Female Genital Mutilation

March 3rd, 2008, in News, by Patung

Foreign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.

United Nations

On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.

UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:

If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.

In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: [1]

MUI

Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:

What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.

He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.

Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.

Java

Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:

In general it is done.

The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.

FGM
April 2006, Bandung. [2]

He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.

Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.

When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. [3]

Tags: Circumcision, Debates, East Java, Ethnic, Health, Health Department, Indonesians, Islam, Islamic, Java, Madurese, Magazines, Majelis Ulama Indonesia, Male Circumcision, Midwives, MUI, Muslimat, Nahdlatul Ulama, Religion, Religions, Sex Drive, Surabaya, Ulama, Women, Youth

129 Comments on “Female Genital Mutilation”

Sylvester Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:22 am
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.

Is it a form of discrimination against women in Islam? Is it the evidence that women status are lower than men in Islam? Is it an evidence that Moslem women are simply just tools that can be manipulated by Moslem men? So men are OK to be sex-animal? Is it why Arabs men are sex animals, having wives, and raping TKW? I have never seen this kind of thing in other major religions or even in the communist society. Everybody should respect other cultures/religions, but this thing is beyond tolerance.
Janma Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:34 am
that photo really got me worked up….. the poor little girl looks so terrified! I want to scream!
Amir Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
My only aim to still alive now is killing Prof. Dr. Chuzaimah T. Yanggo…
I would like so much to see him face off…
Kill this kind of people solves more than thousands of dollars in “Education”..
Odinius Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:28 am
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.

Wait…isn’t that a good description of what MUI does? Men interfering in religious practices?

Agree with both Janma and Amir. What a d*ck.

But I have to ask: how common is this in Indonesia?
ecky Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:47 am
What I know is that female circumcision usually done right after the baby was born, not when she’s already teen.

That photo is really rare occasion.
sputjam Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:50 am
beleive me! the more religious the muslims are, the further away from will they deviate from the messages in the koran. Some ulamas even reject koran messages, hence the sufferings you witness in states with large concentration of people from the religion of islam.
Silverlines Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
When I delivered my Baby several years ago in a quite famous hospital in Jakarta, they consciously, and very confidently, offered to have my daughter gets a “khitan”. I did not, take the offer, very consciously and also confidently, because I’d learned of the purpose. And to me it is non-sense to have different way of treatment between men and women.

The point is, it was quite a surprise for me to have a non-religion-based hospital offered a female circumcision, and it only proved that it is such a long way to go for Indonesia to recognise the effort to eliminate the female genital mutilation, despite that it is already internationally recognized as a violation of human rights. I still think, regardless of how it is being done, the purpose is the same, and it is only shows that female does not have the same right with male, not particularly on this matter, but on some other matters as well.

PS: Is it why that some female never knew how it feels to have orgasm?
tomaculum Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I wonder if Chuzaimah T. Yanggo herself is circumcised and in which subject she did her postdoctoral qualification (Prof.?Maybe in “Ways to eliminate your lust”?), and as far as I know the male, whichever god or ghost he idolizes, are more active in sexual things. So why not cutting penis instead woman circumcision?
Besides: sex is one of the natural drive like drinking and eating. I am astonished that Islam teach us to do something against the nature.
Enigmatic Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:

In general it is done.

The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.

HOHOHO doesnt it show that these sick dicks are treating women as umm sex objects?

Just my thoughts.
Lairedion Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Here is a link with some information of the practice of FGM in Indonesia. It is somewhat outdated:

http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10102.htm

The sheer thought of new-born babies and women being tortured really drives me mad. My Sundanese wife had to endure type IV (pricking of clitoris) of FGM shortly after birth because it was common practice in certain areas in West Java (in this case Cianjur). In this case it was performed without consent and in absence of my parents-in-law! This was a very painful experience for them because they were non-Muslim Sundanese (a rarity) and my father-in-law up until today suspects the hospital staff have performed the FGM deliberately because of them being non-Muslim Sundanese.

Thank “God” it didn’t result in permanent injuries and a lesser sexual drive

I know circumcision is not a practice limited to Islam and predates Islam but since the MUI feels the need to open its filthy mouth again I would like to challenge any Muslims here to explain and justify why creations of Allah, who is considered perfect and beyond questioning or doubts, are not regarded that perfect after all and need a “little scraping and cutting” afterwards? It’s probably sunnah and hadith again but are there any Quranic verses endorsing this?
Brett Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:59 pm
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.

Just as a matter of interest, are there any Quranic verses endorsing this? I mean, come on! This is COMPLETELY different to male circumcision. It’s the same as chopping off the end of your dick. Sorry, that was crass, but it’s true.
Odinius Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 pm
I know circumcision is not a practice limited to Islam and predates Islam but since the MUI feels the need to open its filthy mouth again I would like to challenge any Muslims here to explain and justify why creations of Allah, who is considered perfect and beyond questioning or doubts, are not regarded that perfect after all and need a â€œlittle scraping and cuttingâ€ afterwards?

I think you just hit on the answer maybe without knowing it…it’s not a religious practice at all and can’t be justified through scripture. It’s a cultural practice that people think equates with following their religion, but it in fact has nothing to do with it.
Lairedion Says:
March 4th, 2008 at 4:32 am
Odinius,

I do know I hit on the answer.

According to this article

In communities where FGM is a traditional practice, it is practiced by community members who are Muslims, Christians, animist and even non believers. However, Muslims who practise FGM rationalize it as a Muslim religious obligation in spite of the fact that FGM predates Islam and it is interesting to note that globally most Muslims do not practise FGM.

FGM has no link with Islam and is a neither a requirement nor a Sunna in Islam. All FGM related Hadith that are allegedly attributed to Prophet Muhammad {Peace Be Upon Him} have been proved to be inauthentic.

Words like “sunna” and “tahur” used for FGM by Muslims erroneously endorse the link of Islam to FGM and brings the great religion into disrepute. All religions say God created human beings in the best forms and wanted them to keep the nature in which they were created. It is forbidden to make changes in God’s creation unless there is a compelling reason i.e. for medical reasons.

A number of Islamic scholars have issued various Islamic Fatwa on the issue of FGM most of which have disassociated FGM from Islam quoting both Quran as well as Hadith.

Dr.Muhammad Lutfi al-Sabbagh, Professor of Islamic studies at King Saud University in Riyadh states:

“Since all these risks are involved in female circumcision, it cannot be legitimate under Islamic law, particularly since nothing that recommends it is definitely established as said by the Prophet {Peace Be Upon Him}. It is, however, established that he has said: “Do not harm yourself or others”. This hadith is one of the basic principles of this True Religion.

Female Genital Mutilation is therefore neither a religious requirement or obligation, nor a sunna. This is the view taken by a great number of scholars in the absence of any hadith that may be authentically attributed to the Prophet {Peace Be Upon Him}.”

But why is it that the Shafi’i religious school of law, prevalent in Indonesia, rules that clitoridectomy is mandatory so MUI can justify it also and dictate fatwa’s to the ignorant populace?
Hugh Says:
March 4th, 2008 at 5:35 am
Genital cutting on those who don’t give their informed consent (unless there is some pressing medical need) is wrong whatever “religion” says.

(Some religions say one thing, some say another, but anyway, babies don’t have a religion.)

It is wrong because it takes away that person’s choice about how to deal with their own body.

