Densus 88

Feb 5th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

The name of Densus 88 should be changed to Densus 5000, says Abu Bakar Ba'asyir.

Densus 88, or "Special Detachment 88", of the Indonesian police force charged with anti-terror duties, Detasemen Khusus (Densus) 88 Anti Terror, has aroused the ire of some Muslims recently because of its increasing success in capturing terrorists and militants.

The head of the Mujahidin Council, (Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI)), Abu Bakar Ba'asyir claims that the squad was given the title "88" because that was the number of people (Antara) Australians killed in the 2002 Bali bombings, and further, that the name should be changed to Densus 5000, because, he says, 3000 Muslims have been killed in Bali (Antara) Ambon and 2000 in Poso, Central Sulawesi.

Abu Bakar Ba'asyir
Abu Bakar Ba'asyir.

Speaking at a seminar in Jakarta on 4th called "Does there need to be a revolution to impose Islamic law in Indonesia?" Bashir reiterated his earlier calls for Densus 88 to not just be withdrawn from Poso but disbanded.

Baasyir went on to complain that whenever Muslims defended themselves from attack they were labelled as terrorists, and suggested that Christians who did the same were branded as mere criminals, such as in the case of Fabianus Tibo.

There have been a number of mass demonstrations recently, mainly in Surakarta, Central Java, demanding that Densus 88 be abolished, as it is seen as an anti-Muslim, and western-funded, force.


69 Comments on “Densus 88”

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  1. avatar Tomaculum says:
    February 5th, 2007 at 1:02 am

    And what about the Christian victims?
    Oh, sorry, they don’t count, hmm? Just kafir, so less worth?
    3000 Moslem victim in Bali or was it in Ambon?

  2. avatar Dimp says:
    February 5th, 2007 at 4:43 am

    Hi Tomaculum,

    And what about the Christian victims?

    They are “kafir” so they don’t count.

  3. avatar Zapata says:
    February 5th, 2007 at 8:44 am

    I am pretty sure if he was asked to provide evidence, he might not be able to do so. I haven’t read any report or analysis which is launched by Moslem organisation in response to other reports (ie Crisisweb) that is perceived by Moslems as an attack towards Islam.

    Regarding terrorist network in Poso, analysis of ICG is very interesting. So far it may be the most comprehensive and is supported with many data. There is an interesting fact in the report. The leader of notorious Moslem org, Laskar Jihad, Jaffar Umar Thalib was asked by the police to persuade young Moslems in Sulawesi to surrender and direct their jihad war towards other vice (alcohol, gambling and the like).

  4. avatar Dimp says:
    February 5th, 2007 at 8:50 am

    The leader of notorious Moslem org, Laskar Jihad, Jaffar Umar Thalib was asked by the police to persuade young Moslems in Sulawesi to surrender and direct their jihad war towards other vice (alcohol, gambling and the like).

    They should start declaring jihad against floods.

  5. avatar 1ndra says:
    February 5th, 2007 at 9:51 am

    And jihad against the terrorists!

  6. avatar Syonan says:
    February 6th, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    Indonesia has long been a muli-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-religous society while acceptance and tolerance exist, there seems to lack an in-depth knowledge, understanding and dialogue about various religions. This lack of inter-religious understanding are potential points of tension. It is time that the Indonesian Ministry of Religious Affairs re-organised themselves and organise a dialogue between the religious groupings to stamp out the current religious problems that is happening in Sulteng. Further more, the Majelis Ulama Indonesia, Nahdlatul Ulama and Mohammadiyyah should issue a fatwa as regards speeches being made by Abu Bakar Ba’asyir.

  7. avatar Ihaknt says:
    February 7th, 2007 at 6:56 am

    Change the name to densus 5001 and blow up this old twat to make the 1.

    Indonesia has long been a muli-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-religous society while acceptance and tolerance exist, there seems to lack an in-depth knowledge, understanding and dialogue about various religions. This lack of inter-religious understanding are potential points of tension.

    It’s because they have lost all their akal sehat. Everything is associated to religion and yet they forget they are given a brain by God but dont want to use it!

    Densus 88, or “Special Detachment 88″³, of the Indonesian police force charged with anti-terror duties, Detasemen Khusus (Densus) 88 Anti Terror, has aroused the ire of some Muslims recently because of its increasing success in capturing terrorists and militants.

    Isn’t this a good thing? If ABB wasn’t a terorist himself then why is he worried and now wants the group disbanded, changed name, etc? He is giving the religion a bad name and not even punished for it. Is everyone blind?

