Educated Woman’s Lament

Oct 21st, 2011, in Featured, Girls, IM Posts, by

The conundrum of a feminist woman seeking love, and the dismal male specimens on offer.

On the never say die 'dating Indonesian girls' post, on the 136th page, visitor 'Bitten Apple' writes thoughtfully of the predicament that single Indonesian women influenced by contact with the West, like with French feminism, may face in the game of love and romance once back in Indonesia.

She notes three types of available men:

  • Regular Indonesian guys: patriarchal, sexist, homophobic, and hypocritical, - they expect to be the man but still live with their parents
  • Western educated men: basically still patriarchal, although perhaps a little cleverer at it than above, selfish, ignorant, brats, still thoroughly upper middle class Asian despite their (superficial) western experiences
  • Expats and white men: these are a dismal choice, they go in for the, ahem, Indonesian look type girls, are either old and married, or young and with a fetish for Asian submissiveness

That was a summary, sucking out the juicy bits and without the qualifications....following is her full, interesting and thoughtful, comment, which ends with a lament for the western educated Indonesian women, stuck between a rock and a hard place, in this country and out of it, and

asked to be like a comet, then when you’re 25, you are asked to be a turtle, walking down slowly


If you are an Indonesian single woman who have spent some times overseas, either for work or for study, and/or are deeply influenced by western-ways of thinking, and currently living in Jakarta, I can feel you.

While in some cases we are adored, or even in some extreme cases, being envied by other women, as because we are fortunate enough to well-travelled, have earned an overseas degree, or to be able to speak in other languages, or for having this so-called more modern thought, we are left with dilemma of finding the right kind of man. It’s getting worse if you graduated from a university where many french feminists went to, not because those men are aware of, but because somehow it influenced the way you see the world. Even when you take fashion design. Just to say fashion is evolved according to social and political issues, they makes you read a whole book abiut french feminism movement. But the worst scenario is when you are claimed (either self-, or by public) as a feminist.
I myself am not (thank God!) a lonely woman who desperately need a man to hanging around. I am blessed with some best friends whom I am stuck since I was 5 years old, not to mention some other best friends I gained when I grew up. I have two male best friends who are almost-always available to be around if I am in need, or just to be traveling with, or to go to a bar with. But living in Jakarta, people think it’s a sin to be single when you are 25 years old.

It is not that we (speaking on behalf the others) are picky, but we do enjoy spending quality time with my partner, including having a quality chat. For me, as I said I have a bunch of best friends from elementary school, none of them is working in development sectors nor interested in politic or current global issues. Frankly speaking, I don’t need shallow chat from my partner, as I can easily get shallow chat by calling my friends.

What choices do I have?

1. Typical Indonesian men.
Here the thing about these men, Indonesian culture are extremely patriarchy. A man has to be ‘more’ than his woman, start from richer, smarter, to the most shallow thing, taller. They see women are only good for cooking, managing household, bearing children, calm, acting feminine, and being submissive. Not to mention their twisted attitude and obsession over control. Generally speaking, they require their women to tell (and sometime asking for permit) whatever she’s doing or about to do. I won’t tell my man if I am about to go peeing or not going to a bar with my friends just because he is not around.

Another thing about this group, they still live with their parents. They somehow want to be a leader in a relationship, but they themselves are unable to live by their own. Please be aware that Indonesian people have serious issues in sequencing priorities in their life. For instance the fact that people bought a new car while still living with their parents, or a girl from slum area dropped out from school while using smart phone and paying 10 bucks a month to be able to open facebook on their handheld.

Apart from that facts above, I simply cannot deal with their sexist jokes. Even when they are well-educated, typical Indonesian men love sexist jokes. I assume it is because sex itself is taboo and not well-educated in Indonesia. So talking dirty, throwing sexist jokes is kind a rebellious doing for them. In the other hand, I have found so many men from this group who are homophobic. Like they have never heard that WHO has officially excluded homosexual from mental illness decades ago. I believe they haven’t.

