Mavi Marmara Incident
Jun 2nd, 2010, in News, by Patung
Israel causes traffic jams in Bogor; one Indonesian volunteer hurt in the Mavi Marmara incident.
In response to the Israeli boarding of Comoros flagged ship “Mavi Marmara” – part of the “Freedom Flotilla” ferrying relief supplies to Palestinians – in international waters off the coast of Israel on May 31st hundreds of journalists and university students staged a pro-Palestinian demonstration in Bogor, West Java on 1st June.
Anti Zionists
In a news report, “Roads Jammed in Bogor Because of Israel“, it is said that traffic on Jalan Sholeh Iskandar was backed up five kilometres, due to the protests, or Israel.
Meanwhile of the 12 Indonesians on board the “Mavi Marmara” one among them was hurt in the incident, and is currently being treated at the London Hospital in Haifa, Israel, and will likely be deported once recovered.
Possibly one of these fellows.
The Indonesian volunteers travelling on the boat came from various organisations including Friends of Al-Aqsa, the Medical Emergency Rescue Committee (MER-C), and the Indonesian Committee for Solidarity With Palestine (KISPA).
85 Comments on “Mavi Marmara Incident”
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Dirk says:
realest, those accounts by Josephus and Tacitus have NOT been verified as a piece of historical evidence both by scholars and historians alike.
Cornelius Tacitus (circa AD 55-117 or later) writing in about AD 114-17, briefly describes the “Christians” who “derive their name and origin from Christ who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by the sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate.”
He says no more than this. Had he given more detail, we would be justified in believing that he made more than a cursory investigation into the sect. But since he only gives this description, we cannot eliminate the likelihood that he simply placed into his text the description that was commonly held — that description from the Gospels that had been in circulation for at least 20 years.
Also, he was not describing Christ, but Christians, who by then did not need an actual Christ to explain their existence; hundreds of sects thrived during that time who had alleged historical founders that probably did not exist and certainly did not perform the feats attributed to them in their respective body of mythology.
You’ll have to do better than Tacitus, almost 100 years later, to establish that a historical Jesus even existed — much less was who the patently biased and Gospel accounts say he was, or did what these hopelessly flawed Gospel accounts say he did.
First you must establish that he existed, and Tacitus cannot help you there; then you must establish that he was who the Christians say he was and did what the Christians say he did — and Tacitus most certainly cannot help you there.
That someone cannot see this simply boggles the mind; that people continue to propagate this yarn shows only that the propagation of the Christian religion is still being entrusted to patently dishonest individuals.
The alleged segment in Josephus’s so-called Testimonium Flavianum (Antiquities 18:63-64) is not genuine, and only a handful of hucksters still insist that it is.
Josephus (circa AD 37-101) was an orthodox Jew who cannot be expected to have written such obviously Christian words. The rest of his works do not ring like this one passage, and this segment uses many words that are simply not classical Latin, so it is impossible that he wrote this.
If he did write these words, and if he believed what they say, then why did he restrict his coverage of Jesus to this little parenthesis? Why would he interrupt his count-down of the various rebellions in Judaea, insert a wild and very un-Josephus account of a mystical religious figure who, according to the narrative, sparked no rebellion, and then return — right where he left off and continue to recount the Judaean rebellions?
Why did he not devote more if not much of his work to describing this most wonderful of men — if Josephus thought the story was true? And why is this the only place where Josephus enters into a parenthesis without introducing it as such, and without reintroducing the reader back to the main narrative?
But we don’t have to address these or any similar problems if Josephus the Roman Jew did not write this obviously Christian passage.
And why is Hierapolis’s tenth-century quote of the Arabic translation of Antiquities, which was probably made from the Syriac translation, so vastly different from the one handed down to us by Roman Catholic monks? These two drastically different accounts cannot both be authentic; at least one of them is a plagiarization — if not both of them.
If this passage is genuine, we can expect later Christian writers to refer to it. It would have been a strong element in the early Christians’ struggles to ward off the allegations that no Jesus ever existed and that Jesus was just another mythological figure like all the other mythological figures who allegedly founded the hundreds of different religious sects which thrived during those times.
* Justin Martyr (circa AD 100-165) never once quoted this passage — even in the face of charges that Christians had “invented some sort of Christ for themselves” and that they had accepted “a futile rumor” (Dialogue with Trypho 8; circa AD 135).
* Origen (circa AD 185-254), who in his own writings relies extensively upon the works of Josephus, does not mention this passage or any other passage in Josephus that mentions Christ.
* Jerome (circa AD 347-420) cites Josephus 90 times, but never once cites the Testimonium. Perhaps it was added later?
