Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia

Feb 28th, 2011, in Featured, News, by

Due to lack of time and motivation there are going to be more of these informal posts, which, I will endeavour to exclude from the RSS feed/mailouts/Facebook page [so far failing at that], so you'll have to actually check the site to see if anything new. It's better than nothing and the best way to go forward I think as we have a small community here that likes to talk about all sorts of things.

......

A few things on the middle east turmoil which have landed in front of me and might be of interest. I don't keep track of world news or any news much at the moment so plenty I've probably missed but here goes:

This video is very popular in the Arab world apparently, even though it's an Israeli made thing:

My favourite comment (from an American) on the airstrike on protesters in Libya:

.......But still: Qaddafi and his sons ruled in the old way, with nothing but their strong right arms. God bless the simplicity of these noble desert peoples! God keep them safe in their own countries, and out of ours! I'm struggling to think of a previous event in which someone has called in an airstrike on the mob. Grapeshot for a demonstration - yes. Machine guns? Naval artillery? It's all been done. But an airstrike? Now that's got to be some shock and awe. You're just peacefully out demonstrating with your picket signs, ski masks and sharpened agricultural tools, when a MiG blasts in out of nowhere and gives you some GPS-guided love. Wow! Qaddafi, like the honey badger, just doesn't give a sh*t.

By the way, my favourite (apparent - I just saw it on a blog once, no link) quote from Quaddifi, from years ago I think, sort of referencing his Africa first policy:

May God keep the Arabs well, and far away.

And to try to tie this in to the theme of this site - Indonesia - here is "Indonesia: An Example for Egypt, or a Democracy in Retreat?" by Robin Bush of The Asia Foundation, which seems to boil down to:

Indonesia has come a long way in a relatively short time and deserves much of the praise that is rather belatedly starting to come its way. It does provide an important example for Egypt, as a Muslim country that overthrew a dictator and integrated Islamic parties effectively into its democratic system. And, it has much to offer the region in the way of leadership on democratic transitions and reform. However, if it is to truly become a credible leader on regional and international platforms, it will have to confront head-on its own glaring problems in the areas of human rights and corruption. Many of the gains that Indonesia made in its reform process were made 10 years ago and have not advanced since. Now, a second wave of reform is needed to ensure that the country is able to live up to its tremendous potential – for the good of its own citizens and for the global community.

In the words of Madrotter... EnJoY!!!!!


129 Comments on “Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia”

  1. avatar ET says:

    It does provide an important example for Egypt, as a Muslim country that overthrew a dictator and integrated Islamic parties effectively into its democratic system.

    How effectively will only be revealed in time. Maybe sooner than later when the Ahmadiyah ultimatum expires. Anyway, somebody’s got to lose face unless the Ahmadiyah get smart and stop calling themselves muslims. I would if I was treated this way by my ‘brothers-in-faith’.

  2. avatar Lairedion says:

    In my view Indonesia is certainly a democracy in retreat and in desperate need of a second reformasi wave.

  3. avatar nobody says:

    it depends on what you are calling as “democracy”..
    rule of law?
    free to vote for or againts a government?
    press freedom?

    we already have those, and I think normal human evolution demands this..
    look every where.. the trend is the same around the world, the difference is only in pace.
    The few tyrants or dictators, kings that you see are actually left overs from the previous era.. most of them either installed by former colonial power, or took/grab power in the few years after independence. Do you see any new kingdom lately? no.
    Kings and queens got their powers diluted by the years, dictators get pulled down.. it is just fate. Religion does not seems to hamper it.

    The problem is, the definition of democracy just get bulkier every year. People just added new things to this definition of democracy just so that they can point on a country or a people they dont like as “un democratic”. It is not unlike cars. Every year new absurd requirements are being invented, like ABS, crash resistance, exhaust gas emission standard, etc, which most likely are just there so that making cars became more and more difficult for developing country like Indonesia, so that we keep buying their cars.

  4. avatar Nay says:

    People don’t want true freedom. They want the illusion of freedom and the state to secure them.

  5. avatar Arie Brand says:

    People just added new things to this definition of democracy …

    For instance ?

    The few tyrants or dictators, kings that you see are actually left overs from the previous era.. most of them either installed by former colonial power,

    For instance?

  6. avatar ET says:

    nobody

    Every year new absurd requirements are being invented, like ABS, crash resistance, exhaust gas emission standard, etc, which most likely are just there so that making cars became more and more difficult for developing country like Indonesia, so that we keep buying their cars.

    This is paranoia in the 3rd degree and one of the most outrageous comments I’ve ever come across. Are you joking or are you serious? Should the world stop turning because some can’t keep the pace?
    No wonder with a mentality like this some aviation companies were prohibited from entering an airspace.

