Mixed Religion Marriages

Sep 3rd, 2007, in IM Posts, by

Four ways you can possibly get around the law against mixed-religion marriages.

Some time ago Law Professor Wahyono Darmabrata of Universitas Indonesia (UI), Depok, suggested four ways those of mixed faiths could marry, they being:

  • by court order
  • marrying according to each partner's religion
  • submitting to your partner's religion for marriage purposes, but without converting
  • marrying overseas

The court order method is rare and was last done by one Andi Vonny Gani in 1989, however the revised law on Citizen Administration would make it more possible.

The second option, having two ceremonies, one according to the man's religion and the other according to the woman's, depends on a certain interpretation of a clause in the 1974 Marriage Act, however the problem of which marriage is then to be recognised by the state has Professor Wahyono stumped.

The third option is the most common, and was famously done by celebrity couple Deddy Corbuzier and Kalina in 2005. Deddy, who is Catholic, married Kalina, a Muslim, according to her faith, but did not convert to Islam. Their marriage was conducted by a celebrant from Yayasan Paramadina, which is led by Nurcholish Madjid.

Deddy Corbuzier and Kalina
Deddy Corbuzier and Kalina.

In the case of Islam this method requires finding a Muslim marriage celebrant who is willing to officiate. Orthodox interpretations of Islam forbid the practice of a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. (In the reverse case observers note that the Quran seems to permit a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman, who maintains her faith thereafter, as was done by one of Muhammad bin Abdullah's wives, Mary the Copt.)

Those wishing to follow this method, in the case where the bride-to-be is Muslim and the groom is not, had best seek a celebrant from liberal Muslim organisations such as the Wahid Institute, the Indonesian Conference on Religion and Peace (ICRP), as well as Paramadina. Having the marriage recognised by the state afterwards is a separate issue.

Former minister of religion, Quraish Shihab, is of the opinion that the matter should be of no concern to the state, but rather be left up to each religion.

Sudhar Indopa, of the Jakarta branch of the Civil Registry office, says the state is not unwilling to accommodate such mixed marriages, but defers to authorities on religion on whether the practice is acceptable.

If religious authorities do not bless the marriage then the state cannot recognise it.

Farida Prihatini of the Islamic Law department at UI however says that the Clerics' Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), has made mixed-religion marriages haram, or forbidden, and in principle other religions, besides Islam, do not allow them either.

It's unacceptable, there is no [valid] marriage, it's living in sin.

Father Andang Binawan says the Catholic church has no problem with mixed-religion marriages, provided the non-Catholic partner is willing to submit to the church's marriage laws, and commits to monogamy and life-long partnership, but need not convert to Catholicism, regardless of whether the non-Catholic partner is male or female.

The final option, probably the simplest for those with enough money, is running off to Singapore or Australia, and is popular with celebrities, such as the Muslim Yuni Shara, who married the Protestant Henry Siahaan in Perth. Indonesian civil registry offices are bound by law to accept foreign marriage certificates as valid, however Farida Prihatini views this as unacceptable. [1]


52 Comments on “Mixed Religion Marriages”

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  1. avatar Sylvester says:
    September 3rd, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    Farida Prihatini of the Islamic Law department at UI however says that the Clerics’ Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), has made mixed-religion marriages haram, or forbidden, and in principle other religions, besides Islam, do not allow them either.

    It’s unacceptable, there is no [valid] marriage, it’s living in sin.

    This is a very dumb hypocrite statement. MUI is a poison to indo society. It has to be abolished. Those morons can only see what on the outside, but never understand the inside, the real meaning of faith.

    Father Andang Binawan says the Catholic church has no problem with mixed-religion marriages, provided the non-Catholic partner is willing to submit to the church’s marriage laws, and commits to monogamy and life-long partnership, but need not convert to Catholicism, regardless of whether the non-Catholic partner is male or female.

    Great, the main point is living in harmony and being faithful. Religion is more a label/culture, but the faith in the heart is the essence of life.

  2. avatar Sputjam says:
    September 3rd, 2007 at 8:37 pm

    A Muslim is a person who surrenders himself to the almighty, the koran is a guide to Muslims.
    The koran forbids idol worship but present day Muslims worship and serve stones in mecca.

