Islam is for Arabs

Apr 11th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

Two Javanese men fall foul of the law for saying Islam is an unwanted Arab import.

In the town of Pasuruan, East Java two men, Rohim or Rochamim and Toyib were taken to the police station by angry local residents on 10th April because of Rochamim's dangerous ideas about religion, to which Toyib had become a follower.

Rochamim says that Islam is an Arab religion and has nothing to do with Java or Indonesia and that those Javanese people who embrace Islam have been tricked by Arabs. He also says that five times a day prayers are unnecessary, and that the Quran is full of lies.

Abdul Kodir, a neighbour of Rochamim, says:

In the beginning he made it known that he didn't like Arabs, and then that he didn't believe in Islam anymore. But he used to be a Muslim.

The Pasuruan area has quite a substantial population of people of Arab (and Persian) descent.

Abdul said people in the area had known about Rochamim's deviant thinking for several months but hadn't done anything about it because they didn't feel right about taking action, for uncertain reasons. Rochamim had won a small following of people who often visited his house and Abdul said residents bided their time until they felt ready to deal with him.

Rohim and Toyib
Rohim and Toyib, undergoing questioning.

Toyib, a follower, explained that Rochamim taught that daily prayers were useless and Rochamim advised that these be replaced by devotional visits to graves.

After Rochamim was arrested his house was searched and a number of items used in mystical ceremonies and practices were seized as evidence by police.

The Pasuruan branch of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) is said to be speedily preparing a fatwa to condemn the ideas of Rochamim. Dhofir Azhari of the Pasuruan MUI has already paid a visit to the two men in custody and he reported that they had already apologised for their deviant Javanese ways. [1] [2]

Toyib has been charged under Article 156a of the criminal code dealing with blasphemy, while Rochamim has not yet been charged but is still in custody. Policeman Jebul Jatmoko says that Toyib is the one who spread the teachings to others.

Meanwhile about 30 of Rochamim's neighbours thronged the Pasuruan police station today to give evidence against the suspect. One of these people, Gus Muhammad, said he couldn't stand the presence of Rochamim's religious group in the neighbourhood and, went on "Gus Mad", as he is usually called, he hoped the police would deal with the criminals firmly. [3]

Rochamim has responded to the allegations against him by saying that he was merely practising a Javanese form of religion, kejawen, a kind of animism, which is not illegal, but that he had never insulted Islam or Muslims, or any other religion. He said he had eight followers who regularly came to his house to learn kejawen ways. [4]

13th April. Dhofir Azhari of the MUI says on the 11th he, or somebody, typed a new fatwa which condemned variation from the Quran and the hadiths as heresy. But no specific mention of Rochamim's teachings was made because the MUI is still examining the issue.

Police are still unsure whether Rochamim has committed any crime. Pasuruan policeman Rudianto says both of the men are being held at the police station for their own safety. [5]

Rochamim and Toyib are still at the Pasuruan police station. They are apparently living there, not being held against their will, because the residents of their village, Bugul Kidul, are not willing to accept them back.

Toyib is a suspect while Rochamim is a witness. Thoyib is accused of having said that daily prayers were unnecessary because no money was earned from them. [6]


62 Comments on “Islam is for Arabs”

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  1. avatar e askan says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 12:15 am

    I suppose this partly answers my previous inquiries about whether any Indonesians, besides outliers like Ambon or Manado Chirstians who really don’t even count as “Indonesian” are able to free themselves from the mental grips of pan-Arabism disguised as fundamental Islam. The MUI’s reaction likely explains why there’s not more people like them; who knows what would happen if this happened in a more radicalized area in West Java, Sumatra or Makassar.

  2. avatar guebukanmonyet says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 1:01 am

    Those guys have a point. Islam is too much driven by Arab values and Arab traditional customs. Our Indonesian clerics and government institutions should be aware of this and should implement more-Indonesian-islamic approaches something that Wali Songo did many years ago.

