Women in Mosques

Sep 17th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

Women are not allowed in the Sultan mosque in Ternate.

Women & Their Unholy Voices

While almost all mosques in Indonesia allow women to come inside and pray, although they have to sit behind the men, the Sultan mosque in Ternate, North Maluku (Maluku Utara, Malut) (map) is unique in forbidding women from entering.

Djafar, a local figure, explains:

Only men can pray in this mosque, women are not allowed. This is an old tradition and has never been broken.

The mosque's cleric, Ridwan Dero, says the reason for the banning of women is to protect the holiness of the place:

If women pray here then their menstruation might suddenly start. Apart from that the men who come to pray here might be bothered by seeing women or hearing their voices.

There are no exceptions to the rule at any time.

Men & Their Holy Trousers

The men who come are required to wear long trousers - wearing of sarongs only is not sufficient - and they must also have the top of their heads covered by a kopiah or sorban.

Ridwan Dero explains that by wearing trousers the men show that they have truly prepared themselves to face God. Dero says that when men are standing up while praying, and wearing trousers, the position of their legs forms the words "lam alif". Lam alif represents the two statements of the Muslim confession of faith, "there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet". In this way men who wear trousers show in physical, visible form that they believe in the confession of faith.

Guards are on hand, perhaps similarly to those at the Baiturrahman mosque in Aceh, who advise men who arrive in only sarongs to go home and get changed, or just go to another mosque.

Similarly the wearing of headwear is required as a sign of respect to God. The guards have spare caps to lend to visitors should the latter have forgotten their head-wear. [1]

The Menara mosque in Semarang, Central Java, is another old mosque which does not allow women, although the reasons are not stated. It is used mainly by Indonesians of Arab descent. [2]


219 Comments on “Women in Mosques”

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  1. avatar Sylvester says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 4:19 am

    While almost all mosques in Indonesia allow women to come inside and pray, although they have to sit behind the men,

    The prove of islam discriminates women. Something that never seen in any other religions. The real GOD always treat all human same.

    If women pray here then their menstruation might suddenly start. Apart from that the men who come to pray here might be bothered by seeing women or hearing their voices.

    This is a pathetic moslem thinking. Horrible. Women menstruation is something good and beauty, without it means no pregnancy, no birth, no child, no happiness. Islam treats women such as devil. Dear, what a evil teaching.

  2. avatar sonnie says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 8:44 am

    Okay I got it, so women don’t have their proper places in mosques, how about in Heaven, do women allowed to enter Heaven? Heaven is so much holier than the mosque, right?

  3. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 9:42 am

    Friends, a prayer is void if a woman, dog or donkey passes in front of you while you were at it. It is not man-made law, it is what Allah the most compassionate want. It is not too much to ask. I don’t see what the fuss is about. Anyway, I will be back in 2 days’ time for more Quranic verses. Got a plane to catch now. Ciao.

  4. avatar Djoko says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 10:24 am

    The prove of islam discriminates women. Something that never seen in any other religions. The real GOD always treat all human same.

    Okay I got it, so women don’t have their proper places in mosques, how about in Heaven, do women allowed to enter Heaven? Heaven is so much holier than the mosque, right?

    “For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.”

    إن المسلمين والمسلمات والمؤمنين والمؤمنات والقانتين والقانتات والصادقين والصادقات والصابرين والصابرات والخاشعين والخاشعات والمتصدقين والمتصدقات والصائمين والصاائمات والحافظين فروجهم والحافظات والذاكرين الله كثيرا والذاكرات أعد الله لهم مغفرة وأجرا عظيما. (الأحزاب، 35).

  5. avatar Peter says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 10:53 am

    Sonnie, I am sorry, but the way these guys are talking, it appears that women may have to sit in the back of heaven as well.