    2:221 And do not marry the pagan women until they believe. And do not marry the underage girls. Believing women are better from the pagan women although they allure you. And do not marry the idol worshippers (men/women) (musyrikeen) until they believe – and the slaves (men/women) who believe are better from the idol worshipers – although they might allure you.

    By that meaning alone, a believer in God is forbidden to marry present day Muslims, nor are they to marry Christians who worship Jesus, nor Hindus, or Buddhists, nor any who serves clerics and priests.

    A true believer of God serves only God by doing good deeds of righteousness. God is after all the creator of the stones in mecca, created Jesus and popes and everything else that exist in this world.

    I am sure there are many out there who do not believe in religion but remains faithful to God.

  3. avatar Tomaculum says:
    September 3rd, 2007 at 11:58 pm

    It’s unacceptable, there is no [valid] marriage, it’s living in sin.

    I prefer to live in sin and go unsolicited to the hell than to accept such idiocy.
    I know many mixed pairs living happy and doing good works helping others. Which God would condemn such people?
    No, I think it is not God who cursed them but some idiots.

  4. avatar Dimp says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 5:36 am

    No, I think it is not God who cursed them but some idiots.

    And unfortunately some people think that these idiots are the representation of God… sad.

  5. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 6:45 am

    Assalamualaikum mas tomaculum,

    I know many mixed pairs living happy and doing good works helping others. Which God would condemn such people?

    The non-believer spouse that do not convert is dragging the partner into committing fitnah. See below, no GOD should be worshipped except Allah.

    Qur’an 59:22 “Allah is He, no other Ilah (God) may be worshiped

    They will be living in sin because they neglected their spirituality. This is where good Muslims come in and show them the right path. If they still do not accept the truth, then,

    Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah….”

    If we do nothing, we will be roasted in hell for not trying. See below,

    Qur’an:4:75 “What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah’s Cause?”

    Salam.

  6. avatar Dimp says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 7:57 am

    Speaking of which….

  7. avatar Sylvester says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 8:40 am

    Allah is not GOD. Allah is a moon god from paganic Arabs.
    Correct me if I am wrong.

  8. avatar Hassan says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:27 am

    Allah is a moon god? Well I guess if you ask your priests who knew nothing about Islam or look up those anti-Islam websites who obviously had slander and anti-Islam propaganda on their mind, then obviously that will be their answer. The truth? Far from it. I’ll correct you Sylvester, as you’re clearly mistaken.

    Open these links:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZRJctycXM
    http://godallah.com/moon_god.php
    http://www.mostmerciful.com/moongod.htm

    This single verse from The Quran will debunk the so-called ‘moon god’ myth:
    The Quran 41-37: “And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him.”

    If Allah SWT is a moon good, then He would tell Muslims to bow to the moon instead of prohibiting them, wouldn’t He? The moon is His creation, and NOT Allah SWT.

    Aluang Anak Bawang: You are clearly putting the verses out of context. You cut the verses and gave you’re own interpretations to them. The last time I checked, there’s no such thing as ‘Aluang’s Version of The Quran’.

  9. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:53 am

    By grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala.

    Assalamualaikum mas Hassan,

    Probably Sylvester meant the name ‘Allah’ was taken from a moon God, and then elevated to a status above all Gods. Here is an example.

    Everyone knows Rudolf the red nose reindeer. Now someone adopted the same name ‘Rudolf’ for his pet camel, and proclaim his camel ‘Rudolf’ to be above all bovines. “Prostrate not to the elks nor to the reindeers, but prostrate to Rudold who create them.”

    I may be wrong but this is how I read it.

    Re,

    Aluang Anak Bawang: You are clearly putting the verses out of context. You cut the verses and gave you’re own interpretations to them. The last time I checked, there’s no such thing as ‘Aluang’s Version of The Quran’.

    Alhumdullilah, I did the best I can. I am sure you agree with me that there should not be mixed religion marriages as these will weaken our faith. If I am wrong, inshallah, it was already predestinated 50,000 before the Big Bang. Allah seethe, heareth and knoweth all things.

    Salam.

