Mixed Religion Marriages
September 3rd, 2007, in News, by PatungFour ways you can possibly get around the law against mixed-religion marriages.
Some time ago Law Professor Wahyono Darmabrata of Universitas Indonesia (UI), Depok, suggested four ways those of mixed faiths could marry, they being:
- by court order
- marrying according to each partner’s religion
- submitting to your partner’s religion for marriage purposes, but without converting
- marrying overseas
The court order method is rare and was last done by one Andi Vonny Gani in 1989, however the revised law on Citizen Administration would make it more possible.
The second option, having two ceremonies, one according to the man’s religion and the other according to the woman’s, depends on a certain interpretation of a clause in the 1974 Marriage Act, however the problem of which marriage is then to be recognised by the state has Professor Wahyono stumped.
The third option is the most common, and was famously done by celebrity couple Deddy Corbuzier and Kalina in 2005. Deddy, who is Catholic, married Kalina, a Muslim, according to her faith, but did not convert to Islam. Their marriage was conducted by a celebrant from Yayasan Paramadina, which is led by Nurcholish Madjid.
Deddy Corbuzier and Kalina.
In the case of Islam this method requires finding a Muslim marriage celebrant who is willing to officiate. Orthodox interpretations of Islam forbid the practice of a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. (In the reverse case observers note that the Quran seems to permit a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman, who maintains her faith thereafter, as was done by one of Muhammad bin Abdullah’s wives, Mary the Copt.)
Those wishing to follow this method, in the case where the bride-to-be is Muslim and the groom is not, had best seek a celebrant from liberal Muslim organisations such as the Wahid Institute, the Indonesian Conference on Religion and Peace (ICRP), as well as Paramadina. Having the marriage recognised by the state afterwards is a separate issue.
Former minister of religion, Quraish Shihab, is of the opinion that the matter should be of no concern to the state, but rather be left up to each religion.
Sudhar Indopa, of the Jakarta branch of the Civil Registry office, says the state is not unwilling to accommodate such mixed marriages, but defers to authorities on religion on whether the practice is acceptable.
If religious authorities do not bless the marriage then the state cannot recognise it.
Farida Prihatini of the Islamic Law department at UI however says that the Clerics’ Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), has made mixed-religion marriages haram, or forbidden, and in principle other religions, besides Islam, do not allow them either.
It’s unacceptable, there is no [valid] marriage, it’s living in sin.
Father Andang Binawan says the Catholic church has no problem with mixed-religion marriages, provided the non-Catholic partner is willing to submit to the church’s marriage laws, and commits to monogamy and life-long partnership, but need not convert to Catholicism, regardless of whether the non-Catholic partner is male or female.
The final option, probably the simplest for those with enough money, is running off to Singapore or Australia, and is popular with celebrities, such as the Muslim Yuni Shara, who married the Protestant Henry Siahaan in Perth. Indonesian civil registry offices are bound by law to accept foreign marriage certificates as valid, however Farida Prihatini views this as unacceptable. [1]
Tags: Australia, Christian, Deddy Corbuzier, Faiths, Haram, Henry Siahaan, Islam, Islamic Law, Law, Laws, Majelis Ulama Indonesia, Marriage, MUI, Muslim, Quraish Shihab, Quran, Religion, Religions, Religious, Singapore, Wahid Institute, Wives, Yuni Shara
51 Comments on “Mixed Religion Marriages”
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Sylvester Says:
September 3rd, 2007 at 7:09 pmFarida Prihatini of the Islamic Law department at UI however says that the Clerics’ Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), has made mixed-religion marriages haram, or forbidden, and in principle other religions, besides Islam, do not allow them either.
It’s unacceptable, there is no [valid] marriage, it’s living in sin.
This is a very dumb hypocrite statement. MUI is a poison to indo society. It has to be abolished. Those morons can only see what on the outside, but never understand the inside, the real meaning of faith.
Father Andang Binawan says the Catholic church has no problem with mixed-religion marriages, provided the non-Catholic partner is willing to submit to the church’s marriage laws, and commits to monogamy and life-long partnership, but need not convert to Catholicism, regardless of whether the non-Catholic partner is male or female.
Great, the main point is living in harmony and being faithful. Religion is more a label/culture, but the faith in the heart is the essence of life.
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Sputjam Says:
September 3rd, 2007 at 8:37 pmA Muslim is a person who surrenders himself to the almighty, the koran is a guide to Muslims.
The koran forbids idol worship but present day Muslims worship and serve stones in mecca.2:221 And do not marry the pagan women until they believe. And do not marry the underage girls. Believing women are better from the pagan women although they allure you. And do not marry the idol worshippers (men/women) (musyrikeen) until they believe - and the slaves (men/women) who believe are better from the idol worshipers - although they might allure you.
By that meaning alone, a believer in God is forbidden to marry present day Muslims, nor are they to marry Christians who worship Jesus, nor Hindus, or Buddhists, nor any who serves clerics and priests.
A true believer of God serves only God by doing good deeds of righteousness. God is after all the creator of the stones in mecca, created Jesus and popes and everything else that exist in this world.
I am sure there are many out there who do not believe in religion but remains faithful to God.
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Tomaculum Says:
September 3rd, 2007 at 11:58 pmIt’s unacceptable, there is no [valid] marriage, it’s living in sin.
I prefer to live in sin and go unsolicited to the hell than to accept such idiocy.
I know many mixed pairs living happy and doing good works helping others. Which God would condemn such people?
No, I think it is not God who cursed them but some idiots. -
Dimp Says:
September 4th, 2007 at 5:36 amNo, I think it is not God who cursed them but some idiots.
