New Order Relics
February 15th, 2008, in News, by PatungWhether the government should pay heed to fatwas issued by the clerics’ council.
Politician and the principal of an Islamic boarding school, Salahuddin Wahid, said on 14th February that the government should not give any special credence or weight to fatwas issued by the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI).
This country is based on the 1945 constitution and the basic law.
The fatwa against Ahmadiyah, and presumably the fatwas against other other Islamic sects, were based on a particular religious viewpoint, which the government should not heed, he said.
Adnan Buyung Nasution
A member of the Presidential Advisory Council, Adnan Buyung Nasution, said the MUI was a relic of the New Order system, a means to control society. [1]
Surya newspaper front page.
Meanwhile, oblivious to this no doubt, MUI chairman Ma’ruf Amin said a number of parliament members have been petitioning the MUI to issue another fatwa, this time against Valentine’s Day, such as Anwar Saleh from the PBB, Crescent Star Party, who said:
It’s really needed.
Maruf said celebrating Valentine’s Day was obviously haram, or forbidden, but he wasn’t sure if a fatwa was needed, and no mention of any conspiracies. [2]
Tags: Adnan Buyung Nasution, Ahmadiyah, Constitution, Fatwa, Fatwas, Haram, Islam, Islamic, Majelis Ulama Indonesia, Maruf Amin, MUI, Parliament, PBB, Religious, Salahuddin Wahid, Ulama
63 Comments on “New Order Relics”
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Sylvester Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 4:40 amMUI should be abolished long time ago, because it is HARAM itself, LOL.
Maruf said celebrating Valentine’s Day was obviously haram, or forbidden, but he wasn’t sure if a fatwa was needed, and no mention of any conspiracies. [2]
The reason is he is afraid the moslem youth is influenced by the Christian value of love (St.Valentinus). Love is hardly recognize in Islam because Islam preferred harsh rule and violence. There is no single word in Quran telling people to love and care each other.
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Odinius Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 4:54 amI don’t dislike MUI because it’s a relic from the New Order; I dislike MUI because it attempts to exert control over individual decisions…
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Janma Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 9:07 amIf they’re going to issue fatwa’s then let them issue it to the people who follow them, not others. Why don’t they issue a fatwa against suicide bombing?
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Djoko Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 10:18 am1. The MUI can issue fatwas but they are not legally binding.
2. The side at fault here (as rightly pointed out in the original article with Salahuddin Wahid) is the government, who uses MUI fatwa’s as a reference point for public policy. As he said in the original article, the religious view on Ahmadiyah (for example) is that they are a deviant sect of Islam. What he’s saying here is that this is just a religious opinion and should not be enshrined in law.
3. Both proponents and opponents of the MUI seriously need to stop investing it with more (imagined) power than it really has.
4. If the MUI wants to issue a fatwa banning Valentines Day, let them have at it. But see point 1 with regards to how much attention people should feel required to pay to it.
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Bogalakon Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 10:39 amAgree with you Djoko,
MUI once issued fatwa against piracy, but government didn’t accommodate,
Now if MUI issues fatwa against Ahmadiah or Valentine’s day and government accommodate it, then the problem is government not MUI. -
February 15th, 2008 at 11:21 am@Djoko. Good points. Salahuddin and Nasution are right on the money with what they are saying. But it’s a two-way street. MUI exists because they were created by government as a government-sanctioned body. They have continued to exist because the government continues to sanction and sponsor them. Their fatwas, even if not legally binding, have the stamped approval of the government by the fact of its sponsorship.
Government support for MUI is a New Order relic that needs to be cast away
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ecky Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 12:09 pmAgreed with Janma, they should issue fatwa for other important things rather than banned Valentine’s celebration.
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February 15th, 2008 at 1:06 pmLove is hardly recognize in Islam because Islam preferred harsh rule and violence. There is no single word in Quran telling people to love and care each other.
From that words, It’s apparent that Sylvester never read Quran,
But how come he says “There is no single word in Quran…” as if he had read the entire Al-Qur’an?
The answer is poor conventional brain can only be fed by mass media provocation so it can not reach beyond stereotype
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Cukurungan Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 1:31 pmThe reason is he is afraid the moslem youth is influenced by the Christian value of love (St.Valentinus). Love is hardly recognize in Islam because Islam preferred harsh rule and violence. There is no single word in Quran telling people to love and care each other.
Evidence of the Christian Value of Love in this World:
1) 8 millions Jews killed by Hitler (a Pious Christian)
2) 10 million of Indian starved to death by Christian Ruler of United Kingdom
3) 100 Millions of Red Indian and Aboriginal exterminated from the earth by Christian Anglo
4) 15 millions Black Slave killed during Christian Trans Pacific Slave Trading
5) Hundred thousand muslim Indonesia people killed by Christian Dutch and billion US dollar Indonesia wealth was stolen by Christian DutchTherefore at whatever cost we will not let our brother and sister deceived by the Fake Christian Love
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Sputjam Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 1:44 pmFatwas cannot be issued by a human, unless that person claims himself to be God.
