Poor People

December 14th, 2007, in Opinion, by iamisaid

Indonesians don’t care enough about the poor, says Iamisaid.

Nonchalant attitude towards the poor and suffering.

Wherever in Indonesia, whatever time it is day or night, the sight of undernourished children, the handicapped, the elderly, the hungry, the homeless, that and more pathetic scenes of Indonesians, lonely and suffering, is met along the five-foot walkways.

Has this daily spectacle benumbed the mind and senses and in turn has it made Indonesia to be nonchalant towards the sufferings of the less fortunate?

A saintly person once said this,

I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it.

Or is it that the situation has become so overwhelmingly fearful that by giving a loaf of bread or 500 Rupiahs to a beggar, it would bring a curse upon oneself and *POOOFF! one would be reduced to being a beggar too?

Anti-Begging Laws

The apathy on the other hand has included draconian measures. Prison sentences for beggars caught in the act of receiving alms and a fine imposed on the benefactor who is caught giving alms - and what is the reason given by the Authorities? They claim that it is done in order to improve the image of the town. For the Authorities, the town image takes precedence over the need to implement solutions to those living in dire conditions - homeless, hungry, in poor health or physically handicapped.

Even as I write this, there are those notwithstanding their lack of compassion, who approve the enactment of that law. These people would go insane if they had to live the life of the less fortunate for more than a day.

One thing that is sure, the enactment of laws and the imposition of penalties would serve to improve the image of the Officials’ personal bank account! One does not have to be a rocket scientist to know how they do it.

An elderly beggar with an swollen left foot being ignored.

I have been told that there are syndicates who prey on the daily collections of these unfortunate people. This is the rationale and one of several reasons given why there is the need to impose draconian measures to remove the existence of beggars at public places as though by getting rid of the beggars it would do likewise to the syndicates. It is like sweeping stuff under the carpet.

Helping the Poor

Simplistic as this suggestion might appear to be, is it not possible for those who have the means such as, the people who earn a “decent” salary, the people who run businesses of their own, the larger size Companies, the multi national Companies to make a monthly contribution for such a worthy humane cause?

Each contributes according to their capability, towards providing in an organised and transparent way, for basic essentials such as food, clothes, shelter and health care for the destitute. If every town in Indonesia were to do this, it would be a win-win all round. Perhaps this suggestion is utopian for prevalent conditions in Indonesia. However, elsewhere around the world there are others who have succeeded using this method.

What are the possibilities to establish centers that provide teaching of skills particularly for Indonesian youth? Even to the extent in establishing cottage-like industry to produce indigenous items for sales or export. The profits made gets to pay for at least minimum salaries, etc., etc., Better that than endless whining.

Are Indonesians incapable of rising above themselves, to collectively put their energies for such self sustaining solutions instead of being laid back and nonchalant?

Indonesia’s show of “people power” as it was seen whenever it occurred, proves that Indonesians are not timid when they need to collectively impose their will.

A maimed man begging for his next meal.

Avoiding the Poor

Here is a true incident. It should not to be taken as being rare . I do not consider it being a rare incident going by the countless occasions that I have witnessed the following.

People who turn their faces away to look in the opposite direction, thereby avoiding eye to eye contact with the less fortunate. Have you not noticed people who veer themselves clear and far away from a beggar as though the beggar is an embodiment of some dreadful pestilence in their path?

A Poor Family

It was close to midnight at Bengkulu, South West Sumatra, when discussions ended among four University Professors and I. I was hungry. I had skipped lunch in Jakarta that day and the preparations for the discussion and the actual discussion caused me to miss my dinner.

The hotel receptionist told me where I could get a meal outside. I was glad that it was a stone’s throw from the Hotel.

As I made my way out of the Hotel I found a woman seated by the wayside while she cradled an infant. She was not seated because she had to breast feed the infant. Two girls sat beside her, probably her daughters. I thought it was odd that they were seated on the grass, alongside a dimly lit road. It was quiet and the road was not busy with commuters. If the woman were seeking for alms, the main road in town would have been a better choice.

I stopped and gave the woman some money then continued to head towards the food warung.

As I sat at the warung for food to be served, my thoughts went back to woman and the three children.

I stepped out of the shop to see if they were still there. Yes, the silhouette of their bodies confirmed it. I made a brisk walk back to the woman and asked, “Ibu, anak anak sudah makan kah?” I repeated the question and this time she shook her head that meant they had not eaten. I said to the woman, “Permisi Ibu, biar anak ikut saya untuk beli makanan”. She nodded her head in agreement.

“Ikut ya”¦.” I said reassuringly to the girl as we walked towards the warung. I requested the cook to prepare three packets of whatever the girl desired. The girl hurried back to her mother with the three packets of food.

Compassion

While all this was happening, two Professors spotted me at the warung as they passed by in their car. They joined me while I ate and had small conversation with them.

I asked if they had seen the woman and her three children when they left the Hotel.

They gave me a most heartless reply. They said that the woman was putting on an act. “They do that all the time”, declared one of the Professors.

I did not wish to start an argument as it was late and I was tired.

So what if the woman was putting on an act? I said to myself and analysed further. She had three children, out in the open, on a lonely roadside, in the dark, late at night and hungry. Which woman would want to do that? As though that woman is blessed with better options in her miserable condition?

