Islam vs Liberal Democracy

Aug 29th, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

Perseus on Francis Fukuyama and whether Islamism will derail Indonesia's new democracy.

In a recent article, writing in reaction to Russia's recent "clobbering" of Georgia, the noted American political theorist Francis Fukuyama, best known for his work The End of History, tells us [1] that

US dominance is slipping.

and the

Russian and Chinese model of authoritarianism and modernisation offers a clear challenge to liberal democracy.

Even so Fukuyama assures us that liberal democracy will still prevail because "democracy and capitalism have no real competitors." Says Fukuyama:

"Democracy's only competitor in the realm of ideas is radical Islamism but the appeal of this kind of medieval Islamism is limited.

Despite recent authoritarian advances:

liberal democracy remains the strongest, most broadly appealing idea out there.

and even autocrats pay lip service to democratic rituals and grovel before capitalism.

Yet he concludes that autocratic regimes like Russia and China have nothing to offer beyond nationalism. They lack the brawn, cohesion and ideas required to dominate the global system and they don't dream of overthrowing the globalized economy.

It seems to me that Fukuyama is broadly correct. Liberal democracy for all its imperfections remains the most attractive show in town. But will Indonesia persist with its nascent democracy or will it take the path of sharia, dismantle Pancasila and embark on a more Islamist path? And what effect would this have on Indonesia's economic development and political stability?


57 Comments on “Islam vs Liberal Democracy”

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  1. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 3:19 am

    democracy will prevail in Idnonesia.
    But according to our Constitution- Demokrasi tetapi bukan LIBERALISME.

    We Indonesians abhor the nonsense gay-marriage pro-sexual deviancy Liberalism and Human Rights bleeding hearts brigade like the bubonic plague they are. Never will Western bed-wetting type Leftist democracy or Imperialist Corporatist democracy ever win.

    And neither Islam- Frankly, the Nationalists have far too much money and massive military clout to allow loud idiot from Pesantren to ruin them.

    The West forgets for 32 years this was a Nationalist military nation. They have not simply faded away.

  2. avatar Brett says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 7:18 am

    We hear so little non-US commentary on this issue. I would be interested to hear whether Fukuyama believes that the US still constitutes a “liberal democracy”, given it doesn’t seem to stack up against Larry Diamond’s eleven point conceptualisation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

    And how long does he think it will take for liberal democracy to prevail over Chinese “authoritarianism”? Another 50 years?

  3. avatar perseus says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    I can’t speak for Fukuyama though I am broadly in his camp in terms of seeing the world in neo-Hegelian terms.

    Having read Diamond’s 11 points, it seems to me that the US meets the criteria to be a liberal democracy. You might not like US foreign policy in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and you may wish to assert the US is a neo-imperial power (whatever that means) but I don’t think you can assert (credibly) that it is not a liberal democracy (at home).

    As for how long it will take Chinese authoritarianism to wane. Basically when their economic development has gotten out of “copy cat cheaper” mode and they have to come up with original thinking to add value to sustain growth, at this point, you need creativity and open education in your culture. What Popper calls “the Open Society”.

    Personally, my view is that authoritarianism can’t survive the scrutiny of the Open Society forever. As workers of necessity become more educated as the economy becomes more high tech, old ideas like democracy, freedom and the rule of law start to be demanded.

    The Chinese Communists survive simply because they have embraced capitalism and their people are getting richer rapidly. This enrichment will sow the seed of the CCP’s eventual collapse or evolution into distinct parties as people will come to demand the right to sack their government (peacefully).

    As any competent Marxist will tell you – economic base determines cultural superstructure and if the base has become capitalist the superstructure will go that way too. The essence of capitalism is freedom and choice. Already there is a massive sexual revolution running through China. The so-called Great Firewall has more holes than Swiss cheese. Knowledge of how the rest of the world lives is out there. Knowledge of the rights and freedoms of other peoples is out there. The days of Stalinist information monopolies are long gone (except in North Korea which even the Chinese Communists find embarrassing).

    As for how long this transition from authoritarianism to something more liberal will take, who knows? Given the Chinese mindset, perhaps the CCP will evolve into something like the People’s Action Party in Singapore? A rather pragmatic outfit driven by evidence driven policy and conventional economics.

