Islam and Chinese

Mar 8th, 2007, in News, by

The distance between Indonesian Chinese people and Islam.

Julia Suryakusuma wrote in the Jakarta Post recently:

The Chinese in Indonesia are usually Buddhist, Christian or Confucian. In fact, the actual number of Muslim Chinese is not known, but there are not many.

And then:

The Religious Affairs Ministry has in the past made strenuous efforts to squelch academic research on the Chinese contribution to Islam in Indonesia. This is because for most Indonesians the link seems intuitively absurd and improbable: "Chineseness" and "Islam" are assumed to be totally paradoxical stereotypes or "identity concepts".

Cheng Ho
Cheng Ho, 1371-1433.

She then notes that the role of the Chinese in spreading Islam in Indonesia was in fact considerable, and that it was a two-fold matter. First there were actual Chinese Muslims, such as the relatively famous mariner Admiral Cheng Ho, or Zheng He, who established Chinese Muslim (Hanafi) communities in Palembang, San Fa (West Kalimantan), and along the northern coast of Java, especially at Semarang. Secondly, and more indirectly, it was the Chinese who developed the ports, city life and supply networks that attracted Muslim (non-Chinese) traders to Indonesia, and this facilitated the spread of Islam by opening up the Indonesian states to Islamic trading, and then missionary, networks.

What's more, as John Sidel in Riots, Pogroms, Jihad says, the first waves of Chinese migrants to Indonesia in the 15th & 16th century soon assimilated into Indonesian society, (Cheng Ho was one who specifically encouraged this), and as with the Baba Chinese of Malaya, Chinese mestizos in the Philippines, and Sino-Thai lukjin in Siam, locally born Chinese in Indonesia soon took up most of the linguistic, cultural, and religious forms of the society where they found themselves.

Yet today few Chinese are Muslims, many still speak a dialect of Chinese, and many still maintain Chinese cultural traditions, and further, many are loathe to consider themselves Javanese or Sundanese, etc. Indonesian nationalists will be pleased to hear that the Dutch are to "blame" for this.

Chinese Temple
Old loyalties.

One feature of Dutch society which has often stood out, even to the Netherlands' neighbours, was the strict separation in the past between the Catholic and Reformed communities. In many ways Catholics and Protestants in Holland inhabitated separate worlds, with their own schools, clubs, sporting teams, etc, the two worlds often barely meeting.

When the Dutch took control of the East Indies they tended to recreate the system they were familiar with in some respects, and their policies resulted in something like a caste or apartheid system developing in the colonies, not totally unlike what they were used to at home, says Sidel.

Chinese were barred from entry to the local aristocracy, (whereas in the past Javanese upper class men had often taken a Chinese wife), they were ghettoized, forced to live in particular areas of a town, their inter-city movement was restricted and regulated, they had special legal codes and administrative practices imposed on them, all different from that which applied to the "native" population.

These policies hardened ethnic boundaries, set up walls between the Chinese and Javanese, and largely prevented Chinese from assimilating and, for example, adopting the religion of the majority of the people, Islam.

Further, over time, as Dutch power grew and the Javanese aristocracy became ever more subjugated, the attractiveness for Chinese in assimilating declined, and the economic benefits of being a distinct, separate class, increased.

Towards the end of Dutch rule a new wave of immigrants, this time many non-Hokkien speakers, people who saw no great need to assimilate, and combined with the rise of Chinese nationalism, made the established trend for separateness stronger. Chinese associations were formed, schools, chambers of commerce, and the Dutch became much more accommodating.

After independence the policies of both the Sukarno and Suharto regimes tended to reinforce, often severely, the division between the ethnic groups. It is only recently, since the presidency of Gus Dur, that attempts have been made to break down the barriers built up over hundreds of years.


107 Comments on “Islam and Chinese”

  1. avatar Andrew says:

    Yet today few Chinese are Muslims, many still speak a dialect of Chinese, and many still maintain Chinese cultural traditions

    To be honest I don’t see anything wrong with any of the above. Anyone can embrace any religion he/she consider fit for him/her, speak any language he/she wants to speak in, and maintain their cultural traditions.