L H Feldman, in his book Josephus and Modern Scholarship, lists two fathers from the second century, seven from the third, and two from the early fourth — all of whom knew Josephus and cited his works. But, he says, they “do not refer to this passage, though one would imagine it would be the first passage that a Christian apologist would cite.”
The first mention of the Testimonium is Eusebius (who died about AD 342), and a full century passes (including, most notably, the era of Augustine [AD 354-430]) before it is again mentioned by a Church Father.
This leads many to believe that it was Eusebius who ordered that this passage be inserted into the copies whose transmission was under his jurisdiction. Eusebius is the first to use the word tribe to describe the Christians, just as the alleged Testimonium uses the word.
Eusebius is probably most known for openly advocating that people lie if that’s what it takes to entice people into believing in Christ.
So, it makes sense to suspect that the Testimonium is just another of Eusebius’s lies for Christ.
When you manage to disprove these obvious truths and explain to me why non-Christians would acknowledge Jesus, I may take heed to your beliefs, but in the meantime, I remain an atheist.
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realest says:
Dirk, you copied every sentence of the post above (word for word) from this site: http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9214.htm
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I wrote this in my first post on this discussion:
It’s kinda funny how idiocy reveals itself eventually.
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Odinius says:
@dirk:
I don’t agree with some of the things you’ve said, particularly that religious people are stupid because they’re religious. But you’re wasting time arguing with an obvious troll. Notice how every post is designed to elicit an emotional, rather than intellectual, response?
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realest, yes, I did copy every word from that website, because it is convenient. Why would I write it all over again when it has already been written the way I want it to be written ?
On the other hand, I did study Latin and Ancient Greek in Belgium from the age of 12 until the age of 18, and I did study law at the university of Louvain in Belgium, and I practised law as a barrister in Belgian and European Courts.
Believe me, an idiot is not allowed to practise law in Europe.
I don’t know where you come from, but I was born in the Kingdom of Belgium. My country doesn’t have a national language. In the north of Belgium Dutch (Flemish) is spoken, in the south of Belgium French is spoken and in the east of Belgium German is spoken.
60 % of all Belgians speak Dutch (Flemish), 39 % speak French and 1 % speak German.
Our King (his name is Albert) always sees to it that he starts his speeches in Dutch, followed by French and German.
Our education system is one of the best in the world. One can still study Latin and Ancient Greek in high school, while students also are taught biology, chemistry, mathematics, next to Latin and Ancient Greek.
Up to you to believe it or not, but I did study Latin and Ancient Greek. I even speak and write Modern Greek fluently, as well as Dutch, French, English, Indonesian, and German.
Because I was born in Belgium, I already learned Dutch, French and German (the national languages) in primary school and further in high school, so learning new languages has become a hobby.
Anyway, I consider this discussion as closed.
From now on, I will not comment on any remark regarding religion or jesus.
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This was not religion or Jesus to begin with. I didnt question anyone’s belief nor advocate the divinity of Jesus in this discussion. It was about you being wrong on every post and adamantly denying it. Anyone can claim whatever they want to be … it’s the Internet !! Explaining your resume impressed no one because i’ve a privileged education myself. If you want my honest opinion, i don’t buy it. That’s why i decided to google your post in the first place instead of giving u the benefit of doubt, a trick my professor taught in catching programming plagiarizers.
My participation in this discussion begins with pointing out the mistake you’ve made(pork allowed in the Bible) and, like Diego, you could’ve left it there. You insulted a religion and was wrong about it, my response was imo proportional. Unlike Odinius, I don’t spread any personal grudge to other threads. What’s discussed here, stays here. Did I troll or gloat on your Indonesian Prisons articles? I don’t think so.
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Realest, why is it wrong to insult a religion, and why is it OK to insult people’s political opinions ?
Is religion somehow protected ? I have every right to make fun of and to insult a religion, just as I can make fun of anyone’s political and other opinions.
The fact that you refer to the Bible with regard to eating pork is already very funny, and I have the right (based on human rights) to make fun of your statement.
On the other hand, I don’t care whether you want to insult me with regard to my Indonesian Prison articles.
It’s called freedom of speech, and freedom of speech also includes the right to insult people.
I do have the right to make fun of religions and I do have the right to make fun of other people’s opinions.
Look here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUEaMA4gRIk and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ocBSP_D940
and also here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-4QIvygFmc
and here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5hWbfZsYs
Good night
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Let me clarify this since many posts are deleted:
1. It’s not wrong to insult a religion. The internet should be a place for freedom of speech
2. It’s wrong if you did not get your facts straight. If you’re going to claim something from the Bible, make sure what you say is actually there. In this case, pork is explicitly not allowed in the Bible.Dirk (PM) Says:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
Anyway, I consider this discussion as closed.