  6. avatar Augusto says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    This is what our Moh’s sock puppet allah said in the quran about women:

    #Menstruation is a sickness. Don’t have sex with menstruating women. quran 2:222

    #Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. quran 2:223

    #A woman is worth one-half a man. quran 2:282

    # Marry of the women two, or three, or four. quran 4:3

    # Males are to inherit twice that of females. quran 4:11

    # Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. quran 4:15

    # “All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
    You can’t have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). Quran 4:24

    # Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. Quran 4:34

    And many more. Doubt it? Check it out for your self!
    Here is an online quran and hadith:

  7. avatar Pena Budaya says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    Oh boy…let’s learn the history of Islam, shall we?

    Muhammad was never daring to said such things when Khadija, the first Muslim woman and the first wife of Muhammad still been alive and paying Muhammad’s bills. Khadija was the only Muhammad’s wife who was never required to wear veil or seclude herself and never lived to hear the word of God proclaim such words as quoted by Augusto. Why? because Khadija was the money maker! Without her money and status, Muhammad would never become the way he is now..

    Men..they always forget where they came from and made of…

  8. avatar Djoko says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    #Menstruation is a sickness. Don’t have sex with menstruating women. quran 2:222

    So women don’t get/feel sick when they menstruate?

    #Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. quran 2:223

    “Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.”

    I would assume the ‘fear Allah’ bit there would be an order not to do any injustice by women.

    #A woman is worth one-half a man. quran 2:282

    “And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.”

    Likely too much of a paradigm shift at the time for a woman to correct a man in Arabian society (if the man were to ‘forget’ something in his testimony) Thus by adding a second woman its no longer a case of a woman correcting a man, but weight of numbers doing so. The main essence of this verse for nowadays is that a second witness should be available, not necessarily that it need be two women in stead of a second man. (of course thats just my take on it, and lord knows there are ulama who very much assert the one man = 2 women theory)

    # Marry of the women two, or three, or four. quran 4:3

    “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.”

    Nice of you to conveniently leave out the stipulation that multiple wives have to be treated equally, or else dont bother practicing polygamy at all.

    # Males are to inherit twice that of females. quran 4:11

    Balanced by the fact that men have to pay a mahar to their bride (not their family) upon marriage. This money/gift is the brides alone to do with it as she wishes. There is no mahar for men.

    # Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. quran 4:15

    “And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.”

    For a start you need four witnesses, thats a fair few, so it must be a fairly serious offence out in the open. Even then if someone repents for their acts then this can be considered to ‘open some way’ for them, so that they can return to normal life.

    # “All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
    You can’t have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). Quran 4:24

    Seriously, who has slaves anymore. Who cares. As for having sex with married women (ie women who you are not married to), well thats just plain courtesy to your fellow man.

    “Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. ”

    where is the bit about slave raping anyway?

    # Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. Quran 4:34

    “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). ”

    ‘Protectors and maintainers of women is the translation i’ve seen before. Of course, I’ve decided to include the whole verse (which I’m surprised you didn’t as it has the very juicy bit about beating wives in it). To that, I have been told by a Muslim friend before that this is meant to be symbolic, not punative. I found this explanation for those who are wary of ‘hearsay’ on my part:

    “It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one’s own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word “beating” is used in the verse, but it does not mean “physical abuse”. The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) explained it “dharban ghayra mubarrih” which means “a light tap that leaves no mark”. He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.”

    All of the above is my own understanding of the texts. I have no doubt there are ulama who read the texts in a different manner and come up with more oppressive understandings. Thats what happens when you don’t have a pope or ultimate leader of the faith who can decide once and for all on rulings. This is Islam’s greatest strength and at the same time most prominent weakness. Thus, as to what is ultimately and truly right and wrong, wallahu alam (only God knows that).

  9. avatar Janma says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    Pena Budaya said:

    “Muhammad was never daring to said such things when Khadija, the first Muslim woman and the first wife of Muhammad still been alive and paying Muhammad’s bills. Khadija was the only Muhammad’s wife who was never required to wear veil or seclude herself and never lived to hear the word of God proclaim such words as quoted by Augusto. Why? because Khadija was the money maker! Without her money and status, Muhammad would never become the way he is now..”