  4. avatar Andy says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 1:34 pm

    Indonesia is lurching dangerously closer to an Islamic republic everyday. Only in the short time I was there I noticed the rise in numbers of women wearing jilbabs and just look at the blind eye shown to terrorist groups and hardliners i.e. FPI. If the government was serious about solving this problem the hardliners would be rounded up at demos and locked away for an extended period of time feasting on rats and cockroaches in a filthy cell. But deep deep down they are the brothers of all good muslims and they can’t see the damage they are doing to their country.
    Not too long ago Jusuf Kalla denied the existence of Jemaah Islamiyah while he was calling for the banning of Ahmadiyah. If Islam was so true and right why can’t they trust the people’s judgement not to let Ahmadiyah grow while letting those who chose it do as they wish. It is the true sign of a maturing democracy of which Indonesia is not even close to being.

  5. avatar rima says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    i give up, i think indonesia is a lost cause. it’s in the hands of stupid radical fanatics and terrorists. logic, rational and common sense will no longer work, it is only a matter of time until it turns 100% into slave of the saudis.

  6. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Democracy is not Asian culture- it is also a means for Imperialists to install who they feel most congenial to their corporate johns.

    The most affluent nations in our region are all authoritarian- Singapore, China, formerly Malaysia. Soon wealth will return to Thailand a military Kingdom- already we see a trickle returning.
    Japan is often commented to be a one-party system.

    As the rare democracy- Australia has very few qualities to positively compare with authoritarian Singapore.
    Singapore, according to UN data (thanks Andy) has a better infant mortality rate, longer life span, happier people, higher per capita income, higher GDP, superior health care and educations system.
    And their women are slim, feminine and leggy- not churlish, obese butch aquatic warthogs like most white women.

    Andy is completely wrong as he is fundamentally misinformed, electively ignorant or has an agenda of bad-mouthing Indonesia.

    Ahmadiyah is a Pakistani sect- it is as foreign and dangerous as Branch Davidian and the Jones’ town ilk. But as the common Australian hypocrite- he sees no harm in Howard’s Astralian omni-wisdom to ban Christian and benign Benny Hinn from entering his beloved pleasantville- Ostraya. Howard and Labour both knew all too well- fools and their money are easily parted- Hinn would have made a killing.

    According to Indonesian Constitution- the rights of the State supercede that of the indivdual.
    Individualism is not acceptable when its’ irresponsible usage impinges on the rights of others or the benefit of the society. That is called social responsibility- something the West lost circa 1970′s when it embraced bed-wetting.

    If the UN Human Rights Charter is read fully- it clearly states a State MAY elect to enforce or remove any individual rights at its’ prerogative or for the GREATER GOOD.

    The West is partially to blame. It and Soros collapsed our economy and the West DEMANDED and COERCED the removal of Pak Suharto- allowing millions of Wahabbi dollars to flow in during the vacuum of State near bankruptcy being nable to provide State education for he poor.
    Then Australia opportunely distabilises the State for a gas grab- dping neat pirouettes on long-standing foreign polic- and blatant funding oof OPM for BHP Billiton to get now ultra-lucrative copper (and hottest trading metal).
    As usual- it stood hands on hips pointing limp-wrostedly and bubbering cheaply about rights- never once putting money where flapping mouth was- until, as we had long warned- bombings occurred.

    Somehow it was all Indonesia’s fault. The West is very quick at pulling up trousers when caught around thei ankles- years of brothel training one imagines. This is why Indonesia will never again trust the West- we still haven’t yet pulled out all the knives of 1964-5 from our back.

    The West was shown again to be hypocritical and popualted largely by smug spineless bed-wetters, bleeding hearts brigade ignorami and moral onanists.

    The West’s ignorant criticism of Nasution’s (not Pak Suharto’s) Dwi Fungsi of miltary bloc in the upper and lower house was to make certain no Islamic party would ever prevail.
    Now it sees we knew best, after all.

    If the West finally shuts its’ flapping it’s vast cake-hole and returns to a hobby it excels in- gormandiing itself to death- and leaves us to run our own affairs without their idiotic meddling- stability and prosperity will return to Indonesia.

    Mother Goose just has to let Father-knows-best Goose run his pond and quit her hysteric honking.

  7. avatar Andy says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Purba-Then Australia opportunely distabilises the State for a gas grab- dping neat pirouettes on long-standing foreign polic- and blatant funding oof OPM for BHP Billiton to get now ultra-lucrative copper (and hottest trading metal).

    Where are you talking about, Timor Leste? You complete imbecile! If not for the support of Australia you wouldn’t have got it in the first place. It never was yours or the Dutch but in your complete arrogance and hypocrisy blamed the dutch for colonialism then tried to do the same thing to your own region.

