Dutch War Crimes

Sep 9th, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

Lairedion on the Dutch state being sued over war crimes at Rawagede, West Java.

Dutch State sued by Indonesians

On Monday 8 September 2008 10 Indonesian survivors of Dutch post WWII violence have sued the Dutch State for the assassination of their family members during the First Police Action (Agresi Militer Belanda I) after WW II. They want financial compensation, explanations and recognition for their suffering, as announced by their lawyer Mr. Gerrit Jan Pulles.

According to Pulles it is for the first time Indonesian victims of the fighting of 1945-1949 hold the Dutch State responsible. Mr. Pulles acts on behalf of ten villagers from Rawagede, West Java. They survived the bloody attack of the Dutch Army on 9 December 1947. According to the Dutch Honorary Debts Foundation, 431 (almost all the male) villagers were slaughtered. According to the Dutch Indulgence Note from 1969 150 people were killed. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has announced they will study the matter.

Well into 2008, 63 years after Indonesian independence, the Dutch, due to their stubbornness, ignorance and patronizing behaviour, are being haunted again by their crimes in the aftermath of Soekarno's declaration of 17-8-45 and they rightfully should. Only just being liberated themselves from the Germans the Dutch wanted to continue the situation as it was before WWII and re-occupy their former territories now being declared independent and bearing the name Republik Indonesia.

Rawagede is one of the most notorious events in the history of Indonesian struggle for independence against the Dutch. On 9 December 1947 Dutch forces raided the West Javanese village to look for weapons and Indonesian freedom fighter Lukas Kustario who often spent time in Rawagede. They didn't find any weapons neither did they find Lukas.


Survivors of Rawagede remember (full version of documentary linked in footnotes).

Apparently dissatisfied by their lack of success the Dutch commander directed all males to be separated from the rest in order to execute all of them, despite the fact there were some young males of 11-12 years old among them. Indonesian leaders reported the mass killing to local UN officials. The UN made an inquiry and concluded the killings were "deliberate" and "ruthless" but failed to prosecute and to have the Dutch punished and sentenced for these obvious crimes against humanity and this is still the situation today!

Last month Pulles (of mixed Indo-Dutch blood like yours truly) visited Rawagede together with people from the "Yayasan Komite Utang Kehormatan Belanda (KUKB)", including its chairman Jeffry Pondaag, to collect witness accounts and endorsements from survivors in order to hold the Dutch State responsible.


A protest outside Dutch embassy in Jakarta.

While financial compensation is sought after it must be noted that most survivors only want the Dutch State to take moral responsibility and offer official apologies to the Indonesian people. Furthermore they do not seek punishments for the people directly involved in the killings. One survivor just wants the Dutch not to forget what has happened.

At the same time more and more Dutch veterans, haunted by the crimes and horror they experienced, are supportive of the Rawagede survivors' claim. It is very disappointing to see that of all the Dutch political parties only the left-wing Socialist Party support the claim while the conservative-liberal VVD on behalf of MP spokesman Hans van Baalen even denied Dutch crimes against humanity in Indonesia! 63 years of ignorance and subtle racism have been persistent obviously, a disease many Western nations still suffer from.

It is because of this the KUKB has been founded by Netherlands-based Indonesian Jeffy Pondaag in 2005. They demand the Dutch government:

  1. to recognize 17 August 1945 as the day Indonesia became independent.
  2. to offer apologies to the Indonesian people for its colonialism, slavery, gross violations of human rights and crimes against humanity.

The foundation is a non-subsidized independent foundation with branches in the Netherlands and Indonesia and would be happy to accept any donations. They look after the interests of civilian victims who suffered from violence and war crimes committed by Dutch military. Their website have more information on the Rawagede story and on the infamous Raymond Westerling who murdered thousands of innocent people in South Sulawesi.

Back in 2005 Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirayuda, obviously speaking on behalf of the Indonesian people, made it clear Indonesia is not seeking apologies or compensation from the Dutch. This reaction came after then Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot (who is Jakarta-born) expressed regrets and morally accepted the de-facto independence of Indonesia on 17-8-45 while he was representing the Dutch government during the festivities of Independence Day on 17-8-2005. Bot's remarks were widely criticized in the Dutch media for being insufficient and way too short of a full apology and recognition of 17-8-45.

