Fitna by Geert Wilders

March 7th, 2008, in Opinion, by Lairedion

View the original article here.

Tags: Cartoons, Danish, Denmark, Dutch, Films, Fitna, Freedom, Freedoms, Geert Wilders, Indonesians, Iran, Islam, Islamization, Movies, Muslim, Muslims, Netherlands, Pakistan, Protests, Quran, Religion, Religions, Western, Westerners

282 Comments on “Fitna by Geert Wilders”

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 »

Mach Jabber Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Suddenly turned to be yet another theist-atheist battleground.

I don’t say that God does not exist, but its existence is unnecessary— at least Hawking, no less, said so (and he’s not of Jewish ancestry, for you cospiracy theorists).

The assumption that God exists because everything must have a creator is self-contradictory, because the conclusion (that God exists) negates the first premise. For God is self-created.

And this is OOT.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 11th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Joe said

But there should be a starting point for everything.

Absolute Being, what you call God, has no starting point. Because non-being cannot exist we have to be an intrinsic part of this Absolute Being and share Its eternity. Eternity means beyond time and space. Time and space are not absolute but merely the coordinates with which we describe our evolving environment, what Hindu’s call maya, the powerful force that creates the cosmic illusion that the phenomenal world is real. Maya is thus that cosmic force that presents the infinite brahman (Absolute Being) as the finite phenomenal world. Maya is reflected on the individual level by human ignorance (ajnana) of the real nature of the self, which man has mistaken for the empirical ego but which is in reality identical with brahman (Absolute Being).

Can you please give me all the possible scenarios which you mentioned there were that portrays how science explains creation out of ‘nothingness’. That Reality is eternal as it were and will always be.He is not evolving. He is the same in all His attributes. If He was evolving then He would not be perfect in all His attributes as you mentioned in the quote:

Janma is right. This site is not the place to give a course in evolutionary science. But if you are interested I advise you to have a look at ‘process philosophy’ or ‘process theology’, a 20th-century school of Western thought that emphasizes the elements of becoming, change, and novelty in experienced reality. Foremost among the many modern thinkers who have contributed to process philosophy have been
- Henri Bergson (Nobel Prize for Literature in 1927) : Creative Evolution
- Alfred North Whitehead : Process and Reality
- Charles Heartshorne : The Divine Relativity

With regard to Hindu philosophy and metaphysics look for samkhya and the more extreme advaita vedanta.

For a fascinating view into the convergence of modern physics and oriental philosophies I recommend ‘The Tao of Physics’ by physicist Fritjof Capra, although the physics part of it already requires some advanced knowledge.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
- Charles Heartshorne : The Divine Relativity

Correction: should be Hartshorne.
rupert Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 2:25 am
well here we go again the hamas chief cleric finally show us who is the real “Crusaders”

The fiery sermon, delivered by Yunis al-Astal and aired on Hamas’ Al-Aqsa TV, predicted that Rome would become “an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.”
he said it not me the true goal of Islam is to conqure the world , like Hitler, like Alexander , and all the other Dictators that have come before so when you say CRUSADERS you must be refering to the islamists and not the Christians we Christians are a peaceful people by nature but when provoked we will fight as we did before this type of Islamic prevocation has to stop !!
Tony Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Fitna has taken news that is true and put it into a film that people are calling lies. That is bullshit. All he did was paste a bunch of real events from television and newspaper and now muslims are complaining. If the muslims dont like it then do something about it–stop encouraging animals like Abu Bakar Bashir to do the things they do.

I support freedom of speech and freedom of religion. But hey, lets stop forcing our imaginary friends onto everyone else–some of us dont believe in God and that is okay too. However, from what I see, it is okay if muslims burn churches, kill children and force others from their place of worship but if someone makes a film ( composed of TRUE events I might add) then the muslims want to declare jihad and threaten everyone with bloodshed.

Stop blaming Wilders and start blaming the idiot in the mirror and maybe we wont have a world where isalm is synonymous with terrorism. It is one thing to say or show something that people dont like–it is quite another to blow up innocent people to prove a point for a god no one, and I mean no one, can prove even exists.

Enough is enough.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
rupert said

The fiery sermon, delivered by Yunis al-Astal and aired on Hamas’ Al-Aqsa TV, predicted that Rome would become “an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.”

