Heretic Outreach

Jul 3rd, 2007, in IM Posts, by

The government reaches out to heretics.

The head of the Bengkulu office of the Department of Religion (Depag), Mukhtaridi Baidjuri, has invited any members of non-orthodox Islamic groups to give up their strange beliefs and return to the fold of government approved Islam.

We are inviting them to return to the correct teachings, ie., those based on the Quran and hadiths of Muhammad.

He said there were many followers of heretical groups such as Ahmadiyah in Bengkulu and they often tried to spread their beliefs to others. In one village alone of North Bengkulu, called Sungai Hitam, there were 150 Ahmadiyah members, he worried. The Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) had already ruled that Ahmadiyah was unacceptable, he said, because Ahmadiyah recognised a prophet after Muhammad, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Pakistan, whereas in true Islam God had no more need of prophets after Muhammad bin Abdullah.

The call had already been sent out:

We have already invited them to return to true Islam, but the problem is that whether they choose to listen to us or not is up to them.

He said no force could be used to sway them, only urging and asking. However if they insisted on keeping to their false beliefs they must not attempt to proselytize to others, because this could lead to things happening that no-one wanted, he said.


168 Comments on “Heretic Outreach”

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  1. avatar Dimp says:
    July 3rd, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    The Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) had already ruled that Ahmadiyah was unacceptable

    Unacceptable to who? To MUI? To the government? Since when does MUI rule Indonesia? Or unacceptable to Allah? I never heard that MUI represents Allah.

  2. avatar Denny Crane says:
    July 3rd, 2007 at 1:34 pm

    Lock and Load for MUI,

    First, MUI fatwa implies no legal consequence, hence if a Muslim disagrees, he can act otherwise.

    Second, Islam recognize the institution of Ulema to help the followers in digesting an issue (ijtihad).

    Third, I would suggest that the article should also elaborate on the general differences between Ahmadiyah and MUI including both teaching and practice so that most readers would get a holistic perspective of the case. My first observation would be that Ahmadiyah not only deviate from the teaching of Islam but also has the potential to create social unrests.

    Cheers

  3. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    July 3rd, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    The head of the Bengkulu office of the Department of Religion (Depag), Mukhtaridi Baidjuri, has invited any members of non-orthodox Islamic groups to give up their strange beliefs and return to the fold of government approved Islam.

    We are inviting them to return to the correct teachings, ie., those based on the Quran and hadiths of Muhammad.

    Hadiths are part and parcel of real Islam. Where is dear strange believer Mas Khafi? And Sputjam?

  4. avatar Sputjam says:
    July 4th, 2007 at 7:32 am

    So it is the department of religion and not God who now decides which one holds true to faith.
    It is the ulamas and not God who issues fatwas.
    God’s guidelines in the koran is complete.
    There is not need for hadiths and sunahs.
    No need for preachers and religious scholars.
    Only the very few will understand.

  5. avatar Dimp says:
    July 4th, 2007 at 7:36 am

    Hi Sputjam,

    It is the ulamas and not God who issues fatwas.

    In case you haven’t notice, in Indonesia, ulamas = God.

  6. avatar Raden says:
    July 4th, 2007 at 9:09 am

    See, if the outsiders read these kind of articles, it is disturbing & can not blame on those who opted as free thinkers. Not all of individuals like the above gentlemen who have the ability to think deeper, most of us are layman who quickly got tired to think about abstract topics especially interpret correctly what are the God’s messages? No matter what are your belief, it doesn’t matter either correct or incorrect belief, as long as you do not start putting your belief’s measurements into others (who may not accept it) then it is okay & there will be no harm to the peace society, that is truly democracy! In Indonesia’ current reality there is no democracy for Indonesian who are not Muslim believers.

  7. avatar sm4lange says:
    July 6th, 2007 at 9:25 am

    At least in Indonesia, Ahmadiyah’s movement is not restricted as in countries such as Brunei, Malaysia and Singapore. The curtailment of their movement in these countries was necessary as Ahmadiyah was spreading a belief that is contradictory to Islam and the method used by Ahmadiyah to spread their faith will cause tension within a certain community. The government of Indonesia, for the sake of community harmony should restrict their movement. On the issue of democracy in Indonesia, never never say that Indonesia is not a democratic nation, look within ASEAN, how many countries are democratic. ASEAN countries with the exception of Indonesia, practice ‘control democracy’ hence Indonesians should not abuse their democratic system but have it refine as they go along.