    Oh so let’s make it like this then, if the man makes the money, then the woman is the groveller, if the woman makes the money, then she gets to wear bikini and order the man about, if they both make money then everyone gets to be boss, then they can pick on kaffir.

  10. avatar Parvita says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    These days there are tampons, in case you pathetic men don’t know. Let alone the guys can see and be bothered, or drip to the mosque’s floor, the blood won’t even stain in our panties.

    Check my blog on women, menstruation and praying: http://parvita.wordpress.com/.

  11. avatar Putu Alberto Lee says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    What’s so wrong about this prohibition? I mean, isn’t it good?

    I mean, if I were a woman, I would be very happy not to go to the mosque during my period. It gives me one more excuse. I’d rather do something else (watch TV, play computer games, listen to the music, dance, do some office works, travel, etc).

    This is a view from someone who’d rather do something else than going to mosque / church / temple / whatever holy congregation site for mass brainwashing. :)

  12. avatar Augusto says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    Djoko,

    I am so sad to see there are still so many moderate muslims who will do anything to defend islam while denying all the facts and evidences. I know it is hard for a muslim who had been practicing islam for so long to admit that there are many nasty verses in the quran. You even say that all the verses that I quoted seem to be all corrupted and they sound very reasonable to you. That is what always happens when a good muslim comes to defend islam, reason, conscience and compassion does not function anymore. No matter how ridiculous it says in the quran, muslims will find a ridiculous answer to justify it. This is why it cannot be reformed, to reform something you need to admit mistakes and replace it with a new one or discard it. If you are enlightened you will be able to admit that all religion have their goods and bads. The reason why christians and other religions can get along with the fast changing world. It is because they are willing to admit mistakes and then reformed. Muslims are still fighting for the implementation of sharia, the caliphate, umma and all those utopian dreams.

  13. avatar Parvita says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    Yeah, Putu, I won’t bother going to mosque anyways. I’d rather pray at home. Difficult to park, risk of losing your sandal, I’d rather pray with my family at home.

  14. avatar Djoko says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    Augusto

    Who died and made you Islamic pope?

    I just thought it would be worth providing some alternative discussion to the texts you posted. You know, just in the interest of showing that there are other viewpoints out there, and not every Muslim is a rabid monster.

    Have I done something wrong by putting out a different understanding of religious texts? I don’t disagree with you that there are some Muslims out there who are all about beating and raping wives and so on, and that they are using religious texts to do so. I just thought I would put out my own thoughts and understanding of the texts. Or am I not allowed to do this now?

    There are several schools of Islamic thought, not to mention those streams of Islam which do not adhere to one or the other school and engage with texts directly. This of course is no wonder, as the other day I saw on one of Metro TV’s programs that a scholar said that one word in Arabic can have upward of 20 meanings! Thus one would think that being able to understand the texts in different ways is completely permissable in Islam. Thus if I understand texts in a different way from yourself, then that should also be acceptable.

    Once again I’m not disagreeing with the fact that there are Muslims which are of a similar opinion to the general gist of what you were alluding to (ie that Islam is a wife bashing/raping/exploiting religion). I however disagree with those Muslims and anyone else who would use Islam to oppress another human being from my understanding of the texts.

    I just find it funny how people who set out to paint Islam as an evil or oppressive religion are so mortified that someone should dare have a different viewpoint to them and have the nerve to use religious texts to support their view. Isn’t that precisely the kind of thinking behind the mad Mullahs in places like Afghanistan or the Ayatollahs in Iran?

    Its just the way the world is going at the moment I suppose. People aren’t satisfied until they’ve boxed you in to either being a Mullah or a murtad.

  15. avatar Augusto says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    Djoko,

    Thus one would think that being able to understand the texts in different ways is completely permissable in Islam. Thus if I understand texts in a different way from yourself, then that should also be acceptable.