Moments before the Professors and I parted, I could not contain myself as I put this terse question to them, “What would you have done if the woman seated out there with three children, was your mother?”

May I conclude my article by quoting the Dalai Lama:

“If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.”

Tags: Bengkulu, Children, Hotel, Poverty, South Sumatra, Stories, Warung

52 Comments on “Poor People”

Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 7:24 am
Friend,

I think this is not about compassion. It’s about economics. Per capita GDP too low, Friend. Need more economic growth with a job-generating pattern, Friend. Talking about ‘compassion’ and ‘concern for the poor’ is just wishful thinking and the kind of argument the Catholic Church used in the 14th century.

I think you need to study the Pancasila. Oke ?
Mr. TicTacToe Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 7:30 am
now i have a story about beggars too.

I manage a small company which need “uang receh” in daily basis. So i made an agreement with some of beggars i knew from my activist years, to supply me with “uang receh”.

Each person give me 100k-200k/day!
while the minimum wage at my area is around 600k-700k.

Out of curiousity, i asked one of them: “Pak blegin, ini tiap hari uangnya sendiri atau patungan?” translation:”is this your own income or several people’s income?”
The answer was it was his own.

I guess not all beggars have at least 4 times income than my hard working employees, but you get the picture.

Its a big big dillema, to give or not to give. By giving we might encourage new beggars, but what if some of them are not as lucky as pak blegin? if so, how to differentiate them?
Cukurungan Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Achmad Sudarsono Said:

Friend,
I think this is not about compassion. It’s about economics. Per capita GDP too low, Friend. Need more economic growth with a job-generating pattern.

me :

You must be kidding friend our GDP low is yes…but you can see how many our muslim brother could take Hajj and umroh even more than 7 times while in theirs next doors so many our muslim brother even haven’t enough food on the table….ironically in the same time, in Quran God ordered muslim to take care and feed the poor and orphan 27 times and ask muslim to do regular charity 67 times but only talked about Hajj 2 times.

However, our reality life talked otherwise, Indonesia muslim more concern about theirs Hajj title rather than take care the poor and orphan.

Btw, I believe that encouragement Polygamies marriage for the rich would contribute GDP growth at least by 5% and it would create a new job opportunity for our countrywomen.
Anov Mailoa Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 9:28 am
AFAIK, all religion in Indonesia teach their follower to care about the poor. As a christian, at least until now, I’ve seen that churches are able to maintain their member of congregation above the poverty line. One thing that I still hope to see is that churches broaden this action out of their congregation. But, I think everyone aggree with me that this is an almost impossible thing to happen in Indonesia, since the hardest rejection comes from outside. Church’s charity events are often accused as acts of christianization.

I believe that if all religious institution in this country could influence the follower to give more concern to the poor, we don’t have to see a lot of beggars in every corner of our big cities.

Let’s dream… and hope we could make it happen…
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 10:07 am
Hi Achmad Sudarsono,

You said: “I think this is not about compassion…………..Talking about ‘compassion’ and ‘concern for the poor’ is just wishful thinking”

The answer : “Remember your humanity and forget the rest” (Albert Einstein)
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Hi Cukurangan,

You said: “Btw, I believe that encouragement Polygamies marriage for the rich would contribute GDP growth at least by 5% and it would create a new job opportunity for our countrywomen.”

I say : The GDP sure as hell would as in Great Disaster Promised.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Guys,

Start living in reality.

Compassion, as in charity, is icing on the cake. And certainly, political pressure to end poverty helps to shape government policy. One example was in 2006 when there was an uproar because economic growth wasn’t creating jobs. Let’s say that again: economic growth wasn’t creating jobs.

Such political pressure is partly compassion. It’s partly democracy, as the poor have a stake in the system.

But thinking that poverty can be solved if only, if only we were all nicer to each other pure wishful thinking. When was the last time the World Bank’s anti poverty strategy was, “let’s all be nice to each other.” How about the government of India, China, and Indonesia.

Funny, I can’t remember Boediono standing before parliament and saying, “let’s ditch economic policy and all just practice compassion.”

As for Einstein, an economist he wasn’t. With all due respect to Herr Einstein, he had his head in the stars.

Let’s keep a warm heart and cool head. Now that’s real compassion.
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Hi Mr. Tic Tac Toe,

You said: “Its a big big dillema, to give or not to give. By giving we might encourage new beggars, but what if some of them are not as lucky as pak blegin? if so, how to differentiate them?”

My comment: Decicions, decisions, decisions which most of us find it dreadful. Giving alms would not drive a compassionate person to bankruptcy. It is given according to one’s affordability.

Who to give?, when to give?, how to give?, why give? Give or not to give? - to each his own. I reckon that a person who regularly helps others would have found his answers for those questions.
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Achmad Sudarsono,

“I can’t remember Boediono standing before parliament and saying, “let’s ditch economic policy and all just practice compassion.””

Precisely, and had Boediono said that warmly and cooly before Parliament, Indonesia most certainly would fare better.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 11:12 am
IamIsaid,

Poor = lack of access to income. It’s an economic question. You haven’t discussed economic issues at all. You’ve just said, over and over again, we need more compassion. That message is good and fine, but it fits mostly into the spiritual sphere. It’s a message for Jumatan and Friday prayers.

