Fitna by Geert Wilders

Mar 7th, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

Lairedion on the gathering storm over Geert Wilders' upcoming anti-Islam film "Fitna".

Tensions are rising as Dutch controversial MP Geert Wilders is about to reveal his anti-Quran movie Fitna. How will Indonesian Muslims respond to the next "insult" on Islam, shortly after the second Danish cartoon controversy?

Fitna by Geert Wilders

Since his emergence in Dutch politics Geert Wilders has gained much attention and support for his fierce anti-Islam and anti-immigration stances. In line with contemporary right-wing politicians his message seems simple yet appealing and his voice is loud. Deport criminal and illegal foreigners, stop the Islamization of Dutch society (prohibit construction of new mosques, refusing all Muslims from moving to and living in Holland), sell the Dutch Antilles to the highest offer on a Dutch auction website and much of the problems are solved.

So far his party PVV (Freedom Party) managed to win 9 seats in the last elections but opinion polls show they can count on 15 seats at least or even more if elections are hold right now. But his "crusade" comes with a price. Like so many critics of Islam he is constantly under the threat of being murdered and needs to be guarded 24/7 and lives on a secret location.

Geert Wilders
Geert Wilders.

Geert Wilders, who has some Indonesian blood running through his veins, wants to show the world Al-Quran is a fascist and violent book, in line with Hitler's Mein Kampf, and must be banned. It will be interesting to see how Wilders can dismiss a book, considered holy by 1.3 billion people, as fascist in a movie of 15 minutes, while ulama's and clerics have been studying Al-Quran for centuries and up until now are having trouble to come to an unified explanation and interpretation.

But what's all the fuss about? So far it has only been speculation and the movie hasn't been broadcasted yet.

Anyway the Netherlands is pretty much in a state of alert. The Dutch government is preparing for the worst-case scenario (retaliation, violence and damage towards Dutch citizens, economic interests and enterprises, terrorist attacks). On the other side many people are criticizing the Dutch government for exaggerating any potential dangers and impacts caused by this movie. An interesting sign is that Dutch Muslims seem to grow mature and sensible in their reactions towards insults to Islam. The last Danish cartoon controversy didn't spark any violence or significant protest in Holland and this movie will be just the next insult, meant to provoke reactions and violence so that Wilders can prove his points and not worthy paying any attention.

The worldwide reaction probably will be different. Recovering from the latest Danish cartoon controversy, Muslims worldwide are preparing for the next Western "assault" on Islam. Politicians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran are urging the Dutch government to prohibit the broadcast and last week some 200 Indonesian Muslims staged a protest outside the Dutch Embassy in Jakarta.

Fitna

Where does the freedom of speech crosses the line and turns into discrimination thus violating article 1 of the Dutch Constitution where discrimination of people on their gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, political view or any other ground is prohibited? This is the same article Wilders is referring to by branding Al-Quran as fascist.

It is not known yet when the movie will go online. So far Wilders has stated the move is finished and he is negotiating a broadcast with Dutch TV stations but this is likely to fail as none of them want to burn their fingers. 28 March 2008 could be a possible date. For anyone interested bookmark www.fitnathemovie.com in your favorites.


415 Comments on “Fitna by Geert Wilders”

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  1. avatar PrimaryDrive says:
    March 7th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    I find Wilders an opportunist with no respect for others. While everyone is entitled to his/her own oppinion, and even to voice out that oppinion, there is a responsibility when tends to bring out the debate to the public. Else we will just turn into barbaric bunch that just throw insults to each other. There are lots of other venues for him to voice his position constructively, and achieves a lot more. But launching a film where he knew would be preceived as an open insult by millions of people is really showing his selfish motives. Shame on Dutch to have such a person in their senate. Shame on Dutch to vote on him. Being one of the richest and most influential country in western Europe, they are supposed to show more mature leadership. Fortunately, not all Dutch people is like Wilders….

  2. avatar C L O S E R » Coming soon…Fitna I says:
    March 8th, 2008 at 12:10 am

    [...] Matters has a lot of attention for Dutch politics and Geert Wilders as well. Where does the freedom of speech crosses the line and turns into discrimination thus [...]