    This is the reason why you cant blame those good muslims and jihadists from using those nasty verses from the quran and ahadith to justify their action for beheading and suicide bombing, because they are also acceptable to them.

    I said: #Menstruation is a sickness. Don’t have sex with menstruating women. quran 2:222

    Yous said: So women don’t get/feel sick when they menstruate?

    Now consider what this multiple translation says about it:

    002.222
    YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
    PICKTHAL: They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.
    SHAKIR: And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you;surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

    Are you serious Djoko? You interpret this verse as “So women don’t get/feel sick when they menstruate?” Is this the kind when you meant by “Thus if I understand texts in a different way from yourself, then that should also be acceptable.”

  16. avatar pena budaya says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Oh so let’s make it like this then, if the man makes the money, then the woman is the groveller, if the woman makes the money, then she gets to wear bikini and order the man about, if they both make money then everyone gets to be boss, then they can pick on kaffir.

    Janma, my point by pointing out Khadija’s life with Muhammad and after she died was to show tha Muhammad is an inconsitent preacher. When you read Quran you must sense that too, of course, if you are smart enough to think it critically.

  17. avatar Djoko says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    Just calm down Augusto, it is a month for patience after all heheh

    Are you serious Djoko? You interpret this verse as “So women don’t get/feel sick when they menstruate?” Is this the kind when you meant by “Thus if I understand texts in a different way from yourself, then that should also be acceptable.”

    In that case I misunderstood what you were saying by calling it a ‘sickness’. I apologise for that. I thought you meant as in something which makes women sick, but now I see you mean as in something which is potentially sickness inducing for others (or am I misunderstanding again? hopefully not). I’m particularly familiar on that issue then, so I honestly dont’ have anything to put up for comparison to your view. Back to the books I suppose.

    This is the reason why you cant blame those good muslims and jihadists from using those nasty verses from the quran and a hadith to justify their action for beheading and suicide bombing, because they are also acceptable to them.

    THANK YOU for precisely summing up the problem Islam is facing today. You’re absolutely right. You can’t blame jihadists for coming up with their violent versions of Islam because there are interpretations of the texts and historical situations which they can call on to justify their claims. Thus lacking some kind of papal figure, Islam is in a bit of a bind, because on the one hand it means that it is perhaps even MORE open to change than other religious with set religious hierarchy, but on the other hand it means you can get some really intolerant, hateful stuff being put out. Its worth noting though that Islam is hardly alone in this, as other religions without a central papal-like figure also struggle with hateful intolerant versions of their religion, in particular protestant Christianity (see the likes of Jerry Falwell and co).

    Just because someone interprets Islam in a violent or way, it doesnt mean myself or any other Muslim is under any obligation to follow them, as different interpretations can be put forward to justify a different point of view. Indonesia is living proof of it, where you’ve got the whole range from Gus Dur to Abu Bakr Baasyir and everything in between.

  18. avatar Odinius says:
    September 17th, 2007 at 10:54 pm

    Dear Augusto,

    You don’t like what you see as Islamic intolerance to others. So why are you so intolerant of Islam and Muslims? Doesn’t that make you basically what you purport to despise? And, by extension, doesn’t that make you self-loathing?

    Sincerely,

    Odinius

  19. avatar Julita says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 9:17 am

    Djoko: Thats what happens when you don’t have a pope or ultimate leader of the faith who can decide once and for all on rulings.

    Its worth noting though that Islam is hardly alone in this, as other religions without a central papal-like figure also struggle with hateful intolerant versions of their religion, in particular protestant Christianity (see the likes of Jerry Falwell and co).

    Dear friend Djoko, the above sound like music in the air, thank you. Not very often somebody see it as you do, you are well informed.

    Anybody know, Aluang I am sure: Just one question, if women are not allowed to go to the Mosque, where do they get their religious instructions.
    I remember some places where children can go to learn and recite the Qur’an. Till what age ar they there and are they mix boys and girls? Thanks for your reply.

