Socially Inclusive

Sep 18th, 2008, in IM Posts, by

Two religion based political parties deciding to become more diverse and inclusive, or not.

PDS

The Partai Damai Sejahtera (PDS), Prosperous Peace Party, a Christian party with a small number of seats in the national parliament, recently decided to formally open itself up to non-Christian members and candidates.

Partai Damai Sejahtera

Party chairman Denny Tewu announced last month that 20% of candidates would be Muslim by the 2009 elections, and that the PDS hoped to field more celebrity candidates as well, and build bridges into the police and military communities, with the aim of keeping above the 2.5% electoral threshold. antara

Denny claimed the party already had some Muslim activists and clerics as members, in Jember, and other parts of Java, but he couldn't remember their names. detik

He hoped Muslim members of the party would accept the fact that at party gatherings it was customary for Christian prayers to be carried out, although in the future, as the party became more polyglot, such practices might end, he said.

On another occasion, this month, he extended the invitation to Hindus and Buddhists to become PDS candidates. inilah

PKS

Some figures in the Islamic Partai Keadilan Sejahtera (Justice Party, PKS) have made past statements about the party needing to become more diverse and open to non-Muslims, although the party's leader Hidayat Nurwahid has generally not seemed overly-enthusiastic about diluting the Islamic credentials of the PKS.

Tifatul Sembiring

Presently it seems that the PKS is open to non-Muslim candidates mainly in largely non-Muslim areas. A PKS official, Razikum, said recently that in Papua and Irian Jaya Barat the party was fielding a number of non-Muslim female candidates, because they were from regencies that had very few Muslims. However these women were standing for local parliament, not national. detik


39 Comments on “Socially Inclusive”

  1. avatar Enigmatic says:

    Smart move by PDS. Good that they know that realistically it’s impossible to gain some significant power in parliament without using muslim power. what happens now is anyone’s guess though…

  2. avatar timdog says:

    On the one hand, one is instantly inclined to be cynical and to scoff at transparent “inclusive” window-dressing, and to point out that neither is a particularly major party (though PKS has some clout). On the other hand, one is wont to applaud such honourable intentions.
    On the other hand (what?!?! Three hands? Yes, I do have an unlimitted number of hands when it comes to matters of opinion) one is inclined to suggest that this kind of move can prove dangerous (if you’re that way inclined).

    A religious-based party – of any faith – that makes a declared shift towards inclusiveness, that waves before the cameras a somewhat dazed totem of its inclusivity in the form of a tame minority-religion member, is making a move to rehabilitate itself, to shift itself into the mainstream, ultimately, to become much more electable.
    Its intentions in doing so may actually be thoroughly honourable, but should such a party, even in a rehabilitated and “inclusive” form actually reach government, there are certain distasteful links that will remain.
    A prime example of this is India’s one-time governing BJP. Hardly the Hindu Taliban, and with a plenty of their own Sikhs, Christians, and a few self-hating Muslims to prop up before the cameras, they none-the-less have all manner of direct links to groups that are, without being hysterical, fascistic, and extremeist in the… er… extreme…

    Mainstream scular parties toying with and appeasing religious sentiments is one thing, but I don’t like the idea of religious parties going mainstream…

  3. avatar David says:

    Enigmatic, or anyone else who might be sympathetic to the PDS, what do you think about them using the cross in their logo? Always thought there ought to be a law against that sort of thing, using religious symbols and words in political parties I mean.

    Logos aside, if they dilute their Christian cred then not sure what reason they have to exist anymore, may as well just merge with PDI-P or something.

  4. avatar Enigmatic says:

    for the record i’m not sympathetic to any religious parties because, as i have mentioned time and time again, religion and politics cannot mix.

    my earlier comment merely serves as an opinion towards their decision to include Muslims in their party… which I hope would pursue more nationalistic goals rather than their own religious ones.

  5. avatar Anonymous says:

    OOT.

    Young Christians in Indonesia have endured psychological discrimination. It doesn’t happen all the time and to all Christians. Most likely just ones that *deserve* such treatment. I cannot write about it using real name, but there are proofs. Even though worse ones are unseen and undocumented.