And it is wrong whether the person is male or female.
Odinius Says:
March 4th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
But why is it that the Shafi’i religious school of law, prevalent in Indonesia, rules that clitoridectomy is mandatory so MUI can justify it also and dictate fatwa’s to the ignorant populace?

Does it though? You never know when these things are rational or just the result of path-dependent processes. Maybe they justify it because it’s “been done for so long.”

In any event, it’s an extremely distasteful practice and, unlike male circumcision, carries grave health consequences.
Lairedion Says:
March 5th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Does it though? You never know when these things are rational or just the result of path-dependent processes. Maybe they justify it because it’s â€œbeen done for so long.â€

In the case of Indonesia this is not likely. Islam became dominant in Java and Sumatra only at the end of the 16th century. I cannot find records FGM was practiced in pre-Islamic Indonesia.

For the Shafi’i school information here’s the link.

Circumcision: Juristic, Medical & Social Perspectives - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Hugh Says:
March 5th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Maybe they justify it because it’s â€œbeen done for so long.â€

In any event, it’s an extremely distasteful practice and, unlike male circumcision, carries grave health consequences.

“Because it’s been done for so long” is one of the justifications for male circumcision, also an extremely distasteful practice, which may carry grave health consequences (up to and including death).

The case against female genital cutting is strengthened, not weakened, when male genital cutting is not compared favourably with it. Both are evils, both should end.

Odinius, thanks for the expression “path-dependent processes”, which led me to the expressions “bandwaggon effect” and “network effect” - both very useful in explaining the longevity of genital cutting.
Murphy Says:
March 5th, 2008 at 10:48 am
The female “circumsision” in Indonesia is normally just a prick of needle, enough to produce a drop of blood and it was performed on babies; not on a child like the above picture. It is not clitoris mutilation like what they practised in Africa. Many younger parents now did not even bother to do this. There’s nothing in the Quran that ask muslims to “circumsize” women. I agree with Oidinius on this. It’s a cultural practice that takes religious mantle.

On the other hand: have you ever met an Indonesian woman with a mutilated clitoris? I haven’t checked that many to make a statistical conclusion, but I am yet to find one example.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 5th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
It’s a cultural practice that takes religious mantle.

Even so, does this make it more respectable? Are we really supposed to respect such a ‘religion’?
Murphy Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 8:14 am
The African genital mutilation? No. If you want to send petition to those African governments, remind me to put my signature on it.

But the Indonesian version of it? Who cares? It’s harmless, and it’s getting out of date very fast.

While I completely disagree with Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh on her sex drive theory (Indonesian women with reduced sex drive? Come on), I agree with her on her other statement. It’s just not worth debating.
Janma Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 8:52 am
On the other hand: have you ever met an Indonesian woman with a mutilated clitoris?

How would you know Murphy!? You said you haven’t checked any, most women wouldn’t volunteer the info, even if they knew if they had it or not….. it happens all the time. I’m a midwife and many many parents and hospitals still practice the procedure.
Murphy Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I said I haven’t checked THAT MANY. ma’am. I did check; but out of modesty I couldn’t tell you how many or how I did my inspection and thus no generalisations can come out of this “research” other than I am yet to find example of women with mutilated clitoris.

Yes, you are right. Many parents in Indonesia still practice the “circumcision”, but they never cut the clitoris. Most just do symbolic wash or prick with a needle to get a drop of blood. Worst case, they cut small part of the clitoris hood (equivalent of male’s foreskin). And that, as I said, is harmless.
Bas Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 11:15 am
This is not the clitoris but vaginal lips surface that are cut off (a part of it). During 15 years I did checked too, let’s say a dozen times and more than half of them were mutilated. Most didn’t remember it, some were not aware of it. Sounds like they don’t want to remember it, kind of taboo thing or just something not be discussed of. They admit it but seem to not care about it at all (?). Well I guest some friends of mine with their hundreds and maybe thousands of Indonesian pussy inspections could tell more about it…
spew-it-all Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I’ve written up this topic in my blog.

http://spew-it-all.blogspot.com/2008/02/pretty-little-thing.html
Cukurungan Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Bas said:

Well I guest some friends of mine with their hundreds and maybe thousands of Indonesian pussy inspections could tell more about it…’

me :

Bas and Janma could work side by side to do random pussy inspection for both muslim pussy and non-muslim pussy let
to be fair it should be conducted in the public area. Once you complete this inspection you might give your report finding in this forum.

I guest the result of the pussy inspection would be like this:

The muslim and the non-muslim pussy almost couldn’t be differentiate in its appearance but the smell of thr non-muslim pussy are much stronger than the muslim pussy because the muslim pussy always regularly get clean-up at least 5time a day whereas the non-muslim pussy don’t get wash even after she urinate.
Goobers Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Cuk,
Sounds that you got so offended by some people comment and make your comment so irrational and “kampungan”. How sad!
Subrata Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 3:37 am
Cukurungan does not have to be offended by anyone, he is just “kampungan dari sono nya”.
Hugh Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 3:59 am
How does Murphy know that cutting the clitoral hood or the male foreskin is “harmless”? Boys die of circumcision (though it gets blamed on haemorrhage or infection or anaesthetic complications or anything but the circumcision itself) every so often, and lesser complications are much commoner than people imagine - not to mention the harm that happens in every case by the removal of sensitive tissue that has a number of valuable functions.

We don’t know nearly so much about the role of the clitoral prepuce, but since it is there, it is almost certainly there for a purpose (if you’re religious) or with a function (if you’re not).
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 7:39 am
Ass. Cuk

The muslim and the non-muslim pussy almost couldn’t be differentiate in its appearance …..

I don’t think pussies can be differentiate at all.

….. but the smell of thr non-muslim pussy are much stronger than the muslim pussy because the muslim pussy always regularly get clean-up at least 5time a day whereas the non-muslim pussy don’t get wash even after she urinate.

Besides it is haram to pray in a masjid with smelly pussies.
Cukurungan Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I don’t think pussies can be differentiate at all.

I mean it will be some difference between the intact pussy vs the mutilated pussy, so why I asked the rubbish teller to check and do inspection by themself get the fact and if neccesary with a picture to prove whether the genital mutilation does exist in Indonesia muslim society or not.
Murphy Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Hugh,

Sure, while we’re at it let’s campaign against tattoo, earring, nose ring, and other causes for body mutilations. You see, “many so often” people die from ear piercing related infection…

We don’t know nearly so much why earlobes or noses or nipples or bellybuttons do not come with built-in piercing, but since it is not there, it is almost certainly not there for a purpose (if you’re religious) or with a function (if you’re not).
Hugh Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 10:52 am
I didn’t say “many so often” I said “every so often”. Murphy’s analogy (instead of answering what I did say) is just silly because:
* Murphy assumes with no proof that tattooing and piercing are harmless, but in fact HIV can be transmitted by tattooing, and probably other diseases as well.
* We don’t usually do those to unwilling children or non-consenting babies (tattooing??) and those we do, are also human rights violations, but I don’t have time to campaign against them myself. Feel free. However,
* Most piercings will close up again if someone decides they don’t want them. The foreskin and the clitoral prepuce do not grow back (without a lot of help in the case of the male foreskin, I don’t know about the other one).
* Murphy’s rough cut-and-paste of my last sentence makes a whole lot less sense. How can an absence have either a purpose or a function? (”Nearly so much” refers back to my previous sentence, which Murphy doesn’t quote and doesn’t answer.)