    We will start of a new conflict the moment we start to poke around and judge others.

  2. avatar spew-it-all says:

    Just to add some information on the relationship between Chinese and Islam. A historian, Jean Gelman Taylor, wrote in her book, Indonesia: Peoples and Histories, that in Banten, Chinese people were mostly working as merchants, artisan, peddlers, labour and so on. She wrote, “Chinese also designed and built the principal mosque, which was unique in Java’s mosque architecture because of its five-tiered roof with Chinese-style curving tiles and stone prayer tower”. (p.129)

  3. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Andrew, imagine if the world was in uniform from one country to another, how boring. The good thing is that we wouldn’t need to spend money to travel, because there wouldn’t be anything interesting to see.

  4. avatar Sputjam says:

    I cannot see any difference between a group of people who worship stones in mecca and another who worship statues of deities in temples. Only difference is that the chinese did not impose their pagan ways onto others.

    Peace!

  5. avatar Magy says:

    Well, Muslim or not, still one interesting aspect of this is that the people of Indonesia and the Philipinnes, except New Guinea/Kalimantan, are descendants from South China. In fact South China people and Taiwan, Indonesia and the Philipinnes are more alike than South China people are with people from North China. The fact is that they are in many ways, the same people genetically.

    Just like Australians descend from Europeans, most Indonesians descend from South China. Still this “tense” relationsship. Anyone interested in reflecting upon this?

  6. avatar Hassan says:

    Sputjam: Ah, the wise man strikes again, “a group of people who worship stones in mecca”. You should reconsider your extremely scientific conclusion, as Muslims never ever worship the stones of Ka’ba or Hajar Aswad.

    Your ever so intellectual perception seemed to miss the fact that Muslims only pray in the direction of Ka’ba, and not worship it. That gave me the impression that you do not understand how Muslims are, or whether you’re a Muslim at all, because you failed to grasp such a basic understanding.

    Oh let me guess, the rest of the world are pagans, and you’re the one and only honest believer of the One True God, right??

  7. avatar 1ndra says:

    Sputjam : Peace? How could you said that, just said “Hey you’re a pagan Muslim who worships a black dead stone” in front of other Muslims and then say “Peace” then they’ll give you peaceful rest. I wonder if he’s Khafi’s servant who always says Peace after making provocation. 🙂

  8. avatar Yunir says:

    I think we need to make a clear distinction between religion & race.

    Islam is not a race. It is a religion that is not bounded to any particular racial/ethnic group.

    Chinese on the other hand, is a race whose people are not bounded to practice any particular religion/belief.

  9. avatar Magy says:

    It’s not primarily a question about race. It’s more an observation that the links between the people in south asia, genetically, georaphically, socially, culturally, lingustically, historically, etc. are extremely strong. It is often focused on religion only and that if two persons don’t believe in the same religion they are like from different planets. Just ONE perspective, the religious, is focused upon.

    People tend to forget that there are no such thing as a unified Islamic faith. Just as there are protestants, Catholics, Jews, etc. Islam is also fragmented.

    The division between different religious groups in Iraq is proof enough.

    My point is, even though Chinese are not Muslims, they have far more in common with Indonesians, than a person from the middle east, even though they “officially” have the same religion.

    But why is this so sensitive?

  10. avatar Andrew says:

    I don’t even understand why this is even an issue.

  11. avatar Robert says:

    The distance between Indonesian Chinese people and Islam.

    Strange subtitle. The word distance sounds a bit negative here. That most Chinese are Non-Muslim, is that considered a problem then?

    It is only recently, since the presidency of Gus Dur, that attempts have been made to break down the barriers built up over hundreds of years.

    In what way is this taking shape then? When has the goal (tearing down the walls) been reached?

