Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Jan 25th, 2008, in News, by

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and Indonesia's relationship with Israel.

Visiting Israel

In early December of 2007 five representatives of Indonesian Islamic organisations, including Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama, travelled to Israel and met its president, Shimon Peres, their trip sponsored by the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the LibForAll Foundation.

Shimon Peres said he was very happy to receive the clerics and hoped that some Indonesians would visit the country in May 2008, to pray for peace while celebrating the 60th anniversary of Israel's foundation.

Indonesian delegation in Israel
Indonesian delegation in Israel.

Syafiq Mugni/Mughni from Muhammadiyah (East Java) said he hoped Indonesian Muslims were becoming more and more tolerant, although admitting that some still opposed democracy. Abdul A'la from NU admitted that there were still Muslim extremist groups in Indonesia.

The leaders of Muhammadiah and Nahdlatul Ulama, Din Syamsuddin and Hasyim Muzadi respectively, said they weren't aware of the visit to Israel by their members. waspada

A politician from the PDI-P, Soetardjo Soerjogoeritno (Mbah Tardjo), said he was very opposed to the visit, because Israel still occupied Palestine, and besides, Indonesia would not gain anything from Israel because Israelis were famous for being stingy. suaramerdeka

Colonialism not Islam

Later in December former Indonesian foreign minister Ali Alatas said Indonesia's support for the Palestinian struggle for independence had nothing to do with Islam.

Our support for Palestine is not because we share the same religion.

He said Indonesia's pro-Palestinian stance was purely a matter of principle, something dictated by its constitution which says that independence is the inalienable right of every nation and therefore, all forms of colonialism must be done away with.

Guided by this principle, Indonesia had actively supported other independence struggles, such as those in South Africa and Namibia, he said.

He regretted the fact that many people assumed Indonesia's support for the Palestinians was motivated by Islamic brotherhood. antara

Concern with Human Rights

On January 24th 2008, as a result of the blockade imposed by Israel on the Palestinian territories and recent Israeli military strikes within them, Andreas H Pareira, a parliament member from the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P), said Indonesia had to use its persuasive powers with the United States to get America to

force Israel not to use force in dealing with Palestine.

Pareira said Israel would only listen to the United States: antara

We can't just blame the United States, but Indonesia along with some other countries, including Muslem countries, needs to persuade the United States to act against Israel, rather than merely expressing condemnations.

From the Golkar Party, Hajriyanto Y Thohari, instead said Indonesia had to pressure the United Nations to take action against Israel. republika

How many times has Israel done this sort of thing? We all have to do something, if we have any sense of humanity.

This article in Indonesian - Konflik Israel-Palestina.


30 Comments on “Israeli Palestinian Conflict”

  1. avatar Lairedion says:

    I’m not quite sure what to think of this visit.

    Libforall is a foundation promoting the culture of liberty and tolerance worldwide. A noble cause but liberty and tolerance are two things alien to the Zionist ideology of occupation, expansion and suppression exercised by subsequent Israeli governments.

    Shimon Peres said he was very happy to receive the clerics and hoped that some Indonesians would visit the country in May 2008, to pray for peace while celebrating the 60th anniversary of Israel’s foundation.

    I hope the Indonesian clerics took the opportunity to tell Shimon Peres that Israel must withdraw back to the boundaries of before the 1967 Six Day War and share Jeruzalem as a twin capital for both Israel and the future Palestinian state if it wants to have peace. Otherwise their visit is quite a waste of time and will only raise doubts about their credentials.

    Syafiq Mugni/Mughni from Muhammadiyah (East Java) said he hoped Indonesian Muslims were becoming more and more tolerant, although admitting that some still opposed democracy. Abdul A’la from NU admitted that there were still Muslim extremist groups in Indonesia.

    This is a problem Indonesia must take care off themselves. A peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians won’t solve this problem automatically.

    Indonesia would not gain anything from Israel because Israelis were famous for being stingy

    Another fine example of the intelligence level of Indonesian politicians!

