US Financial Crisis

Sep 30th, 2008, in Business & Economy, by

The US financial crisis opens the door for alternative economic models, like sharia finance.

The current crisis in the US and European financial and banking sectors is proof that the western capitalist model is a failure, says sharia economics expert Syakir Sula in Jakarta.


Syakir Sula

Syakir, former head of the Asosiasi Asuransi Syariah Indonesia (AASI), who is from Palopo, South Sulawesi, says the reasons for the financial crisis lay in the disconnect between the monetary values in the financial and money market sector, and the real, physical asset sector.

The money markets act like a balloon, they just float on their own path without any relation to the real sector.

Sharia finance, on the other hand, was firmly grounded in a connection with the real economy, he said.

Another expert, Adiwarman Karim, agrees, and says the markets will learn a hard lesson from the current crisis, and the result will be that the western financial sector will reform and become similar to the sharia model. beritasore


36 Comments on “US Financial Crisis”

  1. avatar Wake up says:

    Please give example of a flourishing economy that relies on Sharia financial model….actually what is a Sharia model and how is it grounded in connection with the real economy??

    I do not mean to say American models are the best….they have great flaws so does any other models. but we do have to bear in mind how some of these countries have flourished in a relatively short period of time. Eg Singapore, Japan, Australia, well we gotta say US as it has the biggest economy in the world…they all achieved success from almost nothing in almost breakneck speed. eg Singapore in less than 30 years since they break away from Malaysia in 1960s. the must be doing something right. I have never came across Sharia model though…maybe someone could give me an example…maybe the stuff i read has been so Americanized that sharia model countries has not been mentioned..

  2. avatar sputjam says:

    During asian financial crisis in 1997/98, the west indirectly said that asians were idiots.

  3. avatar Andy says:

    not really sputjam but they did take the greed is good mentality way too far. They borrowed money they couldn’t pay back and one lesson from that time is only the middle class flourished. Poor people still struggled as much as ever just like they are now in China and India. No welfare system or universal health care was considered. The governments just licked the cream from the cake. Hopefully next time Asian countries grow and flourish, all citizens will enjoy the spoils.

    Look whatever happens in the west now I don’t believe will be as bad as 1987 and certainly not as bad as 1929. And from both cases the west returned stronger than ever before. Compare that to now where Indonesia still hasn’t recovered from 1998 even though ten years have passed.

  4. avatar Patrick says:

    @ Wake up – The United Araba Emirates is definitely a hugely successful economy in the Middle East. My first visit to the UAE was around 2000 as I attended the Arab Health Show and believe me it was quite an eye opener as I had no idea of how beautiful and modern was the city of Dubai. Very impressive indeed! It boast a 7 star hotel called the Burj al Arab, an artificial ski resort, a gold market so dazzling its nearly impossible to describe without seeing firsthand, the world’s largest mall (should be very appealing to Indonesians), and the world tallest building among many other accomplishments.

  5. avatar Patrick says:

    @Wake up – I am not sure if they follow a Sharia economic model or not? However, I am sure that the expat community is far larger than the home grown population. (so never hear “Hey Mister”). But to be fair many of the innovation are being pushed by native graduates of Western Universities and they really do have some bold ideas and expectations for the future of the country that are not petroleum based.

  6. avatar dragonwall says:

    Hmm and Syakir Sula and Adiwarman Karim are experts in Sharia banking?

    Perhaps there are some of us that is unaware of how the Sharia banking work. Or perhaps it was a system taken from the current world banking system and make some changes in their system and called it Sharia banking!

    And since they are experts in this particular field, so how is Indonesia faring right now?

    I am sure they were trying to tell Bi it would be the best system for Indonesia?

    Quite some time ago, I had said putting the prudence of Burhannudin and Gultom in question, so indeed something had gone so wrong that it had became the biggest banking problem for Indonesia from within..

    And so when they implemented the rate cut, does that help Indonesia? It had not.

    I calculated the the Rupiahs will not go below 7,500 and till today it never gone below 8,000 and more to my expectation climbing towards 10,000.

    So how good is Sharia banking?

    They is always loopholes and the grey spot to pick and to catch someone in the wrong when some country’s economic system were in question.

    Comparing the western banking system will not help Indonesia’s economy. If the Indonesians know anything about Linear Regression in the micro economy then they will be able to make adjustment on the macro economy to stabalize the country’s economy. NOT SHARIA BANKING FOR SURE!

