Religious Tolerance

Mar 17th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

Even during the Crusades Muslims had religious tolerance.

Former president Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur) says during the Third Crusade in the 12th century Muslims and Christians had no hate for each other even while they were fighting, as evidenced in the relationship between the two opposing commanders, Saladin (Salahuddin) and King Richard the Lionheart.

Speaking in Kediri to a gathering of the Partai Kebangkitan Bangsa (PKB) Abdurrahman Wahid said Saladin once offered medical treatment to the injured Richard, because at that time Muslims were much advanced in the ways of medicine.

Abdurrahman Wahid
Abdurrahman Wahid.

In the Ramla treaty of 1192, Wahid goes on, Muslim control of Jerusalem was formalised but Saladin agreed to allow Christian pilgrims to continue visiting the city.

Saladin was famous in Europe, and well respected, with much poetry and literature being written about him including Walter Scott's The Talisman in 1825.

At that time in history Muslims were full of tolerance but these days they lack it, said Wahid. He condemned the existence of radical and fanatic groups in the country and said he couldn't understand what they were afraid of. [1]


36 Comments on “Religious Tolerance”

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  1. avatar Colson says:
    March 17th, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    Gus Dur may be blind, but he has a clear view on this matter.

  2. avatar 1ndra says:
    March 17th, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    Maybe he just watch Kingdom of Heaven last night. :)

  3. avatar Andrew says:
    March 17th, 2007 at 11:02 pm

    Always good to know that the nation still have someone who’s not short-sighted or narrow-minded. Although he’s blind.

  4. avatar Bas says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 3:25 am

    Gus Dur is no less than one of the last sane man in Indonesia. Read his books. All he says is just so true. Especialy about religion and education. Thumbs up!

  5. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 3:27 am

    It is good to see that Gus Dur still can make sensible comments about these matters, I don’t agree with everything he says but he is a good example of tolerance in action, and somebody who is not afraid to accept that history can be used to try and stop us repeating mistakes made in the past.

    Just for info 1ndra, Kingdom of Heaven was centred around a character called Balian of Ibelin, and the historic battles were some years before Richard the First even went to Jerusalem. I don’t think Gus Durs knowledge comes from Hollywood! :-)

  6. avatar riccardo says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 6:44 am

    I agree that Gus Dur has a lot more vision than all of his countrymen with healthy eyes.

    The answer to why Muslims don’t have tolerance now is due to inferiority. They’ve been defeated time after time over the centuries and slipped further and further behind the rest of the world, not only the West, but northeast Asia and Latin America as well. At the time of Saladin, they were a world power and had confidence. It’s easy to be benevolent and tolerant when you are in a position of superiority, but it’s nearly impossible when whole societies of Muslims have been defeated, beaten down and suffer from an intense inferiority complex.

    So rather than work harder to improve and compete with the West on an even intellectual and technological playing field, they decide to focus on hatred and terror.

  7. avatar Hassan says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 11:03 am

    riccardo: You said, “They’ve been defeated time after time over the centuries”.

    Are you talking about the Palestine related middle eastern wars? That’s hardly “several centuries”. The Muslim world suffered a decline (politically and militarily) ever since the fall of the Ottoman empire (or caliphate). Muslim countries (and almost all of the world’s weaker countries) had succumbed to Western colonialism since those days, until their independence several decades later. Read your history, and don’t give comments based on your own vague ‘perception’.

    “At the time of Saladin, they were a world power and had confidence.”

    At the time of Saladin, Muslims have a caliphate. Muslims, that’s yet another proof that we must unite under one banner, have a single authority, and rebuild the caliphate state. Although I doubt people like Mohammed Khafi or Sputjam will agree. They believe religion is for the individuals, and not the whole ummah or society.

    “It’s easy to be benevolent and tolerant when you are in a position of superiority, but it’s nearly impossible when whole societies of Muslims have been defeated, beaten down and suffer from an intense inferiority complex.”

    Actually, it’s difficult to be benevolent when the whole Muslim world is constantly under attack, both physically (like Afghan, Iraq, etc.) and mentally (the ‘terrorist’ stigmatization, insulted all the time, etc.). One thing for sure, it’s difficult to be benevolent when certain non-Muslims here (like you riccardo, Augusto, Ismail, etc.) kept on throwing dirt to our faces.