  12. avatar Sputjam says:

    Yunir says islam is a religion.
    Koran says, islam is a deen – a system/order amd some say “way”. It is not a way of life, but God’s way.
    To Indra, I am merely giving warnings as indicated in the Koran, in order that you may come to your senses. Not provoking as you mentioned.
    To Hassan, why would you want to pray in the direction of Kaabah when God has already mentioned that he is omnipresent (everywhere) and omniscient (full of knowledge and awareness) and how come Jesus and Moses never did the pilgrimage. All you need to do is call to Him.
    Use your common sense brothers! For the punishment for those who worship things other than God, is the fire of hell – forever. This warning is written all over the koran, if you bother to read.

  13. avatar Janma says:

    I always thought that Muslims worshipped the kaaba, if not why do they kiss it and circumnambulate it?
    Apart from that, the fires of hell!? Oh I am so scared! Quick get me a prayer rug so I may escape that certain fate!
    Sounds like something I tell my kids in order to get them to follow what I say. “DO it or scary eyes will GET YOU!” Pleeeeaze!

  14. avatar Sputjam says:

    Janma, you are correct that they worship the stone embedded in the kaabah. But they cannot figure as to why they are doing it.
    For Mohamed has failed to convert pagan stone worshipping Arabs in mecca.
    as for the fire of hell, whether believe it or not, that will come after your life ends in this world. For you cannot escape God.
    Only time God’s remembrance come into the picture is when you are in dire straits, at the moment of anguish, even for those in doubt.
    So observe the workings of the heavens and the earth. And do good deeds. and have faith in God. For these words have been ignored by mankind.
    The place for those who have faith in God and do good deeds is heaven, where he will dwell forever.

  15. avatar Madesh says:

    Why should Indonesia Muslim face to Kaabah (west) when praying?
    As we all know that our globe is round. So whatever you face to you can come to the same point.

    Anyone can tell me why?

  16. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Sputjam, the fire of hell unfortunately happened to the Bali bombing victims and survivors before they died.

  17. avatar Sputjam says:

    The Bali victims were unfortunates. So were the passenggers of ferries and airplane tragedies recently.
    But my point is that humans have the tendency to worship silly things. Christians worship a man, apart from beleiving in God, Muslims worship stones in Mecca, apart from believing in God, Buddhist worship another man who never did claim to be God. Other Chinese worship deities and ancestors and give offerings which they themselves can see nothing is consumed.
    Worshipping of things apart from God is wrong. come to your common sense. And serve the only God.
    Muslims worship towards the direction of mecca thingking that the world was flat. But logic dictates that if you worship facing west towards the compass direction of mecca, you are actually facing outer space if you reside in Indonesia.
    Satan makes all these worship pleasing to us. Their job is to lead mankind astray. How many silly wars and terrorist bombings were done under the name of religion. And some used God’s name to justify their evil deeds, when God clearly did not order them to do these. In the next life, these evil doers and their leader will blame each other for their acts.
    For the Muslims, study the koran. You will realise your folly in being mislead by pagan Arabs. (There are now numerous translated version against the official ones that promote pagan rituals on the internet).
    Cheers!

  18. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Yeah I know that Sputjam, I agree with you. Hence, I am thinking of creating my own cult/religion and rake money out of these easily-manipulated sheep who can’t think for themselves. Just like that dude who started Scientologist.

  19. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Chinese will never be Muslim. Their civilisation was far more advance with great thinkers like Confucius and Lao Tze, long before Allah revealed the Al-Quran to Mohammad (saw) in some far away unknown desert. They are not a religious zealot lots. Chinese histories had not one single war fought in the name of any God. The relationship with their own creator is like a parent to a child. All the Chinese have to do is to offer roasted pork and birds, teas, joss sticks and incenses to keep God happy in return for lasting peace, prosperity, etc. Wars are fought discreetly and under the nose of their God. It is unimaginable that a Chinese would be religiously indoctrinated, kill a kaffir and shout ‘Allahu akhbar’

    Priority for any Chinese family is health first, prosperity for future descendants, food and money. Religion may not even be on the list. Hence with this conception built in their mind, they are most successful economically wherever they go.