    If that someone had not screwed up the Astra Group’s endeavor when they were attempting to converge the Summa Bank into a Sharia banking system (actually nothing inside will change) then Indonesia’s economy may not be in a state of no return.
    At that time it was in the early 90’s the situation perhaps would have launch Indonesia into a new era of econo power in Asia instead of in such a dilemna with that many experts in Indonesia talking with no one capable of turning the economy around.

    Indonesia’s economic problem comparing to the US are entirely two different matter facing different problem and situation.

    A number of people in this blog were trying to refer to oil and housing loan and tying them all together. They don’t click at all.

    1. What actually happened to the oil crisis?
    2. What happened to the banking system in regards to the housing loan?
    3. What happened to the Indonesia economy?
    4. WHy is the cycle not going in a smooth direction?

    Can anyone figure that out?

  7. avatar Patrick says:

    @ Dragonwall – I will attempt the first 2 questions you posed but unfortunately I do not know enough about the inner workings of the Indonesian economy to answer the remaining questions.

    1. Oil has been fluctuating on the basis of strength or weakness of the US Dollar and of course supply and demand along with future speculation. As demand was peaking a few months back the weak dollar and future speculators drove oil prices higher than anytime in history. Goldman Sachs issued a report predicting that oil could reach as high as $200 USD by the end of 2008. As oil prices spiraled higher along with fuel prices at the pump consumers started to cut back on their driving along with weakening demand for factory orders in China & India which in turn led to increasing supply and at he same time the dollar strengthened considerably which led to a decline and we saw pricing once again under $100 USD per barrel. The economic crisis being experienced in the USA has once again weakened the dollar so oil prices are currently heading higher. The bailout plan by the USA will call for $700 billion dollars to help the financial institutions. If the USA prints that much new money than we will certainly see oil and everything else going higher as inflation will set into the economy. The result will be a further weakening of the dollar and therefore increasing oil prices!

    2. The banking system is a different matter as banks in the USA were forced by Congress to provide affordable housing to low and middle income families who previously would have been denied loans because they would have been deemed too risky. In a nutshell banks lent money to people who could not afford the mortgages on the homes that they purchased. There are 2 giant quasi-government institutions Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac that provide a secondary market in home mortgages, purchasing mortgages from the lenders who originate them. They hold some of these mortgages, and some are sold in the form of securities which they provide the guarantee. Once they announced they were financially unsound the government had to step in otherwise the whole USA housing market may have collapsed. What we are witnessing are banks and financial institutions going under because of too many loans are being defaulted upon forcing the banks to foreclose on the homes.

  8. avatar Marisa says:

    Economic vultures. Do you all know what vultures are?
    Vultures are birds that eats off dead carcass. Opportunists that only aim for leftovers.

    It’s just a simple case of the poor wants to be as rich as the rich or richer than the rich. I expect this guy with his multilevel marketing suit to propose his analysis to the international league, or medias such as Newsweekly, Forbes, Bloomberg or TIME. Why only the local media? And not exactly a mainstream one. Sounds more like good ol’ proletarian tricks to me.

    Surely I’d have a different reaction to this type of sharia experts if their intention is sincerely trying to help rehabilitating the nature of West capitalism. Sorry to say, but they’re not. Jihad is required by sharia and worldwide sharia is the goal of Jihad. It’s all about Islamic Caliphate and islamizing US, Europe, and the rest of the world. Hey, if them white Christians can do it, why can’t we? We want our share to rule the world too, you know. That’s basically what they’re trying to say, isn’t that so?

    It’s still acquired to exist, nonetheless. One thing leads to another, so let’s just assume this new progressive dynamic presently we see in Indonesia is there because it will lead to another. It’s not about sharia economics itself, it’s more about its social and political impact in future time. How does USA’s financial crisis affect Indonesia, anyhow? According to Faisal Basri on last night’s news, it has not greatly affect Indonesia, because Indonesia hasn’t reached that certain economic depth with the US that would make is as affected as, for instance, Australia. Oh wow, apparently Indonesia isn’t so westernized afterall, we just look westernized.