  7. avatar Oigal says:

    new absurd requirements are being invented, like ABS, crash resistance, exhaust gas emission standard,

    Yes absolutely absurd, fancy thinking exhaust gas emissions should ever be considered..hack ..hack cough…sorry typing this in the clean air of Jakarta..

    Ans they do this to keep Indonesia down trodden…go figure! 🙂

    Ok, that’s officially a new level of crazy post…

  8. avatar nobody says:

    ET,

    “No wonder with a mentality like this some aviation companies were prohibited from entering an airspace.”

    I dont know why you mentioned aviation, but since you did:

    In the end of 1990s, Indonesia’s IPTN has finished developing its newest airplane, the N250 50-70 seater. There was few competitors in the class, and the only thing preventing Indonesia from selling this plane around the world is just American FAA certification. Guess what? The financial crisis came and IMF told Suharto to have IPTN to can the project.
    The plane already flies, and it is now just sitting in IPTN hangar collecting debu.
    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1995/08/16/25128/iptn-wins-approval-as-n-250-flies.html

    Guess what, came2010 and Indonesian airlines are now buying a lot of airplanes with the exact same specifications… like lion air:
    http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/atr-continues-surge-28833/
    And of course, they had to buy it from one of “them”, while now IPTN is in near bankruptcy, its 1000s of engineers siphoned by companies world wide.
    The local demand alone might’ve offset the production cost.

    Another example of systematic use of “certification” and other means to close down new competitors from developing (muslim) countries? or is this just paranoia?

  9. avatar nobody says:

    Arie Brand:
    “For instance ?”
    Kings installed by colonial powers..
    All those kings in the Middle East (Morocco,Jordan, UAE, etc) , the colonels and his sons or their party who either took over from the colonials or did a coup againts those kings in the 60-70s: Syria’s Assad, Iraq’s late Saddam, Ghaddafi, Algeria.

    What I am saying is, it is almost never happened, that a country which has already have free voting and a functioning democratic state for more than a few decade to descend back into autocratic model.

    For additions to meaning of “democracy”:
    Back in the early days, governance by popular vote was enough to be called a democracy.
    Now democracy basically means “pro west” and entails what ever is contained in USA constitution or what ever they will amend in the future. Expect a right for legalized same sex marriage or for a legal marijuana to be one of the requirements of democracy in the future.

  10. avatar Oigal says:

    “Now democracy basically means “pro west” and entails what ever is contained in USA constitution or what ever they will amend in the future. Expect a right for legalized same sex marriage or for a legal marijuana to be one of the requirements of democracy in the future.”

    What is “pro-west”?? You are not seriously suggesting that France, USA, Canada, Demark, Sweden, Germany etc are all one mighty force of common agendas.

    Please tell us which countries enshrine such nonsense as

    entails what ever is contained in USA constitution

    Nobody, you write reasonably well, therefore you have the intelligence to sort such Kumpang Mosque nonsense from reality. Question is why spout it?

    As for the N250 it was a copied dog of plane that due to costs spiraling out of control (as they do in any state controlled company) was not competitive and attracted little interest outside of Indonesia. In an effort to reduce costs Habbie and his cronies instead of stripping the fat from the organisation stripped more and more from the plane (smaller engine, no fly by wire) making it more of an international joke. Hey, if it helps to blame the US for what was yet another example of inept management free free. We can always move on to the technological marvel of the auto industry, the timur.. 🙂 or perhaps we could discuss the financial management of the nations ship building? Yes, We know its all part of dastardly plot…

  11. avatar ET says:

    nobody

    Another example of systematic use of “certification” and other means to close down new competitors from developing (muslim) countries? or is this just paranoia?

    Since you are playing the muslim card how do you explain Saudi Arabia followed the European ban in 2007?

    The ban may have been short lived for the major airlines due to diplomatic and commercial pressure, however there is seldom smoke without fire. If your mentality of distrust of technical developments for ethnocentric reasons is typical for your fellow Indonesian engineers and technicians then this would certainly not be conducive to further transportation safety.

    See also Indonesian Airlines.

  12. avatar Odinius says:

    Think Robin Bush’s quote is right on the money, though it leaves one thing out…while the major reforms were enacted right after Suharto’s fall, it took 5 years to even start getting most of them off the ground. Then another 5 to sort out many of the consequent, severe problems of transition–not least of which the need for the state to reassert its monopoly on legitimate violence in a democratic, human-rights oriented context. This is obviously still very much incomplete, but progress has been made since the low-point 9 or so years ago.

    The new round of reforms should have started just after the 2009 election. If SBY wants to truly create an historical legacy for his tenure as president, he should consider the advice Dr. Bush gives.

  13. avatar Lairedion says:

    Always blaming others for your own failures, we have seen it before. But you are one funny guy, nobody.

    Indonesia could be a great country but the guys running it are shockingly incompetent.