Now where were we? I asked how Murphy knows that clitoral hood cutting and foreskin removal are “harmless” and gave examples where they are not.
Parvita Says:
March 8th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Any mutilation on part of the body is not written in the Qur’an, including men circumcision. Find it here

The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.

This women definetely doesn’t have enough sex experiences, let alone a good one, to speak about sex drive. People in MUI talking about sex drive? What a laugh.

IF this were practised largely in Indonesia, I will start giving courses on where to find G-spot, mass produce dildos that can find G-spots. Increase men’s sex drive? Pasak bumi. Testosterone shots. Guarantee blisters from 30 hours of aerobic bed exercise.

Reduce women sex drive? Tell the men to grow beard and never wash it, and wear pink underwear. THAT would be a major turn off already without mutilation.

Yeah, Pink Underwears and Pink Thongs should be a moslem men’s uniform.
Murphy Says:
March 8th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
You see, there are pro-life people, there are pro-choice ones. There are religious people, there are atheist ones. There are capitalists, there are socialists.

And now there are another pair of camps: the pro-foreskins and the anti-foreskins.

Fine with me, too. Everyone is entitled to their political opinion.

I just don’t understand why this subject is worth wasting the earth precious oxygen.
Hugh Says:
March 9th, 2008 at 5:37 am
I see, unable to answer facts, Murphy now (on his fourth post) tells us the subject is not worth considering.

Here are some other “camps” with their “political opinions”:
* pro-slavery and anti-slavery
* pro-footbinding and anti-footbinding
* pro-castration and anti-castration
* pro-suttee and anti-suttee (widow “suicide”)
Sure, genital cutting isn’t as important as slavery or suttee or castration, but it’s very similar to footbinding (Chinese men of a certain caste considered the bound foot to be highly erotic).
The point is, they are all human rights issues, but those battles are all but won.
And if “the subject is not worth wasting the earth’s precious oxygen” (which wasn’t in short supply, the last time I breathed in), why do it?
Murphy Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
How do I know it’s harmless? As of today, about 150 million Indonesians f*ck each other every night and I am yet to hear news about nation-wide health and sexual issues due to male or female circumcision (Indonesian style, not the African one). I didn’t mention that because I thought that should be very obvious .

I “met” few Indonesian women who said that they were circumcised and found that their clitoris AND the hood were still there. And there’s no way to tell how much of the hood was cut because you just can’t tell and they just don’t care. I think you can cross-check that fact with the Blok-M-frequenting folks here.

The examples that you quoted are clear cases. It’s hard to find one with right mind in the internet that advocates for slavery, foot binding, suicide, castration, or in our case removing the clitoris, African-style. If you want to debate those subjects, cyberspace is not the right place. You should bring your case in the house of tribal chief in some remote islands where “civilisation” is yet to come.

And for the record: I’m not advocating for removal of foreskin. I will not present the benefit of circumcision if that’s what you’re looking for. I just don’t care and I’m defending my right to not care
Hugh Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Sorry but what Murphy has yet to hear about could fill lots of books. Just because something still works, after a fashion, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been harmed.

It sounds as though Indonesian-style hood-nicking does much less harm than most other practices, but it’s still painful and terrifying and unnecessary and a violation of human rights.

I don’t of course want to debate slavery etc, and I never said I did. There is general agreement that they are human rights violations, and it’s about time genital cutting, ALL genital cutting, joined the list.

Murphy has defended his right not to care for five messages now. That’s very busy not-caring. Wonder how many he’d post if he DID care….?
Cukurungan Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I don’t of course want to debate slavery etc, and I never said I did. There is general agreement that they are human rights violations, and it’s about time genital cutting, ALL genital cutting, joined the list.

Murphy has defended his right not to care for five messages now. That’s very busy not-caring. Wonder how many he’d post if he DID careâ€¦.?

It is great if you really care about the genital cutting issue in here why you do not join Mr Bas and Bu Janma to conduct assessment on the pussy damage caused by circumcision as my previous post.

After that you can arrange the Indonesia Pussy Rehabilitation program and as our grateful I would recommend you to be nominated as Nobel Price Winner for special program of the Indonesia Pussy Revival
Hugh Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Basically Cuk, because I don’t share your contempt for women.
Matt Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Hehehe…..

I can only says this: Another fine example of human beings trying to play “God”… And that is not targeted at any particular religion…

As I see it: Religious is a human interpretation of divinity. Therefore, it is subjected to human error. The so-called ‘right’ religions are those who make the loudest ‘noise’. So if someone comes around and says “This is right, or that is wrong”, I hope people shouldn’t just take it without ever pause to consider it logically. Directly addressing the issue of FGM, it is my thought that the word “mutilation” have already explain itself quite clearly… (For those who doesn’t understand… please check it out with any dictionary)

I confess to be an atheist, but I do respect individual’s right to have their own faith, provided it is a personal relationship with their chosen god.

Good days to all…
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
No religious issue is complete without consulting the wisdom of Pak Aluang.

On this pussy thingy, Sheikh Cuk is more accurate. I have to agree with him that Indonesia Muslims do not cases of pussy damages. Unlike overseas Muslims who ’stupidly’ cut away the clitoris to satisfy Islamic requirement, female circumcision here is done by scrapping of the foreskin.

Don’t compare us with smelly African Muslims or Curry or Kebab Eater Muslims; just because they multilate pussies do not mean we have to follow them.

Case closed.

Salam.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
No religious issue is complete without consulting the wisdom of Pak Aluang.

On this pussy thingy, Sheikh Cuk is more accurate. I have to agree with him that Indonesia Muslims do not have cases of pussy damages. Unlike overseas Muslims who ’stupidly’ cut away the clitoris to satisfy Islamic requirement, female circumcision here is done by scrapping of the foreskin.

Don’t compare us with smelly African Muslims or Curry or Kebab Eater Muslims; just because they multilate pussies do not mean we have to follow them.

Case closed.

Salam.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Patung, change the last sentence to this:

just because they are stupid doesn’t mean we are stupid.
Msarifi Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
What stupid comments… LOL … we have an entire group of pussy specialists here … and none with a pussy either. Get a life guys … or should I say … get a pussy!
Cukurungan Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Mas Aluang,

We don’t need to close the case immediately because we aren’t the same and a human with the lesser brain size need more time to learn than the normal size one.

salam,
Cheer Man
Bas Says:
March 11th, 2008 at 12:41 am
“The muslim and the non-muslim pussy almost couldn’t be differentiate in its appearance but the smell of thr non-muslim pussy are much stronger than the muslim pussy because the muslim pussy always regularly get clean-up at least 5time a day whereas the non-muslim pussy don’t get wash even after she urinate.”

Nonsense. On a daily base. Non Muslims and Muslims pussies get exactly the same - bad - treatment based on infected water washing. And they catch so many deceases. No discrimination here.
Have you never read “Kering itu bersih” on toilets doors in Malls for example? “Dry is clean”. That’s true for pussies.

