Women Judges

Mar 4th, 2007, in News, by

Women cannot be judges under sharia law, says a senior Egyptian judge.

Yahia Ragheb Daqruri, the president of the Egypt's judges' association, or Judges' Club, says jurist that the appointment of female judges would contradict Islamic sharia law.

He reasoned that it would be unacceptable for women judges to have to deliberate

alone in a room with two or more male judges

and asserted that women judges would inevitably

become pregnant at some point, and that the pregnancy will certainly have an impact on the judicial prestige and on judges' public image.

He is also said to have implied that becoming mothers would adversely affect female judges' ability to handle certain cases:

giving birth can also have an impact on the cases a female judge is dealing with being dealt with correctly.

People present in the court would also be disturbed by the presence of a woman judge, he said. khaleejtimes

His reasoning was based on

the consensus of doctors of law and the principles of Sharia

Article Two of Egyptian Constitution, a 1980 constitutional amendment, says that

the principal source of legislation is the Sharia.

___________________

March 15th 2007.

On the 14th thirty-one new female judges were appointed to the Egyptian bench. Egypt's Supreme Judicial Council chief Mukbil Shakir selected the judges from a pool of state prosecutors who had passed a test for the positions, though it is unclear to which courts the women will be assigned. This marks the first time women have been named to preside over criminal or civil cases in Egypt.

Some feminists complained that only state prosecutors were eligible. jurist


86 Comments on “Women Judges”

  1. avatar Dimp says:

    First of all, the difference between me and Khafi in religious matters might somewhat resembles the difference between a Protestant and a Catholic. I have never ever have the slightest imagination that he should believe in Hadith and Sharia, or in what we (the mainstream Muslims) believed in. Unfortunately, Mohammed Khafi didn’t share my sentiment and always tried to push his views and judged that the believers o Hadith are actually committing Shirk.

    What do you mean by difference between Protestant and Catholic? I am a Catholic but I have no issues with Protestants, so what do you mean by the difference here?

    Secondly, I never ever meant to persuade anyone to accept Sharia. The push for Sharia is an increasing phenomenon in Indonesia, I am just saying that I supported it. What’s wrong with that? A Muslim that supports Sharia is a normal thing. Can anyone blame you for supporting Christianization, for example?

    Again about Christianization, I am not supporting any form of “forcing someone to accept any ideology”, if there is such thing as Christianization (I am assuming by force or trickery) then I for one will not be supporting such atrocity. The same way when one is forcing Sharia to be accepted for everyone.

  2. avatar Arab community says:

    I am with you Hassan. I have nothing against sharia laws, bear in mind, this can not be implemented if Caliphate does not exist.

    Thanks GOD I found this blog, otherwise I would not know that there are so many hatred towards Islam. I made friends with many Christians and some Jews as well as many aliran but they never show it “kebencian” directly on my face.

    I was not quite sure why but one thing for sure that this is exactly what stated in the Quran, “your enemies will never be happy with you until after you follows them – their believes”. And this, “kebencian dari mulut mereka adalah nyata, apalagi yang terselubung di hati mereka”. All these makes me curious to learn more in depth (sungguh – sungguh) about Islam, Insya Allah ……..Kaffah.

  3. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hassan said:

    Mohammed Khafi and Parvita: You guys came from the same camp, of course you support each other’s view. The fact that both of you guys are liberals, well I have nothing more to say about it.

    Well of course I cannot speak for Parvita, but if you mean by liberalism, that which emphasizes , and I quote:

    Individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected., and a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed

    I guess you are correct, because these are all basic rights and freedoms expressed in Al Quran by Allah.

    It is only your Sunnah and Hadith which have eroded these rights and deviated from Allah’s true path which was given to the Ummah by Allah. Al Quran was sent to provide guidance for the Pagan Arabs, and to the rest of mankind to return them to Allah’s Straight path, to free them from the oppression, and intolerance of corrupted teachings. You and your fellow Sunnah and Hadith followers have just lapsed back into the corrupted ways of the previous followers of Allah words.

    Your Choice!