    While our Asian third world brains are beginning to question the worthiness of our loyalty to the Great White Hope — vice versa, America must endure whatever it is they need to endure.
    Every generation is destined to be sent to war, after Desert Storm II, let the present crisis be the next. I do absolutely agree that American financial sector must reform itself, especially after Bush administration and the way its doing things. But to sharia? Yeah right, even Arabs themselves would laugh their asses of at the idea. Whatever Indonesia sees from US for the past couple of years are politicians, bureaucrats and your everyday Republican. Not to mention it’s the election year. We haven’t seen the American working class just yet, and its force of economic aggression. Oh, and the recession expectantly would make Americans and their allies abroad to snap out of them so-called Eastern romanticism.

    In the world of economics, Dubai and Washington have already been long time buddies. That’s what typical Indonesians are not aware of. They only see Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, and actually believe that the Islamic world is under siege of the greedy American capitalist pigs. Thank that to their World War II-ish propaganda. So, why do Saudi Arabia, and yes, along with Iran and Iraq, could be economically prosperous? They have OIL! Plentiful of oil reserves. Sharia or not, they are rich by nature. Indonesia, on the other hand, does not have as much as what they have.

    Politics of sharia, just as any monarch-influenced conservative politics, are the politics that does not foresee greater human driving force. It does not recognize creativity, freedom of individual rights, science, survival instinct, and the higher values above man-imposed religion, and so forth: the X factors of humanity. It may not even recognize honesty, knowing that deceit is allowed if it’s for a permissible goal, oaths can be broken if something better comes along and truth-telling can be punished if the truth embarrasses someone. Well, well. Say hello to corruption.

    For what is created in the past, does not know the ways created in the future. They are so narrow-minded that they are using the West’s darkest past as their future, simply because they assume that that is why the West is winning. In addition to all that, they forgot one thing: communism. Eng ing eng!. Conclusively, what these people will be up against is not necessarily West capitalism (which is somewhat strongly associated with Christianity), it’s human race itself. The whole of it.

    I’d say, let them have it. In the end, it’s all about the rich and the poor, the powerful and the powerless. And how human being, regardless religion, defines each. It’s going to a great disappointment if someday they will realize, it never is about them. It’s about power, and not even God’s.

    Several examples of countries using sharia economy:
    Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Brunei Darussalam, Burkina Faso, Chad, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, Yemen.

    Let them have it.

  9. avatar Patrick says:

    @ Marissa – Brilliant analysis and you continue to impress me with your world view although I may have some slight disagreements with it from time to time. A song popped into my head while I was reading as my alter ego struggled to gain control but my alter – alter ego was having none of that so I won’t be suggesting “99 red balloons” anytime soon. Seriously, keep up the good writing! : > )

  10. avatar Marisa says:

    By the way, I am too lazy to do online research on sharia in Indonesia, I’d found nothing but a bunch of self-defending (if not offensive) blahblahblahs we’re-this, we’re-that, our-religion-is-about-this, about-that articles that informs nothing objectively educational anyways. So sick of them talking about nothing but themselves. Such feeling goes to all Indonesians in general as well, we just looooove talking about ourselves on and on, seriously. So, anyways, please do re-checks and correct above comment if there’s an error, for the reason that I was just simplifying stuffs for my own pleasure.

  11. avatar Marisa says:

    Thanks, Patrick.

  12. avatar Uncle B says:

    Tender spot hurting a lot? Other side too? bruises on your face and body throbbing? Is that blood running out your nose, skirt above your head in the wind, panties torn and soiled, titties swelling and turning blue by the minute, lost on the roadside, hoping not to die? Did you recognize the tail lights of the limo that threw you off? Was it the same limo that picked you up at election time, promising a good decent clean ride? Will you ever learn? Last time these guys did this to you, your babies were killed in Iraq and your retirement fund spent to do it, your taxes went up, you did not get destroyed by the weapons of mass destruction, they were never found. Poor little America. Our heart-felt prayers from Canada go out to you!

  13. avatar luke says:

    I can’t see one reference in this article as to how a sharia based economy is any better or any worse then a ‘western’ democratic economic infrastructure. Its as the reader is so dense that they are just going to say ‘ooooh I see, how wonderful – allah akhbar!’

    So let me research this myself as no examples are shown here at all..I could start with Dubai where I lived and did Business for over a year.