    Even if a Chinese is Muslim, he will not be a true Muslim. There is no way you can get a Chinese to bow toward Mecca 5 times a day. It is inconceivable for a mighty middle kingdom of the world to be Arabanised, and for Chinese to lose their ancestry names and change to Arabic names. Filial piety is the foremost virtue with any Chinese, without it, he is a zombie. Look at the way the Chinese manages their country. China is the only country that knows how to control religious zealots. No hanky panky. Khasmir is divided into Pakistan, India and China. Pakistan and India are having trouble containing bomb blasts daily. China’s side of Khasmir is ever peaceful. A single bomb blast by Muslim jihadis in China will be ‘bye bye Islam’ forever in China.

  20. avatar Hassan says:

    Sputjam: You said,

    “Janma, you are correct that they worship the stone embedded in the kaabah.”

    Here we go again with the same nonsense. How can you judge your supposed fellow Muslims if you don’t even know what you’re talking about? Muslims never ever worships the stones of Ka’ba! Some of my non-Muslim friends had gotten that false impression, but none of my Muslim friends ever got any impression remotely resembling what you said.

    That made me wonder if you are a Muslim at all, whether you even have any sort of contact with a Muslim before, or indeed whether you know what you’re talking about.

    “Muslims worship towards the direction of mecca thinking that the world was flat.”

    OK, wise man, how about this: Allah SWT commanded us to face the direction of Mecca in our prayers, as mentioned in Quran 2:144 “We see the turning of thy (Muhammad) face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.”

    How you seemed to miss that fact (or verse), is completely beyond me. May I ask what sect of Islam you embraced? Because whatever it is, the teachings are quite unfamiliar and can hardly be considered as the view of the Muslim majority.

    “God has already mentioned that he is omnipresent (everywhere) and omniscient (full of knowledge and awareness).”

    The omniscient part is quite true, as Allah SWT mentioned in the Quran. But the omnipresent part, I had failed to find it in the Quran. The Quran mentioned that Allah SWT resides in His Throne (Arasy), stated in Quran 2:115, “And to Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn yourselves or your faces there is the Face of Allah (and He is High above, over His Throne). Surely! Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures needs, All-Knowing.”

    Are you sure you have read the Quran? Because you sounded Christian-ish (with their God’s omnipresence belief), and you sounded like some one who mixes two different teachings into one, but without the proper knowledge of either one of the teachings.

    Madesh:

    “Why should Indonesia Muslim face to Kaabah (west) when praying?”

    Facing Ka’ba is merely an act of uniformity and unity, so that every Muslim in the world will face the in same direction when praying. Whatever their race, language, or country which they live in, all Muslims will face the same direction when they pray. It’s like giving Muslims a universal identity. Plus, it’s also a commandment in the Quran, hence Muslims must follow it.

    Aluang anak Bayang: Good luck and please endulge in your ethno-centricism, have fun!

  21. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Looks who is ethno-centred. The Chinese approach are pragmatic, and I see no wrong in trying to adopt some of their view in life. If Allah is ever merciful, He will allow us to improve ourselves.

    You are too narrow minded and bogged down with religious idealogy. To you, anything that comes out of the Al-Quran is true, just because you are a Muslim. What if you are born into a Christian or Hindu family? I bet you will be defending these religions to death. God gave us an organ called ‘the brain’. Try using it.

    I do not see any beauty in the Al-Quran with flogging and amputation in public, polygamy, Nikah Mut’ah, etc. I find that Muslim can justify almost anything – rape, amputation, polygamy as long as they are written in the Al-Quran. If I am a self centred male, I have no complaint with being a Muslim. I can have multiple wives and plenty of free sex. Speaking of Nikah Mut’ah, there are so many single mothers ending up in brothels to make end meet after this Allah-sanctioned prostitution contract expired. Oh, maybe you don’t know about this, for once try to come out of your comfort zone and mingle with the local populace. My heart aches everytime I see my own people in adject poverty, and each time they blamed themselves for not repenting enough. What a merciful God!

    Get real. If you love Indonesia and try to improve the living standard of the common people, you have to wake up from your long religious fantasy. Look around yourselves and find out why we are lagging so far behind. My brother, Indonesia is not a poor country, it is very badly mismanaged.

