Corporal Punishment
December 3rd, 2007, in Opinion, by RossRoss worries that western do-gooders are trying to have spanking and caning outlawed.
Another remarkable sign of how Third World countries are being coerced and cajoled into accepting decadent drivel from the West appeared in the Jakarta Post 20/11. The frontpage article began with an exhortation to parents not to pinch or slap their children and to report any other parent whom they saw committing these heinous sins.
At a time when even the Brown “Nanny State” regime in the UK has thrown out calls for a ban on parental “smacking”, why on earth should Indonesian mums and dads be told not to give their kids a good slap when they step out of line? Children, and indeed adults, seldom get through life successfully on the basis of self-discipline alone. You only need to watch Jakarta’s traffic to see how quickly the mask of civilisation would slip if no penalties awaited transgressors.
And getting a neighbour nabbed by cops because she smacks an unruly child is true totalitarian stuff - surely unwelcome on top of the cretinous “raids” by official snooper-goons on hotels to catch unwed couples?
This ‘no pinching’ command apparently came from the oddly-titled Minister for Women’s Empowerment, (a title surely taken straight from one of the Gender Studies pseudo-disciplines currently proliferating in Anglo-Saxon universities). Ms. Meutia Hatta Swasono may reflect Jakarta Post-type opinion but many Indonesian women must have raised their eye-brows at such an Orwellian attitude. (I say Orwellian not because George Orwell held such views- he may have done but was generally a sensible sort of socialist - but because of the Big Brother mentality the lady displays). It echoes a similar report about six months ago - or was it the same report, dredged up again by the permissivists of the UN and their local hangers-on?
Teachers too got some stick. Surely, faced with rowdy or obnoxious pupils, a teacher should not have to fear some snooper reporting him or her if the miscreant gets a whack with a cane or a belt, as happened in England and Scotland respectively until John Major’s government u-turned on the issue of corporal punishment in schools, under duress from the clowns on the European Court. (Major himself had voted only a year or so previously to keep the cane but did a jelly-fish act when his Euro-Lords issued their proclamation.) British schools are now chaotic, teachers up against it (though it’s hard to pity them too much, since their left-led unions egged on the permissive policies which led to teacher disarmament).
In September last year, Charles Gray, the Labour bigwig who master-minded Strathclyde’s abolition of corporal punishment in the schools of Scotland’s largest region, admitted that the upsurge of indiscipline which followed was a result of this folly. But because of the British establishment’s obsequious obeisance to “Europe”, there is no political will to reverse the disastrous process.
And the horrors of many inner-city USA schools are all too well known. There too, for a long time now, “reading and writing and ‘rithmetic, all to the tune of the hickory stick” has been a song all but forgotten. But the report contained much that was even more shocking -appalling, might be a better word.
Okay, so the West is going down the tube, but now we have this UNICEF character laying down the law to Indonesia. Gianfranco Rotiglianoa is all worked up because 80% of teachers here “have practiced physical punishment or conducted verbal abuse against children”. Absurdly, these comments are served up in an article that includes matters of genuine concern such as bullying and “sexual abuse, forced marriage and violent treatment by care-takers”, as if there were any moral equivalence between such outrages and wise parental discipline or “verbal abuse”, i.e. teachers calling a stupid young lout just that, a stupid young lout.
Sexual abuse of children is in fact something for which physical punishment should be formally prescribed. I abhor the sharia brutes in Aceh who administer “hukum cambuk” on working men who play cards for a few rupiah or on teens who enjoy a cuddle behind closed doors, yet it is not the nature of the punishment that is offensive but the offences for which it is meted out.
Birching or flogging are entirely appropriate responses to the frequent cases of child sexploitation, incestuous rape or sodomy reported on tv’s crime programmes. Some might say whippings are not harsh enough. A death sentence for the foreign perv who got only ten years after his conviction a year or so ago would have been salutary. But then the European Union would have been as vociferous to save his skin as they are to safeguard the lives of vermin like Amrozi, or as Amnesty International has been to stop the welcome execution of drug-dealers. The West in its present decadent deformation has nothing to teach Indonesia.