  20. avatar Janma says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 11:00 am

    Pena Budaya, I know what your point was”¦. I was being sarcastic towards Moh”¦. and the whole women aren’t good enough thing”¦. wasn’t refuting you. : )

  21. avatar Sputjam says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    I have not heard of any text message in the koran telling mankind to do and pray 5 times daily or do the friday prayers of build mosques in order to pray in them.

    All religions promote some form of idol worship and idol worship is a big sin according to the koran.

    God is The Sustainer and He does not require any sustenance from mankind either in the form of worship or offerings.

    the koran warns mankind against preachers and priest/ monks /clerics, why is it that mankind does not heed?

    As I can remeber it, muslims are those who does the things below :-

    You are forbidden to marry underage, close relatives, pagans and idol worshippers (anyone who profess to believe in religion), eat pork carcass and blood, mistreat your parents, cheat, lie, kill another person except for just causes, aborting an unborn child, idol worship, and stay away from evil and assets of orphans.

    The 5 pillars of islam -

    a)5 daily worship
    b) fasting in ramadan
    c) Haj
    d) zakat (religious tax)
    e) Dua kalimah

    Are man made inventions. The arabs never did believe in prophet mohamed. They have created a pagan religion by re-inventing the messages in the koran and creating the hadiths and sunnahs.

  22. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    Pena Budaya said:

    because Khadija was the money maker! Without her money and status, Muhammad would never become the way he is now..

    And Khadija was even after more. Khadija had her eyes set on the Ka’aba because she wanted to be in control of the money spent by the pagan pilgrims who visited Mecca to pray at the shrine. When Muhammad, who used to hang out in caves, had schizophrenic hallucinations and began to act strange and delusional, she took her chance and had him promoted to prophet, hoping to attract more pilgrims and hence more money. The rest is history.

    Ishaq:106 “I (Muhammad) stood gazing at him (the angel Gabriel) and that distracted me from committing suicide. I couldn’t move. Khadija sent her messengers in search of me and they gained the high ground above Mecca so I came to her and sat by her thigh. She said, ‘O Abu’l-Qasim, where have you been.’ I said, ‘Woe is me. I am possessed.’ She said, ‘I take refuge in Allah from that Abu’l-Qasim. Allah would not treat you that way. This cannot be, my dear. Perhaps you did see something,’” “‘Yes, I did.’ I said,” playing along. “I told her of what I had seen [while I was asleep]. She said, ‘Rejoice, son of my uncle, and be of good cheer. Verily, by Him in whose hand is Khadija’s soul, I have hope that you will be the prophet to this people.’” “She gathered her garments and went to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal [the Hanif], who had become a Christian. He read the scriptures and learned from those who followed the Torah and the Gospels.”

    Tabari VI:70 “He (Muhammad) went to Khadija and said, ‘I think that I have gone mad.’ ‘No, by Allah.’ she said. ‘Your Lord would never do that to you. You have never committed a wicked act.’ Khadija went to Waraqa and told him what had happened. He said, ‘If what you have said is true, your husband is a prophet….

    In fact it was Khadija who was Islam’s mastermind.

    Djoko said

    There are several schools of Islamic thought, not to mention those streams of Islam which do not adhere to one or the other school and engage with texts directly. This of course is no wonder, as the other day I saw on one of Metro TV’s programs that a scholar said that one word in Arabic can have upward of 20 meanings! Thus one would think that being able to understand the texts in different ways is completely permissable in Islam. Thus if I understand texts in a different way from yourself, then that should also be acceptable.

    If I were a man from Mars coming to earth to study world religions I think I would have serious doubts about teachings where one word can have upward of 20 meanings. Very confusing indeed.

    Re.

    If women pray here then their menstruation might suddenly start. Apart from that the men who come to pray here might be bothered by seeing women or hearing their voices.