    The Dubai stock exchange would crash on regular basis there, so the CEO (oppps I mean ruler) would pump a few million dollars in to pick it up again. No one really knew the rate of inflation as the country will never publish figures but I noted it climb at a masssive rate. Sure they have a lot of big wonderful buildings but with many illegal workers from poorer companys working for a few dollars a day and keeping out of eyes view in the labor camps, it was not that much of feat.

    A quick google on ‘UAE Stocks Crash’…..

    September 08, 2008, 00:03

    Dubai: The Dubai Financial Market plunged 4.64 per cent to close at 4,471.71 and the Abu Dhabi Securities Exchange slid 3.74 per cent to end at 4,149.57 on Sunday.

    Real estate stocks continue to be battered in both the markets with Emaar Properties, Union Properties, Aldar Properties and Sorouh Real Estate falling substantially. Regional and international factors, more immediate, along with the prevailing negative sentiment led to the sudden drop, say analysts.

  14. avatar Rob says:

    The Indonesian economy is not exclusively Sharia-based. It could be best described as a mixed system of conventional and Sharia-based banking and financial services.

    There is a regulatory framework for Sharia financial services (this includes banking). Indonesia sees Sharia-based financial services as a bright dot on the horizon as it seeks to capitalize on Indonesian Muslims looking to invest in halal financial products and attract investment from the Middle East by providing halal investment products and vehicles for this investment, such as sukuk.

    Perhaps Sharia finance is about the semantics. Profit and interest by any other name is still profit and interest. Although, I am sufficiently intrigued to go out and do a little more research of my own to find out how Sharia economics is more grounded in the real economy than are other non-Sharia models.

  15. avatar Marisa says:

    Uncle B’s right. Harsh, but true.
    Can’t believe their young soldiers die out there with their necks sliced open for nothing.

  16. avatar dragonwall says:

    Patrick, what I see in your comments is what had already happened and sorry to say nothing new. I am quite sure everyone knows that. I also see that most of commentators do not go deep right into the root to inspect what actually happened!

    Portfolio managers make reports based on development of the country conditions in term of economic balance sheets GDP etc and compare them to other countries, the market supply and demand and other factors like security and etc.

    Oil is marked against USD because the OPEC agreed to use the USD as the main currency for the trade. Gold against the USD. So what other factors?

    Price of oil and gold were pushed to it’s limit above the 100 dpb and according to what you say Goldman Sachs reported that oil will reach beyond the 200 dpb.

    May I asked what is the job of Goldman Sachs or portfolio and investment managers?
    Your answer is probably to help investor make money with their prudent investments and so on, right!

    Let me tell you this. portofolio managers works with stock brokers and traders where the latter 2 makes money from commission on each trade. Portfolio Managing company do have splinter company handling the trading or broking services. Going through these companies they trade on huge volumes often together with other companies they go against or go along in each trade.
    Imagine if all go on the same trade, what is the market impact.
    If anyone recollects what Soros did? What was the market impact?

    The same thing for the oil. The price is not real at all and it just went out of control.

    Many thinks that when there is buyer there are sellers and vice versa. The fluctuation varies marginally. In the case of Soros and the world oil crisis they are the same situation. Exact replice. MANIPULATION OF THE WORST KIND.. BY WHOM? OIL PRODUCERS THEMSELVES. For what reason.. HUGE RETURN. This kind of return do not come in often and could last them for a long long time even in time of economic crisis.

    How it spiral upwards when there were profit taking and heavy selling to pressure the bull. Why I keep buying when you sell and when you buy I ride the tide. So you see, it just go limit up every session of the trade. The same thing on the bear. Same tricks nothing else.

    Understand it in most corporate take over. RETURN OF INVESTMENTS…. ALL MAN MADE. Whatever happens to the production and demand creates not that much impact just like usual buy sell trade.
    In this case of the OIL, GOLD and USD these are the extreme. Everyone is targeting the USD to cause the US economy to collapse. This is what if not mistaken in my posting in 2006 on the Soros case, I had said the same thing will happened to US when the ballon burst like in the 80’s when the Japanese balloon burst.
    Although the collapse of US economy had nothing to investors from the east it is likely the job of OPEC member countries act of reciprocity of a different kind.. if you know what I mean.

    Like what Marisa says they are mostly scavengers eyeing for the weakest spot to make their vital attack, not a simple attack but an all out attack on the US economy.
    When the asian crisis happened it affects globally especially the asian countries. Now it is the same it affects most of the countries because most of them, except the European countries that relied on the euros, relied heavily on the USD.