If you’re really compassionate, you’re interested in reality and outcomes, not just words. We’ve all had enough of words in the last 10 years of Reformasi. Now we need results. And yes, we need compassion, but it’s not enough. At all, by a long way.

Tibet’s been full of monks preaching compassion for about 1,000 years and it’s one of the poorest regions in Asia.
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Achmad Sudarsono,

Me?

I am an Economist. London School of Economics, (1963).

It is not poor as in poor that this article is all about.

Economics does not by itself solve poverty. Take a look at the developed nations. Are their comparatively better managed economies spared from this spectacle of human suffering?

If it does work out well in any of those developed countries, it is because there are humans WITH a conscience. Who cares if it stems from religiously motivates or not?

Tibet? Poor? That depends how it is evaluated. When everyone is poor in a given confine - they do not know what the opposite is.
I have been to Nepal. The the standard of living is cheap in Nepal. The natives are warm and cool. They have food, clothing, shelter and the basics.
Cukurungan Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
iamisaid Said:

I have been to Nepal. The the standard of living is cheap in Nepal. The natives are warm and cool. They have food, clothing, shelter and the basics.

me :

Nepal Kingdom wouldn’t be shutdown by theirs own people if you said is the real facts.

You said:

I say : The GDP sure as hell would as in Great Disaster Promised.

me :

Don’t be pessimistic see below:

GDP = Consumption + Government Expenditure + Investment + Export-Import

Let compare GDP components contributions between Indonesia vs USA

INDONESIA GDP :
AGRICULTURAL : 13.1%
INDUSTRY : 46%
SERVICE : 41%

USA GDP:
AGRICULTURAL : 0.9%
INDUSTRY : 20.4%
SERVICE : 78.6%

You can see that the drivers of US GDP is not theirs Industry but theirs service business therefore it is no wonder if US Government always keen in pursuing a new conflict with other country in order to keep-up a new job creation like nursing and other medical job for treating theirs wounded soldiers.

In Indonesia, we cannot fully copies US style in creating new job because no other countries using IDR for theirs trade transaction but if we check indonesia GDP figure, there is still big rooms for increasing our GDP by blowing up business in service sectors and infrastructure. I think business related to wedding service for the polygami marriage would create significant new job for the poor.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
IamIsaid,

Well, it’s about time for a refresher course. Besides, it’s not clear what you took at LSE — might’ve been anthropology for all we know. (BTW - did you know a young Mick Jagger - he was there at about the same time).

Either you’re being deliberately sneaky on your definitions of poverty or just don’t know about the debate over measuring poverty.

Yes, true. Economic growth alone doesn’t solve poverty. That’s why I said emphasis on job creation. Also, market’s fail all the time. That’s why there needs to be political pressure. Compassion plays a part, but democracy’s better — giving the poor power. Brazil’s one of the biggest Catholic countries in the world. Theoretically, it should be one of the most compassionate. But in the ’80s and ’90s (dunno about now), they had economic growth without poverty alleviation.

Here’s where you’re getting sneaky. Yes, the Western countries have poverty. But if they used the same measurement indices as Indonesia poverty would be nearly zero. That is, it’d be sociological factors, homeless, untreated mentally ill people etc.

If the Western poverty indices - (absolute, not relative measurement) were used in Indonesia over 90 % of the population, including people who earn Rp.5 juta a month would be poor. Purchasing power parity concept.

I said Tibet, not Nepal. On Nepal, now you’ve been there. I don’t think that adds up to a comprehensive poverty and wellbeing survey.

Point is compassion’s good. We all like compassion. But it won’t be enough to help the poor. They need jobs. For jobs labour demand has to go up. For labour demand to go up, the economy has to be growing. Pretty simple really.
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Welcome back Achmad Sudarsono,

From the gist of your first comment, it sounded to me like you meant that compassion is horseshit (though those are not the exact words that you used) when it comes to dealing with this matter.

That impression also appeared in your subsequent comment wherein you said that compassion is being repeated over and over again.

You are entitled to your opinion and that includes me too and the rest of the free world that are arm chair critics and spew “just words. We’ve all had enough of words in the last 10 years of Reformasi.”

There are several issues pertaining to poverty and suffering. I chose to write about the nonchalant attitude. Did you read, “Indonesians don’t care enough about the poor, says Iamisaid” and the title “Nonchalant attitude towards the poor and suffering.”?

Perhaps, you might have a point if I had it titled it, “Indonesians are not compassionate enough about the poor” and “COMPASSION, COMPASSION, COMPASSION” as the title.

I said that the article I wrote is not just poor as in poor.

Assuming that you have read it in its entirety, what follows “Helping the poor” did I not touch on the matter of creating jobs?

I do not wish to sound apologetic by saying that the topic is huge and to deal with all the different ponderables about it would entail a much, much lengthier essay.

By the way, I have no need to be sneaky as you infer. I do not need to throw a curve ball.

May I NOW be sneaky and borrow you own caption ” (iamisaid) tells it like it is”.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Borrow all you want. If you want to help the poor, compassion won’t do it.