    But I will just remind you of this:

    There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient. 2:256

    As soon as you compel others, as in imposing Sharia, you are breaking one of Allah’s clearest commands, can you now tell me that you are not commiting shirk? As soon as you take other sources for law you are holding up others as equal to Allah.

    Peace

  4. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Hassan wrote:

    First of all, the difference between me and Khafi in religious matters might somewhat resembles the difference between a Protestant and a Catholic.

    There is a huge difference. A difference in Christian ideology won’t get you killed. A difference in Islamic ideology will end in bloodshed. Let me know if any of you need examples.

    The push for Sharia is an increasing phenomenon in Indonesia, I am just saying that I supported it. What’s wrong with that? A Muslim that supports Sharia is a normal thing. Can anyone blame you for supporting Christianization, for example?

    You conveniently forget that Indonesia is not a homongenous society. The Javanese, Madurese, Malays, Bugis, Achenese, etc may be from the same anthropological group and they may accept Islam for unity’s sake, but what about the Dayaks, Timorese and Papuan. The Dayaks are known to reject any form of imported religion. With the Timorese and Papuan, forcing shariah law on them will surely end in bloodshed. Also majority of Indonesian Muslims are Abangan. When you tell them about Islamic shariah law, they will surely nod their head, but when you tell them about stoning and amputation and beating of wives, they will tell you to f**k off.

    ps. I seriously do not know what Mohd. Khafi still call himself a Muslim when he no longer believes in polygamy, amputation and capital punishment for apostasy. His view is considered heretic by strict Islamic standard.

  5. avatar Parvita says:

    Hassan, we are not saying that Hadits is bad. What I am saying is that it is man made. There are some good ones that are parallel to Qur’an, there are some that are opposite of what the Qur’an says. For such a slow learner like me, I would just rather go and learn the Qur’an myself as I believe that it is the only direction from God, which, for me, is alhamdulillah easy to understand already. Therefore, I don’t see the urge to seek from another source which is questionable, which only makes my small brain confuse. However, it is fact that Hadits is manmade. That, I think you agree. Whether you would take it into faith and put that equally as the Qur’an, it is up to you.

  6. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Aluang anak Bayang Said:

    ps. I seriously do not know what Mohd. Khafi still call himself a Muslim when he no longer believes in polygamy, amputation and capital punishment for apostasy.

    Why do I call myself a Muslim? Because that is what God tells me in Al Quran!

    O ye who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Lord, and do good, that haply ye may prosper And strive for Allah with the endeavor which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Ibrahim (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting Friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper. 22:78

    You must remember that I am a Muslim in the broadest sense of the word, I follow what was sent to us of previous scripture, Torah, Injeel, Al Quran, etc. Again as instructed to us in Al Quran and contrary to what many mainstrean Mulsims would have you beleive, Al Quran does not abrogate or nullify the previous scripture, there are some changes given, but these are minor and are mostly related to fasting and food restrictions.

    The word Muslim just means one who has submitted to God, and can be applied equally to those Jews, Christians, Sabians, etc. who follow Gods word, in fact as Allah says in Al Quran “Any who believe in God, believe in the day of Judgement and do good deeds”, not just to people who follow Al Quran, remember according to Al Quran the name Muslims comes from the time of Abraham, well before any revelation of Al Quran.

    Perhaps you would be better off asking the followers of Sunnah and Hadith why they call themselves Muslims?

    Here are some of the verses confirming that Al Quran confirms previous scriptures:

    And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. S. 2:41

    And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir

    And when they were told, ‘Believe in that God has sent down,’ they said, ‘We believe in what was sent down on us’; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what IS with them. Say: ‘Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?’ S. 2:91

    Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel — for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah’s command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers. S. 2:97 Shakir

    And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir

    He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

    And when God took compact with the Prophets: ‘That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what IS with you — you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?’ He said. ‘And do you take My load on you on that condition?’ They said, ‘We do agree.’ God said, ‘Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.’ S. 3:81

    You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what IS with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God’s command is done. S. 4:47

    And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what IS before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; S. 5:48 Shakir

    And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which IS before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly. S. 6:92 Shakir

    This Koran could not have been forged apart from God; but it is a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of the Book, wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being. S. 10:37