  8. avatar Dedi turmudi says:
    February 7th, 2007 at 8:29 am

    Whatever their name are, I don’t care! In my opinion the most important thing is the action. If the name of Densus 88 is changed into Densus 5000, or 5001 or others, but the mission and action are eradicating suspected Moslem terrorist, I will be against it all.

    So, it’s no meaning to argue the change of the name. Furthermore, why they make Moslems as victim target? Are all terrorists Moslem? Look at what happen in USA 70% of terrorist are Christians, and the rest are from other religion including Islam. So, the label of terrorists which are mostly adressed to Moslems is a propaganda to kill good Islamic character.I believe also that all master minds of the terror in Indonesia are military and political interest, as it is also quite common all over the world.

    Meanwhile, I am questioning why many more Moslems are easily get offended just because of small thing and echo “Jihad”. Are there not any approaches to resolve conflict? So far as I know, the term of Jihad is legal in Islam if it is in the right system. If there is jama’ah and no Imam, it means there is no jihad (war).

    There is no Jihad if there is no jama’ah, and there is no jama’ah if there is no Imam / Kholifah. So, all in all who is molsem leader (called Imam) right now who has perogative right to decide whether the situation is Jihad or others?

    In conclusion I can say that everything happen in our country, particularly related to terrorist issue, is part of global conspiracy to discredit Islam which are growing fast right now. Though, I am not proud that Moslem followers become more more because the quailty is poor! Therefore, let’s do jihad to eradicate the stupidness, poverty (belief and rich), and so forth. Let’s stop quarelling!

    Salam

  9. avatar Dimp says:
    February 7th, 2007 at 9:02 am

    Hi Dedi,

    Look at what happen in USA 70% of terrorist are Christians, and the rest are from other religion including Islam.

    Can you please advise where do you get 70% from?

    In conclusion I can say that everything happen in our country, particularly related to terrorist issue, is part of global conspiracy to discredit Islam which are growing fast right now.

    You are another Indonesian who cannot accept the truth, and always blaming others.

  10. avatar Grace and Mercy says:
    February 7th, 2007 at 11:51 am

    I wonder what kind of seminar it was that he was invited to speak. My guess is not a constructive one, since I have honestly never heard anything constructive coming out from Basyir.

  11. avatar Ihaknt says:
    February 7th, 2007 at 11:53 am

    Dedi,

    Dude, you said that too many people are easily provoked, but you sound like you’re one of them. Yes we are all so sick of this terorist issues. But you see, the one thing that is lacking here is right education and open mindedness. They are not taught since early age that people are different. there are other races, places, people, cultures, and so on, and that people should respect and tolerate each other. They are not taught that differences are there so people can learn from each other and compliment each other, not to hate them.

    Since the beginning of time, people have been fighting for each other over anything, and of course for power and money. But, obviously people dont learn from past mistakes and still fight each other in the name of religion. Jihad is big stinking BS. You can fatwa me if you want I really don’t give a sh*t.

  12. avatar Rockstar says:
    February 8th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Yeah right 70% terrorist in the US is a Christian, and I’m Osama bin Laden.

  13. avatar Rambutan says:
    February 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    In conclusion I can say that everything happen in our country, particularly related to terrorist issue, is part of global conspiracy to discredit Islam which are growing fast right now.

    Well, that’s what the radicals want to make you believe, ABB spreading the ridculous ‘theory’ about the Bali bombs actually being an American mini nuke refers.

  14. avatar Robert says:
    February 8th, 2007 at 8:13 pm

    Dimp,

    Can you please advise where do you get 70% from?

    In defence of Dedi I must say that the US has had (and still has) their share of domestic terrorism for more than a century. The most notorious example is the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 in which war-veteran Timothy McVeigh drove his (explosives loaden) truck into a federal building. In the following explosion 168 people (adults and children) were killed.

    Apart from this there were (much) smaller terrorist attacks which didn’t get the worldwide media exposure. And these attacks had nothing to do with Muslim terrorism.

    The September 11 attacks””the biggest and deadliest terrorist plot ever executed in the United States “”were carried out by foreigners, but Americans were responsible for about three-quarters of the 335 incidents between 1980 and 2000 that the FBI has classified as suspected or confirmed terrorism.

