Norway Shootings

Jul 25th, 2011, in Featured, IM Posts, by

Indonesian non reactions to the killing spree by Anders Behring Breivik in Norway.

There has been little Indonesian reaction to the Norwegian massacre - the most searched for items on Detik's search engine remain mostly old favourites:

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Apart from standard official statements; Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa said

We are very shocked and dismayed by the incidents in Norway. We condemn the shooting and bombing that have killed civilians. We express deep condolences to the victims, their families, and the Norwegian government

The apparent fact that the killer was on an "anti Muslim crusade" has seemed to excite little interest within the country.


216 Comments on “Norway Shootings”

  1. avatar stevo says:

    Ok here we go…

    He was not killing Muslims. He was killing people he saw as a threat to his cultural heritage and religion. I suggest most, victims, were European and raised in a Christian society.

    The victims were part of a socialist political movement he believed were a threat to his country and culture.

    He had expressed admiration for Bin Laden, because he also fought for his cultural and religious values.

    Maybe the Indonesians can identify with those aspects?

    Just a thought.

  2. avatar BrotherMouzone says:

    The more I read about this, the less faith I have in the future of this planet. What a truly horrible act of terrorism.

    It was interesting to see the news channels in the immediate aftermath doing handstands trying to explain why Al Qaeda would target Norway (it’s because they targeted a cleric, it’s because they reprinted some of the Mohammed cartoons, it’s because Norway is a rich country) before they realised that the perpetrator was a blond-haired Christian right wing fanatic rather than an brown-skinned Muslim one…

  3. avatar Oigal says:

    I find it more curious but not surprising the silence of our right wing conspiracy nuts. Although as BM says you could almost see various right wing commentators choking down on anti Muslim tirades as they awaited upon official confirmation. They are not unfortunately rare creatures, we even have one local piece of mud who regularly calls for people to be shot down in the street.

    Still just goes to prove a religious nutter is a religious nutter they come in all flavors each of them vile.

    Actually Stevo from what I have seen he was killing what he believed was the next generation of liberal leaders who were responsible for allowing Muslims in the country, he even called himself a templar Knight.

  4. avatar timdog says:

    I find it more curious but not surprising the silence of our right wing conspiracy nuts.

    No, no, Oigal; they’ve started – his facebook account was hacked after the event, to change him into a “Christian” and a “Conservative”, apparently. Various other pieces of “evidence” (such as his alleged admiration of bin Laden’s knack for publicity stunts and Obama’s knack for public speaking) are being bandied around to prove that he couldn’t possibly be considered “right wing”.

    Elsewhere, less unhinged commentators, having had 24 hours to get over their initial confusion, have decided that, as he was apparantly pissed off with Muslims and immigrants, then it might be possible, with a bit of sly nudging and winking, to imply that this is still all the fault of said Muslims and immigrants. The poor man had suffered such terrible provocation after all (of course, if you suggest to these same commentators a similar line on Palestinian suicide bombers, you’ll get an outburst of furious snarling, but never mind)…

  5. avatar Oigal says:

    to change him into a “Christian” and a “Conservative”,

    Ah yes, I see. Once again I have under estimated the descent into lunacy, it must be truly scary inside those kind of minds.

  6. avatar BrotherMouzone says:

    As usual, Charlie Brooker describes the early media response far better than I ever could;

    A blond Norwegian gunman doesn’t fit the traditional profile, they said, so maybe we’ll need to reassess . . . but let’s not forget that al-Qaida have been making efforts to actively recruit “native” extremists: white folk who don’t arouse suspicion. So it’s probably still the Muslims.

    Soon, the front page of Saturday’s Sun was rolling off the presses. “Al-Qaeda” Massacre: NORWAY’S 9/11 – the weasel quotes around the phrase “Al Qaeda” deemed sufficient to protect the paper from charges of jumping to conclusions.

    and,

    Some remained scarily defiant in the face of the new unfolding reality. On Saturday morning I saw a Fox News anchor tell former US diplomat John Bolton that Norwegian police were saying this appeared to be an Oklahoma-style attack, then ask him how that squared with his earlier assessment that al-Qaida were involved. He was sceptical. It was still too early to leap to conclusions, he said. We should wait for all the facts before rushing to judgment. In other words: assume it’s the Muslims until it starts to look like it isn’t – at which point, continue to assume it’s them anyway.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/24/charlie-brooker-norway-mass-killings

  7. avatar Lairedion says:

    The Sun? Enough said…..