  3. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    March 8th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

    Geert Wilders, who has some Indonesian blood running through his veins, wants to show the world Al-Quran is a fascist and violent book, in line with Hitler’s Mein Kampf, and must be banned.

    I have been told that in Belgium, Holland’s neighbouring country in the south, De Standaard, a leading newspaper with a Christian tenor, has been distributing for a while copies of the Qur’an for free. I think this is a much wiser policy. Book burning and censorship never have had a lasting influence and are on the contrary counterproductive to their purpose.

    IMO if people in the West, who are mostly educated and are used to have free access to all kinds of media, would be encouraged to find out for themselves what the Qur’an and Sunna is all about, they would at least have a more differentiated opinion than what is presented as politically correct by different sources.

    Most people that I know, and I include myself here, who were tolerant of Islam became virulent opponents after reading and realising what this Message and Submission is all about. Since then I refuse to discuss Islamic matters on a personal basis unless my interlocutors have also read the Qur’an and at least part of the hadiths. Otherwise it’s just pembicaraan buntu.

  4. avatar John says:
    March 9th, 2008 at 3:38 am

    Apparently it is not contrary to the Dutch constitution to ban politically incongruent doctrines like those that are expressed in Hitler’s own Mein Kampf.

    After all, we remain free so long as freedom is preserved – yes?

    God bless,
    John

  5. avatar djoko says:
    March 9th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    Muslims just need to get a bit of a thick skin about things like this. The film seems less a critique and more of a rant, so just treat it as such. No need for protests, flag burnings and so on, lets just get on with life.

  6. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    March 9th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    The film seems less a critique and more of a rant, so just treat it as such.

    Before we can judge about that it has to be released first.

  7. avatar Teng says:
    March 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

    Before we can judge about that it has to be released first.

    True. But if you know Geert Wilders, chances are very high it will be a rant. The guy always shouts something, and then when another MP wants to start a discussion, he simply refuses to answer. He’s a demagogue pur sang

  8. avatar Theodore says:
    March 10th, 2008 at 5:14 am

    John, according to the Dutch constitution, there is no problem with laws being a bit unconstitutional. The freedom of expression principle may be harmed somewhat to protect the non discrimination principle and the other way round, for instance. There is a freedom of religion one too.

  9. avatar Murphy says:
    March 10th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    Is Mein Kampf banned in the Netherlands?

  10. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 10th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    @Murphy,

    Possessing or lending the book to someone else is allowed. Selling (also second hand) and reprinting however is forbidden. The Dutch State thinks it owns the copyright of the Dutch translation and subsequently banned the selling and reprinting ever since. Last year Dutch minister of Education, Culture and Science Ronald Plasterk proposed the book should be freely available but a slim majority in Dutch parliament rejected the proposal.

    I have a Dutch translation in PDF-format. I found it interesting to read what drove Adolf Hitler to his views and ideas. Personally I’m against any censorship no matter what so I think it shouldn’t be banned.

    So if Wilders wants to ban al-Quran like Mein Kampf he’s missing the point.

  11. avatar Bas says:
    March 11th, 2008 at 12:59 am

    “Is Mein Kampf banned in the Netherlands?”

    I don’t know, but you can find plenty of it in any Gramedia store…

  12. avatar Tariq says:
    March 11th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    There are, like any other religion, different interpretations of certain verses of their religious book by different religious scholar. Isalm is no exception. There are 72 sect in Islam and they are different. The reasons for this difference being they interpret things differently.That is why they are different. To eliminate this difference there in the behaviour of the Holy Prophet of Islam who lived his life according to the Holy Quran. History is witness of how the arabs were before his arrival and teachings and how he transformed them into civilised human beings. This is what is in the Holy Quran which is a guide to a peaceful society. Wilders should study that first. Secondly wilders should also study the interpretations of these 72 sects before making a conclusion of 15 MINUTES for hundred of years of history and thousands of interpretations. Not intelligent at all. There has been battle in the history of every major religion why targeting Islam then, has he studied the treatment of the Holy Prophet during the times of war and said that there has never been such a good treatment with war prisoners. Clearly his motives are bias and his only intention is to create disorder. Only relying on what is happening in Irak is their interpretation and not the muslim world. If he goes on around he will see that in certain countries like Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh there are muslim majorities who have banned muslim minorities (Ahmadis) just because their interpretation are different. Are the Ahmadis retaliating by terrorism and war? No they are peaceful community which are still bearing atrocities why not making a 15 minutes film on them? With these atrocities they are suffering they still cry the slogan LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE and that is the teaching of the Holy Quran and the Holy prophet of Islam. Their are teachings like this also in Islam. Wilders reserach is incomplete and can be relied upon.