    Guided by this principle, Indonesia had actively supported other independence struggles, such as those in South Africa and Namibia, he said.

    Pak Ali forgot to mention East Timor…

    Again I very much doubt this visit is a benefit to the poor Palestinian people who are suffering. Nobody (including the West, the Arab world) seem to care about them. On top of that Fatah and Hamas are fighting each other while suicide terrorists think they can achieve their goals by blowing up innocent people.

    The future remains bleak…….

  2. avatar Janma says:

    so if indonesia’s reasoning says they support palestine because they see israel as a colonial power occupying a country that doesn’t belong to them, what about papua? Different!?

  3. avatar e maxwell says:

    I know I had already asked this question:

    –Lastly, I know you have expressed hope that the genuine liberals would win out over the radicals, but somehow genuine moderates never do seem to have real infleunce. I suppose Abdurrahman Wahid is a case in point. I know we was once the leader of the huge NU organization, but there seems to be little evidence of his lasting infleuce. I mean, how many muslims in ambon or Polo or Sumatra have ever trully taken his message to heart regarding tolerance and respect for the jews and christians? And then there is the whole thing with his encouraging support, sympathy and respect for israel. Obviously that did not go over real well as Indoensia still does not recognize israel; they say out of solidarity with palestinians but they really mean becaus ejews are sons of apes and pigs. Are there really any muslims at all who took his message of respect for israel and the jews to heart, particularly in East Java or Kalimantan where he supposedly still has a relatively high influence? I mean, in manado and ambon there are christians who are unabasgedly pro-israel; maybe muslims are all to mind warped, even in *moderate* indonesia, to think for themselves.–

    But I suppose this would be an opportune time to make it public. Obviously, there are many indonesians, not even necessarily limited to muslims, who want to take pride in their nation’s culture of tolerance. But then why when Wahid tried to reach out to and encourage respect for israel does it seem like his message resonated with so few, muslim or not muslim, in indonesia. It seems the likes of Jafar Umar Thalib, Imam Samudra and Abu Bakar Bashir, never mind that the last one is a Yemeni who God knows why is even considered “Indonesian” at all, resonate more with the Indonesian masses then does Wahid’s message of tolerance for other religions and respect for the west and israel.

    Of ocurse, I could be wrong. Maybe Wahid is not completely alone among muslims there in his belief in tolerance and respect for christians, westerners, jews and israel- and this is not to be confused of course, with agreeing with all of israel’s actions in the middle east, after all, nobody can ever honestly say they agree with every decision their country makes. Maybe he does have an increasing number of followers among muslims, particularly in East Java and Kalimantan where most of his poltical supporters are I believe, who would actually concur with his views on Christianity, America, Hindus, Women’s Rights, Israel and the Jews. Maybe, just maybe, there are actually more Indonesians who agree with him than with Thalib, Samudra or Bashir, but are ultimately afriad of being public with the views the way jiahidis are due to retibution and violent backlash from Islamists supported by the Middle East. If anyone living in Indonesia could concur and show for sure this is true, I would love to see it; an Indonesia heading down the same path as Pakistan, Malaysia and Bangladesh, after all, spells deep trouble for the whole world, and of course SE Asia most of all.

    That’s what one would hope if one were to believe indonesia has potential to avoid becoming like Pakistan, Iran, Bangladesh or even neighboring Malaysia. That last one, of course, was once tolerant like Indonesia was but is now so hopelessly arabized it’s just pitiful-arabs do all their thinking for them, every muslim has either an arab first name or an arab surname or both, and they’re ridiculously unproductive next to the Hindus and CHinese.

  4. avatar Cukurungan says:

    what about papua? Different!?

    At least there was a signed document that our present in Papua Land because the papuan wish so however can you show to us whether there was any invitation letter from Aboriginal and Red Indian tribes invited the Anglo bule to come on their land.