    Why don’t you take a look at Brazil who successfully entered the airline industry with their Embraer short-haul jets? You see them flying with major Western airlines.

  14. avatar Odinius says:

    Brazil has done some impressive things lately in terms of building an industrial economy, but it’s also still beset by a common problem with Indonesia: economic growth being too far skewed towards commodities exports. This only benefits a small percentage of the population.

    BUT…Brazil also has some severe problems in areas where Indonesia does not. For example, the murder rate among youths is now more than 50/100k…for the entire country. That includes all the wealthy areas, all the rural areas, all the suburbs and so on. In the favelas, it’s completely out of control. Not only that, Brazil has an increasingly severe, and increasingly political, problem with narcoterrorism. These are areas where Indonesia fares comparatively well. Needless to say, a given individual is in much greater danger of physical harm in Brazil than in Indonesia.

    ..and public sector corruption? The same. Brazil’s outgoing government was plagued by scandal, much of which is now only coming to light.

  15. avatar Lairedion says:

    Odinius,

    I’m fully aware of Brazil’s problems and challenges but they have been awarded to host both the FIFA World Cup and the Olympic Games. A great opportunity to make a giant leap forward. We’ll see how this evolves. For this moment I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    nobody cited technology as a tool to keep Indonesia from developing itself. I showed Embraer as an example a developing country actually can develop its own industry and compete with developed nations.

    As long as people put more importance to Qu’ran reciting and memorizing over mastering technology and progress they cannot blame anyone but themselves….

  16. avatar Odinius says:

    I hope you’re right about Brazil. But I don’t think major sporting events will solve its problems. Look at Greece.

    …and if it’s Qu’ran memorization that inhibits Indonesia from developing a high-tech industry, why is relatively more pious and restrictive Malaysia the world leader in semiconductors and many other high-tech industries?

    Indonesia’s economic problems are many, but don’t you think it has more to do with the easy money of commodities exports and garment factories inhibiting those with capital putting their investments in high-tech industry development? Indonesia has a very peculiar variety of the resource curse, in my opinion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

  17. avatar Lairedion says:

    Odinius,

    I hope you’re right about Brazil. But I don’t think major sporting events will solve its problems. Look at Greece.

    I didn’t say it will solve problems. I only pointed out it’s a great opportunity for a leap forward in the right direction. Time will tell.

    And I was merely reacting to nobody’s laughable statement on automotive technology being used to put Indonesia under.

    Malaysia? Same pattern of insecurity and jealousy. Their solution? A racist affirmative action NEP for bumiputera’s and still they didn’t achieve their target of controlling 30% of the economy.

  18. avatar ET says:

    Indonesia has a very peculiar variety of the resource curse, in my opinion.

    Aggravated by cultural and environmental factors. The abundance of readily available food and the warm climate make less need for future oriented investments and protection against the elements, freeing up time for non-productive religious and cultural activities, time which in places with harsher climates and less endowed with natural resources would be spent on education in science and technology. Money saved will be rather spent on luxury items like motorbikes and handphones than on books; computers are mainly used for Facebook and gaming instead of Excel and Wikipedia.
    In Bali for instance there’s a huge market in religious and cultural paraphernalia which only perpetuates itself, serves only to feed and please the gods but has no potential for further development. The amount of time spent on putting together myriads of offerings may have great ergo- and psychotherapeutical value but in practice only produces waste.
    The same applies to sholat and Koran studies in other areas.

  19. avatar Odinius says:

    I think the religious angle is pretty unimportant, in the big picture. Malaysia has a high tech industry because of capital investment and a far lower yield of natural resources, and in spite of being a more outwardly religious and religiously restrictive society. In Indonesia, it’s just easier for the people with capital to invest in kelapa sawit plantations because the land is there, it’s dirt cheap and the demand is high. I mean, if you had $1m to invest in something, wouldn’t you invest in the thing with lower overhead and a more certain ROI?

    This is where the government can step in. Like Malaysia, China, Korea and Taiwan before it, Indonesia can and should shape its taxation policies to incentivize high-tech investment and disincentivize resource extraction.

    Of course, does anyone think that’s actually going to happen? 😉

  20. avatar ET says:

    Like Malaysia, China, Korea and Taiwan before it, Indonesia can and should shape its taxation policies to incentivize high-tech investment and disincentivize resource extraction.

    What’s the use of high-tech investment if, unless you use only robots, there’s no qualified manpower to run the operations. So we’re back at square one. In my opinion the only way out of the doldrums is to prioritize the revenue of natural resources for massive investment in education re. economy and the positive sciences – like what is being done in India, China, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore and Korea – and provide enough opportunities for graduates in order to avoid brain drain.
    The question however is how do you break the mold of cultural and religious dependencies and promote work ethics adapted to the needs of modern technology.