  8. avatar Raden says:
    July 6th, 2007 at 10:44 am

    Since you are Muslim, that’s why you always in bias side thinking this is the real democracy just because Ahmadiah is free to practice their doctrine. See if you are a Christian then I would like to know your opinion about Indonesia’s current democracy? See how powerless is our law enforcement function when it comes witnessing incidents when the terrorist ransacking our ‘illegal churches’? Barbaric democracy indeed

  9. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 6th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    Raden,

    If Indonesia, the world democracy Rank 73 you called a barbaric democracy. I would like to hear what you will give the name for democracy in the Singapore Rank 83, Malaysia Rank 91 and Thailand Rank 95.

    We majority already gave too much to the minority but you still think it isn’t enough yet.

    Regard,
    Amungme Son

  10. avatar sm4lange says:
    July 6th, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Guys, lets not get emotional here, please. To Raden – yes, I am a Muslim but was a Christian once and I became a Muslim not on the account of others but it is what I believe in. When using the word, bias, you have to be very careful because it is very subjective. My family (ortu dan saudara2 kandung) are Christians and yet we respect each other. I do have friends of other religions and we all get on well. As for the Christian religion, I am well versed in it but I do not like to discuss religion even amongst my family members and friends and neither they do too. Now, on the issue of Ahmadiyah, yes, they can practice freely as they want but do you really know how they preach to others? I have come across Ahmadiyah “Muslims” preaching their religion whereby they insult other Muslims and how Islam is being practiced by us. I would rather face preachers of Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons because they don’t hurl insults. Just for you information, I will never debate about religion but rather I will back out and let them know, that religion belongs to the individual and cannot be forced down the throat.
    Cukurungan—I am sorry to say, I do not know about this democracy ranking that you mentioned but lets us not discuss about majority or minority here.
    A word though, let us not get emotional in this forum but discuss issues in a much friendly tone could be better for us…hope that both of you do agree to what I propose. I wonder, are you both Indonesians or Auslanders.

  11. avatar Boni says:
    July 7th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    Indonesia is rank in 73 and you have a nerve to say that you already gave too much to minority? Please…tsk..tsk..tsk…

    that is really sad the fact that you think you gave too much to minority. The majority shouldn’t hold and decide what to give to minority and dear God, what makes you think you have the right to do so anyway? Because you are majority? heh! That is the dumbest opinion ever. What you basically saying is that,”look I’m a majority therefore, I’m your God.”

    Indonesia is on the road to democracy but has not yet achieve the ideal democracy. Rank 73 is not something you can be proud of Cukurungan. That still not good enough. No wonder the country is so backward in religious freedom and human rights. Why? Apparently the so called “large majority” headed by people like Cukurungan are proud that we are rank in 73. tsk…tsk..tsk…sad..sad…sad…

  12. avatar Raden says:
    July 8th, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    Guys, I believe the real Cukurungan is a well doing Muslim guys in this country. Sadly the facts that even some of the majority well being Muslim (not all though) are somewhat have the bully attitude with a little inward looking views are disturbing facts. I have my real friend who had received ‘uang golden hand-shake pesangon’ from his USA employer multinational company after his 32 years in service in the same company since he graduated which is enough to pamper him to the rest of his live. He retired about 3 months before the 11 July WTC planes crashed in NY. On the date we received the NY terrorist news, he said allahu akbar to his close friends including me & condemn Amerika that they deserved it ! Believe it or not, there are many hypocrite in Indonesia even in the elite & well educated rank people. And other similar real cases. This guy had enjoyed working with the USA company in 32 years and yet condemning USA when it came the topic of Osama bin Laden. He took salary from the USA company to feed his family for 32 years but yet condemning them, what a sick person, after this incident I stay away from him, perhaps forever because he had shown his true color. This kind of psycho persons are capable of being one of Osama’s man for executing terrorism. A man who live without respect & a hypocrite ! If you don’t like America, then you should not work for any American company period !