    #Menstruation is a sickness. Don’t have sex with menstruating women. quran 2:222

    I agree with the clerics and our beloved Prophet (pbuh). How can you trust something that still hasn’t died after bleeding for more than 3 days? :-;

  23. avatar Augusto says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    Dear Djoko,

    Just because someone interprets Islam in a violent or way, it doesnt mean myself or any other Muslim is under any obligation to follow them, as different interpretations can be put forward to justify a different point of view. Indonesia is living proof of it, where you’ve got the whole range from Gus Dur to Abu Bakr Baasyir and everything in between.

    I wish I could agree with you on the above statement, but I have to say what I think is the truth. I know the vast majority of muslims in this country are good and peace loving people. But they are not good muslims, they are tolerant and kind at heart because they are not practicing the real islam as in the middle eastern countries. Most of them have not even read the quran or the real history of moh. They are only familiar with the islam that has been sugar-coated by their unislamic ustadaz like gus dur etc. Their javanese traditon have also trained them to be nice and compassionate to other people no matter what their background are. They are only doing all those islamic rituals like haj zakat and pray etc.

    But too bad, as we all can see we have more and more fanatic muslims that are trying to implement sharia and showing hatred and intolerance against the kuffar. This young muslims are home grown. They graduated from pesantrens and madrassas (influenced by wahabism) that preach hatred and intolerance against anything unislamic and try to subjugate anyone who oppose them, and these places some are funded by the saud oil money. This are the true/real/good muslims. They are following in moh footsteps and his pure 7th cent islamic teachings. Just like what the good muslims demand when they dream of caliphacy.

    We are lucky, most indnesian muslims are bad muslims they have never heard of the real moh and the chp 2 or 9 surah that preach a lot of violence when moh was at his peak. But how long can they ignore or remain uninformed of the truth with all those advance info tech?

    All religious people that practices any religion will try hard to become faithful. A christian will try to be a good follower of jc and his teaching, and so do muslims, hindus and budhists they will all try to emulate their prophets, his instruction and teaching. Now consider this; good christian who emulate jc will become a saint, hindust will be like ghandi, budhists will go to the hill and meditate for the rest of their life like budha did. Now imagine if all muslims emulate moh and his instruction as mention in the quran. We will all be living hell on earth just like afghanistan, pakistan, acheh and the middle eastern countries.

    Dear Odinius,

    You don’t like what you see as Islamic intolerance to others. So why are you so intolerant of Islam and Muslims? Doesn’t that make you basically what you purport to despise? And, by extension, doesn’t that make you self-loathing?

    You are wrong about me. I dont have anything against muslims. I am against the teaching of islam and moh actions, because it is intolerant and cruel. I will do the same to any religion if they start killing unbelievers in the name of their religion. I hope you will do the same too.

  24. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 9:48 pm

    Dear Augusto,
    You probably have already realized that as far as Islam is concerned you and I are on the same wavelength.
    But there is a catch. We are trying to persuade Muslims that the real Islam is not what they were taught it to be. But this can lead to a very disturbing and dangerous situation because once they lose their paradigms without proper replacement, only alienation and despair will fill the gap. Abandoning or changing ones religion is a very arduous process with many implications on a personal as well as a social level. I know from experience.
    I have thought this over many times before sending my sometimes hard and sarcastic posts but as for me I see no other solution than shock therapy. However painful it may be, the truth has to come out or nothing will change. Just like Aluang has his own style maybe this is my nature and what I do best. But I hope there will be others who are more apt in helping to assimilate and who are willing to step in to provide positive and satisfying worldviews without immediately trying to convert Muslims to any given religion because this would only create more suspicion.
    Anyway, after reading some reactions I’m convinced we are not wasting our time.

  25. avatar Odinius says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 11:07 pm

    Augusto said:

    You are wrong about me. I dont have anything against muslims. I am against the teaching of islam and moh actions, because it is intolerant and cruel. I will do the same to any religion if they start killing unbelievers in the name of their religion. I hope you will do the same too.