Mohamed nor any prophets, never claimed to be a clerics, imams or priests. They were mere messengers of God. They never issued fatwas. They merely relayed God’s messages.
Any person who allow himself to be dictated by another person’s point of view in faith, will eventually be deceived.
Seek God on your own. He is The Compassionate. The Omniscient.For the sincere, God may eventually guide him. For God guide Whom He wills. -
Lairedion Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 1:45 pmBoth sets of religions have had a violent history. Christians more than Muslims. As a non-follower of both I do feel sympathy with God, the Prophets, Jesus and Mohammed. They must be really disappointed with the behaviour of their so-called adherents.
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February 15th, 2008 at 1:47 pmAs always Sputjam has some wise words for all of us…
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Oigal Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 4:13 pmHundred thousand muslim Indonesia people killed by Christian Dutch and billion US dollar Indonesia wealth was stolen by Christian Dutch
mmm…so about 400,000 thousand less than killed after the dutch left or 200,000 thousand less than were killed in TIM TIM..
) 8 millions Jews killed by Hitler (a Pious Christian)
Oops no he wasnt but the Catholic Church have a lot to answer for
2) 10 million of Indian starved to death by Christian Ruler of United Kingdom
Mmmm..where did this come from?
3) 100 Millions of Red Indian and Aboriginal exterminated from the earth by Christian Anglo
There were 99.5 million Red Indians?
4) 15 millions Black Slave killed during Christian Trans Pacific Slave Trading
Funny I though Arab traders were raiding Africa to supply the market
5) Hundred thousand muslim Indonesia people killed by Christian Dutch and billion US dollar Indonesia wealth was stolen by Christian Dutch
Earth to CUK…Come on down, your oxygen supply is low
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February 15th, 2008 at 10:42 pmHow a out this? People are generally sh*t whether they believe in version A of God X, version B of God X or they believe in Gods A-Z.
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Andrew Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 11:13 pmevidence of the Christian Value of Love in this World:
1) 8 millions Jews killed by Hitler (a Pious Christian)
2) 10 million of Indian starved to death by Christian Ruler of United Kingdom
3) 100 Millions of Red Indian and Aboriginal exterminated from the earth by Christian Anglo
4) 15 millions Black Slave killed during Christian Trans Pacific Slave Trading
5) Hundred thousand muslim Indonesia people killed by Christian Dutch and billion US dollar Indonesia wealth was stolen by Christian DutchTherefore at whatever cost we will not let our brother and sister deceived by the Fake Christian Love
Ugh, CukCuk is damn right - I’m converting to Islam!
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February 16th, 2008 at 3:47 am- Jews say: Shalom aleichem
- Christians follow Jesus who said: “Peace on Earth and love thy neighbour”
- Muslims say: “Assalam alaikum”
- Quran [2:62] says: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.Why is it so hard for the respective adherents to maintain and follow the above-mentioned?
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February 16th, 2008 at 4:31 amLairedion speaks the truth.
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February 16th, 2008 at 5:33 amFrom that words, It’s apparent that Sylvester never read Quran,
But how come he says “There is no single word in Quran”¦” as if he had read the entire Al-Qur’an?
The answer is poor conventional brain can only be fed by mass media provocation so it can not reach beyond stereotype
Then, show me the verse if there is any. The good debate is attacking the comment, not the person. Otherwise, it is just an endless cat fight by low level intellegence creatures.
The true Christian is not just by baptism but have to follow the Jesus, that is love and care others. So, Christians never massacre others. In Islam, as long as you can say say syahadat and do 5x prayer, you are true Moslem, regardless whatever you are doing. This is the problem that Islam should fix to develop itselft.
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February 16th, 2008 at 11:43 amThe true Christian is not just by baptism but have to follow the Jesus, that is love and care others. So, Christians never massacre others. he Jesus, that is love and care others. So, Christians never massacre others.
Dear Mas Sylvester,
You are damn right why I already posted many time in IM that all true Christians were already death and extinct from this earth because the people who call them self Christian in now days they are still f*cking woman and doing massacre as we spoke just check it out what happened in Kenya.
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Teng Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 10:56 pmpeople who call them self Christian in now days they are still f*cking woman and doing massacre as we spoke just check it out what happened in Kenya.
Ah I see… just like the muslim Janjaweed are raping and killing women in Sudan?
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February 17th, 2008 at 12:20 amAh I see”¦ just like the muslim Janjaweed are raping and killing women in Sudan?
Exactly like that. Neither Christians nor Muslims nor Jews nor Hindus nor Buddhists have a monopoly on violence against civilians.
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February 17th, 2008 at 5:35 amMost religions prohibit violence. So, if someone commits violence, his could be considered not religious anymore. In the past, many violence occured in the name of the church, temple, whatsoever, which are wrong. In this modern world, many religions have reformed themselves. So we will never see someone killing others in the name of Jesus or Buddha, for example. However, there are still many persons today killing others in the name of Allah. To make it worse, a significant portion of Moslems support the idea.