    Do a research. Detect the similarity of behavior between young Christians.
    Ask them about how it is. Make it a significance.
    So that the world knows how the truth is.

  6. avatar Enigmatic says:

    Anonymous Says:

    September 22nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
    OOT.

    Young Christians in Indonesia have endured psychological discrimination. It doesn’t happen all the time and to all Christians. Most likely just ones that *deserve* such treatment. I cannot write about it using real name, but there are proofs. Even though worse ones are unseen and undocumented.

    Do a research. Detect the similarity of behavior between young Christians.
    Ask them about how it is. Make it a significance.
    So that the world knows how the truth is.

    You mean there are things worse than having churches stoned and bombed and having worship classes suspended or cancelled thanks to the FPI?

  7. avatar David says:

    Enigmatic maybe those things happen to a fairly small minority, whereas Anon is talking about more generally-occurring things, which are much more interesting really, if less dramatic… Btw, here’s another one of those events, which I think I’ll leave.

    Anon, I *think* I know the sort of things you mean, but perhaps you could give some examples, the ‘little’ things that a lot of people probably don’t notice or think much of, but…I wonder to what extent these things are just a function of being a minority, minorities can’t hope or expect to have things their own way all the time. That’s not an argument against what you’ve said, but anyway I’m quite curious….

  8. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Nonsense. Lies and Bohong.
    What kind of rubbish is “Psychological Discrimination”?

    Since psychology concerns the mental health of the mind of the one whom seeks help, it would appear this “discrimination” is entirely a psychotic delusion episode.

    Now I’ve heard it all.

    Patung: your silent treatment of my articles is causing me psychological discrimination!

    I doubt you’d find more baloney in a subway sandwich.

  9. avatar David says:

    Patung: your silent treatment of my articles is causing me psychological discrimination!

    I appreciate your contributions, just not all of them. 🙂 Ok what I will do is put any article that I don’t really like in the “Asides” section.

    As for psychological discrimination, I don’t exactly know what Anon means, but here’s a little example of *something* recently – for 17 August celebrations where I live, the area being 70% Muslim according to my wild guess, at the end of the night someone got up to say a prayer, most of his prayer was quite generic Tuhan stuff that anyone could have prayed along with, but at the very end he ruined it by switching into Arabic – that immediately shuts out the non-Muslims, unless of course there were any Arab Christians there, which I don’t think there was….It’s not a big thing, it’s not, like Enigmatic says, a church burning, but little things can count…

  10. avatar timdog says:

    Hmmm… I was wondering what you and anon were getting at Patung.
    I’d be inclined to say that that’s very much “just a function of being a minority”; to complain about it would be intolerant in itself – should the musholas in offices be closed so as not to offend those who have no cause to use them?

    In the UK, all state schools are still legally obliged to hold an assembly of a “broadly Christian” nature at least once a week. These days it’s quite probable that practicing (that’s a very specific identification) Christians are no longer a clear religious majority in the UK, but I don’t think a Sikh, Hindu or Muslim has any particular cause to complain about such things (though whether there should be any religious expression in state schools is a seperate issue).

    In fact, it is precisely when members of religious minorities (or more often the white liberals who interject unbidden on their behalf) in the UK do complain about such things (and actually, it’s a reactonary myth that they do complain – they pretty much never do; it’s the forces of political correctness who do so, not the minorities themselves) that hostility towards them is provoked. And to be entirely frank, if they really were complaining about school assemblies, the “god” in “God Save the Queen” and the church service on BBC radio every Sunday morning, then any hostility provoked would at least be understandable, if not justified…
    Hell, you know I tend to lean in a “liberal” direction, and I’m saying that!

    My point is of course, that what applies in the UK, as described above, applies in Indonesia too. I don’t think that it would be legitimate for non-Muslims to complain about the odd burst of public Arabic, or Muslim turn of phrase, and I don’t think very many of them would ever do so. And I catagorically do not think that such things are in any way symptomatic of the same phenomenom that produces burnt churches.

