is not as extreme as other forms of female circumcision, because the clitoris itself is not touched. A few Western women have had this procedure done electively as by exposin the clitoris they say it improves their sexual sensation.

    This might be true initially but by removing the skin it exposes the clitoris to the outside world and eventually I guess it gets rubbed and loses sensation.

    But, this is no different from male circumcision at all (which I don’t think is good either) – the removal of the foreskin deadens sensation in the penis.

    SO even though I don’t think either is right, it’s a bit hypocritical to complain about ‘female genital mutilation’ when it’s no worse than the male genital mutilation in many cases (although some cases it can be much worse, I don’t think that happens in Indonesia).

  7. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 5:14 pm

    Sadly once again we have another example of religious corruption, circumcision is nowhere to be found in Al Quran and cannot be justified as a true Islamic practice.

    For a Quranic perspective on the issue look here:
    http://www.free-minds.org/articles/Quranic/circumcision.htm

    The link earlier in these comments is luckily not representative of the practise in Indonesia, even the type of circumsision described by Mike, is I believe rare. In its most moderate form it can consist of just drawing blood from the Labia Minora, however it is still a completely unneccesary practice, and a good example of the backwardness of the vast majority of the Muslim Ummah.

  8. avatar Hassan says:
    August 31st, 2006 at 8:19 pm

    Molisan Tono: tsk..tsk..tsk.. i remembered saying that Jesus (isa a.s.) won’t help you Christians on judgement day and then you said that I’m a blasphemer, and i should stop that. now what’s this? you said : “why on earth, God who create Vagina for women order such religion to mutilate that part? that completely stupid, i’m sorry mate, but that kind of god is stupid, malfunctioned god, that god need to brain wash lol.”

    who’s the blasphemer now, dude?

    first of all, dude, don’t be shallow with a brainless statement like that. it was not the vagina that was cut, just part of the skin covering the clitoris, so reproduction is not hindered in any way. are you a bloke to think that we want to stop our women from reproducing, and stop bearing our children? and then, since the day of adam all the way to abraham, moses, david and even Jesus, both male and female was circumcised. Jews and Muslims still follow that teaching, and how was that Christians seems to forget that? even their so called god, Jesus, was circumcised.

    that “stupid, malfunctioned god that needed a brain wash” is actually the Father, the God of the abrahamic religion, God of judaism, Christianity, and Islam. you’re insulting you’re own God, dude!

    again, who’s the blasphemer now?

  9. avatar Fanglong says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 12:17 am

    And then, why not remove the eyelids ? And why not the whole skin ? How much pitiful territorial pissing-like stories !

  10. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 9:03 am

    oh okay… now it’s complicated…. hahaha…. so, you mean my God… Jesus… Elohim… Yehuwa… order that kind operation? gee, never in my bible say that “ye woman, cut off your vaginal skin”…

    maybe in your Quran, because your Quran 500 years too late after Messiah ascended back to heaven. so, maybe there are mistranslation during those 5 centuries. for your record dude, My God, Jesus Christ, God of the Abraham, Isaac and Jacob does not dwell in the box inside mecca like you guys to circle around.

    i find it your opinion quite shallow for a kind of intelectual person like you. do you believe modern sciense, the source is God Him self? do you know the meaning of circumcision? women no need to citrcumsize, why? they had their periode each month… man? we don’t have that lol. that’s why man need to circumsize.

    of course Jesus was circumsized, I have it done too, all glory to God… like I said before… I don’t find it no where in my bible women need to be circumsize… and yet, my God is not dwell inside a stony box… and too late 500 years after Christ. so sorry mate, it just don’t work with me.

    maybe I’m a blasphemer… but at least i tell the truth. so God can kill me now.

  11. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 10:17 am

    Hassan said:
    “since the day of adam all the way to abraham, moses, david and even Jesus, both male and female was circumcised”

    Hassan my friend, you really need to study more, whilst circumcision was a widely practiced cultural act of primitive societies, it has only been a religious obligation for Jewish males since the time of Nabi Ibrahim:

    “I will make you exceedingly fertile, and make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. . . . I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God. . . . Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep: every male among you shall be circumcised.” Genesis 17:6,8,10

    Knowing that Allah says the previous scriptures have been corrupted:

    “We certainly gave the Book to Moses, but differences arose therein: had it not been that a word had gone forth before from thy Lord, the matter would have been decided between them, but they are in suspicious doubt concerning it” 11:110

    “Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.” 2:77-78

    Do you want to trust the existing Torah for your religious guidance? If so you had better start following all the other Jewish Laws dictated in Torah.