And unfortunately some people think that these idiots are the representation of God… sad.
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Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
September 4th, 2007 at 6:45 amAssalamualaikum mas tomaculum,
I know many mixed pairs living happy and doing good works helping others. Which God would condemn such people?
The non-believer spouse that do not convert is dragging the partner into committing fitnah. See below, no GOD should be worshipped except Allah.
Qur’an 59:22 “Allah is He, no other Ilah (God) may be worshiped
They will be living in sin because they neglected their spirituality. This is where good Muslims come in and show them the right path. If they still do not accept the truth, then,
Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah….”
If we do nothing, we will be roasted in hell for not trying. See below,
Qur’an:4:75 “What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah’s Cause?”
Salam.
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September 4th, 2007 at 7:57 amSpeaking of which….
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September 4th, 2007 at 8:40 amAllah is not GOD. Allah is a moon god from paganic Arabs.
Correct me if I am wrong. -
Hassan Says:
September 4th, 2007 at 10:27 amAllah is a moon god? Well I guess if you ask your priests who knew nothing about Islam or look up those anti-Islam websites who obviously had slander and anti-Islam propaganda on their mind, then obviously that will be their answer. The truth? Far from it. I’ll correct you Sylvester, as you’re clearly mistaken.
Open these links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZRJctycXM
http://godallah.com/moon_god.php
http://www.mostmerciful.com/moongod.htmThis single verse from The Quran will debunk the so-called ‘moon god’ myth:
The Quran 41-37: “And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him.”If Allah SWT is a moon good, then He would tell Muslims to bow to the moon instead of prohibiting them, wouldn’t He? The moon is His creation, and NOT Allah SWT.
Aluang Anak Bawang: You are clearly putting the verses out of context. You cut the verses and gave you’re own interpretations to them. The last time I checked, there’s no such thing as ‘Aluang’s Version of The Quran’.
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September 4th, 2007 at 10:53 amBy grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala.
Assalamualaikum mas Hassan,
Probably Sylvester meant the name ‘Allah’ was taken from a moon God, and then elevated to a status above all Gods. Here is an example.
Everyone knows Rudolf the red nose reindeer. Now someone adopted the same name ‘Rudolf’ for his pet camel, and proclaim his camel ‘Rudolf’ to be above all bovines. “Prostrate not to the elks nor to the reindeers, but prostrate to Rudold who create them.”
I may be wrong but this is how I read it.
Re,
Aluang Anak Bawang: You are clearly putting the verses out of context. You cut the verses and gave you’re own interpretations to them. The last time I checked, there’s no such thing as ‘Aluang’s Version of The Quran’.
Alhumdullilah, I did the best I can. I am sure you agree with me that there should not be mixed religion marriages as these will weaken our faith. If I am wrong, inshallah, it was already predestinated 50,000 before the Big Bang. Allah seethe, heareth and knoweth all things.
Salam.
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September 4th, 2007 at 11:29 amAluang, I know you’re just joking,
but my question for them who believe in this
“The non-believer spouse that do not convert is dragging the partner into committing fitnah. See below, no GOD should be worshipped except Allah.”Are we at one with the belief, that there is only one God?
If this God really said this:
“Qur’an 59:22 “Allah is He, no other Ilah (God) may be worshiped”
or this
“Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah”¦.””then expectedly this questions would come up:
“Isn’t this God a schizophrenic God with many personality which deny and fight each other?”
or
“Are we too stupid and too pigheaded to understand what he meant, who ever he is and where ever he has gone?”
or
“Is God only a product of our hyperbolical, anxious imagination?” -
September 4th, 2007 at 1:07 pmAluang Anak Bawang: Please do not use Allah’s name and then justify the wrong conception about Him within the same post (with the Rudolph analogy). And stop pretending to sound like a Muslim, we all knew who you are. Aren’t you suppose to prepare some ’sesajen’ somewhere?
Anyway, your Rudolph analogy was mistaken too.
Wiki stated that:
Most Arabic-speaking Christian and Jewish Communities (including the Yemenite Jews, several Mizraḥi communities and some Sephardim), as well as Eastern Christians living in Muslim countries (such as Orthodox Christians in Turkey), use “AllÄh” as the proper noun for “God”. The name’s origin can be traced back to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh Allah is the standard Arabic word for “God” and is used by Arab Christians as well.”
The word ‘Allah’ in the Indonesian language, means God, it is used alternatively with the word “Tuhan”.
So, the Arabic name of Il, Al-Ilah or Allah is the Hebrew equivalent of El, an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh, and those names only refer to the One True God, not some moon good or anything else. The full wikipedia entry can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
Interestingly, this fact was acknowledged and verified by an honest Christian website under the Christian Churches of God.
The names for God in Hebrew were:
Eloah (Singular form); and
Elohim (plural form).
El was a short form and could mean mighty as applied to a person.El had the same meaning. Both the Hebrew and the Chaldean appear in the Bible texts using these forms. The book of Ezra shows that the name Eloah is the title of the God of the Temple at Jerusalem. This name is singular and admits of no plurality. It refers to the one True God alone.
In the eastern Aramaic the singular Elahh became Allah’ in the Arabic in this way. Elahh was referred to as Al Elahh or The God in the singular as it appears in the Bible text and the Chaldean. It then became Al’ilãh in the Arabic from the eastern Aramaic. The two hh sound being expressed as an aspirant with the final letter h of Allah. Thus the ancient Arabic form was Al’ilãh altering the double h sound. Islam under Muhammed carried on the name Allah because it was singular and it admits of no plurality.
You can read the rest in this link: http://www.logon.org/english/s/p054.html
Case closed.