    The one time in my life I felt truly ashamed of my government (not country, most of us knew better) was in allowing the regional war criminal suharto to take over the peaceful island of Timor.

    Oh and Purba you still think the rest of your precious country can’t follow? You recently said Papuans were confused. I have a good friend who spent 4 years in a suharto prison for being’confused’ I don’t think so.

    If you truly believe in the nonsense you write you are no better than a war criminal yourself.

  8. avatar Andy says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    One thing you didn’t mention Purba, authoritarian Singapore never tried to take over anyone elses country the way yours has. They are smart enough not to bite off more than they can chew. They are friends with pretty much everyone in the region except Indonesia which still hasn’t signed off on the extradition treaty. You even argued with them over a bit of sand last year. oh you poor poor boys let me take a tissue.

    Indonesia is the major pariah state in the region. Even smaller islands close to Malaysia and the Philippines have been in your sights. And of course your fishermen, illegal immigrants and wishful citizens are always trying to get onto our soil and seas without the proper paperwork. Shame, shame, shame.

    Funny how Indonesia always tries to stick it’s bib into eveyone’s affairs and tell countries like mine what to do (while taking our money with the other hand). Well stop telling countries like Israel what to do!!!!They are in the middle east not you!!Do not ever tell anyone there what to do pal..It is not and I repeat not your region to tell them ok.

  9. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Tell your leaders to practice what you preach Andy.
    Is it Rabbi Yakob Andy Rubengoldsteinburg or something?

    Israel is the world’s Pariah (why do Aussies love that word?)- a nation of thieves, Shylocks and Fagins.
    Right of Return?
    Most UN agreements against?
    Even Russia with large Jewish popultion does not support?

    Singapore has tried to take islands- it routinely and in contravention of many International Laws of the High Seas and International Laws steals sand from off Riau for reclamation.

    Singapore has reclaimed 17% of total land mass via sand reclamation- with no compensation to Indonesia for loss of land, loss of fishing or environmental destruction.This is now in litigation.
    Last time Singapore tried, we filled their surveying ship with over large calibre 100 rounds to show Indonesians aren’t Aussies- we are action not talk.
    But, the last time Singapore tried that nonsense.

    Indonesia regularly chases and sinks illegal Chinese fishing vessels- assisting our poorly and friendly neighbour New Guinea.

    Malaysia has stolen two islands- near Batam- it landed two patrol boats and expelled Indonesian living on these . Indonesians went to the International Court but lost on very marginal and contentious ruling.
    So now we will use the method moron understand best- brute force, and not the limp-wrister’s beloved, yet corrupt “Laws”.

    Indonesia is also currently mediating the four way Spratly Island dispute- hardly a task for a regional pariah?

    Illegal immigrants are not Indonesian- but Chinese, Afghanis etc trafficked via Indonesia.
    Indonesia follwos international law tothe letter and can not thus arrest people for simply travelling to a final destination. Australian Federal Police are being very constructive in fixing this Australian problem with the help of Indonesian police (it is a very low priority for us in the scheme of things).

    Philippines- Indonesia fully supports their claim to North Kalimantan better knowns as British bitch “Sarawak”.
    We have been very warm neighbours since Indonesian Independence without incident.

    You may be confusing Indonesia with China- HCina is contesting Phillippoine soveriegnty to Spratlys and other islands.

    According 1949 Dutch signed agreement- ALL OF DUTCH EAST INDIES TERRiTORY was to be ceded to Iddoensia, then again in 1962 New York Agreement DUCTH AGREED TO CEDE IRIAN JAYA

    Mince about as much as you like Andy- but the Dutch renegged on their 1949 Agreement- and the text the Ducth- including QWueen Wilhelmina signed is widely available.

    Try reading a book or newspaper Andy- one that you didn’t type yourself.

  10. avatar Andy says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 3:44 am

    Purba-Try reading a book or newspaper Andy- one that you didn’t type yourself.

    Is this some sort of joke, I mean coming from you.

    Israel is the only TRUE democracy in the middle east and one which gives it’s citizens the right to vote. That includes Arabs. I can remember the bedwetting and moralising of the Indonesians when Hezbollah attacked Israel and then were quite rightly attacked back. Oh the poor innocent Lebanese they cried. Well Purba, who started it?

  11. avatar Andy says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 3:46 am

    Purba-According 1949 Dutch signed agreement- ALL OF DUTCH EAST INDIES TERRiTORY was to be ceded to Iddoensia, then again in 1962 New York Agreement DUCTH AGREED TO CEDE IRIAN JAYA

    Didn’t include Timor Leste did it. That belonged to the Portugese. Or can’t Indonesians read maps. Wouldn’t surprise as i’ve never met one who can yet.

