Military Coup

Nov 2nd, 2007, in IM Posts, by

Little chance of a military coup in Indonesia.

Alfred C. Stepan, Professor of Government from Columbia University in New York, said in Jakarta on 29th October that the TNI, the Indonesian military, would not follow the "trend" in south east Asia of staging a military coup d'etat, like in Thailand, or previously in Burma.

I've been to several south east Asian countries and their situation is worse.

Speaking before Defence minister Juwono Sudarsono Stepan said Indonesia's transformation and its reform of the military's role in politics has been an outstanding success.

Rethinking Military Politics
Rethinking Military Politics, by Stepan.

Since 1998 the military had had several opportunities to seize power, he said, but had refrained from doing so and even had played a constructive role in, for example, the peace process in Aceh.

Indonesia was particularly blessed by the presence of organisations like Nahdlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah, he said, because they created a strong civil society, and comparable nations like India, Pakistan, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile, had nothing like them, and they likely placed a check on any soldierly aspirations to take power. [1] [2]


22 Comments on “Military Coup”

  1. avatar Arema says:
    November 2nd, 2007 at 8:56 am

    Uhm, the military are already in power… so why they need a coup d’etat?

  2. avatar Janma says:
    November 2nd, 2007 at 10:13 am

    That’s why Gus Dur was ousted…. cause he ‘messed wit the military men’.

  3. avatar Raden says:
    November 2nd, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    Alfred’s analyses maybe based on western framework of what is the definition of ‘a successsful transformation’ is ? In my view there are many other measurements before abruptly we come to conclussion of ‘ successful transformation ‘. The fact GOLKAR and those ‘purnawirawan’ who commited attrocities in the past remain influential today, this is just one of contra-productive transformation outcome, don’t mention the today indications of the economic & socio politic aspects of it.

  4. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 3rd, 2007 at 2:55 am

    This is a message. A message from the Uncle Sam. The message clearly stipulated that American is in control of the Indonesian Government by saying that Indonesia will not stage a coup d’etat with this:

    TNI, the Indonesian military, would not follow the “trend” in south east Asia of staging a military coup d’etat, like in Thailand, or previously in Burma.

    I’ve been to several south east Asian countries and their situation is worse

    This is however true because they were so severely oppressed by the military junta. Comparing that with Indonesia was a far cry taking in terms of the economic development where Burma is still not a developed country. Comparing to Thailand is still the same but the difference is that the accused Thaksin had mass manipulated the country’s economic for his personal gain and that angers the public. As it had been the norm that Thailand will always stage a coup to oust someone in power. go back into history and it will show a clear pattern of their military takeover.
    The main intention of the 98 coup was to close the rich poor gap, seizing power, get the old regime impeached, more corruption and paving way to major Islam in this country by repeating a genocide similar to 65 pogrom with a varying degree.

    Stepan said Indonesia’s transformation and its reform of the military’s role in politics has been an outstanding success.

    This is exactly what the Qing Dynasty did when Emperess Dowager split the power bestowed upon the Military Supreme Commander to refrain them from collaborating with a certain party to attaining an overwhelming majority in military manouver that is the Ming revolt.
    It also indicated that Wiranto had successfully been manipulated by Uncle Sam to split the army, which Suharto refuse, and place the blame on Prabowo. Though Prabowo was thought to have been craving for the top post which he failed to get support from others.

    military refrained from doing so and even had played a constructive role in, for example, the peace process in Aceh

    Is Aceh peaceful? What kind of s**t analysis is this? Aceh demanded for indpendence and was granted autonomy because of groups fighting for the natural resources controlled by majority of the foreigners (US). They simply refuse to share among the Indonesian community and GAM emerge as a sidekick to press the Central government into giving in. And now to further ensure that this place becomes uninhabitable to non Muslim thus Sharia Law was also permitted with the blessing of the Central government.
    Is that peaceful?

    presence of organisations like Nahdlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah, he said, because they created a strong civil society

    NU yes but Muhamadiyah! I don’t think so. Just see how Amien Rais reacted at the earlier stage and you will find out. When you conceive an intention and was unable to exert it in political field it mean that it was beyond his reach not because he didn’t want it. A highly successful politician will not use his pawns as baits like AR who once threatened to bring a million person long march to the istana but stop short of being shot at.

    This is very strongly shown that the US is in control of Indonesia’s Military and political scene.

    The US was refuse the use of Indonesia as a Naval Base by ex VP Try Sutrisno and they were trying very hard to get into the scene outright seem unable therefore it just appeared behind the scene considering the fact that Soviet is getting into Indonesia whom at earlier times had never express interest in Indonesia at all except Military assistance and trainings.

    This also says it is not a good sign. Why? Read the http://www.exodusnews.com US Kept Silent and manifesto for Chinese at http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn.

    So whatever JS said is hereby supported by the US because something is about to happen in the near future. Something fishy.

