Ahmadiyya

Jan 16th, 2008, in IM Posts, by

Ahmadiyah makes changes to its beliefs and avoids being banned by the government.

Continued from Religious Intolerance and Banning Islamic Sects.

No Ban

Pakem (Pengawas Aliran Kepercayaan Masyarakat, Overseers of the Peoples' Beliefs), made up of representatives of the Attorney General's Office, police, the State Intelligence Agency and the Religious Affairs Ministry, decided on 15th January not to ban Ahmadiyya, despite a fatwa by the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) that had declared Ahmadiyya an heretical Islamic sect. [1]

Teacher not Prophet

The decision not to ban the group was made after Ahmadiyya leaders caved into pressure and issued a 12-point statement saying they acknowledged Muhammad as the last prophet, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was simply a teacher.

Pakem however said it may change its decision if Ahmadiyya failed to fully implement the changes to its formal belief structure, and gave the group 3 months to do so. [2]

Wisnu Subroto, the deputy attorney general of intelligence, said:

We will keep watching and evaluating their activities over the next three months. If Ahmadiyya fails to follow through on their declaration, we will discuss later what to do about it.

Jemaat Ahmadiyah Indonesia (JAI) leader Ahmad Basit said his group had the same beliefs as mainstream Islam.

Like other Muslims, Ahmadiyya followers also recite syahadat (the two sentences of faith), acknowledging Muhammad as the last prophet. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only our teacher.

Ahmadiyya also said they would not try to convert other Muslims to their way of thinking, but said they would instead strengthen relations with mainstream Muslims.

Wisnu asked the public to respect Ahmadiyya's goodwill and willingness to change, and accept Pakem's decision.

Still not happy

However about 1,000 Muslims staged a protest in Bandung, West Java to demand the government disband Ahmadiyya. Hedi Muhammad from the West Java Alliance of Muslims said:

The Ahmadiyah organization is as heretical as Al-Qiyadah al-Islamiyah.

And the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) leader Ma'ruf Amin said Ahmadiyya's decision to acknowledge Muhammad as the final prophet was not enough to lift the fatwa from the group. Saying that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was simply a teacher could be interpreted in various ways, worried Maruf. [3]

This article in Indonesian - Ahmadiyyah.


196 Comments on “Ahmadiyya”

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  1. avatar ade wanto says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    Before accept Ahmadiyya as true Moslems, it will be better if we read their guidance book written by Ahmadiyya founder, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Is it true that in the book written by their founder says that Ahmadiyya claim Mirza Ghulam Ahmad only simply as a teacher? But, the decision to release 12-point statement from Ahmadiyya follower in Indonesia was a smart move to avoid Indonesia Govt ban this sect.

    To judge a religion or a sect I think we must learn their god, their scriptures, and their messenger – their basic guidance. Not only from a press release which contain 12-point statements. It is not simply as that but I think indeed we must appreciate Ahmadiyya’s goodwill and willingness to change to be true Moslems. And, the important thing, stop damaging Ahmadiyya’s property.

  2. avatar The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement Blog » Blog Archive » Qadianis in Indonesia DROP belief in Hazrat Mirza as prophet says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    [...] http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1539/ahmadiyya/ [...]

  3. avatar Sylvester says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 7:07 am

    To judge a religion or a sect I think we must learn their god, their scriptures, and their messenger – their basic guidance

    It is correct. There is one way to judge the religion based on the Einstein approach that can be read in http://www.harvardhouse.com. It is an interesting website!

  4. avatar pleeezponder says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 8:29 am

    The Ahmediya jamaat believes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani is Nabi and they don’t believe in the finality of Muhammed pbuh. This is theior core belief. They also believe that Mirza ghulam is promised messiah, a reincarnation of Hindu god Krishna and many other.

    His religion is a parallel religion and has nothing to do with Islam. It is worth pointing out that He declared all Muslims who do not believe him as off-spring of prostitutes and his son, who was second khalifa of his jamaat, declared all Muslim Umma Kafir and outside pale of Islam who does not accept mirza ghulam as nabi; even if one has not heard mgaq’s name.

    Please visit http://www.ahmedi.org and visit their forum for detailed information about this cult. If Indonesia don’t declare them non-Muslim like many other Muslim countries, Ahemdiyya jamaat claims to be Muslim and others non Muslims.

    Please email me if you need more info.

  5. avatar Toni says:
    January 19th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    It’s a difficult compromise made by Ahamdiyah in Indonesia, even with the statement, conservatives clerics still imposing their fatwa. I would urge this government to stop playing God. Having different faith from mainstream doesn’t mean violating the law of the land. It’s a basic human rights.

  6. avatar Honda says:
    January 20th, 2008 at 12:45 am

    Most of the things said about Qadianis/ Ahmadiya Jamaat are totally baseless and full of one sided propaganda. Its just like America or west does propaganda against muslims and label them terrorists or evil people & most people just start believing what their media says without actually studying the teachings of islam. Likewise same does mainstream muslim towards other smaller sects. Ahmadiya people are doing good service to islam and yes there are some differences just like there are differences between 72 other sects of islam. All are blood thirsty for each other. So instead of following baseless false propaganda everything about these Qadianis can be found at their official website http://www.alislam.org

  7. avatar pleeezponder says:
    January 20th, 2008 at 11:07 am

    Below is the link of ahmadiyya cult’s official website. Please read what Basheeruddin Memood , son of Mirza ghulam Ahmed and their second Khalifa. According to him anyone who does not beleive that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is A NABI OR has not even heard the name of mirza ghulam qadiani is KAFIR and outside Islam.