  13. avatar Joe says:
    March 11th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    What Wilders has done should be ignored by muslim world. No violence should result from that.

  14. avatar Erlem says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 5:49 am

    I doubt he’s as stupid as to want Al-Quran banned. Though that may be his message i’d presume his real intentions are to bring up discussion and show what bad influences it can have on people, or in other words his view on what Al-Quran should and shouldn’t be(come).
    I hope and am pretty sure he understands there are a lot of awesome peaceful loving muslims, something which has gotten plenty of attention i believe with every little conflict.
    The protests, threats and demonstrations that occured before we even knew the movie’s message or physical existence showed there is a messed up group of people who prefer harm over discussion, willing to prevent anything that could put their faith to the test.
    Nothing should be ignored, Al-Quran shouldn’t be banned, and muslims shouldn’t fear.
    Well that’s my take on things anyway.

  15. avatar Janma says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    Ever read papers in the middle east? Very very often they have cartoons lampooning the jews, calling infidels all sorts of names, in short insulting them continuously, you don’t see everyone in the world burning the iran flag or the syrian flag as a result hey? You don’t see anyone trying to murder the perpetrators of the cartoons do you? …… what goes around comes around hey? They can’t take it, then don’t dish it out…..

  16. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    ah…the so called ‘democratic’ and ‘liberal’ people celebrating their hypocrisy…..everybody should respect other people’s rights, they say… all other people…except muslim’s….and the film’s own title curiously has explained the contents of the film itself…that it’s nothing but ‘fitnah’….:)

  17. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    “Ever read papers in the middle east? Very very often they have cartoons lampooning the jews, calling infidels all sorts of names, in short insulting them continuously, you don’t see everyone in the world burning the iran flag or the syrian flag as a result hey? You don’t see anyone trying to murder the perpetrators of the cartoons do you? “¦”¦ what goes around comes around hey? They can’t take it, then don’t dish it out”¦..”

    No…they don’t burn flags, the Zionist don’t burn flags, they simply kill more arabs (men,women, children) in Palestine or Lebanon….that’s what they’ll do and that’s what they have been doing since 1948….

  18. avatar Cukurungan says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    Very very often they have cartoons lampooning the jews, calling infidels all sorts of names, in short insulting them continuously, you don’t see everyone in the world burning the iran flag or the syrian flag as a result hey? You don’t see anyone trying to murder the perpetrators of the cartoons do you?

    Ha ha ha ..of course the infidels do not need to burn the Iraq/Iran flag or kill one by one the perpetrators of the infidels cartoon but the infidels have mastered much better method such as took over the Iraq country, screw-up Iraqi boys and women and placing the economic sanctions to Iran

  19. avatar Oigal says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    No”¦they don’t burn flags, the Zionist don’t burn flags, they simply kill more arabs (men,women, children) in Palestine or Lebanon”¦.that’s what they’ll do and that’s what they have been doing since 1948″¦.

    That’s very true..now are you going to tell us about the rocket attacks, the attack by the Arab Nations in 1967 etc etc, perhaps the war between Iraq and Iran for some further background. Just as a matter of balance of course, it would be ignorant just to pose one side of the story wouldn’t it?

    By the way, do take the time to tell us the amount of aid donated to Palestine by them dang infidels as compared to the sum total of aid donated to Palestine by their oil rich brothers…Always good reading..

  20. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Erlem,

    Well said. No matter what the message is, banning Al-Quran is not an option. I encourage Muslims to watch the movie. I’m sure they’re smart enough to dismiss Wilder’s claims Al-Quran is fascist.

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 7:53 am

    Oigal said:

    By the way, do take the time to tell us the amount of aid donated to Palestine by them dang infidels as compared to the sum total of aid donated to Palestine by their oil rich brothers…Always good reading..’