    Why didn’t the US leash Sharia Law in the US but encourage the Aceh in Indonesia?
    Not because of the majority of Muslims inhabitant there. Since it was said the Shaira law is a way of religious teaching to guide their followers so why not the US. China and Malaysia had it which limit to their own ethnic and not others.
    What the US is implying is that as long as their interest in Aceh is protected and the safety of their people were guaranteed and GAM contained they will encourage even if it discriminates others. Because the US has no jurisdiction over Indonesia.

    The politic they are playing is “Yang penting urusan saya tidak terganggu, yang lain kami tidak peduli”.

  5. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 4th, 2007 at 3:22 am

    I had just receive news that this Jack S is being subpoena by the MPR for questioning pertinent to his involvement in the recent arms deal that shows sign that he was implicated in under table deal.
    His deal was abruptly interrupted by the MPR who vetoed his decision on arms deal and also showed that he might be involve in corruption.
    So much so for his speech and a short lived praise by this guy stephan.
    This is the kind of hypocracy that is always in the blood of these political elite of Indonesia. No matter who he is.

  6. avatar Pakmantri says:
    November 4th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    Wanted to know about Juwono Sudarsono?

    Here is his website/blogs:

    http://juwonosudarsono.com/wordpress/index.php

  7. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 5th, 2007 at 2:25 am

    So what about JS, there is nothing that he had achieve so far.

    Trying to trace and compare Thailand or Burma to Indonesia has nothing to do with corruption and political onslaught. Culturally and politically they are entirely two different issue.

    I see many political elite from Indonesia doing the same kind of distraction tactic all the time. When a person is under suspicion or being sought after for something he was suspected to be involved, they tend to bring up another issue to create a distraction.

    Same thing for everybody, Silalahi, Yusril, JK, Habibie, Wiranto etc.

    Never help the situation at all. It is like putting dye into a glas of muddy water.

  8. avatar naga says:
    November 7th, 2007 at 2:59 am

    Dragonwall,

    Are you on drugs?

    And if so, can I have the phone number of your dealer please?

    The USA has ZERO inlfuence over the TNI and Indonesian government; if they did, Suharto would still be in power ensuring that many US assets (read mining and oil) would be remain untouchable as opposed to the utter chaos which reigns over the current Indonesian business environment.

    If the US government had the influence you say it does, do you think the criminals in the govt and police force would have been able to get away with the Newmont scandal?

    Wiranto is despised by the US and would be fronting the Hague for his war crimes, if not for political protection by SBY; the US govt maintains an arms and education embargo against the TNI for a reason you know.

    Like many of your fellow, uneducated countrymen, you are obsessed with xenophobic conspiracy theories with gives credence to unproven and poorly researched analysis, like your ridiculous theory regarding Aceh.

    The US has virtually no interest in Aceh whatsover, and many US oil firms are reducing their exposure because the area has ALREADY been exploited. Just look at the way local cukongs and pribumi run-businesses treat their employees and local communities and tell me if they do anything worse than foreign firms.

    Foreign firms have no choice but to play by the manipulated and self serving rules, which are constantly changed to serve the lndo govt, local firms do not.

    Aceh is a complete mess because of Javanese interference and mis-management, just like the rest of the archipelago, you need to do a hell of a lot more research…..

  9. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 7th, 2007 at 6:20 am

    Do I suppose you were that highly educated? and other so called fellow were under educated? And that you really knows more about Aceh?

    Tell us how many oil exploration were there and dominated by whom? Have you read the declassified CIA documents indicating that the CIA were in Indonesia before and after the riot of 98 and that they were meeting people like Wiranto and Prabowo?

    How much do you know about politics?

    When Suharto took powere he had the US at his back. Before his fall there were the US poking a finger into Indonesian affairs that caused the riot. Then the riot. US kept silence of the discrimination, Why? Then the US accuse the TNI were the police and culprit of the riot. Tell us which factors in all these incidents the US didn’t have a hand.

    You were the like the same bunch of craps thinking your knowledge into Aceh were the first hand info that no one else had.

    Read more before you start commenting. When you comment come right to the point where it really hurts. The discrimination, the Sharia and all those craps really hurts. I suppose you were the one high on drugs to really say the US did not have a hand in Indonesian affairs.

    Understandable that the explorations might come to a point where US, whose presence were threatened by the Muslims in Aceh, to find it less attractive to continue weighing the fear and money factor.

    But have you not heard that the US still wants to go into Aceh? For Palm oil? The Russians were coming into Indonesia for what? Investments!

    The USA has ZERO inlfuence over the TNI and Indonesian government

    On the surface, maybe. Get high.

  10. avatar naga says:
    November 9th, 2007 at 1:22 am

    “Do I suppose you were that highly educated? and other so called fellow were under educated? And that you really knows more about Aceh?”

    YES and YES….

    “Tell us how many oil exploration were there and dominated by whom? Have you read the declassified CIA documents indicating that the CIA were in Indonesia before and after the riot of 98 and that they were meeting people like Wiranto and Prabowo?”