Of course it is irrelevant if Indonesia is demanding apologies or compensation or not. It should come from the Dutch themselves but their stubbornness and ignorance are still hindering them anno 2008. The Netherlands have constantly refused to express a full apology and recognition but were always quick to raise their finger and lecture its former colony on alleged human rights violations during the Soeharto reign.

I'm fully supportive of the Rawagede villagers and any future similar cases, seeking for Dutch responsibility, recognition and financial compensation. Evidence is clear, witnesses and next of kin are still alive, we're dealing with war crimes, gross violation of human rights and crimes against humanity and here lies an opportunity for the Dutch to finally deal with its own past by recognizing and helping those poor villagers.

Sources and links:

News article from Dutch daily "Parool" (Dutch) : Indonesiërs klagen Nederlandse staat aan

Website of KUKB (Dutch and Indonesian): Yayasan Komite Utang Kehormatan Belanda

1948 (English) Word document approx. 7.8 MB: Report of the Rawahgedeh observation team

Broadcast of Dutch news show Netwerk with topic on this story: Netwerk 8 September 2008 (witness accounts from survivors (Dutch-Indonesian-Sundanese). Streaming media, requires broadband internet access.


826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”

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  1. avatar kinch says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 10:04 am

    Jolly good. And here lies a good opportunity for indonesians to set an example by apologising to and compensating (let’s be brief and ignore some cases) the papuans and the east timorese for the long list of human rights violations perpetrated against same.

    Don’t suppose there were ever any atrocities committed against dutch civilians by indonesian freedom fighters during this time either… nope… sure that never happened.

    As for actual independence itself, it’s my understanding that by the late 40s, the dutchies had you on the run and held most of the ground… and that it was various other bule nations which (given the anti-colonialist tenor of the times) put the economic squeeze on the dutch.

    Perfectly reasonable thing to want to be free.. perfectly reasonable to even fight and kill for it… but time you children grew up and started being adults – which means looking with cold eyes at both sides of the scales (not to mention what has actually been achieved in the last 60 odd years).

    Left-wing western media and pressure groups will always get a sexual thrill from self-flagellation… if you guys want to get off on their ‘beat me’ mentality, well good for you – but overindulgence in this kind of game isn’t good for you either :)

  2. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 10:09 am

    Kinch,

    Your basic logic is like a schoolkids.

    We’re talking about the Dutch here. The citizens filing the lawsuit had nothing to do with Papua or East Timor.

    It’s not the Indonesian state filing the lawsuit.

    It’s citizens…

    Sounds like you’re a bit touchy about it. Bottom line is Europe colonized half the world and there’s gotta be some payback sometime.

    The Dutch even made the fledgling Indonesian state pay for the war !

  3. avatar Andy says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    Let’s just imagine for one moment the Utopian world we would live in if the dutch destroyed the pribumi in a rage and wiped them out.

    Can you just imagine it….The South East Asian region world be infinitely safer without war criminals and terrorists strutting their stuff and we would be spared the tiresome nonsense of some of the bloggers on this forum. No prizes for guessing who i’m talking about.

    My country and other neighbouring countries (Singapore for example) which are beacons of human rights would also be spared the need for such a large security budget knowing we would have more trustworthy neighbours and a much safer region to live in.

  4. avatar Kang Kabayan says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Andy,

    so just tell all the dutch men to go back to Indonesia, recolonize it, plunder it, torture it. Tell them to go back to their own natural behavior, Like father like son. We won’t believe their humanism even if they are pretending for thousands years.

  5. avatar Andy says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    Kang maybe I will (tell the dutch to re colonise) …..In fact they just might improve it for all. They couldn’t do a worse job running the country than the sorry javanese mob who have run it down and put the money into their own selfish pockets these last 63 years. Many railway lines for example that were built by the dutch have gone to ruin. Seems hard for the pribumi to swallow this truth.

  6. avatar sputjam says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    The dutch would have seized indonesia and wiped out the natives if the weather isn’t so hot and humid. The only colonies granted independence were the ones with untolerable weather.

  7. avatar Andy says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    Good point sputjam…not to mention intolerable food and water hence the high rate of diarrhoea amongst both locals but particularly expats living there.
    But I think the reason the dutch lost was because firstly they were spent from fighting the Nazis for years and also as kinch pointed out western countries (like Australia) supported the independence movement. I guess when the Indonesians go into a fit of anti Australian and nationalistic rage they choose to selectively forget that.