    Source: Council on Foreign Relations, http://www.cfr.org

    So 75% of terrorism-related incidents has been caused by (Christian?) Americans. About the kind of terrorist:

    The people and groups range from white supremacists, anti-government types and militia members to eco-terrorists and people who hate corporations. They include violent anti-abortionists and black and brown nationalists who envision a separate state for blacks and Latinos.

    Source: Larry Copeland, USA Today, http://www.usatoday.com

    In Indonesia terrorism maybe religion related, but in the US it is related to matters as religion, militarism, nationalism and ecology etc. And the terrorists themselves span the range from plain idiots to doctors (Ph.D).
    We can say that terrorism has always been a part of US history, the difference is the media attention and the number of victims that is involved.

  15. avatar Dimp says:
    February 9th, 2007 at 4:31 am

    Hi Robert,

    So 75% of terrorism-related incidents has been caused by (Christian?) Americans.

    Even if they were caused by Christian, they were more fueled by political agenda rather than religion.

    I am sick of people who are defending the violence acts committed by people of the same background (race, religion etc.) by stating that “well, the others are doing it too”. Grow up, people, don’t lie to yourself, the facts are there, if you are at fault then admit it, do something about it, don’t try to blame it on someone else saying that there is a conspiracy against you.

  16. avatar Andrew says:
    February 9th, 2007 at 5:12 am

    In conclusion I can say that everything happen in our country, particularly related to terrorist issue, is part of global conspiracy to discredit Islam which are growing fast right now.

    You should thank Mr. Bin Laden for putting the final seal on the deal. Had it not because of him, people wouldn’t be talking about Islam vs. the rest of the world that much these days. He and his followers – and yes, that includes all radicals that think the west is the enemy of Islam – are the people you should go after.

  17. avatar Hassan says:
    February 10th, 2007 at 12:45 am

    Andrew: But how can we thank Bin Laden if we don’t know him and can’t cast vote to agree or disagree to his decisions/actions?

    He and his followers – and yes, that includes all radicals that think the west is the enemy of Islam – are the people you should go after.

    How? You know, by individuals like you and me. Andrew, what can you do to stop IRA or the Basque separatists, for example? And oh, we all knew they’re Christians.

    My point is: We, the regular everyday Muslims are also the victims here, we received the reputation which they had crafted, without our consent.

    Dimp:

    Even if they were caused by Christian, they were more fueled by political agenda rather than religion.

    Great justification! I’m sure it’s OK to take human lives for that reason.

    Anyway, what makes you think that terrorism done by Islamic radicals aren’t political in nature? You should reconsider your judgment if you think that Al Qaeda did it for the glory of their religion. Didn’t you ever hear their statements? They never said that their actions was meant to save Islam, they said they were punishing the west for their injustice and arrogance.

    I am sick of people who are defending the violence acts committed by people of the same background (race, religion etc.) by stating that “well, the others are doing it too”. Grow up, people, don’t lie to yourself, the facts are there, if you are at fault then admit it.

    OK, we admit. We Indonesian Muslims blew up the WTC, all 180 million of us carried out the two Bali bombings. What else should we admit? :)

  18. avatar Andrew says:
    February 10th, 2007 at 1:09 am

    Hassan, the moral of the story is, I don’t blame others for whatever happens to Christians, whereas this Dedi dude blames “the world” for what happens to Muslims.

    He does not say a single word on anything done by those people who call themselves Muslims but act like barbarians.

    It is of course very easy to assign blame to others outside your group, which is why people do that, and forget to look in the mirror.

    _______________

    And for the sake of discussion, what do you think would happen if the IRA and Basque separatists blew up markets, buildings and towns in predominantly Muslim countries around the world, and claim that they did it in the name of Christianity?

  19. avatar Robert says:
    February 10th, 2007 at 1:53 am

    Hassan,

    Anyway, what makes you think that terrorism done by Islamic radicals aren’t political in nature? You should reconsider your judgment if you think that Al Qaeda did it for the glory of their religion. Didn’t you ever hear their statements? They never said that their actions was meant to save Islam, they said they were punishing the west for their injustice and arrogance.

    You cannot take religion out of the equation here. The are plenty of people in the west too who think the west are injust and arrogant. Those people don’t do terrorist attacks.
    You make it sound like it is pure coincidental that the people who flew into the WTC or commited the bomb attacks on Bali, London and Madrid are Muslims.
    Why don’t Hindu’s and Buddhists commit these crimes like these then. Don’t they see the arrogance and injustice of the west?