  22. avatar Sputjam says:

    Hassan is merely following the religion of his community without questioning the reason.
    Think brothers! What has going around stones, throwing stones at stones, and running between stones got to do with serving God, except that you have been misled to commiting this ritual. Everyone except the Muslims can see this. That is because God has veiled the Muslims heart to stone and turned them blind and made them arrogant into thingking that they are doing the correct thing.
    Similarly, the Christians. They are worshipping to a man created by God. All other people can see this, but not the Christians.

    Certain translations of Koran were corrupted to promote worshipping of stones as stated below. Prophet Muhamad’s enemies were stone worshipping Arab tribes who never received God’s guidance before. Therefore Abraham could not have been there in Mecca a long time ago.
    Hassan translation :-
    2:115, “And to Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn yourselves or your faces there is the Face of Allah (and He is High above, over His Throne). Surely! Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures needs, All-Knowing.”

    can also be translated as :-

    2:115 And to God belongs the East and the West – therefore wherever you are – God is right in front of you. Definitely God is omnipresent – all-knowing.

    So please do not put words which do not exist in the Koran.

    Hassan translation :-
    2:144 “We see the turning of thy (Muhammad) face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.”

    Maybe this is what you mean :-

    2:144 Surely We see you twirling your focus about the sky. Hence We turn you to a direction that pleases you. Therefore turn your focus of attention towards the sanctioned submissions. And wherever you may be – thus turn your focus of attention towards it. And surely those who were given the Book know for certain – that, indeed it is the truth from their Lord. And God never failed to notice from whatever their deeds.

    It is up to the individual which translation to believe. But if you are sincere, God will guide you, if He wish.

    You may asked, what is the sanctioned submission. It is submitting to God’s commandments such as the ones below :-

    “Say: ‘come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:

    that you should not set-up anything with Him. (This is a clear message not to worship anything else)

    And be kind to your parents;

    and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;

    and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;

    and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend’.

    ‘And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;

    and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.

    And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;

    and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember’.

    And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous.” (6:151-153)

    There are other commandments. All inscribed in the Koran if you bother to study the book.
    Those who ignore the commandments, then you are considered wicked.
    Heaven are for those who have faith in God and do good deeds.
    Heaven are not for those who waste their time worshipping as many times as possible. It is all there in the Koran.
    God does not forgive those who indulge in pagan worship.

    Confucianism and God’s commandments in the Koran uphold good moral order and no pagan ritual. These are some similarities between chinese culture and proper Muslims.

  23. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Dear Sputjam,

    Religions are supposed to enhance the cultural heritage of a civilisation, not destroy it. Hinduism and Buddhism came and go, enriching our tradition and leaving behind memories of our great Sri Wijaya and Majapahit empires. Even before Buddhism and Hinduism, we were included as one of the great ancient civilisations. The other at that time were the Chinese, Indian and Persian. Arabia did not even rate a mention.

    I am not opposed to any religion as long as it doesn’t impose their belief on others. I was dumbfounded as to why Hassan conveniently forget our great civilisation in favour of some uncultured nomads from a faraway desert where the norm of their society were to plunder and rape.

    I admired the Chinese race for their pragmatic approach to life which make them so successful, the Westerners for their free thinking and critical analysis abilities which make them so advanced. Everyone is moving forward, yet Hassan is still trapped in his Arabian fairy tale, looking for secret codes or signs in his Arabian story book, and preparing for his Al Mahdi to appear. Gee, with people like him, no wonder Indonesia is lagging behind.

  24. avatar Sputjam says:

    Unfortunately most Muslim are like Hassan. They have abandoned God’s messages and scriptures and embrace man made rules and recreated a pagan religion misusing the name islam.

  25. avatar Arema says:

    Hi Aluang,
    Thanks for your comments about the Chinese. I agree with you on all of your points about the Chinese.

    Hi Sputjam,

    Similarly, the Christians. They are worshipping to a man created by God. All other people can see this, but not the Christians.

    Jesus is a man, that’s true. But He is also God. I suggest you to read this for your further information:
    http://www.carm.org./doctrine/2natures.htm

  26. avatar Shadiq Thahir says:

    First, I am born a Muslim and now I have faith in the Islamic Teaching because Islam is a very reasonable and logical teaching.