Try offering the next pemulung (not pengemis) the same life, but everyone’s nice to them, versus an asshole boss, at four times the money they’re getting. I’d be interested to see the response.

I think the real reason Indonesians are resigned, not nonchalant is because most of them believe in “nasib”. They don’t understand poverty has a cause and a solution. The solution is smart economics, healthy growth, sensible social policies, buoyant private sector.

The solution is not, however, speeches in the Mesjid.
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Ahhhh Mas cukurangan,

{I say : The GDP sure as hell would as in Great Disaster Promised.}

My apologies; that reply was too short and it misled you.

I was not pointing at Indonesia’s GDP per se or being pessimistic about its performance.

It referred to your comment about encouraging polygamy as that would contribute towards Indonesia’s GDP increasing it by as much as 5 percent as well as create new job oppotunities for Indonesian women.

I think the Indonesian women like their counterpart in Thailand are far more resourceful than their men. The womenfolk in Indonesia would not need polygamy unless they simply love working at night. Hence, the Great Disaster Promised!
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Achmad Sudarsono,

You said and I wholeheartedly agree: “I think the real reason Indonesians are resigned, not nonchalant is because most of them believe in “nasib”. They don’t understand poverty has a cause and a solution. The solution is smart economics, healthy growth, sensible social policies, buoyant private sector.”

Interesting though about your viewpoint - most of them believe in “nasib” and being resigned (as in its the Will of God) for whatever they are.
WP Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
I’m an Indonesian, so I suppose your question applies to me. Here is my honest answer. I don’t like to be confronted face to face with the poors, because I don’t want to be reminded that they exist. Because if I am aware of that, it would be teribly selfish of me to live my sufficient life, while other people suffer as you described. I want to look away, because otherwise I will feel very depressed every day.

But I’m happy there are people like you. I hope, the next time I see a beggar, I will remember your posting and will do a bit more for him/her.
iamisaid Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Hi there WP,

Oh pellease, do not take it the wrong way. We all have our own weaknesses. The sun shall rise tomorrow and its another day where we are given another chance.

I am not reeeech like that Bakrie chap but I do whatever possible within my own limitations. This I believe - if I can help even one Indonesian, it makes one less Indonesian who has to endure such suffering.

Back in my homeland, I have said this once to friends who get carried away with their religious zeal………

“How can you speak so much about God Whom you see not when I know you have never given a care about those people out there who are suffering in various conditions?”
Dragonwall Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 12:22 am
iamisaid, now you are being pitted with a group from the Think Tank and do anticipate a kind of new correlation (refer Yusril’s case) coming up your way and logics.

This guy is trying to tell everyone that in begging they are being control by syndicate that employs people to beg and share the daily intake. Indonesia may not differ from other countries.
In Taiwan and China especially in Shenzhen there were the case of missing children. Sometimes parents recognize their lost kids on the road, with their tongue cut off, limbs maimed begging from 9 to 5 or appropriate busy traffice hours at intersection of busy streets or subway.

When times up there is a transport man coming to pick them up to rendezvous. They receive sizeable income but only share part of the take.
iamisaid Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 1:12 am
Hi dragonwall,

OMG! what you relate about Taiwan and China is absolutely ghastly.
Mr. TicTacToe Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 1:14 am
@dragonwall:

ah… you really are something ^_^

Just becoz we disagree on logic and yusril, that doesnt mean we have to disagree on many other things khan? I just read your posting about the purifier things, I do admire your efforts on that. Dont be so hostile lah, I will continue to play on that yusril post later lah, too tired right now.

This guy is trying to tell everyone that in begging they are being control by syndicate that employs people to beg and share the daily intake.

ah you got me wrong, or probably I didn’t make it clear. You said that I was a “pelayan”, right? I work at a cybercafe networks, and my company needs coins for daily operations. Since I knew some beggars, and they needed paper money, I asked them to trade in their coins to us. A mutual relationship, I said nothing about syndicate or such.

@iamisaid:
My point was, from what I see, begging is a quite lucrative business. My company could only afford to pay my employees (legally) less than the beggar made.

Giving the beggars money, might not really help them. In fact, it might even encourage new beggars to emerge. More people gave up their creativities to solve their problems.

What else we can do in micro level other than giving beggars what they seemed to need? I dont know. really.

Back in my activist years, I helped in some shelter house for “anak jalanan”, so that they can try to improve their lives. But it didn’t work that well, some if not most of them went back to beggars life.

Not all of us having lack of compassions, we might be as helpless as we can be.
WP Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 1:35 am
Oh pellease, do not take it the wrong way. We all have our own weaknesses. The sun shall rise tomorrow and its another day where we are given another chance.

Well, but you really have a valid point.
iamisaid Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 1:49 am
Welcome back Mr. Tic Tac Toe,

You said: “My point was, from what i see, begging is a quite lucrative business. My company could only afford to pay my employees (legally) less than the beggar made.”

me: It might well be right in a few, maybe some cases but it would be against my conscience to use that as a reason to castigate the rest of “beggardom” (let’s give them a kingdom).

You said: “Giving the beggars money, might not really help them. In fact, it might even encourage new beggars to emerge. More people gave up their creativities to solve their problems.”

me: It depends on how one wishes to dispense really. And again, as with anything else that one applies oneself to do - there must be a desire to do it. the are other factors too.