  12. avatar PrimaryDrive says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 5:15 am

    Andy: Or can’t Indonesians read maps. Wouldn’t surprise as i’ve never met one who can yet.

    Andy can’t read maps either; that’s why he couldn’t notice if someone else can :P

    Sorry … can’t help it :P

  13. avatar Andy says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 7:44 am

    Purba-Indonesia regularly chases and sinks illegal Chinese fishing vessels- assisting our poorly and friendly neighbour New Guinea.

    I meant your own criminal fishermen. Our northern jails are filled with such lowlifes and leeches. If you really expect countries to respect you no matter how many human rights abuses you rack up how about cleaning up your own backyard and getting your people back over your side of the border. I really don’t want my hard earned money spent feeding, housing and clothing your people in our prison system which must be like a holiday camp compared to where they come from.

    PNG is a good friendly neighbour. Yes true but surprising really when their brethren to the west are routinely abused and tortured for simply wanting to be themselves. The transmigration program bringing with it javanese whores is designed to spread AIDS throughout and kill off the indigenous people.

  14. avatar Berlian Biru says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 8:48 am

    Indonesia had as much right to take over East Timor upon the collapse of the Portuguese empire as India had to take over Goa or China had to take over Macau.

    If it was ok for the Indians and Chinese I can’t see why it suddenly became so immoral when Indonesia did it.

    East Timor was and is a basket case, that it is so is something the Timorese need to examine among themselves, the long departed Indonesians aren’t to blame.

  15. avatar Andy says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 9:00 am

    Oh really? Indonesians still blame the dutch and bules generally after 63 years. Indonesia left Timor a complete mess only a few years ago and tried hard to do this after losing face to the rest of the world. What a pity they couldn’t support the umpires (and people’s decision) and leave when they lost the referendum. Instead their hired goons (militias)had to stay and punish anyone they could get their hands on.
    They will be a mess for a while, Rome wasn’t built in a day but will recover and maybe become a tourist destination as there are many beautiful beaches.

  16. avatar perseus says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    Berlian Biru wrote:

    East Timor was and is a basket case, that it is so is something the Timorese need to examine among themselves, the long departed Indonesians aren’t to blame.

    If the departure of Indonesia from East Timor was “long ago” and the Indonesians not to blame for the basket case, then the departure of the Dutch was “long long ago” and the Indonesians can surely start to accept the blame for their own baskets and cases!

  17. avatar Cukurungan says:
    August 30th, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    PNG is a good friendly neighbour. Yes true but surprising really when their brethren to the west are routinely abused and tortured for simply wanting to be themselves. The transmigration program bringing with it javanese whores is designed to spread AIDS throughout and kill off the indigenous people.

    Number of papuanes routinely abused and turtuted by ABRI (TNI) were only nano size compared with monumental mass murdered, raped and genocide commited by the whiteman upon natives australia
    while the transmigration program is refining method of the whiteman to displace and eliminate the native aboriginal from their own land but we done it in more humanity approach because un-like the whiteman who brought gun and infected blanket to wipe-out the aboriginal instead of Javanese farmer brouhgt only cangkul to teach how to do a good farming to papuanese.

  18. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    August 31st, 2008 at 12:09 am

    Transmigration is 100% voluntary. The AIDS most likely come from Australian mine-worker returning from pedophilia and sex tourism in Pattaya Thailand- where AIDS pre dates other Asian AIDS infections- as in New Guinea.

    This is the UNWHO conclusion.

    We are not a police state disguised as a democracy unlike some- we cannot inhibit Human Right of unfettered movement.

    Israel pre-emptively attacked Lebanon in 1981.
    Lebanon did not bomb Israeli apartment blocks

    Lebanon Qassam rockets are 90% INACCURATE and have possibilty of blowing up user of 45%+. and carry less than 50 kg home-made explosive warhead.

    Fagin drops US made 250 lb, to 1000 lb industrial RDX and HMX military high explosive- of order magnitude 10′s of times more powerful than TNT- most powerful explosive available to brave Hezbollah hero.

    The UN itself defied US pressure and called very well-documented Israeli actions of bombing bridges, airports, water infrastructure, Lebanon’s only power-station creating massive oil spill (which ruin Israeli fishing too), hospitals, schools and apartments acts of war crimes.