    “So rather than work harder to improve and compete with the West on an even intellectual and technological playing field, they decide to focus on hatred and terror.”

    Not entirely true, as those who did commit terror acts and spread hatred are not legitimate representatives of Muslims worldwide. Believe it or not, we did not vote for Osama, ABB, etc. and put them in office or anything. It’s not that the entire worldwide Muslim community made some sort of manifesto or pact to do all those things consciously.

    One thing is certain though, in Indonesiamatters.com it is the non-Muslims (certain people, not all) who are constantly spreading hatred and insults towards Islam and Muslims. Muslims here have hardly ever started any hate propagandas and insults towards non-Muslims.

    I have found that it was the supposedly tolerant Christians (some of them, not all) who were the most intolerant, rude and grossly offensive bunch of people here, in our favorite site Indonesiamatters.com. Some did that out of ignorance, and some did it out of self-righteousness.

  8. avatar Hassan says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Correction, I should have written “I have found that on the topic of religion, it was the supposedly tolerant Christians (some of them, not all) who were the most intolerant, rude and grossly offensive bunch of people here, in our favorite site Indonesiamatters.com” in that last paragraph.

    Regards.

  9. avatar Colson says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Hassan: Your contribution is, I think, a very interesting one. And you made, I think, some points – and missed some.

    I do agree there’s a lot of Islam-bashing going on. In my perception a lot of non-Muslims in the western world don’t trust Muslims in their midst and are even afraid of them. Fear, not the feeling of superiority, is at the bottom of this attitude. The perception of a certain religion as a lethal danger, is a misperception of course. But, usually, this kind of reaction is caused by a world of uncertainties (for instance globalization is undermining western welfare states and unemployment is looming for millions). Under these circumstances people tend to turn xenophobic and to look for scapegoats – traditionally Jews were targeted in Europe, Chinese in Indonesia and Muslims are a candidate now in some parts of the world. It goes without saying that this kind of serious stereotyping has next to nothing to do with reality. The 1 – 5% bastards among atheists, Buddhists, Hinduists, Jews, Christians or Muslims are not representative of the majority at all. Neither is the selection of awful, cruel, hateful quotations from the Holy Books proof of evil intentions of people with a different religion. But it may end in a selffullfilling prophecy: kill them before they kill us. I would like the moderates on each side to become more radical in their discussions with their extremist soul brothers.

    But in my opinion you are wrong about the Muslim world as such being under attack. Kabul and Bagdad are not capitals that were occupied because they are in a Muslim world. As far as i can see that’s mere coincidental, because these wars are not about religion but about the control of the fuel in the middle east. Such a foreign policy ( of the US and “the coalition of the willing”) stands to reason – the offical motivation ( war on terror) doesn’t. Of course actually some mighty warmongers took advantage of the situation. They succeeeded to mobilize the fear and anger (after WTC, Madrid, London, Bali) of western civilians, to go to war. The Bush-administration has been able to choose a very irresponsible and dangerous road. But one has to admit the way has been paved by the Osama’s and the like. The saying went “not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terorists are Muslims”. Unfortunately the condemnation of these terror attacks were rather mixed in the Muslim world. Once more: I would like the moderates.

    It is up to reasonable people (like Gus Dur) to defuse the overheated debate and to silence the religious-political extremists. I think a quiet and decent discussion about the necessity of accomodation of religion(s) to modernity is unavoidable – for instance about the Roman Catholic Church and celibacy, abortion and the use of condoms or Islam and human rights in relation to shariah and the Trias Politica.

  10. avatar Cukurungan says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 8:36 am

    Colson,

    I think here is a better words:

    All amateur terrorists are moslem while the big and professional terrorist a Jew and Christian.

    Riccardo,

    If you thought we moslem have inferiority feeling toward the west achievement, it is only your illusion sir.