    In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe. S. 12:111

    And that We have revealed to thee of the Book is the truth, confirming what IS before it; God is aware of and sees His servants. S. 35:31

    No indeed; but he brought the truth, and confirmed the Envoys. S. 37:37

    Yet before it was the Book of Moses for a model and a mercy; and this is a Book confirming, in Arabic tongue, to warn the evildoers, and good tidings to the good-doers. S. 46:12

    They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which IS before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path: S. 46:30 Shakir

    As to Polygamy, I do in fact accept that polygamy, or more correctly polygyny is stated in Al Quran, however the criteria for such to take place are very strict, and involve a time of war when the numbers of men have been decimated in battle, the inability to be fair to the orphans, and the matter of being equal and just to the wives. In fact, Allah tells us that we cannot, how ever hard we try, be fair to more than one wife, and what possible reason whould we have to be unable to be fair to orphans?

    I absolutely abhore the fact that many men use this religious allowance, which was allowed to help war widows and their children, as a screen for their lusts, hiding their sins behind Gods goodness and understanding.

    Amputation, well if I understand my God to be merciful and fair, amputation seems to be a bit excessive, and only creates more problems as the thief is unable to provide thereafter for his family, if he has one. This was discussed at some depth at a Quranic study group which benefitted from some very learned members, one of them being a professor in Classical Arabic. The verse in Al Quran is:

    And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. 5:38

    We cannot take everything literally especially in a translation from Classical Arabic. An example in English would be if I wanted to travel abroad and arrived at the checkin desk at the airport 10 minutes after it had closed and I asked the checkin staff to let me through, they could say ” I am sorry Mr Khafi, we cannot let you in , rules are rules, our hands are tied”. This phrase does not mean that their hands are literally tied. Another example is “The thief was caught ‘Red Handed’” again this doesn’t mean what it says literally! In the amputation example the original phrase in Arabic we came to realise meant to prevent them from the same thing again, or to remove the opportunity for theft, or to improve their conditions, such that they could earn a living without stealing.

    Capital Punishment for Apostacy?, not in Al Quran, not Islamic. Al Quran clearly states ” Let there be no compulsion in religion”

    His view is considered heretic by strict Islamic standard.

    By the strict Islamic standard of Sunnah and Hadith or the strict Islamic Standard of Allah’s Islam, Al Quran?

    Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbour any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. 6:114-115

    Peace

  7. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Hassan, focus bro. Where’s the good example of sharia implementation on women that I was asking for? Don’t worry about MK and Parvita. The discussion is about women’s rights being limited under sharia, not MK’s and Parvita’s being different ‘kind’ of Muslims, it’s their right as much as yours to believe what you belive in. Thanks again for your help.

  8. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Hassan wrote:

    Have you studied the topic of Sharia by opening the Quran and Hadith? Or did you simply follow the ongoing stereotype about Sharia? I suspect it’s the latter.

    Maybe she did open the books and was alarmed by one or all of these verses:
    Men are protectors and maintainers of women; women must be devoutly obedient, if not then beat them…4:34
    God created us from a single person and made mate of like nature; pregnancy is a light burden to women…7:189
    Revelations are sent to men only”¦12:109
    Only men are chosen by God to be His messengers”¦16:43
    Men are superior in the worshipping of God “¦24:37
    Women witness is half of men…2:282
    Majority of women are in hell…( Shahih Bukhari 1.6.301)
    Women, slaves and camels are same; must seek Allah’s refuge from all these…(Sunaan Abu Dawud 11.2155)
    A prayer is annulled by a passing woman, dog and a monkey…( Shahih Bukhari 1.9.490)
    Menstruation is a disease…2:222
    Four free women wives (some say nine) at a time and any number of slave girls are permitted…4:3 I like this one. 🙂

    It looks like they were written by a chauvinistic male-dominated society. Hassan, probably you have a better interpretation for Ihaknt. Hope she don’t go around and tell her Muslimah sisters. We better do it quick before other intelligent women discover the verses and leave Islam.

    .

  9. avatar Nelson says:

    What happens in Stoning?

    Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. Maybe this is you hassan.

    http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

  10. avatar Nelson says:

    To reinforce Ihaknt’s stance, Islam and women don’t mix.

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/parvin.htm

  11. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Hey Nelson, don’t get me wrong. The Islam I know is very different. But it is very sad to see what’s going on now and have people judge the whole religion by stupid actions they see of the followers. But thanks for your support.

    I just don’t agree with Sharia. I seriously believe that Sharia was started by men to suit their needs and desire and to justify their actions, so they still could commit sins but remain ‘holy’. Sharia to me is a big bunch of stinking, fly infested, elephant sh*t that’s having food poisoning. It’s not bullsh*t, it’s bigger sh*t than that, hence the sick elephant. But Mr. Hassan really believes it’s a good thing. But so far, sharia-related-ly, I have never seen or heard anything good comes from it for women. What I see is that women are supressed under this so-called rules. So that’s why I need his help to make me see it from a different angle that it does good for women. I don’t want to see Quran related verses as have been provided, stating women positions in Islam, etc, I know that already. I think men created sharia so women wouldn’t become educated and become like me, able to think for myself, stand up for myself, and in return reject these rules. But I just want to see a tangible example where women under sharia flourish to become the human beings they should. I guess it doesn’t really exist as Hassan or anyone still hasn’t provided me with the example.

  12. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Ihaknt,

    Sharia, doesn’t just oppress women it oppresses everybody apart from the powerholders, why do you think they use the death penalty for apostates to keep control of anybody who rejects Sharia? So much for “let there be no compulsion in religion”.
    As you have suggested, it is control of the uneducated and/or brainwashed masses, and used as a tool to keep them that way! Hassan will never come back to you with example of how Sharia helps and supports women because those examples don’t exist, Hassan, 1ndra, Cuk and the others on here who are supporters of a Sharia State, always back off and never answer any really challenging questions like that!

    Peace

  13. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Thanks Khafi, but unlike them, me don’t want to back off. And yes I know the example doesn’t exist, and you are right they stay quiet when challenged, but I like any opportunity to nag (a sheer joy and pleasure of being a woman, nag until you get what you want).

  14. avatar Parvita says:

    Good luck, Ihaknt.

    I suggest you to browse and check it out yourself if it is so important for your faith. And also maybe read the Qur’an so that you have some basis in understanding why some of the verses in the hadits doesn’t jive with the Qur’an. And probably you will have your own perspective and opinion about Islam. An opinion and faith based on what you find out for yourself, not what is being fed by other people. I’m sure it will be a more joy and satisfying discovering by yourself what the truth is and getting enlightened on your own by learning by yourself. And you might probably share what you find out. And may finally you can find peace and let others with different opinion live themselves as long as they don’t bother the others.

    Indonesians don’t like to read. It is not a habit. Indonesians tend to listen to what people say and either challenge or keep quiet.. Indonesians do not have the mentality to be a scientist, a thinker, let alone a philosopher. If there are, they are so few of them. Most Indonesians like to be a loud politician and critics, but not researchers. I hope you are not one of them.

    It is surprising, coming for a person that seems to have strong feeling against sharia that you believe to suppress women, you gave a statement that it is a women’s trade mark to nag.

    I hate nagging children, no matter a boy or a girl. Annoying.

  15. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Hello, I am with you about nagging children, hence I don’t have any. I don’t know if you are single or not, but living with a man it just happens naturally, because men are what they are, they hardly listen, especially behind that newspaper. Don’t tell me that you not once have nagged? 😉 Good luck if you’re in a relationship, lucky boyfriend you have.

    I said the Islam I know is different, it’s a kind belief to any of its follower, man or woman. As for the research. I have done it and can’t find any good example so far. So far what I have found from the research is that women are oppressed. I read a lot of books about women’s welfare in Islam, and those who live under this sharia are not treated as human, and yet from the same places only 2 decades ago, these women’s grandmothers wore skirts, did their hair, and looked beautiful. That’s why, as people like Hassan who are very pro-sharia, so I thought maybe his research are from different sources. No harm in that right? And I am sure he knows something more that I don’t. And to leave people in peace as you said? I do, but at the same time, I believe in learning differences, I get curious about thing and like to get it from all sorts of sources, even more if one view is very different to mine. I think Hassan should be happy with the chance of discussing this, because at least I am open for suggestions and ideas from the opposition. Is it ok P?