For example, I have a very small organisation that I manage wherein I introduce severe cases to potential donors. The kind of support that these donors provide is their decision to make. It could be money, it could be clothings, it could be whatever that pleases them. My job is fulfilled when receipient and donor are related on a one to one relationship. So far, it has worked pretty well.

You said: “Back in my activist years, i helped in some shelter house for “anak jalanan”, so that they can try to improve their lives. But it didnt work that well, some if not most of them went back to beggars life.”

me: Awww. From what I know about that sort of support, running a shelter center is pretty tough. It needs the kind of skills like Mother Teresa and a pretty well run Organisation to sustain it.

You said: “What else we can do in micro level other than giving beggars what they seemed to need? I dont know. really.” and “Not all of us having lack of compassions, we might be as helpless as we can be.”

me: I have had instances where I was hoodwinked by beggars.

For example: This old porter who wore worn out sandals at the Ferry Terminal. Always falling ill. I told him that I would give him a pair of Safety boots. The subsequent times I met him at the Terminal I noticed that he never wore the Safety boots. So, he probably sold it and spent the money on something of greater priority.

Lesson I learned. Who’s to blame if second guessing is the name of the game everytime I decide to give alms in cash or in kind? I gave. He did not beg me for it. What he does with it is not any business of mine after the fact. Just because I give does not entitle me to run his life. If he does not put whatever he receives to good use, it would be his turn to learn too.

Cheers,
Dragonwall Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 1:51 am
iamisaid..OMG it is very real. I was in the NE region for years. I run 39 franchise stores all over Taiwan with factories in HK, and China. So I travelled to places. In the 70’s and 80’s many kids were kidnapped and it happened once a lady in Taiwan had lost her son for years from their southside home and suddenly she came across her son in Taipei with on of his hand surgically amputated and unable to talk. That create a storm with an all out efforts to round up the syndicates.

In Shenzhen the style of begging is more officially selling flowers near Karaoke and entertainment places. It is still going on. Even daily robbery and snatch thieves were very eactively present in Shenzhen and Guangdong railway station.

poor people were being recruited to smuggle dope. Pregnant women from Yunnan stuffing drugs in their arse. These are hazards in society and hopefully Indonesia do not have to resort to these in search of a better life.
Dragonwall Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 2:14 am
Dont be so hostile lah

Or perhaps I was wrong about you. Guess we are back to logic..ok.

I said nothing about syndicate or such.

I am the one who said and they exist very real, everywhere, everyplace.

In singapore beggars are so rich that their bank accounts are so fat. If you capitalize on the the festive, seasons, deities birthday at temples.

When I was a kid we visited the KUSU Island in singapore yearly to pay homage. A day before we left we get ready with a lot of loose change. On our way uphill we won’t pay any attention them those beggars lining the steps by the hundreds. On our way down we distributed a coin each to them. Rupiahs exchange rate at that time was about less than 50 rp = 1 SGD. Just imagine.

A beggar on a good day can bring in around 1-2,000 SGD on festive days. So I would say many of them are professional beggars.

There was also one lady in Hongkong who was known to be a scrap lady who collected cartons for waste. She live frugally in a makeshift joint full of scrap newspaper and cartons. she turned out to be one the the richest woman in Hongkong owning various properties that were being leased to others and yet she simply forfeit the extravagance in life. That’s life.
iamisaid Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 2:40 am
Welcome back again, dragonwall,

“These are hazards in society and hopefully Indonesia do not have to resort to these in search of a better life.”

Such heinous cruelty from the additional information you shared.

Yes, hopefully that sort of despicable rot will never find its way in Indonesia.

About what you related - that woman who made her rounds picking up cartons and became a zillionaire, I think I shall tell one of my sons to do the same instead of job hopping.
Dragonwall Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 3:13 am
I think I shall tell one of my sons to do the same instead of job hopping.

There come a time you need to jump ship a time you need to stay. When I was working with a bank before, I was offered to work with SHK in HK with better remuneratives. My uncle in the hotel business later introduce his friend who finds me suitable in managing his business after he acquired his Taiwan franchise. From there I stop moving and expand the business but we stop short of going public at Walls St when my boss decided to make it to the Chinese market then came the riot and I left.

One should decide what is best for them. When they fit the job well expand on it whether working for others or private. That’s what I do in business engineering.
Diversifying Assets.

Although I am now almost half retired filing Motion and filing Litigation in a law firm I still work my mind in coaching my kids in their educational approach especially economics and management. My daughter opted for Hotelier I advice Civil Engineeering and she go for it. Later I will asked her to branch out to Architectural. When she is ready for the commercial world I will teach her business economy and managements.
iamisaid Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Hi dragonwall,

It was good reading hearing your management and approach regarding career path for your daughter.

Although what we’re discussing now is not part of the article proper, I hope that Patung and the others do not mind it.

I have three well behaved sons. I have been fortunate that there never was a need to use negative reinforcement on any of them. I do not recall ever having had the need to spank them with my hand on their bottoms. In that sense I have been blessed.

However, it has been altogether a different matter when they reached the age in deciding what they needed to pursue for their tertiary education and choice of career.