    I am not trying to teach you because who knows you could be a better person than I am. Make a chart yourself and see the linear regression of the price of a common stock and the oil or gold or usd or us interest rate, options and see the difference and understand the nature of the sudden surge whether upward and or downward.

    In the common market, nothing makes sense at all. There is always someone to blame, someone to take the blame and someone will have to be blame.

    The Sharia banking is religiously implicated banking system. There is nothing special or significant in a Sharia Banking system. There are people who could called their system Christian or Buddhist banking system. The only thing related to that will be religiously and it is always through someone clerics like in the case of Sharia banking.
    Just for example in any banking system, You cannot make it 2 cents if you have one and neither you only have one cents to make it 2 cents. Especially the Sharia banking that does not offer interest rates. Like in the earlier years when Swiss bank offers not interest rate and even some asked for payment for having their money place in a Swiss bank. Why. Non disclosure security and they are losing money big time. They utilize the money of depositors for interbank loan for short term interest rates So why the Sharia banking. For a cause.. you know what they are. SIMILAR.

    Whether the Sharia banking is going to be good for Indonesia, I am sure there are many who could judge better.

    As for these people who called themselves as Sharia banking experts.. I have serious doubt.

  17. avatar PrimaryDrive says:

    I find islamic banking to be a very contrived system, invented to charge interest without calling it interest.

    I also fail to see how it can the system in itself avoid from being overly greedy. It can give mortages; implying they can give bad mortages. They can invest in a company based on profit sharing. So, to play in derivative products all they need to do is to invest in a company that trade in derivative products as their business.

    Argueably, with a strong islamic culture in the back ground, islamic banks are more honest. But this is more a cultural argument, rather than banking technical.

  18. avatar Patrick says:

    @ Dragonwal – Thank you for the very valuable financial lesson as it was well appreciated by me. Yes, I have been aware some of the targeting and remember back in the Spring when currency traders from Eastern Europe attempted to take down the dollar and almost succeeded as for several days traders around the world joined in the festivities and sold off dollars in favor of Euros. Makes me wonder how involved the Russians are in seeing the USA spend itself into a similar state of economic collapse that they suffered due to the policies that Ronald Reagan put in place and on the advice of Bill Casey a few decades ago?

  19. avatar Patrick says:

    Uncle B – I see there is perma-frost between your ears! I suppose you figure that if the USA goes down the tubes than Canada will somehow magically avoid a similar collapse? Maybe you should find out who Canada’s number one trading partner is the world? And if you think that you can turn to the Chinese to buy your oil and timber who would the Chinese be taking orders from for their factories? Face it as the USA goes so does the world so hati-hati as you are gleefully jumping up and down on very thin ice!

  20. avatar purba negoro says:

    As usual, we hear the uneducated waffle of white empty vessels and self-aggrandising know-all gabble of Singaporeans, with no real substantial knowledge nor contact with those of influence in the financial industry- merely fleas attached to Chrysomallos’ golden fleece.

    I know the head and several BNI chairs personally, as well as head of BRI and a number of ex-ABRI officers holding the puppet strings and supervising their proven untrustworthy Chinese lickspittles in Danamon and Panin.

    In their learned opinion: Sharia banking in Indonesia will only ever be attractive to maximally 5% of all Indonesian banking demographic.
    Why?
    Indonesia is not a nation of simplistic, ignorant Arab worshipping Wahabbi lunatics morons like Malay-seeyah truly Ays-ee-yah
    The requisite demographic of such Malaysian-esque retards is simply too low and forever will be.
    Indonesia is a Nationalist Secular nation built by foriegn (highly) educated intellectuals and nobles.
    Malaysia is a British construct for a convenient Sheriff puppet state of Minang with identity issues, and its imported Indian and Chinese lickspittles and such opportunistic parasites.

    Indonesians are forward looking warm embracers of the modern, the mode et vogue de jour, and the West- manifested as Anglo-Celtic West or Japan/Korea etc.
    Malaysians fervently enjoy the musty tang of Arab anus.