    Here is quote:

    Quote:

    These changes, according to Maulawi Muhammad Ali, relate to three matters; (1) that I propagated the belief that Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was actually
    a Nabi;
    (2) the belief that he was ‘the Ahmad’ spoken of in the prophecy of Jesusas referred to in the Holy Quran in Al-Saff 61:7; and (3) the belief that all those
    so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiahas. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I
    readily admit. What I deny is the statement that I have been entertaining these views since 1914 or only three or four years before. On the contrary, as I shall presently show, the first and the last of these beliefs were entertained by me even during the lifetime of the Promised Messiah”.

    Unquote:

    here is link FROM THEIR OFFICIAL WEBSITE.
    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth-about-the-Split.pdf
    page no. pdf 71 of 430

    Do you have doubts now?

  8. avatar Suspect Paki » Blog Archive » The End of Ahmadiyya? says:
    January 21st, 2008 at 8:06 am

    [...] it appears that the foundations of the movement have been smashed as the Indonesian Ahmadiyya has publicly declared that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was not a prophet after all, but just a teacher. This is interesting in the light of Mr. Mirza’s repeated proclamations [...]

  9. avatar MuslimSunrise says:
    January 21st, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    PleezPonder has typically used false rhetoric to assert his points and to make it seem justified he has linked it to Ahmadiyya sources. The Ahmadiyya concept (according to my understanding) of Prophethood is that All types of Prophethood have come to an end with The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) as the Last and Final Messenger. But, no Muslim can deny that the Prophet (saw) has stated in clear Sahih (authentic) Ahadith that when ‘Isa (as) returns to earth he willbe NabiAllah (a prophet of Allah). Therefore, as we believe in Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) to be true in his claim as the advent of Sayyidna ‘Isa (as), it therefore makes complete sense that he is a prophet of Allah in that specific sense which was alluded to by the Prophet (saw) himself.

    Thus the debate, really, should not be about the finality of Prophethood, as there is no disagreement there, the debate should be on teh descent and advent of Sayyidan ‘Isa (as) and what his status is according to teh Prophet (saw) when he descends/has descended.

    Furtehrmore, the claims of sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani to prophethood is of certian very finite types – they are of ‘Dhilli’ (shadow), ‘Buruzi’ (reflection), Ummati (from the Ummah of Sayyidna Muhammad (saw)), ‘laa ta’shar’i nabi’ (non-law-bearing). These are types of Prophethood that certain other muslim groups believe that many saints and awliyaa of the Ummah have made before, such as Sayyid ‘Abdul Qadir Jilani (qaddasa Allahu sirrahu) and shaykh al-Akbar, Muhyuddin Ibn ‘Arabi (qaddasa Alahu Sirrahu).

    Thus if Sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) is to be rejected for such claims, many of the Awliyaa would also be subject to such criticisms.
    However, they are not heretecised as sayyidna Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) has been, so it is pretty clear that this is merely a case of vilification and slander, and has nothing to do with ideology or doctrine.

  10. avatar A.K.Shaikh says:
    January 21st, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    Dear, MuslimSunrise,
    In ahadith the story of Essa a.s is not a story of A man its the story of THE man, also no Prophet or humanbeing have the authority to appoint a Nabi(they can pray) this authority is with Allah only, when Prophet Mohammad said Essa will Nabi Ullah it means he made sure that he is telling about the Essa ibn Marrium who was Nabi and will Nabi, meaning not a new Nabi.
    Further koran does not speak for any kind of nabuwat koran states only nabi and nabuwat, there is no such word in koran, “”Law bearing, Zilli, Baroozi, Umati, Non-law bearing or Mujadid or Qutab etc”"” these are non koranic titles.
    The Indonesian ahmadis declared mirza Ghulam Ahamd as “Teacher” not NABI, I think they did the right thing to save themselves and if they mean teacher as Nabi then they are Hypocrites and it was done by Mirza sahib once, if you read his books you will find, otherwise check “”Majmoua Ishteharat Vol, 1 Page 313. Urdu, thnx

  11. avatar Indonesia | theworldpost.org says:
    January 21st, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    [...] These women pray earnestly for the recovery Gen. Suharto, the mass murderer and former dictator who once banned the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia. Eighty-six year old Suharto has been hospitalized for multiple organ failure since January 4th but doctors report today he is making a “miraculous recovery”, and added he should be ethnically cleansing again within week. Protesters protest. Churches are desecrated in Western Java. But the governmental department of Overseeing the Peoples’ Beliefs decided not to ban the Muslim sect of Ahmadiyya after the sect agreed to change it’s central belief. [...]

  12. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 21st, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    Muslimsunrise had to lie to counter points raised in my message. For the benefit of eaders, let me clarify further that:

    1- I have not usd false rhetoric but Sunrise has lied. Please click the link, its official Ahmediyya Jamaat’s link and the quotation I posted is from the their First Khalifa Mirz basheeruddin Mehmood who is also the son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani.