    Yes, there is no question that small parts of us are so amazed with the west achievement so they thought by adopting the western value and the system, it can improve our live and society but we majority aware that those western achievement was only a fatamorgana achievement while the real essence of their society are not even better than us. See their murder rate, suicide rate and abortion, teenage pregnantcy and kid molestation are not even better than us(the most backward country in ASEAN).
    ]
    Concerning the world’s domination God said it will be rostered among the mankind as He wish. Christian country domination has not more than 300 years yet while the previous moslem domination was last after more than 700 years. And it seemed the west dominantion will not last any longer and China and India will replace them soon.

    Until today you can see that the youngest religion on this earth are not in the lossing sides in the war mind and ideas.

    Hundred years Western colonialism and invasion were only able to defeat and eliminate non-moslem people like red indian, papuan,and aborigin but failed to create any nest in the moslem majority country.

    Indonesia were almost 350 years under Dutch Christian colonies but Dutch failed to create non-moslem majority here.

    And now voice of the sharia law enforcement are even growing stronger in the moslem majority country.

    The hatred and terror campaign launched by the small minority of the moslem was clearly not in respond to the western advanced achievement but rather a natural reaction against the big terror and un-just campaigned by the US and its allied toward our brother moslem.

    Is there any Al qaida threat against Sweden and Swiss so far I never heard such thing the reason both countries are their hand clean from the wrong doing toward moslem people.

    As long as US terror and un-just campaign against moslem are continuing there will be the nature balance re-action to those action.

    Don’t forget one’s God Law explained by Newton, any an action force will always resulting a reaction force on the opposite direction. This God law are applicable forever on this earth.

    regard,

  11. avatar Andrew says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 9:07 am

    Cuk, so are you confirming that Islam is synonymous with terrorism? are you confirming that those “reactions” against the west are really done by true moslems?

    I honestly would be ashamed if someone who claimed to be my brother(s) blew up other people… but a lot choose to be proud, oh what can I say.

    And by the way, if the west is really attacking Islam, how come your other “brothers” like Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait etc. are instead making friends with the “infidels”? or is it just you and your paranoid and confidence-lacking brothers that are feeling inferior and insecure?

  12. avatar Dimp says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    Hi Cuk,

    Indonesia were almost 350 years under Dutch Christian colonies but Dutch failed to create non-moslem majority here.

    Correction, the only intention for the Dutch (or VOC) is to do business, not to make Indonesia a Christian country, again you should check your facts.

    Under Dutch (VOC) we managed to reach to the World Cup finals (in 1938) as Dutch East Indies, so were we better off then?

    The hatred and terror campaign launched by the small minority of the moslem was clearly not in respond to the western advanced achievement but rather a natural reaction against the big terror and un-just campaigned by the US and its allied toward our brother moslem.

    I wonder why the rest of the Moslem countries like Andrew mentioned did not react the same way as you towards the American. Are they not moslem then?

    BTW, Isaac Newton was an English scientist, shouldn’t he be against moslems by your judgment then?

  13. avatar Ihaknt says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Cuk, if you want to post a long winded comment, make sure it’s credible not just bollocks. Oh you forgot the sok pintarman embel-embel.

  14. avatar Robert says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    Cukurungan,

    Hundred years Western colonialism and invasion were only able to defeat and eliminate non-moslem people like red indian, papuan,and aborigin but failed to create any nest in the moslem majority country.

    Funny you mention the Papuan people. They got a rough treat since West-Papua was brought under Indonesian rule. Then the bloodshed really started. If there is a government responsible for the demise of the Papuan people it is the Indonesian government and not western colonialism.

    Indonesia were almost 350 years under Dutch Christian colonies but Dutch failed to create non-moslem majority here.

    They never intended to create a non-Muslim state. The dutch had a financial/economic agenda, not a religious one. Especially the VOC history has written Money all over it.

    As long as US terror and un-just campaign against moslem are continuing there will be the nature balance re-action to those action.

    What we see happen is that Muslims are fighting other Muslims: Sunni vs Shi’a in Iraq and Hamas vs Fatah in the Gaza strip. It doesn’t seem “brotherhood”-like behaviour to me. Maybe this is nature’s way to get a balance again. I don’t think Newton had this in mind when he was writing down his laws of physics.