    Shariah is nothing more than cleverly disguised Conventional banking- it cannot operate in a vacuum thus must be fully integrated within normal and best practice international banking code.
    Basically Sharia banking is giving Arabic terms to well-known Western systems:

    The basic principle of Islamic banking is the sharing of profit and loss and the prohibition of riba (usury).
    profit sharing (Mudharabah)
    safekeeping (Wadiah)
    joint venture (Musharakah)
    cost plus (Murabahah)
    and leasing (Ijarah).

    Islamic banks DO charge for the time value of money, THUS paying and receiving: interest= riba
    Islamic banking is the Arabic version of Contractum trinius- a Catholic medieval legal trick to instituionalise fixed interest rate borrowing

    Islamic law prohibits the collection of interest, it does allow a seller to resell an item at a higher price than it was bought for, as long as there are clearly two transactions.

    See- nothing to wet trousers over- just smoke, mirrors and renaming Western terms to placate our few uninformed morons.

  21. avatar dragonwall says:

    All of borrowed words, self admittance and guilt.

    Shariah is nothing more than cleverly disguised Conventional banking- it cannot operate in a vacuum thus must be fully integrated within normal and best practice international banking code.

    So you yourself admits that the Shariah Banking is actually a disguise after all! And cannot operate by itself without ann international banking code, right?
    And yet you continue by saying other banking systems are no better than the Shariah Banking system?

    So you must be the befitting person to your own saying, right?

    As usual, we hear the uneducated waffle of white empty vessels and self-aggrandising know-all gabble

    Now tell me, does the following constitute a proper banking systems, anywhere in the world? Except the Vatican.

    The basic principle of Islamic banking is the sharing of profit and loss and the prohibition of riba (usury).).

    So a person who puts money into a bank will have to share the loss your Shariah Banking suffer? Which sector do you imply? The bank’s share or the banks transaction?
    If it is for shares then that is the buy/sell that does not directly affects the bank but affects the capital value when it depreciated.
    But if it involves a bank’s transaction, for example like making a loan to person like you with no capability to returning the loan and the bank suffered a loss on bad loan, then depositors will also have to share Shanriah Banking loss?

    profit sharing (Mudharabah)

    So you are referring at the end of the year when there is a profit the Sharia Banking will share the profit on an equal footing? So what happens to the share holders? What happens when it is public listed, does the public gets dividend and bonus something like that?

    safekeeping (Wadiah)

    So you mean other banks are not safe?

    joint venture (Musharakah)

    So depositors must be involved in joining the banking venture into anything like speculation, loans, bad loans, corruptions (don’t bank officials get corrupted) etc?

    cost plus (Murabahah)

    As to this I suppose how much the bank spends, depositors will have to bear the grunt by having their deposits deducted and the bank is not obligated to give an explanation, right?

    and leasing (Ijarah

    So what does the bank get from leasing? Profit, Gain!

    So is that conflicting on what is it in the Shariah banking?

    I know the head and several BNI chairs personally, as well as head of BRI and a number of ex-ABRI officers holding the puppet strings and supervising their proven untrustworthy Chinese lickspittles in Danamon and Panin

    So those people must be so stupid as to being held on a puppet string and be supervised because according to what you said these untrustworthy Chinese lip sticking ladyboy have to be so dependent on you so called ex-ABRI officers in order to live in luxury and decadence? In another words, these people must have owed your so called ex-ABRI officers a living when they have themselves been so dependent on subsidies in order to survive.

    with no real substantial knowledge nor contact with those of influence in the financial industry- merely fleas attached to Chrysomallos’ golden fleece.

    So does that implies to you yourself? Being someone in the ex-ABRI? Or to consider yourself a lynching fleas attached to Chrysomallos’ golden fleece, then take your pick.

    Islamic banks DO charge for the time value of money, THUS paying and receiving: interest= riba

    SO you are saying that your Shariah Banking will charge a certain amount of money for placing their money in the bank. Then part of it will be used to pay interest to depositors. Ha.Ha.Ha. Ha……… TAKING FROM THE LEFT POCKET AND PUT IT IN THE RIGHT POCKET WITH A MINUS??????????????????????
    So why not tell people to just pay what your so called Sharia Banking for the existence? Instead of going a big round and come back to square one with a minus.

    I will give you an example so that you don’t just talk with no cents and yet trying to prove to people of your so called Wikipedian expertise.

    A common Indonesian household who earns an average living perhaps may get to deposit in their account approximately say 250,000 rupiahs?