Tomaculum: There’s a saying “kalau mengikuti orang kesasar, ya pasti kita kesasar juga”. As I’ve said, Aluang is hardly an authoritative source of Islam, as he is a ‘kejawen’ Javanese himself.
Quran 59:22 basically meant that there is nothing in this universe worthy of worship but Allah SWT. We should not worship anything or anyone (as in the case of the Pharaohs of Egypt), we should worship only Him.
If you failed to grasp it, it’s because the style of the Arabic language is different than Indonesian or English, it’s more.. let’s just say poetic. And we must remember the possibility of translation bias, as a certain language sometimes fail to grasp the entire meaning of another language.
Quran 2:193 the word ‘they’ in this verse meant the disbeliever. So it probably would sound like this to make it easier for you to understand: “Fight them (the disbeliever, pagans) until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah”¦.”
No such thing as Gods fighting each other there, right?
“Is God only a product of our hyperbolical, anxious imagination?”
If I ask that to a Christian/Catholic, like you maybe, wouldn’t I be considered committing heresy? Respect others.
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September 4th, 2007 at 1:10 pmBy grace of Alah Subhana Wata’ala.
Assalamualaikum mas tomaculum,
You are indeed a rabble-rouser by dismissing my earnest postings as jokes.
Tell that to the 3 school girls who was beheaded. Yes, it was an Islamic prank that 2 Korean Aids workers were murdered.
Do you think it is a joke when Syafii Ma’arif said Islam is on a triumphant march across the globe by immigrantion and high birth rate? or Professor El Naggar said that Allah sent down tsunami and earthquake upon Achnese and Javanese for letting Christian celebrate Christmas? or Sheik Bin Baz, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa in 1966 ruling that the world is flat according to the Quran? or “thighing” was approved of by Islamic cleric Khomeini?
These are some western educated and Islamic learned scholars who studied the holy Quran for their livelihood, and they can’t be wrong. How could you accuse me of ‘joking’ when I rehash what they said? You are listening too much to Indonesian pseudo-Muslims. The Islam in Indonesia is a weird mix of Hinduism, Buddhism and Abangan, but packaged under the brand name Islam.
Salam.
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September 4th, 2007 at 9:55 pmHassan, nice to read your comments again.
If I ask that to a Christian/Catholic, like you maybe, wouldn’t I be considered committing heresy? Respect others.
As I’ve told you in one of my comments, I am an agnostic, forgot it?
To your words:
Quran 2:193 the word ‘they’ in this verse meant the disbeliever. So it probably would sound like this to make it easier for you to understand: “Fight them (the disbeliever, pagans) until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah”¦.”
No such thing as Gods fighting each other there, right?
Who is a disbeliever or pagans? People who beliefs in “other” God than Allah, isn’t it?
Isn’t it the defintion of these words in Islam?
Isn’t the words in Qur’an 2:193 a call to fight the follower of other beliefs? Why didn’t he use the word persuade for example?Quran 59:22 basically meant that there is nothing in this universe worthy of worship but Allah SWT. We should not worship anything or anyone (as in the case of the Pharaohs of Egypt), we should worship only Him.
That is the view transported by Al Qur’an, what about the Christian God? Isn’t He the same One with yours only with a little bit other words or better: interpretations?
Hassan, sorry, but such statements sounds for me like a call to fight each other, directly or not.
This question is directed to all religions, and it is a question. Respect the opinion of others, OK?
Is God only a product of our hyperbolical, anxious imagination?
Aluang,
Tell that to the 3 school girls who was beheaded. Yes, it was an Islamic prank that 2 Korean Aids workers were murdered.
Let the girls and the workers in peace, OK?
Still, for me are those people you listed clowns, dangerous clowns. Not Islam is a joke, but those people babble jokes one after another.
And … sorry … your sarcastic subtleness develops to jokes cause it is so easy to figure out.
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September 4th, 2007 at 10:02 pmAluang anak bayang and hassan are followers of the pagan Arab religion who worship stones in mecca.
During the time of Mohamed, the same pagan Arabs made fun of him and mocked him, calling him crazy etc., while the Arabs continued worshipping the stone.Aluang anak bayang and hassan says that God has to be worshipped, but the koran says otherwise.
a) the koran did not call for mankind to participate in any religion or to perform religious rituals.
b) the koran did not mention how god is to be worshipped.
c) The koran in fact forbids idol worshipping, which the Muslim practise, by worshipping their stones in mecca. In fact the majority of mankind perform some kind of idol worship, either to statues, men (Jesus, stalin, Kim Il sung, clerics), objects like lucky charms etc.
d) the koran warns mankind against clerics and priests, but present day Muslims ignore the advice.
e)All previous prophets did not profit financially from dispersing God’s messages, but present day Muslims are forced to pay religious tax in the form of zakat to the clerics.
g) messages in the koran reminded mankind repeatedly that for the faithful, we will be judged by our deeds alone. Not the number of times we worship, nor the number of pious children we have.Some koranic translations are incorrectly done in order to promote an Arab religion. So beware of the dejected (iblis).
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dewaratugedeanom Says:
September 4th, 2007 at 11:07 pmHassan said
If I ask that to a Christian/Catholic, like you maybe, wouldn’t I be considered committing heresy? Respect others.
Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir? And don’t make me repeat the verses because they have already been mentioned hundreds of times in this forum.
Aluang said
Tell that to the 3 school girls who was beheaded. Yes, it was an Islamic prank that 2 Korean Aids workers were murdered.
Bearing this in mind and if we have to respect each and every belief does it mean we are also not allowed to criticize the ancient meso-American religions (Maya, Aztec, Toltec) that practiced barbaric human sacrifice by the tens of thousands?