    Incidentally, whenever I’m in church in Indonesia (weddings usually) the only thing that rouses me from my slumbers is the little frisson when an incongruous Arabic term bobs out of the sermon… Allah (not Tuhan, note) and Iblis are all over the place, and I’ve heard more than a few jahanams…
    I’ve heard Javanese Catholics greeting each other with an “assalaam aleikum”; non-Muslim boys are circumcised (in Java anyway; I don’t know about in Christian-majority areas); every word in Indonesian containing the letter “F”, plus hundreds of others are from Arabic – and so on and so on and so on.
    Do such things also amount to “psychological discrimination”?

    I wonder why this story hasn’t prompted more discussion…

  11. avatar David says:

    Hmm I don’t think much of your analogies…but if you look at it from the his perspective probably he was just doing it the way he knew how to do it, not meaning to shut anyone out or anything of course, but it was just a little shame, especially on the national day and all.

  12. avatar Marisa says:

    @ Purba Negoro

    I’m beginning to think all the fuss about verbal (textual? not sure of the right term) over the internet, puppies heads gotten chopped off, all of the complaints I’ve heard here in Indonesia Matters and stories about “how they were brought up, religiously”, all of these stuffs are somewhat related to psychological discrimination. This has nothing related to blogging to be specific. Chances are that this has happened since I was just a little kid, to the time I was active on the internet years before blogging.

    But, since you’ve implied blogging, there are blogs that explicitly mention anti pluralism, etc etc also. Countless of them at WordPress.com and Blogspot just like any other blog, so it’s quite easy to find one accidentally by Google, isn’t that supposed to be considered as social intimidation? And I’ve read stuffs about getting Christian girls’ laid, pregnant, and if they won’t convert in 5 years (again, not sure.) then dump them and the child, because it’s considered “zinah”.

    Some friends of mine have their own stories, too. Ironically, just as how you reacted to it, I also first thought they were being nonsensical. Somewhat sounded too conspiratorial and irrational. I mean, isn’t life harsh no matter who we are?

    I refused to believe in these things at first. I’m not the type of person that believes in religious-whatever stuffs anyways, but seems like everything starting to make sense. To be honest, I don’t know the right term for it except “psychological discrimination”. Because it’s abusive psychologically, although not physically. Does anyone here know any better term?

    I certainly hope I’m being delusional, Purba. I certainly do. Can’t do much about this problem though, all I can think of now is to inquire informally to related (non-religious, if possible) organizations. At least to learn if there’ve been any similar report or inquiry. Whether proven wrong or right, at least I’d know the answer. For me, and for everybody else. I am just trying to connect the dots here.

    From what I’ve seen so far, we’re make a habit out of violence, we’re so accustomed to it, that’s why we say that it’s how-life-is and that everything is tolerable. Any woman, if she is going to be mother someday, certainly wouldn’t want her children to grow up in such condition. Be it out there on the streets, in schools, in their social life and on the internet.

    Thanks.

  13. avatar Marisa says:

    Christians in Indonesia generally resist fighting back, but I’ve been wondering if any of this has affected their psychological being. Not insane, insane is when you loose sense of consciousness.

    Psychological being is more of how we perceive things in life, of others and of ourselves. That’s why I said: detect the behavioral similarity, especially those socializing openly amongst people from *that other religion*. In Indonesia, why do (Christian) Chinese are often considered socially exclusive? Or why do (Christian) Bataks are often considered arrogant? Is it some sort of a wall of psychological defense?

    Even if there are ones that aren’t socially exclusive, again, detect the behavioral similarity. Are they more rebellious? Apathetic? Lacking self worth? Even depressed? And why are Christians are perceived to be taking more painkiller drugs or alcohol? Is this a mere cultural stereotype, or is this true statistically? If yes, how so?

    As a Christian, I’ve always been taught how to forgive-thy-enemies and to humble myself before others. You people here know the drill, if you’re a born-raised Christian yourself.

    Unfortunately, I have an atheist part in me. That’s the part that seeks answers.
    Let’s just assume this is some sort of an anthropology research or something.