    With the recent terror in the UK airport, that initiated by a few well being Indian who hold degre in medical doctors who came from rich Indian family, that are very scary terrorism case. There are bigger problems than we thoughts which do not explain that lack of education & poor society are the main culprit of terrorism spread

  13. avatar sm4lange says:
    July 8th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    The issue of which ethnic is the majority never pop-up amongst the Javanese people and this is based on my personal experience hence to say that what Cukurungan feels is very wrong. Western democracy for Indonesia can be adopted but has got to be modified as Indonesia consists of various ethnic groupings and this is what Singapore has done where it ensures that every ethnic is represented in Parliament. Democracy in Indonesia is at its infancy hence give it sometime. As for the issue of Osama Laden, let it be known that sensible Muslims do not show support as he has given Islam a bad name already but do not forget that it was the US that cultured, armed, trained and financed Osama Laden in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. What did go wrong and made Osama back fired against his pay master, the US.

  14. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 8th, 2007 at 5:18 pm

    Raden,

    Are you a real dumb guy or pretend to becomes the dumb one, don’t tell me US companies paying bullsh*tt golden shake to your friend. We know exactly every penies being paid to us and to your friend will be re-imbused to BPMIGAS under operating costs. YES myself is also US companies employers but they paid us with our GOVERNMENT MONEY not US citizens taxes. Is that clear sir? We are selling our expertise not selling our beliefs like you. We have given too much to minority that even China mainland couldn’t afford give it to you.

    If you don’t like with our way manage this country that is up to you. We don’t need you and you can go wherever you like and the myths Indonesia economy will be crippled without Chinese has been busted already.

    Regard,
    Amungme Son

  15. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    July 8th, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    Raden, your suggestions and views are bothersome. Telling us how to run our country and how we should behave are not well received. If you are born in Indonesia, you should learn from our culture, we do not tell other how to run their lives. Something tells me you are Singaporean.

  16. avatar Boni says:
    July 8th, 2007 at 10:37 pm

    I think you’re the one that should go somewhere else Cukurungan. The Indonesians that I know are tolerant and live in harmony with people from different ethnic, nationality, religion, etc.

    Frankly, I don’t know what you’re talking about “we have given too much to minority…blah..blah..blah..bullsh*t.” Indonesia is not your country, it does not belong to a single ethnic majority or one religion majority. It belongs to everyone who are born on this land.

    You can’t go around call for example “Hey you Chinese go somewhere else.” You don’t have a single right, not even one, and there is no constitution in this country that allow you to do so. Chinese, India, Afrikan, Arabs and other minor ethnics are here to stay. period. When I first joined this forum months back, I thought you’re one intelligent person as I read more about your posting, you just one sad dumb racist.

    Seriously, this is merely a suggestion and I think you should go somewhere else. You just don’t belong in our society. The god that you praised must be a very cruel god that does not believe living in harmony and tolerant. You know what Cukurungan, I am a Chinese and I’m not afraid to say it. Your type of people hate us so much you had to burn our property in May 1998 and look at us. We still here and again we are here to stay.

  17. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    July 8th, 2007 at 11:43 pm

    When I first joined this forum months back, I thought you’re one intelligent person as I read more about your posting, you just one sad dumb racist.

    LOL you ain’t intelligent yourself.

    When I first joined, the first thing I noticed were unintelligent comments coming from this brown brother. And he is not even Indonesian, he is an Arab-wannabe.

  18. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 9th, 2007 at 7:21 am

    Boni,

    Let checked again from the beginning of this discussion who was starting made a sour comments what I done just to response those comments. Of course, every one has rights to live anywhere they’re like and I wasn’t asking chinese people to go from this country but the bad mouth people only.

    I let you know that my house is sharing wall with two neighbors chinese and when our families out of the towns we always give the key of my homes to the neighbors chinese from Medan. Myself and my families are fully live in harmony with anyone include Chinese but I won’t let a bad mouth comments without clear response.

    Regard,
    Amungme Son

  19. avatar Raden says:
    July 9th, 2007 at 10:15 am

    Cuk, first clarification, it is not only USA Oil & Gas companies are operating in our country, there are USA MNCs in banking, IT, insurance, industrial manufacturing, automotive, energy, telco industry, etc …
    Second, the real story of my friend were working in the IT industry which had nothing to do with BP Migas cost recovery system. You made totally wrong pre-judgement, ha ha ha …., another inward looking attitude were shown by you.