    HAVE YOU READ THE CLASSIFIED CIA DOCUMENTS?

    WHAT A RIDICULOUS STATEMENT……

    US OIL FIRMS HAVE BEEN THERE FOR 100YRS, THE RESERVES ARE DRYING UP; DO YOU GET THIS?

    How much do you know about politics?

    MORE THAN YOU OBVIOUSLY..

    When Suharto took powere he had the US at his back. Before his fall there were the US poking a finger into Indonesian affairs that caused the riot. Then the riot. US kept silence of the discrimination, Why? Then the US accuse the TNI were the police and culprit of the riot. Tell us which factors in all these incidents the US didn’t have a hand.

    DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT OF EVIDENCE?

    EVIDENCE PROVES THE TNI WERE INVOLVED IN THE RIOTS, MOST EDUCATED INDONESIANS DO…

    JUST EXACTLY HOW DID THE US POKING INDONESIAN AFFAIRS PROVOKE THE RIOT?

    THE USA ‘KEPT SILENT’ BECAUSE THAT IS CALLED POKING INTO INDO AFFAIRS; SUHARTO WAS KEPT IN POWER BECAUSE STABILITY WAS BETTER THAN ANARCHY: THIS PROTECTS INVESTMENTS AND LIVELIHOODS, NAMELY INDONESIAN…

    “You were the like the same bunch of craps thinking your knowledge into Aceh were the first hand info that no one else had.

    Read more before you start commenting. When you comment come right to the point where it really hurts. The discrimination, the Sharia and all those craps really hurts. I suppose you were the one high on drugs to really say the US did not have a hand in Indonesian affairs.

    THIS RUBBISH MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOVER, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?

    Understandable that the explorations might come to a point where US, whose presence were threatened by the Muslims in Aceh, to find it less attractive to continue weighing the fear and money factor.

    But have you not heard that the US still wants to go into Aceh? For Palm oil? The Russians were coming into Indonesia for what? Investments!

    THE USA HAS NO INTEREST IN PALM OIL WHATSOVER; WHY WOULD THEY? WHEN THEY HAVE AN OLIGARCHY REGARDING WORLD OIL TECHNOLOGY/EXPLORATION/EXPLOITATION AND MARKETING?

    PARTICULARLY WHEN OIL PRICES ARE HIGH..

    YOU NEED TO STOP BELEIVING IN BLACK MAGIC AND SUPERSTITION AND START BELIEVING IN COLLATING EVIDENCE AND IMPARTIAL ANALYSIS

    I KNOW IT’S HARD, YOU’RE INDONESIAN…

  11. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 9th, 2007 at 3:55 am

    YES and YES”¦.

    Maybe I am less educated than you are. Tell us how well educated you are? Phd in Political Science perhaps? And how much do you know about Aceh.

    HAVE YOU READ THE CLASSIFIED CIA DOCUMENTS?
    WHAT A RIDICULOUS STATEMENT”¦”¦DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT OF EVIDENCE?

    I said DECLASSIFIED…read carefully DECLASSIFIED.. Don’t put words in my mouth.
    Of course!. So is that a ridiculous statement!.. Please… go more into the internet and make some research about US and CIA in Indonesia’s politic

    US OIL FIRMS HAVE BEEN THERE FOR 100YRS, THE RESERVES ARE DRYING UP; DO YOU GET THIS?

    Of course and that is why they are trying to get into Aceh for the Palm Oil Plantations

    I wrote

    Understandable that the explorations might come to a point where US, whose presence were threatened by the Muslims in Aceh, to find it less attractive to continue weighing the fear and money factor.

    This is also one of the reason when they find that the oil may or could have been depleted that they have find an alternative as a guise.
    I do not think you are reading things well enough to considered yourself Well Educated!

    JUST EXACTLY HOW DID THE US POKING INDONESIAN AFFAIRS PROVOKE THE RIOT

    Didn’t you read a report that says that the CIA had dropped xx millions of dollars to someone by the name of ABN, (a white haried lawyer) which he openly denied, that cause the loss of xx billions in damage due to the riot!

    THE USA ‘KEPT SILENT’ BECAUSE THAT IS CALLED POKING INTO INDO AFFAIRS

    When you asked this question, it seemed to me you know nothing about Indonesian politics except read about in the news. That’s it.

    When I said the US kept silence, US SECRETARY OF STATE ALBRIGHT MADE COMMENTS ON THE DISCRIMINATION IN BURMA AND THAILANND BUT KEPT QUIET ABOUT DESCRIMINATION IN INDONESIA. UNDERSTAND.

    THIS RUBBISH MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOVER, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY

    Honestly speaking are you Chinese or Pri? Indonesian or not?
    Does discrimination hurts? Does Sharia Law hurts? I mean everybody whose daily life are affected.