My recommendation to Indonesian women who need a cleaner pussy is to use their own tissues. Not the contaminated stagnant water they find in Indonesian toilets “ember”.
Janma Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Murphy, I know you don’t care, but I would like to see how you feel when you watch a newborn baby girl have her little bits scraped with a sharp needle. It does hurt. Just look at the girls faces in the photo’s in this article and then tell me ‘no harm done’!
Riyoz Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Women and childen are getting murdered by the hundreds in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq….and the UN is wasting time and money on khitan !!!!!…….please !!!
Murphy Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Mbak Janma,

Then you must attend a sunatan massal festival at the kampung near you. I can assure you, it’s a once in a lifetime experience. Worth every ounce of the Visit Indonesia Year 2008 hype.
Oigal Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Women and childen are getting murdered by the hundreds in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq

I concur, there must be a way to stop the Muslim brothers from blowing another up.
Hugh Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 3:07 am
Riyoz, there are many evils in the world, and just because some are worse than others doesn’t mean we have to give ALL our attention to the worst.

Murphy seems to enjoy others’ pain. And he doesn’t seem to be the only one.
Cukurungan Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Riyoz, there are many evils in the world, and just because some are worse than others doesn’t mean we have to give ALL our attention to the worst.Murphy seems to enjoy others’ pain. And he doesn’t seem to be the only one.

Ok let give our attention to below :

CDC Issues New Estimate for Number of Deaths Caused by Obesity
________________________________________

Food Insight
NewsBite
May/June 2005

Researchers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) issued a new estimate of the number of deaths caused by obesity. This estimate was published in an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA 2005;293(15):1861-1867). The new estimate is 112,000 deaths per year which is significantly lower than a previous estimate of 365,000 deaths per year.

Because the food caused much more death to American than Al-Qaida let ban the Kid for eating the food. Do we need to say so?
Riyoz Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 9:44 am
“I concur, there must be a way to stop the Muslim brothers from blowing another up.”

Hmm…I didn’t know the Israeli Army, The Israel Air Force or The US Army drafted Muslim brothers ?…..;D..wake up, man !

“Riyoz, there are many evils in the world, and just because some are worse than others doesn’t mean we have to give ALL our attention to the worst.”

I agree, but the question here is…have we ? have we give ALL our attention to the worst attrocities ? better yet, have give ALL our efforts to STOP IT ?…..
Hugh Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 9:45 am
If that’s some kind of argument by analogy, perhaps you could explain it. Or is it a distraction to cover a lack of an argument?
Oigal Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Hmmâ€¦I didn’t know the Israeli Army, The Israel Air Force or The US Army drafted Muslim brothers ?â€¦..;D..wake up, man !

Not withstanding the rights and wrongs of eithier groups, tribes, gatherings, mobs..

Seems to me that a quick (and tragic) count would show many many more (By a factor of x)Muslim brothers and sisters have been blown up, murdered, slaughted by their (so-called) own..than by anyone else.

Perhaps you and I get our information from different places (or worse ignore the bits that don’t fit with our twisted little narratives)
Riyoz Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“Not withstanding the rights and wrongs of eithier groups, tribes, gatherings, mobs..

Seems to me that a quick (and tragic) count would show many many more (By a factor of x)Muslim brothers and sisters have been blown up, murdered, slaughted by their (so-called) own..than by anyone else.

Perhaps you and I get our information from different places (or worse ignore the bits that don’t fit with our twisted little narratives)”

‘more…..than by anyone else’….I wonder…..do you have any ‘quick count’ to show how many Christian brothers and sisters killed by their so-called own ? better yet, quick counts for other religious and non-religious groups that have been killed by their own, aswell….
Sad Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
I am a 32 yr old Indonesian woman. I had FGM performed on me when I was a baby. I come from a very religious Muslim family but thank God I am not a Muslim anymore. FGM is endorsed by that religion (there are hadiths to suppert FGM) and it is a cruel way to further torture and degrade women. Nothing good can come from FGM and what endorses it.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:46 am
Oigal Says:

March 12th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Women and childen are getting murdered by the hundreds in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq

I concur, there must be a way to stop the Muslim brothers from blowing another up.

Christians murdering Muslims, the Christians go to hell. Muslim brothers blowing up each other, we are following Allah’s instruction and we all go to heaven with 70 plus virgins waiting for us.

Why do you filthy kaffir care if we blow ourselves up?
Oigal Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
we are following Allah’s instruction and we all go to heaven with 70 plus virgins waiting for us.

Wouldn’t it be easier just to get a girl friend here? Or course that would mean you may actually have to talk to a female other than your mother. By the way, I heard a rumour that the 70 odd virgins (and what did they do wrong to deserve the demented) were actually catholic nuns?

Why do you filthy kaffir care if we blow ourselves up? Eer who does, just the innocent bystanders

‘moreâ€¦..than by anyone else’â€¦.I wonderâ€¦..do you have any ‘quick count’ to show how many Christian brothers and sisters killed by their so-called own ? better yet, quick counts for other religious and non-religious groups that have been killed by their own, aswellâ€¦.

Weak Rizzo ..very weak indeed
Cukurungan Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Pak Oigal,

Let me help your aging brain to retrieve the history ….50 millions Christian killed by their own in WW 1&2
and more than 3 millions killed during France and Germany Christian War…remember it happened even after 1900 years birthdays of Jesus while Islam until today has not yet reach 1500 years after Birth of Islam Prophet.

So the conclusion that the reputation of the Evil in the Islamic World’s is not yet even close to the Evil Christianity.

Is that still weak Sir?

Regard,
Cheer Man
Riyoz Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
“Weak Rizzo ..very weak indeed”

whatever…just state the requested numbers, please….hehehehe…remember it’s for all religious and non-religious groups…:)…you may aswell state the overall crime rates in your own country…..

â€œLet me help your aging brain to retrieve the history â€¦.50 millions Christian killed by their own in WW 1&2 and more than 3 millions killed during France and Germany Christian Warâ€¦remember it happened even after 1900 years birthdays of Jesus while Islam until today has not yet reach 1500 years after Birth of Islam Prophet.â€

ah..yesâ€¦those sad, sad historyâ€¦..pretty sad isn’t itâ€¦.
Riyoz Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
“I come from a very religious Muslim family but thank God I am not a Muslim anymore.”

Well, we’ll miss you and don’t forget to write….
Purba Negoro Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 2:09 am
The ignorant comments that lump us cultured Indonesians in with the peasants of Arabia highlight the ignorance of the West.

Most likely the hookers the whites either sleep with or marry are Muslim and have been Sunat (circumcised) too.
Sunat literally means “obeying the Suna or Holy Law”.

Now as a Javanese- I proudly can tell you my daughter was sunat- in Central Java this means a Imam cutting a bay leaf in a purely symbolic Hindu era ceremony. She has all of her equipment.

Of course, far more informed than blustery bule is the UN World Health Organisation which determines there are four types of Female Genital Cutting.

Type I
Removal or splitting of the clitoral hood, termed “hoodectomy” (or “clitorodotomy”), with or without excision of the clitoris, see Diagram 1B.
The clitoral hood is identical/homologous to the penile foreskin.

In the West it is quite a common gynaecological procedure for women with labial problems and sexual issues.
The circumcision of the clitoris allows the woman to be far more sexually responsive as her organ is more exposed.
Anyone with an Indonesian wife can vouch for this fact. It also explains our enormous population.
Rathman (1959) also indicates: “87.5 % had superior sexual experiences post-operative” and the procedure takes only ten days to heal.

Type 1 is actually also a Hindu tradition and I am informed by an Indian colleague that it is considered normal procedure for practice for female infants with genital malformations.