  15. avatar Colson says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 3:21 pm

    @Cukurungan: Please, can you tell me where, for instance, the recent military and humanitarian support of NATO ( North Atlantic Treaty Organization) for Bosnian Muslims in their struggle against the Christian Serbs, or for the Muslim Albanians in Kosovo against ( again) the Christian Serbs, fits in your theory of a world wide western conspiricay against the religion of Islam?

    (I’ll give a hint: Mature foreign policy is not about religion but about strategic power and control.)

  16. avatar Niamh Piperman says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    Hassan Says:
    March 18th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Correction, I should have written “I have found that on the topic of religion, it was the supposedly tolerant Christians (some of them, not all) who were the most intolerant, rude and grossly offensive bunch of people here, in our favorite site Indonesiamatters.com” in that last paragraph.

    Regards.

    Intolerance of religious intolerance is different from intolerance to Islam per se. Unfortunately for Indonesian Islam, there is a high degree of Muslim intolerance towards non-Muslims, particlularly towards Christians, in this country and thus many of the seemingly ‘offensive’ comments I’d argue are directed to that sort of religious intolerance and not towards overt criticism of Islam (‘islam bashing’) as a whole.

    There is also Hindu intolerance of minority religions on Bali, of which I for one am equally critical. Be careful not to make inaccurate accusations. Trouble is, in Indonesia it’s Islam which stands out as being most intolerant, like it or not.

  17. avatar Sputjam says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 7:35 pm

    Muslim religious intolerance are due to the writings in the koran that the Christians and Jews has strayed from God’s path and warnings about pagan worship and those who do not beileve in God.

    Tolerance can be instilled if mankind abandon religion altogether and embrace God’s deen (Way/system/order).

    In God’s deen, there is no clerics/preachers/imams.
    Your only guide is the koran or the bible of Jesus, or torah of moses.
    Only then can you see the folly of religion. acts such as blowing innocents by miusing the name of God, praying to a man called Jesus, or worshipping around stones, can only happen if you follow the religion of your ancestors without observing and understanding God’s true message.

    Abraham used to pray to the sun and the moon. until he realised his folly and asked his father to stop practising it.
    Abraham then served the creator of the sun and the moon, by upholding his commitment to doing good deeds and be righteous. God’s guide to the straight path are written clearly in the koran but never emphasised by Muslims of today.

    Ever wondered why there are no guidance on how to worship God in any scriptures? That is because God does not require to be worshipped, nor does He need any offerings. God the glorious is free of all wants. He is the sustainer and does not require any form of sustenance from us.

    There are no holy sites or house or mosque in God’s deen. Those who died fighting for jerusalem have died in vain. Only those with religion cannot see the wickedness of their action, fighting for a piece of territory with no significance what so ever. God says He will place a veil over those who disbelieve, and although they have eyes, they cannot see. being deaf, dumb and blind, they will be lead astray.

    The job of believers is to confront unbeilevers in a non-agressive way, for God hates aggression and arrogance.

    Mohamed’s enemies were pagan Arabs who worshipped stones, especially the one placed in the kaabah in mecca. He tried his best to defeat the pagans, but in the end, the Arabs just cannot understand what he was talking about.

    Similarly Moses and Jesus. After their time, men went back to their evil worshipping ways. Hence the carnage you see everyday due to religion. There is no such thing as religious tolerance.

  18. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    Hassan, I do not understand why you are trying so hard to defend Islam. Islam culture clashed directly with Indonesian culture. Islam is slowly suffocating our culture and if we don’t do anything now, we are betraying our ancestors. Don’t you have any national pride at all.

    Actually, it’s difficult to be benevolent when the whole Muslim world is constantly under attack, both physically (like Afghan, Iraq, etc.) and mentally (the ‘terrorist’ stigmatization, insulted all the time, etc.). One thing for sure, it’s difficult to be benevolent when certain non-Muslims here (like you riccardo, Augusto, Ismail, etc.) kept on throwing dirt to our faces.