  14. avatar timdog says:

    Patung – what’s wrong with the analogies?

    he was just doing it the way he knew how to do it, not meaning to shut anyone

    Precisely; and do you think any non-Muslim there other than yourself saw any significance, or felt any sense of hurt at his generic bit of bismillahing tagged on the end, or could possibly have conceived it as “a little thing that would count”, ultimately adding up to a burnt church or a beheaded schoolgirl? (That really isn’t a rhetorical question – I am genuinely asking).
    I’ve seen Christian prayers made at public events in Timor and Flores at which members of the local Muslim minorities were present. Were they being discriminated against?

    Concern for the wellbeing of minorities – wherever you are, and whatever colour or creed those minorities might be – is understandable and admirable. And naturally, there will always be a sense that the majority can take care of themself and don’t need our sympathy. Fair enough.
    But there comes a point when that concern for the wellbeing of minorities slips over a certain line into exclusivity, and actually becomes an attack on the majority, even if only by default.
    Thus: The BBC’s series of Muslim-focussed programs to mark Ramadan is a wonderful expression of multicultural inclusivity in the modern age; meanwhile their Sunday morning church service broadcast is an exclusivist and inappropriate insult to their multitude of Jewish, Sikh, Muslim and non-religious listeners… oh really?!??
    And the same does apply in Indonesia. So while the fact that planning regulations are more rigorously applied when it comes to building churches than to building mosques is certainly bemoanable, that Indonesian Christians might hear the distant wailing of adzan as they lie in bed of a morning is certainly not tantamount to an attack on them, or to “psychological discrimination”. (I know that’s not what you were saying, but others here, trotting on a little way down the same path, have said just that).

    In any case, Marisa appears to have spelled out that the “psychological discrimination” we are talking about is not the “subtleties” you and I are bickering about…

    Marisa – I’m interested in what you are saying, and would like you to expand more on it.
    I (predictably) would suggest that your (brackets) are worth noting.
    Do you think the fact that (many) Chinese Indonesians are (Christian) is in any way significant in their reputation as “socially exclusive”?
    (Muslim) Madurese are seen as rude and aggressive by many other Indonesians; is the fact that they are (Muslim) in any way significant in that? (Muslim) Javanese are seen as snobbish and affected by some other Indonesians. Likewise?

  15. avatar Marisa says:

    @ timdog

    Good logic, months ago, wish I’d use the same logic to counter someone else’s opinion in this site.

    Honestly, I don’t know how cultural stereotype works, but it’s there. Cultural stereotype could be developed over centuries from various kinds of reasons. What I am trying to say is, in modern day culture, is psychological discrimination one of these reasons? Along with globalization, advancement of modern commerce and all.

    People often measure which ones victim and which ones perpetrators from practical matters, such as their economic level. People often assume that the (seemingly) rich, exclusive and arrogant ones could never be victims, chances are they are the perpetrators. People assume of this abruptly as if the minority haven’t worked their ass of harder than everyone else.

    Psychology measures differently, psychology distinguish victims and perpetrators differently. Despite the fact that bystanders will always be bystanders.

    timdog, you’re now pinpointing a certain matter, but I hope you’re not loosing the bigger picture. The bigger picture is made of stacks of documents, consisted of factual and real life cases — which I am trying to find out about. Anyone can debate me on the subject and it’s expected already. It’s an oppositional situation: either you’re on their side, or ours. I’ve already chose mine.

  16. avatar David says:

    I guess what made it stick out in my mind was that it was on the national day, with a lot of non-Muslims present, and they all seemed to be praying along with this guy, or affecting to, but with the last few sentences he left some of those people uncomprehending, and addressed himself to one group only, no doubt as I said not deliberately (just trying to see it from his side) but any effect of it isn’t necessarily dependent on the guy’s intentions, known or otherwise. No idea how others viewed it except the person next to me who didn’t appreciate it, but like I said it was a little thing…

    Your analogies, they work on some levels, not on others….a musholla is a building, it sits there, you use it or you don’t, it doesn’t stand in front of you on the national day, in a country where religion can be rather divisive, more than I think in Britain, and lead everyone in a prayer…etc.

    Britain, hugely different dynamic there, – historically Christian nation, still is formally in some respects, and where the minorities tend to be fairly recent migrants who might have some onuses on them due to their being the new folks in town, whereas here, never a Muslim nation formally, where the minorities, many of them, have been here as long as the majority, and even dominate whole distinct areas. The analogy can work, like I said, on some levels, but not wholly appropriate here I think.