    Me:

    That is not donations but the western infidels compensation for the palestine people who have been sacrificed by them to safe the western society from the wilderness of the Jews. Remember there’s no free lunch with the infidels because everything has been counted in detail, the money is actually no more and no less just cost to create sustainable live TV show programs for the civilized infidels to watch from the safe distance how the master killers have fun and play before finally kill and eat the palestine people.

    Without those compensation money the palestine people would immediately starved to death and no more the TV live show programs for the infidels.

  22. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 9:32 am

    “Well said. No matter what the message is, banning Al-Quran is not an option. I encourage Muslims to watch the movie. I’m sure they’re smart enough to dismiss Wilder’s claims Al-Quran is fascist.”

    I hope so, man….:)

    For Oigal;

    rockets ? you mean that home-made, no guidance what so-ever qassam rockets ? that’s nothing compared to the american made hi-tech precision guided missiles and bombs that the zionists use…qassams has a 99.9% propability of not hitting their targets, while the zionist missiles and bombs are 100% accurate, and still innocent people are getting killed by zionist missiles and bombs, why ?, coz’ they are deliberately targeted by the zionists…..and you should know that the Zionist occupation force targets all Palestinians, that is Muslims and Christians…and every other individuals that stand on their way, including international activists and members of the press….remember Rachel Corrie ? she was an ISM activist form the US, and she was deliberately overrun, and killed by a Zionist Israeli buldozer while protesting the on-going Zionist operation to demolish Palestinian villages….and did the US govt. protested ? nope…not even a squeak !!!

    1967 wars, some excerpts from http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/snakebite/Wars.html

    The 1967 war

    Myth
    Israel claims that its attack against Egypt in June 1967 was a defensive measure to prevent Gamal Abdel Nasser from attacking.

    Fact
    Israel began planning the re-conquest of the Sinai soon after its forced withdrawal in 1956. In 1967, as in 1956, Israel waited for favorable circumstances to put its plan into action.

    In 1967, however, Israel had a greater appreciation of the necessity and utility of a sophisticated publicity campaign, waged through the international media, to convince Western opinion that any Israeli military actions could only be construed as acts of self-defense. This publicity campaign was two-pronged: stressing that the Arabs attacked Israel and that Israel was in danger of annihilation. Both presuppositions were patently false.

    In the early hours of 5 June 1967, Israel announced to a credulous Western world that the Egyptian Air Force had initiated hostile actions. In fact, it was the Israelis who had attacked the Egyptians and destroyed virtually the entire Egyptian Air Force while its fleet was still on the ground.

    General Matityahu Peled, one of the architects of the Israeli conquest, committed what the Israeli public considered blasphemy when he admitted the true thinking of the Israeli leadership: “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war” (Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972). Israeli Air Force General Ezer Weizmann declared bluntly that “there was never any danger of extermination” (Ma’ariv, 19 April 1972). Mordechai Bentov, a former Israeli cabinet minister, also dismissed the myth of Israel’s imminent annihilation: “All this story about the danger of extermination has been a complete invention and has been blown up a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories” (Al Hamishmar, 14 April 1972).

    Another Chief of Staff described how the Israelis ploughed up Arab land and “advanced the ‘frontier’ to their own advantage” (Carl von Horn, Soldiering for Peace, Cassell, 1966, p. 79). Israel attempted to evict the Arabs living on the Golan and annex the demilitarized zone. When the Syrians inevitably responded, Israel claimed that “peaceful” Israeli farmers were being shelled by the Syrians. Unmentioned was the fact that the “farmers” were armed and using tractors and farm equipment to encroach on the demilitarized zone (David Hirst, The Gun and the Olive Branch: the Roots of Violence in the Middle East, Faber and Faber, 1984, pp. 213-15). This was part of a “premeditated Israeli policy [..] to get all the Arabs out of the way by fair means or foul.”

    Shortly after the Syrian response on 7 April 1967, the Israeli Air Force attacked Syria, shooting down six planes, hitting thirty fortified positions and killing about 100 people (Hirst, op. cit., p. 214). It was unlikely that any Syrian guns would have been fired if not for Israel’s provocation. Israel’s need for water also played a role in the 1967 attack. The invasion completed Israel’s encirclement of the headwaters of the Upper Jordan River, its capture of the West Bank and the two aquifers arising there, which currently supply all the groundwater for northern and central Israel.