    Now, are you all going to judge that i’m narrow minded, that I am a terrorist?

    Am I wrong?

    If you think that I am wrong, would you like to help me?

    For the sake of JUST. Just please think carefully before you answer this.

    To Arema,

    There is a hadith in Islam that say, Always Seek Knowledge even You have to reach China.

    So, I guess the Prophet Muhammad S.A.W knows that Chinese civilization is the owner of great knowledges and beside of that, he knows for sure that: “Always Seeking Knowledge is very Important, no matter where we are.

    Is this a narrow minded thinking?

  27. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Dear Shadiq Thahir, those who are poor, the destitutes, the no-hopers tend to be attracted to ‘prize money’ wins, and Islam holds their ultimate prize -‘all play and no work’ in heaven if you submit.

    I do not know if you are narrow-minded, but if you are a practising moslem, there is a high possibility. Take a look at the world around you, moslem countries are not just narrow-minded, but the most backward. When you become a real moslem, petty issues start to invade your mind, like your neighbours’ sex life, did your moslem friend miss his Friday prayer, did a Muslimah cover up, did anyone try to apostatize, etc. You become lazy in this life because life on earth is only a test. You become intolerant and violent when questioned about your faith, because doing so might wake you up to reality.

    Being a moslem, you can’t see what is wrong with yourself. You won’t even want to accept solution or listen to other’s suggestion, because you think you already had the answer. You think you are with the right God and as long as you followed that His guidance book to the letter, you will be back on track in no time. That’s what every moslem think, isn’t it? When you see other nationals better than you, you think they had stolen pages of your Qu’ran and decoded it. Your life revolve around a book. There should be no mistake even if it tells you killing non-moslem is okay, or wife swapping is okay.

    The Qu’ran and hadiths say a lot of things, logical and illogical. Why quote a verse or two that are good and make a big deal out of it, and ignore the hundreds that are bad. You should look at the Qu’ran and hadith as a whole, then compare with books of other great thinkers thousand of years before your Rasulallah. Make sure you compare as that is the only way you can open your eyes.

    The Chinese are a highly conscious race which make them very successful. Their Dragon God gave them superior brain capable of filtering what is nonsense and what’s not, which means no amount of Islamic advertizing and marketing will be successful in China. While poor moslems in Indonesia are more concerned about the correct Qu’ranic revelation than putting food on the table for their starving wives and children, the Chinese talk about bigger and better plans. The way they control the moslem population, and how they disbanded the Falungong are testimony that the Chinese are NO nonsense taker. They know how to prevent religious conflict before it gets out of hand like what we saw in Poso. Have you ever wondered why Chinese can be Christian, Buddhist, Animism, but avoided Islam?

    If you think that I am wrong, would you like to help me?

    I can tell you their secret but your mind has to be broad enough to accept blunt truth. Moslem are not known to accept facts.

  28. avatar Shadiq Thahir says:

    Dear anak baluang, first I want to thank you about your reply. 🙂

    I have this in my mind, what do you think is true, everyone is perfect or nobody is perfect?

    And I know for sure that the chinese have been always a great nation, but I also read that the chinese “government” of RRC, forced the tibetan to surrender to them with force and struggle, if you have more informations about this, can you share them with me.

    I have also read in the wikipedia, that there are also Muslim chinese and they called themself “Hui”. In wikipedia I’ve read that there are also HUI general that serve the chinese empire and they tend to be very loyal. And there are a lot of chinese Muslim in china, probably more than in there are Muslim in malaysia. What do you think about this, is it true, cause I never been to china before.

    When I read the Holy Qur’an, there are a lot of verse that a person shall always think with their logic and should also travel around the world so we will gain knowledge about others, the world, and ourself, and this is one thing that draw me to islam.

    So, one thing I want to share with you is that I embrace islam because my logic goes the same way with what the Qur’an tell me, not because I just do things what the in the holy Qur’an without thinking.