  5. avatar AndrewJ says:

    Cukurungan Says: “there was a signed document” … “the papuan wish”

    Show us that signed document. You should learn about Indonesia’s history before repeating the silly American newspapers. The ‘Act of Free Choice’ was a staged event organised by General Sarwo Edhie Wibowo. And the 1962 “New York Agreement” was created for the benefit of Freeport Sulphur (Freeport McMoRan). The region was traded as a colony, and it is still a colony because there has never been any act of self determination.

  6. avatar Sputjam says:

    In my opinion, only solution for the crisis is to merge the states of israel with palestine. That will solve the right-to-return issue, the capital at jerusalem, more land for jews etc.This solution can only work if both sides can forgive and forget for past misdeeds, and work towards the future with trust and new beginnings.

  7. avatar Lairedion says:

    @e maxwell

    Your comment sounds reasonable. Every human being with common sense is looking for sympathy, respect and tolerance. You want Israel, Jews, the West, Christians to be respected by Muslims.

    Let Israel starts to respect the Palestinian people first. No I’m not talking about Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or suicide terrorists, just the average Palestinian citizen. Struggling to make a life and longing for peace, humanity, justice and an own state. I’m sure Israel and the Jews will be rewarded with respect not only by Indonesian Muslims but by a lot of people worldwide. You can forget about the radical Islamists. They want Israel to wiped from the map and are not interested in peace in the Middle East, respect, tolerance etc.

    Peace and respect bro’ (from a non-Muslim)

    P.S. Abu Bakar Bashir is a lunatic with dangerous ideas but he is entitled to be considered an Indonesian of Hadhrami Arab and Javanese descent.

  8. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Lairedion said

    Again I very much doubt this visit is a benefit to the poor Palestinian people who are suffering. Nobody (including the West, the Arab world) seem to care about them.

    This is because neither the West nor the Arab (read: Muslim) world would benefit from a lasting solution of the conflict. Look at it as a ‘cockfight’. As long as the cocks are pecking at each other the wheeling and dealing goes on and everybody stays focused. After 60 years of bickering there are too many vested interests to give up the status quo. And in the end, nobody gives a sh*t about the roosters.

    @AndrewJ
    Don’t pay attention to Cukurungan. As the leader of the anti-bule league he has a go at every opportunity to expectorate.

  9. avatar Jamis says:

    @Lairedion

    I have to make one correction:

    “Abu Bakar Bashir…..is entitled to be considered an Indonesian of Hadhrami Arab and Javanese descent”

    That is actually incorrect, he is a half Orc half golum from middle earth who has the right to be considered a retard.

  10. avatar Lairedion says:

    jamies said:

    That is actually incorrect, he is a half Orc half golum from middle earth who has the right to be considered a retard.

    Agree. This description is in my opninion also accurate.:lol:

  11. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Why Let Israel starts to respect the Palestinian people first and not the other way round?

    If you may recall between Palestinian and Jews which emerge first in the ME back to 1 AD and earlier.

    Hardliners imparting their religious knowledge to educated interlectual idiots that becomes terrorist is half orc and half golum..ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.

  12. avatar Lairedion says:

    @dragonwall

    The current situation is that Israelis have their own state, occupying the West Bank and denying the average Palestines their human rights. What’s 1 AD got to do with it?

  13. avatar Cukurungan says:

    The region was traded as a colony, and it is still a colony because there has never been any act of self determination.

    It is the same like American and Australian Land until today there are no also self determination by The Aborinal and Red Indian Tribes.

  14. avatar AndrewJ says:

    It is the same like American and Australian Land until today there are no also self determination by The Aborinal and Red Indian Tribes.

    No The British colonies in America and Australia in the 18th century were not members of the United Nations.

    Indonesia and the United States in 1962 were members of the United Nations & had voted to support UN Resolutions 1514 and 1541. The “New York Agreement” was illegal; and Kennedy unwittingly produced it for the benefit of the Freeport Sulphur company.