    Islam is not a religion for Arabs only, although it was born in Arab soil. But, so was Christian? and Jewish too. One example: the use of Arabic language is too much and I’m sick of that. God is not an Arabic that’s why God speaks and understands all languages in whole world. So, stop teaching your kids to pray in Arabic before they go to bed or before they eat! Tell them to pray in Indonesian or sometime in English, it’s okey. It’s better to pray in a language that we understand than Arabic that we don’t understand at all what it means. Praying is suppossed to be a two-way communication, that’s how we should talk to our God.

  3. avatar Angie says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 1:11 am

    Abdul Kodir, a neighbour of Rochamim, says: In the beginning he made it known that he didn’t like Arabs, and then that he didn’t believe in Islam anymore. But he used to be a Muslim.

    Toyib, a follower, explained that Rochamim taught that daily prayers were useless and Rochamim advised that these be replaced by devotional visits to graves.

    Satanic worshiper, what else exist in/around graves? Or perhaps BSH (barisan sakit hati/dissatisfied league) of Islam/Allah/Arabs.

    Frankly before I read the posting, I was expecting a revolutionary conversion of the Islamic teachings was advised by them, something more intelligent. Stupidity leads to stupid even idiotic actions and there’s no patch for stupidity.

  4. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 8:21 am

    These enlightened men are from East Java, chances are that they are Javanese. See, I told you so. It is very hard to wash Javanese off their traditional beliefs. Javanese are loyal to their own people and own heritage. That was the first thing I was taught very young. Anyone from Yogya or Solo? I am sure you will have little buddha or other Hindu God statues adorning your living room. There is a little Buddha in every Javanese. :)

    Angie: You must be taught from a very young age that visiting grave is satanic. I am afraid you are wrong. I visited my grandfather and father’s grave whenever I have time, and I encouraged my children to do so. What is wrong? Am I committing syirik? Certainly not, it shows the human side of me and my love for them. Ouch, why I am reasoning with a Muslimah. She is half intelligent.

  5. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 10:00 am

    Half intelligent still much better than Javanese Philosophy that women are only for “swargo nunut neroko katut”, it means according to Javanese when her husband is rich she can enjoy little bit while her husband has fully rights to enjoy his cemceman but if her husband bankrupt or poor she must fully support him.

    When rich chinese are busy develop further business opportunity whereas the rich javanese are also busy to collect cenceman.

  6. avatar Abdul Khalid al Jumhuri says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 10:55 am

    First, I admire the man (Rochamim) who speaks his mind and his belief. In Islam itself, this kind of movement is called Bid’ah bid’ah (Arabic: بدعة”Ž). MUI will always clam this kind of movement because who will stand here stating that MUI has never been influenced by the petrodollar coming from the al-Saud’s Wahabbian coffer?

    It is the al-Saud money and their Wahabbian friends who actually caught and jailed Rochamim. The money they are pouring for years until before the September 11 has now come to fruition: MUI is one of them. They have been known and found pouring tons of money all over the world to market the ARAB (Wahabbian) culture to the (fortunately or unfortunately) stupid locals who think any and all ARAB things are always good, holy, and after all, it is the language of the Qur’an, right?

    The only country which resist the influence in the Arabic peninsula is BAHRAIN. The rest has been swallowed by the United Arab Emirates clanship that was pushed by the al-Saud dynasty since the 20s and stronger even after the oil boom in the 50s. Here are some that characterized the movements:

    Wahhabis see their role as a movement to restore Islam from what they perceive to be innovations, superstitions, deviances, heresies and idolatries. There are many practices that they believe are contrary to Islam, such as:
    “¢ Listening to music
    “¢ Photographs or drawings of human beings or other living things which contain a soul
    “¢ Praying while visiting tombs (praying at Mohammed’s tomb, the prophet of Islam, is also considered shirk (polytheism))
    “¢ Following or trusting (taqlid) one of the four madhhabs (mazabs- Indonesian) of Islamic jurisprudence in their legal expertise, “except for one who is under necessity and can not reach the Sunnah.
    “¢ Non-literal explanations of God’s attributes, e.g. rejecting that “hand of God” could mean the power or control of god, rather than hand.
    “¢ Celebrating the maulid (birth of Muhammad)
    “¢ What they call, innovation in matters of religion (e.g. new supplementary methods of worship or laws) – Bid’ah

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

    It means that they have a LOT to do in Indonesia. The easiest is to use the stupid locals to make sure they could run AMOK in the name of Allah to people like Rochamim, Achmadijah, or if necessary the Shiah. Don’t worry, they already smacked Karbala to splintereen in the year of 801, and they will do it again now in much easier way: using stupid Indonesian to run AMOK for anything that they see it fit.