    Btw, I’ve learned also about Christianity when I was a child in germany for 4,5 year, and I also have a bible in my home, there are many good things in the bible, but some can go with my logic, especially the trinity concept. And I can find them in the bible either. can you help me with this?

    If you ask me if I believe in Jesus/Isa, budha, confucius, krishna a.s, ofcourse I do and as a Muslim, there are no things to hinder me believing in any prophets and their teaching. The teaching of islam even teach me to have faith in all prophets. So, there is no problem for me learning other teachings as a Muslim because every goodness is goodness.

    I don’t think the crisis in POSO has anything conceptual with the teaching of any religion, because neither islam nor the Christianity teach as to do the things they do there, both sides are the victim of some provocation I believe.

    In the teaching of islam I’ve learned that a person can only change himself if that person strive to change, praying without doing anything good for the surrounding is not in the teaching of Islam, so I don’t agree with you that the islamic teaching teach us to be lazy, but I agree with you that there are a lot of people claiming themselves Muslim and do those kind of things, but again, that’s not Islam.

    Any tradition have some sort of superstition, and I don’t agree any philosphical teaching, or religious teaching should be made up of superstition I agree with you all that we shouldn’t just believe in anyting without thinking and without having the knowledge.

    Well I’m not to going to debate anything here, I just want to share my knowledge and point of view.

    I just don’t agree with any kind of intolerance of any kind. It is sad to see people claiming themselves Muslim and do intolerance things as being intolerated as a foreigner in germany, england, france, china, japan etc, you should know that intolerance has nothing to do with any religious teaching, intolerance comes from not having knowledge about things we don’t understand, and that for sure everywhere in the world if we open our mind.

    Thanx for all the share. 🙂

  29. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Hi Shadiq Thahir,

    Dear anak baluang, first I want to thank you about your reply.

    You’re welcome.

    I have this in my mind, what do you think is true, everyone is perfect or nobody is perfect?

    Only an egoistic maniac think he is perfect. I don’t know why you have this as a question to me.

    And I know for sure that the chinese have been always a great nation, but I also read that the chinese “government” of RRC, forced the tibetan to surrender to them with force and struggle, if you have more informations about this, can you share them with me.

    If you are computer illiterate, I might do you a favor. Why not you goggle search yourself? I am beginning to think moslems are lazy. I do have a family and a job to go to, and I don’t live in that part of the world to share the Tibetians’ struggle off-hand with you.

    I have also read in the wikipedia, that there are also Muslim chinese and they called themself “Hui”. In wikipedia I’ve read that there are also HUI general that serve the chinese empire and they tend to be very loyal. And there are a lot of chinese Muslim in china, probably more than in there are Muslim in malaysia. What do you think about this, is it true, cause I never been to china before.

    *yawn*

    When I read the Holy Qur’an, there are a lot of verse that a person shall always think with their logic and should also travel around the world so we will gain knowledge about others, the world, and ourself, and this is one thing that draw me to islam.
    So, one thing I want ……

    oki doki.

    Btw, I’ve learned also about Christianity when I was a child in germany for 4,5 year, and I also have a bible in my home, there are many good things in the bible, but some can go with my logic, especially the trinity concept. And I can find them in the bible either. can you help me with this?

    A priest might be able to help you.

    If you ask me if I believe ….. having the knowledge.

    Okay.

    Well I’m not to going to debate anything here, I just want to share my knowledge and point of view.

    pheww .. gee thanks. Same here too. I am not into debating.

    I just don’t agree with any kind of intolerance of any kind. It is sad to see people claiming themselves Muslim and do intolerance things as being intolerated as a foreigner in germany, england, france, china, japan etc, you should know that intolerance has nothing to do with any religious teaching, intolerance comes from not having knowledge about things we don’t understand, and that for sure everywhere in the world if we open our mind.

    I think you better log onto a moslem site and tell them intolerance is not right.

    Thanx for all the share.

    Arigato. 🙂

  30. avatar luphIndo says:

    To Sputjam : you sound like a Jew!!! anyway thanks for the input… but Christian view of Jesus is not merely as a man…

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