These clowns are becoming more and more grotesque. And the world looks on in awe and silence, and isn’t allowed to retaliate.

I concur with Tony

Enough is enough.
Lairedion Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
The fiery sermon, delivered by Yunis al-Astal and aired on Hamas’ Al-Aqsa TV, predicted that Rome would become “an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.

If this is the case we should consider some preemptive strikes on Masjid Al-Aqsa and the moonstone and two mosques in Mecca.
rupert Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 6:53 am
If this is the case we should consider some preemptive strikes on Masjid Al-Aqsa and the moonstone and two mosques in Mecca.

lairedion I dont think Nukin them is the answer fanatics are no afraid of death! well as long as it isnt theirs. The thing these Islamists fear the most is Education I say we try to educate the muslim youth before the hate mongers (imans) get to them. This I believe is the only way to peace between the Muslims and the rest of the world is through education . Before it gets to the point where they the muslims are dispised even more hate only begets more hate .
rupert
Cukurungan Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Enough is enough.

Remember since 400 years a go, the Muslim just were sleeping because we strongly believe that the Jesus follower would spread peace and compassion around the world but the history and the reality flooded us otherwise then why we should say enough while we still do nothing.

These clowns are becoming more and more grotesque. And the world looks on in awe and silence, and isn’t allowed to retaliate

The problem is not whether allowed or not allowed but who will do that because even Mr Bush says Islam is a “Great Religion that Preaches Peace”

The thing these Islamists fear the most is Education I say we try to educate the muslim youth before the hate mongers (imans) get to them. This I believe is the only way to peace between the Muslims and the rest of the world is through education .

Agree with better education the Muslim would be able to produce the educated Muslim such Osama bin Laden a civil engineer and Al-Zawahiri a qualified surgeon who know better to deal with the west than the Madrasah/Pesantren Graduate.
rupert Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
cuk get a life! Islam does preach peace its the evil doers like bin Laden and his group of miss guided evil doers that are hijacking Islam and make massmurders and baby killers of your youth.The world is looking closely at Islam now the pious minds of islam have the chance now to clean up your religion and expose these murders. Show the world muslims want to live in peace but those voices are silent what a shame for muslims all over the world sad very sad!! leadership what a waste
so cuk

cuk said

Agree with better education the Muslim would be able to produce the educated Muslim such Osama bin Laden a civil engineer and Al-Zawahiri a qualified surgeon who know better to deal with the west than the Madrasah/Pesantren Graduate.

cuk you should not be proud of this
Jake Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Well said rupert. Islam does preaches peace but those evil doers (bin laden & co) and illiterate does not understand the teachings of Islam what will they preach!

But there are muslims who are trying to clean the image of Islam and they are doing it bravely. Hats off to them. Go to this site to find out more about them.

Go to http://www.alislam.org
Lairedion Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 4:02 am
rupert,

Trying to educate the True Muslims is naive and useless. Don’t even bother to think about it.
rupert Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 4:59 am
Lairedion ,
what are your thoughts on how to intergrate “true Muslims ” in to the world society . Myself I think it can be done through education from what i have read here Iam not optismistic violence seems to be the only thing these Islamists want . what a dredful future for us here in the west
rupert
Muslims Against Sharia Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Some Dutchmen still have their balls and sense of humor.
http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/04/sorry-for-film-fitna.html
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
rupert said

what are your thoughts on how to intergrate “true Muslims “ in to the world society . Myself I think it can be done through education from what i have read here Iam not optismistic violence seems to be the only thing these Islamists want . what a dredful future for us here in the west.

Although your question was directed to Lairedion, allow me to step in.

Education, yes. But by whom? As long as they only trust their imams and religious scholars, who will be able to turn the tide? Anything foreign and not conforming to their holy book is already demonised before it has a chance to prove itself.

It will be a long and intricate process. Economic development will be a determinant factor. Maybe the internet and good - not the silly crap the masses are fed with here in Indonesia - can be of influence by exposing them to alternative ways of thinking than the ones they have been indoctrinated with. Anything beyond the direct control of their mind-snatching clerics will be of help.