    THE USA HAS NO INTEREST IN PALM OIL WHATSOVER; WHY WOULD THEY? WHEN THEY HAVE AN OLIGARCHY REGARDING WORLD OIL TECHNOLOGY/EXPLORATION/EXPLOITATION AND MARKETING? PARTICULARLY WHEN OIL PRICES ARE HIGH..

    That is why they are looking for an alternative. What had technology got to do with natural resources. I suppose this is your belief in black magic transforming technology in natural resource. Can you produce gasoline and diesel without crude?

    That is why I said

    But have you not heard that the US still wants to go into Aceh? For Palm oil?

    Didn’t you hear of someone proposing to invest in Palm Oil in Aceh?

    SUHARTO WAS KEPT IN POWER BECAUSE STABILITY WAS BETTER THAN ANARCHY: THIS PROTECTS INVESTMENTS AND LIVELIHOODS

    THEN WHY THE RIOT AND REFORMASI IF, NAMELY INDONESIANS KNOWS THAT THE END RESULTS WILL BE THAT DEVASTATING AND IRREPARABLE?

    BY ANALYZING YOUR COMMENTS, I DARE SAY YOU ARE NOT THAT WELL EDUCATED AT ALL AND KNEW LITTLE ABOUT INDONESIAN AND AMERICAN POLITICS.
    GO LEARN MORE OF COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AND POLITICAL SETBACKS BEFORE YOU SAY YOU KNOW MORE THAN OTHERS ABOUT ACEH AND INDONESIA.

    AND ONE MORE THING I AM NOT INDONESIAN MYSELF. MY CHILDRENS ARE. AND THAT IS WHY I KEPT A CLOSE VIGIL ON INDONESIAN POLITICS.

  12. avatar Pakmantri says:
    November 9th, 2007 at 5:09 am

    naga said:

    I KNOW IT’S HARD, YOU’RE INDONESIAN”¦

    Wow, excuse me ………………… you are saying????

  13. avatar naga says:
    November 10th, 2007 at 4:58 am

    “I said DECLASSIFIED”¦read carefully DECLASSIFIED.. Don’t put words in my mouth”

    you are correct, my mistake; i apologise.

    You mean the documents referring to circa 1958? and the early 60′s?

    CIA ops were designed to crush regional rebellions and interest was focusd on anti-communism, not destabilising the country; again, there is no evidence and certainly no avaiable documents that allege or prove CIA involvement in the 98 riots.

    “Of course and that is why they are trying to get into Aceh for the Palm Oil Plantations”

    Seriously, you make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and seem to have a myopic view of word geo-politics; the USA has access to every oil market in the world, production is booming, demand is high as are prices, so why on earth would they be interested in an unproven market, with zero demand and potential high costs?

    Why?

    Have you stopped to think about this?

    Moreover, can you provide an articulate explanation?

    “This is also one of the reason when they find that the oil may or could have been depleted that they have find an alternative as a guise.
    I do not think you are reading things well enough to considered yourself Well Educated!”

    Perhaps that is because you are not writing well enough to be comprehended; you need a native english speaker to review your writing…

    “Didn’t you read a report that says that the CIA had dropped xx millions of dollars to someone by the name of ABN, (a white haried lawyer”

    Another unfounded allegation; where is your proof?

    i’ll give you a hint, providing sources is a good thing, it’s a fundamental tenet of education.

    “When I said the US kept silence, US SECRETARY OF STATE ALBRIGHT MADE COMMENTS ON THE DISCRIMINATION IN BURMA AND THAILANND BUT KEPT QUIET ABOUT DESCRIMINATION IN INDONESIA. UNDERSTAND.”

    Perhaps you would have been better off explaining that earlier, and the US govt kept silent over the recent problems in Burma too, they didn’t lift a finger over ethnic discrimination in Burma for the last 20yrs; nor did they regarding Bumiputra/Chinese discrimination in Malaysia, nor Han/non-Han discrimination in mainland China; nor ethnic Lao/ non ethnic Lao or the Laotion’s govt policy of rural genocide.

    There are plenty of instances where the US govt has kept silent, because the unwritten rule in world diplomacy is not to discuss countries internal affairs, and you learn about that by travelling there, not just by reading a token article off the internet; your knowledge of world affairs is very shallow.

    “What had technology got to do with natural resources. I suppose this is your belief in black magic transforming technology in natural resource. Can you produce gasoline and diesel without crude?”

    Are you serious?

    Technology discovers natural resources where previously undiscovered; in case you hadn’t noticed, the world is over-crowded and the resources are getting scarcer by the day; hence the use of technology, the fact you don’t know this is remarkable.

    “THEN WHY THE RIOT AND REFORMASI IF, NAMELY INDONESIANS KNOWS THAT THE END RESULTS WILL BE THAT DEVASTATING AND IRREPARABLE?”

    History has proven that Indonesian elites have used street level hoodlums and organised militias to destroy Indonesian society for short term material gains over and over again; the fact you don’t know this exposes your limited knowledge of the place; for instance, examine the early rebellions in Java, Sumatra and Sulawesi.