Unlike the West- we do not blindly beleive the shrill unsbstantiated rhetoric of the feminists’ subjective and ill-reasoned view that all things female are inherently beautiful and pure.
The reality is malformations and clinical problems must be rectified via surgery.

Type II
“excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora.”[, called khafd, meaning reduction in Arabic. According to an Iraqi doctor- this is a rare procedure performed on female infants with hormonal androgenic problems.

Type III: “pharaonic circumcision.” excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation).
This is prevalent ONLY to Affrica and parts of similarly barbarous Middle East.

Type IV: Other types
This includes a diverse range of practices, including pricking the clitoris with needles, burning or scarring the genitals as well as ripping or tearing of the vagina or introducing herbs into the vagina to cause bleeding and a narrowed vaginal opening.

According to a US governmental report on Female Genital Mutilation in Indonesia:
97/100 Kemayoran mothers had their girls. Trained midwives or physicians circumcised the baby girls using a blood lancet or sewing needle to prick the clitoris until bleeding occurred. However, some midwives merely wiped the clitoris with alcohol and bethadine. This procedure took place when the girl was 40 days to five years old.

IN West Java 100/100 claimed their female children had been circumcised. Traditional birth attendants… cut a small piece of the prepuce (clitoral hood) or the clitoris itself until bleeding occurred. This procedure was performed when the baby was about 40 days old.

In Banten: … t is largely a symbolic procedure. The practice is ceremonial, during which the clitoris of the baby or young girl is scraped or touched, often with the purpose of drawing several drops of blood. Sometimes a plant root is used symbolically and the girl is not touched at all.

These procedures usually take place within the first year, often on day 36 or 40 after birth, depending on local traditions…
(http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10102.htm)

Thus our Adat-or customary laws validate and vindicate our practices- even according to ultra-feminist USA.

Do not ever mistake Indonesian female circumcision for the savagery of the African.
We are nothing alike in any facet.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting)
Hugh Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 5:20 am
“my daughter was sunat- in Central Java this means a Imam cutting a bay leaf in a purely symbolic Hindu era ceremony. She has all of her equipment.” BRAVO! Would that ALL gential cutting could be replaced with such symbols. Type 1 is hardly “common”.

“The reality is malformations and clinical problems must be rectified via surgery.” Sometimes. When they occur. When they actually require rectification. When they can not be rectified without surgery. “Rectification” of intersexed people via surgery has proved to be worse than leaving them alone, in terms of their happiness as adults.

“Traditional birth attendantsâ€¦ cut a small piece of the prepuce (clitoral hood) or the clitoris itself until bleeding occurred. … the clitoris of the baby or young girl is scraped or touched, often with the purpose of drawing several drops of blood.”

Why cut? Why scrape? Why draw blood? What’s so “enlightened” about that?
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Why cut? Why scrape? Why draw blood? What’s so â€œenlightenedâ€ about that?

Symbolic, brother.

Why would Priests imitate Jesus and pass around bread saying it is his body and red wine his blood? What is so enlightened about it?
Hugh Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 10:39 am
The relevance of that escapes me, but it doesn’t matter because they’re NOT blood or flesh.
Riyoz Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 11:01 am
“In an Islamic book called the Sunna, the prophet Muhammad was approached about the issue. He responded that cutting should be minimal at most. Aside from that, the Koran does not preach or even mention FGM (Lightfoot-Klein 42).”

Hmmmm…this is quite clear isn’t it, it’s the people not the religion….maybe they just misunderstood or mix it up with their own traditional pre-Islamic cultures….

“FGM is often associated with Islam, and there are people who believe that Islam sanctions it. The fact that type I is also called the ‘Sunna’ procedure (meaning ‘following the Prophet’s tradition’) is often used as evidence for this contention. However, it is found among both Muslim and Christian populations, and is a cultural practice that predates both religions. Type 3, or ‘infibulation’, also known in Sudan and Ethiopia as the ‘pharaonic procedure’, was most likely practised in ancient Egypt.”

And apparently it’s quite prevalent in other cultures aswell…
Oigal Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Chuck..

â€¦.50 millions Christian killed by their own in WW 1&2
and more than 3 millions killed during France and Germany Christian Warâ€¦

Yep still very weak..Weren’t you the idiot using Hilter and Stalin as secular examples of evil ..oh well when you got no case make one up..Still if you want tell me christianity is bad no agruement from me anyway (although really sad examples, WW1 &2 were not religious wars). All religions breed on the ignorance of the masses. Point is most “christian” nations (admittedly with some hold outs and regressions) have moved on from where any two bit hawker with a gift of the gab can claim big daddy in the sky sez go kill in my name.

remember it happened even after 1900 years birthdays of Jesus while Islam until today has not yet reach 1500 years after Birth of Islam Prophet.â€

Well the moderates are certainly allowing the loonies and crazies make up for lost ground then hey..Don’t think a body count by religion is something mankind should be proud of.
Sylvester Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 6:57 am
If what is happening in Indo is just a symbol (no mutilation), then that is fine as part of the culture. The point is Indo needs to beware of Arabisation or extreme African practices brought by hardliner imams from Middle East. Indo was a nice place before the Wahabis clerics came.
Cukurungan Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Indo was a nice place before the Wahabis clerics came.

Indonesia was nice place before the Christian Dutch plundered, stole and mugger our beloved country.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Dear All,

If Janma’s a midwife — she’s got a lot of cred on this issue.

Not saying the guys don’t — they’re a part of the practice as well. It’s just that she’s like to know 1000 % more of the technicalities than any of the men present.

We should listen to her.
Janma Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Indonesia was nice place before the Christian Dutch plundered, stole and mugger our beloved country.

boy Cuk, you must be old if you remember that…..
Molisan Tono Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
This is interesting… smelly pussy… easy way to figure that out… get a SHOWER!!! hahaha and wash the pussy too… it’s not a cat, wash it won’t kill you…. silly comment.

Anyway… smelly pussy would be better than smelly heart.

Beside that… the earlier articles says something really tickle my ears too… purpose for woman to reduce sex drive and circumcision on man to increase their sex drive.
Now you all pervert (only the pervert) get a grip… have you ever heard man being raped by women? Yeah, it’s because of their sex drive are being increased.

Women are being issue here as victim. MUI and people allowing this are sick person.

If you don’t like it, don’t strecth it while you crave in it!!!!
Anne Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I was born in Moslem family too (now I’m not), and was freaked out when I found out about FGM. How it is done, and the causes that it could make. I was then calling my mom at home and ask her about this.

I don’t have any problem with sex drive, but I thought If I was circumcised I might actually be better than this (well).

But after asking my mom, even she noticed about the dangers, and she said…. because it was the tradition that must be done, so we were pretending to circumcise you. Okay, I was confused. Who made this silly tradition and even now it was legally said as religious tradition ? What is the advantage of the tradition beside following God’s word?

Would God tells us something that has many of dangerous causes and we don’t even know the advantage ?