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February 17th, 2008 at 6:14 amSylvester,
You’d better google the following modern Christian groups/persons:
- Lord’s Resistance Army (Uganda)
- Army of God (USA)
- Lambs of Christ (USA)
- National Liberation Front of Tripura (India)
- Various Chrisitian Lebanese militia groups
- Timothy McVeigh
- Various South African white supremacist groups such as the AWB
- Eric Robert RudolphBe careful with your statements about nobody killing in the name of Jesus in the modern world.
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February 17th, 2008 at 6:17 amGood call on Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph. Few people think it was religious violence, but they were inspired by “The Turner Diaries” and the “Christian Identity Movement” which seeks a Christian justification for both racism and anti-government violence.
I wonder when these fools will start blowing things up again…
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Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 9:23 am@ Odinius
Exactly like that. Neither Christians nor Muslims nor Jews nor Hindus nor Buddhists have a monopoly on violence against civilians.
When Moslems kill in the name of Allah, it is not violence because it is the duty of Muslims to protect Allah’s territory. Some innocent Muslims might accidently be killed, but Allah will look after them in heaven. This is how righteous our religion is. Islam is not a religion to fool around with like Buddhism or Christianity. We worship the real God, not another God’s creation.
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Mr. Tic Tac Toe Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 11:22 amPak Aluang.
When Moslems kill in the name of Allah, it is not violence because it is the duty of Muslims to protect Allah’s territory. Some innocent Muslims might accidently be killed, but Allah will look after them in heaven. This is how righteous our religion is.
Thats exactly the reason why your religion is horribly terrifying to me personally. Yes, call me a coward, i dont mind.
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Pakmantri Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 12:48 pm@ Aluang AB,
Throwing out the bait eh? Let’s see if anybody bites ……………….
Salam.
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Rob Baiton Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 2:45 pmMy understanding of the original post was that it was about the perceived powers of the Majelis Ulema Indonesia. The MUI is indeed a relic and must be preserved in the historical record but issuing fatwas against Valentine’s Day seems to be making moves in the wrong direction.
The fatwas of the MUI are not legally binding in the sense of rule of law in Indonesia, but that is to simplify to the extreme the force and weight that these fatwas carry. To use a boxing analogy the MUI punches well above its weight! However, the fatwas do not draw their strength from force of law but rather public pressures on government officials to not be labelled as being anti-Islam or bad Muslims for failure to heed the advice of the MUI as contained in the fatwa.
When you set up an organization to be the final determiner of what the Koran and haddiths say or are interpreted to say then you create a situation where you have to take the good with the not so good.
The other issue with fatwas and particularly the fatwa outlawing the beliefs of Ahmadiyah seem to be in direct contravention of the supposed provisions of the Constitution guaranteeing freedom of religion or belief. Just because something diverges from the mainstream does not make it automatically wrong or even misguided. Let’s face it if the Church could have had its way we would still be learning that the earth is square and that the sun revolves around the earth.
I was not surprised that the thread degenerated quickly into which religion is the more evil or which is the right path to paradise / heaven. Men, women, and children have killed in the name of their respective Gods for many, many, many millenia and perhaps the MUI needs to issue a fatwa that on at least one day of every year people have to come together irrespective of their relevant faiths and spread and share some love — you do not have to call it Valentine’s Day, call it an inter-faith day of tolerance and peace for all I care, but let’s move on from the hate and the blame and the mistrust!
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February 17th, 2008 at 9:07 pmSylvester said:
However, there are still many persons today killing others in the name of Allah. To make it worse, a significant portion of Moslems support the idea.
Me:
Mas Silvester well said and another new enligtenmen from your post, it is still OK for the infidels to kill, rape and slaughter other as long as they do it not in the name of Jesus but it is very bad for muslim to kill the infidels because the muslim do that in the name of Allah
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February 17th, 2008 at 9:22 pmMr. Tic Tac Toe said:
Thats exactly the reason
why your religion is horribly terrifying to me personally. Yes, call me a coward, i dont mind.’me :
He he he because Mas Aluang Religion is Kahariangan…better for you never try to confront him otherwise your head will fly
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chammer Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 11:16 pmMr. Aluang Anak Bayang:
When Moslems kill in the name of Allah, it is not violence because it is the duty of Muslims to protect Allah’s territory. Some innocent Muslims might accidently be killed, but Allah will look after them in heaven. This is how righteous our religion is. Islam is not a religion to fool around with like Buddhism or Christianity. We worship the real God, not another God’s creation.
At first glance, one could read your post and think that the only reason that a Moslem would kill in the name of Allah would be in defense of “Allah’s territory.” However Islam teaches from the 9th sura (9:5;29 as an example) that the Moslem is to strive against the unbeliever until he submits (ie becomes a Moslem), pays the jinza or fights. Since the all the earth is the territory of Allah, every nation and people are a target. If you see this as “righteous” then you indeed are a good moslem, at least one who follows his book. Thanks for your honesty.
chammer
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February 18th, 2008 at 12:00 am@ Chammer
Thank you for sharing your thought.