    2- Here mirza qadiani himslef saying and I quote:
    “God Almighty has disclosed to me that whoever has been apprised of my advent and does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God.”
    (The Essence Of Islam – Volume 4 – Page 87)
    Weblink to the book :
    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-4.pdf

    3- The saying of last prophet Muhammed pbuh that Muslimsunrise referred to talks about ESSA IBN MARYAM not Ghulam Ahemed qadiani Ibn Chiragh Bibi.

    4- When Quran and Ahadith say that Muhammed is the last of prophet, there is no question of any new nabi (zilli, or broozi etc) These terms were coined only to make way for false nabuwwat of Mirza Qadiani.

    5- I quote again from Mirza Qadiani’s book:

    “God named me Mary in the third volume of Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya. I was nurtured for two years as Mary and was raised in a womanly seclusion. Then, the spirit of Jesus was breathed into me just as was done with Mary. Hence, I was considered to be pregnant in a metaphorical manner. After a period of several months, not exceeding ten, I was made Jesus out of Mary by the revelation embodied in the last part of the fourth volume of Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya; and thus, I became Jesus, son of Mary. But, God did not inform me of this secret at that time.”

    Ref: is available on http://www.alislam.org/books (Kashti-i-Nuh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 50; Kashti-i-Nuh, P. 46-47)

    That’s how Mirza qadiani claimed to be Essa Ibn Maryam. Now, can you use your mind and see this man?

    6- It is another lie by Muslimsunrise that they accept Muhammed pbuh as last prophet. I repeat, its a lie that they believe in Muhammed pbuh as last prophet. If hey do that then why do they not say it officially at their website? and why do they need to call Mirza Qadiani a prophet?

    Please think about it.

  13. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 21st, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    Please not, Mirza Basheerudin Memood is their second khalifa NOT FIRST, as I wrote by mistake. Please take note. Thanks.

  14. avatar MuslimSunrise says:
    January 22nd, 2008 at 12:01 am

    I shall respond to each of the points raised by PleezPonder briefly, as I am not a fan of 3-month email correspondences about theology and religion – I’d rather talk it out face-to-face!!

    Muslimsunrise had to lie to counter points raised in my message. For the benefit of eaders, let me clarify further that:

    By the sheer Grace of Allah, I have not lied, and nor do I need to lie. I have merely explained the concept of Prophethood as I have understood it from the writings of Sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as).

    1- I have not usd false rhetoric but Sunrise has lied. Please click the link, its official Ahmediyya Jamaat’s link and the quotation I posted is from the their First Khalifa Mirz basheeruddin Mehmood who is also the son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani.

    Again, I have not lied. By ‘false rhetoric’ I was referring to the typical way in which non-Ahamdis use certain quotes out of context, something which has been typified by the person above (aka ‘PleezPonder’).

    Firstly, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad was the second, and not the first khalifa of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) – but this may be just a slip of the proverbial pen by PleezPonder!

    Secondly, and more importantly, The fact of the matter is that many traditional and classical scholars, way before Ahmadiyyat and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) have held that to deny or reject the Mahdi is Kufr and is rejection of Allah and His Messenger. One prime example of this is the great historian and Jurist Ibn Khaldun, who wrote the celebrated text ‘al-Muqaddimah’.

    He undertook an extensive study of the narrations about the Mahdi and cites traditional scholars and their opinions about those who deny the Mahdi. In book 51 of the Muqaddimah, he writes about the Fatimi (the term used to refer to the Mahdi as the Mahdi was to be of the descendants of Sayyidah Fatimah (ra) – another qualification fulfilled by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)) thus:


    Abu Bakr ibn Abi Khaythamah went excessively far, according to that which as-Suhaili transmitted from him, in his collecting the hadith which have been related concerning the Mahdi, so he said, “One of the strangest of them in isnad is that which Abu Bakr al-Iskaf mentioned in his Fawa’id al-Akhbar with an isnad to Malik ibn Anas from Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir from Jabir that he said, “The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘Whoever denies the Mahdi has become a kafir, and whoever denies the Dajjal has become a liar’.” And he said, “In The Rising of the Sun from its Place of Setting is the like of it, I think,” and this is enough for excessive behaviour, and Allah knows best about the soundness of its path to Malik ibn Anas, because Abu Bakr al-Iskaf is suspected of forgery by them (the scholars of hadith).

    So whether you follow the above hadith, or even accept what Ibn Khaldum has written, the fact is that IT IS A VALID OPINION IN ISLAM THAT TO DENY THE MAHDI ENTAILS KUFR.

    And I am of the opinion that it is this belief and the ideology which was being referred to by Sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahamd al-Qadiani (as) and Hadhrat khalifatul Masih II, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad (ra) when they stated what was quoted by PleezPonder in his previous post (above). I do not know whether the quotes are accurately pasted, but I wil give the benefit of the doubt, notwithstanding my rebuttals of his arguments in this post.

    Thus the quote which PleezPonder is referring to is consistent with the opinions of SOME, and by no means ALL of the traditional Islamic Scholars. Modernists such as PleezPonder are quick to reject such scholars, but they shall not affect the works of the ‘Ulamah as they are nothing compared to them!