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September 4th, 2007 at 11:37 pmRe,
“kalau mengikuti orang kesasar, ya pasti kita kesasar juga” As I’ve said, Aluang is hardly an authoritative source of Islam, as he is a ‘kejawen’ Javanese himself.
You are no better than I am. At least I am requoting from learned Islamic scholars.
and,
Still, for me are those people you listed clowns, dangerous clowns. Not Islam is a joke, but those people babble jokes one after another.
Hell NO! These people studied the holy Quran all their lives, and they are spot on. I will have a safer bet on them with correct interpretations rather than Sputjamdiyah’s or prophet Hassan’s (pbuh) version.
Salam.
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September 5th, 2007 at 1:41 pmAluang Anak Bayang Says:
Hell NO! These people studied the holy Quran all their lives, and they are spot on. I will have a safer bet on them with correct interpretations rather than Sputjamdiyah’s or prophet Hassan’s (pbuh) version
Your obligation is to study the koran yourself. Read! Read in the name of your Lord.
The koran has warnings concerning preist and clerics. You may ignore that warning at your own peril. You want these religious scholars to decide your fate, so be it.
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Ihaknt Says:
September 5th, 2007 at 2:23 pmGuys, maybe Hassan = Aluang?? He disappeared and Aluang ‘appeared’.
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Odinius Says:
September 6th, 2007 at 11:07 pmOh MUI when will you finally become SECURE in your faith? Mixed marriages don’t mean people turn away from a religion, look at the USA, more mixed marriages than anywhere else in the world, yet it has grown more Christian in the past few decades, that people should be able to marry whoever they want goes without saying.
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September 7th, 2007 at 9:57 pmSputjam said
Your obligation is to study the koran yourself. Read! Read in the name of your Lord.
Do it.
There are 3 possible outcomes:
“¢ You submit and become indoctrinated.
“¢ You wonder whether it is a joke.
“¢ You are disgusted. -
September 7th, 2007 at 10:17 pmUm or a fourth possibility, you fnd some of it quite good and other parts less so.
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Hassan Says:
September 9th, 2007 at 11:36 amdewaratugedeanom:
Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir?
How about if all of the 160 millions or so Muslims in Indonesia return the favor, and stop respecting Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity? Better yet, how about if all of the major religions in Indonesia stop respecting each other, even hating each other? Is that what you want? Do you want to spread hatred between our religions?
The thing is, it’s not about what you think about the teachings of other religions. Who are we to judge the truth about other people’s faith? The key word is TOLERANCE.
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September 9th, 2007 at 11:52 amtomaculum:
Who is a disbeliever or pagans? People who beliefs in “other” God than Allah, isn’t it?
Not quite. By Islamic definitions pagans are polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah (God), those who worship others along with Allah, and also those who set up rivals with (or partners to) Allah.
Now followers of other religions that believed in the Oneness of God are not considered pagans, and since the followers of every religion in Indonesia believed in “Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa” means none of us (if we actually believed in the Oneness of God as the statement clearly dictates) can be considered as pagans.
Isn’t the words in Qur’an 2:193 a call to fight the follower of other beliefs?
No. It’s a call for the early Muslims of Muhammad’s (pbuh) time to take up arms against their pagan Arab oppressors. Transcripts from Tafsir Ibn Kathir (a prominent Islamic scholar whose Quranic interpretation is widely used):
He said, “That we did during the time of Allah’s Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.
The conclusion, to find out the true meaning of Quranic verses we must place them on their proper contexts. We can’t just read partially and then say, ‘I presume that’s what it meant’.
BTW tom, I’m curious, what led you into being an atheist? What led you to believe that the universe was created by a set of (continuous) random occurrences (although statistically, you will have a much better chance to stack up a huge amount of sand in a plot of land and find a sand made empire state sized building in that place the next day, complete with sand made running elevators, air conditioners, cars in the parking lot, etc.)? As the universe is made up of atoms bunching up together to form all things, much like the sand in my analogy.
Honestly, I’m not trying to cynically question your reasoning tom, I’m just trying to have an insight on your ‘faith’.
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September 9th, 2007 at 12:04 pmAluang Anak Bawang:
You are no better than I am.
At least I’m not advocating Islam under false pretenses like you, Aluang. Acting as if you’re promoting Islam while in fact your intentions was to defame the religion.
ihaknt: maybe ihaknt = dimp?? they began posting at about the same time, started to use acronyms to shorten their long nicknames at about the same time, and now dimp disappeared and ihaknt ‘appeared’. But I think Patung banned one person from posting comments using different names a long time ago.
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Pakmantri Says:
September 9th, 2007 at 12:46 pmHassan Says:
Aluang Anak Bawang: You are clearly putting the verses out of context. You cut the verses and gave you’re own interpretations to them. The last time I checked, there’s no such thing as ‘Aluang’s Version of The Quran’.
Isn’t that what most of the clerics, imam, ulama or mullah do? The same goes to the priests or leaders of other religions with the verses from their “good books”. Whatever best to serve their purposes is the right one.
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September 9th, 2007 at 1:06 pmBTW tom, I’m curious, what led you into being an atheist?
Again, Hassan, I am an agnostic, I am non-religious but not atheist. The question about which or what kind of God I do not deny, is a very personal matter I don’t like to expatiate here in this forum.
I’m curious, that you didn’t get what I meant.
If you or other believe that God exists in your way of believing with names you’ve given, then it is your personal business.
For me are the personification of the higher and maybe transcendent entity and the becoming of the universe with the for-us-so-important-grain-of-sand-we-named-earth complex matters we won’t understand completely and not so easy like creating the world in 7 days.