    Also look at the artificially created wars in Central Sulawesi and Maluku during Gus Dur’s tenure; the military orchestrated both of them, just as they did in 1998. How could you not know this?

    “BY ANALYZING YOUR COMMENTS, I DARE SAY YOU ARE NOT THAT WELL EDUCATED AT ALL AND KNEW LITTLE ABOUT INDONESIAN AND AMERICAN POLITICS.”

    I leave you for dead when it comes to political analysis regarding Indonesian and US politics; please feel free to ask me anything specific about either and i will more than gladly accomodate you; and no, i won’t be charging you for your education.

    “GO LEARN MORE OF COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AND POLITICAL SETBACKS BEFORE YOU SAY YOU KNOW MORE THAN OTHERS ABOUT ACEH AND INDONESIA.”

    Read my statement above and ditto….

    “AND ONE MORE THING I AM NOT INDONESIAN MYSELF. MY CHILDRENS ARE. AND THAT IS WHY I KEPT A CLOSE VIGIL ON INDONESIAN POLITICS.”

    That’s why its all the more important that you actually learn something first before offering ridiculous, ignorant, unresearched generalisations about the country; god knows what you are teaching your children.

    Again, feel free to ask me anything about Indonesian politics and i will assist you grashopper….

  14. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 11th, 2007 at 4:10 am

    So this grasshopper is referring to someone who had been in the country for 19 years?

    CIA ops were designed to crush regional rebellions and interest was focusd on anti-communism, not destabilising the country

    So please teel the Indonesians what business has the CIA or the US got in Indonesia if they are not into destabilizing the country which is a contrary to what you know about politic. Only when you destabilize a country indirectly and when they find the situation had gone out of control the US will come forward and say “Hey, don’t worry you have this Big Brother Uncle Sam to back you up. All you need is to give us something then we will help”. Wasn’t that was what the US was looking for, a US Base after they were told to leave Angeles? So how could that be from circa 58 when things hapenned after 65. Since you have that much indepth knowledge in US politics.
    And another is how about Soros part in the 1996? Did you really think that his Quantum Fund was capable of toppling and sabotaging and causing the Asian economy to collapse without the US Treasury backing him up. How about asking him to step into Malaysia or Singapore and we will see how the two government will treat him and we see what happened to him. I really meant the ISA (Internal security Act) and we will see if the US government is capable of helping him out. Well he is a Jew so he I suppose he is smart enought to stay clear from these areas.

    The US were making every effort to try and secure a base in Asia and this is open secret. That is if you really understand military manouvre.

    When I said the US were proposing to invest in Indonesia in Palm Oil it ended with a question mark. And that meant investing in Palm Oil is secondary whereas their primiary intention was as above.

    There are plenty of instances where the US govt has kept silent, because the unwritten rule in world diplomacy is not to discuss countries internal affairs

    And with this you claimed to know so much about your and Indonesian politics? When the world is crying out loud? Come on you can do better than that. So what then about freedom of speech and freedom of information that was championed by the US?

    The natural resources were already there and is almost at the end of depletion, so you mean your technology could bring in more natural resources after it was depleted? Or did you failed to understand that most of the Sumatra’s exploration grid from sout to north had already beend explored from donkey years back before the US by the Dutch. And that many of those wells were capped because they were found to be inviable? Did you ever had an opportunity to take a look at those sites from the Mines and Energy Department. Tell me then if you got hold of that.

    It is understandable technology is a must, but you are saying only the US has it and no one else? You will still need the crude from oil, and palm oil to process with technology. Japan has one hell of technology that the US was interested in. Hydrocracking is no longer a new tech at all, okay.

    The military uses whoever they can get hold of is just a side kick. So the ulterior motive is material gain? Drop dead. There has been a sever discrimination since 1740 during the Dutch colonial and there has been a pattern of genocide over the years against the Chinese. So what kind of material motive are you referring to? And you dare say that Gus Dur had an artificial war created in Sulawesi and Maluku?

    News reported that Adnan Buyong Nasution had received xx millions from the US which he denied having taken before the 98 riot. Most Asian knows about this. Frankly speaking does anybody knows whether is that real or not I am still baffled as it looks like an inside job to me. And you still find it hard to believe that the CIA was in contact with Wiranto and Prabowo before the riot was hard for you to dig? And that also shows your research into Indonesian Internal affairs were even more shallow.

    When I say this

    I AM NOT INDONESIAN MYSELF

    I knew you would speculate on this.

    That’s why its all the more important that you actually learn something first before offering ridiculous, ignorant, unresearched generalisations about the country;

    I had two kids and both of them top the class when they started schooling. How I teach my children the guess is yours.

    Anyway were you in the military service before? If you did, then the time you spent were of wasted days and wasted nights. Or perhaps you might have been a ex embassy staff. Nonetheless I still find the time you spent will not exceed the time I had spent working in Indonesia.