My eldest son then had a inclination for I.T and computers. I supported his ambition mainly because I believe a person would do best in the things he loves to do. Talent being another thing.

By the time he had finished his University Course, the I.T bubble burst and we all know what ensued.

My second son chose Bio Medical. Even wanted to go for a double degree and finish it with Bio Tech. Regardless of either one of those, the Bio Industry is not it is like in Europe where they’re going great guns in the Bio Industry.

However, he has found a job with that sort of complements his education. He could do far better with his talent but that means having to go abroad.

My third son is on a roller coaster. Probably the most intelligent of the three from his impeccable scholastic performance. He cannot seem to make up his mind in which Medical discipline he wishes to pursue. He has not much time left to make that crucial decision.

I decided that I would retire from regular employ when I turned 50. It is not because I am tired of working or that I am outrageously wealthy. I wanted to have time to do the things that I have never been able to do
Also having seen lots of my senior friends end their lives with all kinds of illnesses because they stressed themselves to work, work, work leading to their premature deaths, that too had a cause for my decision.

A decision which of course dismayed my wife because I would be a pain in the ass 24×7 at home.

Then along came Indonesia. Never had Indonesia on my mind ever.

LOL !
Sputjam Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 12:49 am
Begging is like bribery done on a lower level. Numerous beggars on the street means a probable failed state. Giving money to beggars means contributing to make the whole system less efficient, because these baggers do not contribute to any work.

In other words, pay some money to these guys to make them do some beneficial work. It can be simple work, like cleaning the neighbourhood drain, or asking them to secure the neighbourhood from bandits(private security firm), payment done by contribution from the community chest collected monthly or weekly.

Ot get them to collect garbage and then, in their own yard, seperate the useful recyclable ones from the real garbage. I am sure there are some ideas on how these guys can find some jobs. the only problem is, are they willing to work?

Or as mentioned by some, begging actually is lucrative business. I hope it does not escalate like what had happened in some parts of china.
panera Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
The goverment need to start planning to use the taxes money to pay for education for the people specialy the poor one, so they get better education. School from primary to high school sould be free. And THE GOVERMENT NEED TO create MORE jobs for all these people, that way it will eliminate poor living and less beggar.
WP Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Begging is like bribery done on a lower level. Numerous beggars on the street means a probable failed state. Giving money to beggars means contributing to make the whole system less efficient, because these baggers do not contribute to any work.

That’s not true. They work. Sitting a whole day along the road, under the rain and sun heat is a hell of a work. To what effect, you would ask? Well, to the effect of redistribubing income. Some country has a whole infrastructure for doing that. Except that there they call it something Social Security rather than begging.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Poor maimed guy in the picture above. This is what we are going to see more often once syariah is in place.

Cukurungan said

“¦ no wonder if US Government always keen in pursuing a new conflict with other country in order to keep-up a new job creation like nursing and other medical job for treating theirs wounded soldiers.

Don’t worry. One day Indonesia will be on the same level as the US in new job creation like nursing and other medical jobs for treating their syariah convicts.
Ade Wanto Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Hi iamisaid,

You say, “I decided that I would retire from regular employ when I turned 50.”
Why must wait till 50? But, I suggest, don’t throw your daily job even you suck on it. It hard to find a job than get rid of it.

Your answer : “Remember your humanity and forget the rest” (Albert Einstein)

I add: “Don’t bring your heart to heaven coz heaven know we need here” (Herbert Feith)

This is the country where 49% people live in poverty. But there is a minister to whom Indonesian give their hope has own 50 trillion rupiah in his pocket.
This is the country where 45% people unemployed. But there are political animals just smile and sing their song (even sing in front of Asian Idols) and still get sleep well even their fellow leader (in another countries) can’t get sleep enough when unemployment rate reach 4-5%. For 45% of unemployment rate, this guys really still smile wider. Suck!
iamisaid Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Hi ade wanto,

You advised: “Why must wait till 50? But, I suggest, don’t throw your daily job even you suck on it. It hard to find a job than get rid of it.”

me: Ha ha ha, well ade, I did not retire out of being lazy. I had reasons in doing so for some to the given reasons which I related in my response above to dragonwall.

Yes, the way the job situation is versus an ever growing population, protectionism, economic blackmail, political and economic uncertainties, increasing racist activities, greed, unjust practices, more and more incapable people becoming leaders and the law of the jungle becoming a altruistic for mankind - I decided that my time, within my limited means, to return what God and my fellow beings have provided me during my productive years before my day arrives to bid this world farewell.

I have mentioned somewhere else at IM that I do some humanitarian work in Indonesia. I do it quietly with all respect to race, religion or status.

This I have always believed - that it would be a lie if I said that I love God Whom I do not see but fail to love humans whom I can see, talk and share with. Besides, it does not need one to be a religious freak to accomplish that.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Friend,

But poverty has benefit. With many poor, there will be many pembantu and more time to practice Ukuele and study Pancasila.

Iya ‘kan ?
Sputjam Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
WP said -

That’s not true. They work. Sitting a whole day along the road, under the rain and sun heat is a hell of a work. To what effect, you would ask? Well, to the effect of redistribubing income. Some country has a whole infrastructure for doing that. Except that there they call it something Social Security rather than begging.