I am not saying they are conservative nor religious, because some of them are engaged in extra-marital or pre-marital sex, watching porn, some of them don’t pray on a regular basis, some of them have bribed cops, some drink alcohol, using drugs or at least weeds, or using prostitution services. But they will be shocked and call you crazy once you tell them you don’t believe in any religion, let alone being an atheist. They’re twisted with their own values that they take for granted.

2. Western-educated Indonesian men

I used to have a hope to this group of men. I thought that having a western education might enlighten they ways of thinking about an equal relationship, which is obviously doesn’t exist in a relationship where a typical indonesian men involved. But I have seen a lot of men belong to this group still have struggled with the concept of equality in a relationship. They think somebody needs to take the lead in a relationship, even though it’s not always him. Some of them are playing tricky, they let their women to take the lead in small peanut stuffs, like choosing curtain color, type of tiles, but the big stuffs like the location of the house/apartment itself is his decision.

There are few different reasons why these men acting like this. Some of them, went overseas but still mingling with fellow Indonesians or other Asians people, who-unfortunately-shared the thoughts and attitude. The only norms they grabbed during their time are limited to traffic-related mater, making a line in front of the lockets, or not to call people ‘Negro’ or ‘black’, or a wisdom that ‘it is not a sin to have premarital sex or drink alcohol or eat porks’. But still, some of this group are still homophobic or think that you are communist if you don’t believe in God. The second common reason is some of them come from upper middle class who drive their parents’ Hummer or luxurious SUV, doing nothing but destructive things in their life called managing their parent’s company. Most of them are selfish ignorant Ken-Brats who think that they are a seigneur of their little kingdom. So even though they have lived in western countries or earned overseas degree, they are still pretty much Asian, sadly in a negative way. These men won’t be interested to me anyway. They go after other brats, air-head women who are only able to talk about Louis Vuitton without ability to tell about the history of Louis Vuitton and the relation between Vuitton family with Nazi, assuming they really know about what Nazi had done in Europe. Some of them, even worse, mispronounced “Louis Vuitton”. So me, a not-skinny woman who talks about Rohigya Refugees or criticized them for being a chauvinist patriarchies snob, is not their option.

3. Expat.
It was not once or twice my fellow Indonesian friends suggested me to go after western men, as I am considered ‘too liberal’ for any Indonesian men. What the heck that supposes to mean? Anyway, after quite a while of contemplate, I finally realized that by “too liberal”, they mean I have western values to uphold, including equal relationship and “non-abusive” relationship. Theoretically, it is not hard for me, considering my occupation, to find an expat.
But.... Nyeh, forget it, most expats I have met are either old and married, or young-but Asian Fetish. Most of these men are so into uhm, how I address it politely, more authentic Indonesian looks and attitudes. Most of those Indonesian women play girly-submissive, acting feminine, don’t logically-intellectually debate in substance, especially those whom they met in a bar. I have known so many expats hooked up with an Indonesian woman in a bar, then hooked up again, and since there is no dating phase in Indonesian dating rules (seriously, it’s either you’re one night stand or in relationship. There is nothing in between), the woman called him her boyfriend (as if they’re in a relationship).

However, indeed there are groups of indonesian women who seriously are hunting for expats, hoping to be married, have beautiful half-race children, and live better. And those women communicate and sharing tips to each other. Once I accidentally sit in a same table with an old expat with his typical indonesian woman girlfriend. This woman could not even finish a sentence in a grammatically correct english, not to mention understand and follow current political issues (because everybody at the table was eitehr lawyer or development workers), while the guy is working as a political secretary in a developed country embassy for Indonesia. Well my english is not perfect either, I was just wondering what conversation do they make on a daily basis?

Don’t get me wrong, I also have known plenty of Expat-Asian women couples who make a perfect couple, perfect family. It is because I see equality in their relationship. They are on the same level, they came from the same class. It is not an equality when a man does the dishes just because he loves or feeling pity to his wife. It has to be driven by a perspective and consciously well-perceived knowledge that washing dishes is both’s obligation.