  10. avatar Tomaculum says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 11:29 am

    Aluang, I know you’re just joking,
    but my question for them who believe in this
    The non-believer spouse that do not convert is dragging the partner into committing fitnah. See below, no GOD should be worshipped except Allah.

    Are we at one with the belief, that there is only one God?

    If this God really said this:

    Qur’an 59:22 “Allah is He, no other Ilah (God) may be worshiped
    or this
    Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah”¦.”

    then expectedly this questions would come up:
    “Isn’t this God a schizophrenic God with many personality which deny and fight each other?”
    or
    “Are we too stupid and too pigheaded to understand what he meant, who ever he is and where ever he has gone?”
    or
    “Is God only a product of our hyperbolical, anxious imagination?”

  11. avatar Hassan says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    Aluang Anak Bawang: Please do not use Allah’s name and then justify the wrong conception about Him within the same post (with the Rudolph analogy). And stop pretending to sound like a Muslim, we all knew who you are. Aren’t you suppose to prepare some ‘sesajen’ somewhere?

    Anyway, your Rudolph analogy was mistaken too.

    Wiki stated that:

    Most Arabic-speaking Christian and Jewish Communities (including the Yemenite Jews, several Mizraḥi communities and some Sephardim), as well as Eastern Christians living in Muslim countries (such as Orthodox Christians in Turkey), use “Allāh” as the proper noun for “God”. The name’s origin can be traced back to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh Allah is the standard Arabic word for “God” and is used by Arab Christians as well.”

    The word ‘Allah’ in the Indonesian language, means God, it is used alternatively with the word “Tuhan”.

    So, the Arabic name of Il, Al-Ilah or Allah is the Hebrew equivalent of El, an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh, and those names only refer to the One True God, not some moon good or anything else. The full wikipedia entry can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

    Interestingly, this fact was acknowledged and verified by an honest Christian website under the Christian Churches of God.

    The names for God in Hebrew were:
    Eloah (Singular form); and
    Elohim (plural form).
    El was a short form and could mean mighty as applied to a person.

    El had the same meaning. Both the Hebrew and the Chaldean appear in the Bible texts using these forms. The book of Ezra shows that the name Eloah is the title of the God of the Temple at Jerusalem. This name is singular and admits of no plurality. It refers to the one True God alone.

    In the eastern Aramaic the singular Elahh became Allah’ in the Arabic in this way. Elahh was referred to as Al Elahh or The God in the singular as it appears in the Bible text and the Chaldean. It then became Al’ilãh in the Arabic from the eastern Aramaic. The two hh sound being expressed as an aspirant with the final letter h of Allah. Thus the ancient Arabic form was Al’ilãh altering the double h sound. Islam under Muhammed carried on the name Allah because it was singular and it admits of no plurality.

    You can read the rest in this link: http://www.logon.org/english/s/p054.html

    Case closed.

    Tomaculum: There’s a saying “kalau mengikuti orang kesasar, ya pasti kita kesasar juga”. As I’ve said, Aluang is hardly an authoritative source of Islam, as he is a ‘kejawen’ Javanese himself.

    Quran 59:22 basically meant that there is nothing in this universe worthy of worship but Allah SWT. We should not worship anything or anyone (as in the case of the Pharaohs of Egypt), we should worship only Him.

    If you failed to grasp it, it’s because the style of the Arabic language is different than Indonesian or English, it’s more.. let’s just say poetic. And we must remember the possibility of translation bias, as a certain language sometimes fail to grasp the entire meaning of another language.

    Quran 2:193 the word ‘they’ in this verse meant the disbeliever. So it probably would sound like this to make it easier for you to understand: “Fight them (the disbeliever, pagans) until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah”¦.”

    No such thing as Gods fighting each other there, right?

    “Is God only a product of our hyperbolical, anxious imagination?”

    If I ask that to a Christian/Catholic, like you maybe, wouldn’t I be considered committing heresy? Respect others.

  12. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    By grace of Alah Subhana Wata’ala.

    Assalamualaikum mas tomaculum,

    You are indeed a rabble-rouser by dismissing my earnest postings as jokes.

