Regional Arms Race

February 29th, 2008, in News, by Patung

Australia’s regional hegemonic aspirations and Indonesian defence procurements.

Australia

Rahmad Nasution, the Canberra Bureau Chief of Antara, writes that Australia has ambitions to attain regional military supremacy, most clearly evidenced in its efforts to persuade the United States to sell its most technologically advanced plane, the F-22 Raptor, which currently by law the US keeps all to itself.

Rahmad says the new Australian government’s keenness to purchase the Raptor, as well as its plans to renew its naval fleet, is proof that it anticipates a regional arms race, with Indonesia, as well as China and India. [1]

Poor Man’s Army

Defence minister Juwono Sudarsono however says Indonesia’s spending on defence, at $4 billion per year, is extremely small in comparison to neighbouring countries. The tiny island state of Singapore spends ten times as much annually, he says.

Juwono Sudarsono.

Because of this any suggestion that Indonesia was engaged, or sought to be engaged, in a regional arms race, for example with Australia, was absurd, he said. [1]

Arms Acquisitions - America

Frida Berrigan of “Foreign Policy In Focus” however says that of late: [3]

Jakarta wants weapons. Lots of them.

Recently the Indonesian air force have sought to purchase Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters (six units at $30 million each) and C-130 Hercules tactical transport planes from the United States, she says.

The United States normalised military relations with Indonesia in 2005, and is no longer concerned about how the weapons it sells may be used, such as against civilian populations in Papua or elsewhere, she says, and the

floodgates have opened.

Juwono Sudarsono seems to agree:

the climate in the US Congress [regarding selling arms to Indonesia] has improved.

He says the United States also offered $16 million in military aid. [4]

Mutammimul Ula

A politician from the Islamist Justice Party (Partai Keadilan Sejahtera (PKS)), Mutammimul Ula, warns that Indonesia should beware of buying arms from the United States, considering it wasn’t long ago that the ten-year arms embargo was still in place. [5]

Arms Acquisitions - Russia

Mutammimul Ula also complains that the F-16’s are comparatively old technology, from the early 1990’s, while Juwono Sudarsono explains that the F-16’s are needed given the supply bottlenecks in Russia with the more state of the art Sukhoi plane, which, after Russian president Vladimir Putin’s visit to Jakarta in September 2007, Indonesia contracted to buy more of.

During Putin’s visit Moscow provided $1 billion in loans for weapons and later in December Indonesia bought Russian medium and short-range missiles, aerial bombs, and other weapons systems, these purchases coming on top of a $192 million spending spree (paid for with palm oil) in 2003 on the Sukhoi and other armaments.

Sukhoi
Sukhoi.

Frida Berrigan says Indonesia is also now hoping for more from its new Russian best friend forever, including six submarines, air defence systems, helicopters, boats, and other systems that could add up to about $3 billion, and this has Washington worried about losing market share and influence.

Tags: Australia, Bombs, China, Defence, Foreign Relations, Indonesian Air Force, Islands, Justice Party, Juwono Sudarsono, Military, Naval Fleet, Palm Oil, Papua, Partai Keadilan Sejahtera, PKS, Singapore

48 Comments on “Regional Arms Race”

Sylvester Says:
February 29th, 2008 at 8:59 am
It is almost impossible for a country such as Australia with only 20 millions population to gain a regional (Australasia) hegemony. Many Australians see that they can rely on the ANZUS Treaty and see no threat from the neighbours, although some stupids may still think that Indonesia would invade them sooner or later.

China is the one who has a good chance. It has 3 million strong troops and 400 nuclear warheards. Although the majority of the equipment is obsolete, a roughly quarter of it is modern and approaching the Western standard. The airforce has around 300 Sukhois and 100 J-10s (comparable to the latest version of F-16), also a few strategic bombers. The navy is one of the strongest is Asia, second to Japan’s. Last year, one Chinese Song class submarine sneaked to the US Pacific Fleet, only 5 miles from USS Kitty Hawk. The army is the strongest in Asia. Hundreds of tank (T-96s, ZTZ-99s) and IFV are quite state of the art. Chinese missile technology is comparable to Russian’s, only second to the US. China has thousands of ballistic missiles, mainly directed to Taiwan, US and Japan.

Indonesia desperately needs new weapon systems. The armed force was one of the strongest in Asia during 1960’s but today is just horrible. Buying from Russian is a good strategy. Maybe try also get from Chinese or other European contries. The armed force is always a deterrent factor in any international relationship. More Russian bombers are flying and missiles aimed to Western Europe because of the US plan to put Patriots in Polandia. China has 1000 missiles aiming Taiwan. Recently, China refused to allow the US fleet to enter HK to protest the Dalai Lama’s visit to the US. Indonesia should modernize its armed forced if it want better respect in the international forums.
Andrew Says:
February 29th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Prioritize. Indonesia should spend the money to fix what’s more important.
In the meantime, Indonesia should watch its steps, and not step on anyone’s toe LOL
TheWrathOfGrapes Says:
February 29th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Defence minister Juwono Sudarsono however says Indonesia’s spending on defence, at $4 billion per year, is extremely small in comparison to neighbouring countries. The tiny island state of Singapore spends ten times as much annually, he says.