The problem is if one (surely not you ) begins to “bother” others with different faith. -
September 9th, 2007 at 1:44 pmOnly Christianity tells us that the world was created in 7 days (and God had to rest after 6 days of hard work), but I guess that’s not the entire point.
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September 9th, 2007 at 2:43 pmHahah Hassan nice try. Patung shortened our names not us. Dimp even asked me why when it happened. I wouldnt change my name and I made clear about it ages ago. Dimp is a friend of mine, we live in the city and we sometimes discuss this forum on our personal email and sometimes even have different views on things, like I dont give a sh*t bout God, while he is quite a religious person. And yet we are good friends. We both dont understand how some people have no common sense, blinded by religions, or use their brain to think, not just limited in this site but also in many occasions.
Obviously you were offended that I took you to the same level as Aluang. Woohoo, I pi**ed you off…AGAIN. But Dimp is a good top bloke so I am ok if I ‘am’ him. Hi Dimp!! Cheers. -
September 9th, 2007 at 4:48 pmHassan said
How about if all of the 160 millions or so Muslims in Indonesia return the favor, and stop respecting Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity? Better yet, how about if all of the major religions in Indonesia stop respecting each other, even hating each other? Is that what you want? Do you want to spread hatred between our religions?
How does this answer the question I asked?
Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir?
What I understand from your answer is that it is just a covered threat about a 160 million or so Muslims outnumbering the other faiths. I assure you that I’m not impressed by numbers. For me quality comes first.
The core of my question however you did not touch. The hatred comes from Islam in the first place, not from the other faiths. I never heard or saw a Christian, Hindu or Buddhist blowing himself up shouting Allahu Akbar. -
September 9th, 2007 at 8:03 pmOnly Christianity tells us that the world was created in 7 days (and God had to rest after 6 days of hard work), but I guess that’s not the entire point.
No, that’s not the entire point, the entire point is that these discussions about religions, Gods, Allahs etc, etc are becoming boring, because there is not a pinch of change in our credo and insistency, not a micrometer of approach I can see here in this forum or anywhere else.
Every one persists that his belief, his God is the real one.
And at the end … we’ll kill us each other, we will burn our hoses of worship, we will rape our sisters and mothers and daughters.
And then we will start again to discuss. -
September 9th, 2007 at 10:14 pmdewaratugedeanom:
Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir?
First of all we must understand the reason for such wording in the Quran. It is a common knowledge that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic One True God doesn’t like His creations to worship anything other than Him, to worship others along with Him, or to set up rivals with (or partners to) Him. Try to at least imagine to be in His position, He created these thinking but otherwise insignificant beings, took care of them, gave them everything they needed to survive (and prosper), then they worship these false gods, or worship Him but planted the wrong image about Him on their minds.
If our God doesn’t like idolaters, pagans, and kaffir then that’s His right and prerogative. Can we object to what He likes and dislikes? If God then sends His messages through His Holy Scriptures that tells us He dislikes certain things, are we in a position to scrutinize His will? This is a matter of faith, I’m not expecting you to understand this, but tolerance is in order to preserve harmony between the followers of the different faiths in Indonesia.
What I understand from your answer is that it is just a covered threat about a 160 million or so Muslims outnumbering the other faiths. I assure you that I’m not impressed by numbers. For me quality comes first.
On the contrary, it wasn’t a threat. I reassure you I’m not trying to impress you with numbers. I said that to stimulate your mind and heart of what might happen if we use hatred in our dealings with other faiths, but I didn’t seem to succeed in doing so. Hate vs hate, who will prevail? Everyone will be the looser, that’s for sure.
The core of my question however you did not touch. The hatred comes from Islam in the first place, not from the other faiths.
That’s a subjective matter of opinion. In my opinion, Islam never spread hatred. Show me any verse in the Quran that says we must destroy any other religions, or specifically target the followers of Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism to be killed. On a lighter note, in our discussion, all the hatred doesn’t seem to came from the so called hateful Muslim, but came from dewaratugedeanom and whatever religion he embraced. We are what we do, right?
I never heard or saw a Christian, Hindu or Buddhist blowing himself up shouting Allahu Akbar.
Correction, in WWII certain Shintos and Buddhists shouts ‘Banzai!’ before they blow themselves up, it’s called a kamikaze attack. Jokes aside, obviously, those Muslims who blew themselves up in suicide attacks did those for political reasons, not religious ones. Why was it so difficult for you to differentiate their real intentions?
Palestinians who bombed Tel Aviv did those things to try to liberate their country from the Israeli occupation or to take revenge for what the Israeli did in the past, and NOT to destroy Judaism. Iraqis did that to try to make the Americans to leave their country or make the Americans pay for what they did, and NOT to destroy Christianity. Talibans did that for the same reasons, but with the addition of NATO forces besides the Americans.
Conclusion, NONE of them did it for the glory of their religion. It was not ordained nor approved by the religion, nor prescribed in the Quran or Hadith. Looks like someone likes to play the blame game.
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September 9th, 2007 at 10:58 pmDear ignorant dewaratugedeanom,
Perhap what Hassan meant was the rape of Chinese women by the muslim mobs to the cries of ‘Allahu Akhbar’ during the 1998 riot was directed at the Jews. The 2005 muslims mob at Poso chanting ‘Allahu Akhbar’ was just a sing-along lullaby. Islam is the religion of peace.
Repent.
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September 10th, 2007 at 7:51 amHassan said:
Palestinians who bombed Tel Aviv did those things to try to liberate their country from the Israeli occupation or to take revenge for what the Israeli did in the past, and NOT to destroy Judaism. Iraqis did that to try to make the Americans to leave their country or make the Americans pay for what they did, and NOT to destroy Christianity. Talibans did that for the same reasons, but with the addition of NATO forces besides the Americans.