  17. avatar timdog says:

    Fair play Patung, but my main point – about the way concern for the well-being of minorities can all too easily cross a line into paranoia, making entirely unreasonable demands of the majority, and even into being an unjustified outright attack on the majority – stands.

    Marisa – I’m hoping not to lose the bigger picture, which is why I hope you will expand further on this subject.
    I was just pointing out that I feel – and I do have particular confidence in this view – that “racial” or regional steriotyping, and prejudice in Indonesia tends not to have a great deal to do with religion, especially in relation to the Chinese, and of course, the (Muslim) Madurese…

  18. avatar Marisa says:

    that “racial” or regional steriotyping, and prejudice in Indonesia tends not to have a great deal to do with religion

    That’s the point, it never is about one’s particular religion — be it victim or perpetrator’s. I never did say it’s an attack towards Christianity, it’s more of an attack towards Christians or whatever it is associated with a certain stereotype. It’s about discrimination, and the need to target that discrimination.

    Re-read articles written by whoever it may concerned, you’ll see. Better yet, go see a dead headless pet dog. Or let me introduce you to a widow friend of mine, divorced with a son, just because she won’t convert. Then have them all multiply, accumulate, eventually disciplining your process of thought.

    It’s not about *that religion* either, I seriously don’t give a damn about them religion and their 72 virgins. It’s about the rest of us in this room. It’s about humans, not gods.

    So, how should these humans justify such violence over and over again? Race, regional, religion? Hm, religion, their own?

    Internationally,
    Indonesia is one of the most known countries that have history of terrorism.
    Indonesia is one of the most known countries that have history of mass violence.
    Indonesia’s highest religious organization (considering the majority) has issued anti pluralism, liberalism and secularism fatwa. If I’m not mistaken, this organization has also never stated public apology regarding terrorist bombings in Bali nor Jakarta.

    Now, get this. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
    Indonesia has no social campaigns whatsoever regarding the appreciation of pluralism and diversity — except for some epic cigarette commercials. In addition, Indonesia has no humanitarian organization whatsoever specifically committed in these causes, and explicitly declare it. Sure, we have some, but we cannot tell instantly by their names. People must guess around first which ones this and that. That’s not educative, that’s more like doing insiders’ politics.

    Such social campaign and humanitarian effort, just as ones in other countries, are aimed to objectively educate its citizens no matter who they are. And how have Indonesia been educating its citizens thus far? Considering the fact that it is one of the most known countries for … etc, etc?

    Lastly, let’s have YOU as an analogy.
    You are using a pseudonym, I personally don’t mind it at all, but there must be a reason to it, yes? Are you not practicing free speech? Are you not aware of your own basic human right on this country? Why? What seems to be the problem?

    Don’t answer. As I said, it’s an analogy and I personally don’t mind.
    Whatever it is you fear of loosing, I’ve already lost mine.

    Glad you do understand though.

  19. avatar Ish says:

    Indonesia is one of the most known countries that have history of terrorism.
    Indonesia is one of the most known countries that have history of mass violence.
    Indonesia’s highest religious organization (considering the majority) has issued anti pluralism, liberalism and secularism fatwa. If I’m not mistaken, this organization has also never stated public apology regarding terrorist bombings in Bali nor Jakarta.

    Pfft….

    EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has a history of violence…

    Clearly shows your biased perspective…

    Go watch some more FOX news…

  20. avatar Marisa says:

    Is that all the best you can do, Ish? Pfft.. Go watch some more FOX news?

    C’mon.

    Quite possible that hundreds of people worldwide will google several important keywords, and arrive on this page. They’re going to want serious, intelligent answers, you know. From adults.

  21. avatar Andy says:

    Marisa you are spot on…About time a few people here woke up and stopped being in denial. Indonesia has an appalling record of racism in the world. We can’t just blame it on lack of education either as who is responsible for educating the majority? The elites who hold power in the country of course. The same powers who rally folks from the kampung to attack embassies and burn flags calling for ‘sweeping’ of whatever nation they are angry with at the time. How much do they pay these rent a crowds, 50,000rp per head? No calls for calm on the streets or clear heads no….I remember having to lie low during the Papua incident and the Sutiyoso affair last year. Where were the politicians pleading with the masses to not generalise and be racist then.