    As for the Indonesians themselves, well it is up to them. They could be proud of their cultural heritage like Balinese, Bataks, Javanese, or Buginese. Or, if they prefer, they should name their children not by Melati, or Bambang, or Manuhutu, or Kalla,; but by RAIHAN or NABILA, the most popular name of children in 2000′s in INDONESIA. If it makes you feel closer to GOD with those names, go ahead and be happy. For sure it makes the Wahhabis extremely happy!

    I have to got stucked with what I am, because I am from Hadramaut descent five generations ago, and we neither particularly appreciate nor believe the Wahabbian teachings. That is why I am Indonesian. But if Indonesia later become a Wahabbian state (GOD forbid), then may be I need to start thinking of what to do. I love Indonesia, this is my adopted country for generations, and I hate the thought to surrender my green passport.

    So, go ahead MUI, make sure you jail ROHAMIM, and get the funds funnelled to you worth it.

  7. avatar Sputjam says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 12:12 pm

    Freedom of faith is enshrined in God’s message in the koran, but not in men written message in the hadith.
    The saud family are keepers of the pagan faith called islamic religion. There is another family which makes the black veil which covers the kaabah and another which holds the key to the door to the kaabah.
    Once a year, the King of saudi enters the black structure to cleansed it.

    God’s messages was against all forms of worship. If you need God, merely call out to Him, whereever you are. Stop all paganism. For God does not forgive those who indulge in pagan worship.

  8. avatar Agusto says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    I wonder if the mostly moderate Indonesian will come to help that poor guy! Anyway he is an apostate worst than a kaffir and has to be beheaded Islamic style! Just like what almost happened to Abdul rahman of afghanistan if not saved by the kuffar!

  9. avatar Djoko says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    One example: the use of Arabic language is too much and I’m sick of that. God is not an Arabic that’s why God speaks and understands all languages in whole world. So, stop teaching your kids to pray in Arabic before they go to bed or before they eat! Tell them to pray in Indonesian or sometime in English, it’s okey. It’s better to pray in a language that we understand than Arabic that we don’t understand at all what it means. Praying is suppossed to be a two-way communication, that’s how we should talk to our God.

    Is it really that difficult to learn the basic meaning of the prayers youre reciting? I’m hardly an expert on it but I’ve started picking up the basic letters and can read the Arabic and with an English translation I can understand what the Arabic means. Particularly if you see some of the same words popping up in surah after surah it makes it easier to remember meanings.

    Reciting things from the Qur’an and hadits in Arabic is not so much ‘speaking God’s language’ but rather speaking the language in which God’s message was revealed in. Theres nothing holy about Arabic as such but if you go translating stuff into other languages you start to lose bits and pieces of that original message in the translation process. Ask anyone who does translations and at times the precise meaning of something is sacrificed because the target language doesnt have the exact same word with the exact same meaning in its vocabulary.

    I think if Indonesians really do want to be better Muslims they most certainly should understand the prayers that theyre reading out. For that reason just put in a little effort to learn the meanings of the surahs and prayers youre reading out. Its not too difficult. Sometimes I fear that some people try to weave nationalist chest beating arguments into their reasoning for not wanting to pray in Arabic when in fact its a case of laziness pure and simple.

    Interesting that you say prayers could even be said in English sometimes? So an Indonesian would go out of their way to learn English rather than Arabic in order to recite prayers which were originally in Arabic? Sense is a bit lost on me there. Like saying that people should learn mandarin to sing the Indonesian national anthem in.