    In sum, the threat to Israel’s survival in 1967 was non-existent. According to the British newspaper The Observer, Nasser’s purpose was clearly “to deter Israel rather than provoke it to a fight” (The Observer, London, 4 June 1967).

    New York Times columnist James Reston reported that “Egypt does not war [...] certainly is not ready for war” (New York Times, 4 and 5 June 1967).

    The Israelis themselves were perfectly aware of this, given their sophisticated military intelligence capabilities. Later, in the first few days of the war, they were so concerned that their plans for attacking Syria would be discovered that they deliberately attacked the USS Liberty, killing 33 American sailors, in an attempt to prevent it from monitoring war preparations.

    A few months after the war, Yitzhak Rabin remarked: “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai on 14 May would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it” (Le Monde, 29 February 1968).

    Israeli General Peled was even more frank: “To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli army]” (Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972).

    Finally, in 1982, the Israelis admitted that they had started the war (although official Zionist propaganda in the United States still does not acknowledge this fact). Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech delivered at the Israeli National Defense College, clearly stated that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him” (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982).

    so much for that myth, huh ?…:)

    Iraq-Iran War, well Saddam Hussein was clearly on the US payroll, he was supported and armed by the US..and Iran, after the Khomeini Islamic revolution of ’79, and the fall of US puppet king the Shah, was immediately inserted in the US’ targets list….and viable for attacks thru 1st hand or a 2nd hand attacks by US proxies in the mid-east….in this case it was Saddam’s Iraq…

    some of the ‘oil rich brothers’ you mentioned are US proxies, US even has an airbase in Saudi, and they use it to launch attacks on Iraq (an ex-proxy gone bad….hahaha :D) perhaps Iran when the time comes…these tyranic emirs want to stay in power so they turned to the US for protection and obviously have no interest in helping the palestinians….but donations from arabs, muslims and christians came from around the world, even from the not-so ‘oil rich brothers’, like Indonesia….

  23. avatar Oigal says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:10 am

    kill and eat Cannibals as well now..nothing like a well structured rational post to get the day going ..hey chuck?

    Riyoz…So many howlers in that version of History, its would be amusing if didn’t deal with so many lives. However, I can’t wait until you get to next chapter where “man didn’t walk on the moon and their is no such thing as dinosaurs”

    But you miss the point, I have no intention or desire to defend Israel’s actions. I just find it bizarre how people like yourselves can only see one side of everything despite the evidence available. Personally I don;t think there will ever be peace..you speak of facts, this is a fact..the more religion enters the man, the more rational behaviour flees..

    ‘oil rich brothers’ you mentioned are US proxies Yep evil bastards, only one thing for it, lets everyone push for a free and open democracy and let the people decide what they want..

    Do try and answer the question next time tho, cut n paste from this weeks conspirancy web page is boring

  24. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:36 am

    kill and eat Cannibals as well now..nothing like a well structured rational post to get the day going ..hey chuck?

    “Riyoz”¦So many howlers in that version of History, its would be amusing if didn’t deal with so many lives. However, I can’t wait until you get to next chapter where “man didn’t walk on the moon and their is no such thing as dinosaurs”

    But you miss the point, I have no intention or desire to defend Israel’s actions. I just find it bizarre how people like yourselves can only see one side of everything despite the evidence available. Personally I don;t think there will ever be peace..you speak of facts, this is a fact..the more religion enters the man, the more rational behaviour flees..

    ‘oil rich brothers’ you mentioned are US proxies Yep evil bastards, only one thing for it, lets everyone push for a free and open democracy and let the people decide what they want..

    Do try and answer the question next time tho, cut n paste from this weeks conspirancy web page is boring”

    Well..have it your way “chuck”….hehehe…coz’ I’m just trying to share some views….

    One side of everything ? what side might that be if I may ask ? the ‘muslim’s’ side ?

    “the more religion enters the man, the more rational behaviour flees”….that so huh ? now Stalin once said that ‘A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic’….Stalin is obviously not a religious person and perhaps he’s a ‘rational’ person….is this the types of ‘rational’ that you’re advocating ?

    cut n paste from this weeks conspirancy web page is boring” ? so articles from newspapers are ‘conspiracy theories’ now ?