These days, it is trendy to follow the West and hates all Muslims. Allah swt had make it clear in the quran that the Jews should not be trusted, as they are constantly looking for ways to break up the ummah. The Christians are not to be blamed because they are gullible and always played into the hand of the Jews. Only a 3rd party (e.g the Chinese who are Atheist) can see who was actually the troublemaker. Majority of Chinese think America deserve the wrath of Allah swt by messing with the muslims.
Salam,
Your peaceful brother. -
February 18th, 2008 at 12:06 amAssalamualaikum Mas Cuk
He he he because Mas Aluang Religion is Kahariangan”¦better for you never try to confront him otherwise your head will fly
First, May Allah swt bring you peace and prosperity.
Secondly, why is your head lopsided?
Thirdly, I am a Javanese Muslim. I love nongkrong and maen perkutut.
Wasalam.
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February 18th, 2008 at 3:46 amSylvester,
You’d better google the following modern Christian groups/persons:
- Lord’s Resistance Army (Uganda)
- Army of God (USA)
- Lambs of Christ (USA)
- National Liberation Front of Tripura (India)
- Various Chrisitian Lebanese militia groups
- Timothy McVeigh
- Various South African white supremacist groups such as the AWB
- Eric Robert RudolphBe careful with your statements about nobody killing in the name of Jesus in the modern world.
Ha ha catch u!
The point is they are not supported by 99% of Christians, which means they are not considered Christians. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda, Hamas, JI, Amrozi & friends and many others Islamic terrorist organizations have a significant support from Moslems. Guess, probably some of them are here in IM, LOL -
February 18th, 2008 at 4:40 amAre you a Christian, Sylvester?
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February 18th, 2008 at 7:29 am1) 8 millions Jews killed by Hitler (a Pious Christian)
Oops no he wasnt but the Catholic Church have a lot to answer forThe lot answer is the same with the truth fabrication
2) 10 million of Indian starved to death by Christian Ruler of United Kingdom
Mmmm..where did this come from?Read History of UK Christian role in Indian during 19 C
3) 100 Millions of Red Indian and Aboriginal exterminated from the earth by Christian Anglo
There were 99.5 million Red Indians?Pak Oigal have you passed the elementary school? why you can not understand simple subtraction and summation”¦another 500 thousand is the aboriginal
4) 15 millions Black Slave killed during Christian Trans Pacific Slave Trading
Funny I though Arab traders were raiding Africa to supply the marketWhen Arab trader handed over the slave to the Christian trader, all slaves were still alive and the Christian trader made most the slave death during transportation to USA.
Earth to CUK”¦Come on down, your oxygen supply is low
I have enough oxygen but you may need to reduce you consumption on the local beer because it could probably damage your brain.
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February 18th, 2008 at 9:07 amMohamed did not create the religion of islam.
Mohamed was against pagan worship.
The people who embrace the religion of islam indulge in pagan worship, by participating in the HAJ in mecca.
All religion promotes some form of pagan/idol worship, which is against what was relayed by Mohamed.
This verse posted by lairedion confirms everything -- Quran [2:62] says: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
You do not need a religion to believe in God. You merely have to submit to God by doing good and righteous deeds. It is so simple, but many do not understand.
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February 18th, 2008 at 2:19 pmSputjam,
I posted this verse to try and explain the behaviour of monotheistic religion followers. I do not agree with this verse completely because it’s doesn’t address the non-believers.
What do you think of people who do not believe in God but are righteous and do good deeds and what will happen to them in the afterlife if there is a God waiting there to judge them?
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Janma Says:
February 18th, 2008 at 4:15 pmOh my God guys!!!!!!
None of this is serving anyone!!!!
Lets see who killed more…… if you killed less then you are better?
If the christians killed people that makes it ok for muslims to kill people?
Were all the aboriginals and native americans killed for their religious beliefs?
What about the quakers and other Christians who saved many many runaway slaves in america…. they did that in the name of jesus…. the people who operated the slave trade did not do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of economics…. and justru because of christians in the end it was outlawed.
The whole point is to make things better, not look to the past and try to be worse!
Cuk, how is the tallying going? Christians killed say 40 million people? How many the muslims got to go until they catch up? Wouldn’t want to be left behind dong…. gengsi! -
February 18th, 2008 at 6:01 pm…. The good debate is attacking the comment, not the person. Otherwise, it is just an endless cat fight by low level intellegence creatures.
So far, all I can see here in IM is always a debat kusir or what you called an endless cat fight. Aren’t we here for commenting and mocking person with low level intelligence? So what’s wrong if I’m also trying to comment another low level intelligent person whose comment is only an irritation and prejudice?