    On the actual topic itself. These guys have a right to say what they want about Islam, it is (or rather should be) a free democratic right to do so. In fact what theyre saying is really not anything new to be honest. A lot of even proper Muslim Indonesian groups appear to have a built in suspicion of anything that is ‘Arab’.

    I am just a bit concerned that Indonesians at times tend to push off anything that is ‘wrong’ with Islam as being a result of ‘Arab’ influence. If that attitude keeps up Indonesian Muslims wont be able to conduct any meaningful reform of Islam to better face todays world because they will forever be boxed off into either being called a ‘radical/wahabi/Arab/fundamentalist’ Muslim or a ‘syirik/local/sinful’ Muslim.

  10. avatar Janma says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    So why has what these boys said against islam a police issue? Is it against the law (secular law)? Or is there religious law that the police also uphold in Indonesia? I don’t understand?

  11. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Abdul Khalid,

    What you are expecting from Saudi society? Are you expecting Saudi becomes fully democracy state where freedom of speech and expression are fully protected. You’re in very deep sleep once the existing fence and chain of the law of Saudi is broken up, there will be spiral violence spread anywhere.

    Remember Iraq Lessons, Saddam Husen is the best for Iraqis also Wahhabi is the best for Saudi.

    We are living in the real world’s and not in the ideals world’s as long as a state or Government can feed and control their own people, they don’t becomes a outbreak of trouble to neighbors country just leave it as it is.

    thanks,

  12. avatar Abdul Khalid al Jumhuri says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 3:25 pm

    Dear Cukurungan,

    Thanks for the reminder to keep the al-Saud family the way they rule now. I am 105% in agreement with you. I am no fan of this despot, but I do not expect much, and in fact I wish them all the best wishes. It is difficult to govern in the peninsular Arab with those many families and clans all fighting for power.

    All I wish for is that they do not start imposing their beliefs to other nations and make other non-Arabs to become semi-Arabs, through their unlimited petro dollars using “al-Haramain charity” mask and condonning violence in the name of religion. If some Indonesians have their syncretistic belief(s), let them have so long as they are not creating public offences (e.g., create violence, disturbing public order). If the state start to control its people on how to act on their faith, it became ridiculously stupid, nothing is more stupid than this.

    How could one assure if, because of the MUI (or state) imposition or threat Rochamim said “OK I am a Muslim, don’t put me in jail please. I repent, truly repent!” Then, he does the shalaat, act like shalaat, in the exact raka’at, in the exact timing, but he actually ridiculing the whole thing deep in my heart because I hate the imposition put into me. Can anyone get into my heart and actually see it? I don’t think so.

    Faith is all about trusting in God, Islam is about to surrender our life to Allah. How could one surrender when s/he was maltreated, watched, harassed, and continuously scrutinized? How could Islam (we) be a truly peaceful gift and grace to the world when all we do is acting pugnaciously around and self-annointing us above the rest of human being as the moral and spiritual police for others like this poor Rochamim and the many other Rochamims in Indonesia? Please God, spare us Moslems from this spiritual vanity.

    Assalaamualaikum.

  13. avatar Agusto says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    Janma,

    Those boys were taken to the police because their ideas are considered dangerous by the peaceful and tolerant local Muslims. Further more what ever you do or said that insults islam or considered heresy in Indonesia (and in most Muslim countries) is punishable by law (secular) under the code 341-348 “insulting religion”! In a full blown sharia beheading is the price you have to pay for insulting peaceful and tolerant islam! Have you heard what the Muslims wanted to do to a priest in a predominately Catholic Philippine lately? Those boys in java are lucky to get away with just some fatwas! http://donsingleton.blogspot.com/2007/03/behead-those-who-insult-islam.html.

  14. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Cuk wrote:
    Cukurangan: Your hatred for your own kind and contempt for your own heritage is alarming. You have Allah to blame that you are not born Arab. I can at least tell Hassan love his country and he thinks that shariah can solve our mess. You on the other hand get your feeling hyped up at the drop of a hat.

    Half intelligent still much better than Javanese Philosophy that women are only for “swargo nunut neroko katut”,

    I gather that you agree with me that Muslimah is half intelligent than men from your statement above. Thank you. :) At least you are honest. There is hope.