    Please wake-up Cuk, you have very silo views in your life & that could be the source of danger, the US Companies in Indo are not always neccessarily = Unocal, Chevron, Texaco, Exxon, Caltex, etc who operate under cost-recovery under BP Migas. In anyway, eventhough your salary are eventually & ‘partially’ (it coould be 80:20 up to 51:49 splits as according to pre negotiated package) shared recovery from Indonesian money of BP Migas cost recovery but some are from your USA employer. You were hired there as a US employee expat, they have theirown system and the decision of hiring based on interview with you, you were given chance there already as if their brothers working together in one office, you learn their petroleum engineering methods-techniques that is the top notch in this industry without them you are just a 3rd world man in oil & gas discipine (pls be honest Cuk), the hiring, the HR policy & system are US based when you are recruited by a USA Company. Since you work under them with their management style, you owed to them Cuk because the money you spent for feeding your Muslim family were justified by the American system. Please Cuk do not pretend to live in a hypocrite, you don’t like America then you should go back to Arab & selll your expertise there, the Aramco is equally big but if they need you Cuk, no guarantee though. I hope you do not take it personally, I want to educate you so that you will NOT feel regret till the end of your live. You do not like Amerika then don’t visit America’s Land, do not pay your holiday there, do not draw salary from any American companies, do not learn any USA technology. You walk the talk & be a respectful human being period.
    Please show an itegrity & honest life to respect your ideology with consistent view

  20. avatar Raden says:
    July 9th, 2007 at 10:23 am

    sorry have not finish my sentence,
    …. otherwise it is a terrorist’s behaviour traits, terrorist suka bekerja sebagai musuh dalam selimut. Day and night you work in a USA company as if you are a loyal employee but in any chance you can be a potential catasthrope trouble makers …. this is dangerous, especially you are working in oil & gas company !

    To Boni, thanks for your view, I agree with you that no one whatever his race is, eventhough they are one of the majority Javanese Muslim have the right to ask any minorities race to stay out from Indonesia. Btw The minorities definition in Indonesia inclusive but not limited to the Batak Christian, Ambon Christian, Chinese Budha, Balinese Hindu, Ambonese Christian, etc ….

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 12th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    Raden,
    Sorry, I didn’t believe your friend story because it is not usual people work at IT industry locked in one companies until 32 years except an idiot man and the other facts the golden shake for retired employ is a tradition only applicable in the super rich companies like Exxon or Freeport and not applicable in IT companies. Therefore your friend story is likely fabricated one and if not who care.

    Why you still talked a lie even the dumb people in the oil industry understand that the Split 80:20 is calculated after all operating production cost or the oil lifting cost fully recovered by BP migas and therefore it is no-secret that some oil companies tried to hide any cost under those operating cost. Some of those tactics has been un-covered by BPmigas as recently occurred a big oil US companies asked budget $20 million cost for drilling one well while JOB Pertamina-Petrochina only asked $4 million drilling the same depths and almost indentic geological structures.

    I interviewed by their HRD as an engineer and not as preacher or priest and I haven’t signed any agreement with them to worship or support US policy.

    I let you know that the moslem has never owe anything to US companies or to anyone, we made our relationship with them based on their offering and both parties agreement. If they don’t want moslem to becomes theirs employ hence they don’t need to do business in the moslem country. Is that clear sir?

    We moslem owe to God only and He is the ultimate owner of every thing include Universe and anything in it.

    You can say anything about us but we don’t care. BTW can you tell me how many people already followed your recommendations to leave Indonesia I guess not many because no one really want to leave this God blessed country.

  22. avatar Raden says:
    July 13th, 2007 at 7:47 am

    Thank-you Cuk for unveiling your narrow minded paradigm to the rest of audience,

    We moslem owe to God only and He is the ultimate owner of every thing include Universe and anything in it.

    The above statement is a scary & disturbing statement, similar to a Muslim terrorist attitude. The more you talk, the more people will learn about how disturbing is our Muslim society, you are really confusing other people.

    You can say anything about us but we don’t care. BTW can you tell me how many people already followed your recommendations to leave Indonesia I guess not many because no one really want to leave this God blessed country.