  8. avatar berlian biru says:

    @ timdog

    “his facebook account was hacked after the event, to change him into a “Christian” and a “Conservative”, ”

    Any actual evidence that his account was hacked?

  9. avatar timdog says:

    I doubt it BB, unless you have some to hand. The claim seems to be spreading swiftly through the nether regions.
    In certain sectors of the “commentary” – and no, I don’t just mean the lunatic fringe – after a certain amount of initial squirming, they seem to have gotten over their initial discomfort and are ploughing ahead with the idea that this can still be all about Muslims and immigrants. As I mentioned before, these are generally the same people who start baying and snarling as soon as anyone suggests that Israeli policy might help “provoke” Palestinian suicide bombers, but hey! Everyone – left, right, straight down the middle – has their own double standards, their own causes that they choose to be vocal about, and others that they would brush aside as irrelevant aberrations.
    But the sheer crassness in play here really is nauseating. They hardly even blinked, let alone paused for thought.

  10. avatar Oigal says:

    Would seem that anyone who in a court of law suggests he is a latter day Templar Knight who must kill children to save us all from the Muslim hordes has pretty much placed himself in the dank clutches of the Christian nut fringe by deed if not member card.

    Of course, I would agree that he is not a conservative as I have always had issues with the more odious and repugant sections of the community perverting the word to cover their own xenophobic, hateful, pig ignorant and shallow view of the world.

    Recently read on one blog where some twit still managed to say that Islam and immigrants are still the greatest threat to Norway and Europe. Bizarre really, I can think of a number of families right now who would disagree with that. How about extreme, intolerant, xenophobic, racist loons of any particular tribe are the greatest threat. Still perhaps this will shine a light into some dank and dark corners of our own society by more rational people. For too long, the shoot em in the street or tar n feather brigade have had a pretty free ride riding the back of xenophobic fear.

  11. avatar Lomboksurfer says:

    Cukop sudah! Walter Cronkite must be spinning in his bloody grave.There is not one shread of evidence that this psychopaoth killer was anything but a lone gunman and bomber without any affiliation to any group or religion. Walter Cronkite the man known as “the most honest man in America” was a serious jounalist who reported only the facts as they occurred and did not engage in the wild specualations of the so called journalists who now us bring our daily news. Too many newspapers and tv news outlets have an ongoing agenda and try way too hard to either bolster or discredit as they “fit” the news to their particular point of view. Journalism was once an honorable profession but unfortunately “that’s the way it was”.

  12. avatar ET says:

    Lomboksurfer is right. This is no longer about a tragic event caused by a probably megalomatic lunatic. Even before the bodies of the victims were cold the tragedy had already been hijacked and degraded into a smear campaign by the media to foster their own agenda, reducing everything to left/right wing fingerpointing and speculating about the perpetrator’s possible affiliations with ideological and political opponents. This propagandistic below-the-belt mindset is perhaps as nauseating as the tragedy itself and a frightening prospect for the future of our society. I can imagine that similar processes were going on during the thirties of last century as preparation for the cataclysm that was to follow.

  13. avatar berlian biru says:

    The man is certainly linked to the lunatic fringe of the Euro Far Right, of that there can be little doubt but if anything can be derived from the mish-mash of ideas plagiarised from people as diverse as Usama Bin Laden, the Unabomber and Jeremy Clarkson (!) it seems little more than a rant against multiculturalism, immigration and the Left in general.

    I very much doubt that anything more can be drawn from it. His political ideology is as mixed up as the guy who shot Ronald Reagan, Charles Manson, the Unabomber or that bloke who shot the US senator earlier this year and who was wrongly characterised in the media as “right wing”. It seems to be beyond journalists to think in terms outside a black/white, right wing/left wing nexus. Furthermore to describe the attack as some form of “Christian” terrorism is simply absurd.

    Try to get your heads around the concept of lone nutters, probably on some form of mind altering substances who dream up paranoid conspiracy theories and work on them. It doesn’t actually always have to fit into neat political pigeon holes.

  14. avatar Oigal says:

    Try to get your heads around the concept of lone nutters, probably on some form of mind altering substances who dream up paranoid conspiracy theories and work on them. It doesn’t actually always have to fit into neat political pigeon holes.

    I think that was the point I was making

    How about extreme, intolerant, xenophobic, racist loons of any particular tribe are the greatest threat

    I just found it bizarre that after a moments silence some still are managing to somehow mold this into yet another condemnation of multi-culturalism, immigrants and refugees.
    I don’t believe he is any more an example of christian values that OBL was an example of Islamic values. Yet, as stated earlier you could see and hear the loony cons foaming, hissing and quivering at the mouth as they could sense another outage from those nasty Muslims.