Equally, the shameful bullying uncovered in the state institute (IPDN) should in no way be compared with short sharp shocks administered by conscientious parents and/or teachers. If anything, the behaviour of the louts who killed young Cliff Muntu is testimony to the failure of their parents to instil forcefully into them a modicum of common decency, much as the young scumbag who got a pitiful five years for shooting dead a harmless waiter in the Jakarta Hilton might not have been such a moral vacuum had his parents given him the occasional sound thrashing. It is tempting to speculate that even Tommy might have emerged as a decent human being had old Pak Harto laid into him now and then.
Too many Indonesian urchins bawl and yell and ill-use their housekeepers, mannerless clods before they reach high school. The last thing needed is some damn-fool busy-body like Rotigliano seeking to persecute parents who might tumble to the fact that they are rearing slobs and take belated action to curb their brats’ anti-social tendencies. (Alas, there are also delinquent parents, like that high-level hoodlum who ran amok at JIS’ sports event a few years back. Did JIS fight to have him prosecuted for his thuggery? It all went quiet on that case, but one hopes that such a respected institution took all steps it could to have the man dealt with severely.)
However, there are undoubtedly many Indonesian parents who do want their young to be well-behaved and who understand that “to spare the rod is to spoil the child”. To be told that “pinching and slapping your children is not acceptable - and it’s your responsibility to report others who do” is not just illegitimate interference in parental rights, it is a recipe for a next generation of unbridled irresponsibility.
Tags: Education, Jakarta, Meutia Hatta Swasono, Schools, Teaching, Women
37 Comments on “Corporal Punishment”
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Janma Says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 11:54 amRoss Ross! I don’t know what to say…. I mean, I know what to say… but where to begin.
Firstly, I have five children and I’m not against a smack or two when needed.. but there is absolutely NO WAY I would agree to teachers physically punishing my child. So many teachers, (especially here in Indonesia) are angry frustrated individuals who take out their misery on the children they teach. Children should be protected from them. Once my son was called a ‘celeng’ (Pig) by his teacher in school because he asked a question. Do you think this would make him a better person? Or when the kids had a debate, one of the teachers belted one of the kids for agreeing with my son, who is half indonesian and half australian. His reason? That kid (Indonesian) shouldn’t be supporting a ‘penjajah’.
So why would you think they are to be trusted with corporal punishment for the children under their care? You’re mad!I know Ali G thinks kids should be caned in school… LOL… we were caned the whole time we were in school. Me thinks Ross was caned when he wrote the above essay!
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colson Says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:16 pmOnce more a, well, eh, how to say it politely… a controversial article by Ross Esquire. Unfortunately it is made up of mere opinions. Hawkish and hostile opinions by the way.
To cut it short: I don’t agree.
In this case it will suffice to answer with two mere counter opinions.
(1) Abolition of corporal punishment is a proof of civilization and a token of hope that mankind is able to learn.
(2) Europe is an ever growing better place to live in truth and dignity.
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Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 8:43 pmRoss, Ross,
One thing you obviously haven’t gained from the West is competency in basic expression. I’d love to debunk your arguments. Typically, they are weak, poorly informed, and often outright moronic. Yes, Ross, you’re borderline, sunshine.
The problem is that your writing is just so poorly put together and long.
On Orwell, whom you claim is sensible. Why don’t read what he X$#%%&!!!**-well wrote ? Politics and the English language. Google it.
Now I’ll help the readers by translating a few Rossisms into simple, clear English. Rossisms in bold.
currently proliferating = in use, or widespread.
Principle: don’t use abstract, or compound expressions when you can use a simple one. “Currently proliferating”?? It’s a pathetic attempt to sound smart, when all you do is sound verbose.
(I say Orwellian not because George Orwell held such views- he may have done but was generally a sensible sort of socialist - but because of the Big Brother mentality the lady displays: for god’s sake break this up into two sentences you imbecile.
vociferous: pompous word - what are you trying to say ?
Modicum : what’s a “modicum of common decency”, other than a total cliche, something Orwell called on us to avoid ?
Sound thrashing: Sounds like a Metallica concert. Once again a cliche.