    Andy- once again your ignorance is your won undoing:
    PNG has signed 100 km hot pursuit legal intrusion zone for Indonesian military.

    It hates the OPM as terrorists too- as does Australian mine company in PNG

    Timor now considers Indonesia as ts’ best partner. Timor wants Australian soldiers out now- but Colonialist refuse to leave fortress-like Asutralian military presence.
    Then attempt assassination of Gusmao for reconcile with Indonesia and invite Russia Gazprom specialists as far more equitable and just partner in gas exploitation )above Howrd funder Woodside Petroleum).

    So it is complete lies made up by your liberal bed-wetter tabloids.

    Aussies are well known for their very poor sportsmanship.
    You are globally more hated than the 1950′s ugly American tourist.
    Why not try a google search to prove me wrong.

  19. avatar Andy says:
    August 31st, 2008 at 4:01 am

    Purba-Israel pre-emptively attacked Lebanon in 1981.
    Lebanon did not bomb Israeli apartment blocks

    I meant 2006 not 1981. Israel acted in self defence as they have done in all wars, particularly the 1967 war with Egypt. They are a brave country which is forced to live next to hostile islamic neighbours who deny their right to exist.

    Cukurungan-you are a complete imbecile. You had to dig deeply into your history books to find this one didn’t you. 1800s, which year exactly? I’m talking about the here and now. We righted our wrongs and let’s not pretend here, ALL countries have some blood on their hands at some point in their history.

    But right now in 2008 you guys are torturing innocent Papuans while our aborigines enjoy welfare payments that would be the envy of your poor citizens from backwardsville.

  20. avatar dnj_jkt says:
    August 31st, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Purba…..have been reading your posts for a while now, and am very impressed by them. Your knowledge, and use of sarcasm, and dry humour has exposed you……….YOU ARE A BRIT …..there is nothing remotely Indonesian about you…

  21. avatar ultratupai says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 2:51 am

    i give up, i think indonesia is a lost cause. it’s in the hands of stupid radical fanatics and terrorists. logic, rational and common sense will no longer work, it is only a matter of time until it turns 100% into slave of the saudis.

    Yes, that is a sad and true possibility. I wish I were the President of Indonesia. But one thing is for sure: Nikes, iPods, the internet, gambling, and pornography just might save Indonesian from becoming a sharia state. Money trumps religion any day.

    Frankly, I don’t really see “radical fanatics and terrorists” running Indonesia. It does not seem to be in the tradition or history of Indonesia for this to follow.

    What Indonesia needs, and I will argue this to the bitter end, is a secular, radical, nationalist. And Indonesia needs this person very soon.

  22. avatar Andy says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 4:03 am

    Agree ultratupai, secular is fantastic-no constitution should ever make any reference towards god or religion. It is poison and will always lead to fanaticism. Radical-all countries at some point need change and someone brave enough to change things regardless of how unpopular they are. Dropping petrol subsidies is a good example of a positive but unpopular decision Indonesia has taken in the last few years. Nationalism though I disagree with. Global beats national everyday simply because it is the way the world is heading. Blind nationalism leads to ignorance and racism and makes countries look inwards not outwards.

  23. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 11:23 am

    Andy,
    Your Australian Constitution clearly names God, Howard popularly called Australia a Christian Nation, as does MAgna Carta as does the US Constitution- “In God we Trust”?

    Indonesia’s 1945 Constitution clearly defines Indonesia as a Nationalist Secular Democracy.
    It is not a matter of debate nor change.

    You will have a very tough time finding a Constitution without religious reference anywhere on the globe

    Gloablism as the moron understands it is a “global village that gives him his much-desired all over fuzzy-feelings of cross-race hand-holding and kumbaya singing.

    The reality is it is Imperialism with a pretty name- allowing multi-nationals easier cross-border monopolisation and access to new resources.

    For an English teacher, not only is your written language dreadful- but you are incredibly ignorant.

    Why do you care more about wasting money on Illegal Fishermen than Australia’s generational welfare layabouts, multi-dad women popping out children and other such deep-ingrained social ills caused by Western hand-wringing.

    In Indonesia-we do not burden the state with our own parental responsibility of educating or minding our child or employment.

    Perhaps if you Australians trim the apron strings you may have more money?

  24. avatar andrey says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    Actually, Indonesia’s constitution clearly states that this is an Islamic Country.
    Read the preambule/pembukaan.. clearly stated that Indonesia came in to being due to Allah’s grace. Not “Tuhan”, a more neutral word.
    The choice of word “rahmat” also points to the fact that Islamic “Allah” was meant. Christian does not use that word with their God’s name.