  15. avatar riccardo says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    Standing on the beach
    With a gun in my hand
    Staring at the sea
    Staring at the sand
    Staring down the barrel
    At the Arab on the ground
    I can see his open mouth
    But I hear no sound

    I’m alive
    I’m dead
    I’m the stranger
    Ki—– — —-

    Finish the last line of this popular Cure song.

  16. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    Aluang,

    I am a direct descendant of “siluman macan putih” and I also have magical stones so called “batu kinyang” with inherent capabilities “habis makan terus kenyang” he he he so one day if you get trouble just call my name 3 times close your eyes and touch your asxxx holes after that put in your mouth then you will taste “sampurnanig roso”.

    thanks,

  17. avatar IndoGood says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    Rochamim says that Islam is an Arab religion and has nothing to do with Java or Indonesia and that those Javanese people who embrace Islam have been tricked by Arabs. …. and that the Quran is full of lies.

    Is there any wrong in this statement above? take a look at this : http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Deception.Islam

    Is that wrong to say something which are not agree with Quran? While the Muhammad’s followers could say anything about Javanese (and Balinese) believe systems?

    Play fair friends, please!!

  18. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    Dear Djoko,

    Reciting things from the Qur’an and hadits in Arabic is not so much ‘speaking God’s language’ but rather speaking the language in which God’s message was revealed in.

    I think it is better rephrased as ‘in which Allah’s message was revealed in’. Certainly Hindu God, the Christian God and others have their favourite children.

    I think if Indonesians really do want to be better Muslims they most certainly should understand the prayers that theyre reading out. For that reason just put in a little effort to learn the meanings of the surahs and prayers youre reading out. Its not too difficult. Sometimes I fear that some people try to weave nationalist chest beating arguments into their reasoning for not wanting to pray in Arabic when in fact its a case of laziness pure and simple.

    I don’t think many want to be good Muslims. They just want to be good Indonesian for a united Indonesia. Someone posted ‘kesatuan’. Yes, pribumis were encouraged to register as Muslims because of kesatuan. It is common knowledge. If you don’t believe me, ask an older generation why so many Muslims haven’t attended a mosque before.

    Besides, being a good Muslim requires us to change our name to Arabic, being a good Muslim require us to destroy our cherished heritage, being a good Muslim require us not to take kaffirs as friends, being a good Muslimah, she has to admit she is half intelligent, there are hundreds more. So you see Djoko, Indonesian Muslims still use their traditional names, they look after the ancient temples, they are friend of Christians, Buddhists and Hindus, our women has their say in the household. Islam in Indonesia is for pribumis kesatuan. Our founding fathers have been rejecting stronger dose of Islam from the middle East since independence.

    We heeded the call for unity

    , now you trying to tell us we are tricked? How dare you say we make excuses and are lazy when we don’t want to act Arabs!

    Interesting that you say prayers could even be said in English sometimes? So an Indonesian would go out of their way to learn English rather than Arabic in order to recite prayers which were originally in Arabic?

    English is an international language used in many countries. Common sense tells me if Arabic is as widely used as English, I am sure not just Indonesian, but the whole world will go out of their way to learn Arabic.

    Sense is a bit lost on me there. Like saying that people should learn mandarin to sing the Indonesian national anthem in.

    This is lame to back an argument. I hope I did put your sense back on track.

    A lot of even proper Muslim Indonesian groups appear to have a built in suspicion of anything that is ‘Arab’.

    If left uncheck, Indonesia will become Indonesianistan. Achehnese is embarrassed to be called Indonesian, and they think we hate them. We are of the same malayo or malayic descents and are from the same lineage. How can one not be suspicious? Have you ever lived in Malaysia or Brunei? Why are they using Arab names and erasing century old traditionals? Does it scare you?

    I am just a bit concerned that Indonesians at times tend to push off anything that is ‘wrong’ with Islam as being a result of ‘Arab’ influence.