The point is, Ross, your writing is full of pompous constructions, verbiage, bad usage and cliches. Poor expression like this is not just an insult to the reader, but also a signpost to the mental torpor that produced it.
I vociferously, suggest you display a modicum of common decency and give yourself a sound thrashing into something Orwell might have vaguely (because your writing is vague) approved of.
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WP Says:
December 4th, 2007 at 6:46 amYah, I agree with Achmad. If I want to entertain myself with some prosaic work I’ll go to library. But from anything in Internet, I expect to get to the core of the issues, with minimum effort. Some styles are tolerated, but if I can’t understand you in the first five sentences, I won’t bother to look at the rest.
Another point, are you yourself a parent Ross?
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December 4th, 2007 at 8:28 amWP,
I think Ross just enjoys frothing at the mouth and whipping himself into a frenzy about the thought of spanking children. He also brought up NAMBLA - the national association for man-boy love in one reference. No coincidence, I’m sure.
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Oigal Says:
December 4th, 2007 at 11:06 amIt just never ends with this guy… So now its is acceptable in “ROSS WORLD” to pinch children? Not happy with that it’s also
Teachers too got some stick. Surely, faced with rowdy or obnoxious pupils, a teacher should not have to fear some snooper reporting him or her if the miscreant gets a whack with a cane or a belt.
It’s apparently ok for some ill-defined “teacher” to strike children as well, with a stick or belt no less (big brave types those). I must be honest tho, any thug adult to takes it upon himself/herself to strike my child, the very least of their concerns would be getting reported.
Actually Ross, I had the misfortune to encounter some of those sad bullies when I was going to school. It was a reflection on their poor ability rather than any behaviour problems of the students (funny how some teachers can achieve success without beating kids with tools of violence into submission). Although it gave me great pleasure to return that school after reaching adulthood, and dealing with some rather harder knocks in life. Very interesting to see just how brave the bully was when facing someone his own size..simpering, whimpering fool like all bullies.
WP has a very valid and scary question as well…
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Ross Says:
December 4th, 2007 at 2:02 pmJanma, you offer constructive criticism which I take on board. Abuse of corporal punishment, or any punishment regime, is disgraceful. Your lad had a bad teacher. But think of those who do a hard job to the best of their ability. The belt and the cane produced generations in the UK who knew that misdeeds brought trouble. Today we see the results of its absence.
Achmad, you really are a big-head…. if you think my posts are no good, look at your own. Some of us post to express views, and if others are less eloquent, like your good? self, we don’t make an issue of it. You are also a sleazy sort, probably not an Indonesian, despite your pseudonym - your comments on NAMBLA indicate a trendy Westerner’s prejudices and are your first response to my mention in another thread of that outfit’s abominable existence. Of course you fail to condemn them, preferring to make snide remarks instead of reasoned argument (no actual argument was discernible in your post above, just insults, from somebody whose literary skills might not even get him hired by the Jakarta post)
At least Ogle does not pretend to be a local. His comments reveal an arduous past, so let’s forgive him, as the season of goodwill approaches.
And WP…Yes, I am a parent, a proud one, two young adults now, who rarely needed discipline because they were taught good manners (pity Achmad never got that particular lesson from anyone!) but not all parents take the time and trouble to do so, as the behaviour of many ‘youths’ reveals both here and in other countries.
I see the American Pediatricians Association has only this week said that parents should not exclude a smack if they do it caringly- that’s the key- Achmad and his sort don’t really care about anything. -
December 4th, 2007 at 3:04 pmRoss,
Friend,
My argument was simple: if you are clearer and shorter people will understand you better and take apart your rantings with greater ease.
On your actual content, just the following from me. At a time when Indonesia faces environmental disasters and all the problems of lifting a country out of poverty, Ross is most moved to right about…spanking children in schools.
You talk about Orwell. Why don’t you read him ? Here’s a weblink to “Politics and the English Language.” (http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html). It might help. I’ve highlighted in bold tips especially relevant for people like yourself.