The true Christian is not just by baptism but have to follow the Jesus, that is love and care others. So, Christians never massacre others. In Islam, as long as you can say say syahadat and do 5x prayer, you are true Moslem, regardless whatever you are doing. This is the problem that Islam should fix to develop itselft.
Again, what is your reference (if it’s not only your prejudice) in telling that true Muslim is only obliged to say syahadat and do 5x a day prayer? I’ve been a Muslim for all my life and I never been taught (even by what you will call a fundamentalist ustadz.) that to be a true Muslim is only about syahadat and shalat regardless what I’m doing. In Qur’an, it was said woe to Muslim who worship God but doesn’t manifest his prayer in his life, and God entitles Muslim who repulses the orphan as betraying the religion as it said in the Qur’an surah Al-Maa’uun.
I intended quoting Qur’an verse about love and affection on my previous comment, but I wasn’t sure whether you would read it. Now because you ask me to, I will quote some of them.
Actually there are a lot of verses regarding this, but I would like to put one of my favorites verse:
“And among His Signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.” Ar-ruum 30:21
“It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” Al-Mumtahanah 60:7
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Dragonwall Says:
February 19th, 2008 at 7:41 amSince someone said only God can issue fatwas, then why are these morons issuing fatwas saying this and that?
They should be writing fatwas to their family members and make sure they screw around in the first place.
The Justice Minister should make sure that these clerics do not overstep their religious authorization on the Judicial turf.
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February 19th, 2008 at 8:45 amJanma said:
the people who operated the slave trade did not do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of economics…. and justru because of christians in the end it was outlawed.The whole point is to make things better
Me :
You tell me how to make things better …by mocking our belief and our clerics and without shame those infidels promoting their fake teaching.
Before you concluded anything
Let us traces back from the beginning of the posting who was initially started the garbage posting what I was done just put another garbage. The garbage get the garbage… don’t you think that is fair enough. Remember I am the entertainers dedicated to infidels and I will do my best to keep the infidels always smile in this short life.Regard,
Aborigin Warrior -
February 19th, 2008 at 10:34 amSince someone said only God can issue fatwas, then why are these morons issuing fatwas saying this and that?
Well actually fatwas are religious advice/opinion, as opposed to law as such. So they have every right to issue fatwas, as they are mere opinion. It’s the equivalent of a scholar (not necessarily religious) commenting on some issue or another that they have researched about. If you don’t like their opinion, don’t follow it. Simple. Wouldn’t be the first time it’s happened. Just look at all the Islamic organisations in Indonesia (Muhammadiyah, NU, Persis, LDII, so on), which were usually formed on the basis of not agreeing with the religious opinions (fiqh and fatwa) of another group.
Fatwas and fiqh are not an institution like the Catholic Church. The more that people who actually oppose fatwas perpetuate the myth that they have some great power (which they do not), the more they will continue to be a problem.
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February 19th, 2008 at 2:44 pmAgain, what is your reference (if it’s not only your prejudice) in telling that true Muslim is only obliged to say syahadat and do 5x a day prayer? I’ve been a Muslim for all my life and I never been taught (even by what you will call a fundamentalist ustadz.) that to be a true Muslim is only about syahadat and shalat regardless what I’m doing.
This is the fact, not prejudice. Once anybody can say syahadat and do 5 x prayer, he/she will be considered as Moslem by other Moslem in general. Do not deny it! The point is easy to become Moslem (that’s why the number is increasing), but how many of them are true? I am questioning the quality of the Moslem. If love is one of basic Islam value (which could be implisitly mentioned in Quran), why there are so many violence in Islamic community around the world even among themselves? (Iraq, Shia vs Sunni, Afghanistan, MILF, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc). Are these people are not true Moslem?
To be honest, I also want to see good Moslem living together, but how?
Back to MUI, are those clerics true Moslem?
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February 19th, 2008 at 6:42 pmWere all the aboriginals and native americans killed for their religious beliefs?
Yes, the mindset of the White Man was based on Christianity (Catholic Spanish, Portuguese and French and Protestant Dutch, English and French) as the only true religion and white supremacy. All savages needed to be converted, assimilated or killed.
What about the quakers and other Christians who saved many many runaway slaves in america”¦. they did that in the name of jesus”¦. the people who operated the slave trade did not do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of economics”¦. and justru because of christians in the end it was outlawed.
What did the ex-slaves and other non-whites get in return? Institutionalized racism in the shape of many race segregation laws which still existed deep in the 20th century in Dixie (Southern States, Bible Belt). Murdering and lynching of blacks, Catholics and leftist Whites was a favorite passtime by White Southerners whose ideology was based on Protestantism and White Supremacy. KKK are the best examples of Godfearing, churchgoing Protestant racist murdering whites. Martin Luther King and Robert F. Kennedy gave their lives for fighting this backwardish culture.
South African Apartheid was also based on White Protestant beliefs. Many South Afican whites (Boers) are descended from Dutch Reformed Protestants and French Huguenots.