    There is nothing wrong with Arab but plenty of things wrong with Islam. I don’t even bother to begin.

  19. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    IndoGood: Prophet of Doom is an anti-Islamic site. We don’t need them here.

    MUI just have to be seen to be doing something when there is a complaint made. I heard that Dhofir Azhari is a Javanese so they are both safe. All Rohim and Toyib had to do is to remind him of Javanese brotherhood and all will be forgiven. We are not Arabs, we don’t tear each other apart. Blood is thicker than religion with Javanese.

  20. avatar Bas says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    Nice speech Abdul Khalid al Jumhuri!

  21. avatar Odinius says:
    April 11th, 2007 at 9:45 pm

    Sputjam wrote:

    “Freedom of faith is enshrined in God’s message in the koran, but not in men written message in the hadith.”

    I know there are some Muslims who reject the entire sunnah as written by men, not revealed by god and thus corrupted and at odds with the quran. One such site is http://www.submission.org I would guess you have a lot in common with the people who wrote this site based on your post.

    I’m not a religious fellow myself, but I am fascinated by theology, whether it’s Muslim, Christian, whatever. I have a close Muslim friend who does not agree with this idea, as she said this would mean throwing out 90% of actual practices (the quran says that you have to pray 5 times a day, but how you pray comes from hadiths). But it seems to make a lot of sense based on what the quran says about the quran being THE revelation of god (as in, the only one you should want or need). I also know that most of the issues of contention among Muslim groups derive from different interpretations of the sunnah or weighting different hadiths more or less. What’s interesting to me is that this hyper-fundamentalist way of thinking (quran only) seems to actually result in a more liberal version of Islam. I imagine, like protestant Christianity, it could potentially result in both more liberal and more radical variants.

    Maybe you or another Muslim could comment on this?

  22. avatar Sputjam says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 9:03 am

    If the masses follow the koran 100%, it is so simple. You can throw all daily prayers, pilgrimage, religious taxes, fasting out of the window.
    Jesus tried to explain these to the Jews, who had abandoned Moses messages in the torah. But of course, people are just addicted to ritual worship.
    Story about how the children of Israel built a statue of a heifer(cow) and perform worship around it when Moses was away explain the addiction mere mortals are to these worship rituals.
    Believe in God and focus on doing good deeds and lead a righteous life. You will be judged by your deeds alone (if you are a believer), not the number of times you worship. This message in the koran was abandoned by islamic religionist.

    The Koran contained some commandments/guidelines. If you trangressed, then you are considered wicked by God. None of the commandment explain anything about ritual woprship.

    An example of a person who trangressed God’s commandment would be Adam. So stay within the limits if you are righteous.

  23. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    Sputjam,

    Who is God? Where is He?
    Who is Iblis? What they’re doing?
    Why did God curse Iblis?
    What does purpose God create Human, Jin, Angles and Iblis?
    Has God already determined your position after live whether in Hell or Heaven ?

    thanks,

  24. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    Cuk, I will try my best even though you are not addressing me. I am non religious, but I think Javanese kebatinan is what best describe me.

    Who is God? Where is He?
    For believers, there is God or Goddess. Muslim believe in Allah, their one true God, Christian believe in Christian God, their one true God, Hindu believe in Hindu Gods, their true Gods are everywhere. God is in the mental block of a believer’s brain cells.

    Who is Iblis? What they’re doing?
    For believers, if there is Gods, then there should be a nemesis. According to most believers, Iblis corrupt men and make them evil. He encourages polygamy, paedophilia, plenty of sex in high heaven, incest, just to name a few

    Why did God curse Iblis?
    Which story book you refering to? Common sense tells me if God is Almighty, He don’t even need to curse, He will just turn Iblis into nothingness with a blink of an eye. Unless, of course, unless that God is not Almighty.

    What does purpose God create Human, Jin, Angles and Iblis?
    Certainly not to create and burn them in hell fire if they don’t submit. Common sense tells me a merciful God (if there ever is one) will not send a kind hearted person example Mother Theresa, to hell because she worshipped another God. Common sense also tells me a merciful God won’t send tsunami or earthquake to test how faithful His slaves are.