  25. avatar Interested Man says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:59 am

    This movie might be again a rant but one fact is simply and sadly true. The eastern world argues about the value lose in the western world while on the flip side not being much better.

    Many Arabic countries have cruel traditions we do not posses. Form stone killing humans to circumcise females. We have prostitutes yes and drug problems – but we at least do not keep up with traditions which are inhuman. Those two are just few simple examples.

    I am seriously sick of those childish braindeads which freak out the moment the prophets name is used. How often do they freak out when in the name of Alah a suicide bomber kills innocent people? Ha? How often do you voice yourself and say this is wrong? How much does the Muslim community say No to this?

    This is no wonder that the west rather looks down onto the east – we burned witches we blamed the Jews for many diseases we abused law and rights – but that is quite some hundreds of years ago.

    The major problem is not that Islam did not arrive, the people and their culture did not arrive into todays time. A good example is east and west Turkey.

    The Islam can be as corrupt as any other religion. It is not the Islam that is bad – the people which abuse it to their advantage are those to blame – and those who also let them abuse it.

    @ Riyoz

    You sound very much as somebody which quite simply ignores the fact that among the Arabic community the Palestinians we simply sold out – outcasts nobody of the Arabic brotherhood seriously wants to deal with. It is a sad part of this country to always have followed the wrong leaders. Arafat was the Palestinians worst enemy. He sold the people out – or how much money did he funnel away instead of giving those money to the people? But wasn’t that with many other so called leaders in the so uncorrupted Arabic brotherhood the same? Yes yes the western world all we infidels are so bad and corrupted only the pure and fault free Muslims are the good ones.

    Sure the point you simply ignore are politics. Not only the western countries created this disaster in the Middle East also the countries and their leaders there did their part to it.
    Face it.

    Since years peace agreements could have been found and yes claim Israel is using bad manners – they do but it is not they case that from Palestinians not harm and chaos is coming as well. Or how is the current political situation there?

    But again in the name of Allah I blow up some infidels again. Wait what did they use at one point? A handicapped boy as a suicide bomber? Man that is some hart crap amazing morals to misuse a mentally challenged boy in this game. They are not cut enough to run and blow them self up?

    To my knowledge before the war also Palestine had the chance to claim their own state but well weren’t there some surrounding countries which wages war?

    Oh the bad west people … wait I know we had crusaders and as I said I am not ignoring the dark parts of the former western culture. But weren’t there also non-Christian armies invading Europe?

    I am not in favor of calling everybody who believes in Allah a possible terrorist.
    Even after the death of “Theo van Gogh” only underlined the mentally abused state of specific individuals which numbers has to be at a significant level. You only see the iceberg tip. However I am seriously tired of crying hurt boy reactions when somebody makes a funny cartoon about a specific person and hitting the nail on the head.

    In case it is bad to use Mohamed in this context in cartoons than Moslem world stand up united when in the name of Allah somebody innocent is killed – grow up and be respected or seriously SHUT THE F*CK UP.

    In case this would happen than that all Islamic phobia would have no breading ground at all. It is a problem that comes from within the Muslim community and only you as a unite can deal with it.

  26. avatar Interested Man says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Religion counter works rationality?

    So I as a faithful person who can divide between spiritual believe
    and factual based thinking have no religious quality?

    No religion can be bad – it is only the person who abuses it.

    And there are many who simply cannot use their brain cells and think
    for their own.

    What did Marx say: Religion is the opium for the mass. Sadly this is
    sometimes very true.

  27. avatar Oigal says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Stalin is obviously not a religious person and perhaps he’s a ‘rational’ person

    Ah the oldie but sad defence of the indoctrinated, which can be an interesting debate in it’s own right. I would agree that he was not rational (or perhaps rational just a bloody immoral). But people like Stalin, Hitler, the “dear leader” (pick a despot) prove my point.

    They themselves created a religion (all religions are man made anyway) appointing themselves as the head Deity on Earth along with all the bizarre little rituals that come with the dark fanasties. The more they to create a climate of worship, the less people culd question or apply any rational analysis. Want a perfect example of the creation of a religion, check out North Korea even comes with its own life after death bit where the Dear Leader’s dirty ol man is laid out in state but still the official head of the country (I also like the push to suggest that the ol perv was reborn into his son)

    Thanks for making my point so well

    the ‘muslim’s’ side ?

    mmm tad arrogant don’t you think claiming to speak for all Muslims, still there has never any shortage of that in any religion as well, self appointed representatives.