What is this guy smoking? Ten times as much - he meant US$40bn per year? Or is that in Rupiahs?
Odinius Says:
March 1st, 2008 at 12:18 am
Indonesia has the worst quality military in the region, aside from Cambodia and Laos. This is largely because only 20% of average earnings among TNI officers come from salaries. So where are the soldiers getting that 80% from? Private security work for multinational companies and also any number of private enterprises. Before Indonesia can think about competing with rational states like Australia and Singapore, it needs to sort out TNI’s use of time and resources, first by paying them more and then by limiting their ability to set up business ventures.
dragonwall Says:
March 1st, 2008 at 7:42 am
What is this guy smoking? Ten times as much - he meant US$40bn per year? Or is that in Rupiahs?

That was why I made a posting and someone apparently had my comments smoked out. For what ever reason I suppose he should know best.

I said something the effect that Indonesia can go ahead to spend 1-200 billion and forget to feed the poor. I think someone don’t quite like it this way, or perhaps he might have other thoughts.
sputjam Says:
March 1st, 2008 at 9:15 pm
If you buy latest american defence product, it come with a source code, which means you will require permission from washington before using the product.
hence malaysia bought only eight F18’s and refused to buy more when offered the latest version from boeing.
On the other hand, no such handicap exist if you buy arms from russia. hence Malaysia have one squadron of MIG29 and another sukhoi Su27’s.

Singapore, i believe, contributed some funds for the development of the F22’s.

Indonesia’s main priority is to maintain its nationhood from breaking up. there are no other threats externally that warrants attention.

Australia’s interest in F22’s could be due to its vertical take-of-landing(VTOL). which means if there is trouble brewing in small island nations within its backyards, the F22’s can be easily deployed without the need of a runway.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 1st, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Do we really need those things? We can easily swamp any country with refugees and makes them minority in their own country.
Sylvester Says:
March 2nd, 2008 at 5:43 am
Australia’s interest in F22’s could be due to its vertical take-of-landing(VTOL). which means if there is trouble brewing in small island nations within its backyards, the F22’s can be easily deployed without the need of a runway.

Nope, F22 is not VTOL type. You may talk about F35 JSF which posses VTOL ability

Do we really need those things? We can easily swamp any country with refugees and makes them minority in their own country.

LOL, how? By boats? They will sink before reaching any place due to overload!
Daniel Says:
March 2nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Can you imagine a world where all military spending was redirected in the form of AID for education, AIDS elimination, housing, clean drinking water. We would have a world without poverty in less than a decade.

The whole world has gone blind.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 2nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
LOL, how? By boats? They will sink before reaching any place due to overload!

I don’t know why I am answering this. If the Vietnamese refugees can sail all the way down to Indonesia and beyond, ask yourself what vessels they are using. How dumb!
TheWrathOfGrapes Says:
March 2nd, 2008 at 11:05 pm
If you buy latest american defence product, it come with a source code, which means you will require permission from washington before using the product.
hence malaysia bought only eight F18’s and refused to buy more when offered the latest version from boeing.

That’s part of the reason. The main reason is that the Russians allowed Mahathir to barter trade using palm oil…
Teng Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:10 am
The armed force was one of the strongest in Asia during 1960’s but today is just horrible

Are you sure? I remember reading once that the Indonesian armed forces always has been rather “weak” because in the sixties (early) the Navy and Airforce supported Soekarno, and because of that after the kudeta Soeharto kept those two part of the armed forces “small” compared to the army (groundforces).

I can understand Indonesia wants to increase their military force, almost all countries want to do that, however I can’t help but thinking that money could be spend more wisely.. like education
Sylvester Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:03 am
Yup agree guys,
Education and health are very important too. It would be ideal if the arms are not needed, everybody live in peace.

Aluang, you were saying of sending millions of Indo to make others minority. How many boats that Indo have? They must be overload. The Vietnamese refugees were small (not possible to make themselves majority). Use your brain. Your hardly controlled emotions made you looked dumb and dumber, LOL
Janma Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 9:54 am
There has got to come a day when they put all the guns down and work out another way…. you’d think so hey? Evolution comes slowly.
sputjam Says:
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:44 am
Do we really need those things? We can easily swamp any country with refugees and makes them minority in their own country

Which is australia’s main worry. Therefore Indonesia is considered vital in australia’s stability. But just a footnote below-

It took the dutch probably several thousand soldiers to control tens of millions of indonesian. It took maybe 10 million chinese, who landed on indonesian shore to escape hardship in the 1800-1900’s to control economy of 200 million. What good will swarming ausralia with refugees going to do when most will end up as beach bums.