  15. avatar Dragonwall says:

    What’s 1 AD got to do with it?

    Since the 7 days war, the Israelis had talks with the Palestinians to compromise etc etc. Until the Hamas and Fathilahs started to do suicide bombings and attacks when retaliation had to be taken. Then the ding dong process has been going on endlessly.

    Tell me please since 1 AD who sits on the Israeli soil first? Australia did not belong to the English, but it is today a commonwealth country. so is many other countries in the world. Like in Africa, even Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia.

  16. avatar Cukurungan says:

    No The British colonies in America and Australia in the 18th century were not members of the United Nations.

    Is the United Nations greater than God? The United Nations is only a man made Institution created to maintain status quo of the privilege WWII winner countries in the cost of injustice other weaker country.

    If other people and nation can deny God and His Rule without apology why we have to follow the manmade rule strictly, we will fully follow the manmade rule if it is beneficial for our interest otherwise we will do whatever we can do.

  17. avatar Lairedion says:

    Hi dragonwall, you said:

    Tell me please since 1 AD who sits on the Israeli soil first?

    Palestinians of the Jewish faith.

    Greek sources in 5 BCE mention Palaistina for the first time. The name is derived from the Philistines, a non-Semitic tribe with traces to ancient Greece, who lived around and near present-day Gaza strip. The Philistines are not the forefathers of modern Palestinians, merged with the local population and lost their separate identity. The Romans merged the provinces of Judea, Galilee, Samaria and Idumea into one province called Palaestina after Jewish rebellions in 1 and 2 CE. The area has been known as Palestina ever since up until the foundation of Israël in 1948 and has been inhabited by Palestinian Jews, Christians, Druzes and Muslims for centuries.

    There are in fact Israeli citizens and Jews who describe themselves as Palestinian Jews, such as Uri Davis. Uri Davis even wrote books with obvious titles like Israel: An Apartheid State (1987), Apartheid Israel: A Critical Reading of the Draft Permanent Agreement, known as the “Geneva Accords” (2003) and Apartheid Israel: Possibilities for the Struggle Within (2004).

    Australia did not belong to the English, but it is today a commonwealth country. so is many other countries in the world. Like in Africa, even Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia.

    I do not see how these countries can be compared with Israel/Palestine.

    But then Australia is a commonwealth by itself and also a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, like Malaysia and Singapore and a number of African countries with British colonial history with the exception of Mozambique. From which commonwealth is Indonesia member of? Please explain.

    Salam, Lairedion

  18. avatar Dragonwall says:

    It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The Palestinian National Charter adopted by the PLO states this fact in the first article (See the covenant)

    It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The Palestinian National Charter adopted by the PLO states this fact in the first article (See the covenant)

    The area called Palestine included the territories of present day Israel and Jordan. Under Lausanne agreement of 1923 Turkey transferred all claims to Palestine to mandatory power Britain. In 1922 Britain allocated nearly 80% of Palestine to Transjordan. In 1947 UN partitioned this remaining land into two states, a second Arab state, Palestine, and Israel. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion. The Arabs in the area began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. Virtually all the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the West Bank of Jordan River have complete autonomy under the rule of the Palestinian Authority.

    See: The History and Meaning of “Palestine” and “Palestinians”

    For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem (1948-1967), they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

    In the Jewish Bible, Jerusalem is mentioned over 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, sometimes the Land of Israel) 154 times, or 823 times. The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times and Zion 7 times. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. Jerusalem is also not mentioned in the Palestinian Covenant.

    King David established the city of Jerusalem as the capital of the whole Land of Israel. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. Jerusalem remained under Turkish Ottoman Empire rule from 1517 to 1917, and under British rule from 1917 to 1948.

    __________________________

    I did not say Indonesia is part of the commonwealth, see the fulstop.

    So they are Jews, right! Most Israelis are Jews. Then Israeli were also part of the Jews heritage.