I know I will get a lot of angry responses because of this, but the allowance of a certain kind of ‘civilised’ pornography - let’s call it ‘erotica’ - can have positive influences. That’s why the clerics are so afraid it of and try to ban it by all means. Because it has liberating and appeasing effects, so they cannot channel this sexual energy into their destructive agenda of control. Civilizations with a permissive stance on erotica like the Hindu’s usually also proclaim an abstinence of violence. Ask also any psychiatrist what damage the repression of sexual interest can do to people’s minds and don’t believe it when the bigoted clerics pretend that it will corrupt our youth or lead to rape and broken homes. They will come up with all kinds of statistics about the West trying to relate erotica to the number of divorce cases and to rape which in their own countries they simply sweep under the carpet. But not only the West has now - not always before - a liberal attitude regarding erotica. Many other civilizations had, and still have.
People with love and sex on their minds don’t go blow themselves up, they have other interests.
Lairedion Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
rupert,

Muslims Against Sharia couldn’t drop his comment at a better time. Movements like them are the key. Reform, re-interpretation and daring to criticize and question your own holy considered books and texts.

I checked their blog. They have a reform Qur’an available, free from violent and contradictory verses. Just what Wilders urged Muslims to do when using the phone book metaphor in Fitna. Tear out all the violent and hateful passages.

But, as an agnostic, I’m not into patronizing them. It’s up to them. The only thing of my concern is that Muslims and Christians (the two active in proselytizing) leave others alone and keeps their beliefs for themselves only.

If True Muslims like this Hamas dude want to overrun and conquer every single place on Earth I have no problem dropping equally strong statements about preemptive strikes. I wouldn’t want this to happen for real but I’m despise all those political correct Westerners like Odinius (a fellow debater here on IM) who, under the banner of mulitculturalism, give room to all kinds of hateful currents undermining modern secular societies.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Re. my post of 12:37 pm

Maybe the internet and good - not the silly crap the masses are fed with here in Indonesia -

should of course be read as

Maybe the internet and good TV - not the silly crap the masses are fed with here in Indonesia -
Rob Says:
April 20th, 2008 at 3:48 am
The reformed Qur’an…cool!

Are we going to have a reformed Old Testament and a reformed New Testament with anything that is offensive, ambiguous or open to interpretation?

That being said there are interesting arguments to be made why interpretation of the Qur’an is so despised and what is to be gained by preventing modern interpretation…I note with interest that the Muslims Against Sharia site has a dedicated email address for death threats. At least they’re conscious of the fact that there will be some muslims out there less than thrilled with their calls for reform!

Islam preaches peace? Well, perhaps it does but if anything Wilders’ in Fitna has selectively used various Sura where there is a suggestion that violence and subjugation is acceptable in certain circumstances and this highlights that there are a number of issues that must be addressed in the dialogue between Islam and followers of other religious faiths!

Let’s face it, calls to re-establish the Caliphate and all-out jihad war against the “west” or the “non-believers” is sure to cause a great deal of concern to those who are non-Muslim and perhaps rightly so! And perhaps this concern will extend to non-Muslims as well who have a much more moderate interpretation of their Holy Books and traditions.

On the Muslims against Sharia group perhaps a little more research is needed on them to determine whether they are in fact Muslim at all and this may assist in determining whether they are legitimate and representative of those Muslims who may truly seek reform!
William Says:
April 26th, 2008 at 9:20 am
dewaratugedeanom said:

the allowance of a certain kind of ‘civilised’ pornography - let’s call it ‘erotica’ - can have positive influences. That’s why the clerics are so afraid it of and try to ban it by all means. Because it has liberating and appeasing effects, so they cannot channel this sexual energy into their destructive agenda of control. Civilizations with a permissive stance on erotica like the Hindu’s usually also proclaim an abstinence of violence. Ask also any psychiatrist what damage the repression of sexual interest can do to people’s minds and don’t believe it when the bigoted clerics pretend that it will corrupt our youth or lead to rape and broken homes. They will come up with all kinds of statistics about the West trying to relate erotica to the number of divorce cases and to rape which in their own countries they simply sweep under the carpet. But not only the West has now - not always before - a liberal attitude regarding erotica. Many other civilizations had, and still have.
People with love and sex on their minds don’t go blow themselves up, they have other interests.”