    So much for your hopping and hoping. I really mean if you live in hope you die in despair.

    One more thing, this was what that was reported in Indonesian Revolution 1998.

    American Defence Secretary William Cohen was in Jakarta in January 1998, where he visited both Prabowo and Wiranto. The CIA chief had also been a recent visitor to Jakarta. The CIA and the Pentagon were close to both Prabowo and Wiranto.

    Why? So that they could advice the two not to fight for power? So that they could make Indonesia a better place to live?

    You believe, I don’t. So much for your politics.

    And this is what I deemed of a counter military intelligence act.

    The US State Department and many human rights groups have strongly argued that the Indonesian military and police participated and incited the rioting and violence against Sino-Indonesians.

    You know like killing a person and putting the blame on others.

    When Soros came into Asia to sabotage the Asian economic, somehow or rather he was perhaps provided with inside intelligence information that the Five Up and Coming Tigers of Aisa is about to emerge into world economic powerhouse.

    It is like fighting a war when you start attacking and had placed all the country’s economy into action at full fledge leaving a vacuum in the currency vulnerable to economic attack. And when such attack was carried out they were helpless because every thing was pump into the economy and fully utilized. Back up came a little too late. Whereas Malaysia was shaken because of their quite solid foundation but they didn’t want to be the one losing so they bit back by pegging their currency. Singapore was not shaken because also of their strong and conservative economic foundation as well as a strong hold on their own currency leaving them with little room for error. But nonetheless there was still some bruise they suffered that cause the economy to slow down.

    I had earlier said the US was in the dificit of some 30 T in the 90′s when after the 96 they square of. It was predicted that they pass out IOU to temporary secure the situation which will expire somewhere around 2016. Now the US economy is already beginning to rattle amidst a slow US economy and a high fuel cost. The US economy could probably collapse around 2015 or earlier. Look at the Australian dollars against rupiahs it is almost on par with the US.

  15. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 2:16 am

    Hey, come on where are your politics? I am dying to hear more about your so called expert analysis in Indonesian politics so that we could see how good you are.

    Come on don’t die on me. You asked for proof so stop hopping around or is that my english needs a native to help me comprehend or was that not proof enough?

    Still needs time to research! It should have been in your head and not checking on your home work.

    Veteran Day is over!

  16. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 2:43 am

    One thing I find about some writers in these blogs were empty vessels nothing solid.

    I can’t say I am that good in politics or economy but one should use more common sense and put something up that is useful, like I once said that I hoped some of the Indonesian politician could visit these blogs to understand the view of general public concern about Indonesian affairs. But definitely not something embiquous.

    Everything needs proof otherwise you are as good as farting nonsense.

  17. avatar naga says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 11:11 pm

    “providing sources is a good thing, it’s a fundamental tenet of education.”

    Did you miss this bit, or did you conveniently ignore it, like all the other well-written points i made above?

    You are obsessed with generalisations, conspiracy theories and plain untruths…

    “Wasn’t that was what the US was looking for, a US Base after they were told to leave Angeles”

    No, they weren’t; the US has had secure relations in Thailand, Singapore and Australia for decades and have no need for large bases in Asia, since they are too costly to maintain and only need transit points; all secure communications and electronic espionage is run out of secure Australian bases, not Asia, because Australia is the ONLY ally they can trust; this is a well-known open source fact; the fact you don’t know this is NOT surprising.

    “another is how about Soros part in the 1996?”

    You’re kidding right, no seriously, this is part of the joke yea?

    What Soros did may have been morally reprehensible, but he was a big player in a free, capitalist market, he was allowed to do what he did; the fact that Asian govts and markets weren’t structured properly, or weren’t mature enough to handle the backlash is not Soros’ fault, he was an opportunist who took advantage of the marktet conditions as any capitalist would, and he doesn’t need any govt assistance to do this.

    Asian markets got hammered because they were structurally inable to cope, not because of some bizarre grand conspiracy. Singsapore handled the crisis because they had large reserves (over 100million USD) and could defend their currency, unlike Indonesia; again, the fact you don’t know this is NOT surprising.

    “When I said the US were proposing to invest in Indonesia in Palm Oil it ended with a question mark. And that meant investing in Palm Oil is secondary whereas their primiary intention was as above.”

    A complete load of rubbish, using palm oil as a guise to really secure military bases…lol, c’mon, you cannot be serious…

    The Chinese (both Indo and foreign) have a virtual monopoly on the palm oil industry, it worth nothing on the world market and they only propose to make palm oil plantations to illegallly log all the resources; again, the fact you don’t know is not surprising.

    “The natural resources were already there and is almost at the end of depletion, so you mean your technology could bring in more natural resources after it was depleted?”

    Did you actually comprehend what was written about this? it is explicitly clear; technology is used to find resources in previously had to get places. To suggest that technology finds resources to ‘bring in more’ as you allude to exposes your dubious thought processes and poor reserach skills, in addition to your poor grammar and expression.