Orwell’s summary includes advice such as:
# Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
# Never us a long word where a short one will do.
# If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
# Never use the passive where you can use the active.
# Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.You should also read “Fowler’s Guide to Modern English Usage,” (1916), which includes remedies for your diseases like use of cliches, abstractitis, wardour street (use of obscure words just for the sake of it),
Now a few more tips on Rossisms (indicated in bold).
heinous sins: Now Rossy-poo, a sin is already pretty heinous. Just say sin and don’t clutter up the sentence.
mask of civilisation : cliche. This metaphor’s so tired it deserves to be retired.cretinous: A “cretin” is actually someone who’s deformed and mentally retarded. Likening a stupid act to cretin-linke qualities is like calling someone a “retard”. Now it’s a matter of taste, but I think it’s cruel to insult someone on the basis of a mental disability. (In your case, I’m insulting you on the basis of your personality).
Surely, faced with rowdy or obnoxious pupils, a teacher should not have to fear some snooper reporting him or her if the miscreant gets a whack with a cane or a belt, as happened in England and Scotland respectively until John Major’s government u-turned on the issue of corporal punishment in schools, under duress from the clowns on the European Court.
They call this a “runaway train” sentence. For god’s sake chop it into manageable bites. Any self-respecting composition teacher would’ve given you a “sound thrashing.”
obsequious obeisance: hmm, just say “kow-towing” or for plainness “deference”. “obseqious obeisance” is complete abstractitis.Too many Indonesian urchins bawl and yell and ill-use their housekeepers, mannerless clods before they reach high school.
The housekeepers are the mannerless clods ? Or is it you ?
That’s enough for now. Ross, have a bit of a read of Orwell and Fowler, and readers will thank you.
Janma,
Awful story about the teacher. Sorry to hear it. What are they thinking, though ? Surely some parental person would at the least dangle the teacher by his feat into the nearest canal ?
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December 4th, 2007 at 3:47 pmLet me know if you need a hand Janma dangling the thug teacher, for once Asmad has a sound idea.
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December 4th, 2007 at 3:54 pmThanks anyway Ross, don’t really need your forgiveness I was not planning on visiting ROSS WORLD anytime soon, tad too bleak and scary for us humans. What with poofter hunts, immigrant detention, child bashing, reds under the beds raids (kinda tuff on father xmas this time of year).
Of course, it would be rollocking good fun to wander out to the town square on Xmas day with the family to watch the latest execution then we could all go on single mother hunt and pound them with tomatoes the hussies!!
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December 4th, 2007 at 4:09 pmYes, Janma, ditto Oigal’s second last comment, although if he met me in person, I suspect I’d be the second one dangled, and rightly so !
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dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 4th, 2007 at 9:36 pmOigal said
Let me know if you need a hand Janma dangling the thug teacher, for once Asmad has a sound idea.
I don’t live far from Janma, so I will join the posse. Merdeka!
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Dragonwall Says:
December 5th, 2007 at 5:19 amI think Ross, are you referring to yourself as being a so called “Indonesian” urchins bawling. Perhaps you might have had a bad one at home or is that these housekeepers does not come with side service to keep you refresh so that bawling and yelling became your daily bread and butter. When you refer to urchins you need to be specific otherwise it looks like some kind of side tracking.
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December 5th, 2007 at 7:35 amAlso Ross, from now on, I think it’s better if you address me with proper honorifics to show the due respect. I mean in theory, we’re all equal and the Blogosphere’s a neutral space etc, but in reality it’s not like that. When I’m forced to instruct you in the basics of expression, it elevates me to the status of a teacher. It has often been the case on this site. In Asia, unlike your country, we respect teachers.
So I’ll have to insist you call me “Mr. Achmad,” “Bpk Achmad,” or more properly, “Bpk Achmad Yth,” If in the future you adopt a more respectful tone, I don’t mind a simple “Kang,” “Mas” or “Bung,” because I am a Pancasilaist and believe in plurality. (Despite the superiority of Java).
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Subrata Says:
December 5th, 2007 at 11:25 amSo, Bpk. guru Achmad yth, are you going to spank Ross if he kept on blabbering nonsense?
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December 5th, 2007 at 11:42 amIf he would let me, I would love to spank him. I shiver with antici…………….pation !