    So of the 1.2 billion muslims in the world, how many do you supose are “killing unbelievers in the name of their religion?” Now let me ask you a few more questions. First, how about when people are being killed, say by bombs from fighter jets, because their government doesn’t follow a specific political system? Should you oppose that political system in its entirety? Or just the government action that resulted in the deaths?

    Back to religions, do you oppose Hinduism? Because radical Hindutva in India has been implicated in every single urban riot against non-Hindus in the past 30 years. Do you oppose Christianity? Because Christian Europeans colonialized the world and, yes, did so in the name of Christianity. How about aetheism? Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were, after all, aetheists and all persecuted and massacred the religious of many denomenations.

    The point I’m getting at here is that it’s absolutely ridiculous to say “Islam is so bad” or “Christianity is so bad” or “Aetheism is so bad.” Every belief system in history has been used for good and abused for evil. The good and evil is in every one because it’s in everyone. People are to blame for their deeds, not abstract ritual systems that just determine the language with which people do their nastiness. Sometimes specified versions of these systems come about to facilitate this nastiness. This is where I’d stick the extremism of Abu Bakar Basyir. It’s also where I’d put the Turner Diaries inspired Christianity of Timothy McVeigh, the radical Hindutva of the Shiv Sena, Stalinism and Nazism.

  26. avatar Julita says:
    September 19th, 2007 at 7:45 am

    Odinius: Do you oppose Christianity? Because Christian Europeans colonialized the world and, yes, did so in the name of Christianity.

    Jlta: Please, Odinius, which colonization do you mean, all? I need the source and reference of colonization in the name of Christianity. This is new to me. Was it really Christianity, evangelization, trade, money, power or territory?
    __________________

    Odinius: I think the radical fringe of Islam does do this, but so does the radical fringe of every other religion. See: Hindutva in India, Christian terrorists like Timothy McVeigh in the US. So, for that matter, does the radical fringe of left and right wing politics, and radical nationalism.

    Jlta: A terror act that was done by one agnostic Christian ( T. McVeigh) who had gone koo, koo, not justified by the church, as well as the law and that was why he was executed. Note also in the above, he said that he lost touch with his faith. Can we take this for comparison with other terrorist acts going on in the world, I wonder.

  27. avatar Korrill says:
    September 19th, 2007 at 8:58 am

    I’ve been reading some topics and posts and just want to share some thoughts:

    To all: Christianity is not without its own sins. If you want to know more about this, search some of these topics: dark ages, witch trials, murder of hypatia, and the inquisition. Christian “missionaries” of the past have been responsible for the deaths of more christians than any other group.

    @ Sputjam: You say that the pillars of islam are man made. Guess what: SO ARE THE PILLARS OF CHRISTIANITY! You should check on the history of the christian church or, better yet, look up the topic: Council of Nicea (year 352, the first council, if I’m not mistaken). Though some tenets of christianity may really have originated from actual persons, most of those things being preached were written by persons using only the names of the supposed “disciple.” (In case you don’t get my point: The gospel of Matthew was not written by Matthew. Neither are many of the other books.)

    @ Augusto: You said: “A good christian who tries to emulate JC will become a saint.” Really? You mean the JC who said:

    “Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34)

    “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)

    “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” (Luke 19:27)

    “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

    “I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (Matthew 10:35-36)

    @ Odinius: Adolf Hitler was not an atheist, he was a christian. Why do you think he singled out the Jews if not for the christian dogma that labelled jews as christ-killers.

    @ everybody: Here’s a little challenge: try to read both the Qur’an and the Bible. Thry to see how different they both are. (Heck, why bother. They’re virtually the same since they both have the same origin – Judaism. Only the latter part and some of the teachings are vastly different.)

  28. avatar Janma says:
    September 19th, 2007 at 11:56 am

    Korril just because Adolf Hitler killed jews does not mean that he was a christian… although christians had their share of jew hating and killing, I think his angle was more from a racial viewpoint. The aryan supremecy etc…. he didn’t hate them for killing christ, he hated them for being semetic. Probably hated christ too, since He was a Jew.