    And the above statements, you may check with Immigration first, they may not leak the data though, even our president SBY have a condo next to Sentosa island Sgp for his son who scholing in NTU, so nice, ha ha ha ….. and all other pejabat like Habibie, the freak minded Prabowo, plust tons of other BUMN CEO have properties outside Indo ? siap leaving at any time, ha ha ha … What is the FACT and FICTION ? it is no secret buddy !

    The 80:20 split maybe no longer a position that BP Migas can hold, pls check the latest issue, ENI renegotiate 51:49 in Aceh due to Syariah Law insurgency & deeper & depleting reserve. Without all USA and European MNC oil companies, we can only produce MUD VOLCANO like in Porong, ha ha ha ha …. so you preach the theory of blessed gemah ripah loh jinawi of Indo ? hua ha ha … it is just stone & hydrocarbon potential deposit buddy, it will not turn into money like low hanging fruits, you need technology, methods, discipline, know how, management which you denied it that you do not owe to them ?

    VERY SCARY, NAROOW MINDED & NAIF TERRORISM STATEMENT

  23. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 13th, 2007 at 10:33 am

    Raden,

    Welcome Sir, at least I was trying to disclose all terms and condition whoever want to deal with me.
    In this real world’s we have to take a side but if there’s only available for two option either with Sattan or Terrorist hence I will gladly chose the same side with Terrorist.

    I just want to advice you that a lie isn’t good and harm yourself more than other.

    I don’t care other people opinion about living in Indonesia even my little brother is going to leave Indonesia and work in Europe but for myself hi hi hi living as a sleeping teroris in here is so nice and full of happiness while waiting for me 72 virgins on heaven.

  24. avatar Raden says:
    July 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    Okay Cuk, no hard feeling here,
    I get used to live with my Indonesian Muslim brothers, only things, the difference that when I was small and christmas tree was tall …. eh salah, I mean when I was small & living in mixed Muslim Christian school under $oeharto era, I hardly heard such inward looking paradigm from any of my Muslim brothers. Only just recently after $oeharto lengser and replaced by new radical reformasi, things had sadly changed, there are more and more people like your ideology, a bit of too much.

    I respect your ideology, my wisdom advise, as long as you keep it for yourself & don’t put your yardstick measurement to the rest audience, that is fine with me.

    Fyi, my story was true story. pls check also with people who get golden handshake from others co like Citibank, AT&T, AndersenConsulting, PWC, etc in the early 2000s. Afterall it was not only the oil & gas industry who made Indonesia prosper !

  25. avatar Raden says:
    July 14th, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    Cuk said:
    for myself hi hi hi living as a sleeping teroris in here is so nice and full of happiness while waiting for me 72 virgins on heaven.

    I said : if you can get 100 virgins now on earth why not Cuk ? because on heaven (if it does exist, some of us do not believe it exist !) your dick will be no longer there, not even 1 CM left-over, hu a ha ah ahaha….

  26. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Raden,

    I am only a dirty moslem or the lowest level of the moslem society therefore I has no rights to measure anyone include you but I am wondering with your claimed that minority has suffered more than majority however all my batak and ambon Christian friend never complained such thing Yes I got complained from my wives during lebaran why more the Christian visitors came to my house than my moslem brother.

    In your previous post you claimed yourself as a Batak Christian but reffering to the tone that you always sounded like a frightened chicken likely you’re only a fake batak because the real Batak Man is normally a strong man and never feel threatened.
    Etnic batak either they’re a Christian or moslem have been able to spread and penetrate around Archipelago and been able to fill important position either on government or business. I have some friend Batak who working in the mining and oil regulatory department but none of them complained about religion and minority discrimination like your concern but they are more interest about how to collect double envelope and double airticket from the drilling contractors and us and how to obtain receipt to be exchanged with the cast.

    In Indonesia every etnic has own specific default duties such as etnic padang running warung makan, orang bali bikin patung, orang batak jadi sopir bus and pengacara, orang madura jual sate &besi tua, orang sunda jadi artis and orang betawi and ambon jadi tukang parkir and preman, orang jawa jadi dalang and orang china jual toko kelontong dan bandar sabu. We are all hapy live in here if you don’t that your own business and who care with the sounds of the frightened chicken.