Maybe the government should evaluate its decision making process, because presently, it is inefficient. The jobless migrate to Jakarta to escape poverty and to start a new life, presumably looking for work. Reason they migrate in the first place is because there is a lack of opportunity in the province. If central government decision is de-centralise, then there will be more jobs available in the districts. You do not require jakarta to have final say in issuance of local businesses such as banks and TV/telcos stations as long as the conditions for such a business is met.

Ade Wanto said -

This is the country where 49% people live in poverty. But there is a minister to whom Indonesian give their hope has own 50 trillion rupiah in his pocket.

Indonesia is the largest ASEAN economy. But it does not look like one. The population is brainwashed to think that it is one of the poorest country on earth. This must be the only country whereby the government subsidies the rich and taxes the poor in the form of fuel subsidies instead of subsidising farmers like they do in the west.
iamisaid Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Hi Sputjam,

You said: ” If central govenrment decision is de-centralise, then there will be more jobs available in the districts.”

me: That which I know of, the move to grant autonomy to the Provinces has not shown that effect (”more jobs available in the districts”) to date.

Take for example, Kepulauan Riau was granted self autonomy.

The Singapore-Kepulauan Riau bilateral agreement which would have brought more jobs to the Riau island populace has gone into a stalemate. Why? It was in the news both in Singapore and over INA tv where both parties pointed the blame at Jakarta.

Then the next question is - why Jakarta? This is just my speculation. Jakarta is arm twisting Singapore to repatriate Indonesians ill gotten wealth that Indonesians have laundered into Singapore Banks.

Singapore is bursting at her seams and is in need of more land space and human resource to support their dynamic economic growth. Knowing Singapore’s attitude, she would not give a damn if they are being counter threathened by some other agenda from Jakarta.

Jakarta by their intransigience staves off immediate economic advancement for the rakyat in the Provinces.

And you are correct in making that opening statement, “the (Indonesian) govenrment should evaluate its decision making process, because presently, it is inefficient.”
Dragonwall Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 3:23 am
Social Security rather than begging.

So Social Security is liken to begging?

Singapore have what they call the CPF (Central Provident Fund) similar to Social Security that were meant for old age. Unemployment benefits are for those temporarily unemployed. Both of that reflects on how much you have contributed to the fund before you were given in return. So does beggars contribute anything? No.. I guess thay are both different to what you were describing.
Mr. TicTacToe Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 10:57 am
@WP:
you said:

That’s not true. They work. Sitting a whole day along the road, under the rain and sun heat is a hell of a work. To what effect, you would ask? Well, to the effect of redistribubing income.

I have to disagree on this. The simplest principle of working is this: you work you produce goods or services. With no value added to economy, they are burden to workforce at best, parasite at worst.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate them, some disabled poor are just that, and they do deserve attentions, but most others are simply liars, in their home village they have the biggest houses, and that alone lure the next generations to do exactly what they do.

This is a dillematic reality. As much as i wanted to help, I don’t want it to be just like pouring salt into the sea. This could happen someday, i might give money to some beggars who owns more than i am.

About redistributing income. The possibility of what can be taken as redistributing income is endless, we can also say corruption is redistributing income if beggars are included to that. After all, begging is a form of moral corruption, if the beggars can still actually do something else for living.

Even beggars should have integrity, real beggars who really have to beg should form kaypang or something.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Also, I think a lot of the poor people smell. Why are they so smelly ? Also, I think they should dress a bit better. At least Ramayana-quality clothes. It’s so unpresentable when they come up to the car wearing an unwashed and ragged shirt.
Janma Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
An Indonesian couple I know in Jakarta work full time and leave their baby home with a sitter. After awhile they came to notice the baby was getting quite dark skin, like she’d been in the sun too much. they told the sitter to keep her out of the sun. A week or so later a friend of the family was driving downtown and saw their child being held at the traffic light by a beggar lady! The sitter had been hiring the baby out for the day while the parents were at work!
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Janma,

Is that a true story !!??! You have amazing stories.

What did they do ??

Achmad
dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Sputjam said

In other words, pay some money to these guys to make them do some beneficial work.

A survey made in Denpasar has shown that begging yields an average income of 10,000 IRP a day. For living in a remote village this seems enough, so these people have no incentive whatsoever to work. They are brought in daily by the truckloads from area’s like Bangli and Karangasem and they are returned after dark. Lots of them only accept cash and refuse food or even small jobs for better pay. Practically all women beggars carry babies and, as Janma also stated, the story goes that those with no baby of their own rent them from other women, at a price of course.
The authorities have tried to counteract but to no avail. Sometimes they are raided and sent home under police escort but the next day they will simply start over. Sosialisasi campaigns to make people stop from giving don’t seem to work, probably for religion-related reasons.
It’s a sad problem. Most beggars are resigned and don’t expect or even want another lifestyle. My personal attitude is as follows
- I never give to children or women carrying a child
- I never give to young adults unless they show signs of disease or cacat.
- I always give to old people who seem helpless.
WP Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Tictactoe:

I have to disagree on this. The simplest principle of working is this: you work you produce goods or services. With no value added to economy, they are burden to workforce at best, parasite at worst.