    The onus is on the big end of town to stop this kind sh*t once and for all.

  22. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Nonsense, half-truth and outright Bohong.

    Andy- what a load of crap- honestly where do you get this stuff? Can you send me a copy?

    If you’re making it up- you are wasting your talent as a children’s author. Honestly- consider a career in kiddies’ books.
    Dahls’ “James and the Giant Peach” cannot compare to the unique and bizarre products of your imagination.

    Papua you mean the 40 or so refugees? Maybe you had to lay low as you shoot off you ignorant big mouth all the time.
    The Aussies renting houses Bona Indah and Pondok Labuh seemed fine.
    As did the rest of the Kemang crowd- Sunday saunters went on as usual.
    The weird US guy who live 4 houses down still insist on cycling to work in his too-tight bike shorts which leave far too little to the imagination.
    Hopefully FPI will attack his short shorts and insist he wear sarung. Maybe burn the shorts as inhabit by Setan and his djins.

    Sutiyoso was in power for five years
    Jakarta reported its HIGHEST NUMBER OF EXPAT ARRIVALS in five years- hotels had near full occupancy

    If Christians are unwilling to obey the Law- which clearly provides for mainstream Protestants and Catholics

    they have the full freedom to leave.

  23. avatar djoko says:

    I remember having to lie low during the Papua incident and the Sutiyoso affair last year. Where were the politicians pleading with the masses to not generalise and be racist then.

    Paranoid much? I live in an area with FBR flags everywhere and no one so much as batted an eyelash at me when that whole thing was going down.

  24. avatar Marisa says:

    Half-truth? Oh please. Make up your mind.
    It always works that way, kan? When people are (again, seemingly) apathetic and ignorant on certain societal taboos, they’re safe unharmed physically and/or psychologically. Take away your daily routines, chores, night outs, mind numbing activities, altogether your illusion of safety. And there it is, the truth.

    Articles on Papua can be found here:
    Kabar Papua
    Free West Papua
    Papua Post
    Or just google it.

    If anyone describe *this* as paranoia, then I don’t know the right word to describe them. Their nonsensical accusations and theories are too long to be listed. From labeling people as kafir and najis, to Zionists or Mossad agents. According to how they see it, people are never equal in such way that people are individuals of their own minds, hearts and souls. And like evil syaitan djins, minorities are mere antagonistic characters in their epic fantasy.

    Just do whatever they want to do or say, but why should they breach and invade public spaces actively such as the internet? And using Bahasa Indonesia? Aiming for orang daerah or those migrating from the rural to urban Jakarta? The very least they can do is to use English and confront us up front and on international level, so that the world could see what kind of people they truly are!

    If Christians are unwilling to obey the Law- which clearly provides for mainstream Protestants and Catholics

    they have the full freedom to leave.

    Tell that to my Sumatran ancestors and hundreds and thousands people of my ethnic.
    You talk as if Christians, also Buddhists and Hindus, in Indonesia are only nebeng in this country, as if they’re only guests, as if they don’t have the right howsoever to state opinion as lawful citizens and equal human beings. Or as natives, at the very least.

    Where are we? Darfur?
    Is this some sort of an intellectual genocide?

    (Even if you’re just acting this out for Indonesia Matters, you sure sound like the real one, Purba Negoro! Grats.)

    Anyhow, question: Aside from nationalistic ideals and respect for the nation’s founding fathers, why should minorities disfavor syariah-ruled Indonesia? Let them have what they want. Let them have Sunday picnics watching executors chopping off hands and slashing and back whipping. I see no problem with it, though I’m not sure of it myself. Is there a problem with it? Can anyone elaborate?

    Just as Purba Negoro said, if minorities are unwilling to favor how the Law is, they could just pack their bags and leave. And looks like, one thing that stands in the way is the very idea of pluralistic Indonesia. That is VERY reasonable, but why does it seem like minorities are being taken for granted here?