    Circumcision is not in Allah’s perfected religion given to us in Al Quran, in fact Al Quran states:

    “Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.”

    Allah made good all that he created, then why would you want to follow a Jewish practice which destroys a part of his perfect creation? Do you not think that Allah knows best how to design a perfectly functioning human body?

    Sallaams

  12. avatar Miss Indo 07 says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 10:22 am

    Well Hassan and Tono, I don’t understand about Moslem, but I think Moh Khafi has mentioned above that female circumcision can’t be found inside the Qur’an.

    So Hassan I think actually Tono didnt mean that god (not God) is not your God, so, why should you be angry?

    All my brothers and a lot of my male friends have it done too, but I think the main reason is for health, has nothing to do with sex or whatever.
    And now?? Female circumcision? To make you clean enough to pray?
    Man, you can pray with mud all over you body and God will still hear you if you really pray with your heart.
    And what else? To control birth rate?
    I exactly agree with Tono, that’s those guys who have to control the sex drive!
    Or at least, have they heard about condoms or KB?

  13. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 11:22 am

    Hi Miss Indo 07,

    There is no mention of circumcision for either male or female in Al Quran, and the justifications for health reasons are I believe more driven by religious dogma rather than any real health benefits. There is a very detailed studies and links here: http://www.cirp.org/library/history/

    You are so right about prayer, the cleanliness required is spiritual and not physical. Some people place their faith in ritual and superstition, they are the real loosers.

    Your last point about controlling sex drive, it would appear that this only applies to women from the Sunnah and Hadith perspective, that is one of the excuses which they use for female circumcision, but then the men use other Hadith to take more than one wife, temporary wives, having sex with servants etc. Hiding their lust and sin behind what they consider to be religious teachings, shame on them for using Allahs name to justify their weakness.

  14. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 2:24 pm

    Thanks Khafi, this is the kind of Moslem I would like to live with. Hassan my friend, you always put other who opposing your opinion as shallow minded… you tell me now, what measure was taken from my opinion so you can judge that I’m shallow?

    I don’t understand what justified person for such act of “minimalize” their body function. for simple fact of creation. let say eyebrow… if there’s no eyebrow, what will happen to our eyes?

    so, no matter how many “additional” part in your body, there must be a certain reason why God permitted it exist in your body. if God create “part of the skin covering the clitoris” for women… is He has done something wrong so women has to cut it off? (this question is demonic actually, no need to answer that just think it your self) why on earth God who create such beautiful part of women, order them to be cut off???

  15. avatar Hassan says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 8:05 pm

    >Miss Indo 07: Female circumcision does not act as a method of contraception, as you suggested. nor does it have anything to do with reproduction, and or “sex drive” as u put it. have you ever heard of biology? you better look up books on that subject.

    >Molisan tono: This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard:

    “do you know the meaning of circumcision? women no need to circumsize, why? they had their period each month”¦ man? we don’t have that lol.”

    Actually the joke’s on you, have you completely lost it, dude?
    That sounded like a kindergartener’s comment. That IS shallow dude, you have to admit.

    btw, do you consider a certain skin that covers the tip of the female clitoris a beautiful thing? tsk..tsk..tsk..

    Lastly, Allah did not live inside Ka’bah, as you mentioned. it is a place of worship, Allah’s spiritual place of representation on earth. like the temple of solomon the Jews use to have. or the vatican for you maybe. So, God DID NOT live there, smart alec.

    another proof of “shallow”.

    >khafi: once again you exposed your true identity, a selective Quran believer. The Quran DID say that “the men can take more than one wife”, not hadith. your motives seems suspicious and shows unsincerity in understanding the Quran to me. JIL member huh?

    and I didn’t say anything about “sex drive”.

  16. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 9:47 pm

    Hassan,

    I didn’t say that Al Quran said otherwise did I? But Al Quran clearly states that the women to be married are the mothers of orphans in times of war and that men have to treat the wives fairly and equally:

    “Give unto orphans their wealth. Exchange not the good for the bad (in your management thereof) nor absorb their wealth into your own wealth. Lo! that would be a great sin. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.” 4:2-3

    I am afraid that in most cases that doesn’t happen as most of the men I know with two wives have married the second in secret, not for the purposes of protecting orphan children, but for sexual pleasure, they have also done so without the first wife’s knowledge or approval, is that the sort of religion which you believe in then ?

    Despite having Allah’s words in front of you you still defend Hadith and Sunnah.

    “And who doth greater wrong than he who hath been reminded of the revelations of his Lord, yet turneth away from them and forgetteth what his hands send forward (to the Judgment)? Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright” 18:75

    A selective Quran believer am I? well at least I am able to quote from Al Quran to back up my thoughts and statements, how many references to Allah’s word have you made in all the comments you have made here? Have you actually opened Al Quran once since you started commenting?

    You said:
    “your motives seems suspicious and shows unsincerity in understanding the Quran to me” Why should it be suspicious?, because I want the Muslim Ummah to return to Allah’s teaching, because I interpret Al Quran to be something good, to bring equality, understanding, knowledge, tolerance and maybe a little love and understanding into this world which is sorely in need of it?

    How can you possibly accuse me of being insincere, I am only repeating what Allah has given us, if that is not truth in word and action I don’t know what is.

    I didn’t say you said anything about sex drive, you will see that my posting was in repy to Miss INDO 07 and not you.

    Just remember this Hassan.

    You will not get any help from Prophet Mohammed on the Day of Judgement:
    “And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur’an of no account. Even so have We appointed unto every prophet an opponent from among the guilty; but Allah sufficeth for a Guide and Helper.”

    “Lo! they who deny Our revelations and scorn them, for them the gates of heaven will not be opened nor will they enter the Garden until the camel goeth through the needle’s eye. Thus do We requite the guilty.” 7:40

  17. avatar Bradlymail says:
    September 2nd, 2006 at 10:40 am

    Dear guys, just make a simple conclusion that ‘female circumcision’ is for her personal health and safeguard. That’s all….no need to argue so much. It’s up to individual to decide, I am not to pro or contra of this issue. Both has shown a relevant anwers and arguements…that’s all….cool down a bit and drink some hot tea….cheer up guys and gals.

  18. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 2nd, 2006 at 11:28 am

    Hi Bradlymail,

    I fail to find any health justification in this primitive practice, but you are right it should be up to an individual to decide, but that is not what is happening. The fact of the matter is that misguided parents are having these surgical procedures carried out on their children, the children have no say in the matter at all, and to make matters worse they are using misguided religion to justify their actions.
    If an adult wants to have these procedures done for whatever reason, that is their choice, they have the God given freedom of choice to do it, but they should not subject their children to something which can have serious effects on their lives as adults, and which in most cases is irreversible.

    Peace

  19. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 8:41 am

    Hassan Says:
    September 1st, 2006 at 8:05 pm
    ….”btw, do you consider a certain skin that covers the tip of the female clitoris a beautiful thing? tsk..tsk..tsk..”……

    answer me this Hassan…
    if God create “part of the skin covering the clitoris” for women”¦ is He has done something wrong so women has to cut it off? is God so stupid that He has stupidly put that additional part for women?

    you act and sounds like you are god and makes other looks stupid. you answer that and I will tell you how stupid I was if I was proven wrong… sounds fair to you mate?

  20. avatar Parvita says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 1:31 pm

    FGC is widely practised in African women. I can’t remember the country but some African countries, if not one, has forbid this practise. It is against the human rights. What they do is remove the women’s clitoris so that they cannot enjoy intercourse.

    Definetely, there is nothing that says women has to be circumsized in the Quran and if a women is not circumsized, they are dirty. There are even none that says that a male have to be circumsized. Instead, there is a verse that says everything that God created has its function and human beings only know little but God knows what we don’t know. So why cut and throw part of your body away?

    To even go further more, men’s circumcision is interpreted from the word ‘Qulub’ in Qur’an, which has to be ‘opened’ so that Moslems could receive all the messages from God. Qulub is ‘Qolbu’, which is the inner heart. You read the Qur’an with heart. The translation from Qulub to foreskin is somehow….not quite right.

    If the reason is health, well, the back of your ear sometimes is not being thoroughly soaped, so does that mean that you should cut your ear?

    And FYI, guys who are not circumsized have more sensitivity during sex than those who are circumsized. They enjoy sex more. Can tell this because I’m a woman :-) So why throw what’s given by God when everything He created have its purpose?

  21. avatar Fanglong says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 5:04 pm

    Hello Parvita !

    Thank you so much for your opinion.
    As we can see, ladies are wise, pondered, helping — and guys get excited and dream of jihad on their wooden horses !
    I sincerely pay homage to you,

    Patrick

  22. avatar Hassan says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    Mohammed Khafi: Allah SWT did say “Who created you, fashioned you perfectly, and gave you due proportion” 82-7, but there are many interpretations that we can take from that verse. For instance, i can conclude that the verse meant that there is no evolution in the creation of mankind, we are not the descendants of some ape. You may be correct in your interpretations, or you may not.

    I ask you this: if we are perfect humans, then Adam, Moses, Abraham, all the way Jesus (Isa a.s.) were also perfect human beings right? Why was it that those people were ordered to circumcise? Are they less perfect human beings then we are today? Or was it Allah’s will to create that certain skin purposively so we can then cut it to show our loyalti in His covenant? And lastly, you know that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was circumcised, didn’t you? did he blindly follow the traditions, or did Allah SWT ordered him to do so? would you follow your Prophet’s example or follow your own rationalization of this matter?

    liberal interpretations can indeed take you a long way from the truth.

  23. avatar Magy says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 9:15 pm

    I’m always very sceptical when I here someone claiming to have monopoly on the TRUTH. Don’t forget FAITH is just FAITH and NOT the truth.

  24. avatar Hassan says:
    September 4th, 2006 at 9:57 pm

    Mohammed Khafi: You know why I said that your approach when quoting the Quran seemed insincere and not honest? you have left many relevant verses when trying to make your point. When you said that the believe in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had nothing to do with Islam, and that we should follow The Quran only and not to listen to the words of a man (the hadith), you seemed to forgot that Allah had said:

    Quran 7-158:

    “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.”

    Your lack of faith in the words of Muhammad (pbuh) and the scholars (ulama) surprised me. The Quran is indeed Allah’s SWT true words and guidance to us all, but to be able to fully comprehend and understand the Quran in it’s true meanings we need the help of those ulama and indeed of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself, and his explanation, understanding, and realization of Allah SWT’s words and Islam is called the sunnah and hadith. Are you trying to say that you can better comprehend, understand, and interpret the Quran than Rasullullah SAW? can you guarantee that your interpretation and comprehension of the Quran is flawless and 100% free from mistakes??

    You better answer those questions before you go any further. If your answer is yes, then good luck to you and may Allah SWT guide you. but if your answer is no, then acceptance of Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah SWT (and the hadith) is the only answer.

    I leave you with some verses from the Quran that you either ‘forgot’ or deny.

    Quran 3-31:

    Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me (Muhammad): Allah will love you and forgive your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

    Quran 3-20:

    So if they dispute with thee, say: “I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me.” And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: “Do ye (also) submit yourselves?” If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants.

    ——–

    Molisan Tono: I’ll answer you with the same questions I asked Khafi. If we are perfect humans, then Adam, Moses, Abraham, all the way Jesus (Isa a.s.) were also perfect human beings right? Why was it that those people were ordered to circumcise? Are they less perfect human beings then we are today? Or was it God’s will to create that certain skin purposively so we can then cut it to show our loyalti in His covenant? As for why does the bible didn’t say anything about female circumcision, I don’t know, ask saint Paul, or any of the other authors of the bible. The bible’s authors are mostly humans, not God. Humans make mistakes and humans forgets.
    can you say that the bible is 100% God’s words?

    ——–

    MAGY: I’m not trying to monopolize the truth. it’s just that the majority and the mainstream Muslim thinking does not consider that the ‘schism’ called liberal Islam, or JIL (jaringan Islam liberal) as Muhammad khafi is obviously following, as the right form of Islam or the correct way of thinking.

    The MUI had once considered (or maybe did) placing JIL on it’s blacklist.

  25. avatar Bradlymail says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 8:08 am

    his guys ! a lot of arguements about this issue. some of this issue because of traditional and religion factors. so it is not a big deal.we come from various different background(religion,race,culture..etc) so up to them to practice..as i commented earlier ‘female circumcision’ is for health and safeguard.thanks

  26. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 10:06 am

    Hassan Says:

    “…if we are perfect humans, then Adam, Moses, Abraham, all the way Jesus (Isa a.s.) were also perfect human beings right? Why was it that those people were ordered to circumcise? Are they less perfect human beings then we are today? Or was it God’s will to create that certain skin purposively so we can then cut it to show our loyalti in His covenant?…”

    So much doubt here…

    So who write your Quran Hassan? Isn’t it also human that wrote those books? Are you sure it was given by Allah as you believe so? How would you know? You’re not even born yet.

    I don’t wanna ask too much of what God’s wanted from me. I’ll follow Him 100% instead of doubting His decisions. all I know that no where in my bible is written female need to be circumsized, why is that so hard for you to accept? or maybe if you had a wife, I don’t know… maybe you’re gay. who knows… do you think it’s necessary for your wife to be circumsize? ask that to your wife, don’t act like a macho cowboy here.

    If your wife had no problem with that, than you prove me where in your Quran was written down or sounding that women need to be circumsize.

    But seriously Hassan, are you gay dude?

  27. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 11:29 am

    Asallamu Alaikum Hassan,

    Al Quran is protected by Allah:

    “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it.”

    15:9

    Your Sunnah and Hadith are manmade and are therefore liable to curruption. Allah already tells us that his previous scriptures were corrupted:

    “But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.”

    5:13

    So where do you get your information that all these prophets were circumcised? When Allah tells me that Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, I believe him, if he doesn’t mention circumcision then it is not important:

    “Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.”

    6:114

    Your quotation of 7:157 seems to be a little astray, the verse you quote is actually 7:158 unless you are following an Ahmadhiya Quran which is numbered differently.

    The quoted verse is also incomplete without the proceeding verse:

    “Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.”

    7:157

    Implicit in this verse is the following of the message, as the Prophet is called the messenger. The verse also says follow the light which is sent down with him reinforcing that fact.

    The messenger which I follow is the messenger of Al Quran, I cannot believe that the messenger described in Hadith and Sunnah is the same man, so corrupted and insulting is their description of him!

    No I cannot guarantee that my interpretation and comprehension of Al Quran is flawless and 100% free from mistakes?, but if there are mistakes they will be mine, at least I have attempted to follow Allah’s teachings instead of blindly following:

    “Or do you think that most of them do hear or use their reasoning? They are nothing but as cattle; nay, they are straying farther off from the path.”

    25:44

    “And they shall say: O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;”

    33:67

    Majority and Mainstream Muslim?

    “Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.”

    6:116

    Salaams

    bradleymail:

    What health benefits or safeguards are related to female circumcision?

    ———-

    Asallamu Alaikum Hassan,

    As you are so fond of Hadith, how about this one:

    “The prophet said:’Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it”

    (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel3/12,21,39) This is Sahih Hadith Hassan!

    As for the Ulama, Allah said in Al Quran many times:

    “we made the Quran easy to learn, does any of you wish to learn?”

    (54:17, 22, 32, 40)

    Why would you need to go to somebody who refers to 50 volumes of manmade Hadith fabrications when Allah tells you His Book is Easy to Understand, Complete, Perfect and Fully Detailed?

    Sallams

  28. avatar Bradlymail says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 2:14 pm

    Mohamad Khafi maybe my interperation was not so good as you are. My view is for health prospective and not for religions view….’female circumcision’ is good for woman to maintain cleanliness her vagina (sorry to say that) please correct me if I was wrong? Thank you!

  29. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 2:52 pm

    okay brad… now for health reason… ask your girlfriend, your wife, your mother or your daughter for that reason. and get you answers back to this forum, let us hear what their opinion for that.

    I believe to maintain cleanliness start from personal agenda, not from cutting off “part” of it. besides it’s hurt, it’s also crazy to me. i find it hard even in my thought for my wife had vagina cut off surgery when giving birth of my son.

    no way on earth I will see my wife suffering such pain for that “healthy” reason.

  30. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    September 5th, 2006 at 3:20 pm

    Hi bradleymail,

    Would you want to cut off your lips to improve your oral hygeine? it would certainly make cleaning your teeth easier. How about cutting of your nose to make nasal hygiene and cleanliness eaier? ;-) or perhaps we should all be fitted with colostomy bags so we wouldn’t have to clean our a4ses? That would be much better wouldn’t it. ;-)

    We have all these bit’s and pieces for a reason, circumcision removes tissue which protects sensitive nerve filled areas, nerve filled areas which God has given us to make the act of sex pleasurable.

    It says in Al Quran:

    “Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of Allah, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.” 7:32

    If the pleasure of sex is not one of Allah’s beautiful gifts I don’t know what is?

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