    To see the level of xenophobic ignorance the loony cons have reduced a previously mostly rational community to, you need go no further than here and read the comments to the story.
    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/holy-war-over-offensive-muslim-signs/story-e6frea6u-1226086257537

  15. avatar Arie Brand says:

    The man is certainly linked to the lunatic fringe of the Euro Far Right, of that there can be little doubt

    Fringe? What else is he linked to?

    Breivik made in his 1500 page manifesto several appreciative references to Geert Wilders and his so-called Freedom Party (PVV). He seemed to be particularly enamored of Wilders’ film FITNA. Wilders has hastened to distance himself from the man and declared that he and his party believe in the ballot box and not in pistols and bombs.

    But many political commentators in Holland find this declaration a bit too glib. Job Cohen, the President of the Dutch Labor Party, whose acronym (PvdA) has occasionally been translated by Wilders as Party for the Arabs, reminded Wilders that words have implications.

    The most remarkable reaction came from the political columnist Bert Jan Spruyt, the founding member of the conservative Dutch think tank “Edmund Burke Foundation”. Spruyt was once asked by Wilders, before the coming about of his PVV, to organize a political party with him – an offer which Spruyt, after much hesitation, declined. He is, however, regarded as a kindred spirit. That is why his statement about the affair reached the Dutch television news this morning and one finds it elaborated on at this broadcasting corporation’s website.

    Spruyt goes further than even Cohen. He deems Wilders indirectly responsible for Breivik’s deed. Wilders’ message over the last few years has, according to Spruyt,

    created a certain atmosphere, a certain climate, a certain mood, an atmosphere of doom, a climate of it is five to twelve… (This has )led to people thinking in terms of solutions outside politics, non-political violent solutions. Wilders did not want that, Wilders has not called for that or instigated it, but it happened all the same. So he has to distance himself from that.

    This means, says Spruyt, that Wilders has to give up his vision of an Islamic invasion of Europe and has to participate in thinking about solutions, “about concrete policies to make of this failed multicultural society yet something beautiful”.

    Thinking with others and taking responsibility, that is, according to Spruyt, the price Wilders has to pay for the power he presently has in Dutch society and the influence he has beyond that.

  16. avatar berlian biru says:

    If you blame Wilders you’ll also have to blame the Unabomber, Melanie Phillips, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Usama Bin Laden and as I mentioned Sunday Times motoring correspondent Jeremy Clarkson.

    Stop trying to use this dreadful atrocity to shut down political opinions and viewpoints that you don’t happen to like. If it’s justifiable to pin the blame for this atrocity on Wilders’ speeches then Wilders is equally correct when he states the Koran is responsible for Islamic terrorism.

    You can’t have it both ways.

  17. avatar Lomboksurfer says:

    Berlian biru says “The man is certainly linked to the lunatic fringe of the Euro far right…”

    How is it possible that you know this to be true? What evidence have you accumulated and later cross referenced for accuracy? Have you passed your information to the Norweigen police?

  18. avatar Lomboksurfer says:

    Ï don’t believe he is any more an example of christian values than OBL was an example of Islamic values.”

    Though I can understand the point you are making I think it is a mistake because OBL considered himself to be a devout Muslim and was known to openly practice Islam and used passages from the Koran to justify his group’s (he had many followers) war against the West. As far as I know from the news accounts to date, Mr. Brevik was not affiliated with any Church and what passages from the New Testament were quoted by him to justify his taking of lives? As Christianity is shrinking in Europe, statistically, he is more likely to be an atheist nutter or would you say that is an example of another irresponsible statement on IM?

  19. avatar Arie Brand says:

    Stop trying to use this dreadful atrocity to shut down political opinions and viewpoints that you don’t happen to like

    BB, I reported the opinion of a Dutch conservative who is clearly not out to “shut down political opinions and viewpoints”. He is asking Wilders to acknowledge that he cannot wildly, like a political adolescent, make statements that, given the presence of other political adolescents, may have very undesirable consequences. It is not enough for Wilders to state now that he wants to operate via the ballot box after having suggested, in so many ways, that the normal political process no longer works in this case – that, in Spruyt’s words, “it is five to twelve”.

  20. avatar Oigal says:

    Breivik made in his 1500 page manifesto several appreciative references to Geert Wilders and his so-called Freedom Party (PVV). He seemed to be particularly enamored of Wilders’ film FITNA.