    Why would you want to make it looks as though you are the victim here, when you are the first to throw stone at your Indonesian brothers. Here is a list why Islam is intolerant and male-centred,

    1. Calling non-believer kaffir. This is childish.
    2. Punishment for apostasy. This is intolerant.
    3. Islam allows polygamy. This violate women’s right.
    4. Divorce one’s wife by saying ‘talak’ 3 times. No respect for women.
    5. nikah mut’ah or contract marriages. Degrades our society.
    6. Stoning of women. Treating women like animal.
    7. Wife beating. This violate women’s right.
    8. Forcibly force women to wear the hijab (kerudung). No freedom.
    9. Amputation for theft. This is barbaric.
    10. Capital punishment carried out in open square. This is primitive.
    11. Jihad against infidels. Hardly tolerant.

    These are the rule of the jungle. How could you justify stoning of helpless women and inhumane amputation for theft as Indonesian moral value. Our Indonesian tradition has code of conduct and moral values passed down through generations, and why should you think we have to opt for a desert culture far less refined than ours? This is treachery.

  19. avatar Cukurungan says:
    March 19th, 2007 at 9:54 pm

    Andrew,

    Please check again my comments, I never said those al-qaida members are “true moslem” but those alqaida members were claimed their self as moslem. Are they “true moslem”, I think only God knows the answer. Don’t ask me because even I don’t know whether myself is really “true moslem” or not.

    See again in details my post, I never said all the western country are against Islam I just put an example Sweden and Swiss both country are welcomed anywhere in this world’s.

    You’re talking about Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait rulers who made friendship with the west and US, you must be in big kidding or”pura-2 tidak tahu” even a blind people understood that those friendship (US and those Arabic Government) were driven by the same interest not by religion. For shake of the US interest the current Arabic Kingdom are much better friend than a hostile rulers like Saddam or even hostile Republic like Iran whereas for the Arab Rulers are the same like other rulers anywhere in this world’s, the most important thing are not religion but the survival of theirs dynasty and those can be secured by the goods relationship with the western power. US Gov. so generous flooded billion dollars to Moslem Majority Country Egypt and Jordan. Their real intention is not welfare moslem but to secure the survival of their pupet rulers if not the Ikhwanul Moslem will prevail and another big trouble for US interest in the middle east.

    Dimp,

    Don’t tell me the real intention of the Dutch in here. Did you think that our freedom was gifts from the dutch and there was no colonialism Dutch what they done is merely business and the million death during Indo freedom struggle was nonsense stories.
    You concluded that live under Dutch colonialism is better off than today Indonesia and the dead of millions our brother moslem during the freedom struggle were worthless than the Final World’s Soccer. You’re very goods man sir then why you don’t follow RMS to live happily in the netherlands.

    If the Dutch wasn’t intend to own the Indonesia why their descendants (africaner) hase been making a nest in the south africa.

    regard,
    Dirty Moslem

  20. avatar Andrew says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 2:50 am

    You’re talking about Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait rulers who made friendship with the west and US, you must be in big kidding or”pura-2 tidak tahu” even a blind people understood that those friendship

    Cuk, I never said that the relationship is based on religion.

    Their real intention is not welfare moslem but to secure the survival of their pupet rulers if not the Ikhwanul Moslem will prevail and another big trouble for US interest in the middle east.

    Everyone knows that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Every government will do anything to ensure the safety and security of its people. The same is done by the US government. It is definitely NOT spending money without expecting any return.

    Whenever a country – any country – has a pressing interest that requires a certain amount of control over other countries, diplomatic gesture goes first – and if that doesn’t work, military power comes next. Every government does that, or I should say, want to do that - the question is, whether or not they have the same diplomatic (or military) power to do so. The US does it because they have both. Not so many other countries do it simply because they don’t have the power.

  21. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 4:24 am

    Please check again my comments, I never said those al-qaida members are “true moslem” but those alqaida members were claimed their self as moslem. Are they “true moslem”, I think only God knows the answer. Don’t ask me because even I don’t know whether myself is really “true moslem” or not.

    Dear Cukurungan, you and your co-religionist Al-Qaida are holding and reading from the same Arabian story book. The difference is that ours and their version are different. And do you know why? I will tell you why. Strong tradition and cultural values run deep in our ancestors’ blood, even to this day. Indonesian Islam is very much diluted simplly because it clashed with our traditional culture and values. Islam is man made male-centred, whereas across the vast Indonesian archipelagos, our heritage varies from equal-gender to matriarchal. Islam was not readily accepted and it was toned down before entering by way of sufism. Pak Harto is a sufi Muslim, and it was always rumoured his wife runs the household and pulling string behind. This is our Indonesian values. We love and respect our women.