You are quite right! The voice of reason spoke!
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 26th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Hey Patung,

Why are my posts scrambled? Some sinister forces at work?
Patung Says:
April 26th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
The strange characters in your comments look like you’ve copy pasted the text from somewhere, like a Word document or an email message or somewhere. Or you use a some kind of weird computer/operating system or something. Nothing to do with me.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
April 28th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Patung,

Yes, sometimes I prepare comments in Word and then paste them in IM. But I have done so for a long time and the strange characters never appeared before. I have noticed now that it also happens with posts from other commenters. Weird.
Cukurungan Says:
April 28th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Patung,

Yes, sometimes I prepare comments in Word and then paste them in IM. But I have done so for a long time and the strange characters never appeared before. I have noticed now that it also happens with posts from other commenters. Weird.

It must be a Jew conspiracy
Ahmad Says:
April 28th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
hi
I read there it is written nobody burns Iran’s flag. Be sure Iran’s flag is no more important than their prophet and their religion. Even though our flag is so important to us, but we love our prophet and our religion. This film is the most insulting attack against us and all muslims throughout the world. Furthermore not only Iranians burn the US flag, but also this is done in all those countries suffering from the behaviors of US officials. I am so bothered of the film that cannot even think about criticising it.
Agnes Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 7:29 pm
INDONESIA IS NOTED FOR ITS HYPOCRISY.

They blame the others but in the other hand they dont know exactly what they have done to the others.

I have read a moslem’s magazinen and the contents are a lot more excessive than what fitna tells about.

The conclusion :
We have hurted and have been hurted a lot.
Why dont we stop?
We should bear mutual respect to the others.
Doing contemplation is a lot better than blaming and throwing off on the others.
Why can’t we live without wars?

PS :
I agree with Joe.
Marisa Says:
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:50 am
@ Agnes

It has been this way for centuries long, or for most, it has begun ever since the first man and the first woman walk upon earth. It wasn’t supposed to end until (it eventually bring us all to) the end of the world.

What matters is what will happen afterwards..
John Green Says:
May 4th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Cukurungan

It is ludicrous to claim that Islam is a religion of peace and moderation. The Quran preaches hatred and vengeance, as do Muslim religious teachers throughout the world. Muslims are slaughtering Muslims in the name of God in Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Asia.

What is wrong with your God? Why is she so evil?
djoko Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Quraish Shihab takes an intellectual baseball bat to Fitna.

Free download, 97 pages, but Indonesian only at the moment.

http://www.f-buzz.com/2008/05/05/buku-ayat-ayat-fitna/

No matter which particular stream any one individual Muslim is from, most of those I have spoken to in Indonesia says that the guy really knows his chops (he’s got that massive set of tafsir books which get plugged every year during bulan puasa).
Cukurungan Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Cukurungan
It is ludicrous to claim that Islam is a religion of peace and moderation

I did not say so but Mr Bush say:
Bush Says Islam Is a “Great Religion that Preaches Peace”
President tells Al Arabiya those who murder innocents are not religious
Washington — Ahead of hosting an iftar celebration at the White House, President Bush said the Islamic religion “is a great religion that preaches peace,” and that Americans are free “to worship any way they see fit.”
More detail visit :
http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/October/20071005143134esnamfuak0.9335138.html

The Quran preaches hatred and vengeance, as do Muslim religious teachers throughout the world.

Show me your evidence? How come the civilized western countries let the book of the hatred and vengeance published and distributed in the western country freely? And how can Germany Government let their citizen embrace to the violence religion see below:
MUSLIM CONVERTS IN GERMANY
Angst-Ridden Germans Look for Answers — And Find Them in the Koran
By Lutz Ackermann
The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year — despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public.
More detail see:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,460364,00.html

Muslims are slaughtering Muslims in the name of God in Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Asia.

They are only emulating what the Jesus Follower had been done among them self (remember WW 1&2 and some religion War in Europe). However, it is more honorable to kill in name of God rather kill other in the sake of Fun like the Jesus Follower do as we speak.

What is wrong with your God? Why is she so evil?

There is nothing wrong with God? Today, God is just watching on us from the above universe and He patiently wait and see how human has been abusing the privilege have been given upon them.
gigi Says:
May 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Islamo-fascists? Muslim bigots? I hear a lot of those words in this thread, and those words came from…non-Muslim bigots! Yes, well I suppose bigotry is fine, as long as it didn’t come from those darn Muslims, isn’t it my bigoted friends??? The way I see it, the world will never attain peace until all those bigots are gone, whatever their religion or political affiliation.