There’s a big difference between those who commit violence because they are influenced by their understanding of religious belief (see: jihad) and those who commit violence because of other reasons but this happens to fall along religious lines (see: sectarian violence).
While I would agree that Palestinian violence against Israelis is overwhelmingly political, as you claim, so is Israeli violence against Palestinians. But for some extremists on both sides, it derives from religious “mandates” about controlling territory in Israel/Palestine. Little of the violence in Iraq is actually against Americans. Most is between Shia and Sunni. Of all the violence in Iraq, much of it is sectarian, though some (such as bombing Shia mosques) is clearly religious. In all these examples, though, religiousmotivations to violence are secondary to political ones.
The Taliban, though, formed in the 1990s as a religious organization of students that believed it was its religious duty to spread, by warfare, its understanding of what an Islamic state should look like. Thus, their violence is absolutely, fundamentally religious in nature, while it is also political.
Muslims, of course, are not the only ones who commit religious violence. Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, etc. also do it in other places in the world. It’s not a scripture problem, it’s a people problem.
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September 10th, 2007 at 7:34 pmHassan said
That’s a subjective matter of opinion. In my opinion, Islam never spread hatred. Show me any verse in the Quran that says we must destroy any other religions, or specifically target the followers of Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism to be killed. On a lighter note, in our discussion, all the hatred doesn’t seem to came from the so called hateful Muslim, but came from dewaratugedeanom and whatever religion he embraced. We are what we do, right?
Speaking of TOLERANCE
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”
Qur’an 40:70 “Those who deny the Book and what We have sent down with Our Apostles will soon come to have iron collars and chains around their necks; they will be dragged through boiling water and then trust into the Fire to be burnt.”
Qur’an 9:111 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”Now tell me, who is spreading hate?
But of course, all these verses are taken out of context… And the translation might not reflect exactly the original meaning… And in Arab it sounds so much better… Etcetera, etcetera. We all have heard this before.
When pointing out the reality behind other people’s believes or hypothesis is called spreading hate, than so be it. If your faith is that strong as you pretend it to be you wouldn’t even bother to defend it, unless it’s just a mask to hide a different agenda.Jokes aside, obviously, those Muslims who blew themselves up in suicide attacks did those for political reasons, not religious ones. Why was it so difficult for you to differentiate their real intentions?
I thought sharia doesn’t make a distinction between politics and religion. Isn’t it Dar Al Islam versus Dar Al Harb? Correct me if I’m wrong.
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September 11th, 2007 at 7:06 pmAluang Anak Bawang:
Perhap what Hassan meant was the rape of Chinese women by the muslim mobs to the cries of ‘Allahu Akhbar’ during the 1998 riot was directed at the Jews. The 2005 muslims mob at Poso chanting ‘Allahu Akhbar’ was just a sing-along lullaby.
The rape of Chinese women while chanting ‘God is great!’ doesn’t make any religious sense. If you heard on the news that some tourist raped Indonesian women while chanting “in the name of the father, son, and the holy ghost” your logic will tell you there’s something wrong with the picture.
Obviously those who cried ‘Allahu Akbar’ during the 1998 riot did those things either trying to: A) Justify their barbaric acts and guise them under religious pretenses. B) Deliberately trying to defame Islam and Muslims. C) Trying to incite inter-religious hatred and further acts of violence, the same way they had done successfully in Poso.
Why Aluang? Because there’s no such teaching in Islam that tells Muslims to chant ‘Allahu Akbar’ before raping anyone else, capiche? And some of you are just too ignorant to fall for such sectarian violence incitement acts.
As for Poso, we all knew who started it, didn’t we? And besides, both parties are equally guilty of horrendous acts of violence. If the Muslim mob chanted ‘Allahu Akbar’ then the heavily (foreign) armed Christian mob must’ve chanted ‘haleluya’ or whatever religious call they might use.
Instead of keep throwing weak and dubious arguments around, why don’t you just focus on your ’sesajen’ giving ceremonies or your ‘bertapa’ on secluded places that might give you a better chance of enlightenment, although I doubt it.
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September 11th, 2007 at 7:09 pmdewaratugedeanom: You’re bunching up verses that were addressed to Muslims on Muhammad’s (pbuh) time, verses that were addressed to Muslims of all time but missed the real meaning and context, and verses regarding what will happen on Judgment Day to make your point. It looks like you’re not much of a Qur’an expert, are you? Or was it intentional to suit your agendas?
Anyway, I think we both know that the true meanings of those verses, as some Muslims on other forums must’ve pointed them out to you (and I wont bother to explain to you again), but yet you still use them to suit your arguments (which reminded me of certain politicians in our country). Perhaps you had been too busy posting on forums such as faithfreedom.org to notice that.
When pointing out the reality behind other people’s believes or hypothesis is called spreading hate, than so be it.
No, spreading hate is to dish out false informations or informations based on false understanding of certain matters in order to make other people from different faith and beliefs hate one another. You’re trying to make Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. in Indonesia and worldwide hate Islam and Muslims, aren’t you? That means you’re trying to pit the followers of certain religion(s) against the followers of another religion(s). Do you want inter-religious hatred to spread in Indonesia? Was that not an act of spreading hatred? One thing for sure, you’re not trying to spread peace and harmony among religious followers.
If your faith is that strong as you pretend it to be you wouldn’t even bother to defend it, unless it’s just a mask to hide a different agenda.