    Has God already determined your position after live whether in Hell or Heaven ?
    Depends on which story books. Be more specific next time. The God here you mentioned is ambigious. Muslims believe their fate is sealed as Allah is all knowing. So Allah can’t blame me for using my brain, as He already knew what was in store. Probably He is guiding me as to reply to your questions. I think Christian believe in sealed fate too. Hindu believe in reincarnation.

    I hope you are satisfied with my answer, as always I am guided by common sense. :)

  25. avatar Karina says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 6:29 pm

    Wow this is refreshing news! I wonder what made these guys turn their backs on Islam. But more importantly, I am glad that they have the courage to stick to their own belief system, not just riding on the popular wave.

    Revolutionaries (‘pelopor’) are always persecuted and ridiculed because they’re way ahead of their time.

  26. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    Odinius Said:

    What’s interesting to me is that this hyper-fundamentalist way of thinking (quran only) seems to actually result in a more liberal version of Islam.

    Cukurungan say:

    It is not quite correct becoz even in the beginning of Islamic Age, there was a groups so called “Khawarij”, this groups was interpreting Quran as theirs own desire and rejected sunnah or hadist. Based on theirs own interpretation anyone beyond theirs groups was legimate target for killing, “khawarij” was killers of Calip Umar and Ali. Therefore, the thinking of Quran only (interpretation without sunnah) could lead two different poles either super tolerance or super killers. Khafi & Sputjam fit to the former whereas Alqaeda almost fit to the latter.

    For the mainstream moslem, we are fully realize the division within Islam is unavoidable becoz 1400 years ago our prophet already said His ummah will be clustered even much bigger than Yudaesm and Christianity cluster and it seemed already proven.

    thanks,

  27. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    Aluang,

    He he he I was so amazed with your development so don’t forget repeat and repeat again the ritual that I already teach to you.

    However, I you don’t satisfy with the taste of “roso sejati” just push your fingers deeper to your axxxh hole then suck it up very slowly.

    thanks,

  28. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 8:19 pm

    our prophet already said His ummah will be clustered even much bigger than Yudaesm and Christianity cluster and it seemed already proven.

    Cuk, according to your logic, I can place you in Ahmadinejad’s league. Tell tale signs are everywhere. The twin tower, Bali bombings, sunni vs shia, islamization of Europe, etc, etc, and it seemed already proven. Your Al-Mahdi is coming.

    Wake up, Cuk. Indonesia is suffering with dreamers like you. Check yourself in a local Mutiara Women and Children abuse centre or any affiliated hospice. See for yourself how your people suffer.

  29. avatar Cukurungan says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Aluang,

    This time you are wrong, I am “SATRIO PANINGIT that you’re waiting as the javanese savier hua ha ha so don’t forget call my name 3 times, repeat and repeat again your ritual.

    Regard
    Raden Mas Cukurungan bin Cukurmiring (Satrio Paningit)

  30. avatar Odinius says:
    April 12th, 2007 at 11:14 pm

    Cukurungan: I also said

    I imagine, like protestant Christianity, it could potentially result in both more liberal and more radical variants.

    So I definitely see the potential for what you are describing.

    I guess I am talking strictly about anti-sunnah people, of whom I can’t think of any contemporary right-wing variants (though there may be some).

    Bin laden, al zawahiri and other al qaeda leaders, I understand, follow a very radical branch of salafism, they do accept the sunnah, but reject the shafii, hanbali, hanafi, maliki traditions of legal and theological scholarship as well as both traditionalist and modernist conceptions of ijtihad. As far as I know, for them you follow the sunnah as literally as possible and weighted by which hadiths are from salafs closer to the prophet. Plus, unlike peaceful salafis in the gulf states, they believe in physical jihad over spiritual jihad, that you don’t need religious authority issuing fatwas to wage jihad (you can just issue them yourselves) and that jihad doesn’t need to be defensive.

    This last part is, from what I understand, why even most salafis reject the al qaeda way of looking at things.

    Does Khafi also follow just the quran and not the sunnah?

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