  8. avatar Mets says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    Under Geneva Convention & and statute of the International Criminal Court, the Indonesian Society needs to be given recognition by their oppressors that they were victims of war crime !!!

  9. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

    Well done- Indonesia should punish the Dutch and totally bankrupt their depraved Nazi-like state.

    Nice schoolboy logic Andy. Strange I do not hear such disgusting comments directed toward your beloved Jews?

    What of the Chinese and their murder of hundreds of Malays for assisting the Japanese- who were so terribly the placed Malaysians in positions of power and grnated them education (replacing the former British installed Chinamen)?

    Your arguments demand genocide for whom?
    For the benefit of the Vichy-esque unapologetic illegal immigrants finally getting a tiny measure of payback for their murderous and greedy colonial collaboration.

    War criminals- not one has been charged by the International War Crimes Tribunal.
    The UN has not issued any Call for their arrest.
    Papua and
    Your claim is then based on common Chinese lies, gossip and NGO propaganda.
    Neither has George Bush Jnr- how many people has he killed compared to any Indonesian- for what? Nationalism or oil?

    The West wails and pull out hair about Apartheid and Nelson Mandela
    BUT
    forgets Dutch Colonialisation of Indonesia was precisely Apartheid.
    White rule, alien immigrants- Chinese installed as plantation manager, tax-collector, administration and bureaucrat.

    The majority- hated and excluded from all education, positions of responsibility and rule of their own lands.

    You did not know the Catholics like the Jesuit were routinely jailed and tortured for teaching pribumi basic literacy- did you?

    The Dutch killed well over 3m million Javanese in a period of 10 years during Cultuurstelsel.
    Out of a population less than 25- maybe 30/35 million.
    Thus the Dutch proportionally killed more Javanese than the Nazis killed Jews.

    Culturstelsel used stolen pribumi lands and enslaved peasants to work these lands farming only cash-crops.
    Chinese were used by the Dutch to run the plantations and extract taxation.

    It was only certain Labour movements such as Lang’s anti-Colonial stance as well as Northern Territory dock workers.

    The Dutch ‘lost’ because the world finally saw through Dutch lies and saw their true brutality- and they had spent most of their Marshall Aid money on the war to retake Indonesia.
    Indonesia contributed 70% of Dutch GDP at the time.

    The Dutch had completely lost- it is self-delusional lies they tell themselves for rolling on Nazi invasion and being keen and decorated Nazi soldiers.
    Dutch had strategically lost. They were out-fought by a superior adversary.
    The arms issue was solved- the Soviets were ready to fully arm us Nationalists- we would have expelled the depraved Dutch exactly like the Vietnamese did the Americans- ha they not abandoned Indonesia to save face.

    IF Dutch had not pulled out of Sulawesi, Manada and Irian, we already had, under Suharto’s plans, detailed plans to fully expel them and totally eradicate their presence.
    Strategic withdrawal/retreat is not defeat- it is a means to draw the enemy thinly.
    Without the British- the Dutch would have been very easily defeated- it was merely a matter of time.
    Maybe one day Kinch- I show you my father’s shrunken Dutch soldier head collection.

    The Dutch people themselves were still living in desperate post-war conditions as their government wasted millions attempting to reimpose their apartheid.
    I know Dutch people who complained they went without food while the Dutch tried to recapture their Indies.

    The issue of alleged crimes against Dutch civilians is totally ludicrous. The Dutch administration enforced total white privilege living as white lords on a stolen land with brown servants insulated and Chinese lackeys stealing lands and taxing the brown man.

    The Dutch had no right to be their in the first instance.
    Trespassers are shot on site in the West even today. Dutch- like their keen Chinese brown-nosers were offered citizenship of Indonesia- if they pledge full loyalty to the nation (exactly like modern global -including Dutch and US citizenship laws)
    They refused.

    Singapore is a British outpost paid in full buy US and UK soft loans to establish a permanent forward operations base for wars against Communism- especially since the West was very worried Indonesia would turn socialist or communist.

    Then- the Dutch forced Indonesia to pay 4 billion in reparations as the price for its’ freedom- debts incurred by the Dutch for their murder against us.

    More class actions must be made against the Dutch state.

    The patronising white arrogance is disgusting- time we grew up?