    Tell that to the 3 school girls who was beheaded. Yes, it was an Islamic prank that 2 Korean Aids workers were murdered.

    Do you think it is a joke when Syafii Ma’arif said Islam is on a triumphant march across the globe by immigrantion and high birth rate? or Professor El Naggar said that Allah sent down tsunami and earthquake upon Achnese and Javanese for letting Christian celebrate Christmas? or Sheik Bin Baz, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa in 1966 ruling that the world is flat according to the Quran? or “thighing” was approved of by Islamic cleric Khomeini?

    These are some western educated and Islamic learned scholars who studied the holy Quran for their livelihood, and they can’t be wrong. How could you accuse me of ‘joking’ when I rehash what they said? You are listening too much to Indonesian pseudo-Muslims. The Islam in Indonesia is a weird mix of Hinduism, Buddhism and Abangan, but packaged under the brand name Islam.

    Salam.

  13. avatar Tomaculum says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    Hassan, nice to read your comments again.

    If I ask that to a Christian/Catholic, like you maybe, wouldn’t I be considered committing heresy? Respect others.

    As I’ve told you in one of my comments, I am an agnostic, forgot it?

    To your words:

    Quran 2:193 the word ‘they’ in this verse meant the disbeliever. So it probably would sound like this to make it easier for you to understand: “Fight them (the disbeliever, pagans) until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah”¦.”

    No such thing as Gods fighting each other there, right?

    Who is a disbeliever or pagans? People who beliefs in “other” God than Allah, isn’t it?
    Isn’t it the defintion of these words in Islam?
    Isn’t the words in Qur’an 2:193 a call to fight the follower of other beliefs? Why didn’t he use the word persuade for example?

    Quran 59:22 basically meant that there is nothing in this universe worthy of worship but Allah SWT. We should not worship anything or anyone (as in the case of the Pharaohs of Egypt), we should worship only Him.

    That is the view transported by Al Qur’an, what about the Christian God? Isn’t He the same One with yours only with a little bit other words or better: interpretations?

    Hassan, sorry, but such statements sounds for me like a call to fight each other, directly or not.

    This question is directed to all religions, and it is a question. Respect the opinion of others, OK?

    Is God only a product of our hyperbolical, anxious imagination?

    Aluang,

    Tell that to the 3 school girls who was beheaded. Yes, it was an Islamic prank that 2 Korean Aids workers were murdered.

    Let the girls and the workers in peace, OK?
    Still, for me are those people you listed clowns, dangerous clowns. Not Islam is a joke, but those people babble jokes one after another.
    And … sorry … your sarcastic subtleness develops to jokes cause it is so easy to figure out. :)

  14. avatar Sputjam says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:02 pm

    Aluang anak bayang and hassan are followers of the pagan Arab religion who worship stones in mecca.
    During the time of Mohamed, the same pagan Arabs made fun of him and mocked him, calling him crazy etc., while the Arabs continued worshipping the stone.

    Aluang anak bayang and hassan says that God has to be worshipped, but the koran says otherwise.
    a) the koran did not call for mankind to participate in any religion or to perform religious rituals.
    b) the koran did not mention how god is to be worshipped.
    c) The koran in fact forbids idol worshipping, which the Muslim practise, by worshipping their stones in mecca. In fact the majority of mankind perform some kind of idol worship, either to statues, men (Jesus, stalin, Kim Il sung, clerics), objects like lucky charms etc.
    d) the koran warns mankind against clerics and priests, but present day Muslims ignore the advice.
    e)All previous prophets did not profit financially from dispersing God’s messages, but present day Muslims are forced to pay religious tax in the form of zakat to the clerics.
    g) messages in the koran reminded mankind repeatedly that for the faithful, we will be judged by our deeds alone. Not the number of times we worship, nor the number of pious children we have.

    Some koranic translations are incorrectly done in order to promote an Arab religion. So beware of the dejected (iblis).

  15. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 11:07 pm

    Hassan said

    If I ask that to a Christian/Catholic, like you maybe, wouldn’t I be considered committing heresy? Respect others.

    Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir? And don’t make me repeat the verses because they have already been mentioned hundreds of times in this forum.