An insult to one’s faith is an insult of one’s own being. Religion is a part of what makes a person’s identity, and the insult to the thing that a person revere is a direct affront to that person. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to prove that sentiment, just go inside a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or Vihara then start insulting the particular religion in front of the congregation to receive the answer. That doesn’t mean they’re masking a ‘different agenda’, that simply means they’re insulted by your vulgar rudeness.
As for me, my reaction will be the same as those normal people I pictured above. If I don’t like my religion being insulted and slandered, that’s normal. I don’t think it’s me who might mask a hidden agenda, I think you are the one who had a ‘different agenda’. Perhaps you would like the freedom to insult other religions and get away with it.
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September 11th, 2007 at 10:02 pmHassan said
You’re bunching up verses that were addressed to Muslims on Muhammad’s (pbuh) time, verses that were addressed to Muslims of all time but missed the real meaning and context, and verses regarding what will happen on Judgment Day to make your point.
If you would have said “only addressed to and for Arabs in Muhammad’s time ” the verses might have had some relevance. But if Islam is meant to be a religion for all people of all times then those so-called ‘revelations’ are not only misleading but also understood as provocations. Unless of course the Arabs were the chosen people and meant to become the rulers of the world. The Jews, who also consider themselves a chosen people, at least don’t have the pretention to try to convert the world and make everybody submit or pay jizya tax.
You’re trying to make Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. in Indonesia and worldwide hate Islam and Muslims, aren’t you? That means you’re trying to pit the followers of certain religion(s) against the followers of another religion(s). Do you want inter-religious hatred to spread in Indonesia? Was that not an act of spreading hatred? One thing for sure, you’re not trying to spread peace and harmony among religious followers.
You better say that to your brothers Amrozi, Imron, Samudra dkk. who are still alive and kicking and considered hero’s by many followers of your faith.
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September 11th, 2007 at 10:25 pmBy the grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala, the most merciful, most compassionate.
Perhap it is high time that mas Hassan should starts conversing or debate with clerics accused of defaming the good name of Islam.
Salam.
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September 12th, 2007 at 6:45 pmTo finish my last post from yesterday:
Hassan said
It looks like you’re not much of a Qur’an expert, are you? Or was it intentional to suit your agendas?
A koranic navel-gazer I may not be but I still know the facts of history.
An insult to one’s faith is an insult of one’s own being. Religion is a part of what makes a person’s identity, and the insult to the thing that a person revere is a direct affront to that person.
Everyday and everywhere people convert from one religion to another, even lose their religion, without losing their identity. Many start to hate the religion they grew up with because they realized it was a lie and a scam. Others even discovered their real identity after conversion. We had examples here in Indonesia Matters. Remember Ismail.
I don’t think it’s me who might mask a hidden agenda, I think you are the one who had a ‘different agenda’. Perhaps you would like the freedom to insult other religions and get away with it.
I do not have a hidden agenda. I only want to expose the scam of Islam and its so-called prophet. To put it quite frankly: Islam has to go. At least from where I live to begin with.
Correction, in WWII certain Shintos and Buddhists shouts ‘Banzai!’ before they blow themselves up, it’s called a kamikaze attack.
Then the Yankees dropped ‘Little Boy’ and ‘Fat Man’ and a few days later the war was over. No more Banzai, only Bonsai. Capiche?
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September 13th, 2007 at 12:56 amdewaratugedeanom said:
I only want to expose the scam of Islam and its so-called prophet. To put it quite frankly: Islam has to go. At least from where I live to begin with.
And with those words, he became the very thing he claimed to despise…
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September 14th, 2007 at 9:37 amThis for dewaratugedeanom.
You can disregard the koran if you want. For it is only a guide book. But let us focus on some violent phrases which I think you may have misquoted. The following example is for you to judge -This is a translation of the koran by Yusof Ali:-
190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
And this is another version by Aidid Safar:-
The Quran encourages promoting its values and recipients are duty bound to take the challenge to fight against falsehood.
2:190 You shall confront in the path of God against those who confront against you - and there shall be no aggression. Indeed God - He dislikes those who are aggressive.
2:191 And you shall confront them wherever you are confronted - and expel them from wherever they expel you - and slandering is worse than fighting. And do not confront them by the sanctioned consented decrees - unless they confront you in it. Therefore, when they confront you - you must confront them. That would be the just response for those who do not trust.
2:192 Thus - if they refrain - then, God is forgiver - merciful.
2:193 And you must confront them until there is no more slandering. And the orderly way of life is for God alone. Therefore if they refrain - thus there shall be no more hostility - except over those who are unjust.These are some of the examples of the verses in the koran that was wrongly translated in order to promote an ancient arab religion.
The truth is that the koran does not promote any religion and does not contain any ritual worship.
Religion (idol worship) in itself is sinful. Any religion. The priest and clerics will lead you away from God’s way of life.
You do not require to be in any religion to call to God, or be in a special temple or mosque, nor face in a certain direction. Anyone can make a call to God in any language.
But if insist in going to religious places, or asking priests and clerics for assistance, then you do not have faith. It is as simple as that. -
September 14th, 2007 at 11:00 pmOdinius said
And with those words, he became the very thing he claimed to despise”¦
So what do you propose? To sit on the fence with the moderates and watch violence and intolerance take over? Or just turn the other cheek?
Sputjam said
You can disregard the koran if you want. For it is only a guide book. But let us focus on some violent phrases which I think you may have misquoted.
If it is a guide book then it is a very badly written one. Everybody seems to have his own interpretation, from Osama Bin Laden to Gus Dur, from Hassan to Muhammad Khafi, from Cukurungan to Sputjam.
And we kaffir are catched in the middle. -
September 15th, 2007 at 12:01 amdewaratugedeanom said:
So what do you propose? To sit on the fence with the moderates and watch violence and intolerance take over? Or just turn the other cheek?