    No- this is just the very beginning.
    The Dutch will be made to pay, and we shall drag them by their ear to do so.
    We have thousands of foreign authored as well as Indonesian documents on their well proven war crimes- including Operasie Krai, and the Police Actions- where civilians were routinely strafed and bombed.

  10. avatar Oigal says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    One coud be cynical and say the dutch already gave the javanese a nation, certainly it would be hard to explain any other way regions and provinces with no ethnic, religious or custom commonality being part of the same nation (besides Invasion and conquest of course). One would assume the various regents, local rulers and their famlies who sold their fellows down the river will subject to further downstream suits.

    Ok that should wind the the xenos up, seriously personally I hope it goes the whole way, villagers get a few pennies, lawyers get rich and everyone lies. Should get even more interesting as the civil suit mentaility takes hold..more than one current politician in Indonesia will be getting a bit sweaty.

    I am a bit puzzled by some of the more bizarre xeno statments which degrade the whole article..

    ignorance and subtle racism have been persistent obviously, a disease many Western nations still suffer from.

    Uh uh as opposed to the liberal and free Asian Nations… why stoop the to stupid, racist comment..

    Back in 2005 Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirayuda, obviously speaking on behalf of the Indonesian people, made it clear Indonesia is not seeking apologies or compensation from the Dutch.

    They want financial compensation, explanations and recognition for their suffering,

    Thats trouble with cut n paste you often end up destroyign your own debate point.

    Which is it “L” was Hassy speaking for the Indonesian people or not?..Cearly not since when has any Indonesian Polly truely represented the people.

  11. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Oigal-
    uncharacteristically you make intelligent points.

    I am most impressed.
    It is a good argument- but pre-existing definitions of a Javanese centric ‘Indonesia’ predate the Dutch.
    It is not entirely true Indonesia is based on Mataram or Majapahit- it would look very different- including parts of modern Cambodia.
    What Indonesia is, essentially is a giant compromise. Religious, ethnic, territorial etc

    Nations like Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore are artificaily non-historic constructs of post war.
    In an ideal world- all would be part of Indonesia as Sumaterans and Malaysians are almost identical culturally etc.

    Singapore was always was a “Malay” (meaning Moslem Indian of Malay archipelago) possession.
    The British found it more suitable to their needs if occupied by relatively wealthier and higher skilled/educated Chinese fleeing the naives of Malaysia.

    Your question can be asked of the West.

    Since 85%+ of all US tax revenue is from Fortune 500 companies, not salary-earner.
    Who then are their true electorate?

    Is this scenario repeated in all Western nations?
    I would suggest a very strong argument exists that it does/

    In this part of the world- one thing we all share:
    we are all puppets of the US and UK.

  12. avatar Andy says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/indonesia

    ok guys read this and see if any of the western countries Indonesians dislike (or are jealous of) rate this badly

  13. avatar perseus says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

    I am not sure if this action will get anywhere. War is Hell and if we start seeking compensation for everyone whose lives and interests were damaged in the wars of the past we shall be tied up in litigation until hell freezes over. The war ended. There was a peace treaty and recognition of independence and that will be the end of it. This may not be perfect but it is the way of states. If you are going to try and get the Dutch to “compensate” these people for their suffering, who is going to compensate the families of the half million Communists killed in the Year of Living Dangerously?

    I think lines need to be drawn under these things and people need to move on. Tell the stories and seek apologies by all means. Ensure the history is taught so the mistakes are (hopefully) not repeated.

    My Irish Catholic ancestors were dispossessed by English Protestants way back when. Should I sue for restitution now? Where do we stop this kind of proceeding?

  14. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Oigal,

    Pretty simple.

    The Dutch colonized Indonesia. They taxed the ports, controlled the big cities, and turned big swatches of the interior into plantations. Forced labour, massacres, you name it, they did it.

    There’s a debate amongst economic historians (which I don’t expect you to know about), about whether or not Indonesia was a net gain or loss, in the last few decades of the 20th century.

    It’s also true they couldn’t have done it without the cooperation of local kings, rajas and strongmen. They only really controlled the whole of the territory for about 50, not 350 years as well.

    But profit they did, overall.

    You think that’s fair ?

  15. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Andy-
    who takes Amnesty International seriously?

    They even wet their diapers about Australian prisoner- they are just an extreme Leftist agitator and gossip monger.