  21. avatar nobody says:

    “What’s the use of high-tech investment if, unless you use only robots, there’s no qualified manpower to run the operations.”

    This is very outrageous.
    The graduates of UI and ITB is powering multinational companies and research institutes in around the word. 1000s of froeign graduates (about half, by some estimation) do not come home after their studies and work abroad for the development of their host countries.
    All because there is simply no job for them in Indonesia.

    Counting on FDA is not enough. They are useless for Indonesian development, I think. Japanese or chinese companies in Indonesia is mainly there for the cheap work force and for the big indonesian market. What can a PhD from Berkeley do in a company that is only producing something that is designed in Japan 10 years a go?
    If anything, the existence of these FDA in Indonesia and their subsequent claim to be part of “local industry/product” (hence asking to be included in any preferential treatment tax wise) is a parasite which took out the market share from locally designed and developed products by locally owned indonesian companies.

    Indonesia need to push out these leeches and use our very big potential market for the growth of our own home grown industry.

    Of course, the current officials prefers short term profits of availibility of some minimal wage emplyments. May be 1000s for a fewyears, until the foreign company found somewhere else where wages can be cheaper and move out.

  22. avatar Oigal says:

    This is where the government can step in. Like Malaysia, China, Korea and Taiwan before it, Indonesia can and should shape its taxation policies to incentivize high-tech investment and disincentivize resource extraction.

    Maybe one day when we get the Sri/Yenny Presidential ticket.. 🙂

  23. avatar nobody says:

    And for those who think negatively of Qur’an reciting and memorizing Muslims,
    keep in mind that the Ministry of Technology and Research, and the ministry of kominfo is held by Qur’an reciting and memorizing PKS cadre.
    This is not arbitrary, because actually Qur’an reciting and memorizing muslims is the most educated part of this country. Beer toting club cowboys seldom, if ever, became anyone important.

  24. avatar ET says:

    And for those who think negatively of Qur’an reciting and memorizing Muslims, keep in mind that the Ministry of Technology and Research, and the ministry of kominfo is held by Qur’an reciting and memorizing PKS cadre.

    They must have skipped the verses that say Allah created man from clods of congealed blood and that the sun sets in a black, muddy hot water spring.

  25. avatar Lairedion says:

    And for those who think negatively of Qur’an reciting and memorizing Muslims, keep in mind that the Ministry of Technology and Research, and the ministry of kominfo is held by Qur’an reciting and memorizing PKS cadre.

    Yes, we are all aware of that. How could you not with Tifatul Sembiring? 😆

  26. avatar Oigal says:

    Nobody, I am not about to wade into the Religion vs Education mix as to me it is self evident and is not restricted to Islam. Islam’s finest moment in education passed several centuries ago when it preserved Knowledge in the face of Christian Ignorance. However, the dogma twits have long since taken control of the Asylum.

    However, you are dangerous ground claiming educational prowess in Indonesia. Not because Indonesians cannot achieve educational excellence but because it has systemically ignored and betrayed by those with the purse strings.

    Anyone who has spend more than ten minutes outside of Jakarta should be appalled at the state of neglect of Indonesian schools and crap deals offered to teachers.

    At the seats of higher learning, I can only say “Blue Energy”, Tainted Milk and the Lapindo report…the words compromised and inept spring to mind.

  27. avatar Oigal says:

    Yes, we are all aware of that. How could you not with Tifatul Sembiring

    Laugh, I forgot about that :-)) …How could anyone infer intelligence and PKS in the same sentence. As the twittering fool as proven time and again they are mutually exclusive terms.

  28. avatar Oigal says:

    Qur’an reciting and memorizing muslims is the most educated part of this country

    Well the reality is that is not true. Whilst not in every case, the university is key in selecting candidates for job positions. The first thing we look for is what University as means of validating the degree the person pertains to have. The places you mention invariably give rise to further testing.

    Of course, you would be most offended by which Universities have the greatest credibility. I confess it gets up my biased nose as well, but facts are facts.

  29. avatar nobody says:

    “The places you mention invariably give rise to further testing.”

    Oigal, lets be objective. Dont compare them with Stanford or Yale just yet. But rich people who could not pass into these 2 univ go and are usually able to enroll into top Australian Univs, money permitting. They also have plenty of foreign students from Malaysia and their graduates are lecturing in malaysian univs.

    Habibie is one fine example of Indonesian education result who managed to held high position in a European technological company. His graduate degrees are from Germany but no amount of graduate school can change a kerikil into a berlian. He was already well educated when he come out of the Indonesian education system. There are plenty like him around the world, including in airplane production companies or even nuclear labs, who at least did their S1 in UI or ITB.

  30. avatar nobody says:

    Ok, I am curious as to which university has more credibility (in Indonesia). I assume we are talking about univs. within Indonesia.

Comment on “Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia”.

RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-18
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact