Religious Differences & Pluralism

Nov 29th, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

Ross on the bigotry of teachers of religion in Islamic schools, ideological jilbabs, and Dewi Persik.

Schools Run by Nutters

The Jakarta Post recently gave front page attention to a survey (by an Islamic college, Pusat Pengkajian Islam dan Masyarakat (PPIM)) of Muslim "religious teachers" which indicates that a large percentage of them are benighted savages.

This in itself may come as no surprise but what is particularly disturbing is the fact that a clear majority of these ignoramuses are affiliated to the so-called "moderate, main-stream" Muslim bodies, the NU (44.9% ) and Muhammadiyah (23.8%).

While their enthusiasm for cutting off thieves' hands is a matter of taste, their notion that stoning ought to be applicable to people convicted of "other crimes" is abominable. (One hopes they will go easy on parking violations and smokers!)

I'm no softy pinko and I'm all for tough penalties, but we know how primitive Aceh is, beatings administered by cowards in masks to guys who play cards for small change or teeny-boppers who get caught canoodling - are we really looking at a situation whereby thousands, millions, maybe, of young Muslims all over Indonesia are indoctrinated into this kind of garbage by semi-educated goat-beards?

Over 21% of the nutters think anybody smart enough to convert out of Islam should be murdered. An incredible 85.6% abuse their positions to tell kids not to go to 'Western' festivals - i.e. if a young Muslim lad wants to go to his Christian pal's Christmas party, he's affronting his own religion. Sounds to me that there is a degree of insecurity in these pesantren senior common rooms - do they think the joyful festivities might seem more appealing than sonorous ululations?

Again, much the same percentage says it is impermissible even to learn about other religions! How asinine (and in this case hopefully self-defeating - if you tell a teen he's not allowed to know about something, he's likely to get into it PDQ).

These morons, 73.1% of those surveyed, object to having churches or other faiths' houses of worship in their neighbourhoods. Insecurity again! Bet they'd be the first to whine if Brits or Aussies object to a cacophany of mosques being erected in Sydney or Birmingham.

Yet 75% urge students to urge their contemporaries to convert to Islam. How they'd manage to demolish tenets of other faiths if they may not first make themselves aware of their target's current beliefs is a fascinating point which may be too complex for neanderthal imams to take on board.

When I worked in the West, I had numerous Muslim colleagues, exemplary in their prayers and other religious obligations but happy to join in the office Xmas knees-up. Thus I had a very open mind towards Islam when I came here. I find it harder and harder to maintain this, despite the many normal,sensible Muslims I meet and with whom I agree on a great many issues. Moderate Muslims abound, but they are not calling the shots.

The bad guys evidently have the whip-hand in education and politically, well, recall my post about the mayor of Tangerang, a man of mediaeval mentality, who nevertheless got the entire spectrum of "moderate" and even "nationalist" parties to back his bid for re-election. Now we read of the PDI-P and the PKS playing footsie, despite the candour with which the latter's leading lights admit their long-term goal of suffocating Indonesia under a giant ideological jilbab.

It's just too grim to contemplate, especially for those who never want to leave these islands.

Okay, that's today's rail - but just as a playful idea, how about we give the sharia gang something to keep them busy.

The PKS has supplied a number for the public (and that surely includes expats) to nominate women whose activities are an inspiration to Indonesia. It was in 24/11 Jakarta Post - 0856 7007 699 - and I'm strongly tempted to sms the name of a truly inspirational Indonesian female, the delightful Dewi Perssik! I doubt if they'll go by the democratic method of total smses received, but it would be great if she got more than anybody else. On the other hand, guess the PKS wouldn't let on!


30 Comments on “Religious Differences & Pluralism”

  1. avatar Peter says:

    You might want to cut back on epithets like “pinko”, “goat-beards”, “nutters”, and so forth. Your writing would be better for it, imho.

  2. avatar FriskoDude says:

    I actually thought nutters and goatbeards were hilarious epithets. Great article.

  3. avatar sputjam says:

    Muslims religionist perform the largest pagan ritual in the world in mecca and yet they proclaim to be against any form of idol worship.They just cannot see good from bad anymore.
    God has sealed their hearts and although they have eyes, they are blind.

  4. avatar Ross says:

    Yes, Peter, I could tone it all down, but you’d think an impostor had usurped my computer. Anyway, how about Dewi’s nomination -IM adherents could make that our Xmas project!

  5. avatar andrey says:

    More bule whining about people who refuse to follow their way of life. If anything, this only shows that the silent majority of Indonesians are not the into liberalism or pluralism (the JIL kind of liberalism and pluralism) so bule or bule wannabees can now quit claiming to speak for the silent majority and accept that most people here do not agree with their western ideology.

    What an irony that most anti conservatives are against these teacher “indoctrinating their student” with conservative values while advocating to indoctrinate them with liberal “values”.
    It seems that indoctrination is OK only when it suit their agenda.

    When the alternative is a culture that call a movie showing a 40 years old man’s nut as a comedy (comedy, not xxx movie), what is happening in Aceh seems a lot more civilized.

    Don’t be a hypocrite: as many of you used to say: “if you don’t like what they say, close your ears”. the MUI is just exercising their freedom of speech.

  6. avatar Alf Janszoon says:

    An incredible 85.6% abuse their positions to tell kids not to go to ‘Western’ festivals – i.e. if a young Muslim lad wants to go to his Christian pal’s Christmas party, he’s affronting his own religion.

    These are the true muslims who take their Holy book seriously:

    Qur’an 005.051
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

  7. avatar Ross says:

    Andrey, I am no liberal -ask Peter or Rob or Achmad.

    But it makes no sense for these preacher/teachers to try to turn Muslim kids into insulated indoctrinees – I go to Muslim weddings etc., never affront my hosts with theological crits, and listen to their views on the world. Why are islamic gurus afraid to let their teens do the same? The Muslims who attended those Xmas parties back home never showed signs of apostasy, just had fun with friends.

    MUI are not noted for any interest in freedom of speech, viz. their cheer-leading for the ban on Ahamdiyah…if they simply told their followers not to believe or participate in Ahmadiyah services, that’s freedom of speech- but they want alternative ideas put down, using regime goons as their proxies.

    No normal person likes porn, but speaking of a ’40 year old man’s nut,’ what about the morality of a forty-something marrying a child. My point is reinforced by the fact that that dirty old goat is not behind bars awaiting trial – why don’t the MUI use their clout to have the dirty brute put away? That would be a sign that they are in at least vague contact with common decency.(and yes, I heard tenative noises of disapproval, but nothing like the crescendo of intolerance emitted and effected against Ahamdiyah, and Lia Eden’s sect, etc., etc.
    Free speech, free choice, is anathema to these people. the worst example being the urge to slaughter any Muslim who uses his God-given brain to think he might try another religion.

  8. avatar funny says:

    They don’t want other people that is not like them.

    Starting to sound that everyone has to be them in order to be accepted. Different house of worship is outright rejected. Tolerance doesn’t exist. If you decided to change, 1/5 muslim pop will kill you.

    Sounds like another ideology that indonesia knows. But supposedly hate. Maybe they just change the name a bit?

    It does make me laugh tho.

    “don’t underestimate stupidity in great numbers” indeed…….

  9. avatar Czeslaw says:

    The opener by Ross is wonderfully stated and narrated.
    But it is all about the modern times of Islam. True value is in the origins of it, and not in what it is now.

    There is no physical connection to either of the two first “Koran” manuscripts, and Mr. Mohammed. There is too long in years and generations gap and the oldest manuscript. It is estimated about 150-200 years after the death of Mr. Mohammed. A lot can happen in that span of time. Also what could happen, that Mohammed could be not the real name of the person in questions, or that due to the time span, a legend formed of Mr. “X”.

    Similar case was in the case of El-Bab, but he wanted to introduce more softer and peaceful version of Islam, and was shot dead by Islamic Turks at the end of 1800(?) Because of it. Not long after his martyr death, new legend started to pop up one after another, among the Islamic people about El-Bab who objected to the brutality of Islam. But this is another sotry.

    But what amazes me, is the ignorance of the Islam scholars who are not of Arabic descent. How many of them actually did study the history of the near east regions from which Arabs are coming from? How about history of other kingdoms which culture and history are much more interesting and more historically based than few beduin and nomadic arabic tribes.

    Bowing toward Arabia, was compulsory from all who fell to the Arab sward in the conquered territories. It was written in the laws for the conquered countries and kingdoms to bow toward the Arabia’s capital where current highest camel drivers were farting in the camel’s saddle.

    Bowing toward Arabia didn’t have any religious beginnings, and it was a tribute to the victorious Arabian king who conquered that nation or kingdom. It was forma tribute, and not a religious thing to do.

    Because Arabs conquered so many countries in so many different parts of the world, it became necessity to write some rules and law for the conquered nations. If one will look at the different writings from the Arab conquer eras, it maybe more easy to find the basis for Koran in these regulatory civil writings, from which Koran is derived.

    I am not sure that the Koran was intended to be a religious book, and not just stay a rules by which Arabs intended to control conquered nations. I see as each person bows toward the “Mecca” that actually that person is paying homage and tribute to the King Fahd, and not any Mr. Allah, at the present – modern times.

    When Fahd will pass away, the live Islam people will bow to the new Arab king, and not any “Allah” god. Even a novice religious scholar would not have a problem to find Arabic “Allah” attributes in the ancient Arab beduin and nomadic gods of a fertility and crescent moon. Just take a look at the top of the roof of any mask, and you will see the fertility god crescent moon symbol.

    I think that this is something to think about, regardless how hard Islam follower one truly is.

    Again, great article Ross, and we are looking for more open mind people regardless of their political or religious leanings to share their views. It is not who is right or wrong. It is about the freedom of each individual to have right to express his/her view without the fear to be punished for it.

  10. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Alf Janszoon is obviously as ignorant of the real meaning of this verse as the so called Muslims who use it as an excuse for not taking Christians and Jews as friends.

    The literal translation of the Arabic verse doesn’t use the word “friends” as a translation of the Arabic word “Awliya” It is a plural and its singular is “wali”. The correct translation of the word “”wali”” is not “friend” but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean “guardian, protector, patron, lord and master”.

    The verse itself was revealed after the Battle of Uhud, when a predominantly Jewish tribe which The Prophet had negotiated a safety and security treaty had treacherously betrayed the Muslims in Madina. the verse is directed at the members of that tribe, this is the reason that it says THE Jews and THE Christians, not just Jews and Christians.

    For those of you willing to learn and not let others hatred guide you:

    Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection. Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers. Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9

    True islam is the only religion which encourages all who believe in God to strive against each other only in good deeds, and clearly states that all who beleive in God, have nothing to fear from Him.

    We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which God hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if God had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works: Unto God shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed. 5:48

    Surely those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens; any who believes in God and the Last Day, and does good work, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve. 2:62

    “Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.” ; 5:69

    Alf, I don’t know if you are simply ignorant or a hate monger but I hope that True Muslims will take heed of the following verse:

    O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do. Al-Ma’dah 5 :8

    Peace

  11. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamualaikum Mas Khafi,

    Welcome back. Was worried for you. Thought you were bobbled up by some islamists.

  12. avatar Pakmantri says:

    M.Khafi,

    Welcome back, long time no see. Hope all’s well. Missed your wise words.

    Salam.

  13. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Wa’alaikum salam wr wb,

    Work has been most pressing, so I haven’t been able to devote much time recently to Indonesia Matters! In fact I have moved country. I was home in Jakarta for a short while but have been invited to work again in Europe for a few years.

    It would appear that I haven’t really missed much, still the same old mixture of sense and stupidity, ignorance and enlightenment, humour and horror!

    Still it was good to get back and read a few comments, had to leave my own of course, can’t stand missinformation!

    Salaams to you all if you believe in God and Peace to those who don’t.

  14. avatar ET says:

    Mohammed Khafi

    Alf, I don’t know if you are simply ignorant or a hate monger but I hope that True Muslims will take heed of the following verse:

    Why do you accuse Alf Janszoon of ignorance and hate mongering? All he does is quote what is revealed in the Koran and translated by reputed scholars.

    What is the use of the Koran as a guidebook for all mankind if it can only be correctly interpreted by linguists and historians who might have an agenda of their own?

  15. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    ET,

    If Alf Janszoon was simply ignorant of the facts of the background of the quoted verse, then he should not be quoting the verse There are more than enough so called Islamic Scholars who are capable of that and using it negatively to paint Islam in a bad light.

    If on the other hand we was aware of the backround of the verse then he is simply a hate mongerer, randomly quoting Quranic verses out of context, again to paint Islam in a bad light. Of course there is always a third possibility, that he is a combination of both, an ignorant hate mongerer!

    Regarding your second point as to the usefullness of Al Quran as a guidebook to all mankind, If you approach the reading of Al Quran with a clean and good heart, you will find much to bring you joy in your journey through life, but remember that Al Quran is as it was revealed to the Mediaeval Arabs, it is not a modern day guide to life. The translations are nearly all coloured by Sunnah and Hadith traditions and are in many cases a poor reflection of the purity of the original classical Arabic verses. That is not to say that there are no good translations, but unfortunately the bad ones are in the majority, again if you have a good heart it is possible to find the correct interpretation.

    You know as well as I, that anybody can go to the Torah and Injeel and randomly pull verses from them to try and show both the Jewish and Christian faiths in a bad light, the same can be said for their histories both ancient and modern, come to that it can also be said of the Muslims. I refuse to do that because it would make me a hate monger. I prefer to try and do what I can to show that all religions can live together in harmony. Part of that process is exposing ignorance or hatemongering to others, I don’t really like those who destroy bridges between faiths, when those bridges are so fragile.

    Peace

  16. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    ET,

    Let us look at some other comments of Alf Janszoon on other sites and try and make a decision as to his character.

    From Islam Watch
    “Islam is also built on murder, highway robbery, theft, slavery. I came to this conclusion after reading the English translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sira by Alfred Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad. How can a sane person convert to islam after reading Ibn Ishaq’s book?”

    From Corporate Media Watch
    “What does defaming means? Do I defame islam when I cite quran, sira and the sahih hadiths, arguing that islam is a bloody awful and murderous religion?”

    A Hate Monger? I will let you decide!

    From Darwiniana “Experimental Philosophy”
    “The question is: do philosophers need to be scientists (specialists) beside being philosophers? Can philosophers follow the example of Aristotle one of the first empirical scientists cum philosophers? Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was philosopher and paleoanthropologist. Philosophers don’t need to be empirical scientists although it would help. They can use (with the appropriate amount of gratitude) the work of the scientists. For example: Ortega y Gasset used to speculate about the difference between man and monkeys he observed in the Retirio. Nowadays philosophers can use the results of comparative cognitivists, neurologists etc. If Ortega had lived today he would have studied “From Monkey Brain To Human Brain : A Fyssen Foundation Symposium” for example. The task of the philosopher is confronting reality in the form of scientific results, not in producing empty abstractions.”

    Ignorant? Again, I will let you decide!

    From Darwiniana “Self-evident moral truth”
    “Morality and ethics belong to the realm of intra-human relations and based on the principle of reciprocity. No need to drag metaphysics in this realm. I intend to brush up my Arnold Gehlen on this subject: Moral und Hypermoral.”

    Intelligent? Well….. After talking about the principle of reciprosity, and not realising that his hatefull invective will result in an equal and opposite reaction, I will let you decide!

    What seems strange to me is that somebody who appears intelligent enough to comment on philosophical questions, then has to rely on the corrupt and fabricated Sunnah and Hadith, or abstract quotes from Al Quran to try and make his point.

    Whilst this sort of behaviour is somewhat understandable from the masses who practice Mainstrean Islam it is completely unnacceptable from somebody who considers himself in some way superior to them, whilst accepting the lies and fabrications that they themselves believe.

    Peace

  17. avatar Lanang says:

    Comment’s from Physical Abuse Stories thread, but the subject’s more on pluralism.

    Sorry, Patung, Ross, can I do this?
    If can’t, please delete it. Ross, I’ll post a comment regarding your article later on.

    @ ET, fullmoonflower

    fullmoonflower said

    NEVER SMILE TO ARAB MAN!

    This is the most valuable advice I’ve heard in years. Just spit them in their face, that’s all these pretentious bastards deserve.

    Both of you sound like some fundies on the loose:
    NEVER SAY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO KAFIRS!
    BURN THOSE CHURCHES!
    BAN THAT AHMADIYAHS!
    SWEEP THOSE BULES!
    etc.

    Not only that it’s irrational, it’s damn straight arrogant. Hypocrisy, at best.

    Arab men? How about Arab women? And the rest of Indonesian Arab-descent? Or how about the Indonesian Chinese-descent? And Indonesian Eurasians? I’ve a friend a Pakistani-descent, just in case you’d like to spit on the whole Mideast. All are citizens of this country, all have lived in Indonesia for generation after generation, the only difference between perhaps you and them is that they’re not of the native ethnics? Would you like to meet them all in person and spit them in the face?
    Or are you both that type of chicks that attacks only Arab men in Saudia Arabia, but you’d gladly smile to ones in Indonesia? Smile, wide.
    Mind you, I used to despise Arabs or just about all Afghanistan-lookalikes because they brought along the likes of Hizbut Tahrir, JI or FPI to this country. Ruining the whole concept of Indonesia’s peaceful pluralism, and perhaps in its people’s personal lives.
    So this isn’t sarcasm or anything, thought this would be a great chance to prove your wit and courage in standing up for your belief — or prejudice? And I’d love to see everything said on this forum to be practiced for real for a change.
    Make accusations of others if you please, but regarding its politics, bureaucracy or cultures that will affect us Indonesians on public and political level. Don’t induce hatred because it’s already been induced out there even without people like you oh so kindly help.
    If you can’t prove yourself to this challenge, that would be a shame, because that would mean you’re spitting on your own face. Not that I have a problem with that.

    Too much judgment on others and we wouldn’t know where to stand anymore in life, see. Being wronged by people of a particular ethnic, race, religion or whatever doesn’t make them any less Indonesian, or any less human than you are. They’re just less right. On some things .. that perhaps you knew better. If.

  18. avatar fullmoonflower says:

    @ Lanang

    That’s my ex husband’s aunt’s wisdom to her women labours (TKW), avoid to got raped in Arab just because of misunderstanding of a smiling as “ramah tamah” for Indonesian…
    You must have know that Indonesian like to smile… always smile…

    My ex husband’s aunt has a labour distributor company (penyalur TKW dan TKI)…

    Makanya Bung, baca dulu yang diatasnya sebelum komentar… saya bukan menghakimi.. itu cuma nasehat dari budenya mantan suami saya ke TKW-TKW nya yang mau berangkat ke Timur Tengah, supaya mereka tidak pulang tinggal nama atau bahkan punya bayi keriting… gitu…

    Paham????

  19. avatar fullmoonflower says:

    Btw : my side job as Tax and Customs Consultant, and one of my clients is an Arab… Ofcourse I smiled to him when we met in a meeting. That’s a smile of a professional who met her client, not more. And, sure, he gave me respect as I am a professional, not a babu…

    Education and profession are talking here…

  20. avatar Ross says:

    Yes, Lanang….feel free to cross-thread from other topics – I’m happy to see it develop into a good discussion.
    But I shall be resting up over the Festive Season, unless some new railable material comes to hand- as it probably will!
    Have fun!

  21. avatar fullmoonflower says:

    Well, maybe I’ll get severe criticism from Islam Fundamentalist people and the Anti-Chinese according to my story.. hehehe…. 😀

    *But they will be still nice criticisms for me…. thank you so much before 🙂

    When I lived in Manado during the period 2003-2004, me with some Muslim, Christian, and Catholic friends, made an event in Kawasan Megamas for Idul Fitri and Christmas with title : “Lebaran dan Natal Bersama”, and me as the coordinator.
    There were 3 agendas : Pengajian, Kebaktian, and Food Gathering…
    Pengajian and Kebaktian were done at the same time in 2 different rooms (from Ba’da ‘Ashar until Maghrib).
    After sholat maghrib, we made gathering, and ofcourse we should prepared two different menus, because we still had to prepare “babi guling” for the non-muslims. In Manado, there no big party without Babi Guling Tore-tore…
    I don’t eat babi for sure, because I am a vegetarian and a muslim… 😀
    (Usually a vegetarian is a buddhist, is it true? I became a vegetarian since I was 6 y.o, after Idul Adha)

    Actually, in that event, my christian and catholic friends asked me to sing “Ave Maria” (Johann Sebastian Bach Sr. version in Latin language) as I am a classical singer (seriosa) and I rote this song very well, better than my catholic friend. But I couldn’t do that, because this song would be sung in their religious service. I told them that I couldn’t do that just because of my religion’s rule, but I could practice them how to sing it and wrote them the text. They understood, and gave me respect for that.

    I also celebrated New Year Eve, and Xin Cia with my chinese friends, both in Manado or Jakarta. And they keep texting me “Xin Nian Kuai Le, Gong Xi Fat Cai” for Xin Cia till now (hehehe)…

    By the way, I’ve planned to fly to Manado on February 2009 for Cap Go Meh event…
    Will anyone join me on February?
    Please, just let me know 😉

  22. avatar ET says:

    @ Lanang

    Why do you comment in this thread when the topic was physical abuse of Indonesian workers in countries like Saudi Arabia? What has physical abuse and its causes to do with religious difference and pluralism? Are these maids raped and abused because of their religion which in most cases is the same as that of their rapists and abusers?

    Btw, have you ever been to Saudi Arabia and seen with your own eyes what is going on there?. If not, then lower your tone or better shut up.

  23. avatar ET says:

    Mohammed Khafi

    Morality and ethics belong to the realm of intra-human relations and based on the principle of reciprocity. No need to drag metaphysics in this realm.

    That’s an interesting point of view that needs to be further elaborated. If this is the case then religion, for all its metaphysical connotations, should refrain itself from mixing with ethics and morality and I don’t think the ulamas will agree with this.

  24. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    ET,

    You would have to ask Alf Jonszoon, it was his comment? Being a simple engineer, I am far from qualified to debate questions of Philosophy.

    There are many things the Ulama disagree with, even Allah! We are clearly told to use our intelligence and intellect by coming to our own conclusions about Al Quran and its message, but the Ulama and Clerics still keep trying as they have done for centuries to forcefeed fabrications and downright lies into the minds of the Ummah.

    Despite clear verses in Al Quran which warn against clerics, many Mainstream Muslims are afraid to stand up against them. Allah in Al Quran even goes so far as to warn against believing what our fathers tell us because they may be in error.

    Peace

  25. avatar Lanang says:

    @ ET

    Never said anything specifically on religion. As I said, the subject’s on pluralism.

    Are these maids raped and abused because of their religion which in most cases is the same as that of their rapists and abusers?

    And did the perpetrators rape and abuse because of their race or nationality? That they’re *by nature* rapists and abusers?
    You’re stuck on semantics. At core, you’re just as pretentious and abusive as every bastard that perhaps made you who you are today.

    Btw, have you ever been to Saudi Arabia and seen with your own eyes what is going on there?. If not, then lower your tone or better shut up.

    Haven’t been to Saudi Arabia. Haven’t been to heaven or hell either. But that doesn’t limit us from getting a sense of what’s right or what’s wrong according to our own values.

    People like you feast on others’ sufferance. That’s why happiness.. *sigh, can’t believe I’m doing this*.. that’s why happiness isn’t for you. It’s for ones who accept it with open arms, and loves it just the way it is. Not punish it each time it said or did something displeasing.

    Make your own conclusion.

  26. avatar Rob says:

    Ross…

    Good to see you still have a “thing” for Dewi Persik 😀

    On the pinko, nutters, and goat beard front, it just would not be you if you opted for other terms of endearment!

    As to being a liberal…well, the only time you will see “Ross” and “liberal” in the same sentence is this one, and that is to say I have never thought you to be a liberal 😉

  27. avatar ET says:

    People like you feast on others’ sufferance.

    Do I? I thought I only made an angry and indignant comment on the mentality of a certain ethnic where a culture of permissiveness on the abuse of subordinates is prevalent.

  28. avatar Barry Prima says:

    Morality and ethics belong to the realm of intra-human relations and based on the principle of reciprocity. No need to drag metaphysics in this realm.

    The principle of reciprocity is more complicated than that, in fact the reciprocity is only taking place in the invisible world, not the everyday level of cause and effect which is visible to the human eye or rational mind or experience..You cannot have religion without metaphysics, as religion is the revelation of metaphysical or celestial forces into the human sphere. Without that you reduce religion, theology and thus humans to a singular moral dimension, which is what leads not only to fundamentalism, but also religious apologetics which are just as bad. You do not have to be a metaphysician or know metaphysics, to be partaking of metaphysical. Of course the intellectual understanding of metaphysics (which is impossible without humaneness) is what leads to real objectivity and understanding of society, religion, the universe and god and the point from which we can make decisions which are outside the usual levels of reactionary causation.
    Funny Says :

    They don’t want other people that is not like them.

    Same could be said of Ross….Freedom is only relative and based on certain assumptions about what human beings are and what freedom is .Fundamentalist have their own idea of freedom too.

    What is the use of the Koran as a guidebook for all mankind if it can only be correctly interpreted by linguists and historians who might have an agenda of their own?

    Correctly interpreted? There is no such thing, as one correct interpretation, that is not the idea of the Quran at all. What you see in the Quran is what is within you. You can only interpret according to you own hikmah and knowledge and the layperson need not necessarily need to be fluent in Arabic, as the Quran speaks in the language of the soul, and is thus dependent on psycho spiritual state /intention of the reader. Whilst a knowledge of classic Arabic is useful for scholars and theologians, it obviously has not necessarily lead to a beneficial understanding. The most appealing translations/interpretations of Quranic verses come from those who are both theologians and Mystics ie:Adul Qadir Jilani, Rumi etc…
    Koran as a guidebook for all mankind
    The Quran is inexhaustible in its scope; it is a guide as you said not a manifesto. Like any Wisdom text,it is not linear, logical and instantly accessible, it is a mystery that has to be unlocked, a puzzle. The Quran is the map of the human soul itself, and thus caters to all its layers of darkness and light. There is an element of compulsion in the Quran, but it is balanced out by a vagueness that allows sufficient breadth for human interpretation. I think it would be unfair to expect anything other than that from the creator or from a guide book?

    If you approach the reading of Al Quran with a clean and good heart, you will find much to bring you joy in your journey through life/ but remember that Al Quran is as it was revealed to the Mediaeval Arabs, it is not a modern day guide to life.

    Asslamualiakum Mas Kafi, can you see the big contradiction in the same sentence? If Allah is eternal and the Quran are his words as he revealed them, it has by necessity also have to have a dimension to it that is transcendental and timeless. Mas Kafi I have read some of your other posts, and you seem to indulge in a kind of Quranic apologetics, trying to make it fit into the modern world and the values it holds to be true.
    You are forced into that stance, by denying or not acknowledging metaphysics because only on that level is the unity and relationship between things revealed not on the purely literalist level. The Quran is not addressing one level of reality, one level of cause and effect, one type of human being, it is addressing the multiplicity of the universe, but then tying it up in an act of cunning into a unity.You can find unity on a rational level, but that unity is only relative (and thus no unity at all is it really?) and its validity is only true in a historic time and place. That is perhaps why you have reached the second part of your conclusion.

    Al Quran is as it was revealed to the Mediaeval Arabs, it is not a modern day guide to life.

    Whilst you try to find cohesion in the literal dimension, this itself is not one dimensional either, the Semitic field of words in the Quran as you mentioned are very wide in their range and open up lots of universes by themselves. People wrote whole books on one simple Ayat! In fact only with an understanding of metaphysics, can we unlock the language of the sacred..in fact if we do no acknowledge the sacredness of language in the quran we can never know what the treasures hiding within are.

  29. avatar Lanang says:

    You’re not even a bule, ET. Stop compensating it with your fancy words.

    Too lazy to type, sorry. Let’s just leave it at that, okay? Thanks.

  30. avatar ET says:

    Lanang

    You’re not even a bule, ET.

    Of course not. I’m an ET.

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