    No one cares anyway- aside from armchair activista trying to recapture his 1970′s bourgoisie revolutionary days.

    The chattering classes are indeed a dreadful curse for the West- you should tax them more- so they have less disposable income subsidising their idle time planning their next armchair revolution.

    Am-Ints’ ridiculous and ludicrous claims are based on gossip, rumour and hearsay.

    If Amnesty International truly had concrete evidence- why is it not before the UN Human Rights Commission?

    Every time Amnesia International is challenged to substantiate their outlandish claims- all of their documents are suddenly beyond top secret, cannot be produced and their “witnesses” are all in dire straits fearing their lives- even though living in Western nations.

    Talk and slander is very cheap.

    All I can say is not enough terrorist and traitor killed.

    Let us make Amnesty International really soil their diaper. I think now is the time to re-apply more serious pressure to Irian, Maluku and Acehnese traitor.

    The West has set the precedence- therefore it is only just we are allowed same liberty.

  16. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    The best descriptor for Amnesty International is” crocodile tears”.

  17. avatar Andy says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 4:42 am

    Purba-The West has set the precedence- therefore it is only just we are allowed same liberty.

    Oh yeah? If that was the case our prisons would be full of minority races which have committed the heinous crime of well…..flying a different flag. Instead foreigners (Indonesians included) have taken to burning our nation’s flag on the streets when their chosen home hasn’t followed what the country which they chose to leave wanted. But you know we are comfortable as a mature democracy that at the end of the day they won’t try to secede or kill or invade us. Because deep down they prefer to live amongst us no matter what they bitch about.

    Also when was the last time Tasmania or Queensland wanted to secede from the Commonwealth? Or Texas from the USA? If a country’s worth living in and treats ALL citizens equally and justly NOBODY would want to leave or form their own country. History shows that.

  18. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 7:24 am

    @ Andy

    You are a typical White-is-best whincing Ossie.

    Care to explain Quebec?

  19. avatar Berlian Biru says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 8:42 am

    Whilst I’m no apologist for Dutch or any other European colonialism I don’t think it is entirely accurate to describe the post war Dutch attitude to Indonesia as;

    “The Dutch wanted to continue the situation as it was before WWII and re-occupy their former territories now being declared independent and bearing the name Republik Indonesia.”

    After the Second World War the Dutch realised there was no chance of a return to the pre-war East Indies, they recognised that their time was up but what they were looking for was a way out in their terms and those terms would be a loosely federated nation of small states over which they could retain some influence in much the same way as the British were to do in Malaysia and Singapore. They were fighting Sukarno and his Republicans rather than against Indonesian independence per se. I know that on the ground such subtle differentiations meant little to the average Indonesian but it is worth pointing out to counter the notion that the Dutch were like the Bourbons, swanning back simply to take up where they left off, totally ignoring the facts of history. The Dutch are many things but they aren’t stupid.

    I think what is most astonishing about the war of Independence is the sheer imbalance in the relative death tolls of the opposing sides. Between 1945-49, about 2000 “imperialist” troops were killed but the majority of them were actually Japanese and the British accounted for more than half of the remainder! Which means that only about 300 Dutch soldiers were killed by Indonesian guerrillas. In contrast anything between 25 000 to maybe 100 000 Indonesians were killed. However what is important to remember is that whilst a large number of those Indonesians would have been killed by the British and Dutch, an even larger number would have been Indonesians killed by other Indonesians. We only have to look at 1965 and indeed 1998 to see how the breakdown of proper authority in this country always gives Indonesians the chance to even old scores against despised social and ethnic groups on a massive scale.

    Given that, it might be more appropriate not to open old wounds, perhaps some rather unsavoury acts carried out by people loyal to the Republic might also have to be addressed.

  20. avatar sputjam says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 10:01 am

    Dutch are racist. they were in south africa and indonesia and treats others like animals. The nazis occupied netherlands with very little resistance, unlike in france.
    Even today, the dutch of belgium does not get along with their french speaking counterparts.

  21. avatar Oigal says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 10:20 am

    It is not entirely true Indonesia is based on Mataram or Majapahit- it would look very different- including parts of modern Cambodia.

    Interesting, you so fully support my cynical case.. Cambodia, Mataram or any of the other subject nations of the time should make claims on the current Javanese population for wealth “stolen” during that time. Or is there a time limit..who decides..back to white colonisation only (well that’s a lot safer or there will be some monster bill coming out of the provinces over the next few years).