I am not saying either, that hooking up with bimbos is wrong, or ladies in the bar are necessarily bimbos. I am not. In fact, I love hanging out with friends in a bar, or with my partner once in a while. But having a quality time, in-depth dialogue or exercise our hobbies together does really really matter to me. And it doesn’t have to be a lawyer or development worker to have a quality conversation. But honestly, listening to a guy talking about his car or engine, or something scary like “when we get married, I want you to blah blah...” is just too much for me.

To me, the most important thing to pick up someone into a relationship is not how good is he/she on the dance floor, even though that counts. I need to know that she/he is not affiliated to a political party like PKS or Republican or UMP. I cannot figure it out by observing the way s/he dances nor how many bottles s/he can handle.

I always questioning why did this phenomenon happen massively. An expat friend gave me the hurtful answer, “if those people want to have a girl like you, independent, outspoken, and demands for equality, they would not have traveled all the way to Asia for a woman. And some guys are tired enough talking about stressful stuffs at their office, they want to be a king, serviced and get spoiled by his woman”. Apparently this Asian fetish, Yellow Fever, or whatever you call it, is not only about the looks, but also the attitude, the Asian family value where woman is plain submissive to her man and dedicated to their family. The fever is definitely shunned me from this group.

Then how on earth are we going to find a man ? I remember when I was a kid, my mom required me to be smart, academically excellent, and always be thirsty of knowledge. To make me read newspapers when I was on 5th grades, my father brought me to a British Embassy’s cocktail party and pointed me a woman who was sitting alone in the corner. He said nobody is talking to her because she knows nothing to talk about, because she doesn’t read paper!

Then two years ago, my mother refused to send me to an ivy league law school in USA, not only because the tuition alone costs 44 grands a year (a number that we barely have), but also because I am about to climb my pyramid. Her theory is woman’s social life is like a pyramid, the higher her social class (which is determined by educational tittle, income, position at work), the narrower her people are, which mean the fewer eligible men who would marry her. Because smart women scare men. Independent women are intimidating men. Well, sarcastically said, A ken-brats deserves a bimbo. But if a decent-widely open minded man is keen on a bimbo as well, whom do so-called western-educated women belong?

What a tricky way of living for Indonesian women, once you are asked to be like a comet, then when you’re 25, you are asked to be a turtle, walking down slowly.
If it is just the way it is, to hell with the billions dollars aid spent for women empowerment programmes in developing countries.


34 Comments on “Educated Woman’s Lament”

Pages: [1] 2 »

  1. avatar bonni says:
    October 20th, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    Dear bitten apple,

    Are you a feminist? Have you dated expats? Have you dated Indonesian guys?

  2. avatar fabian says:
    October 21st, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    Bitten Apple :

    I think your view of expats, refers mostly to 1st world , like anglos from USA and germans and other europeans.

    Probably you could expect a different approach from other foreigners, like latins, blacks and asians from other countries.

    I am latinoamerican, and, even if I like to read about poliitcs, religions and global affairs, I dont find that kind of conversation a suitable topic for picking up girls…And in our culture, at first, there are 3 topics to ve avoided : football, politics, and religion..because here, in Uruguay and Argentina, people feel very strongly about these 3 topics and is better to avoid them, to avoid arguments and discussions…btut they can be talked after they know you more

  3. avatar Copen says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 5:19 am

    I think this rotten apple should not be with any man and get a dog instead..and a dildo.

  4. avatar ndika says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 9:59 am

    If you ask Western men they would prefer Asian girls. Why? because they are most of them virgin. Why would feminist activists want equality while men prefer inequality if the women want men

  5. avatar Um says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Um, the.last.comment.is.stupid.virgin.really?