    Off topic, I love your blog and the section on depression gives me a different perspective and f*ck, I know it’s not an easy thing. Thank you. You’re lucky to be able to write that well, you should think to write a book, never know you may make a difference.

  16. avatar Parvita says:

    Hi Ihaknt,

    I can’t remember the last time I nagged, because I tend to get what I must have by myself my own way! I’m even worse, it’s my way or no way, that’s why where I am at the moment: single and happy with my dogs :).

    I said the Islam I know is different, it’s a kind belief to any of its follower, man or woman. As for the research. I have done it and can’t find any good example so far.

    Good point. Sometimes moslem is practised by non moslems, and sometimes by atheists! I think it is the same with other religions: religions get corrupted.

    Do you subscribe “Jakarta Post”? On the Tuesday paper, on opinion, there is a good article by Julia Hadisurya on househusband, instead of housewife. You have to try and read it, it is about the husband doing the conventional wive’s chores, while the women, them making more money, or pursuing their career. They don’t have ultra-modern background, at one case the husband is from West Sumatra, and work in the paddy fields. They put the family interest in the front. One of them even said something like, “to sharpen your intelligence is embracing God’s gift, and it is the duty of men and women”, and quoted the Qur’an. You should read the article, it is enlightning. I wonder if it is in the internet.

    Think about it. Maybe to some followers of the hadits, this is against the teaching, moreover, agains the culture. That shows how Qur’an and hadits may contradict. Did the guyst quote hadits? They quoted the teaching from the Qur’an. If it is ok by Qur’an, that is enough. No need to ask for anything else. Islam is surrender. Surrender to Allah. Teachings of Islam is in the Qur’an. Follow it, it is good news. Surrender to the teachings. No more question needed.

    Back to the judge thing, it is a sin if you have talent and you don’t use it for the benefit of the people, men or women. Moslems must share, in which I understand, is zakat. Share. It is not only about 2.5% of your money. It is about sharing. Giving. God gave you rizki for free. You have to give something to the mankind as well. Or else, you are those that doesn’t know how to enjoy the gift from Allah.

    Nice to know you visited my blog! I know there are lots of people sufferring (or sufferred) as I do (or did), who denies their situation. I do really hope the blog can helps others.

  17. avatar Ihaknt says:

    I do read her articles on TJP every Wednesday (I read it online), I love her style and guts. Her name is actually Julia Suryakusuma. I write to her sometimes whenever she writes something that moves me or makes me laugh. I love Wednesday because of her. She rocks.

    This morning I saw on apakabar superkoran another female writer (Laksmi) wrote something that included her article titled “Pak boleh enggak aku pake jilbab” Julia’s piece in it hits every f88king notes. http://www.apakabar.ws/ Read it. It’s brilliant!

  18. avatar Parvita says:

    Yup, Julia Suryakusuma, that’s her. Yup, I just read it. I like her as well.

  19. avatar Mizan says:

    Ihaknt, please refrain from giving any comments on religious issues if you yourself are not familiar with the law. Dimp, you said that countries that practice Islam have not became better themselves, and you gave the example of Acheh. Well…it all depends on how you want to interpret ‘better’ If you want interpret it in a very secular way, of course they have not become better. I actually think that you have made a very simplistic statement about the whole issue. Putting one example from Acheh is simply insufficient. Do go back and do your homework dear.

  20. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Oi Mizan, enlighten me and familiarise me with the law then! If you are the expert then it’s your responsibility to educate others, right?

    Mizan (and people who are similar to you), what I find from this forum is that people like you tell me that I don’t know the law bla di bla, but then they/you don’t even try to explain what this law is all about. So, you shouldn’t be surprised if I, and may others in here, don’t find the law useful at all and somehow outdated, barbaric and useless. If you are pro-it then give us the understanding, the goodness of it. It just seems to me people like you don’t really know what it is anyway. When I ask about what’s so good about this law, no one can answer me. So maybe you can start?