    In reality (to quote ASSMAD) it’s not fair but it is history and happened. To apply todays values to things that happened 200, 300, 400 years ago is not a practical solution (which is one of the issues that religion faces every day but thats another thread). Would it not be better to work with other nations to improve the education and well being of Indonesians today? Do you really think the “we are the victim of the evil colonial powers..give us money” is really going to help?

    People can keep blaming the evil white fellas for plundering and pillaging or wake up and take control of their destiny..Some examples perhaps Japan, Sth Korea essentially destroyed and now? Indonesia…yet to awaken, question is will she before the new generation of unaccountable Raja’s sell the nation out from underneath the people once again

  22. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 10:27 am

    Oigal,

    The “thing” you’re talking about happened in the 1940s, not the 1740s. The Dutch forced the Indonesians to pay for the cost of the war, depriving a fledgling country critical capital in its first decade.

    Besides, you’re missing the point. It’s not the government that’s asking for this reparation — it’s a small group of individuals. The government has more or less buried the issue.

  23. avatar Oigal says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 10:52 am

    Please pay attention Assamd.. I am pretty sure I said good luck to them..Sorry to we expand the thread to quickly for you..

    However if you wish to narrow it down to

    just a small group of individuals

    whats the point of the statement

    The Dutch forced the Indonesians to pay for the cost of the war, depriving a fledgling country critical capital in its first decade.

    Do try and stay on message..it’s basic “SPIN” 101

  24. avatar Andy says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 11:43 am

    @ Andy (AAB)

    You are a typical White-is-best whincing Ossie.

    Care to explain Quebec?

    Sure I can…Quebec is a French speaking province of Canada and became one without a shot fired. Canada was colonised by both the French and British. The French were there first too. Quebec although proudly French speaking and cultured is still is a part of Canada so no seperatism there.

    Anyway, I did specifically mention Australia and USA. So why mention Canada in the first place. And spare the insults mate-your supposed to be observing Ramadan remember…..

  25. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Hi Oigal,

    Yes, I should’ve explained the middle sentence, specially for someone like you. Here’s what I should’ve added.

    In my opinion, there’s a case for reparations. In their police action from 1945-1950 the Dutch destroyed alot of valuable infrastructure, damaging future prospects for economic growth.

    Forcing Indonesia to pay for the war meant valuable capital for investment during Indonesia’s first democratic decade was lost. The real reason the international diplomatic community opposes reparations it’d open up a can of worms and rupture the fragile conventions between states, particularly former rulers and the ruled.

    (I’m sure that’s just Jim Dandy with you, as was “Australia for the White Man,” and not giving aboriginals the vote until 1967. That’s just the way things were done, after all. Have a beer mate, maybe on lands peasants were kicked off to build your golf course).

    But the individuals aren’t going that far.

  26. avatar Oigal says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    Tsk Tsk ASSMAD..

    there’s a case for reparations. In their police action from 1945-1950 the Dutch destroyed alot of valuable infrastructure, damaging future prospects for economic growth.

    Typical, smug latte sipping, prentenious reponse from the silver arse chair of the over educated under smart. That may well be your opinion but what is your solution to the obvious problem..Where does it stop.. You are obviously a supporter of reparations to Tim Tim then? The Javanese Raja’s who dispossed the serfs of their lands? Papua is gunna be a hoot? Malaysia must have case after the misbegotten Indonesia and failed invasion (ok I use the term loosely). Its a throw away opinion that aviods all the hard issues (gee what did we expect)

    Ah the Aboriginals, I was wondering when that red herring to the topic at hand would come up although its makes a mockery of your earlier comment

    The “thing” you’re talking about happened in the 1940s, not the 1740s.

    (Do try and remember what we said about staying on message).

    It really is a banal, silly and immature agrument to make. You cannot apply today’s values to what happened 200 plus years ago (Do you really want to go into a 200 year old history lesson about what was going on in Java at the time..not as noble as painted). Australia and any number of other nations were going to be “settled” it was just a matter of who and when, not fair but fact never the less.