    I’d gladly pack and leave when the day arrives.

  25. avatar Patrick says:

    @ Marisa – Well said and it got me thinking several years back when my supplier, an Iranian naturalized American and Muslim, came to Jakarta and asked to visit the Istiqlal Mosque. We toured it together and then went across the street to see The Gereja Cathedral Jakarta. His reaction was interesting and enlightning. He looked up at the Cathedral and commented that it was obviously older than the Mosque across the street. He also noticed how very loud the “call for prayers” was blasting over the huge speakers and how it could be clearly heard in the sanctuary of the Church. He turned to me and said “the people who built the Mosque did so with purpose and to send an obvious message to the Catholics”.

  26. avatar Lairedion says:

    timdog said:

    Fair play Patung, but my main point – about the way concern for the well-being of minorities can all too easily cross a line into paranoia, making entirely unreasonable demands of the majority, and even into being an unjustified outright attack on the majority – stands.

    Exactly the Muslim immigrant communities in Western Europe do.

  27. avatar Rob says:

    Andy…

    I’d be interested to know where you were living at the time of the Papua and Sutiyoso incidents because I never felt the need to lie low. I ojek from home in the suburbs to the center of town and did so without any fear of being singled out over the Papua or Sutiyoso issues.

    Generally…

    I would add that Papuans seeking asylum in Australia is reflective of conditions in Papua and not only in recent times. As Marisa has said google Papua and read some accounts for yourself.

    I would also add that Sutiyoso has some skeletons in his closet and he needs to be held accountable for those. They might be a little bit more difficult to find in a google search but the obvious ones like his role in the PDI attack on 27 July are pretty well documented and out there in cyber space.

    Marisa…

    PN is a serial baiter and he is just trying to “g” you up. His most likely response to your suggestion at a google search will be to tell you how the places you point out like Free West Papua are foreign-funded conspiracies set on undermining the proud pribumi nation of Indonesia. He might even tell you that as a former (former is right isn’t it PN?) loyal officer of the great ABRI that he served in Timor Leste, Aceh, or Papua and that he never saw what you talk of.

    PN…

    I thought Sutiyoso served two terms?

    Generally 2…

    on the topic of inclusiveness. I am with Patung on this. How do these parties invent themselves when their symbols are somewhat more exclusive? The cross and the crescent moon (unless they are not moons at all but scythes at the rad to harvest the crops) seem to be reflect of a particular religious tradition.

    I am also with Patung on the idea that if they take this exclusiveness away do they lose some of their individual appeal? If they do, then wouldn’t it make sense to merge with other more inclusive parties? I wonder if a movement towards more inclusion is a bigger risk than it is worth in terms of alienating your base…

    Just a thought.

  28. avatar Andy says:

    Rob, I was living and working in Central Jakarta at the time of the Sutiyoso affair. Took the bus home and my family were very concerned for my safety but I soldiered on regardless. I think the thing that would have saved us is that I could tell an Indonesian I was a kiwi, yank, pom, even German and they simply can’t tell the difference. Accents mean nothing to people who are not well travelled and can’t speak English at an intermediate level or above. But I certainly wasn’t going to lead a chorus of Aussie Aussie Aussie oi oi oi at that time.

  29. avatar timdog says:

    Lairedion said:

    Exactly the Muslim immigrant communities in Western Europe do.

    I said:

    In fact, it is precisely when members of religious minorities (or more often the white liberals who interject unbidden on their behalf) in the UK do complain about such things (and actually, it’s a reactonary myth that they do complain – they pretty much never do; it’s the forces of political correctness who do so, not the minorities themselves) that hostility towards them is provoked.

    Incidentally – purely incidentally – I read a piece earlier today about how some UK mullah-wallah has just issued a fatwa saying guide dogs for blind Muslims should be allowed in mosques… I don’t intend that nugget to symbolise anything; i just thought it was interesting, and kind of funny…

  30. avatar Patrick says:

    Hey Pubra Negoro, I saw that you been signaled out by Rob as a serial baiter. And Rob should know as he is quite the Master Baiter! “LOL”

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