    Aluang said

    Tell that to the 3 school girls who was beheaded. Yes, it was an Islamic prank that 2 Korean Aids workers were murdered.

    Bearing this in mind and if we have to respect each and every belief does it mean we are also not allowed to criticize the ancient meso-American religions (Maya, Aztec, Toltec) that practiced barbaric human sacrifice by the tens of thousands?

  16. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 11:37 pm

    Re,

    “kalau mengikuti orang kesasar, ya pasti kita kesasar juga” As I’ve said, Aluang is hardly an authoritative source of Islam, as he is a ‘kejawen’ Javanese himself.

    You are no better than I am. At least I am requoting from learned Islamic scholars.

    and,

    Still, for me are those people you listed clowns, dangerous clowns. Not Islam is a joke, but those people babble jokes one after another.

    Hell NO! These people studied the holy Quran all their lives, and they are spot on. I will have a safer bet on them with correct interpretations rather than Sputjamdiyah’s or prophet Hassan’s (pbuh) version.

    Salam.

  17. avatar Sputjam says:
    September 5th, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    Aluang Anak Bayang Says:

    Hell NO! These people studied the holy Quran all their lives, and they are spot on. I will have a safer bet on them with correct interpretations rather than Sputjamdiyah’s or prophet Hassan’s (pbuh) version

    Your obligation is to study the koran yourself. Read! Read in the name of your Lord.

    The koran has warnings concerning preist and clerics. You may ignore that warning at your own peril. You want these religious scholars to decide your fate, so be it.

  18. avatar Ihaknt says:
    September 5th, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Guys, maybe Hassan = Aluang?? He disappeared and Aluang ‘appeared’.

  19. avatar Odinius says:
    September 6th, 2007 at 11:07 pm

    Oh MUI when will you finally become SECURE in your faith? Mixed marriages don’t mean people turn away from a religion, look at the USA, more mixed marriages than anywhere else in the world, yet it has grown more Christian in the past few decades, that people should be able to marry whoever they want goes without saying.

  20. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    September 7th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    Sputjam said

    Your obligation is to study the koran yourself. Read! Read in the name of your Lord.

    Do it.
    There are 3 possible outcomes:
    “¢ You submit and become indoctrinated.
    “¢ You wonder whether it is a joke.
    “¢ You are disgusted.

  21. avatar Odinius says:
    September 7th, 2007 at 10:17 pm

    Um or a fourth possibility, you fnd some of it quite good and other parts less so.

  22. avatar Hassan says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 11:36 am

    dewaratugedeanom:

    Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir?

    How about if all of the 160 millions or so Muslims in Indonesia return the favor, and stop respecting Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity? Better yet, how about if all of the major religions in Indonesia stop respecting each other, even hating each other? Is that what you want? Do you want to spread hatred between our religions?

    The thing is, it’s not about what you think about the teachings of other religions. Who are we to judge the truth about other people’s faith? The key word is TOLERANCE.

  23. avatar Hassan says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 11:52 am

    tomaculum:

    Who is a disbeliever or pagans? People who beliefs in “other” God than Allah, isn’t it?

    Not quite. By Islamic definitions pagans are polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah (God), those who worship others along with Allah, and also those who set up rivals with (or partners to) Allah.

    Now followers of other religions that believed in the Oneness of God are not considered pagans, and since the followers of every religion in Indonesia believed in “Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa” means none of us (if we actually believed in the Oneness of God as the statement clearly dictates) can be considered as pagans.

    Isn’t the words in Qur’an 2:193 a call to fight the follower of other beliefs?

    No. It’s a call for the early Muslims of Muhammad’s (pbuh) time to take up arms against their pagan Arab oppressors. Transcripts from Tafsir Ibn Kathir (a prominent Islamic scholar whose Quranic interpretation is widely used):

    He said, “That we did during the time of Allah’s Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.

    The conclusion, to find out the true meaning of Quranic verses we must place them on their proper contexts. We can’t just read partially and then say, ‘I presume that’s what it meant’.