    You are pleased and welcomed to say anything as you wish as long as not deleted by moderator and I think this forums “cukup bagus” to buffer and vent your frustration…at least you can write “hu a ha ha” or laugh but everyone aware that this laugh is only the laugh in the bitterness.

    regards,
    Amungme Son

  27. avatar Shiva says:
    July 14th, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    We are inviting them to return to the correct teachings, ie., those based on the Quran and hadiths of Mohammad.

    Qur’an 3:131 “Fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith: and obey Allah and the Messenger.”

    He said there were many followers of heretical groups such as Ahmadiyah in Bengkulu and they often tried to spread their beliefs to others. In one village alone of North Bengkulu, called Sungai Hitam, there were 150 Ahmadiyah members, he worried.

    The Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) had already ruled that Ahmadiyah was unacceptable, he said, because Ahmadiyah recognised a prophet after Muhammad, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Pakistan, whereas in true Islam God had no more need of prophets after Muhammad bin Abdullah.

    The call had already been sent out:

    We have already invited them to return to true Islam, but the problem is that whether they choose to listen to us or not is up to them.

    Submit or else

    He said no force could be used to sway them, only urging and asking. However if they insisted on keeping to their false beliefs they must not attempt to proselytize to others, because this could lead to things happening that no-one wanted, he said.

    The above statement is Islamic double speach,and only a prelude to a repeat of when hundreds of Indonesian Muslim armed with sticks and stones, descended on the Ahmadiyah, a small peaceful Muslim group in Bogor, West Java,

    The attackers set fire to the women’s dormitory and knock- ed down a gate fronting the Ahmadiyah complex as its followers looked on helplessly. Some 300 policemen were on guard but failed to prevent the attack.

    The Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI islamofascists) threatens the existence of Indonesia as a state of Bhinneka Tunggal Ika which means unity in diversity when the official Council of Indonesian Ulamas issued 11 decrees which banned the Ahmadiyah, liberalism, pluralism and secularism as anti-Islam.

    Ahmadiyah, which previously existed peacefully with other Muslims, is considered deviant as its followers believe their founder, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, is the successor to the Prophet Muhammad.

    Christians have also been targeted. Churches in Indonesia are bombed torched or forcibly shut down by Muslims.

    The authorities have done little to prevent the attacks or take action against the Muslims, emboldening them further.

    The refined culture and respect for elders, teachers, intellectuals and foreigners “” characteristics which define the finest in Indonesian identity “” are also under siege from Islam

    Qur’an 4:91
    “You will find others who, while wishing to live in peace and being safe from you to gain the confidence of their people; thrown back to mischief headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace besides restraining their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear sanction and authority.”

    [So if you wish to live in peace, but are perceived as being mischievous (i.e., non-Muslim), Allah has given his Jihad warriors "a clear sanction and authority to seize and kill" you.]

    HUDAIBIYAH TREATY

    For those who understand Arab culture, Koranic law considered non-Muslim infidels worth converting to Islam or killing.

    If you have studied Islamic history, you will recognize the term: “al-Hudaibiya Treaty” and its meaning to Muslims.

    To Muslims “Hudaibiya” is a well-understood code-word which, in brief, means “Kiss the hand of your enemy until you can cut it off.”

    That is what Muhammed did to the Jews of the Quraish Tribe (alternate spelling: Koreish or Quraiza) who lived in Mecca. Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) is now playing the “Hudaibiya” card by offering a peace deal to the Ahmadiyah

    because this could lead to things happening that no-one wanted, he said

    So if the Ahmadiyah do not comply, then it is okey for the members of Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) to attack.

    Interesting to note that it is the Ahmadiyah who are being blamed for causing social unrest, while they are only practising the so called democracy of Indonesia.

    Christians have also been targeted. From April to September, 16 churches in Greater Jakarta were forcibly shut down by radicals. These churches are housed in shophouses and private homes.

    The authorities have done little to prevent the attacks or take action against the radicals, emboldening them further.

    In the seventh century, Muhammed, supposedly received the word of G-d that he was G-d’s last and only prophet. He initiated the third monotheistic religion, Islam (which means “submission”). He zealously propagated Islam to the desert tribes in the Arabian peninsula.

    To win over the Jews, he adopted many Jewish customs. But, the Jews in Mecca refused to accept any changes in Judaism.

    The Muslims and Muhammed negotiated with them to pray at the Ka’aba Stone, a black monolith in Mecca. Because they were only 1400 men, they offered a peace treaty, the “Hudaibiya Treaty”, suspending war for 10 years.