    Don’t let emotion cloud your judgement, i know your taking a beating here and your credibilty is shot, but try and stay on track.

    “…but you are saying only the US has it and no one else..”

    WHERE DID I SAY THIS?

    PLEASE SHOW ME…

    “There has been a sever discrimination since 1740 during the Dutch colonial and there has been a pattern of genocide over the years against the Chinese..”

    There has NEVER been a policy of genocide against the Chinese; the Dutch, Soekarno and Suharto and his ORBA cronies all openly courted ‘cukong’ for their own benefit, its pretty hard to take advantage of something when it doesn’t exist, you complete idiot.

    It is arguable there has been genocides perpetrated against the Achenese, Timorese and Papuans, perhaps you are better off explaining these…

    “Anyway were you in the military service before? If you did, then the time you spent were of wasted days and wasted nights. Or perhaps you might have been a ex embassy staff. Nonetheless I still find the time you spent will not exceed the time I had spent working in Indonesia. “

    Perhaps, and i have been exposed to far more about the intracacies of business, politics and other issues than you have; it is plainly obvious. The only thing wasted here is your breath and for all ‘your years’ spent working in Indonesia, you make it painfully clear you have learned nothing, but i suppose you wouldn’t learn anything being the low-level menial peon that you are…

    So what if Cohen met with Prabowo and Wiranto with the CIA chief?

    So what ?

    High level contact between dignitaries happens all the time, where you at the meeting? do you know what was being discussed?

    You don’t, so how can you speculate?

    It is perfectly reasonable that these people spoke to W and P during the crisis, given the chaos.

    “And you dare say that Gus Dur had an artificial war created in Sulawesi and Maluku?”

    You total idiot, i never said that; for you information please refer to below:

    “Also look at the artificially created wars in Central Sulawesi and Maluku during Gus Dur’s tenure; the military orchestrated both of them, just as they did in 1998..”

    Did that refresh your memory?

    “When Soros came into Asia to sabotage the Asian economic, somehow or rather he was perhaps provided with inside intelligence information that the Five Up and Coming Tigers of Aisa is about to emerge into world economic powerhouse.”

    This is a complete load of rubbish, all ASEAN nations have a level of antipathy and jealousy towards each other, they can’t agree on anything at an ASEAN meeting and to suggest they were ABOUT to form a powerhouse is ludicrous; again, it exposes your ridiculous line of thinking. Singapore would never stand for an equal economic playing field, they thrive on the chaos of Indonesia.

    Hopefully you just learned something, swallow your pride and admit it. It will taste bitter and you will feel shamed, but you will be a better person for having done so; i can’t wait for your next idiotic and inarticulate response.

  18. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 14th, 2007 at 2:24 am

    You look so pathetic when I lookthrough your grandmother’s story like ……

    The fact you don’t know is not surprising, No they weren’t, Singapore has a reserve of 100 Million USD, regarding soros’ part, regarding the US and CIA’s part, there has never been a policy of genocide against the Chinese, So what, you total idiot, poor grammar, and next idiotic and inarticulate response…

    I have this for you. THAT YOU ARE THE GREATEST F88K88G IGNORANT IDIOT.

    THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION OF GRAMMAR BUT COMMON SENSE AND MATTERS THAT HAPENNED AND THE DISCRIMINATIONS IN INDONESIA.

    YOU HAVE DISPLAYED A PENCHANT FOR DEFENDING BY IGNORING MANY THINGS.

    SIMPLY QUESTION, WOULD YOU PREFER A PIE OR HALF A CAKE. yOU THINK YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO KNEW ABOUT THAT!

    AND THE COMMENTS YOU MADE ON ASEAN WILL MAKE EVERYBODY LAUGH. LAUGHING AT THE FACT YOU HAD DISPLAYED YOUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS A REALITY BY SAYING OTHERS ARE MERELY PUTTING UP CONJECTURE.

    lIKE i SAID YOU LIVE HOPE YOU WILL DIE IN DESPAIR.

    I ALSO FIND THAT FURTHER TALKING TO IDIOTIC AMF LIKE YOU MAKE ME SICK BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO ENDS TO IT.

    PLEASE GO SUCK AN EGG.

  19. avatar David says:
    November 14th, 2007 at 2:55 am

    Well, just a note to both Dragonwall and Naga, next time anyone writes LIKE THIS, the comment gets deleted. I mean in all upper case letters.

  20. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 14th, 2007 at 4:07 am

    Let me say this to you naga:

    Someone had earlier said, you will not win an arguments by calling names. What I am trying to express is if I am to quote and unquote all those stuffs it will no ends to your arguments and since you said that you are so good, why not check this up yourself:
    http://www.greenleft.org.au/2000/406/23611
    http://www.sinica.edu.tw/~capas/publication/newsletter/n27/2702_02.pdf
    http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2007/04/12/12/2503654.htm
    http://www.indonesianmatters.com/1409/palm-oil/

    It will saves some trouble.