Nope, F22 is not VTOL type. You may talk about F35 JSF which posses VTOL ability

In that case, the only reason why australia could be eying the planes is because singapore wants them too. Whites cannot be seen to be left behind asians.
Sylvester Says:
March 4th, 2008 at 4:04 am
In that case, the only reason why australia could be eying the planes is because singapore wants them too. Whites cannot be seen to be left behind asians.

Agree, Sputjam.
Whites always want to be superior. US always worry about Chinese military development. In case of Australia, I wonder about the future since most of the young whites are just prefer to lay back on the beaches or have party than work hard.
Purba Negoro Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
None of you have any concept of Indonesian military today. One assumes this is because most commentators here are fat whites- be they lower-middle-class native-land failures married to a village peasant-woman 20 years their junior or the atypical blabbering lick-spittle Chinamen seeking to impress all and sundry with boastful tales to insinuate themselves into the good graces of their beloved Whites Master’ .
We, the Javanese control the economy, not the Chinaman- here is merely our wayang in our masterful display of dhalang-ship.
All worth owning belongs to the military and the royalty/bangsawan asli negoro.
Soon you will see our total destruction of the Salim group- read up on PSKP and BLBI. Hadingrat Hamengkubuwana has resumed the Jogja keraton in displaying the Mataram battle standard.

Suharto returned our ancestral lands and rightful property top us- including that of our abdi dalem (lowly lickspittle court-servant) Chinamen.
Indonesia simply cannot be invaded. We have the knowledge and manufacturing facilities to produce all our own small-arms, ammunition and artillery, advanced anti-tank rockets, clothing, medical goods, etc. All of which are controlled by the military.
Basel and Bofors assisted commissioning our steel-works and shipyards.
We can and do build combat helicopters.
All purchased equipment is easily and readily reverse engineered.
We already have stockpiles of chemical and nuero-chemicals.
We simply do not produce as it is more cost-effective in a macro-economic scenario to source externally
You all forget that Kopassus, with over 17000 currently serving acknowledged servicemen is greater in size than the combatant sector of ADF- including their reasonable SAS.
How many more do you think are kept hidden from the Wests’ ceaseless prying?
Indonesia learnt well from our Kempetei friends- our Javanese society is a total paramilitary- consider Brimob, Delta 88, Kostrad, Marinir, etc.
Suharto engineered the share-holding of most other ASEAN nations’ strategic resources. We own most of Temasek holdings and Malaysia’s palm oil- London Sumatera Plantations is owned by Tommy. The Gurkhas in Brunei can be merely swatted like a pest mosquito- what will Nancy Britain do in retaliation? More Nanny State PC-Bluster and Human Rights mincings?

Why else do you think Lee Kwan Yu and Mahatir came grovelling to the royal tomb of Suharto?
We have already issued a warning to Malaysia- “take one more island- and it is total war- we have 4 million patriotic volunteers to destroy you and Singapore entirely”.

Ganyang Melayu! is still very fresh in our Javanese conscience and Temasek/Singapura is former Majapahit vassalage, as was Kambodia, as was Myanmar, as was Lanna Thai. We have historical claim to these former vassal territories as well as Northern Australia- as per archeological evidence.
ASEAN is Mataram Baru.

Suharto was not an idiot- he remained in power for 32 years before Lengser- do not think for one moment we Javanese and our bangwasan birthright manifest Majaphit destiny will not be allowed to be undone by the petty whims of Imperialistas.

Pribumisasi Indonesia! Merdeka! Merdeka! Merdeka!
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 12:11 am
Well said Purba Negoro.

Hope you are a Kejawen Muslim like all our hero forefathers and all our intelligent people.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 7th, 2008 at 12:23 am
@ Sylvester

Aluang, you were saying of sending millions of Indo to make others minority. How many boats that Indo have? They must be overload. The Vietnamese refugees were small (not possible to make themselves majority). Use your brain. Your hardly controlled emotions made you looked dumb and dumber, LOL

Sylvester, your kind clearly had no match for Javanese intelligence. This time, I would not dignify your inane comment with a response.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
sputjam said

What good will swarming australia with refugees going to do when most will end up as beach bums.

Maybe we’ll get rid of fat sheilas chasing Kuta cowboys on our beaches.
sputjam Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Purba negoro in his dreams said-

Ganyang Melayu! is still very fresh in our Javanese conscience and Temasek/Singapura is former Majapahit vassalage, as was Kambodia, as was Myanmar, as was Lanna Thai. We have historical claim to these former vassal territories as well as Northern Australia- as per archeological evidence.
ASEAN is Mataram Baru.