    What I would like to know is that Israelis comprise of mostly Jews or Yehudis and whereas Palestinians are mostly Islamic or moslems. They may have been occupying the place called Gaza Strips which does not belongs to the Palestinians and Jews. The were like gypsies who had move to that area at xyz time and settled there so they are yehudis.
    Palestina Palestinians was like Irag who became greedy causing the desrt storm to erupt. Saddam hussein tries to be like Hitler also wanted Iran but was push out.

    So what right have the Palestinians to say that they have the right to live and not the Yehudis. Each have their own version of their stories to stake their claims.

    Malaysia also make stakes on claims on the Spratly Islands, so is Indonesia, Vietnam and Japan too. All because there is oil. See if it is only barren land, I am sure the US will stake that claim and build a military base.

    If the Palestinians were contended with the compromise then there will be no war. But it is always the devil in oneself who tends to be greedy and that’s the main cause. The bottomline is that they have been there for centuries or decades. You want me to go!
    Then they will say FU. Then start the war again.

    Just imagine Arafat who married a little, is he becoming of a grandfather or pedophile.

    _______________________

    One more thing I forgot. Go read something written about Israelis by Charles Krauthammer at http://www.science.co.il/israeli-history.asp

    The Israelis have continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

    ________________________

    No point of a person seeing what he wants to see than to know what he should know.

  19. avatar Masindi says:

    Papua and East Timor were colonized by Indonesians from Java.

  20. avatar Lairedion says:

    Hello drakenmuur…

    Mohammed never came to Jerusalem

    Don’t know about that since I’m not a Muslim but this comment expose you as anti-Muslim. At least I know your credentials now.

    So what right have the Palestinians to say that they have the right to live and not the Yehudis. Each have their own version of their stories to stake their claims.

    You’re right, they don’t. I think both groups have equal rights and that’s not the case today.

    But dragonwall we won’t agree on this one. You are a staunch supporter of Israël which is your choice and I don’t have a problem with that. I do not choose sides in this poisonous conflict. You challenged me with this question:

    Tell me please since 1 AD who sits on the Israeli soil first?

    I found this question fairly irrelevant but I wanted to be a good sport so I tried to answer this question. You obviously disagree and that’s ok but I won’t get trapped in your pro-Israël point of view.

    As a neutral observer I only see that the people on the West Bank and Gaza are not done justice and they have equal rights as anybody. Too bad the Zionists with their Christian allies of the US and Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups with the Arab world behind them are more than happy to keep this conflict going. It’s not in the benefit of both sets of groups.

    As I said in my first comment:

    Again I very much doubt this visit is a benefit to the poor Palestinian people who are suffering. Nobody (including the West, the Arab world) seem to care about them. On top of that Fatah and Hamas are fighting each other while suicide terrorists think they can achieve their goals by blowing up innocent people.

    The future remains bleak”¦”¦

    Peace/Shalom/Wassalam…

  21. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Dear Liardion, calling who drakenmuur?

    Now your stressed that much about the conflicts without knowing the history of their past to be concise.

    I am merely bringing forward excerpts from historian who championed their history dated as far back to 3300 BCE. If you notice the is this ‘See Covenant’ and the person I quote with his website.

    It was written crisp clear, so don’t put words in my mouth because I didn’t say that. And for this you are saying that I am an anti-Islam?

    Can you show me which verse in my comment that says that I am pro israelis and anti Islam.

    I like to agree that there are many people suffering because of the war! But who started it?

    Let me give you an example: If you rob a bank, you expect to be shot. That’s it.

    The same thing with human rights, if you deprive others of their rights then obvious others will do the same in reciprocity. So if you are not that good in history or, like what you said you are not Muslim, then it is best you are able to back up what you are commenting otherwise, what will you be made to look like? I am sure you know the answers and one more thing. Calling names is not going to make you a better comentator. Because you first commented then you say you are an observer then you say you only know there is sufferings. Does that make any manure sense? As when I observe you comment you only want to see what you want to see but not want to know what you should know.