    And one more thing your grammar didn’t do that well either. And so that you understand by expressing so tediously you have made me a far better person than you. Afterall

    “providing sources is a good thing, it’s a fundamental tenet of education.”

    Sorry Patung missed out something.
    “SUCK AN EGG = TETEIN = NOT GROWN UP”
    “AMF = ANY MORE FREAKS” BESIDES THE 888′S

  21. avatar naga says:
    November 14th, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    “You look so pathetic when I lookthrough your grandmother’s story like “¦”¦

    The fact you don’t know is not surprising, No they weren’t, Singapore has a reserve of 100 Million USD, regarding soros’ part, regarding the US and CIA’s part, there has never been a policy of genocide against the Chinese, So what, you total idiot, poor grammar, and next idiotic and inarticulate response”¦”

    What on earth does this mean? You have cut and pasted different comments and then added your own inane comments; my grammar and expression are light years above yours.

    Patung have you seens this?

    What is your point Dragonwall?

    “I have this for you. THAT YOU ARE THE GREATEST F88K88G IGNORANT IDIOT. “

    Oh really, prove it….

    “THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION OF GRAMMAR BUT COMMON SENSE AND MATTERS THAT HAPENNED AND THE DISCRIMINATIONS IN INDONESIA.”

    Then why have you failed to address any of my points with facts and/or reason?

    “YOU HAVE DISPLAYED A PENCHANT FOR DEFENDING BY IGNORING MANY THINGS.”

    No i haven’t, i have addressed ALL your points with counter-facts and reason, but you continue to ignore this, why?

    Because you have been exposed, you know zero…

    “SIMPLY QUESTION, WOULD YOU PREFER A PIE OR HALF A CAKE. yOU THINK YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO KNEW ABOUT THAT!”

    Again, what on earth does this mean?

    What are you referring to?

    “AND THE COMMENTS YOU MADE ON ASEAN WILL MAKE EVERYBODY LAUGH. LAUGHING AT THE FACT YOU HAD DISPLAYED YOUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS A REALITY BY SAYING OTHERS ARE MERELY PUTTING UP CONJECTURE.”

    How so?

    I have made all my points with clear facts, unlike your own; feel free to respond when you have actually learned something.

    “lIKE i SAID YOU LIVE HOPE YOU WILL DIE IN DESPAIR.

    Dragonwall, You have been soundly defeated; i know this is humiliating for you, you claimed to be all knowledgable about Indonesia and you have been exposed as the lightweight that you are, constantly making childish, abusive generalisations like a teenage girl.

    It is you who is the tortured soul; i feel sorry for you, but don’t depsiar, i will forgive you.

    “I ALSO FIND THAT FURTHER TALKING TO IDIOTIC AMF LIKE YOU MAKE ME SICK BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO ENDS TO IT.”

    I know it hurts when you get humiliated in public like this, but you will be the better person eventually, after you accept that your are wrong on every point you tried to make.

    Just subjugate yourself to me and join the dark-side, you know that i own you.

  22. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 15th, 2007 at 5:54 am

    I am having a good time writing this and watching history of China with a VCD. Looking at you all worked up and felt agitated with the word like “No i haven’t”.

    You look so pathetic

    I mean that you were the one with a mentality of a menial peon, and it is crisps clear you do not possess the intuition and sense of deductions (sod). And you need to be given explanation one by one like a kindergarden kid.

    1. You mean Singapore has only 100 million USD in reserve?..
    2. As to CIA and US involvement you already had read that.
    3. The policy of genocide, I am sure you did not look up the http://www.greenleft.au and that
    spelt out word for word right before your eyes.
    4. The rest of name calling makes you look as though a person who really lack the
    ability to accept criticsm, inability to face the fact, unable to get over with
    humiliation. Always trying hard to protect the yolk when the egg had already cracked.

    To prove it – I has been proven beyond shadow of doubts. Like Singapore has a reserve of 100 million USD. Singapore Government last year handed out approx S$1,500 to every of her citizens. How much was that. And you have the cheek to say she had only 100 million USD in reserve.

    So what, if you have answered all the points of every bloggers here…

    WOULD YOU PREFER A PIE OR HALF A CAKE

    (SOD) Everyone knows the US has facilities in Asian countries like the naval repair base in Singapore. But does US only wants a base or a facilities?

    How so?

    You were provided with those websites and that mean you have not gone through those websites. This shows that you cannot swallow humiliation yourself. Wasn’t that proof enough. Like I said, but seemed unlikely to save some time since your lack the ability to understand. No wonder you said you were with those high level TNI officials just playing golf.

    “lIKE i SAID YOU LIVE HOPE YOU WILL DIE IN DESPAIR.”

    At least you learned something.

    Because I know I what I am talking so why not

    Just subjugate yourself to me, you know that i own you right in my pocket.

    I am still enoying the shrewdness in politics on my VCD as compare to the simple mind of a menial peon.

    Astala Vista



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