  21. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    ….. please refrain from giving any comments on religious issues if you yourself are not familiar with the law. ….. I actually think that you have made a very simplistic statement about the whole issue. Do go back and do your homework dear.

    Dear Mizan, I am glad to find a brother who is confident with Islamic law. I have done my homework, but still a poor lost lamb. Tales of flying horse or splitting of moon don’t worry me, I am more concerned with moral issues. One of this is verse 2:230.

    Example, you and your wife divorced. A few years later, you chanced on her somewhere. Both of you are still singles and the sparks are there, and the two of you decided to give your marriage another try. But alas! your book of guidance said it is haram. Anything haram cannot be made halal as what Allah said cannot be ignored. To make her halal again, she had to slept with another stranger for one night and then be divorced. What if sperm were deposited into her in this one-night halal-certifying period? Tell me, being a pious moslem with high moral value like your good self, would you allow someone to be in bed with your wife-to-be?

    Another learned moslem said there is no copulation involved. Brother Cuk is more cognizant with men’s sexual desire, which prompt me to remind him of verse 2:223 – Your wives are a tilth for you to be cultivated in any way desired. If your wife-to-be’s temporary husband utilized that verse, isn’t it valid to infer a child might be borne out of this one-night affaire? Boy, this time he was angry accusing me of being a typical Qu’ran basher and asking question that was not connected. Now he is suggesting that IM is islamophobic.

    Dear Mizan, with your well-informed knowledge, tell me if asking about the baby is invalid? Remember, when there is a gapple between 2 people, and one held a knife, isn’t it valid to ask about blood?

    Waiting for your reply,
    Lost Lamb

  22. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Aluang anak Bayang,

    You seem a little confused about this matter, if you don’t mind I will try and offer an explanation.

    First off, you are confusing Allah’s Law, Al Quran, with human law, Sunnah and Hadith.

    The verse you need clarification on is 2:230, this states that if you have divorced your wife irrevocably then you are not allowed to marry her again, until she has been married to another man. Irrevocable divorce means divorce for a third time, this is clarified in the preceding verse 2:229. It seems clear to me that if a couple have already divorced three times that there is something fundamentally wrong in their relationship, and the instructions for them to not get married again is only one of common sense. Would you want to remarry a person from whom you had already divorced three times? Even if you and that person were madly in love, would it be fair on either you or your families to allow such a relationship after a history of three divorces?

    As to the one night marriage or as you put it sleeping with a stranger, this is from Hadith and once again highlights the fact that Hadith are manmade nonsense. Marriage in Al Quran is a sacred thing, a contract to care for and respect somebody, to build strong families, it is despicable to use this blessing as a means of breaking Allah’s Law.

    Just to clarify another point, marriage at the time of The Prophet was a social contract, not the thing which we now associate with the word, marriage could be contracted with widowed women to afford them shelter and support for their orphaned children, it was not just about sex and making babies, this point is highlighted in the following verse:

    O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon. But content them and release them handsomely. 33:49

    The verse above also gives us a clue to your question about any child as a result of the illegal one night marriage which you asked about, it says “then there is no period that ye should reckon”, well what does that mean? It means that if a marriage has taken place and the marriage has been consumated, or in other words the couple have had sex, and then they want to divorce, they have to wait a period of 3 menstrual cycles to ensure that there are no offspring from the sexual relationship.

    “And the divorced women (after the pronouncement of the divorce) must wait for three monthly courses… and their husbands are fully entitled to take them back (as their wives) during this waiting period, if they desire reconciliation.” 2:228

    Another indication of the manmade Hadith which contradict Al Quran.

    Peace

  23. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Mas Khafi, this will be my 3rd attempt to respond to your post. It was accidentally erased when I closed the site. The 2nd time around, there was a blackout and I lost the data again. I will write a shorter version as I am in a hurry. I wonder if this is a warning for an all-mighty deity. Patung should have insert a ‘save’ button so this peeping deity can stop harrassing me.