I was so freak out about this, and it is stupid if any woman in this world will receive this as it is. It should be stopped.
Janma Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Then you must attend a sunatan massal festival at the kampung near you. I can assure you, it’s a once in a lifetime experience. Worth every ounce of the Visit Indonesia Year 2008 hype.

the kampung near me would sooner go to church on sunday than have a sunatan massal. I’ve been to one, in Malang. As long as it’s only boys and they want it done, then I’m not going to say anything. My son who is half javanese was trained from birth to never let his father try to make him do it. He did have a go, although rather half hearted, at getting my boy to do it….. he knew he was up against me and my daughter though….. and he was intimidated….. my son at 12 was half a head taller than his father, who is really short (like 165cm)… his father tried to tell him that the procedure would make him taller, we all looked at him somewhat blankly before collapsing into laughter. He never mentioned it again.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Janma,

Are you a midwife full time ? Interesting midwifing is making a comeback in the industrial west. I hear they offer post-grad training in midwifing in the ‘States. One US-trained midwife told me that Western hospitals sometimes treat childbirth like it was an illness…

Interesting.

Achmad.
Murphy Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 11:59 am

his father tried to tell him that the procedure would make him taller, we all looked at him somewhat blankly before collapsing into laughter. He never mentioned it again.

But it’s true, you know. Ask every mother in Indonesia and they will show you the “evidence” that circumcision does make you taller. Nevermind the fact that most boys were circumcised just few years before the start of puberty, time when their limbs inexplicably grow longer like bean sprouts.
Janma Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Are you a midwife full time ? Interesting midwifing is making a comeback in the industrial west. I hear they offer post-grad training in midwifing in the ‘States. One US-trained midwife told me that Western hospitals sometimes treat childbirth like it was an illnessâ€¦

Achmad, I am no longer a practicing midwife, I stopped practicing about 6 years ago. I was a home birth midwife and I mainly did births in Australia and India, I’ve only done about 20 births in Indonesia.
Yes, in place all over they treat birth like a disease…. now I work with Bumi Sehat in Ubud mainly natural birth education and breast feeding support.
Cukurungan Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
my son at 12 was half a head taller than his father, who is really short (like 165cm)â€¦ his father tried to tell him that the procedure would make him taller, we all looked at him somewhat blankly before collapsing into laughter.

It should be no laughing for your husband because if your husband did not get a circumcision his height could be only 150cm ..not bad ..right …to have addition height of 15 cm
Hugh Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
his father tried to tell him that the procedure would make him taller

Yes, there’s no end to the crazy reasons for cutting children’s genitals, boys’ and girls’. All the more reason to be suspicious of new ones - including those that claim to be “scientific”.
Michael Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Female Genital Mutilation??? What allot of bull shit this IS!!! AND HOW PRIMITIVE THAT IS!!! ive been married to an Islamic Indonesian woman for 8yrs!! She was genital mutated from when she was a baby!!! I was appalled when i first saw her!!! This absolute cruelty and sadistic!!! This cruelty and unnecessary!!! And the religious theory is just absolute bull shit as she had more orgasms then any western woman that i knew of!!!

So there goes the theory!!! The Islamic theory is like the Jewish theory with halal that is a watered down version of kosher??? This is so very questionable in this day and age!!! It’s ALL A MEANS???…of getting and brainwashing the believers or getting them to be fanatical to their faith!!!

Wake UP people and be WITH THE MODERN AGE AND TIMES!!! Were NOT living in the 000000 aqge or if it was Islam then its started in 610 AD which is way later then judaisum…all u f___k wits who follow these confrontational religions…HEY WAKE UP!!! It’s the PRESENT and We’re Here In 2008 and LOOKING FOR THE Beyond & NOT THE PAST!!! YOU HEAR ME??? WELL I DON’T THINK SO BECAUSE UR ALL IN THE SAND AND WITH ONLY ONE AGENDA!!! AND THAT IS TO BE MARTYIRS AND STUGES TO UR RELIGIONS!!! SO PRIMITIVE AND STUPID!!!

I’m sure our saviours would have wanted us to live in the present and the future and not be so backward like the Islamic and the Jewish religion is!!!

Amen Adonay in jewish or Salom Alehemw in the islamic faith or whatever!!!

The funny thing is that all these 3 religions have stemmed from the same roots….how hypocritical!!! And there the most poisonous and the worst religions on this planet!!! And the most confre4tetional!!….How ironic!!!
Murphy Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Wow.

I know Jamu Pasak Bumi works, but don’t take it more than the recommended dosage.

Now you see the side effects.
Michael Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Murphy u must be Irish!!! and what i say is what i feel murph!!! and ive been there and done that!!! with all this indonesian that really are following the islamic arabic bull shit!!! i cannot understand how such a beautiful nation and pople are so stupid to follow a religion that is so detremental to them!!! especially in that heat at ramadan???? huuuuummm???? and this modern day and age???
Lairedion Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Murphy u must be Irish!!!

Yep, Eddie Murphy is Irish too…
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Cukurungan said

Indonesia was nice place before the Christian Dutch plundered, stole and mugger our beloved country.

In psychiatric jargon they classify comments like this under ‘obsessive compulsive disorder’.

Janma

now I work with Bumi Sehat in Ubud mainly natural birth education and breast feeding support.

Is this the one in Nyuhkuning or is there more than one in the Ubud area?
Lairedion Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
dewaratugedeanom

Indonesia was nice place before the Christian Dutch plundered, stole and mugger our beloved country.

In psychiatric jargon they classify comments like this under ‘obsessive compulsive disorder’.

We can take it a step further by saying:

Muslim-majority islands and areas , which are now part of Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei, were nice places before Islam set foot ashore.
parvita Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 3:58 am
Then you must attend a sunatan massal festival at the kampung near you. I can assure you, it’s a once in a lifetime experience. Worth every ounce of the Visit Indonesia Year 2008 hype.

So cutting part of the body is ok for social gathering which only happens once in a life time. Twisted!

“Hey, I’m having a festive at my home. Yes, I’m mutilating my daughter. Come!”.
Cukurungan Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 8:00 am
In psychiatric jargon they classify comments like this under ‘obsessive compulsive disorder’.

Dear Bli Dewa,

Why after you convert to Muslim still become an un-justice person like a Jews…Ok.. you may hate me so much but for a Muslim your hate to other person shall not justify you to act un-justice onto them.

My post is no more and no less just a matching post of Mr Sylvester Posting as below:

Indo was a nice place before the Wahabis clerics came.

Regards,
Your New Brother
Murphy Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 9:34 am
@parvita

Ah, you are not living in Indonesia then? Sunatan masal is for boys, Maam. Girls’ occasions were done in a more private environment.

I’m against the African and Middle Eastern version, don’t get me wrong. That’s simply barbaric. But if you are pooh-poohing the Indonesians, you’re barking at the wrong tree. No harm was done to the girls (yes, I’ve checked myself). They are much smarter than the 3As (Africans, Arabs and Alarmist NGOs) combined.
janma Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 9:38 am
dewa, yes it is the one in nyuh kuning. Yayasan Bumi Sehat.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Cukurungan

Ok.. you may hate me so much but for a Muslim your hate to other person shall not justify you to act un-justice onto them.

Don’t overestimate yourself. I don’t hate you at all, only some of your posts. But, insyallah, someday you will grow up and come to your senses.
Purba Negoro Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Micheal you Sir, are a total philistine and a f*cking retard.
Learn to read before opening your fool mouth and confirming our view almost all whites are full of their own p*ss and wind.

“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance.”
Hippocrates

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
Mark Twain

wong kasar cuma ngerti kasaran.- the point being though it is usually beneath me- for you I’ll gladly meet you in the flesh and beat some fricking sense into you.