    If you know well about politics, then you should know that war means money to them pro and con.

  22. avatar Ignorant Aussie says:

    Israeli’s are not “expansionist” as stated above, they have happily given up land in the past in return for peace. They would do the same thing with the Palestinians, if only the Palestinians would recognise their right to exist, in other words, offer them peace.

    Having said that, I think Israel is not going about bringing peace in the right way, and their current hardline government and policies is doing nobody any good.

    It is good to see some good will from Indonesia to Israel, as Indonesia potentially holds a significant place in this coming century, as the largest, and most moderate Islamic state.

  23. avatar Lairedion says:

    @dragonwall

    drakenmuur was just a literally Dutch translation of your nickname. My apologies, I didn’t know you are so sensitive about it. You can call me whatever you want, I couldn’t care less.

    In all my comments I have tried to focus on the current situation and never denied the right of Israël. You reacted on my comment and challenged me with remarks and questions about the history of the Levant.

    If you may recall between Palestinian and Jews which emerge first in the ME back to 1 AD and earlier.

    Tell me please since 1 AD who sits on the Israeli soil first?

    I find it irrelevant but I tried to answer these with information widely available in history books and on the internet. If it is the truth? I don’t know. You’re right, I’m not an expert on history.

    I know the Arabs started to wage war against Israël but now both groups are in a hopeless situation. The question of who started first is not important anymore. Arabs will have to accept Israël as a sovereign state and Israël will have to accept the Palestinians must be done justice and treated equally and a Palestinian state is inevitable. Israël is starting to realize this now.

    Reconciliation is much needed. Draw back to the boundaries of before the 1967 Six-Day War (not seven days) could be one option. Sputjam’s idea of merging the two states into one is another one.

    Peace/Shalom/Wassalam/Salam

  24. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Dragonwall said

    Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

    Yes, he did. On a winged donkey called Buraq (see Qur’an 17:1)

    Muslim:C75B1N309 “The Messenger said: ‘I was brought on al-Buraq, an animal white and long. I mounted it and came to the Temple in Jerusalem. I tethered it to the ring used by the prophets and entered the mosque, praying two rak’ahs in it. Then I came out [of the nonexistent building] and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and one of milk. I chose the milk, and he said: “You have chosen the natural thing,” and took me to heaven.'”

  25. avatar Dragonwall says:

    I suppose it is more coming to term like “the Arabs start wagin war against the Israelis” and I am not too sure but that was written in history that say Mohamed never came to Jerusalem, I am not going into too much details arguing about this when when Mohamed came about into the picture about 500AD and that he was brought to heaven by Gabriel?

  26. avatar ghoyim genit says:

    I think we ( good christians) must be on the behalf of Israel, because they are the chosen people. Bad christians ( like priest Michael Sabbach) or George Habbash of PFLP are the sinners, because they are against God (on Arabs’ side)!

  27. avatar Arie Brand says:

    18. Dragonwall Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 4:42 am

    A post by Dragonwall starts as follows:

    “It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The Palestinian National Charter adopted by the PLO states this fact in the first article (See the covenant)”

    Dragonwall took this paragraph literally (without any acknowledgment or quotation marks) from a propagandist Zionist website that has the innocuous title “Israel Science and Technology”.

    I am absolutely amazed to see this Zionist propaganda on an Indonesian website and even more so by the reference to Krauthammer – a Zionist shill if ever there was one and in addition and, directly related to it, a neo-con and war monger (he was all for the invasion of Iraq and now agitates for war against Iran).

    But let me deal with your (that is the Zionist website’s) assertions. To say that “ only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created” is as offensive to Palestinians as it would be for Indonesians to be told that the “‘myth of an Indonesian nation was created and marketed” only about three hundred years after the Dutch settled on these islands.

    Dragonwall (that is the Zionist website) says:

    “Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians”

    Oh, is that so?

    Firstly, who are “the Jews”?