    Dear Mas, you need to make up your mind with your religion – with or without hadith. With hadith, you have to accept verse 2:230. Without, you are either a shiite or a nonconformist. As long as you stayed a moslem, your life is a russian roulette. With each and every group claiming to have the correct interpretation whilst calling for death to heretic, your life depend on which moslem group you bump into. Surely Allah has to admit to the mess He had caused as He is all-knowing and had forsee this. Non-moslems are doing better than us. They lived peaceful lives, get wealthy and can afford to be benevolent, while we, the pengrobak sampah and the pengamen are waiting for divine intervention. Instead we get tsunami and earthquake for not being islamic enough.

    The reality is that every nation in the world is losing their patience with moslem. Moslem countries are the most backward and militarily inferior to non-moslem countries. Israel alone can easily wipe out the whole of the gulf countries. Every single European countries can take on all gulf countries single-handedly. All wars fought between Pakistan and India were won by the Indians. The US can wipe out the whole moslem population if they don’t care about human rights. China is the only country who can handle islamic terrorism because she doesn’t care about human rights. Every islamic countries knew that it will be sayonara to their religion if China flinched.

    Saying that the hadith had corrupted the unblemished Qu’ran is not good enough. If Allah is all-knowing, He should have known this is happening. His beloved and loyal creatures get killed for His mistake. Whether the marriage can be irrevocably or un-irrevocably annulled, verse 2:230 has no virtue in it. While the men virtually go unpunished, the women and children have to go through the humiliation. Instead, it is creating more divorce problem, now that the one-night-husband is a divorcee. The next generation will look down on their mother, and the cycle goes on. We should be encouraging stronger marriage bond for the sake of the children.

    Regards.

  24. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Aluang anak Bayang,

    I agree with nearly everything you said regarding the position of Islam in the world, but this is not caused by adhering to Al Quran, it is rather a result of following manmade fabrications, which have destroyed the simplicity and goodness of Gods original teachings, the same thing has happened every time God has sent us instructions! The Jews given Torah follow Talmud, the Christians given Injeel follow The Gospels and Muslins given Al Quran follow Sunnah and Hadith, however to say that somebody who adheres to Al Quran without the corruption of Hadith and Sunnah is a nonconformist or shiite, is rather missing the point! All the sects which deviate from the Word of God are the nonconformists, not those who try to follow Gods Word.

    To say that God could have prevented it is true, but he allowed the Jews and the Christian to deviate from his word, why should he make any special allowances for those given Al Quran?

    This life is a test, it matters not what religion we profess, what is important is that we follow Gods commandments to be better people, more tolerant, caring, loving, more generous in our support of those less fortunate than ourselves, more interested in developing education and learning, I cannot agree with you that the rules for divorce are wrong, as I said in my earlier post, if you have already divorced somebody three times, do you really think that there is a chance for another marriage to work? This is no way to make stronger marriage bonds and protect the children.

    The humiliation which you talk about is in your head, it is a result of our culture and not a product of divorce itself. Divorce is simply a mechanism to release either partner from a relationship which is not working, there is no shame to be attached to that other than what we ourselves attach to it.

    As I said the one night marriage is a Hadith fabrication it is not a command from God, it is simply a manmade excuse to circumvent the rules given to us from God.

    Your statement about Russian Roulette is very apt, but the murder of apostates is another Hadith fabrication, it is nowhere to be found in Al Quran. Al Quran quite clearly states that there should be no compulsion in religion.

    Peace

  25. avatar Sputjam says:

    Everyone, men and women alike, should be given equal opportunity to advance themselves, and be treated with due respect.

    There is no such thing as sharia law. I have not come across this term in the koran. If you have proof that there is, then show the evidence.

    Accordng to religious text, even Moses killed a man. And God forgave him. But God will not forgive idol worshippers. Mecca presently is the largest idol worshipping centre in the world.

    So do not take screwed up idol worshipping judge from egypt and his fellow believers seriously. They have abandoned the messages in the holy book and are blind as a bat in matters pertaining to faith.

  26. avatar tikaperwita says:

    i dont think that sharia is not useful. If sharia is not useful, why many western countries follow the Islamic banking system? Islamic banks available in many countries although most of their population is not a moslem.

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