According to a US governmental report on Female Genital Mutilation in Indonesia:
97/100 Kemayoran mothers had their girls. Trained midwives or physicians circumcised the baby girls using a blood lancet or sewing needle to prick the clitoris until bleeding occurred. However, some midwives merely wiped the clitoris with alcohol and bethadine. This procedure took place when the girl was 40 days to five years old.

IN West Java 100/100 claimed their female children had been circumcised. Traditional birth attendantsâ€¦ cut a small piece of the prepuce (clitoral hood) or the clitoris itself until bleeding occurred. This procedure was performed when the baby was about 40 days old.

In Banten: â€¦ t is largely a symbolic procedure. The practice is ceremonial, during which the clitoris of the baby or young girl is scraped or touched, often with the purpose of drawing several drops of blood. Sometimes a plant root is used symbolically and the girl is not touched at all.

Do not ever mistake Indonesian female circumcision for the savagery of the African.
We are nothing alike in any facet.

What don’t you understand retard- it’s documented fact that FGM Pharaonic excision is COMPLETELY UNDOCUMENTED IN INDONESIA-

If you don’t understand plain, basic fact- make an appointment and I’ll persuade you by cruder means.

Do not ever insult an Indonesian by ever implying similarity with the savages of Africa.

There are many Javanese like me who would joyously gut an ignorant white like the sewer-eel they are for Pribumi honour.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Purba,

Charming:

almost all whites are full of their own p*ss and wind.

savages of Africa.

There are many Javanese like me who would joyously gut an ignorant white like the sewer-eel they are for Pribumi honour.

Did someone re-circumcize you by accident ? What’s got your knickers in a twist today ?
Michael Says:
March 23rd, 2008 at 7:15 am
@Purba Negoro

Micheal you Sir, are a total philistine and a f*cking retard

Purba Negoro your the retard my friend and if you want to meet me in the flesh then ‘any time and any day’ I’m coming to Jakarta in June so I’ll gladly accommodate your request you fool!!!

My wife was circumcised in a similar manner as in Africa and I didn’t say method you fool! Her clitoris is completely cut off! This is just so unnecessary and unbelievable in this day and age! And all your quotes are just taken off the web your no genius my friend!!! Yes I’ve been circumcised but with you they have gone a step further and done it to your brain Purba Negoro!!! Hehehaha…just calm down and read my post carefully and also learn how to spell my name its not ‘Micheal’ it M_I_C_H_A_E_L!!! U FOOL!!!
Michael Says:
March 24th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Do not ever insult an Indonesian by ever implying similarity with the savages of Africa

@ Purba Negoro
An addendum to the above post and also to your brainless comments and that is….but Indonesians do practice what and the exact style of circumcision as they do in Africa!!! My wife is from central java and she was butchered the same way!!! May be not in the crude methods that they do it in Africa but never the less she was mutilated and butchered in the same way but who knows!!! So don’t get on this forum and give us all this bull shit about… According to a US governmental report on Female Genital Mutilation in Indonesia: 97/100 Kemayoran…and… IN West Java 100/100 claimed their female children had been circumcised….and… In Banten: â€¦ it is largely a symbolic procedure. The practice is ceremonial, during which the clitoris of the baby…etc etc…

It’s ALL BARBARICK AND UNNECCESARY!!! I WAS CERCUMSICED AND I DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE!!! ISNT THAT CRUEL AS IT IS!!! And I’m not a Muslim or a Jew I’m a Christian….and to this day I object and I am really outraged for this sort of mutilation happening to me and to my wife!!! But as far as doing this to women for a religious purpose that is so primitive and so outrageous is just beyond me and beyond today’s mental thinking and common sense!!!

But religion is just that â€œA Very Crude and Out Dated Means Of…physically, emotionally and emphatically suck the venerable to a means of belonging to a group a sect a lifestyle a fanatical culture and believing in something that can and will be their lives….look at what happened to Germany under the Nazis & Hitler…look at what happened to the Communists and what happened under Stalin and I can go on forever with past examples in History…the best life for those who believe in their own abilities and the people that believe ‘IN THEM SELFS TO DO RIGHT TO THEIR FELLOW HUMANS IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGION, CREED OR SOCIAL STRUCTURES OR LEVELS!!! RELIGION IS THE BIGGEST POISION THAT EVA WAS BESTORED UPONUS!!!’
parvita Says:
April 1st, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Why don’t we just make a demonstration on “Stop Genital Mutilation”? Big posters, pictures, etc. Including circumcision for men? I bet those FPI guys will throw stones to the participants
John Says:
April 1st, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Riyoz has a point. Why are so many innocent men, women and children being butchered by their fellow Muslims all around the Muslim world. What is it about this religion that generates so much hatred and bigotry? Why is it that this religion is used to justify the rape and murder of female family members for perceived matters of honour, the marrying of little girls to illiterate elderly relatives, etc? Most religions have a barbaric past but most have become civilised and reflect a modern tolerant, educated and liberated society. What is holding Islam back?

On the specific subject of female genital mutilation, if God designed females why did she include an organ that needed to be mutilated? Did she change her mind when the job was done? Has God got a mutilated vagina? If so, who did the mutilating? I think we deserve to know.
John Says:
April 1st, 2008 at 5:54 pm
I have just read the posting of Purba Negoro. I don’t know what has prompted her to write with so much anger. Maybe she has just had her vagina mutilated.

The thrust of her argument is that in her country little girls are mutilated to only a little degree. So that’s alright then. We can all relax now.
Purba Negoro Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Michael-
Time and place you lying piece of ignorant white trash.

I live in Jakarta- anywhere is convenient. Let me know your blood type.
shorty Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
there is some evidence that male circumcision can reduce the incidence and spread of std’s. if the owner of the penis is following the qran/bible then it’s immaterial - he was a virgin before he married, and faithful afterwards.

female circumcision has no health/medical benefits - quite the opposite.

let me ask those who support female circumcision….

if someone cut off or mutilated any part of your wife’s/daughter’s/girfriend’s body apart from her clitoris, what would you do?
rima Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 1:29 am
I know for a fact that while most Indonesian women are circumsized (sometimes without the consent of their parents, as I am a victim of such) not as badly as our african sisters, it is enough damage for her not to be able to enjoy sex in her adult life.
It has to stop, because a. we are not savages and b. the savages are not africans but the arabs who brought the whole female circumcision culture to indonesia in the first place by way of their religion.
Purba Negoro Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 1:43 am
Shorty- I appreciate your argument.
The form of circumcision in Indonesia is termed- clitorodectomy- or better hoodectomy= the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood.

It should NOT be confused with clitorodectomy- which is excision- removal- of the clitoris.

Hoodectomy: a very widespread and common day-procedure in the West.
It is usually performed for women with sexual dysfunction.
Commonly performed during a labiaplasty

This procedure allows the clitoris more movement and more sensation.
“Finally, Clitoral Unhooding (Hoodectomy), offers women new heightened sensation, arousal and increased personal satisfaction in their sex lives.”: - “with an 87.5% increase improvement sexual response from all patients.”

http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/

-wikipedia: ” labaiplasty”

Summarily- there is a very convincing case for male and female hood or foreskin removal.
Maybe you should research how the Basra-based British troops are now getting themslves a new “American dick” for their wives back home- ie circumcised.
Europeans- especially French, Germans and Dutch have a cultural fear of circumcision- most probably due to the practice related to Judaism.
Truth- Europeans are scared little girly men afraid of a little cut.
Hugh Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 4:11 am
Shorty said “there is some evidence that male circumcision can reduce the incidence and spread of std’s.” The latest study, following 500 boys born in New Zealand, found that it does not. There have been many, many health claims about male genital cutting, and some about female genital cutting - not so many, but only because people weren’t looking so hard. They are all just excuses to justify the operations. You can reduce the incidence of ANY disease by cutting off the part where that disease may lurk, but where would it end?