  29. avatar Sylvester says:
    September 19th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    To all: Christianity is not without its own sins.

    Korril, it is not true.
    Christianity is pure, no sin. The one that has committed sin is the church. Same like Islam is generally OK, but the problem is from the evil radical imams.

  30. avatar Augusto says:
    September 19th, 2007 at 3:55 pm

    Dear Odinius,

    So of the 1.2 billion muslims in the world, how many do you supose are “killing unbelievers in the name of their religion?”

    I don’t know I have lost count. What matters to me are their intentions, motivations and the root cause of the problem. Maybe numbers are more important to you but not to me. There are more people killed due to earthquake or traffic accidents every year than in the hands of the jihadists. Does that make jihadists beheading people on tv ok to you?

    Now let me ask you a few more questions. First, how about when people are being killed, say by bombs from fighter jets, because their government doesn’t follow a specific political system? Should you oppose that political system in its entirety? Or just the government action that resulted in the deaths?

    We should eradicate the system and punish the perpetrators for doing so. And we should do the same to islam and muslims who are killing innocents in the name of allah too.

    Back to religions, do you oppose Hinduism? Because radical Hindutva in India has been implicated in every single urban riot against non-Hindus in the past 30 years. Do you oppose Christianity? Because Christian Europeans colonialized the world and, yes, did so in the name of Christianity. How about aetheism? Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were, after all, aetheists and all persecuted and massacred the religious of many denomenations.

    I am not defending or promoting any religion, as long as people are killing or doing crime in the name of their religion and it is justified according to their scriptures then I will not tolerate it. Do you think what the jihadist are doing is justified by the quran or ahadith? Or maybe they are just a tiny minority compared to 1.2 billion muslims, so let us ignore them? Christians did not colonize the world in the name of Christianity, where is that source that says so if I am mistaken? As a matter of fact muslim army were the first to concur other territories, stretching from spain to iran and some parts of Africa, even france and part of china almost fall into the hands of muslimo army. That is their concept of darul islam, caliphacy and umma. Is that done in the name of islam? Glad you mention atheism. What is there to blame atheism for if they did anything wrong? What they are doing has nothing to do with any believe system. Unlike muslim their believe system is islam and moh is the insan (ideal). All those perpetrators you mention were punished and Nazism, Stalinism etc were condemned. We should do that to moh if he is still alive today and condemn islam for spreading hatred and violence.

    The point I’m getting at here is that it’s absolutely ridiculous to say “Islam is so bad” or “Christianity is so bad” or “Aetheism is so bad.” Every belief system in history has been used for good and abused for evil. The good and evil is in every one because it’s in everyone.

    You are quite right, people are to blame for their deeds, but what if their deeds are justified or even instructed by their teaching? Should the religion be banned too? Yes many religious people abuse their religion for their own purpose, but are they all justified by their teaching? Jihadists are killing others by referring to passages from the quran and backed it up by some ahadith to justify their deeds, and many good muslims are hailing them as heroes. While other religious people who are doing crime claiming to be in the name of their religion but not proven to be justified by any of their scriptures were being most severely punished, condemned, humilated and mocked by other religious followers.

    People are to blame for their deeds, not abstract ritual systems that just determine the language with which people do their nastiness.

    I dont quite understand. Are you saying quran is abstract? I thought it said it is the clearest book from allah to mankind. Or maybe anyone can interpret the way they like, so it could be nasty or nice depending on the mood?

    Sometimes specified versions of these systems come about to facilitate this nastiness. This is where I’d stick the extremism of Abu Bakar Basyir. It’s also where I’d put the Turner Diaries inspired Christianity of Timothy McVeigh, the radical Hindutva of the Shiv Sena, Stalinism and Nazism.

    All those nastiness is the product of islam, the quran and hadith. Please read the quran again with an open mind not a closed mind like the cleric always told you to. Treat the quran as any other science book; don’t jump into the conclusion that it is word of god, perfect and must be peaceful no matter what. Investigate it, doubt it.

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