  20. avatar Dimp says:
    February 10th, 2007 at 4:13 am

    Hassan,

    Great justification! I’m sure it’s OK to take human lives for that reason.

    I never justified their actions, I condemned their actions for whatever reasons.

    Anyway, what makes you think that terrorism done by Islamic radicals aren’t political in nature? You should reconsider your judgment if you think that Al Qaeda did it for the glory of their religion. Didn’t you ever hear their statements? They never said that their actions was meant to save Islam, they said they were punishing the west for their injustice and arrogance.

    I agree they have political agenda as well, but most people will perceive their actions is based on religion as they always use that they are fighting the enemy of Islam. But again I am not bashing Islam, I am just bashing these terrorists.

    OK, we admit. We Indonesian Muslims blew up the WTC, all 180 million of us carried out the two Bali bombings. What else should we admit?

    What the, I think you misunderstood me Hassan. If you have been justifying the terrorists act because others have been doing the same violent act then you should look deep into yourself.

  21. avatar Dedi turmudi says:
    February 10th, 2007 at 8:46 am

    We can say everything here, but with cold head, because this is a medium to argue what we know.If you really want to know where I got the information about 70% terror attack in US was non Moslem, then read the easist one, REPUBLIKA. Ask the publisher of that media in Jakarta, because I am in US now.
    In addition, 9/11 is questioned by some US people that the doers were Moslem. They believe that 9/11 is conspiracy visit website : http://www.INFOWARS.com
    http://www.911TRUTH.com
    http://www.911TRUTHDVD.com
    http://www.PILOTSFOR911TRUTH.com
    http://www.TRUTHWARS.com
    http://www.FREEDOM.corg
    http://www.FREEDOMTOFACISM.com
    http://www.PRISONPLANET.com
    http://www.PROPAGANDAMATRIX.com
    http://www.AMERICANFREEDOMWRITERS.com
    http://www.GIVEMELIBERTY.com
    http://www.RONPAUL.com

    Enjoy your opinion.

    ____________________

    Please watch this video.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7776047547963007354

  22. avatar Andrew says:
    February 10th, 2007 at 10:26 pm

    I think you are confusing yourself.

    First of all, if 9/11 was done by non-Muslims, why would Osama proudly claim it was his brainchild?

    Secondly, the evidence overwhelmingly points to Osama and his organization, and not to anyone else.

    Finally, Osama is a Muslim (or so he claims) – BUT the governments of the western countries never said it represents Islam in general. It is Osama who attempted to link the terrible incident with Islam for whatever reason he had in mind. So, sure you are right, this is an attempt to discredit Islam, but it is done by someone who claim to be a Muslim. Now tell me, why do you blame the world, and make no mention of the culprit?

    And yes, I live in the US, too, and despite some resistance, I can clearly see the US government’s effort to treat Muslims in the country in a fair manner. You can always point to injustice here and there, but before you do that, you should see how minorities are treated in Indonesia.

  23. avatar Hassan says:
    February 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    Robert: “You cannot take religion out of the equation here. The are plenty of people in the west too who think the west are injust and arrogant. Those people don’t do terrorist attacks.”

    You can take religion into the equation if legitimate religious authority in that religion (like the Catholic Pope, for example) declared war (in the form of a crusade, jihad, etc.) or officially condoned the actions. No legitimate Islamic religious authority (like the Khalifa, Grand Mufti, etc.) had ever condoned any terrorist acts. Those terrorist actions were done outside the religious system, as far as Islam is concerned.

    If it were the IRA who had blown the WTC, could we blame Christianity as a whole?

    “You make it sound like it is pure coincidental that the people who flew into the WTC or commited the bomb attacks on Bali, London and Madrid are Muslims.
    Why don’t Hindu’s and Buddhists commit these crimes like these then. Don’t they see the arrogance and injustice of the west?”

    I always believe that for every action there is an opposite or equal reaction. The answer for your question may lie in the fact that while the other religions also see the arrogance and injustice of the west, it was nations like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran who were the targets of the west’s wrath, not India, Nepal, or Japan. Had India been the target of a US invasion, I believe that there will be some Hindu fanatics blowing bombs in some western public transport systems.

    It is quite obvious that after communism, Islam is what the west felt as the biggest threat, a threat to their ideology and way of life. You know why the US struck the Islamist militiamen in Somalia with air strikes? Or why they brought the Taliban down? Or indeed why they label Abu Bakar Baashir as a terrorist? All of them had one thing in common, all of them wanted to apply the sharia in their respective countries. The US does not want sharia to spread more than it already has, in places like Saudi Arabia, etc.