The accounts of majapahit rule was obtained from only one source - written by a man called prapanca, supposedly a court historian written in his poems. In it, the majapahit was assumed to include north australia, malaya, papua and sumatra, but nothing more. Definitely not as far as Myanmar or the kingdom of siam. whether the account of this one man is genuine, we do not know as the so called empire of majapahit did not leave a trail of its existance except on the island of java.

In any case, myanmar and siam and the old malay kingdom of kampuchea, known as Champa, regularly clash using elephant cavalries to charge into opposing armies. what chance have the armies of majapahit has against such tactics. Until today, every historian knows that thailand was never colonised by anyone.
naga Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
“..Whites always want to be superior. US always worry about Chinese military development. In case of Australia, I wonder about the future since most of the young whites are just prefer to lay back on the beaches or have party than work hard..”

thats because whites ARE superior; they value hard work, honesty and discipline; something sorely mssing in Indonesia, hence most of you are poor, uneducated, ignorant and unemployed with no future…

“..Suharto returned our ancestral lands and rightful property top us- including that of our abdi dalem (lowly lickspittle court-servant) Chinamen.
Indonesia simply cannot be invaded. We have the knowledge and manufacturing facilities to produce all our own small-arms, ammunition and artillery, advanced anti-tank rockets, clothing, medical goods, etc. All of which are controlled by the military…”

Yes, the and pribumi are now in the midst of destroying their beloved country and society, something the Chinese spent time building up…Indonesia’s next revolution will make ‘98 look like a picnic

“..You all forget that Kopassus, with over 17000 currently serving acknowledged servicemen is greater in size than the combatant sector of ADF- including their reasonable SAS…”

You forget that Kopassus has never fought a real war and when they confronted the SAS during “konfrontasi’ and in East Timor, they got their arse kicked soundly; thats because there’s a big difference between fighting professional soldiers and unarmed civilians. The only thing Kopassus is good at is murdering civilians, raping women and preying on the weak in typical cowardly Indonesian style…

Indonesia will forever be weak and out of control, whilst Australia will continue to prosper; the ADF is only upgrading; the difference is they know how to use their weapons systems, whereas the Indos don’t.

The TNI and govt are only interested in buying more weapons, becuase it means they can make more $$ on the price upgrades they will insist on; more weapons means more $$$ for crooked generals and politicians…enjoy your next bowl of rice Indonesia….
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
@ naga the White Butt Licker,

thats because whites ARE superior; they value hard work, honesty and discipline; something sorely mssing in Indonesia, hence most of you are poor, uneducated, ignorant and unemployed with no future”¦

China in her glorious days did not attempt to dominate another foreign lands. She sent envoys and made friends. Mojopahit in her heydays did not seek to subdue another race. We shared ideas. Same can be said for the Indians.

Whites pillaged and raped when they were in power. Hardwork my foot. Honesty is dubious. What is so great with killing and robbing lands of the less fortunates, then imposing ‘white’ law on others. Discipline maybe.

Yes, the and pribumi are now in the midst of destroying their beloved country and society, something the Chinese spent time building up”¦Indonesia’s next revolution will make ‘98 look like a picnic

Build what up? You should be thankful to us for giving you this opportunity and welcoming you to our land.

You forget that Kopassus has never fought a real war and when they confronted the SAS during “konfrontasi’ and in East Timor, they got their arse kicked soundly; thats because there’s a big difference between fighting professional soldiers and unarmed civilians….

Provide links .. otherwise it is just fart.

Indonesia will forever be weak and out of control, whilst Australia will continue to prosper; the ADF is only upgrading; the difference is they know how to use their weapons systems, whereas the Indos don’t.

Like the accident-prone Austeyr?

Phew …
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 9:31 am
@Purba Negoro

None of you have any concept of Indonesian military today. One assumes this is because most commentators here are fat whites- be they lower-middle-class native-land failures married to a village peasant-woman 20 years their junior”¦

How do you know? Have you met any of them?
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
naga said

The only thing Kopassus is good at is murdering civilians, raping women and preying on the weak in typical cowardly Indonesian style”¦

while posing for the cameras drinking blood from a decapitated snake to show off how macho they are. I once saw a picture published on the Bali Post front page.
Sok jagoan.
Purba Negoro Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 12:39 am
Naga- like all lower-middle class Bule you are full of excreta.

No regular soldiers were involved in either Konfrontasi or East Timor.
From wikipedia:

On January 20, 1963, Foreign Minister Subandrio announced Konfrontasi with Malaysia. On April 12, Indonesian volunteers””allegedly Indonesian Army personnel“” started operations.
On August 16, troops of the Brigade of Gurkhas clashed with fifty Indonesian guerrillas.