    However, you will find that the overwhelming majority of Australians (as opposed to the rich plundering elite in Indonesia) are more than prepared to make amends in whatever way is realistically practical. Unfortunately (I am the first to admit, I do not have a clue how to do it in a fair and equitable manner) its an extermely complex and ongoing issue. Full title to traditional lands..who are those owners? Money..been tried and absolute disaster?..Do tell if you have any ideas besides mindless baiting (ok ..just kidding thats way beyond your ability and not fair to test it).

    Ah the vote (another Australian bad but like all things relative).. speaking of excluded minority groups..Help me out here, do tell when did women get the vote in Indonesia? (uk or USA for that matter just for fun) or is it only darker skin people that are of concern. Whilst we are on about poor black white relationships..If thats the case, whats the current ASSMAD opinion on Dafur..how are those Muslims going with voting rights?. I won’t even tease you about some of the famed Middle Eastern Countries, thats to easy..

    Last sentence not really on topic but hey you seem to enjoy that..

    That was mildy distracting.. TO BRING IT BACK TO THE TOPIC.. My point has always been..good luck to them but realistically where and how to draw the line (Might be better if you bowed out Assmad, it would make a nice change to get a rational opinion for once)

  27. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Oigal- your vast Ostrayan ignorance of fact is showing yet again.

    Serfdom did not exist in Java. PLenty of scholastic material available. But- these books are even thicker than you.

    By definition serfs do not own land- they are tithed to it and the manor lord. A peasant may own land.

    Maybe you master your own language, then emotive volatility first, and then you can master reading books without colour in pictures.

    Put down the New Idea and please turn off A Current Affair

  28. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

    This says it all:

    Australia and any number of other nations were going to be “settled” it was just a matter of who and when, not fair but fact never the less.

    Nice Oigal, the “Bungs” and “Abbos” deserved to die.

    But yes, let’s stay on message.

    What do you think of the Dutch police action ?

  29. avatar sputjam says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    The chinese are seeking the japanese to compensate for the use of comfort women and loss of prisoners treated as guinea pigs in biological warfare.
    Only the italians compensated libya for their excessive use of force whilst under occupation. But the italians forgot about ethiopia as there is no energy resource there.
    The Acehnese should be compensated too, for being deprived of a nationhood by indonesia.

    As for the aussies desire to settle with the aboroginese, forget it. it will never happen. If by chance, the aborogine takes over australia, you will see similar pribumi/immigrants battle being pursued like in zimbabwe, bolivia/venezuela and malaysia.

  30. avatar Rob says:
    September 10th, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    Andy…

    I am just wondering about Singapore being a beacon of human rights. I thought that the Singapore way was to sue the opposition into either bankruptcy or jail — if my understanding is true then I am not sure as an Australian I want to be part of the same beacon of human rights that Singapore is.

    I think PN, Achmad, and AAB are enjoying the challenge of baiting you. I also think you are enjoying the challenge of replying in kind. I am yet to be convinced that they are in fact Indonesians. The usual response is “you don’t think Indonesians can speak good English?” However, this is just a ruse to deflect attention. As a matter of fact I know many Indonesians with better English language skills than these three. I also know many Indonesians who can construct a solid and sustainable argument that does not degenerate into trading of insults.

    There preferred method is to stereotype all white folk, all bules, all westerners, or all foreigners and then tar and feather them with the same brush. You do a similar thing when you use terms like your people and all Indonesians. These three impersonators are not representative of the vast majority of Indonesians.

    PN…

    who takes Amnesty International seriously?

    They even wet their diapers about Australian prisoner- they are just an extreme Leftist agitator and gossip monger.

    No one cares anyway- aside from armchair activista trying to recapture his 1970’s bourgoisie revolutionary days.

    The chattering classes are indeed a dreadful curse for the West- you should tax them more- so they have less disposable income subsidising their idle time planning their next armchair revolution.

    This is some of your best insults for a while. Lacking on substance, but fun to read. Amnesty is far from an extreme left wing agitator and it is hardly only armchair activistas that are involved.

    Sputjam…

    Perhaps everyone has racist tendencies and perhaps the Dutch are no more guilty of racism than say Australians, Brits, Americans, Chinese, or even Indonesians.

    Nice day to all.

    BTW…I think the Dutch government should pay up with an apology at the very least and an acknowledgment of what transpired. Where there are living victims they should be compensated financially on an individual basis. Finally, the Dutch government should provide a community fund that can be used to develop the local community.

    That is just my view…

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