I fail to see why beggaring doesn’t produce services. Like I said, their service is the redistribution of income. Economy is not a simple input-output machinery. Income redistribution is a valid goal of any economy that pretends to be just.

…we can also say corruption is redistributing income

Indeed. But begaring won’t cost us much in terms of wasted effeciency, while corruption can waste all. In particular for Indonesia, since all of our beggars have no education, so even if they work, their production value is small. So we don’t lose much anyway. From this perspective I don’t see why you should complain so much about beggars, even if they are all liars. Perhaps if we concentrate on improving our education level, then we can catch two flies with one smack.
Dragonwall Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Why are they so smelly Smelly armpit. They don’t wash to make them look bonafide, otherwise with Ramayana style there might have a new name for them. Like Beggar management.

Yes and Janma said is very true. Unscrupulous syndicate systematically recruit people, borrowed people child and baby alike, like in China, just for their greed or personal. There are people who beg for a living because they are poor. There are people who does recruiting cannot be look upon as poor beggars but they beg with a motive other than being poor.

I entirely disagree to the word redistribution of income. It is just people who utilize the ’sikon’ to capitalize on it and should be considered as lynching simply the government does not seemed to bother or is unable to overcome the problem. But even if the government is capable it will still be another day’s job for them, easy income. Old habit dies hard.

With unscrupulous government officials, inefficient government the society never improve. The quality of life remains stagnant going back in time. Nothing is moving forward.

There are people who even pretends to be sick, as a new techniques of begging, like carrying along with them a doctor’s prescription and go around begging for money for medicine. At the beginning I thought that to be real. But it seems that these people go to Glodok to beg with the same old tricks that I later found out. These people are lynching on the kind heart of society.
Janma Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:07 am
in bali there is an entire village near kintamani where it is their tradition to go out and beg. They all must do it, they say it’s a curse they have on their village and if they don’t do it disaster will fall….
The story about the baby in jakarta is true. They fired the baby sitter. They did not call the police. (last thing people here think of doing usually.
I used to live in Bengal, India and people there cannot be a beggar UNLESS they belong to a syndicate. They won’t allow them, all the streets are someones turf. I saw a woman rub her child (Maybe her child) leg stump (he had an amputated leg) on the gravel of the street to make it bleed once, cause she saw some rich hindoo coming her way.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Janma,

Wow. Has there been anything written any where - articles or anything on that place in Kintamani ? And do they call water there “Air Mani” he he he ?

That’s a very interesting, if completely sick (in India) phenomenon. It’s why I was trying to impress upon the good Mr. IamIsaid that whilst homo sapiens sapiens has her uplifting moments, she and he is still a very violent species.
Janma Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:24 am
However, as a note on the India story above, that is in towns and cities not in villages, and it is also excepting holy people. Holy people beg all over India and they do not belong to any syndicate and most Indian households consider it good luck if a holy man come to the house to ask for alms. The front doorsteps are decorated with rice flour patterns. These patterns can mean many different things, special days have special designs. There are certain things that one puts at ones door to give sign to the holy men that they can beg there. I remember being told ‘we put this here to attract beggars…it’s for good luck.’
Janma Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:29 am
About the village in Bali… it’s trunyan, a bali age village. they say if they don’t go and beg then they get sick, or bad things happen etc. Many balinese are embarrassed to talk about this phenomenon. I just went downstairs and asked my staff, they all said it was their tradition there.
Dragonwall Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 1:27 am
Poor people begging as a mean of obtaining income for whatever use they intend for.
But:
Holy people beg all over India and they do not belong to any syndicate and most Indian households consider it good luck if a holy man come to the house to ask for alms. The front doorsteps are decorated with rice flour patterns.
This is different. It is like monks practicing they daily belief since Buddhism evolved.

Beggin for alms like food and flowers in a two way karma effect.

The giver offers their sincerity as they possibl could. a little something for the monk or holy begging whereas the receiver returns with the alms for prayers and help the giver lessen their sin in their previous life.

I guess there are some difference in this kind of begging and they do similar to Hinduism in India and Bali. Try visiting Sai Baba. he is thought to be a reincarnation of someone holy.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 23rd, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Achmad Sudarsono said

Wow. Has there been anything written any where - articles or anything on that place in Kintamani ? And do they call water there “Air Mani” he he he ?

Trunyan is a village of about 600 people on the shore of lake Batur, only accessible by boat or walking. Its people, called Bali Aga, are the island’s oldest inhabitants who lived here long before Majapahit.
Legend has it the village was founded on the spot where an ancient taru menyan tree stood, hence the name of the place. It was said that in ancient times the lake goddess Dewi Danu was lured from heaven by the lovely scent of the tree. The tree is the lair of underworld spirits (bhuta kala) who are attracted by decomposing meat and corpses, which may explain why they don’t bury or cremate their dead but leave them to rot in the open.
The people, mostly inbred, still live outside of the mainstream. Most of them are fishermen. Although they plant some crops in plots near the lakeshore they have no rice fields. Since ancient times they rely on begging to supplement their meager diet.
All in all a scary place, full of litter, sampah and money-hungry hustlers. But the setting is spectacular.

I don’t know if they call water ‘Air Mani’, but if you go there better make sure to bring your own drinks. You never know with these people.