    Now he deposits 250,000 rupiahs and be charged a monthly banking fee of say 25,000 rupiahs per month! and the bank in return pays him an interest of say 12% pa! So his monthly interest received will be 12 divided by 12 = 1% that is approximately 2,500 rupiahs so at the end of the day his deposit will be 250,000 plus (2,500 minus pph lets say 250 rupiahs) minus 25,000 which is equals to 252,250 less 25,000 and he is left with 227,250 rupiahs right? And the banks usually charge a fee of 1 or 2,000 rupiahs for printout perhaps!

    So this is called the Shariah Banking System..

    Islamic banking is the Arabic version of Contractum trinius- a Catholic medieval legal trick to instituionalise fixed interest rate borrowing

    And you admit Islamic is actually the Arabic version of Contractum trinius that is a medieval legal trick to institutionalize fixed interest rate borrowing….? Ah..ah..

    Islamic law prohibits the collection of interest, it does allow a seller to resell an item at a higher price than it was bought for, as long as there are clearly two transactions.

    So it is the using of WORDS! @!@ that is from charging interest to profitting from buy and sell? In a banking system? Then that must be one of the greatest invention I have heard. There must be a patent right to this creation… Wow..

    So do you See- nothing to wet trousers over- just smoke, mirrors and renaming Western terms to placate our few uninformed morons. and is that implying to you yourself or what??? Ha.Ha..Ha…

    So on the overall analyze, is that self conflicting, stealing, coniving twist and turning other ideas adopted from what is already in the market and called that your sort of prototype?

  22. avatar dragonwall says:

    Ha.ha.ha.. Patrick patrick, how you get some one offended mad through the hilt. I can see the tone that she is. Are you going to convert?

    Sharia (banking system-cum-new world order) can run if Big Brother wants it to run

    I think you are right. Like in China when the Prime Minister (the big brother of CHina) sneeze the whole country bring their savings and place them in China Trust. This is the first step of development.

    But there are lots of butssssss, you need not be an analyst. A small boy in Indonesia could tell that won’t succeed.

  23. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Dragonwall
    you’re an utter idiot. Thank-you for conforming it for those who simply suspected so with your ridiculous, humourous Singilsh and bizarre logic.

    Not only do you miss the point entirely- yet again.
    Following your bizarre logic is tiring, as is deciphering your dreadful albeit comedic English.

    The POINT of my post was to offer a very breif overview of Sharia as being merely superficial clever rebranding of conventional Western Banking systems- which the owners of most Sharia banks keenly indulge (highlighting their hypocrisy).

    Does King Faud have a hedge fund? Are wealthy Omani and UAE putting their money into Cyprus/Switzerland/Singapore/Jersey or their own Sharia banks?

    And to highlight the obvious to an idiot- NO I do not support Sharia banking- I find it a cynical and hypocritical exploitation of religion to the uneducated.
    I also do not support Hokkien Chinese and Jewish usury, profiteering, middleman mark-ups, marginal credit, highly leveraged debt or negative gearing both responsible for the 1998 currency meltdown and today’s credit crunch.

  24. avatar dragonwall says:

    Right, you admitted how idiotic you are.. Do you really think that no one understands what you wrote?

    You pointed out to show your knowledge into Sharia banking that even idiots like you could pinpoint the existence of Sharia banking is actually a cover up all nonsense banking system under the religious hood in a highly religious country like Indonesia.

    And right, because even you find it a cynical and hypocritical exploitation of religion to the uneducated.

    An yet there are people claiming to be experts in Sharia banking.

    Does King Faud have a hedge fund? Are wealthy Omani and UAE putting their money into Cyprus/Switzerland/Singapore/Jersey or their own Sharia banks?

    Of course they do with part of it, otherwise how do they convince others into believing their so called Sharia banking. And those pioneer of the Haj and the so called staunch believer of Islam like what you mentioned pretending to embrace the religion and give name brand as Sharia banking.

    So does that makes you one of the Pretender too? Does people like you consider yourself a pribumi using the Islamic religion as a guise for covering up a lot of things besides banking, like fighting for a cause politically etc?

    You don’t even get my point or come close as to playing their game in religion but talk all nonsense.

    No wonder someone told me that you were baiting people into your schematic forever racist comments. I would consider not baiting but more like masterbating.

  25. avatar sputjam says:

    Don’t really know much about aussie rules football, but i know that syariah banking is suppose to fool God into thinking that it is an interest free system.