    2- Here mirza qadiani himslef saying and I quote:
    “God Almighty has disclosed to me that whoever has been apprised of my advent and does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God.”
    (The Essence Of Islam – Volume 4 – Page 87)
    Weblink to the book :
    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-4.pdf

    This has been rebutted above.

    3- The saying of last prophet Muhammed pbuh that Muslimsunrise referred to talks about ESSA IBN MARYAM not Ghulam Ahemed qadiani Ibn Chiragh Bibi.

    Well, this is the main bone of contention between you and us – we believe Sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) to be the advent of Sayyidna ‘Isa (as) ibn Maryam in spirit and not in form as the latter is impossible because Allah has stated in 30 different verses of the Qur’an that ‘Isa (as) has died a natural death – and many Ahadith allude to this specifically, as well as the opinions of traditional scholars (as if the the Qur’an was not enough for you guys!!)

    For those who don’t know much about this, it might be good to pause and reassess the fact that the same way in which Sayyidna ‘Isa (as) was rejected by the Jews for being the Messiah, similarly the Muslims have rejected sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) – both groups of rejecters were waiting for bloodthirsty avengers and none came!!

    4- When Quran and Ahadith say that Muhammed is the last of prophet, there is no question of any new nabi (zilli, or broozi etc) These terms were coined only to make way for false nabuwwat of Mirza Qadiani.

    This shows your lack of islamic Knowledge – these terms are not new – they are found in many old and classical books written by classical Islamic scholars and awliyaa – the Kashful Mahjub of Sayyid ‘Ali Hujweiri, which is the oldest persian treatise on purification of the soul, mentions ‘Dhilli Nabuwwat’ – there a numerous other examples. Such books were written and such terms were used way before Sayyidna Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) was even born!!

    Lets read some books before we make outrageous comments!!

    5- I quote again from Mirza Qadiani’s book:

    “God named me Mary in the third volume of Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya. I was nurtured for two years as Mary and was raised in a womanly seclusion. Then, the spirit of Jesus was breathed into me just as was done with Mary. Hence, I was considered to be pregnant in a metaphorical manner. After a period of several months, not exceeding ten, I was made Jesus out of Mary by the revelation embodied in the last part of the fourth volume of Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya; and thus, I became Jesus, son of Mary. But, God did not inform me of this secret at that time.”

    Ref: is available on http://www.alislam.org/books (Kashti-i-Nuh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 50; Kashti-i-Nuh, P. 46-47)

    That’s how Mirza qadiani claimed to be Essa Ibn Maryam. Now, can you use your mind and see this man?

    This is one part of an explanation – I suggest people read his explanations fully and completely rather than basing his whole explanation of something on 6/7 lines!!

    6- It is another lie by Muslimsunrise that they accept Muhammed pbuh as last prophet. I repeat, its a lie that they believe in Muhammed pbuh as last prophet. If hey do that then why do they not say it officially at their website? and why do they need to call Mirza Qadiani a prophet?

    Please think about it.

    You can repeat it as many times as you like – doesn’t change the fact that I believe in the Prophet muhamamd (saw) to be the last prophet sent by allah.

    And regarding your question:

    and why do they need to call Mirza Qadiani a prophet?

    It is because we follow the Prophet (saw) as fully as possible – thus if He said ‘Isa (as) would be a Prophet – we don’t question it like you – we accept – “Sami’na wa ataa’na”.

    Wassalaamu ‘ala man ittaba’il hudaa…
    Peace be upon those who follow The Guidance.

  15. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    All those who want to know the truth about mirza ghualm qadiani / ahmedi religion, please visit http://www.ahmedi.org/forum and click general discussion. You will receicve complete refernces from Mirza qadianis own books with scanned images and English translations.

    Also, please read this excellent book by an ex-ahmediyya lady from the US. Click http://www.qarchives.com/haneef/

    I am leaving it to the readers to make their mind after reading Muslimsunrise response. One comment though, one has to be a blind follower to accept Mirza qadiani’s assertion that he was pragnent and gave birth to himself………????? because he claims to be Essa a.s, Mahdi, Lord Krishnan, Alaexander and many more….

    MuslimSunrise also agreed that they believe thaty Muhammed ios the last prophet…WHICH IS NOT THEIR OFICIAL POSITION…. Thats why he says ” I believe” not we believe. He will be kicked out of ahmadiyya jamaat unless he is allowed to spread the wrong information.

    Also, if ahmadiyya considered Muhammed pbuh, why is this a news that ahmadiyya declared mirza a teacher not nabi???

    Lastly, Muslimsunrise says he believes in finality of the ropherhood of Muhammed pbuh and at the same time, he says Mirza ghulam qadiani is a nabi?? Can you see the contrdiction??

  16. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 22nd, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    Brother Pleeezponder,

    Thank you for the information. I think we should start stoning the Ahmadiyah buildings asap. I also believe there are ‘outsiders’ trying to break up our ummah. For good measure, let us burn US flags and stone their embassy as well.

    Salam.

  17. avatar MuslimSunrise says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 12:35 am

    Mahsa’Allah…

    ‘Aluang Anak Bayang’ has given a very islamic response to the situation – the Prophet (saw) would have surely been proud of a muslim like yourself…!

    The contradictions are clear for everyone to see.