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Janma Says:
December 5th, 2007 at 12:34 pmJust a note on what i did in the above teacher cases… the one that called him a pig was a balinese teacher in Raj Yamuna school… I just took him out.
The other one was in Dyatmika school, I reported the teacher and they fired her!
As for ross thinking it’s ok to whack kids…. some father just killed his kid here in denpasar last week cause he would not stop crying. I think parents killing their kids happens a lot here! I hear of a case almost every week….. is that what you had in mind ross!? Sounds like the next generation of kids in indonesia will be fine then? -
December 5th, 2007 at 12:38 pmHow did you “take him out” ? Also, why do you think he did it in the first place ?
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Janma Says:
December 5th, 2007 at 12:51 pmsorry, I meant I took my son out of that school! LOL!
The only people in a position of authority I ever took out was the head of police in Gianyar, and WS Rendra.
I think he did it in the first place because that’s the way they teach. He was explaining something, my son didn’t understand, teacher got impatient, called him a celeng. that simple really. -
December 5th, 2007 at 12:55 pmAnd what about W.S. Rendra. A bit of a wanker, really. So why did you take out him ? And how ? If this isn’t too many questions…:-)
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Janma Says:
December 5th, 2007 at 1:08 pmThe police chief in gianyar was some young little fatty guy whose father was a general and he was such an ass! My neighbour was murdered and he was supposed to be handling the case. The murdered fellow was a good friend of mine and left behind a 15 year old daughter. we were called in for questioning and in this chiefs office were hundreds of bottles of confiscated liquor and the walls were lined with paintings of naked women….
HE didn’t even know the name of the murdered man, just tried real hard to pick up the 15 year old daughter once we were in his office….! Made me so mad I can tell you! She just lost her father, was an orphan and now this goon is trying to pick her up!???
I was at a loss as to how to ‘take him out’…. but then he gave me a way…
“You like my paintings missus?”
“Oh yeah, they’re lovely”
“You paint missus?”
“Actually I do!”
“Maybe you bring me one painting?”
“sure thing!”
Handed to me on a platter that was! I went straight home and painted this huge painting of him, sitting in his office, full uniform… feet up on desk, view out the window is of a church, a temple and a mosque all burning with people rioting in the street…. he has a bottle of bintang on his desk, a roll of toilet paper and he is staring into the distance, dick in hand, taking one off the wrist.
Sent it to police headquaters the next day. Created quite a stir I can tell you! but he was most polite to us from thereon in. -
December 5th, 2007 at 1:55 pmJanma.
You are a legend.
Achmad.
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December 5th, 2007 at 5:39 pmHanded to me on a platter that was! I went straight home and painted this huge painting of him, sitting in his office, full uniform”¦ feet up on desk, view out the window is of a church, a temple and a mosque all burning with people rioting in the street”¦. he has a bottle of bintang on his desk, a roll of toilet paper and he is staring into the distance, dick in hand, taking one off the wrist.
Sent it to police headquaters the next day. Created quite a stir I can tell you! but he was most polite to us from thereon in.Are you serious..sheesh..I am surprised you didn’t disappear or at least get offered a first class seat with orange juice on a garuda flight
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December 5th, 2007 at 9:25 pmJanma
Handed to me on a platter that was! I went straight home and painted this huge painting of him, sitting in his office, full uniform”¦ feet up on desk, view out the window is of a church, a temple and a mosque all burning with people rioting in the street”¦. he has a bottle of bintang on his desk, a roll of toilet paper and he is staring into the distance, dick in hand, taking one off the wrist.
What a shame we can’t post pictures in IM. If you have a digital copy send it to Patung so he can publish it in one of his topics.
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pj_bali Says:
December 5th, 2007 at 10:39 pmJanma
Great story. Remind me never to cross you haha!
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December 6th, 2007 at 11:35 amActually, I think we can post pictures on IM — Janma, please, please, can you post the pic ?? It’s a beautiful, beautiful story. I would love, love, love to see a local police chief humiliated like that. To me, they’re everything Hanna Arednt meant about, “the banality of Evil.”