    For a country such a indonesia, micro-financing may work better to alleviate the poor masses in the rural areas from the clutches of loan sharks, who work hand in hand with industrial conglomerates, to enslave the poor. I know that rubber/palm oil smallholders have their dues paid late by the palm oil refiners/rubber traders, who issued them coupons instead of cash. These coupons are then redeemed at a discount by loan sharks, who collect the actual sum weeks later for a hefty profit.

    Last I heard, subprime has reach the shores of germany(Hyppo) and banks from a neighbour that benefited from the last asian crisis of 1998 is holding masses of subprime CDL notes and may be hit. How big a hit, i am unsure.

  26. avatar David says:

    Don’t really know much about aussie rules football

    Sorry sputjam, just moved the football talk, and some other things to world football codes, but I don’t expect you’ll be going there…

  27. avatar Marisa says:

    OOT (or is it?)
    Grats to US Congress for passing the Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008. The act is presumptively for extending investment tax credit program for renewable energy project. Concerning the matter, Europe has been the global pioneer in solar energy with Spain and Germany operating the largest photovoltaic plants in the world. In Asia, Japan led the technology with their zero emission nuclear power plants. US of A is predicted to be the next in line — oh, them capitalist pigs just gotta be in everyone’s line, don’t they!? How typical.

    The news hasn’t been hyped over abroad, since everyone’s (economic vultures and all their kind) still celebrating the US financial crisis, some perhaps still confusing over why the Congress hasn’t passed the financial bailout bill. If expanding the subject to Iraq war (and billions of dollars spent out of tax money) would be considered too far off topic, then we might as well analyze on how the crisis corresponds to the economics of energy.

    Patsolicious, nice choice of songs, but I’m thinking Bill Withers’ Ain’t No Sunshine. Nothing like the blues in times like these, no?

  28. avatar IDX Fun Manager says:

    No crisis in Indonesia!!!

    Only a bunch of stupid stock speculator connected to President & political party lost a lot lot lot of money for next election campaign.

    They try to save their money by proposing all this stupid action such as closing IDX, forbid short selling, and suggesting lowering interest.
    Worse: now some smartashole observer proposing bailout.

    What to bailout???
    No bank go bust/bankcrupt, only political party has less money for campaign

    The main problem with SBY: he love media, while he ignore the people.
    he open IDX (Indonesia stock exchange ) to get a media shot.
    Now IDX crash, he afraid his image is tarnished.
    Well, that is not possible.
    He has no image!!!
    What a stupid president with PhD degree from stupid Whore Professor!!!

  29. avatar dragonwall says:

    I guess you are right. No one is admitting the crisis. Face no truth cowards in the making.

    The one thing about Indonesia stock market is the worst thing I have ever seen. When China had it strictly controlled with not short selling they guarantees buy back of any shares sold.
    Whereas Indonesia there is nothing, when you tried to disposed off your share, it is like taking a shot in space.

    The was a bailout earlier, didn’t you know? Thr Porong disaster. Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust.

    SBY and most President only listened to their advisors. His education is purely academic and with his hands tied, none is his cabinet is supportive to any efforts he made, so there is not much he could do.

  30. avatar Patrick says:

    “The Bell Rang”composed October 9, 2008

    The bell rang
    The many voices sang
    In dozens of countries in distant lands
    Chasing the price of crude
    Up! Up! Up! Was the mood
    Yes all was good

    Then one day it all went away
    All their fears gave way
    The many voices cried
    Their beloved markets died
    Chaos took the place of their pride
    Now no money left for food
    Yes all was not good

    From Japan to Iran
    All destroyed that was built by man
    The many voices laughed
    As the raging storm sunk their crafts
    Even the Great Uncle Sam could not stand
    All sucked into the earth like quicksand
    Yes all was not understood

    Their financial gods had been proven liars
    All their beliefs were destroyed by the greed they sired
    The people had strayed so many voices prayed
    Let there be new buyers
    Louder and louder sang the choir
    Make the prices go higher! and higher!
    Yes all again would be good

    The final bell rang
    All the people sang
    But no money changed hands
    In dozens of countries in distant lands
    No oil left them all in turmoil
    Down! Down! Down! Was the mood
    Yes all remembered when it was good

Comment on “US Financial Crisis”.

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