    Awww Come On Ari, He also referenced Ex-Australian Prime Minister and Treasurer John Howard and Peter Costello and a couple of noted Australian historians. Are you serious saying there is a link there in outlook or posture as well?

    This is not mine (obviously) but very interesting and pretty much sums up the problem with the looney cons..

    “There’s a problem here, and it has nothing to do with political correctness. It’s not even simply about public language. The problem is that the more we explain away acts of domestic terrorism as isolated cases of madness, the less capable we become of spotting it. Having realised the weekend’s attacks in Norway weren’t Islamist, we must do better than lazily assuming Breivik is just Norway’s answer to Martin Bryant.”

    “In other words, the problem lies in our taxonomies of violent acts. A crazed killer cannot be predicted, prevented or negotiated with. But extremist agendas can be brought into the spotlight for public scrutiny before they find inarticulate expression in violence. Making the wrong diagnosis could lead to dangerous inertia. Greenwald argued in Salon that the word “terrorism” has been manipulated to the extent that it “has no objective meaning and, at least in American political discourse, has come functionally to mean: violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes, no matter the cause or the target”.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2808618.htm

    The piece I have highlighted in bold includes in my opinion the less read shrills who continually call for ‘tar and feathering” or “shot them in the streets” and the mass media types of the Fox/Beck variety or even political types drawing red targets on posters of people in gun nut USA. (Can anyone seriously not call that grossly irresponsible at best)

    Of course, when is a terrorist a terrorist?..a single shoe bomber on a plane apparently is a Islamic terrorist and far right loony tune in Norway is just a psychopath. I don’t really have the answer myself but it certainly is not comfortable when you look at the most obvious discriminator.

  21. avatar Arie Brand says:

    Awww Come On Ari, He also referenced Ex-Australian Prime Minister and Treasurer John Howard and Peter Costello and a couple of noted Australian historians. Are you serious saying there is a link there in outlook or posture as well?

    Oigal, nobody is arguing that Wilders is exclusively responsible for the climate in which this noxious weed could grow. Having said that it seems obvious to me that Howard and Costello have less to do with it than this crusader from the Netherlands. Frankly, I am surprised that he mentions them at all because Australian affairs, and Australian politicians, usually don’t figure very prominently in the European media. I haven’t read his drivel but I presume that he became alerted to Howard via the Tampa Affair, in which, as you will remember, a Norwegian ship with refugees was involved. The fellow probably liked Howard’s stormtrooper approach which, as far as I know, caused some consternation among other Norwegians.

    Anyway, for what it is worth, here is a bit of an overview of Dutch press opinions. NRC and Trouw are ‘quality’ papers:

    What the papers say: links between Anders Breivik and the PVV

    Monday 25 July 2011

    Anders Breivik, who shot dead at least 68 youngsters in Norway on Friday, mentions Geert Wilders 30 times in his 1,500 page manifesto. The NRC and Trouw look at the links.

    In its analysis of Breivik and his ‘wonderment’ for the PVV, the NRC argues that there are similarities between both world views.

    ‘Both are very worried about what they see as the threat posed by Islam to Europe and blame ‘ruling elites’ for doing nothing about this threat,’ the paper states.

    ‘And whoever reads Breivik’s manifesto will recognise terminology used by the PVV: Multi-culti, cultural marxist ideology, dhimmitude and taqiyya. The analysis which Breivik makes about the threat posed by Islam to the future of Europe will also be familiar to the PVV, even though it is more apocalyptic.’

    Tarred with the same brush

    But the paper goes on to quote D66 MP Boris van der Ham who writes about the ‘triumphant’ website discussions linking the attacks to Wilders in the same way as Wilders tars all Muslims with a terrorist brush. But this sort of ‘guilt by association’ is an ‘idiotic reflex’.

    ‘People are always responsible for their own deeds’, whether inspired by the Bible, the Koran, communism or whatever, the paper quotes him as saying.

    Trouw

    Newspaper Trouw says the fact that the perpetrator is a white man who calls himself a convinced Christian conservative, is new.

    ‘This is not a dangerious or isolated nutcase but a political extremist; someone whose convictions have been fed by ideas from all sorts of right-wing groups, from the Tea Party in the US to Geert Wilders in the Netherlands,’ the paper says.