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February 20th, 2008 at 2:27 amWell actually fatwas are religious advice/opinion
Then why are they stressing and trying to tell others to follow what they preach? Don’t you think that they overstep others jurisdiction of belief?
as opposed to law as such.
Even Yusril Mahendra had that drafted and Agung Laksono even have to check to see if envelopes was passed for that to be pass for enfrorcement. Don’t you think even a Minister is doing that, don’t you think that the clerics were thinking that the state law condones their existence to try and dictate other’s life?
So they have every right to issue fatwas, as they are mere opinion. It’s the equivalent of a scholar (not necessarily religious) commenting on some issue or another that they have researched about.
Right to issue fatwas in within the domain of the religion and not as a public statement that though that it will become a law. You may take that in your own interpretation that they are not but they were actually doing that.
If you don’t like their opinion, don’t follow it. Simple
If I were to issue a fatwa and tell you that you have to abide by the Zionist opinion would you feel kind of uneasy? Tell me honestly.
Come to think of that, you should have thought further if you refer to as opinion. What when it actually happens and a conflict arises? When it arises like in Kalimantan and that again erupted into a civil commotion between the Dayaks then what? And what if there were a serious case of resentment and a riot occurs again then what?
Have you ever thought of all these problems. Please don’t tell me that it will not or might not happen because it was just a religious opinion.]
A religious opinion will not in any way discriminate and dictate some other people’s life. But this is.
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February 20th, 2008 at 7:49 amThe point is easy to become Moslem (that’s why the number is increasing), but how many of them are true? I am questioning the quality of the Moslem.
Is it hard to become Christian? Because Jesus never f**k woman so any Christian Man who f**k the woman could not be considered as the true Christian any more… Is that you want trying to say…so no wonder why to become true Christian many Christian Priest prefer to consume a boy rather than woman?
I am questioning the quality of the Moslem. If love is one of basic Islam value (which could be implisitly mentioned in Quran), why there are so many violence in Islamic community around the world even among themselves? (Iraq, Shia vs Sunni, Afghanistan, MILF, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc). Are these people are not true Moslem?
Why you concerning something that none of your business while there are still many Christian in Congo, Kenya, Columbia, Papua, NTT and Ambon are more deserve your service but you neglect them “¦.therefore much better for you save them first not us”¦. prove it to us that no more misery in Christian World hence all Muslim will be bowed to your will “¦Is that clear sir
The violence in the Muslim world are just only emulating the violence in the Christian WorldTo be honest, I also want to see good Moslem living together, but how?
Simple dudes,…if You could shut up your mouth in saying I will save you …everything will be OK
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February 20th, 2008 at 10:49 am@ dragonwall
The way I see fatwas, and the way that most people should see them is as the equivalent of someone writing a book or an article in a journal - ie in the public sphere or as a ‘public statement’. These people are no different in that they want not only their views to be heard, but people to agree with and follow them. For example you wouldn’t write an article about how wonderful the New Order era was economically and socially just for the fun of it, the basic purpose behind you writing said article would be so that people would at some stage be able to take your view on that particular period of history as being the most correct analysis of the situation.
Now just because someone writes an article about how safe and wonderful the New Order was, this certainly doesn’t mean you have to consider it as such does it? Similarly if the MUI wants to dish out fatwas in the full belief that people should follow them, they can do that all the want, but barring things being written into law, you don’t have to feel any obligation to do so.
As for this:
Come to think of that, you should have thought further if you refer to as opinion. What when it actually happens and a conflict arises? When it arises like in Kalimantan and that again erupted into a civil commotion between the Dayaks then what? And what if there were a serious case of resentment and a riot occurs again then what?
Have you ever thought of all these problems. Please don’t tell me that it will not or might not happen because it was just a religious opinion.]
This is precisely the reason why people have to come back down to earth and start treating fatwas as what they really are - religious opinion from informed scholars but not by any means absolute truth or law. The precise reason why you have violence taking place over these fatwas is that people are taking them far too seriously as the final say on a matter, rather than an opinion of an individual (or group) of scholars which can just as easily be edited, cut, amended or replaced all together. This is precisely what the opponents of particular fatwas should be concentrating their defenses on and work towards doing.
People at the moment on both sides of the MUI argument have created a climate of (mis)understanding where everyone thinks that MUI is this massive leviathan ready to swallow the state at any time. The MUI would certainly like to consider itself in such an important light, though it has no right to. It has no real power (in terms of being an official body to establish public laws which everyone must follow), but is being invested with a lot of imagined power by both Muslims and non-Muslims at the moment. Disbanding the MUI at the moment won’t really do much, because people will just look for another large body to dish out fatwas for them (the NU and Muhammadiyah have their own bodies for this at any rate). What is needed is a change in the way that people think about fatwas. If you can get people taking them as what they are - opinion (albiet informed but still completely fallible) - you will create a climate where people will be able to deal with fatwas in a more level headed way.