    If Indonesian Muslims unite one day and declared that they wanted to convert Indonesia into a nation based on sharia, you can count that the US will not sit back and watch.

    The religion Islam is not the enemy for them, the Islamic ideology, the sharia, is.

  24. avatar Robert says:
    February 12th, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Hassan.

    No legitimate Islamic religious authority (like the Khalifa, Grand Mufti, etc.) had ever condoned any terrorist acts. Those terrorist actions were done outside the religious system, as far as Islam is concerned.

    So, from your point of view, because there is no “certificate of authencity” issued by the religious authorities, the terrorist act is not religion-related.
    I don’t think religious authorities have anything to do with it. The fact that a terrorist act is religion related has to do with the motive of the purpetrator, so what’s in his mind. When the purpetrator finds the justification for his acts in religion or religious writings then we can say it is a religion-related act.
    For example in the US anti-abortionists kill doctors who work in abortion clinics. They do that with the Bible in one hand and with a gun in the other. I didn’t hear that the religious authorities (Pope?) gave their approval. I think this has everything to do with religion because there the justification is found, with or without “official” approval.

    If it were the IRA who had blown the WTC, could we blame Christianity as a whole?

    Is the IRA a religious organisation then? No, they are just a bunch of people (British) who want Northern-Ireland to become part of the Irish Republic and fight the UK government, by killing other British citizens. It is just plain old nationalism.
    No, they wouldn’t fly into the WTC because it would make no sense. On the contrary the IRA always got their biggest support and funding from the US, so they wouldn’t harm the hand that is feeding them.

    I always believe that for every action there is an opposite or equal reaction.

    So do I. Al-Queda hits the US by flying into the WTC. The US strikes back by hitting Al-Queda in Afghanistan. Al-queda strikes back again etc etc.

    Had India been the target of a US invasion, I believe that there will be some Hindu fanatics blowing bombs in some western public transport systems.

    I am 100% sure that this would happen.

    The US does not want sharia to spread more than it already has, in places like Saudi Arabia, etc.

    I agree with you, I think this is one of the main reasons behind the present US foreign policy.

    If Indonesian Muslims unite one day and declared that they wanted to convert Indonesia into a nation based on sharia, you can count that the US will not sit back and watch.

    I am not that sure about that. The US Government is already in deep sh*t because of the Iraq conflict. I don’t think the (new Democrat) Government would take another (big) risk. It would depend on the attitude of the (new) Indonesian government towards the US and its investments in Indonesia. When they would do business with the US like they always did, nothing would happen.
    Apart from the US Government, there would be a lot opposition in Indonesia itself from others like Christian’s and Hindu’s. There would also be the military to deal with, because they will not let their position be jeopardized. And let’s not forget China, I don’t think they will endorse a sharia-state.

  25. avatar Hassan says:
    February 12th, 2007 at 6:24 pm

    Robert: You said,

    Is the IRA a religious organisation then? No, they are just a bunch of people (British) who want Northern-Ireland to become part of the Irish Republic and fight the UK government, by killing other British citizens. It is just plain old nationalism.

    And what makes you think Al Qaeda is a religious organization? Al Qaeda was once a part of the mujahiddeen in Afghanistan, struggling to oust the Sovyets out of Afghan. Al Qaeda was supported, funded, armed and trained by the US through the CIA, for obvious reasons prevalent during the Cold War era. Just because they quote verses from the Quran doesn´t meant they are a religious organization. They are former mercenaries without a master, and eventually they turned against their former master, the US.

    No, they wouldn’t fly into the WTC because it would make no sense. On the contrary the IRA always got their biggest support and funding from the US, so they wouldn’t harm the hand that is feeding them.

    First of all, my question was hypothetical. IF it were some terrorist group who happened to be Christians who had attacked the WTC, should we blame Christianity as a whole? Secondly, Al Qaeda had also gotten their support and funding from the US during the Afghan-Sovyet war. The difference with the IRA situation is, the US abandoned them when the Cold War ends, and Al Qaeda turned against their old master and harmed the hand that had fed them.

    So do I. Al-Queda hits the US by flying into the WTC. The US strikes back by hitting Al-Queda in Afghanistan. Al-queda strikes back again etc etc.