There’s no point in blaming Muslims or anyone else for genital cutting. People of all religions and none do it, always for bad reasons. It has to stop.
shorty Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
purba negoro..i have no problem with a consenting adult undergoing remedial or informed elective sexual surgery.

what i have a problem with is the surgical interference (be it symbolic or radical) with a young girl’s genitals for no medical reason.

‘hoodectomy’ is not a common practice in the west. lack of sexual satisfaction is usually caused by poor technique and male indifference to his partners pleasure..wham bang thank u mam…ring a bell?

re male circumcision and basra - probably more to do with the heat and the discomfort of sand under the foreskin - they’ll be sorry - the next conflict will be in tibet.

we can drag out all the statistics/clinical studies/surveys we want to support circumcision.

it’s being performed for socio/religious, not medical reasons.
rima Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Purba Negoro,
female circumcision equals better sex sensation ? are you friggin kidding me? It’s torture, that’s what it is. you are obviously not a woman, if you were, maybe not one with her clit cut off.
you dont know what you’re talking about. several of my friends and i are unable to feel much sensation at all during sex. it’s like we are solely a machine for a man’s enjoyment, while we should and could not enjoy it, because of the bloody circumcision. and for what? to limit promiscuity? most of the girls i know who are in the same boat as i am (including myself) were promiscuous when younger. why? we were curious about what this ‘heavenly orgasmic’ sexperience was all about. but still, nothing. nada. zilch.
if it were up to me, nobody should even come near a baby’s clitoris let alone cut it. people who still practice it are savages, no matter what country they are from.
Shloka Says:
April 26th, 2008 at 12:56 am
I am an Indian practising Hindu girl. Hindu women in India and Nepal, two places with majority Hindu populations are not circumcised.Nothing, repeat nothing is done on their genitals, nor was anything ever done in Hinduism’s 5000 year history.Nor are Hindu girls circumcised in Mauritius or Trinidad. Islam likes to blame all its Misogyny on others.
Shloka Says:
April 27th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I would also like to add that, Female circumcision also happens in tiny pockets of India. Guess who do it? The Muslim Bohras.Islam took the veil from Persia and carried it all over the globe. Likewise, it took circumcision from Egypt(probably) and it happens in parts of Lebanon, Jordan, Iran and Iraq.
Rob Says:
April 27th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Is there a sustainable medical argument to justify the need for female circumcision? If there is then let’s hear that!

What has been written here is that there are religious reasons for it! If I am not mistaken female circumcision is not specifically mentioned in the Qur’an is it? So, what is the religious justification? Isn’t the practice more cultural than religious?
janma Says:
April 28th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Is there a sustainable medical argument to justify the need for female circumcision? If there is then let’s hear that!

sounds like chopping your head off to cure a headache.
Hugh Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 5:10 am
In the US, there is a special shaped tray with velcro straps to hold the (boy) baby down. Are these used for girls anywhere in Indonesia?
Purba Negoro Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Hugh- no- it is done at birth for females, 8 for males- however for my son- I specified he was circumcised at birth- because I felt the prevailing tradition was stupid.

Hugh who on earth are you to say someone elses’ cultural or religious practices should be stopped.

Are whites the self-appointed Grand Arbiters of Taste, Morality and Commonsense now are they?

For the Javanese I know- their daughters are merely pricked or scraped- in some instances where the genital is poorly formed- it is rectified via surgery by a qualified gynaecologist.

The pain of male circumcision lasts maybe one or two days maximum- mine was done in hospital by a urologist- no straps or anaethestic.

There is no evidence whatsoever that can demonstrate any widespread practice of removal of clitoris in Java.

Hearsay and anecdotes to the contrary are exceptionally rare exceptions to the rule- please see my above posts to substantiate this and you can also try wikipedia:

Please check the facts yourself rather than heed the hot air of the blustering bules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

Labiaplasty is common- my brother is an ob-gyn at RS Cipto Mangkusumo- he did his residency in Michigan and worked 10 years in the US.
Dr Adler, a very prominent cosmetic surgeon states he undertakes hundreds per year- not reflected in the statistics due to privacy concerns.

It is mainly the British who have condescended and derided the labiaplasty procedure as yet another of the Colonial Americans fads.
But British and their dreadful teeth avoid mention in the Guardian and other such middle-class wank-pages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labiaplasty

Clitoral removal is a peasant practice, most likely undertaken by either some semi-literate village Imam or Ullama.

Who knows what the provincials do to each other- Irian for example is still known to have practicing cannibals and eaten Michael Rockerfeller.

Whatever the peasants do in their god foresaken mud-huts it can hardly be representative of “Islamic” or to hack at each other with bits of bamboo.

Clitoris removal was a common Western practice until the 1950’s for preventing girls from masturbating- but because whites did it- but somehow it’s acceptable and not worth mentioning in the debate?

Qoud era demonstratum ad oculus (adversus solem ne loquitor):

White commentators are condescendingly moral-superioristas yet remain blustering armchair activists and emotive hypocritical ignorami relying on their oft used “wisdom of repugnance” as argument.

Ex vera factae esse quam videri.
Personae Caucasii condemnant quod non intellegunt: reductio ad absurdum in vulgare extremis. Foci argumentum ad ignorantiam et populum vulgare est.

Cura te Ipsum. Haud ignota loquor. Dixi.
Hugh Says:
May 2nd, 2008 at 4:39 am
Purba Negoro’s message (like his/her earlier ones) pretty much refutes itself. (I don’t know what colour s/he is, nor s/he what colour I am, so what have “whites” got to do with anything? And I have to smile at someone who quotes extensively in [misspelt] Latin, while flailing around about “colonials”.)

To answer his/her question, “Hugh who on earth are you to say someone elses’ cultural or religious practices should be stopped[?]” I am a human being, like the babies and children who are held down or strapped down to have their genitals interfered with. The cultural and religious practices of their parents have to take second place to their human rights, as we (I hope) universally agree when considering cultural and religious practices that lead to the death of children. I argue that possession of the genitals you were born with is a human right, like the number of your fingers and toes and earlobes. Or does PN think parents should be allowed to change those too, if their culture or religion decrees it?

And if “it is done at birth for females” then it would certainly be practical to use the kind of tray I describe. Does anyone know the answer to my question?
Janma Says:
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Are whites the self-appointed Grand Arbiters of Taste, Morality and Commonsense now are they?

No, actually the muslims are now the grand arbiters of morality…. so that just leaves us whites with taste and commonsense….
John Green Says:
May 4th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Purba Negoro

You are wrong about female genital mutilation in Europe. Here it is illegal and punishable by imprisonment. The only occasion it occurs in my country is in the Muslim communities where it is still quite common, despite attempts by the authorities to stamp it out. The problem is magnified because many of these communities exist in ghettos where few of the family members speak English. This barbaric practice is, of course, supported by Muslim religious leaders, along with other undesirable practices such as honour killing, forced marriage, marriage to first cousins and restrictive dress codes fo