    However, the point is as long as you and them are holding and reading from the same book, there is a chance that one day your children or descendants may interpret the version of Al-Qaida and other fundamentalist’s version. The possibility is always there.

    US Gov. so generous flooded billion dollars to Moslem Majority Country Egypt and Jordan. Their real intention is not welfare moslem but to secure the survival of their pupet rulers if not the Ikhwanul Moslem will prevail and another big trouble for US interest in the middle east.

    The biggest donations and disaster funds for our disaster came from non-Muslim countries, and Australia and the US are the biggest contributors. What happened with our rich Middle Eastern brothers? They donated on the condition that they set up madrasses and mosques. These are humantarian aid, not conspiracy theory as you put it.

    You’re talking about Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait rulers who made friendship with the west and US, you must be in big kidding or”pura-2 tidak tahu” even a blind people understood that those friendship (US and those Arabic Government) were driven by the same interest not by religion.

    The US is paying for the oil with the price set by the Arabs. It is a very fair dealing.

    For shake of the US interest the current Arabic Kingdom are much better friend than a hostile rulers like Saddam or even hostile Republic like Iran whereas for the Arab Rulers are the same like other rulers anywhere in this world’s, the most important thing are not religion but the survival of theirs dynasty and those can be secured by the goods relationship with the western power.

    Yes you are right. Muslims are hostile to each other. The claim of universal brotherhood of Muslim is a hoax. Left on their own, Muslims will self destruct. Look at the ME and you can see the pictures. Shias vs Sunni, Hamas vs Fatah, etc, etc.

  22. avatar Cukurungan says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 10:43 am

    Robert,

    I was deliberately put “papuanese” to check whether you admitted the wrong conduct of the western Christian toward billions of people in the third world. So papuan case was wrong and the rest is correct.

    I already said so many times that most human conflicts weren’t for religion but for domination. However, don’t forget that the Christian mantra (God, Gold and Glory) during their previous swept world wide when the moslem were still in the deep sleep.
    Dutch wouldn’t need to leave Indonesia if they were able to make their nest in here like in south africa.

    Our brother moslem’s internal conflict are no different with the western internal conflict like in World’s War 1&2, Christian and Roman Chatholic War and US Civil War, “so what”.

    Colson,

    Did you think that’s NATO helped in Bosnia and Kosovo just for the sake of the moslem fate. You can deceive anyone else but not me. Because NATO didn’t want a nest of the hard line moslem in their own backyard. Otherwise, Alqaida and Hisbullah already made based on there.

    regard,
    sokpintarman

  23. avatar Tomaculum says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 1:18 pm

    Religious tolerance???
    What a contradictory/antagonistic statement!

  24. avatar Dimp says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Hi Cuk,

    I don’t have to make further comments to your last post, you clearly have shown your true colour to the rest of the people here.

    Congratulations.

  25. avatar Colson says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    Mr Cukurungan,

    I admire your courage to keep on sending in your dissenting opinions ( as far as this weblog is concerned). As for me I do appreciate your efforts.

    I’m amazed how difficult it proves to be to get a dicussion that’s free of stereotypes which damage the fair exchange of facts and opinions. That’s strange, because i presume all of us are well educated people. Nevertheless it’s worth while to keep on trying.

    I’m worried about societies in which politicians and opinion leaders think it is in their interest to replace common sense in the public domain by zealotry. Blind ideology -be it secular or religious – often leads to the total disaster zone.

    I sincerely hope (pray as you like) people like Gus Dus will succeed in preserving the qualities of the tolerance of the Indonesia I love.

    PS: Well, you did succeed to fit in my NATO-point. You even made it look like proof of what I only can see as your misconception of Muslims being victims of the “West”( mirabele dictu: except Sweden and Switzerland) always and everywhere. Your reasoning however, in this case, reminds me of fanatic believers in the theories of Freud; any fact will be turned into “proof” by a true Freudian.

  26. avatar Robert says:
    March 20th, 2007 at 3:33 pm

    Cukurungan,

    I was deliberately put “papuanese” to check whether you admitted the wrong conduct of the western Christian toward billions of people in the third world. So papuan case was wrong and the rest is correct.