    ‘Aluang Anak Bayang’ calls for violence and stoning of people as a supposedly islamic response – If i remember correctly, the Prophet was also stoned by people from Taa’if who also claimed that the Prophet (saw) was tyring to change their way of life with ‘dangerous ideas’ – the same things is claimed by ‘Aluang Anak Bayang’ and PleezPonder who assert that we Ahmadis have dangerous ideas!!

    The contradictions are not on our side my friend.

    AlhamduliAllah, I am not being kicked out of the Ahmadiyya jama’at as asserted by PleezPonder, firstly, because I have not said anything which mirza ghulam ahmad al-qadiani (as) has not said. Secondly, just because he left the jama’at due to his obviopus lack of islamic knowledge and being able to reconcile certain in-depth and detailed concepts, doesn’t mean that we are all at his low level of comprehension.

    One clear example is when he says:

    One comment though, one has to be a blind follower to accept Mirza qadiani’s assertion that he was pragnent and gave birth to himself”¦”¦”¦?????

    If he had an ounce of traditional islamic education, he would realise that Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi, one of the greatest saints of Islam has made this very claim – and he goes further to say that, “every one of us has a jesus waiting to be born inside him” (Mathnavi, Maulana Rumi).

    Please, just gain some traditional learning and read some texts of the saints of Islam and you will find that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) was one in a long line of poeple whom Allah chose to purify himself and appointed him for the reformation of this age.

    Now that ‘Aluang’ has gone to the typical extremes of inciting violence wherever academic dialogue doesn’t work (and by the way PleezPonder, is this the Islam that you are inviting Ahmadis to? No thanks!!) I will not be taking part in dialogue with such imbeciles who have not got an ounce of ability to be able to see the contradictions in their violent ideas and then append them to Islam (‘peace and submission’!)

  18. avatar A.K.Shaikh says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 12:39 am

    MuslimSunrise,
    Please tell us what your ameer jamaat mr.basit wrote to Indonesia Gov?

  19. avatar MuslimSunrise says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 12:52 am

    A.K Shaikh,

    I have no idea as to what he ACTUALLY wrote.

    The fact is that if he stated that Mrza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (as) is a teacher – he is correct – nowhere in the article does he say that ‘he is not a prophet of any sort’.

    One of the people (by the name of Ma’ruf) stated:

    Saying that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was simply a teacher could be interpreted in various ways, worried Maruf

    And this is true. the Prophet (saw) was also a teacher, as was ‘Isa (as). And they were all Prophets!!

    Many a time, the Prophet (saw) referred to himself as a teacher. In a famous and well-known hadith the Prophet saw stated:

    “Innama bu’ith-tu mu’alliman” – ‘I have not been sent, except as a teacher’

    Where did the Prophet mention that he was a Prophet in this hadith?? nowhere – but we KNOW that he was a Prophet, and that fact does not have to be SHOUTED out LOUD at every place and in every sentence!!

    Thus, if what Mr. Basit (or whoever it is) has said something to the effect of ‘he was a teacher’ this is not incorrect – and neither is it a complete understanding of his status.

  20. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 12:54 am

    Aluang Anak Bayang

    Where does quran or islam condones the kind of behaviour that you are suggesting. Please get some knowledge about islam before making such strange statements.

    Muslimsunrise, Islam has nothing to do with such behaviors as we all know. I wonder what your intentions are?

    Similarly Islam has nothing to with Chanda (a forced monthly payment levied on each member of ahmadiyya) and more chanda against zakat, annual gathering at Qadian or London against Hajj MIRZA GHULAM QADIANI NEVER PERFORMED HAJJ, banning and declaring Jehad against quaranic commands, siding with mushrekeen and kuffar against siding with Islam. mIRZA GHULAM QADIANI PROPOSED TO BRITISH AUTHORITIES OF TME IN INDIA IN HIS BOOK TO IMPORT EUROPEAN PROSTITUTES FROM EUROPE FOR THE PLEASURE AND GOOD HEALTH OF BRITISH SOLDIeRS POSTED IN INDIA. Can a decent person have such low and cheap thought, nevermind a nabi??

  21. avatar MuslimSunrise says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 am

    My LAST LAST responses (everything you come up with as criticisms are found in traditional islam to be valid – so I really don’t have time to TEACH you things which are otherwise available through a goole search!)

    Similarly Islam has nothing to with Chanda (a forced monthly payment levied on each member of ahmadiyya) and more chanda against zakat,

    1. chanda is not forced
    2. when you join an organisation, you abide by its rules – you don’t wanna pay chanda? then don’t come and eat free food at our Jalsah and gatherings. Other Muslim communities always have a ‘fundraising’ whenever there is a project that needs funds – through chanda, the fundraising events are kept to a minimum, and in this way the electricity, gas, water and other bills of all our mosques and missions, and the hundreds of hospitals and schools in african and Asia can run free of charge, and their doctors and teachers who gave up their lives for serving humanity can be paid a small sum for the upkeep of their families (YOU KINDA MISSED OUT THAT LITTLE DETAIL!!)
    3. Chanda is SEPARATE FROM ZAKAT – because ZAKAT is only payable by those who have a certain amount of stagnant wealth over a year, and is only usable in certain situations, e.g., zakat cannot be used for food at gatherings, it is only to be used for certain important purposes, therefore a system of chanda is a good way to help run an Islamic community.

    annual gathering at Qadian or London against Hajj

    1. the majority of sufi tariqahs have a jalsah whereby the adherents of their tariqah gather for the remembrance of Allah and to increase bonds of brotherhood. This is a valid practice and is practiced by many muslim groups!! Learn your Deen!!!
    2. I have been to ‘Umrah, my parents have been to Hajj – and none of us have ever been to Qadian!!! so what you mean by ‘against hajj’ I hve no idea!!

    MIRZA GHULAM QADIANI NEVER PERFORMED HAJJ

    1. Hajj is only fardh upon a person if they meet its requisites, some of which include, financial independence to perform it and safety of passage – even you should know that!! Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-qadiani (as) often never had much food to eat, never mind being able to afford the Hajj – but moreover, the passage was not safe – you should know very well how many fatwas of kufr and ‘waajibul qatl’ were put on him and on Ahmadis, how could he have got to Makkah without being killed??!!

    banning and declaring Jehad against quaranic commands, siding with mushrekeen and kuffar against siding with Islam.

    1. Jihad has not been abolished – You OBVIOUSLY do not know much Islam – Jihad is of varying types – teh physical Jihad is the one which he stated is not permissible today – many of the traditional scholars today are of the same opinion, so on that basis we have no muslim scholars left do we??!! Jihad can only be waged if certain requisites are met – for example, you need to have an Amir (the muslims do not have one leader!), you need to have an army, nd you need to have weaponry and battle strategies – Nne of which are with the muslims today – so in effect the Jihadists of today are calling for a massive suicide mission by all the muslims!! and agaist whom?? Non-combatants??!! where is the Islami in that?
    2. He never sided with mushrikeen or the kuffar. Dr. Israr Ahmad (a famous muslim scholar in india) has reaffirmed, that at his time, Mirza ghulam ahmad (as) was THE ONLY MUSLIM SCHOLAR who was defending Islam against the Christian missionaries and hindu opponents of Islam in India!!

    mIRZA GHULAM QADIANI PROPOSED TO BRITISH AUTHORITIES OF TME IN INDIA IN HIS BOOK TO IMPORT EUROPEAN PROSTITUTES FROM EUROPE FOR THE PLEASURE AND GOOD HEALTH OF BRITISH SOLDIARS POSTED IN INDIA.

    See, now why do you have to stoop to lies???? it was all going so welll…until you started lying -ahhhh well…..

    lakum deenukum wa liya deen….

    Can a decent person have such low and cheap thought, nevermind a nabi??

    No he cannot – and that is why he never would have said such a thing without a good reason, such as the fact that british soldiers were raping and pillaging muslim women in islamic villages and therefore he may have suggested something like them to them in retorsion and with blame – not as you suggested it in your ever-slanderous tone!!

    AK Shaikh, you are well known to Ahmadis in London, and elsewhere, you really should get over it and try to just practice islam to the best of your ability – this slander and anti-rhetoric is not going to get you into jannah – if you have a difference of opinion with teh Ahmadiyya Jama’at for whatever reason, just get on with your life and try to seek Allah’s pleasure.

    This is my final comment.

    anyone whowould like to sincerely know more about the Jama’at al-Ahmadiyya al-Islamiyyah should visit http://www.alislam.org where you can read Mirza Ghulam Ahmad l-Qadiani’s (as) books from the originals, or contact me at http://muslimsunrise.wordpress.com

  22. avatar Rashid says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am

    Assalamo alaikum
    I am surprised at this change of belief system of Ahmadiyya in Indoneisa. Are they admitting that all those books written by Mirza Ghulam where he claimed that he is prophet, messenger, messiah and mahdi, Mirza Ghulam was wrong or fabricated a lie in the name of Allah? If yes then how can such a person be considered a spiritual teacher? I advice my Indonesian brothers who have accepted Mirza ghulam as a teacher, please read the original books of Mirza Ghulam, and not just the jamaat literature. Unfortunately all these books are in urdu or arabic, and Jamaat Ahmadiyya has made no attempt to translate all this stuff into English even after 100. Surely he who is a teacher and whose message is to reach all corners of the globe, as Jamaat claims, then that message (83 books) of Mirza Ghulam should have been translted into English.

  23. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 3:20 am

    Muslimsunrise

    I sympethise with you as I feel that you are a sincere person but unfortunately are completely blinded by lack of information and knowledge about ahmadiyya beliefs. Let me attempt to clarify and in case you need to continue dialogue, please feel free to write to my personal email that is pleeezing@hotmail.com. Please tell me if you are able to read URDU as almost all of mirza ghulam’s books are in URDU. I don’t want to give my meanings to anything, I want you to read things with your own eyes. I will provide you the reference and you do the reading with context. This is an honest and sincere proposal.

    Please let me know.

    I will respond to all your points here for all to see.

  24. avatar pleeezponder says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 7:39 am

    Dear Muslimsunrise,

    You OBVIOUSLY do not know much Islam – Jihad is of varying types – teh physical Jihad is the one which he stated is not permissible today

    I chose to reply on Jehad first as this is “in” these days among enemies of Islam. Ahmadiyya jamaat conciously sided with those who confuse terrorism with Jehad whereas, these two entirley separate entities. Please note that its ALLAH’S QURANIC COMMAND THAT CANNOT BE ABROGATED.

    ALLAH TALA SAYS IN QURAN:

    2:216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

    Look what Mirza ghulam Qadiani said in his ISHTEHARAT vol. 3 page 295 “From today, Jehad with sword has been stopped with God’s command.” Can anyone tell us what is source of Mirza qadiani’s attempt to abrogate Jehad against clear commands of Allah in quarn?

    The motive is given below. Mirza qadiani in his booklet in praise of Queen Victoria of Britain, wrote the following:

    Ref. Roohani Khazine, vol. 15 page 114 or pdf page 6 of 18

    Translation :

    ” The service that was carried out by me for the English Sarkar is that I arranged to print about 50,000 books, pamphlets and advertisements in this country and other Muslim countries with advice that English Government is benefactor of us Muslims therefore it is the duty of each Muslim to truly obey this Government and to remain sincerely thankful and well wisher to it.

    I wrote those books in different languages i.e. Urdu, Persian and Arabic and spread them in all Islamic countries, so much so that I had them printed in Islam’s two holy cities Makah and Medina. And had them printed in Rome, Turkey, Syrian countries, Egypt and Kabul and Afghanistan’s different cities wherever possible. As a result, hundreds of thousands of people gave up those wrong concepts of Jihad which ignorant mullahs preached them.

    I am so proud of this service that no other Muslim in British India can show a similar example. I am doing this service for the last 22 years, I am not doing any favors for my benefactor because I admit that with the advent of this blissful Government, we and our elders got rid of (a life like in) a burning steel oven. Therefore, I with my all family members raise our both hand to pray for the long life of Queen Victoria. “

    How could he boast that he abrogated hehad to please queen victoria?
    Did he write 50,00 books? Does a nbai lie? Did he write 50 books in praise of Allah?

    THINK ABOUT IT MY FRIED….NEED I SAY MORE…..

  25. avatar pleeezponder says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 9:56 am

    Dear Muslimsunrise;

    I will address the suggestion of mirza ghulam to import European hores for the pleasure of British soldiars in India.

    See, now why do you have to stoop to lies???? it was all going so welll”¦until you started lying -ahhhh well”¦..

    lakum deenukum wa liya deen”¦.

    Can a decent person have such low and cheap thought, nevermind a nabi??

    No he cannot – and that is why he never would have said such a thing without a good reason, such as the fact that british soldiers were raping and pillaging muslim women in islamic villages and therefore he may have suggested something like them to them in retorsion and with blame – not as you suggested it in your ever-slanderous tone!!

    You see, you find it unbelieveable that Mirza qadiani suggested something like that. And like any good folower, ( i will say blind follower) you don’t want to believe and trying to give it a twist. Thats why I asked you if you read URDU? So that you could read all the context ( which is equally repulseive). Its a tragedy that people who follow Mirza qadiani, don’t have access to what he actually wrote because its in URDU. Please force your khalifa Masroor to arrange the translation of all books of mirza qadiani into English and other languages spoken in Indonesia and Africa.

    Arya dharam RK 10 page 73-74 pdf 75-76 ( Please read the context too)

    http://www.alislam.org/urdu/rk/rk-10-30.pdf pdf page 75 and 76.

    Mirza qadiani says:

    ” According to my suggestion, if I European hoers are provided for European soldiers, then, firstly there will be no risk of syphilis (VD) because perhaps these no such disease exists in Europe, secondly, they will be examined by desi doctors at the time of selection like any soldier. By this, there will be no need of medical exams anymore as both the parties will be free of disease and this will be a good arrangement to satisfy the soldiers’ sexual desires without the need of law of internal examination.

    No one can deny the fact that, like in India there are prostitutes in England. Therefore, there will be no difficulty in arranging this. Rather, I am certain that European civilized prostitutes will gladly offer their services to keep the brave soldiers happy. And for the huge expenses that will incur on bringing them to and from India, the Indian citizens will feel no burden. When they pay huge amounts for military expenses, they will not disagree to pay this additional amount. Rather this will save the honor of Indian unfortunate women and brave British soldiers will stay happy and healthy. “
    Now tell me honestly, is this how a gentleman thinks? forget about “nabi”

  26. avatar pleeezponder says:
    January 24th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    Dear Readers

    As explained above, the Ahmadiyya movemnet has nothing to do with Islam, in fact its set of beliefs is all against Islam. I have given you some examples of the mentality of Mirza qadiani. His religion has two main objectives:

    1- To devide Muslims through propogation of false beliefs such as, (not believing in the fanality of holy prophet Muhammed pbuh, declaring Jehad abrogated against Allahs commands, declaring Mirza ghulam a nabi and second coming of Essa a,s, Mehdi, lord Krishnan, Alaxender and reincarnatiuon of Myuhammed pbuh.).

    2- Second major objective is to rip its members off their hard earned money all their lives.

    My fried Muslimsunrise said:

    1. chanda is not forced

    This is a completely false statement and against the teachings of Mirza qadiani, which is given at the bottom of this post. Please note that there is no concept of Chanda ( forced donation) in Islam. In Islam, mainly its zakat and Sadaqa – a volantary donation and other sadaqat like sadaqa al Fitr.

    Some of the Chandas that every memebre of Ahmadiyya has to pay are :

    CHANDA AAM; ONE SIXTEENTH of monthly wages payable per month;example say earn £1200 per month pay :£75 per month
    CHANDA JALSA SALANA:20 PERCENT OF ONE MONTHS WAGES for year : £240 year
    CHANDA TAHRIK E JADID :20 PERCENT AS ABOVE :£240
    CHANDA WAQFE JADID: 10 PER CENT :120
    SADAQA:charity according to quran as one feels they can afford not obligatory .
    ZAKAT:2:5 PER CENT SAVED MONEY AFTER YEAR :QURAN REQUIREMENT – only on saved cash ,so if you have £20,000 savings pay zakat for year .
    MTA FUND: satellite fund
    MARRIAGE FUND : money for poors marriages

    2. when you join an organisation, you abide by its rules – you don’t wanna pay chanda? then don’t come and eat free food at our Jalsah and gatherings.

    I am glad that Muslimsunrise used word “organization” while describing ahmadiyya, I appreciate his honesty and I agree with him. These kind of organization have to put up a show for its people to lure them otherwise how will they get them to pay?
    In fact all those food and other expenses at gatherings are charged separately in addition to monthly chanda that an ahmadi pays. Please see above for details.

    Can any ahmedi friend (Muslimsunrise) tell us, if CHANDA is not forced then why they calculate at a certain rate? Why these ratios have come into play? Allah tala levied only one tax and that is zakat on surplus income. Ahmadiyya levies the above additional taxes on its members to fill the coffers of Mirza qadiani’s family. Their last Khalifa Mirza Tahir died few years back, he left about 8 million sterling pounds for his daughter, can anyone tell us what was his source of income?

    Lert me give you an example from Seerat ul Mahdi, written Mirza Bashir M A, who is also son of Mirza ghulam qadiani, and I quote from “Seeratul mehdi vol. 3 , page 132″

    ” This humble self states that Hafiz Moinuddin, who died several years ago was a blind man yet very sincere person. He used to press mgaq’s feet and sometimes used to sing Punjabi poetry to mgaq. Though he was a poor yet he used to pay chanda regularly”

    Even a blind or poor man is not exampted from Chanda. I know a widow who was alwasys underpressure to pay her monthly chanda.

    Finally, lets see what Mirza ghulam himself said about chanda:

    Ref: alhukm, Vol. 7 no. 25 page 8 dated 10 July 1903. ( This official paper of Ahmadiyya jamaat)

    ” If anyone who does not make a contract to pay REGULAR chanda should be kicked out of Jamaat as he is Hypocrite and his heart is black”

    PLEAESE THINK ABOUT IT, ITS ALL MONEY MONEY MONEY AND MORE MONEY

  27. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 24th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    MuslimSunrise Says:

    January 23rd, 2008 at 12:35 am
    Mahsa’Allah”¦

    ‘Aluang Anak Bayang’ has given a very islamic response to the situation – the Prophet (saw) would have surely been proud of a muslim like yourself”¦!

    Insyallah, anyone who insult the prophet should be beheaded. We love Prophet Mohammad pbuh more than our parents, our wives, our children. We are very peaceful people but we can show our true colour when insulted.

    I am speaking on behalf of Pakistani Muslims, Indian Muslims and Arab Muslims.

    Salam.

  28. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 24th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    Aluang Anak Bayang

    I am speaking on behalf of Pakistani Muslims, Indian Muslims and Arab Muslims.

    Either you are stupid or you are a non muslim or pretnding to be a Muslim. How can you justify voilence in the name of islam?? We can take all qadianis / ahmadiyya to task through arguments and debate.

    Please stop spreading a false propaganda against Islam, you look a complete cheat to me.

  29. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 24th, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    @ Pleeezponder

    Either you are stupid or you are a non muslim or pretnding to be a Muslim. How can you justify voilence in the name of islam?? We can take all qadianis / ahmadiyya to task through arguments and debate.

    Please stop spreading a false propeganda against Islam, you look a complete cheat to me.

    You are a stupid kafir. No True Muslims will ever claim that Jihad s non-violent. Such claims are made solely by Western scholars, primarily those who study Sufism and/or work in interfaith dialogue, and by Muslim apologists who are trying to present Islam in the most innocuous manner possible.

    In hadith collections, jihad means armed action; for example, the 199 references to jihad in the most standard collection of hadith, Sahih al-Bukhari, all assume that jihad means warfare.

    If you had written this out of ignorance, Alhumdullilah your soul can still be salvaged.

    Wasalam.

  30. avatar Pleeezponder says:
    January 25th, 2008 at 12:04 am

    Aluang Anak Bayang

    We are very peaceful people but we can show our true colour when insulted.

    I am speaking on behalf of Pakistani Muslims, Indian Muslims and Arab Muslims

    No True Muslims will ever claim that Jihad s non-violent.

    In hadith collections, jihad means armed action; for example, the 199 references to jihad in the most standard collection of hadith

    your soul can still be salvaged.

    Who are you? Come out of the pretence….. This is so typical and clear cannot be by Muslims.

    You are caught here…..red handed.

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