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Janma Says:
December 6th, 2007 at 11:41 amThe painting was later returned to me by the police. (they wrapped it in newspaper) I then sold it in Australia to an Indonesian who owns a tattoo parlour. He has the painting. I will try and see if he’ll take a photo for me…..
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Patung Says:
December 6th, 2007 at 12:02 pmYou can put images in comments. Get a free account at http://photobucket.com/
Upload your images, http://photobucket.com/ will then give you the html code to put in your comment here, or you can do it manually, like:
Or you can just paste the link to an image, if it’s already hosted somewhere, like this,
http://www.indonesiamatters.com/images/kalla.jpg
and then we just click it.Or yes, just send me the image and I’ll stick it in here.
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Rambutan Says:
December 6th, 2007 at 12:53 pmBrilliant, Janma!! Now please tell us about you and Rendra!!!
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Janma Says:
December 6th, 2007 at 1:17 pmnah…. I had to edit that out (thanks patung) better left unsaid.
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December 6th, 2007 at 1:25 pmReductio ad absurdum is not a valid argument. Of course nobody advocates beating kids to death.
I posted a reasonable opinion piece, with serious examples of mayhem after corporal punishment was abolished in one region, and some cases of spoilt brats here who grew up to be vicious.When I was a kid, on the farm, I used to be mean to the ants in their ant-hill outside our house, just poking it with sticks till they all erupted, scurrying to and fro, no doubt growling and snarling in inaudible ant-voices.
Most posters here react in similar vein, and by chance those ants were red ones too.
Ogle favours us with his vengeful feelings for being punished at school, though is silent as to why he got whacked. But he’s right when he says ‘it just never ends with this guy.’ I shall continue to input non-left posts just to break up your monopoly.
Snobby Achmad, unwilling to argue with somebody he’s never laid eyes on but accuses of lurking in ‘filthy dives,’ lacking ‘personal hygiene’ and ‘using a rusty type-writer,’ all inaccurate, offers unreadable supercilious crap about how to write, which he is scarcely qualified to give. Then he makes light of pedophilia, and indeed tries to say that those of us who object to the promotion of an evil practice are themselves the deviants! By the same token,we anti-communists are presumably pushing a sneaky marxist agenda and our demands for real punishment for thugs is a cover for our own nefarious crimes.
Illogical, stuck-up, a person for whom no respect is due, hunkered down in his posh residence, looking down on all noraml folk outside his pampared sphere. Sad, really is poor Achmad, and his name-dropping of books he’s read, maybe, so erudite, and yet a foul-mouth.Can’t really believe he is Indonesian. -
December 6th, 2007 at 2:39 pmRossy-Poo,
* On pedophelia. Well, Ross, it’s just not really that controversial. 99.9 % (hopefully more) of people I know think it’s so nasty and twisted that the word “pedophilia” is a byword for mental illness and perversion. Saying “pedophilia’s bad,” is a bit like saying, “hitting grannies is bad,” or “stealing money from five-year olds,” is bad. So, ok, Ross: pedophelia’s bad. Happy ?
* On your writing, only onebook quoted and one article.
Article: “Politics and the English Language” by George Orwell.
Book: “Fowlers Guide to English Usage” by Fowler.
Please read them. Please.
Another couple of tips:
Supercilious: Ross, Ross, sunshine. Have you learned nothing ? Supercilious is a wanky, academic word, you’ve thrown in there to sound smarter. Ross, Ross, old boy, it’s the substance of an argument, not its window-dressing, that makes it compelling.
Nefarious crimes.: This is like “heinous sins.” Just say crimes, Ross. Don’t clutter up the sentence.
Happy to “debate” more once you’ve got on top of the few of the basics of communications.
Achmad.
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December 6th, 2007 at 2:47 pmP.S. Ross, just as Martin Luther King said some White men couldn’t take a Black man telling them how to be civilized, I don’t think you can take the truth - or language tips - from me, a Brown Man.
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December 7th, 2007 at 8:37 amNot quite- just find Indonesians polite, and can discuss without obscenities like w***y and w****er, nor do they make a habit of ignorant allegations about antagonists and decline to apologise when corrected.