  25. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 9:11 pm

    Yes- very true “Allah” is used. But it is interchanged with Ketuhanan in the preamble.
    Article nine uses Allah.

    Tuhan is not neutral at all – it is a Christian word- only used by Christians- but more acceptable to Hindus.
    However Allah is also used by Christian and exist in their bible- but pronounced as “Ala” not “Ollorh (like Arabic)”.

    The wording of Pancasila, article one
    Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa
    A Solely Supreme God: the commonb English transliteration is wrong

    The Pancasila was not Sukharto’s creation but the Panitia Sembilan”: Sukarno, Hatta, Yamin, Maramis, Subardjo, Ki Hadikusumo. Wachid Hasyim, Agus Salim and Abikusno

    Buddhists are catered for via their Sang Hyang Adi Buddha- a one supreme God
    Hindu are catered for in the Tri Mukti- Ram, Shiwa ,Dewa

    It was for this very reason it was chosen- no other. We could not use Gott- this was Dutch relic and reminiscent of Protestant colaboration.
    Pity Indonesian does not have another word (without values or connotation) for “God”- maybe we should make a new universal one up.
    We also do not have the term “almighty”. It was a very heated and very tough compromise- but Sukarno succeeded.

    This was compromise by Sukarno so Daurl Islamiyah would not create civil war by their suspicion of Sukarno as an atheist Socialist. It is not Islamo-centric as often mistakenly interpreted by Western scholar- merely a politically necessary compromise.

    Sukarno as well as Hatta were often source of debate about their Islamic identity- many close to Sukarno claim he was actually atheist (as much as Indonesian interpretation of atheism). Some claim he was scereet Hindu- he truth we shall never know- if controversial it is politically dangerous to mBak Megawati who has massive Javanese Muslim support among the poor (and of course Balinese).

    However in the following paragraph- all five state religions are clearly defined with ample room for “abangan” traditional custom.
    This was furtehr stressed via Pancasila.
    Pak Suharto at one time was very much expected to announce Kejawen as an official religion.
    It wouldf be very interesting to see how this would have effected Indonesia.

    Preamble:
    4th line
    With the blessings of God Almighty and impelled by the noble idea of a free national life, the Indonesian people do hereby declare their independence.

    Chapter XI. Religion
    Article 29
    1. The State shall be based upon the belief in the One and Only God.
    2. The State guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief.

  26. avatar Lairedion says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    PN,

    Dutch Protestants seldom use the word “God” (Gott is German) but the word “Heer/Heere” which would translate into Lord or Tuhan.

    The inclusion of Buddhism into Pancasila is a typical Javanese syncretist way to respect Buddhism as one of the classical religions of what is now Indonesia. Core Buddhist teachings do not concern the existence of a personal God, let alone the belief in God.

  27. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    I only tell it as it is- the interpretation is for smarter people than myself.

    I know nothing about Dutch aside from it being a shoddy bastardisation of the far more noble German and French and is as offensive to hear spoken as Hebrew.
    Such an ugly language.

    Furthermore- the five pointed gold star of the Indonesian coat of arms represents God- the 5 points represent each aspect of His worship.

  28. avatar Lairedion says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    PN,

    I was just correcting one of your many flaws. Here’s another one:

    German and Dutch are closely related as being both Germanic languages but French is a Romance language so Dutch can never be a bastardisation from French. But I agree it’s not a nice language to hear or read. Like Arabic and Hebrew it has that annoying harsh “G” sound.

    As for the five-pointed golden star I know the meaning, just telling that God is irrelevant in Buddhism.

  29. avatar Purba Negoro says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 10:48 pm

    It is not me but Buddhists themselves who claim their “Sang Hyang Adi Buddha”- perhaps it is solely a Javanese interpretation of the Dharma- like most things Javanese- we mix things up hopelessly and confuse everyone else.

    Well- Buddhists are for the most part harmless here- and they keep Borobudhur nice and clean, and smells nice for tourists.

    As long as they are officially recognised and protected is the essential part, the fundamental rationale of Panca Sila is perpetual and total denial of power to the Islamics and fellow lunatics-traitors.

    The Committee of Nine were genius.

  30. avatar Lairedion says:
    September 1st, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    PN said:

    like most things Javanese- we mix things up hopelessly and confuse everyone else.

    That’s what I meant with the typical Javanese syncretist way. Thanks for acknowledging that.

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