    ‘The PVV leader directly distanced himself from the attacks,’ Trouw writes. ‘But it is clear that conservative Christian thinking can manifest itself in radicalisation and terrorist deeds. And that should get everyone thinking.’
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  22. avatar lomboksurfer says:

    @Oigal – The cross hair targets have been used by every political party in the USA so you sort of sound like the far leftist types in the media who attempted to blame Sarah Palin for influencing the Arizona’ shooters behavior. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and that type of thinking was dismissed by the American public. The shoe bomber was an self-admitted member of an Al Qaida cell and subsequent investigations confirmed that information to be true. Anyway, those gun loving Americans have always prized their hard won freedoms and free speech and the right to bear arms are right on top of the list. The reason the country’s founders guaranteed those rights was to prevent the type of tyranny that you propose. Fortunately, real democracies like the USA protect individual rights and unfortunately they are sometimes abused by groups or individuals and yes there are sometimes tragic crimes committed. However, it would be a much bigger tragedy and crime if individuals rights were trampled because of the excuse that the people of the country were not trusted by the government to behave responsibly.

  23. avatar Oigal says:

    The fellow probably liked Howard’s stormtrooper approach which, as far as I know, caused some consternation among other Norwegians.

    That’s probably a bit too much of the left/green view but your point is taken. However, you don’t have to travel very far from this blog to find similar erratic views all linking to selective nonsensical current and historical events (all suitably twisted to meet the warped view of the world). We are (un) fortunate that we can find both perspectives on local blogs, the evil west and the evil islamists, curiously and sadly you can virtually overlay the two upon each other seamlessly. The one thing in common is the visceral hatred and ignorance of the cultures they both endlessly refer to in order to salve their own inability to understand the world around them

  24. avatar stevo says:

    It is not unusual for a man to kill in order to protect a way of life or culture.

    Usually this is done by mindlessly following orders. We call them soldiers and the act War.

    When a man does this because of his own considerations, we call him crazy and the act murder.

    Yet we all know which one kills more. You can begin by taking a look at the thousands of troops the USA has stationed around the world, in places they do not belong, killing Muslims daily. Men women & children die & why?

    This is justified as necessary to protect the American way of life. (Presumably from dirt poor Afghan Goat herders who, any day now, may launch an attack on the USA)

    How is this any less “crazy” than what happened in Norway?

    The fact is, the premise justifying Americas occupation of Afghanistan is even more absurd that the justification used by Breivik.

    However the perpetually self righteous socialist apologists, here, would not dream of speaking about Obama in the same terms as Breivik.

    Remind me how many innocents have died in Afghanistan, a war Obama massively escalated. I guess they were not white socialists, so don’t count ?

  25. avatar Oigal says:

    Wow..that’s so bizarre I don’t where to start Stevo..

  26. avatar stevo says:

    Its ironic that the liberal response to these acts is to call for increased media censorship of, so called, hate speech.

    This tragedy would not have occurred if people like Breivik were allowed to voice their opinions in the same way that the multiculturalists voice theirs.

    Simply denying open debate will not make the problem go away. It will drive it into the shadows to fester.

    Personally speaking, if someone does not like my race/religion/culture, I would rather read about it on the front page of the news than confront what those kids did !

    But those who crave acceptance by conforming with the socialist agenda want unapproved thinking banned.

    I guess that’s the great thing about socialism, you don’t need to bother forming your own morality, your just told to think things.

  27. avatar Arie Brand says:

    Oigal, “stormtrooper approach” is not just a way of speaking but meant quite literally. I don’t know whether you were in Australia right then but on Howard’s orders a group of commandos, a SAS unit, was sent to board a Norwegian trading vessel that had picked up people that were on the verge of drowning and tried, under international law, to put them ashore at the nearest port – in this case an Australian one.These heavily armed commandos had to prevent this.

  28. avatar stevo says:

    Wow..that’s so bizarre I don’t where to start Stevo..

    Dear Oigal,

    Was the point too subtle for you?

    What point do you not agree with?

    (Now remember…….. restrict yourself to what I ACTUALLY said. Not what YOU think/imagine. Its not cryptic, just assume the ordinary meaning of the words.)

    I know you can do it mate.

    You may fire when ready 😉

  29. avatar Oigal says:

    Sorry Stevo, your knowledge of the Australian Military is quite lacking. Firstly the soldiers were SAS not Commandos. Australian Commando units are not part of the SAS and have their own command structure and mission which is quite different to that of the SAS.

    Your version of the events is a best simplistic and worst a gross misrepresentation of what occurred. International law is very ambiguous about where and when a Captain may put to port under “distress”. There are any number of constitutional and legal issues involved and I suggest you read the for a better understanding than the tabloids.

    So in your world the soldier in Afghanistan can be equated to the nut case in Norway…nonsense trolling..not interested…see ya

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