  6. avatar Lairedion says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    fabian,

    Bule men in Indonesia is virtually equal to Anglo-Celts and Western Europeans like Germans, Belgians and Dutch and perhaps some Scandinavians. Don’t know about Eastern EuropeansIt’s very rare to see Indo women with Portuguese, Spanish, Italian or Greek men, let alone Latin Americans and Africans, although they are exceptions, including a fellow Uruguayan

    Cristian Gonzáles

    ndika,

    Thanks for clarifying this. I was wondering why some of the bule posters on this particular site are holding insecure and hostile views towards feminazis but now I understand. :-)

  7. avatar stevo says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Yes I agree Lairedion, there is no fooling ndika !

  8. avatar ET says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 9:45 pm

    What a waste. Wasn’t feminism meant to liberate women and make them happier? But instead of enjoying the power of self-aware womanhood it turned them into nagging, faultfinding and paranoid bitches, one eye looking up, the other looking down, constantly wondering what could have escaped them.
    No wonder so many Western men developed an Asian fetish.

  9. avatar matahari says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    She made her point very well

  10. avatar Oigal says:
    October 22nd, 2011 at 10:56 pm

    A more interesting reaction would be when you do a simliar post describing women ET..:-). Should be able to draw a few bites…

  11. avatar bonni says:
    October 23rd, 2011 at 1:40 am

    Ndika,

    If you ask Western men they would prefer Asian girls. Why? because they are most of them virgin. Why would feminist activists want equality while men prefer inequality if the women want men

    Well, I think bitten apple is a virgin, so I don’t think that’s her problem… Seriously… The problem is that she’s a western educated-indonesian woman… The problem is how much liberal she is… So now she’s wondering, how oh how she is going to have a man… A man that surely deserves her…

    Bitten apple,

    But living in Jakarta, people think it’s a sin to be single when you are 25 years old.

    It is TOTALLY not a sin. For being a ‘western-educated indonesian woman’, why would you care so much about what people say?

    If it is just the way it is, to hell with the billions dollars aid spent for women empowerment programmes in developing countries.

    It seriously has nothing to do with women empowerment, bitten apple. You are speaking for yourself, right? I don’t think you are a feminist. Reading books doesn’t make you one. Living with them doesn’t make you one. Studying abroad doesn’t make you one.

    It is not that we (speaking on behalf the others) are picky, but we do enjoy spending quality time with my partner, including having a quality chat. For me, as I said I have a bunch of best friends from elementary school, none of them is working in development sectors nor interested in politic or current global issues. Frankly speaking, I don’t need shallow chat from my partner, as I can easily get shallow chat by calling my friends.

    And seriously, having broken conversation with our partner is TOTALLY different from having one with best friends. I am sorry but you sound so sad on that one…

    Yes, ok, you want to have a very important – political, scientic, substantial, top notch – conversation in relationship. Don’t blame yourself for being so ‘intellectual’. I am sure there is someone out there for you LOL

    I dated an indonesian guy. He didn’t mind with my ‘feminism’ as well as my ‘atheism’. He even found the feminism cute somehow :P Also when I was with bule. They had no problem with that. We talked about the politics, the global financial crisis, substantial things, as well as the weather and the beers LOL I mean it just happen, right? If you don’t find the topic suitable or interesting for you, it means you two just don’t ‘click’? I have this ‘traumatize-ing experience’ went on a date with this guy who talked about politics, architectures, history and philosophy over and over again… Oh dear… I felt like watching CNN live in jakarta in front of my-very-self. I was like, “So, when are you going to show me your massaging skill?” And another silly experience went on a date with this guy who talked about indonesian prostitutes over and over again… I thought, “Yes, he is a pervert and he definitely is horny now.” :D

    Most of those Indonesian women play girly-submissive, acting feminine, don’t logically-intellectually debate in substance, especially those whom they met in a bar.

    Women are never stronger than when they arm themselves with their weakness. ~Marie de Vichy-Chamrond, Marquise du Deffand, Letters to Voltaire

    To me, the most important thing to pick up someone into a relationship is not how good is he/she on the dance floor, even though that counts. I need to know that she/he is not affiliated to a political party like PKS or Republican or UMP. I cannot figure it out by observing the way s/he dances nor how many bottles s/he can handle.