    BTW tom, I’m curious, what led you into being an atheist? What led you to believe that the universe was created by a set of (continuous) random occurrences (although statistically, you will have a much better chance to stack up a huge amount of sand in a plot of land and find a sand made empire state sized building in that place the next day, complete with sand made running elevators, air conditioners, cars in the parking lot, etc.)? As the universe is made up of atoms bunching up together to form all things, much like the sand in my analogy.

    Honestly, I’m not trying to cynically question your reasoning tom, I’m just trying to have an insight on your ‘faith’.

  24. avatar Hassan says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    Aluang Anak Bawang:

    You are no better than I am.

    At least I’m not advocating Islam under false pretenses like you, Aluang. Acting as if you’re promoting Islam while in fact your intentions was to defame the religion.

    ihaknt: maybe ihaknt = dimp?? they began posting at about the same time, started to use acronyms to shorten their long nicknames at about the same time, and now dimp disappeared and ihaknt ‘appeared’. But I think Patung banned one person from posting comments using different names a long time ago.

  25. avatar Pakmantri says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    Hassan Says:

    Aluang Anak Bawang: You are clearly putting the verses out of context. You cut the verses and gave you’re own interpretations to them. The last time I checked, there’s no such thing as ‘Aluang’s Version of The Quran’.

    Isn’t that what most of the clerics, imam, ulama or mullah do? The same goes to the priests or leaders of other religions with the verses from their “good books”. Whatever best to serve their purposes is the right one.

  26. avatar Tomaculum says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    BTW tom, I’m curious, what led you into being an atheist?

    Again, Hassan, I am an agnostic, I am non-religious but not atheist. The question about which or what kind of God I do not deny, is a very personal matter I don’t like to expatiate here in this forum.
    I’m curious, that you didn’t get what I meant.
    If you or other believe that God exists in your way of believing with names you’ve given, then it is your personal business.
    For me are the personification of the higher and maybe transcendent entity and the becoming of the universe with the for-us-so-important-grain-of-sand-we-named-earth complex matters we won’t understand completely and not so easy like creating the world in 7 days.
    The problem is if one (surely not you :) ) begins to “bother” others with different faith.

  27. avatar Hassan says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    Only Christianity tells us that the world was created in 7 days (and God had to rest after 6 days of hard work), but I guess that’s not the entire point.

  28. avatar Ihaknt says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    Hahah Hassan nice try. Patung shortened our names not us. Dimp even asked me why when it happened. I wouldnt change my name and I made clear about it ages ago. Dimp is a friend of mine, we live in the city and we sometimes discuss this forum on our personal email and sometimes even have different views on things, like I dont give a sh*t bout God, while he is quite a religious person. And yet we are good friends. We both dont understand how some people have no common sense, blinded by religions, or use their brain to think, not just limited in this site but also in many occasions.
    Obviously you were offended that I took you to the same level as Aluang. Woohoo, I pi**ed you off…AGAIN. But Dimp is a good top bloke so I am ok if I ‘am’ him. Hi Dimp!! Cheers.

  29. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    Hassan said

    How about if all of the 160 millions or so Muslims in Indonesia return the favor, and stop respecting Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity? Better yet, how about if all of the major religions in Indonesia stop respecting each other, even hating each other? Is that what you want? Do you want to spread hatred between our religions?

    How does this answer the question I asked?

    Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir?

    What I understand from your answer is that it is just a covered threat about a 160 million or so Muslims outnumbering the other faiths. I assure you that I’m not impressed by numbers. For me quality comes first.
    The core of my question however you did not touch. The hatred comes from Islam in the first place, not from the other faiths. I never heard or saw a Christian, Hindu or Buddhist blowing himself up shouting Allahu Akbar.

  30. avatar Tomaculum says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    Only Christianity tells us that the world was created in 7 days (and God had to rest after 6 days of hard work), but I guess that’s not the entire point.

    No, that’s not the entire point, the entire point is that these discussions about religions, Gods, Allahs etc, etc are becoming boring, because there is not a pinch of change in our credo and insistency, not a micrometer of approach I can see here in this forum or anywhere else.
    Every one persists that his belief, his God is the real one.
    And at the end … we’ll kill us each other, we will burn our hoses of worship, we will rape our sisters and mothers and daughters.
    And then we will start again to discuss.

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