    Why don’t try humanist point of view..thats were you see the women and children on both sides getting slaughtered and are equally offended by the religious loons who create such evil in the name of an indifferent “big daddy in the sky”

  28. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    Humanist point of view, huh ?….here are some numbers :

    Reported by If Americans Knew by March 2008:

    119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 982 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

    1,031 Israelis and at least 4,528 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

    6,845 Israelis and 31,815 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

    During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians.

    Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967

    The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%.

    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. [3]

    Please tell me what these numbers mean you, from your humanist point of view…. and btw, the Zionist are not ‘religious’ they’re secular-ethnocentric nationalist at the core and they’re doing it for the money and control….Palestinians are merely defending their freedom, their homeland that’s under Zionist brutal military occupation since 1948….man, can’t your ‘humanist’ pair of eyes see that ? you said that you’re not an israeli advocate and you “have no intention or desire to defend Israel’s actions”, yet you fail to see the bigger picture of what’s happening in Palestine…? that’s really weird……I’ve tried to post some historical facts and you merely labelled them as as crazy ‘conspiracy theory’….ckckck…..

    “mmm tad arrogant don’t you think claiming to speak for all Muslims, still there has never any shortage of that in any religion as well, self appointed representatives”

    nah…I did’t say that, I was asking you as to which side do you think I represent ?

    “Ah the oldie but sad defence of the indoctrinated”, ah…and you are not ‘indoctrinated’ by your own thoughts ?….I tell you…everyone’s indoctrinated…and everyone who hold firm their beliefs are basically indoctrinated and became ‘fundamentalists’ to that belief…..

  29. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    @ Riyoz

    You sound very much as somebody which quite simply ignores the fact that among the Arabic community the Palestinians we simply sold out – outcasts nobody of the Arabic brotherhood seriously wants to deal with. It is a sad part of this country to always have followed the wrong leaders. Arafat was the Palestinians worst enemy. He sold the people out – or how much money did he funnel away instead of giving those money to the people? But wasn’t that with many other so called leaders in the so uncorrupted Arabic brotherhood the same? Yes yes the western world all we infidels are so bad and corrupted only the pure and fault free Muslims are the good ones.

    Sure the point you simply ignore are politics. Not only the western countries created this disaster in the Middle East also the countries and their leaders there did their part to it.
    Face it.

    Since years peace agreements could have been found and yes claim Israel is using bad manners – they do but it is not they case that from Palestinians not harm and chaos is coming as well. Or how is the current political situation there?”

    Yes, I know that Arafat and Fatah was and is corrupt, Fatah’s Muhammad Dahlan even ask the Israelis for weapons and ammos when the plan to get rid of Hamas when they lose the 2006 election….heck, I even think that the whole idea of a Palestinian Authority under Zionist Israeli occupation is a very very sick joke….I’m fairly aware of the politics, sir….but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try help those people out or better yet, to stop the brutal Zionist Israeli occupation on their homeland, does it ?….and all of this wouldn’t be happening if the Zionist didn’t invade and occupy Palestine in 1948, would it ?…I mean, I’m not against Jews living in Palestine or in any other places, as a matter of fact, they have the same rights as other human beings to live in whatever place they chose to live….but the Zionist are doing way beyond that, they’re trying to create a Jewish only state by occupying somebody else’s home land and forcefully expelled the land’s native inhabitants….and that, to me, is wrong ! It’s a classic invasion and colonialization scheme, sir….

    I’m not saying that all Arabs or Muslims are saints and fault free, and all Westerners (or ‘infidels’, if you prefer) are corrupt, bad and rotten to the core….nope, I’m not saying that….we are merely normal human beings prone to mistakes….there’re bad and good people every where, and I surely hope that the good people of this world will unite and stop what ever attrocities are being commited by the bad ones….

  30. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    “Well said. No matter what the message is, banning Al-Quran is not an option. I encourage Muslims to watch the movie. I’m sure they’re smart enough to dismiss Wilder’s claims Al-Quran is fascist.”

    I hope so, man”¦.:)

    Do you hope Muslims are smart enough or are you worried Wilders may have some valid points?

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