On 28 September 1963, a small, successful (though strategically irrelevant) raid was conducted by the Indonesians on the village of Long Jawe, almost wiping out the entire Gurkha Rifles garrison.
In early 1964, Indonesian attacks managed to render the strategic Tebedu-Serian-Kuching road unsafe for months, and additional small scale air raids were launched in the Kelabit Highlands on civilian settlements.

This all caused by IRREGULARS.

If you read your history books- you will see that the US and Javanese generals had cleverly detained all assault troops in Java- because most agreed Sukarno’s Konfrontasi was an unnecessary and nonstrategic ego projection. Irian was far more important.
Suharto too was well known for being oppositional to Konfrontasi.

Regarding East Timor- Indonesia had to pull out two brigades of troops before Australians could land. This was negotiated by Clinton and Cohen. Howard was terrified Australia would be deoimated especially since the US was highly disinterested in this useless aggravation of a long-term ally.

The killing in Timor was undertaken by paramilitaries only.
From Amnesty International:
Halilintar, Tim Alfa, Makikit, Tim Saka, Sakuna, Railakan, Ainaro, Tim Suai; Sakunar Team; Morok Manatuto Team in Manututo and Liquisa Team. These units wear military uniforms and are armed allegedly from ABRI .
How are we to believe this poorly substantiated slander? It could be Chinese gun-runners or even corrupt East Timorese Army personnel.

Naga: perhaps you may objectively cross-evaluate national progress and development when your had also been raped and pillaged for over 300 years by the same apartheid-loving Colonials of South Africa.

Do not forget we expelled the Japanese, Dutch and the British with obsolete weapons and bamboo spears.
Imagine what can be accomplished with 17000 crack troops who have been trained by US green Berets, British and Australian SAS and German GSG9, equipped with the very latest Russian equipment and I sincerely hope Australia will test our mettle in Irian.

But I suppose, you have shown yourself to be a bigoted blustering ignoramus, like many Aussies.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 9:23 am
On 28 September 1963, a small, successful (though strategically irrelevant) raid was conducted by the Indonesians on the village of Long Jawe, almost wiping out the entire Gurkha Rifles garrison

Naga is another dumb Ozzie, no wonder.

The Gurkha is considered the best trained soldier. We can easily wipe them off. Reminded of the Mongolian army where others doomed, our Javanese warriors defeated them.
pj_bali Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Imagine what can be accomplished with 17000 crack troops who have been trained by US green Berets, British and Australian SAS and German GSG9, equipped with the very latest Russian equipment and I sincerely hope Australia will test our mettle in Irian.

They would have to quit their day job first
Riyoz Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Who the heck needs weapons….people are starving here !!…Yo. Mr. Purba…”blabbering lick-spittle Chinamen” that’s kinda racist, don’t you think ?…..keep it down, man….
sputjam Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
aluang anak bayang said-

The Gurkha is considered the best trained soldier. We can easily wipe them off. Reminded of the Mongolian army where others doomed, our Javanese warriors defeated them.

This is indeed news to me. Monggolian army raiding java? what the heck for? They already go the best woman and cities to rape and loot in china.
As I know it, the thais were driven south from yunan by the Monggolian hordes. but nothing more concerning their adventure in south east asia.

Purba negoro said -

Do not forget we expelled the Japanese, Dutch and the British with obsolete weapons and bamboo spears.

I think the more likely reason was that they (japanese/dutch/british) voluntarily retreated due to tropical diseases and unbearable heat. Otherwise the indonesian may end up like the red indians.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 12:28 am
@ sputjam

This is indeed news to me. Monggolian army raiding java? what the heck for? …

I refuse to babysit you for something you can confirm online.
Sylvester Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Yup, Mongolian attacked Java to punish Singhasari. Raden Wijaya used them to attack his enemy but at the end betrayed them. Actually, Javanese never won. The reason that the Mongolian army retreated was because they had to catch the seasonal wind to return to China, otherwise they had to wait one year. It is an example of exaggerated Indo history by Orde Baru.

Kopassus may be strong in city combat and guerilla tactics. When the country such as the US, Russia, or China attack Indo (this is only example), it will only need one week combined air and naval strikes to wipe out all defences before the army land. Less tough than Iraq or Afghanistan. The problem will be to maintain security such as what is happening in Iraq today.

The point is, it obvious that the Indo armed forces (TNI) is very weak even can not protect its border. Also, corruption mentality has been very common among Javanese military leaders, Indonesia still one of the most corrupted country. Otherwise, how could a few thousands Dutch could conquered millions on them? So, getting more advanced equipment only is not enough. That at least what I understand from one of my friends from TNI.
sputjam Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
So monggolian sent a puny army and whacked the hell out of sri vijaya and majapahit and retreated due to heat and humidity and probabaly, nothing to loot and rape. they couldn’t find large cities like those found in china and elsewhere like samarkand/baghdad, so decided not to waste any effort on the java adventure.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
@ Sylvester

The Javanese’s Art of War:

You do not always win with might and strength, we use our brain.

@ sputjam

Thanks for google searching for information. Save me times.

Firstly, you did not even knew the Mongolians ever set foot on our shore. Now you attempt to belittle our valiant Javanese ancestors who protected our shore from invading barbarians. What more can I expect from a Melayu.

@ Sylvester

Kopassus may be strong in city combat and guerilla tactics. When the country such as the US, Russia, or China attack Indo (this is only example), it will only need one week combined air and naval strikes to wipe out all defences before the army land. Less tough than Iraq or Afghanistan. The problem will be to maintain security such as what is happening in Iraq today.

Wishful thinking. Indonesia can easily swallow a country like Australia within a day. When it comes to wit and agility, the ADF and the SAS are boy scouts compared to our regular TNI.

And do not try to drag China into this. The Chinese is part of our Great Asian race and they would not even bother to invade another country. A survey of the Chinese population, many think the American and Australian are busy bodies, interfering in other countries’ affair.
Janma Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Indonesia simply cannot be invaded. We have the knowledge and manufacturing facilities to produce all our own small-arms, ammunition and artillery,
advanced anti-tank rockets, clothing, medical goods, etc. All of which are controlled by the military.
Basel and Bofors assisted commissioning our steel-works and shipyards.
We can and do build combat helicopters.
All purchased equipment is easily and readily reverse engineered.
We already have stockpiles of chemical and nuero-chemicals.
We simply do not produce as it is more cost-effective in a macro-economic scenario to source externally

ummm….. Indonesia doesn’t even process their own fuel right?????

And do not try to drag China into this. The Chinese is part of our Great Asian race and they would not even bother to invade another country.

Is that right? what about Tibet then?

Ganyang Melayu! is still very fresh in our Javanese conscience and Temasek/Singapura is former Majapahit vassalage, as was Kambodia, as was Myanmar, as was Lanna Thai. We have historical claim to these former vassal territories as well as Northern Australia- as per archeological evidence.
ASEAN is Mataram Baru.

Trading trepang with someone off your fishing boat and sending a few gifts back and forth does not make a vassal.
Janma Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Do not forget we expelled the Japanese, Dutch and the British with obsolete weapons and bamboo spears.

Is that right? I’m sure world war II ended, and the Japaneses conceded defeat cause of those bamboo spears….
and who was it up there who said that asians never invade other countries?….ooh that’s right AAB…. so are the japs not asian then?
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
And do not try to drag China into this. The Chinese is part of our Great Asian race and they would not even bother to invade another country.

Is that right? what about Tibet then?

Tibet and Taiwan belong to China just as much as Australia, Brunei and Malaysia to our Mojopahit Empire. What ‘invade’?

and who was it up there who said that asians never invade other countries?”¦.ooh that’s right AAB”¦. so are the japs not asian then?

Any Javanese or the Pinoy or Thais can tell you that the Japs were guarding Asian territories from the Bules. Javanese celebrated when the Japs arrived to liberate them. Search for Joyoboyo’s prophesies.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Prince Joyoboyo’s prophesy:

The yellow dwarf people from the North will come to Java to chase the White buffaloes back to their stables.

This is more straight forward and clearer than the quran.
sputjam Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
There are no remnants of mojopahit empire outside java.No locals in brunei/australia(north)/malaysia have seen any records of mojopahit ever landed on their shores.
but malacca/johore-riau area of influence, yes they have heard of it. The sultan of johore still exist, whilst the remnants of sultan of malacca now resides in state of Perak as the sultan, in peninsular malaysia
The whole kalimantan belonged to brunei sultanate at one time.

In reality, the malay race are not as competent as the north east asians, or europeans, who would have recorded their history in a more detailed manner.Some of the more agressive asians are the monggolians, whose leader, genghis Khan, are genetically related to 1:200 people between the Pacific and urals in europe. imagine the number of women he must have ravished. Even the so called monggolian barbarians recorded their history in writting. So for the mojopahit rulers not to do so must only mean one thing. it did not exist. It exist only in poems of a court official.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
@ sputjam

There are no remnants of mojopahit empire outside java.No locals in brunei/australia(north)/malaysia have seen any records of mojopahit ever landed on their shores.

Mas sputjam, look at the traditional buildings or the royal residential palace of the royal family in Brunei. An outsider can tell you they resemble closer to the Javanese architectural style found in Central and East Java than the Riau Melayus. Sometime I wonder whether you are a pri for your ignorance of Indonesian cultures. Our legacies are far fetching and beyond.
sputjam Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 11:54 am
The Sultan of brunei palace resembles more like Minagkabau architecture, if you ask me. In the seventies and early eighties(when the palace was designed and built), this form of roof was the rage in non-indon, malay speaking world. It also includes the KL Hilton, now renamed as mutiara KL. It symbolses malayness, which is missing in the malay world.(actually neglected by developers who are consumed in building lifeless houses for the masses). To make it worse, the palace was designed by a an architect of european origin, who know nuts about anything local.
Basically, the whole of south east asia built houses on stilts, due to flooding and to prevent deadly animals and insects from coming into the houses. Most have straight roofs, like Thailand/Myanmar/Cambodia/Malay peninsular, which are either made from baked clay or thatched coconut leaves.
Walls are made from coconut leaves or wooden.

Coming back to Mojopahit, in reality, they did not leave any legacy behind in non-javanese malay world. Not even language, culture (in the form of dancing/weddings), writings, costume-(javanese designed batik are entirely different from he ones designed in oher parts of the malay world) etc.

However the legacy of pre-islamic hindu influence continue to this day, including language/weddings and custom/ buildings / etc. This hindu legacy spread far and wide in south east asia and includes Myanmar/Thailand/Vietnam/Khmer/malay peninsular/Java/sumatra. Some of the noptable buldings influence by India include borobodur/Angkor wat/ Bujang Valley (oldest is south east asia) but only floor remnants remained.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Sputjam

Coming back to Mojopahit, in reality, they did not leave any legacy behind in non-javanese malay world. Not even language, culture (in the form of dancing/weddings), writings, costume-(javanese designed batik are entirely different from he ones designed in oher parts of the malay world) etc.

Do you consider Bali and part of Lombok belonging to Java? It was in fact the court of Majapahit who brought their culture to Bali when they were forced out of Java by the spread of Islam. What the world comes to see here in Bali is in fact the reminiscence of the Majapahit legacy. The original Balinese (Bali Aga) society was totally different from Majapahit which only became the leading force after 1300 BCE.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Oops, my wrong. Should be 1300 CE of course.
Murphy Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Neither Majapahit or Srivijaya built empire like the Romans or the Qing Dynasty. If you’re looking for remnants of Majapahit influence in the archipelago chances are there is none.

First, the so-called “empire” was more like loose federation of states. Nothing involved direct administration. The “vassal” states were only required to send annual tributes to Trowulan or Palembang so they wouldn’t get attacked. Only very few were directly administered by Majapahit.

Second, most palaces and temples outside Java were made of wood. The Hindu culture (that stresses on stone temples) was not that strong in Sumatra or the Malay Peninsula.

There is a well recorded example of one with with direct administration though; the Dharmasraya kingdom in Middle Sumatra. It was subjugated by Singhasari, Majapahit’s precursor in the 13th century. Adityawarman, a Majapahit Lord was assigned to govern the kingdom. Apparently, the power got into his head; he seceded and created new kingdom called Pagaruyung in 14th century. For this treason Majapahit sent a punishing expedition soon after. No one was sure about who actually won the battles. But the palace was burnt to ash during the war (yes, it was made of wood).

The prince moved further to the west and created a smaller kingdom called Indrapura. New Pagaruyung were built soon after that; but it was no more Majapahit’s vassal since the empire was already in decline. The remnants of Majapahit administration can be found in the Minangkabau (the local who live around the kingdom) oral tradition that explained the administrative structure of the Pagaruyung kingdom, intriguingly resembled that of Majapahit.

The other kingdoms declared loyalty to Majapahit mostly for their own safety. Safety from Majapahit and safety from other’s attacks. Carrying “Majapahit brand” gave them the image of invincibility; much like the Europeans under NATO umbrella. But you can never say that they were administered, or even influenced by Majapahit.
Cukurungan Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
The point is, it obvious that the Indo armed forces (TNI) is very weak even can not protect its border. Also, corruption mentality has been very common among Javanese military leaders, Indonesia still one of the most corrupted country. Otherwise, how could a few thousands Dutch could conquered millions on them? So, getting more advanced equipment only is not enough. That at least what I understand from one of my friends from TNI.

That was only history when our ancestor have not yet comprehended the Art of War but in now days we have mastered ‘Art of War”. If other countries need Jet Fighter, Aircraft Bomber, Missile and Nuclear Deterrence for their defense system in the contrary we do not need that expensive arsenal because we have succeeded to develop a unique defense system based on our sex drive instead of the weaponry system. As long as we can keep up our sex drive, we have no reason to afraid any attack by foreign country. The foreign invaders may kill us as many as they can as happened on the past but our hobby in making kid would enable us to produce sustainable supply of the fresh troop to further continue on the war forever until the invaders lossing their battle will.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
March 19th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Aluang said

Javanese celebrated when the Japs arrived to liberate them.

Yes, but not for long. Famine, brutality and oppression quickly took over. Ask the jugun ianfu (comfort women) who are still alive and read Pramoedya Ananta Toer’s story ‘No Resolution’ from ‘Tales From Djakarta’. Yellow is still far from Brown, Aluang.
Sylvester Says:
March 20th, 2008 at 9:41 am
That was only history when our ancestor have not yet comprehended the Art of War but in now days we have mastered ‘Art of War”. If other countries need Jet Fighter, Aircraft Bomber, Missile and Nuclear Deterrence for their defense system in the contrary we do not need that expensive arsenal because we have succeeded to develop a unique defense system based on our sex drive instead of the weaponry system. As long as we can keep up our sex drive, we have no reason to afraid any attack by foreign country. The foreign invaders may kill us as many as they can as happened on the past but our hobby in making kid would enable us to produce sustainable supply of the fresh troop to further continue on the war forever until the invaders lossing their battle will.

Ha ha ha LOL. So you mean that the Indo, particularly Javanese human is cheap. Losing million will not matter. Poor Indonesia for having people with this kind of thought

Mao used to have this similar idea, but Deng is a lot smarter to see the important of quality and value of human soul.
Purba Negoro Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 1:52 am
Unfortunately I see I am unable to teach Ignroami that which they lack the wit to comprehend.
Siam still sees Javanese influence in many parts of its culture.
Kambodia still has Javanese era ruins in many parts of the country- including very Javanese names like Kampung Desa etc for its’ towns
Tagalog has widespread use of Javanese loan-words.
Malaysia- merely Mingangkabau

Sultan Brunei is a descendent of pirate raiders placed into an artificial throne by the British. He sought protection from neighbouring Fiefs for his own traitorous actions- prior to the British arriving.

Batik, ikat, kain etc are all regionally variegated- however the batik process itself remains uniform.
From Jogja to Solo- we can already see differences in batik- such as sagu for dyes rather than cobalt (Jogja)- and a simplified process (Solo)- but both originate form the one source.
The stereotypical “parang rusak” design is still a feature- although regional tastes even between Solo and Jogja make the two very difficult to relate as being the same motif- much like the Sidomukti star motif- seen all throughout Indonesia.

Many of the counter arguments are petty and emotive- one must expect such sour grapes from the less civilised non Javanese- most particularly the traitorous Batak- yes we remember 1957 very well.

For the historically ignorant- the British quit after the Nationalists bombed General Mallaby. The Chinese of Surabaya- should be noted as being keen willing collaborators of the Dutch and British. Many such lick-spittle Chinamen then ingratiated themselves into Holland, along with their kin from Semarang.
The Javanese Surabayan movement of “Rekso Roeksmekso”- organised to protest the monopolistic practices of Chinese business owners- was the actual true catalyst for organised armed Nationalist movement- in 1928.
Again I stress- a Javanese movement. Not Batak. Not Sumateran. Not Kalimantan. Not Manadonese.
Javanese. Along with Sumpah Permuda: “Satu Bangsa, Satu Boso” etc.
Javanese.

Lord Mountbatten was always opposed to the idea of sending British troops on a Dutch mission- thus this gave him reason enough to be heard in Whitehall and have the British removed.
Several companies of British Indian defected to the Nationalist cause too- so they should be credited as well.
The Dutch persisted until 1949- when finally US pressure regarding their squander of the bulk of their Marshall Loan was brought into consideration. The Dutch had spent well over half their Marshall Loan (worth at least 1 billion at the time- many billions in today’s money) while their own citizens dwelled in bombed out and starvation racked villages.
I knew one man, Kaas Melenhorst.- who told me of his family’s bitter life during that post-German period in Holland.

I post the following short bibliography that clearly substantiates Javanese influence in all ASEAN nations- a very clearly Javanese initiative that encompasses Majapahit.
Note these are MONOGRAPHS & THESES- not dime-store pulp fiction such as quoted by others above me.

“Javanese Influence on Indonesian”
By Soepomo Poedjosoedarmo
“Language Contact and Change in the Austronesian World”
By Thomas Edward Dutto et al
“Language Contact and Change in the Austronesian World”
By Thomas Edward Dutto
“Encyclopedia of Asian History”, By Ainslie Thomas Embree, Robin Jeanne Lewis et al
“Some Aspects of Asian History and Culture”
By P. K. Rajan, Upendra Thakur
“he Dictionary of Art” by Jane Turner
“Cambodian Architecture”- Jacques Dumarcay.

Jacques Dumarcay is one of the most brilliant Western scholars on the Javanese influence on the ASEAN region- look him up.