    LOL you are so intellectual (I said that twice already). Men must feel so insecure, intimidated and shivering or sweating while talking to you… Or is that just your arrogancy for having overseas experience, being so much western-educated, and brought to a british embassy cocktail party while you were still in the 5th grade?

    Then two years ago, my mother refused to send me to an ivy league law school in USA, not only because the tuition alone costs 44 grands a year (a number that we barely have), but also because I am about to climb my pyramid. Her theory is woman’s social life is like a pyramid, the higher her social class (which is determined by educational tittle, income, position at work), the narrower her people are, which mean the fewer eligible men who would marry her. Because smart women scare men. Independent women are intimidating men. Well, sarcastically said, A ken-brats deserves a bimbo. But if a decent-widely open minded man is keen on a bimbo as well, whom do so-called western-educated women belong?

    You are so arrogant that you scare the guys… That’s it.

    Don’t blame it on the women empowerment and feminism, please.

  12. avatar Mr. Brightside says:
    October 23rd, 2011 at 2:57 am

    This is the most interesting post here in a long while.

    How’re things around here Pak Patung?

  13. avatar stevo says:
    October 23rd, 2011 at 4:26 am

    Bonni, when I talk about femanazis/feminists, I am not talking about women like you or Bitten Apple. My view is that you both just want a fair deal in life. I see nothing that indicates any radical feminist ideology in that. I understand that some Indonesians may think you are a feminist, but you are not by Western standards.

    Feminists in the West are different. They do not simply want equal treatment for women. If you follow their blogs, you will often see they want special treatment, not equality. You will also see plenty about politics, social issues, economic issues, environmental issues, rights of indigenous (well non-white indigenous) issues and so on. All of this from an extreme left anti-capitalist perspective. I think you are more concerned about getting some fair treatment, than you are about spreading hate against the world’s most liberal and progressive societies that treat women far better than many other places.

    Like so many good causes, legitimate concerns about women’s issues have been hijacked by politically motivated people with other agendas. That is why I, and some others, here talk about feminists the way we do. It is not directed at people like yourself.

  14. avatar bonni says:
    October 23rd, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    Stevo,

    I know dear. I am working with some ‘extreem’ feminists. They do it as if it is their choice in life. Some of them chose not to be married and fully dedicated to their work.

    This bitten apple here is saying, that because she is seen as a feminist and maybe don’t believe in god, she’s being ‘left alone’. Or that she has no option to pick a man. Where are you in this world, bitten apple?

    I’ve got so many friends who are western-educated indonesian women, they are doing fabolous in life. Some of them marry indonesians, but mostly expats.

    Bitten apple wants substance in conversation. So many guys out there like to discuss substantial things with their partner, so many guys would rather be with intellectual girls than just sweet dolls companion. But then you’ve got to keep it balance. It’s ok to spice dates up with alcohol and dance. Stop being so nerdy.

    The last paragraph of bitten apple’s ‘story’ gave me headache. I mean I thought she was so intellectual. The ‘climbing of the pyramid’? What the hell is that? I’ve seen so many indonesian women who got their phd (not pizza h*t delivery) abroad and are true feminists now live happily with their family, or their partner. Stop creating, imagining, thinking about that pyramid, and step on earth. Stop listening to your mother wise words already, you are 25, settle yourself. Get a scholarship. Don’t let them pay for you, you should be able to pay for yourself. And hmm, you should know what you want, not what other people’s want.

    As an Indonesian woman, the way you see the world is different now, I know. You should thank the universe for that! :D

  15. avatar berlian biru says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Most of these men are so into uhm, how I address it politely, more authentic Indonesian looks and attitudes.

    Says all you need to know about this woman, she despises the type of darker skinned, “traditional” looking Indonesian woman, kampongan if you will, she herself no doubt is very proud of her fair skin upon which she lavishes a small fortune in whitening cream and then can’t understand why a bule doesn’t recognise her oh-so-superior qualities.