    Three years later, when Mohammed was stronger with a 10,000 man army, he set out to liberate Mecca and exterminated the Jewish tribe, selling the women they didn’t kidnap into slavery.

    Because the Jews rejected Muhammed’s Islam, there are many hostile denunciations of Jews in the Koran and bitter attacks upon the Jewish tradition, which have affected the beliefs of religious Muslims today.

    Muhammed established forever the right and even obligation of every Muslim to make agreements with non-Muslims when necessary (but only for 10 years as in the “Hudaibiya Treaty”) and then break these agreements when stronger so Islam could advance.

    Neither honor, nor ethics, nor obligations are allowed to stand in the way of establishing domination of Islam across the entire planet.

    Therefore, in keeping with Muhammed’s teachings,Majelis Ulama Indonesia will now play the card of “Hudaibiya”. This makes every Muslim a potential radical Fundamentalist, motivated by the strict laws of Islam.

    They believe their victims are infidels and, therefore, have no honor so to cheat them is acceptable as part of a war without end for Islam.

    As non-Muslims, they get no pity because the victim is something less than human. Islam divides the world into “Dar al Islam” (the world of Islam) and “Dar al Harb” (the world of infidels and, therefore, War). …

  28. avatar Shiva says:
    July 14th, 2007 at 11:32 pm

    Raden Says:

    In Indonesia’ current reality there is no democracy for Indonesian who are not Muslim believers.

    Reality Check.

    There is no democracy within Islam FULL STOP

  29. avatar Shiva says:
    July 15th, 2007 at 1:06 am

    Cuk said:
    for myself hi hi hi living as a sleeping teroris in here is so nice and full of happiness while waiting for me 72 virgins on heaven.

    And in another thread

    Achmad will be lying down for a while, doing what he does best.

    Raden Says:
    If you can get 100 virgins now on earth why not Cuk ? because on heaven (if it does exist, some of us do not believe it exist !) your dick will be no longer there, not even 1 CM left-over, hu a ha ah ahaha”¦.

    Well if Cuk would get off his back and do an honest days work instead of playing with his 1 CM and lamenting over the mythical 72 virgins, he would then enjoy life and be less hateful toward the white man and chinese, who work hard and are able to afford things which Cuk is so jealous of

    But Cuk is also, by his own admission a failure, because according to the Koran and Hadiths, Muslims are allowed to have up to four wives and an unlimited number of slave girls.

    But Cuk prefers to be lying down for a while, doing what he does best, while having fantasies of 72 virgins.

    Well Cuk lying down will not get you a Mercedes or a BMW which you begrudge the Chinese or White Man owning because of their hard work.

    From most of your comments on this forum you only expose your self as a bigotted Islamofascist, you are able to criticize and attempt to belittle other commentators here, but you cannot engage in any form of debate.

    By the way I am not posting here to make friends, I am posting here to expose the hypocracies of Islam.

    Raden Says:

    I respect your ideology, my wisdom advise, as long as you keep it for yourself & don’t put your yardstick measurement to the rest audience, that is fine with me.

    Unlike Raden I cannot respect an ideology that is based on Murder, Rape, Pedophilia, Disrespect for women, Fighting, Terrorism, War, Martyrs/Mercenaries, Torture, Thievery & Slavery

  30. avatar Cukurungan says:
    July 15th, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Shiva:

    But Cuk is also, by his own admission a failure, because according to the Koran and Hadiths, Muslims are allowed to have up to four wives and an unlimited number of slave girls.

    Cukurungan:

    Our prophet said whoever a moslem has a foods enough on the table for his family, has a goods health and live peacefully in his own community. He already given by God the world’s enjoyment so for me I already got all of those thing beside I have enough money to buy the new luxury car like mercy or BMW in cast and if necessary I can buy the liver of the poor Hindu india.

    Therefore I have plenty of times for lying down while waiting for me 72 virgin in heaven.

    For sure, I won’t take an india girls to becomes my slave because it seemed they don’t have enough water to do regular showers.

    Shiva:
    By the way I am not posting here to make friends, I am posting here to expose the hypocracies of Islam.

    Cukurungan:
    I always remember my ancestors message that an Indian poses more danger than a king cobra.

    Regard,
    Amungme Son.

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