You are glib, probably good enough to sell used cars, but hardly literate or educated enough to tell anyone how to communicate. I would be embarrassed if my posts were on the pedantic, nit-picking level that most of yours seem to be, though to be fair I see why that’s easier than rational argument.
Name-dropping, Orwell or Arendt, is not a substitute for debate, and besides I suspect most people have read more books, (in my case, all of Orwell’s, because they are fun to read) than you, judging from the shallowness of your input. Pick up some history or philosophy to read over the holidays.
Nefarious, by the way, like heinous, indicates a degree of seriousness in the crimes referred to, eg. a fine for double parking may be an offence, but it is neither heinous nor nefarious, whereas defamation of character, such as you delight in, is more heinous, indeed nefarious. Buy a dictionary; I’m sure you can afford it. -
December 7th, 2007 at 9:03 amRoss,
What’s there to debate ? You worked yourself up into a frenzy over the right to spank children. It’s not as if there is a shortage of other problems to worry about in Indonesia. Um, let’s think, the problems of a young democracy that’s trying to revive its economy, for start. There’s that little meeting in Bali this week, of course.
Here’s the debate: Some people think it’s ok to spank children. Some people don’t. Most people agree it’s not a good idea, if you do issue a light smack now and then, not to do it too hard. It’s hardly a case of “decadent” western practices being forced upon the Third World. There are just bigger things going on the world, Rossy.
Mastering intermediate English will help you opine on the issues.
Worlds like nefarious and heinous aren’t wrong. They’re just bad usage, bad taste, like that stained and tattered Batik shirt you wear to every social function, embarrassing the locals with pidgeon Bahasa Indonesia,while you elbow your way to the last dregs of free Bir Bintang.
In these posts, I’m actually giving you, Ross, a spanking by taking your stuffy conservatism and sticking it in the place were you usually sit.
The advice doesn’t come from me, Achmad Sudarsono. It comes from the acknowledged greats of English usage.
A bit more help for you.
Ross’s version:I would be embarrassed if my posts were on the pedantic, nit-picking level that most of yours seem to be, though to be fair I see why that’s easier than rational argument.
Name-dropping, Orwell or Arendt, is not a substitute for debate, and besides I suspect most people have read more books, (in my case, all of Orwell’s, because they are fun to read) than you, judging from the shallowness of your input.Achmad’s version:
I would be embarrassed if my posts were on the pedantic, nit-picking level of most of yours. To be fair, though, I can see why it’s easier than rational argument.
(I’d actually say crappy rhetoric’s easier than reason).
Name-dropping, Orwell or Arendt, is not a substtitute for debate. I suspect most people have read more books, given the shallowness of your input. (I’ve read all of Orwells, because they are fun).
As you can see, Ross, my versions are snappier, clearer, and have better usage than your verbose and cluttered rantings. This exchange is a bit like Mozart and Salieri in the film Amadeus, where Mozart composes a variation on a tune by the plodder Salieri. Enjoy.
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December 7th, 2007 at 11:13 amOgle favours us with his vengeful feelings for being punished at school, though is silent as to why he got whacked.
Does it matter, perhaps I was not as smart to pick things up as fast as should have, perhaps I was plain naughty. I certainly make no bones that some teachers really make a positive difference on my learning, others (too many) were just life’s little failures.
Doesn’t really matter, a bully is a bully. As I said the point was proven some years later, Funny part was he cried as an adult, I never did as a child. As I said before, if some arse belts my child then he had better be prepared to stand and deliver with someone his own size (or in my case probably bigger).
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December 10th, 2007 at 8:48 am‘my versions are snappier, clearer…’ hey, Big-head and Non-Indonesian -no way would any local show such insufferable arrogance. Take stock of yourself. You are reduced to to insults about my shirts, which you have seen none of, since we do not mix in the same circles. Some of us work, for a start, which means we don’t have more than a few short breaks per week to reply to your almost daily, and increasingly hysterical, postings.
re batik- I have about six, none of them stained, and a social function that lets the likes of you past the door would have little attraction for normal folk. When you grow up sufficiently to argue like a civilised person, submit something coherent so it can be debated.
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