    Self hating chick with severe neuroses, needs a gay bloke as best friend to whine and bitch with.

  16. avatar BrotherMouzone says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    It is not an equality when a man does the dishes just because he loves or feeling pity to his wife. It has to be driven by a perspective and consciously well-perceived knowledge that washing dishes is both’s obligation.

    When does that EVER happen? You may be holding out for an unrealistic ideal here…

    Apart from that, this was an interesting and insightful piece. I am of the firm belief that we choose our own problems and that if you perceive the difficulty in finding a man to be a problem, then it may be something in the decisions you are making and the impression you are making that is causing these problems.

    An expat friend gave me the hurtful answer, “if those people want to have a girl like you, independent, outspoken, and demands for equality, they would not have traveled all the way to Asia for a woman. And some guys are tired enough talking about stressful stuffs at their office, they want to be a king, serviced and get spoiled by his woman”.

    Your friend is a moron. Expatriates did not cross the world to find a woman, they crossed the world for work. His description of what an expatriate man wants may be indicative of the attitudes of some western men, but certainly do not apply across the board.

    I apologize, and I don’t really know you, but it seems to me from what you’ve written that you are holding out for an ideal that may not exist. I’m all for having standards, but your process for the evaluation of potential suitors seems to be focused on finding ways of excluding them. There will always be a reason to dump a potential partner, the real trick is seeing the good stuff in them so you can get past the crap you don’t like.

    Oprah out.

  17. avatar deta says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    asked to be like a comet, then when you’re 25, you are asked to be a turtle, walking down slowly

    Actually Bitten Apple, either you’re being a comet, a turtle, or something in between, it’s the way you perceive yourself that finally determines your happiness.

  18. avatar Oigal says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    :-)… He he I am sooooo tempted to a response post on this one…

    Could have the seriously scary “Big Hair Matrons” , the pampered vacuous Mall Rat, the arrogant but newly rich Kampung Girl, The well educated but dumb as dogsh*t “career girl. Perhaps even branch out into the various ethnic specialties. Dayak girls and their magic, the girls from Madura and their ..ahem..special use of the bounty from the forest and Javanese girls and…the Bandung Girls…oh those Bandung Girls.

    Best description ever of a Bandung Girl… “Just looking at them makes you want to do things that would make a poofter vomit” Ok a somewhat coarse friend but he had a point.

    Now if I can slip in something about expats and sex into the title should be able to blow blos stats through the roof. I might need to go into a witness protection program tho :-)

  19. avatar Lairedion says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Bitten Apple reminds me of Marisa Duma. Lots of intellectual sounding words but so far out of touch from the real world.

    As she has given up on men, and being liberal, why not have a go at the same sex?

  20. avatar Oigal says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    “if those people want to have a girl like you, independent, outspoken, and demands for equality, they would not have traveled all the way to Asia for a woman.

    I have to agree with BM, your friend is a Moron and obviously never met a girl from the Sumatra highlands.

  21. avatar deta says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    Bandung Girl… “Just looking at them makes you want to do things that would make a poofter vomit”

    Could be the next Bandung’s tourism slogan or a welcome sign on Cipularang toll road. Sure that can sell.

  22. avatar Oigal says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Ouch :-)

  23. avatar ET says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 10:21 pm

    BM said

    Your friend is a moron. Expatriates did not cross the world to find a woman, they crossed the world for work.

    Sure. But I don’t think most women – Indonesian or others – see it that way. Women have different priorities. For them romance and everything related – including finance – comes first, which is understandable from a biological point of view.
    To put it to the test look at all the threads in this forum. Those that deal with dating and ‘the game of love’ always have the highest female participation. Even other threads that started from different subjects suddenly seem to attract a lot of female commentators the moment the discussion veers into a pond filled with “Water of Love”.

  24. avatar ET says:
    October 24th, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    Oigal

    Now if I can slip in something about expats and sex into the title should be able to blow blos stats through the roof.