Ever heard the phrase “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind?”
I live in a country where about 20% of the population are intolerant christians. every summer i spend in a country where about 20% of the country are intolerant muslims. I fail to see much difference, aside from a distinct lack of tolerance and mutual respect.
In fact, the intolerant people of the world have so much in common, I wish they’d just go live in Antarctica or somewhere far off from the rest of us, who can live together quite nicely, thank you. There they can fight each other to their hearts content.
I may not agree with his creationism and religious certainty, but Hassan is undoubtedly right that tolerance and mutual respect are the only way forward…
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September 15th, 2007 at 12:15 amRe dewaratugedeanom’s,
So what do you propose? To sit on the fence with the moderates and watch violence and intolerance take over? Or just turn the other cheek?
Fear not. All kaffirs are protected by the Shariah.
If it is a guide book then it is a very badly written one. Everybody seems to have his own interpretation, from Osama Bin Laden to Gus Dur, from Hassan to Muhammad Khafi, from Cukurungan to Sputjam.
And we kaffir are catched in the middle.We have two distinct group there: the Bad and Good muslims.
The Bad ones are Gus Dur, Mas Khafi and Sputjam. They are the harbingers of tsunamis and earthquakes for misinterpreting the Quran.The Good ones are Osama Bin Laden and Hassan. Usually they are of Middle Eastern stocks. Tag along is Sheikh Cuk but I am hopeful he will jump ship as he is tanah darah Indonesia.
Re Odinius’s
I live in a country where about 20% of the population are intolerant christians. every summer i spend in a country where about 20% of the country are intolerant muslims. I fail to see much difference, aside from a distinct lack of tolerance and mutual respect.
Wait till you go to heaven. The paradise is teemed with religious people as both Islam and Christianity promised heaven.
Salam.
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September 15th, 2007 at 3:30 pmOdinius
Ever heard the phrase “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind?”
I was talking about Islam, not about those who had to grow up in it.
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September 15th, 2007 at 5:22 pmdewaratugedeanom:
I do not have a hidden agenda. I only want to expose the scam of Islam and its so-called prophet
If Islam was as bad as what you said it was, I don’t think you’ll need to expose anything about Islam. Because people are generally intelligent, means that they can differentiate the right from the wrong. They don’t need you to tell them what is good and what is evil, they’ll stay clear off Islam the moment that they feel Islam’s evil. The way you have to resort to slander in order to defame Islam only proved Islam’s decent nature and righteous values, and your own moral flaws.
You don’t see Muslims slandering other religions, do you? Besides, who elected you as the people’s “savior” anyway?
I think you’ve been hanging around in faithfreedom.org too much, and their manifesto is starting to affect your behavior. You know what? I believe you can consider yourself as a genuine radical in whatever religion you’re currently embracing.
To put it quite frankly: Islam has to go
Ahmadinejad said Israel should be wiped off the map and the West calls him as a terrorist. You wanted to get rid of one of the world’s major religion and millions of it’s followers, so that makes you what? A master terrorist? Faithfreedom.org had clearly radicalized you.
We had examples here in Indonesia Matters. Remember Ismail.
Ismail was just a standard hateful bigot. I had previous encounters with him, and I can tell you that he was like a broken record who will talk about the same things over and over again with no particular substantiation. An apostate who likes to badmouth his previous religion is quite common in any religion, nothing special about that. It’s a pity you have to idolize someone like Ismail. Hadn’t Odinius told you that tolerance and mutual respect is the only way forward”¦ for Indonesia and humanity as a whole.
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September 16th, 2007 at 3:42 pmHassan
You don’t see Muslims slandering other religions, do you?
Muslims don’t have to slander other religions. The Qur’an already does it for them.
Besides, you accused me of putting koranic verses out of context, but you are doing just the same with my posts.
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September 19th, 2007 at 2:18 pmdewaratugedeanom: Which part of your posts had I placed out of context? Can you elaborate on that please?
Muslims don’t have to slander other religions. The Qur’an already does it for them.
That is a subjective matter, isn’t it? Depends on how you approach the Quranic verses, whether with compassion and humility, or with hatred and suspicion. Clearly you seemed to use the hatred and suspicion approach.
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Tuan Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 12:35 pmOh MUI when will you finally become SECURE in your faith? Mixed marriages don’t mean people turn away from a religion, look at the USA, more mixed marriages than anywhere else in the world, yet it has grown more Christian in the past few decades, that people should be able to marry whoever they want goes without saying.
As someone who was born and raised here in the US. I would say Christianity is losing some ground in the US. Islam is slowly becoming the second largest faith in the USA with a third of it being converts (or reverts). There are some frightened individuals in the US particularly some government officials who wants to maintain a Caucasian Christian US identity (A large migration of Hispanics and growing number of Muslims). Though I think their fears are invalid since Muslims just want to live peacefully here in the US and not in countries where corruption is rampant.
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October 21st, 2007 at 3:42 pmTuan said
As someone who was born and raised here in the US. I would say Christianity is losing some ground in the US. Islam is slowly becoming the second largest faith in the USA with a third of it being converts (or reverts).
“Asyhadu an la ila ha illalah waasyhadu anna Muhammadar rasulullah.” (I witness there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prohet)
Hurray! One Muslim more. This brings the total number of believers to 1.327.681.574 *.
* dead Muslims and apostates included -
lucia Says:
April 25th, 2008 at 11:11 amUntil Indonesia is peacefully and successfully ruled by a non-Muslim person and not dominated by Muslim parliament, all this tolerance talk is absolutely meaningless.
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