    The thing is, there is no definite proof that Al Qaeda had done all those things. What happened was the US accused Al Qaeda as the culprit, using one sided arguments, “evidence”, theories, and “facts”. The last time the US used the same one sided approach was when they accused Iraq of having weapons of mass destruction, ready to launch within 24 hours. Now, where was those WMD´s? You still believed anything the Bush administration tells you after that WMD fiasco?

    Anyway, Al Qaeda had always said they didn´t do it. Osama said 9/11 was more than his wildest dreams. Which one do you believe more, the serial liar Bush, or the ex-CIA puppet Osama? I say none! Both of them are just trying to play us for a fool.

    And let’s not forget China, I don’t think they will endorse a sharia-state.

    China had always been tolerant, and they don’t want to risk losing the support of the Islamic world by invading the biggest Islamic country in the world. If the Arabs decides to stop their oil to China as an act of solidarity, it’s bye bye China. And China can’t threat or lobby those Arab countries like the US can.

    About the other minorities, minorities are minorities, they are the same all over the world. They will follow the majority, willingly or unwillingly.

    _________________

    For those who still believed in the Bush administration and still thinks that Al Qaeda blew the WTC, open the link http://www.911truthDVD.com.

    A link which Dedi Turmudi provided. I found that it was the most wothwhile and truthful link from the list.

    The language wasn´t propaganda-ish and conspiracy theory-ish, actually it used a rather scientific tone and approach.

    If you profess of being a rational and open-minded person, I´m quite sure that you will agree with the arguments stated in the video.

  26. avatar Robert says:
    February 12th, 2007 at 9:22 pm

    Hassan,

    The thing is, there is no definite proof that Al Qaeda had done all those things. What happened was the US accused Al Qaeda as the culprit, using one sided arguments, “evidence”, theories, and “facts”. The last time the US used the same one sided approach was when they accused Iraq of having weapons of mass destruction, ready to launch within 24 hours. Now, where was those WMD´s? You still believed anything the Bush administration tells you after that WMD fiasco?

    Once a liar, always a liar.

    China had always been tolerant, and they don’t want to risk losing the support of the Islamic world by invading the biggest Islamic country in the world.

    China a tolerant country? Yeah, sure. Ask the people in Tibet, or the victims of the Cultural Revolution or the Falun Gong. China has an appalling human rights record. The Chinese are far away from being tolerant.
    The Chinese don’t need Indonesian support, they only need Indonesia’s natural resources.

    If the Arabs decides to stop their oil to China as an act of solidarity, it’s bye bye China. And China can’t threat or lobby those Arab countries like the US can.

    That’s right, China can not threat Arab countries yet. But what is not possible at the moment, may become reality in the (near) future when China becomes a military superpower. Then it might be bye bye Arab countries.

  27. avatar Ihaknt says:
    February 13th, 2007 at 5:55 am

    Tolerant China? Never heard of it. They are probably one of the strictest ruled and merciless countries on earth. Many of the citizens can’t do much. The workers don’t have good working conditions. And the on-going torture to the Falun Gong followers is just appalling. The more protest they do, the more torture they get. Fair enough that their economy is currently growing, but many still live by getting food ration in the poorer areas of the country.

  28. avatar Madesh says:
    February 13th, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    If I am not mistaken Dedi is trying to say that Osama, Hasan Ashari, Nordin Moh Top, Imam Samodra, Muchlas and the gangs have converted to Christian.

  29. avatar Grace and Mercy says:
    February 13th, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    No wonder Abu Bakar keeps making non-sense comments. It never fails to stir up yet another heated arguments in Indonesia Matters. :D

  30. avatar Hassan says:
    February 13th, 2007 at 11:22 pm

    What I meant by “China had always been tolerant” was that China was quite tolerant towards other ideologies, well at least more so than the US. The US will always viciously try to block or destroy a rival ideology, like Communism in the past or Islam at present. I can’t see any comparison between the US and China in that department.
    China had never invaded another sovereign country or topple the legitimate ruler of another country over ideological differences (I don’t know if the Tibet case can be considered an ‘ideological war’), that my friends is America’s favorite past time.

    My point is, I doubt if China will be the one who will invade or attempt a regime change in Indonesia IF (note the ‘IF’) Indonesia converted to an Islamic state based on Sharia.

    But what is not possible at the moment, may become reality in the (near) future when China becomes a military superpower.

    If China becomes a military superpower, I doubt if they will try to crush the Arabs first. Their rival is just across the Pacific. Naturally, the two military superpowers will clash first before anything else.

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