    I didn’t say the rest was correct. I was thinking that the Indonesian people who have been colonized for 350 years would take a more human stand towards towards the Papuans than the western Christians did to the native American Indians and Australian aboriginals. Apparently I was wrong. Feelings of superiority over indigenous people and genocide seem not to be the exclusive domain of western Christians.

    Dutch wouldn’t need to leave Indonesia if they were able to make their nest in here like in south africa.

    South-Africa was a different kind of colony like than Indonesia was. It resembles more the situation of the western settlers in the US. The Dutch, German and Hugenot colonists started their own nests called Oranje Vrijstaat and Transvaal to live separately from the indigenous and British, who took control of the Cape. South-Africa never was a part of the Dutch empire like Indonesia was. It became part of the British empire.
    The Dutch never had nests or Vrijstaats in Indonesia, because they never intended to do so. After the Revolution the Dutch and Indo-Europeans left and those who didn’t leave were kicked out by president Soekarno in the late fifties.
    Even if the Dutch would have their own nests they would have been kicked out, that wouldn’t have made any difference at all.

    Our brother moslem’s internal conflict are no different with the western internal conflict like in World’s War 1&2, Christian and Roman Chatholic War and US Civil War, “so what”.

    I never heard of people calling themselves Christian brothers in WW 1 & 2, on the contrary, it had nothing to do with religion.
    Muslims seem to unite when a western person or country says something ugly concerning Muslims and/or Islam. But when it comes to turf fights like those in Iraq, their unity has disappeared like snow in the sun. Then Muslims seem to have no problem to blow their fellow Muslim brothers to Kingdom Come. I would expect different behaviour from Muslim “brothers” who claim that they are the followers of the right path. Especially when are complaining that Westerners are deprived of any moral due to their secular lifestyle.
    In the end it seems they are just as violent and stupid as the westerners.

  27. avatar Cukurungan says:
    March 21st, 2007 at 8:46 am

    Aluang,

    You can say anything about Islam and your mythology about our own values and you claimed that Indonesia Indigenous Values are respect woman whereas Islam doesn’t. But the next question who will buy your stories. For sure I won’t buy your story.

    The women in Islamic values was respected 3 times more than a man, however, we consider a women has different a tasks or a responsibility that it should not the same with a man tasks and responsibility. Therefore God create significantly different in term of mentally and physically between women and man. Therefore , the gender equality issue was mostly brought up by “perawan tua “, of course we should not strictly approach this different.

    Even in the animal world’s, the nature already distinct itself what is the male task and what is the female task. Why you and your equality gender supporters don’t go to Ragunan and make rally there that all animal already violated the gender equality.

    thanks ,
    sokpintarman

  28. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:
    March 21st, 2007 at 9:08 am

    Cukurungan: You have very low self-esteem, hiding behind your Arab overlord’s shadow. Why not for once let the sun shine on your silhouette, and come out like a gentlemen.

    I may have misunderstood you, but do tell me what is your take on wife beating and polygamy. For what I understand, it is Arab’s culture and backed up by the Al-Quran. Commonsense tells me that they are wrong. I am all ears if you can convince me that are ok.

  29. avatar Ihaknt says:
    March 21st, 2007 at 9:49 am

    Cuk, gender issues mostly brought by perawan tua? Where did you get that fact from? You’re really something. Unfortunately something stupid. The more you try to defend yourself or ‘religion’, the more you push both deeper into the whole, and the more it shows how ignorant and uneducated you are. Seriously, learn English, do more research before you write anything, and post long winded comments that make sense. To ALL, as we know, Cuki’s credibility and facts are questionable judging with the embel2 he puts at the end of most of his posts, so his views are rubbish! We can’t learn anything and it’s not even remotely funny.

  30. avatar Dimp says:
    March 21st, 2007 at 10:09 am

    Hi ihaknt, aluang anak bayang,

    Just ignore Cukurungan and his postings. While people with “common sense” tried to better themselves and avoid putting themselves as “animals”, he has managed to show that he has no “common sense” and want to be regarded as animal.

    Just let him be…. be stupid that is.

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