    Here is one recent answer given by the Israeli human rights campaigner Uri Avinery in an article “The Lion and the Gazelle” (see http://www.tonykaron.com):

    “The puzzle that is occupying the historians is: how did a tiny community of Babylonian exiles turn into a worldwide Diaspora of millions? There is only one convincing answer to that: conversion.

    The modern Jewish myth has it that almost all the Jews are descendents of the Jewish community that lived in Palestine 2000 years ago and was driven out by the Romans in the year 70 AD. That is, of course, baseless. The “Expulsion from the Country” is a religious myth: God was angry with the Jews because of their sins and exiled them from His country. But the Romans were not in the habit of moving populations, and there is clear evidence that a great part of the Jewish population in the country remained here after the Zealots’ Revolt and after the Bar-Kochba uprising, and that most Jews lived outside the country long before that.

    At the time of the Second Temple and later, Judaism was a proselytizing religion par excellence. During the first centuries AD it fiercely competed with Christianity. While the slaves and other downtrodden people in the Roman Empire were more attracted to the Christian religion, with its moving human story, the upper classes tended towards Judaism. Throughout the Empire, large numbers adopted the Jewish religion.
    Especially puzzling is the origin of “Ashkenazi” Jewry. At the end of the first millennium there appeared in Europe – apparently out of nowhere – a very large Jewish population, the existence of which was not documented before. Where did they come from?

    There are several theories about that. The conventional one holds that the Jews wandered from the Mediterranean area to the North, settled in the Rhein valley and fled from the pogroms there to Poland, at the time the most liberal country in Europe. From there they dispersed into Russia and Ukraine, taking with them a German dialect that became Yiddish. The Tel Aviv University scholar Paul Wexler asserts, on the other hand, that Yiddish was originally not a German but a Slavic language. A large part of Ashkenazi Jewry, according to this theory, are descendents of the Sorbs, a Slavic people that lived in Eastern Germany and was forced to abandon its ancient pagan creed. Many of them preferred to become Jews, rather than Christians.
    In a recent book with the provocative title “When and How the Jewish People was Invented”, the Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues – like Arthur Koestler and others before him – that most of the Ashkenazi Jews are really descended from the Khazars, a Turkic people that created a large kingdom in what is now South Russia more than a thousand years ago. The Khazar king converted to Judaism, and according to this theory the Jews of Eastern Europe are mostly the descendants of Khazar converts. Sand also believes that most Sephardi Jews are descendents of Arab and Berber tribes in North Africa that had converted to Judaism instead of becoming Muslims, and had joined in the Muslim conquest of Spain.

    When Jewry stopped proselytizing, the Jews became a closed, ethnic-religious community (as the Talmud says: “Converts are hard for Israel like a skin disease”).”

    I will have to say more about Dragonwall’s second hand propaganda (borrowed from a Zionist website) but this is enough for one post.

  28. avatar Sanga says:

    The only simple solution to this decade(s) year problem is that the
    israelis and palestinians need to decide that peace is better than
    endless strife. If israelis n palestinians have decided that they want peace, then they
    have to do whatever it takes to achieve peace. it means compromise on
    both sides.What is the point of fighting for something so deeply whe the problem can be taken into safe hands and can be solved? maby it may sound like its easier said then done, but then there is a truth to it as well.

  29. avatar Lanang says:

    I think we ( good christians) must be on the behalf of Israel, because they are the chosen people. Bad christians ( like priest Michael Sabbach) or George Habbash of PFLP are the sinners, because they are against God (on Arabs’ side)!

    Bullshit. You’re referring to rightists, bunch of Illuminati-wannabes and conservative douche bags, people exploiting religions to gloss over their own deep-seated inferiority complex.
    The so-called chosen land is mentioned in the Old Testament — before Christ, not the New Testament.

  30. avatar Drieden says:

    Dragonwall i think all your comment gave us clues you already mean to discredit the moslem from the start, this is a matter of conversation about peace. All i have seen that all you did was just propaganda and make it all worst…

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