    Expats and sex. Make that “sexual refugees”. ;-)

  25. avatar Heeheehee says:
    October 25th, 2011 at 12:10 am

    “Regular Indonesian guys: patriarchal, sexist, homophobic, and hypocritical, – they expect to be the man but still live with their parents”

    I totally agree with this. indonesian men often blame the women on almost everything including rapes. they can’t have good arguments other than “learn about religion! God will send you to hell if you betray blah blah blah”

    indonesian men have weird mindset. they want women to be educated so those men are not the only ones who build the nation especially in economy but at the same time they call career women wives who don’t care about babies and blame them for working outside their homes, “you get raped it is all your fault!!! who told you to go out! you should stay home!”

    also the one thing that makes me sick is they never admit that indo men love pornography and keep attempting to spread issues that they can take benefit from women’s bodies. just look at indo communities like Kaskus, Webgaul, and some indonesian men’s blogs. and indonesian women are more submissive than western men. but this proves that pornography being more popular in indonesia because indo men are perverted in nature!!!

    they will be upset if pornography is banned. if they find local porn sites are blocked, they will do some hacking to access them or they will find some other local sites that are not blocked or they will browse foreign sites. but still indo men tend to blame the women in this demoralization.

    in short, indonesian men are ones of the most egoistic men on the planet. and they have double standards especially in morality. but if you see their arguments, you can understand why they suck at international politics, cause they are only trained to win debates against submissive women who suck at critical thinking.

    lets admit that, successful indonesian people are the people who adapt other nations’ cultures. not the ones who are fanatic with theirs.

  26. avatar agan says:
    October 25th, 2011 at 3:09 am

    Bitten Apple was just wanted to share her feeling and her problems to be acknowledged as such that’s all.
    And all the while most of us men (and some women) logically think she was asking for a dramatic “solution”.
    There you go Bitten Apple, no worries most men sure do get bugs up our asses too but we just too damn manly to talk openly about it.
    That’s why we die young from hemorrhoids.

  27. avatar berlian biru says:
    October 25th, 2011 at 8:40 am

    indo men love pornography and keep attempting to spread issues that they can take benefit from women’s bodies. just look at indo communities like Kaskus, Webgaul, and some indonesian men’s blogs.

    Thank you I will have a look at those sites immediately, er, just for research purposes you understand.

  28. avatar Tiffany says:
    October 26th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    The comments from Bonny totally pissed me off. Seriously, this is a woman’s confession about how she found the different types of guy in Indonesia. Its not about being nerdy or all about dating and its not even showing off how “arrogant” she was.

    First of all, she just confessed that finding a partner who can accept her liberal way is difficult due to her times aboard which in turn changed her perspective of seeing the world. Its not about showing off that she had been educated aboard, but more like finding a mate who has the same view as her is difficult.
    If u think that studying aboard made her arrogant, then IT IS YOUR FCKING PROBLEM!
    coz u didnt get what she was trying to say.

    Well, when you found 3 different types of men appalling in theory, how can u date them in real life? Stop relating this to her dating life. This has nothing to do with her real life since this is only her observation of the behavior of the opposite sex. Its not about feminism either since she confessed that finding someone who treats her as an equal or having a quality chat is difficult. She said nothing about woman’s equal treatment in general in which the subject of feminism is so focused on.

    So, STOP GIVING COMMENTS ON SOMETHING THAT ISNT RELATED TO THE ARTICLE!

  29. avatar Oigal says:
    October 26th, 2011 at 11:45 am

    So, STOP GIVING COMMENTS ON SOMETHING THAT ISNT RELATED TO THE ARTICLE!

    Well that would create a whole new trend for the website then :-)

    That said ..well this should be fun to watch

  30. avatar bonni says:
    October 26th, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Hi tiffany,

    Well… Thank you… I can see now she has no problem with her personality…

    I myself am not (thank God!) a lonely woman who desperately need a man to hanging around. I am blessed with some best friends whom I am stuck since I was 5 years old, …

    Or, no…?

    So you know exactly what she was trying to tell us? Walk us through it, darling, walk us through it…

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