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February 21st, 2008 at 1:40 amDjoko
This is precisely the reason why people have to come back down to earth and start treating fatwas as what they really are - religious opinion from informed scholars but not by any means absolute truth or law. The precise reason why you have violence taking place over these fatwas is that people are taking them far too seriously as the final say on a matter, rather than an opinion of an individual (or group) of scholars which can just as easily be edited, cut, amended or replaced all together. This is precisely what the opponents of particular fatwas should be concentrating their defenses on and work towards doing.
You are right to put it in this way, BUT..BUT..How many of these clerics do sincerely belief in promoting what they say? NONE to be precise.
First they say it is for the good of Muslimins, then suddenly everyone will have to follow them, then law was enacted to leash them, then suddenly debates and arguments on difference emerge from everywhere.
THAT IS THE PROBLEMS. If a cleric were to clearly say to their followers and within their religious domain, not cuts, not editting , no if and no buts. CLERALY STATES.
Then you and I won’t be in a different spot trying to figure out what will they come up next.
Let me give you an example ok.
Why are there so many mosque that could be built almost anywhere and not Churches or Viharas?
Why are they carrying out prayers not within the mosques but block up the whole area be it a lorong or alley or street. It seems that everyone owes them a living and have to accomodate them. Then why are they not accomodating others.
The moment there is something, which is considered to be none of their business, they will gang up, group up and suddenly they were every where wearing all kinds of headress. Twenty years ago no one seems to be wearing the Palestinians headress and now you can literally see them in a country that was so badly indoctrinated by Jihadists and Muslim Militants.
Di you see any changes in the people who were Christians and Buddhist or Hindus? NO CHANGE.
ISLAM BIG CHANGE. WHY? SMARTER? BRAVER? RICHER? NAME IT. IT’S ALL THERE. The moment we open our eyes, they were ready to make certain unorthodox move. Don’t you get fed up with them?
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Murphy Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 10:19 amFatwa is not law. It’s scholar’s opinion. Live with it.
Criticism should be addressed to the government who politicised the fatwa for their own popularity, or the one who allows violence for whatever reason.
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dewaratugedeanom Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 12:01 pmDjoko said
People at the moment on both sides of the MUI argument have created a climate of (mis)understanding where everyone thinks that MUI is this massive leviathan ready to swallow the state at any time. The MUI would certainly like to consider itself in such an important light, though it has no right to. It has no real power (in terms of being an official body to establish public laws which everyone must follow), but is being invested with a lot of imagined power by both Muslims and non-Muslims at the moment.
They may not have real direct power, but their lobbying power is enormous, especially in a nation where belief in a Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa is written in its basic principles.
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February 21st, 2008 at 1:20 pmThis is the fact, not prejudice. Once anybody can say syahadat and do 5 x prayer, he/she will be considered as Moslem by other Moslem in general. Do not deny it! The point is easy to become Moslem (that’s why the number is increasing).
If you are talking is just about how to be considered as Muslim, yes, you’re probably right.
When I was in high school, most of my schoolmates never did shalat, neither I ever heard them saying syahadat. But I considered them as Muslim, so did the teacher, because what? Because they said themselves Muslims. In other words, one may be considered as Muslim by simply call himself a Muslim. This is because Islam has no strict definition of what Islam is, Islam has only strict guide of how to be a Muslim. By definition, it’s hard to state whether one is Muslim or not, we can only state that one’s behavior is guided or misguided.
Anyway, I’ve been longing for this statement “The point is easy to become Moslem”.
After all the contemptuous on Sharia Islam, finally this statement appears which is in line with Al-Qur’an.“”¦Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties”¦” Al-baqarah 2:185
(that’s why the number is increasing)
You’re right, more and more people convert/revert to Islam because they know Islam offers easiness. The God concept is easy to understand, the guideline is easy to follow, and the life will be easier. If only people knew how easy Islam is, they will stop discrediting Islam.
“We have not sent down the Qur-an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress,” At-Thaahaa 20:2
but how many of them are true? I am questioning the quality of the Moslem.
No Muslim can judge himself or the other as a true Muslim, as I said before, we can only affirm that one’s behavior is guided or misguided. In Islam, Heaven is God’s Prerogative, No one can guarantee himself deserves heaven, neither claim it’s undeserved for the others.
why there are so many violence in Islamic community around the world even among themselves? (Iraq, Shia vs Sunni, Afghanistan, MILF, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc).
Violence happens in every society, not exclusive in Islam, I don’t need to mention it one by one, just watch the news and see how many violence occurs unrelated to Islam. I know you would say that there are only Muslims who do violence in the name of their religion.
This is because Muslim Community always gets constant harassed from non-Muslim. Remember, Jihad concept was not popular in Indonesia until the westerner invaded our land. During the Dutch occupation, Jihad is the useful ideology for Indonesian to survive against colonialism, and I think it also happens in another Muslim country, Al-Qaeda was established during the soviet invasion in Afghanistan, and there were no Hamas until Israeli chased away Palestinian.
To be honest, I also want to see good Moslem living together, but how?
Thanks, I think every person wants to live in peace. In Indonesia, it’s not easy to eliminate in just a few decades a Jihad ideology which has been proven useful during centuries. It takes time for us”¦ mmmhhh for westerner to convince us that they have no more intention to plunder our land again.
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Janma Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 9:45 amWhen Arab trader handed over the slave to the Christian trader, all slaves were still alive and the Christian trader made most the slave death during transportation to USA.
For your information, slavery was only abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962. The Muslims were as big if not bigger slave traders than any christian country, and for longer…. so put that in your hookah and smoke it….
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February 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 amIf only people knew how easy Islam is, they will stop discrediting Islam.
Islam needs no help from others to be discredited..have you not been reading.
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Achmad Sudarsono Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 4:22 pmUm, Oigal, can u elaborate. Are u implying indirectly that other religions haven’t ? Maybe it’d be better to say “religion” has discredited itself. Or do you mean specifically Islam ?
If so, why Islam, rather than Christianity, Hinduism, and even the iMac’s religion of choice, Buddhism ?
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janma Says:
February 24th, 2008 at 4:34 pmMaybe it’d be better to say “religion” has discredited itself. Or do you mean specifically Islam ?
Actually, all religions are a credit to themselves. The purpose of religion is to inhibit knowledge, control the masses and to give one a feeling of superiority over others of different beliefs. According to these parameters all religions are going exactly as planned and are a credit to their names. Amen.
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February 25th, 2008 at 4:31 amDunno. I see the “control” argument for organized religion, but not for belief in the divine. I think a seriously overlooked aspect of religion is that it exists in large part to help people cope with the inevitability of death. In that sense no religion is really all that different from any other.
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February 25th, 2008 at 5:45 amRemember, Jihad concept was not popular in Indonesia until the westerner invaded our land. During the Dutch occupation, Jihad is the useful ideology for Indonesian to survive against colonialism
Jihad was not a popular concept during the struggle against the Dutch. Indonesian independence was won by a secular struggle, especially the leaders. Only in Aceh it was sometimes referred to as a jihad.
Indonesian independence has always been about the right of a people to govern their own territory, nothing to do with religion.
Blaming the fact that “jihad” becomes more popular in Indonesia because of Westerners however does really fit the profile of the tendency to blame every problem in Indonesia on someone else
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February 25th, 2008 at 7:53 amJihad was not a popular concept during the struggle against the Dutch. Indonesian independence was won by a secular struggle, especially the leaders. Only in Aceh it was sometimes referred to as a jihad.
I don’t really get the point, it seems that you’re saying that there were no Jihad campaign by Indonesian against the Dutch. I know the secularist were also struggle for independence, but saying there were no jihad campaign except in Aceh, mmhh?????, once again I don’t really get the point.
Blaming the fact that “jihad” becomes more popular in Indonesia because of Westerners however does really fit the profile of the tendency to blame every problem in Indonesia on someone else
This statement does also really fit the westerner profile of the tendency to be irresponsible for every problem they have caused.
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February 25th, 2008 at 8:52 amMaybe it’d be better to say “religion” has discredited itself. Or do you mean specifically Islam.
Probably correct, as someone who does not really understand this over powering need for some “big daddy in the sky” I have no issues expanding the net.
However, as we are primarlily talking about Indonesia in this case (not the deep south nutters or the hillsong nutters in oz). Figure its a fair point. If you want to wear your religion on your sleeve both as person and as a Nation, it removes the option to look the other way when bad Sh#t happens as result.
If you have some (?) of the nation’s leaders utilising religion to promote their own bizarre agendas as part of some divine message that only they can only understand (and why would big daddy pick such dipshits) then its right to say the religion is being discredited along with the nation.
all religions are going exactly as planned and are a credit toThe purpose of religion is to inhibit knowledge, control the masses and to give one a feeling of superiority over others of different beliefs. According to these parameters their names. Amen.
Janma..you said it !
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February 25th, 2008 at 11:27 amISLAM BIG CHANGE. WHY? SMARTER? BRAVER? RICHER? NAME IT. IT’S ALL THERE.
You are forgot something that the Islam follower are nicer and charmer like myself
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February 25th, 2008 at 3:06 pmHard to argue with that.
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February 26th, 2008 at 2:04 amRight, can’t you see there are others who simply disagree because it is hard to argue about that. Comon plez how could a corrupt thief be nicer and charmer. Unless you said you have converted to Zionistan.
If you have some (?) of the nation’s leaders utilising religion to promote their own bizarre agendas as part of some divine message that only they can only understand (and why would big daddy pick such dipshits) then its right to say the religion is being discredited along with the nation.
Yeah if we all look around in world politic, in every Islamic nations or society, the leaders or politicians from Indonesia to Urumqi and from Asia to Far-west-kistan when it comes to pacifying their people they bring or never forget to bring the Islamic religion into the picture unlike other politicians where religion is probable a forgotten agenda in their campaign.
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