From now on, I will not comment on any remark regarding religion or jesus.Dirk (PM) Says:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
I do have the right to make fun of religions and I do have the right to make fun of other people’s opinions.
I rest my case (^o^)/ -
Hans says:
Hamas, which then controls the Gaza Strip three years, is at war with Israel. The radical Islamic movement has been Israel’s elimination of its program and want to make a Sharia state of Palestine. Israel can not afford safety and is concerned about the Hamas threat.
Israel fears an Iranian base in Gaza. The same fear held by Egyptian President
Hosni Mubarak, and of the country’s military leadership. An Iranian base tjugo mil from Cairoand ten mil from Tel Aviv fundamentally alter the balance of power in the Arab world and constitutes a threat to the pro-Western so-called moderate Arab rulers in region. -
Andrew says:
That guy in the middle looks like Santa Claus in white.
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Yes old man was visiting, he traveled with sleigh and came directly from Rovaniemi,
Rovaniemi, located near the Arctic Circle, is Santa Claus’ hometownAround the Arctic Circle wrap up warm in this winter wonderland for the freezing weather with air still and blue make cheeks redden and noses run.
Santa Claus, is not afraid of chilly weather – under his thick, red coat he is snug and very warm, as he commutes from Korvatunturi in Eastern Finnish Lapland to Rovaniemi every day.
In Santa Claus Office within the Arctic Circle it is far from freezing. The cheerful “pre-Christmas” hustle and bustle keeps Santa’s helpers dashing about seemingly never catching up. The Office is full of excitement with a symphony of different languages, spoken by the thousands of international guests in Rovaniemi to meet with Santa Claus. This atmosphere of Christmas is present in Lapland and Rovaniemi all the year around.
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Rudolf is the oldest and wisest of all reindeer. As a matter of fact Rudolf is the one that makes sure Santa Claus is in the right place at the right time, but the old Whitebeard himself also wants to have his “say” in the trip planning. Rudolf has an unique VSRNS, Very Special Reindeer Navigating System. The system is so good that Santa Claus can take a nap when they are going from place to place . And so he does! It was not so usual before, but nowadays that Santa Claus has hundreds of years on his shoulders, he likes to rest and doze when Rudolf leads the team of reindeer with sledges behind them through the night-skies. Really, every reindeer of Santa Claus can fly, although they usually trot along on the ground. When there is nobody around, up towards the sky they jump, sledges and Santa Claus with them. And with what speed; you might even hear a bang like a sonic boom.
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A ship is loaded – from Iran to Gaza.
The action will most likely be seen as a provocation by Israel.
power elite Revolutionary Guard stands ready to assist vessels with military escort if the country’s leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei wish. -
Sarah says:
Matthew 15:1-20
Jesus simply meant that eating (clean food) with unwashed hands does not make a man unclean (at heart) but what comes out his mouth does because mouth expresses the content of one’s heart. -
FPI again: http://www.indonesiamedia.com/2010/06/01/ketika-naga-emas-singkawang-terluka-sebuah-keprihatinan/ Now they want to target the chinese of singkawang. Please please SBY, round them up and kill them all (those goaties, they’re worthless anyway).
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Those goaties are definitely out for “Indonesian Eugenic Programme”. They have no good genes to contribute.
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Sorry, bad grammar in previous post. I mean those goaties should be excluded from “Indonesian Eugenic Programme”.
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Wow, learned about existence of romani people and belzec deathcamp as I was reading wikipage about eugenic and genocide. Interesting. Thanks google, I learn new thing every day. You deserve the nobel peace prize.
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jep, and they are still being discriminated against in eastern europe… saw a docu yesterday about it, some really horrible stuff, bunch of neo-nazi skinheads that firebombed a house in Tsjechia. the whole familie that lived there got out ok ‘cept for their little daughter, 6 years old or something, burned over 70% of her body, horrible stuff. they showed neo-nazi marches where loads and loads of people were cherring them on…
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The women in Gaza are already refugees in their own country and they rarely get the help they need. The war has been subjected to both psychological and physical violence.
There is a saying in the Middle East who say that women should stay out twice in life, when they marry and when they die. It is happening now in Gaza.“We can no longer turn a blind eye to the fundamentalist Islamists’ policy of the war against Israel and the oppression of women.” This was written by Tara Twan, chairman of the young-women’s.
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ehrrr i mean cheeriowing them on….
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I just read that FPI has 8 million members. I thought: wow it would be super cool if we can kill them all. I mean, it would be historical. More than holocaust. Just think about it: how cool would it be!
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8 million?????????????????????
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8 million? No way, Jose.
A lot closer to 8,000.
Comment on “Mavi Marmara Incident”.
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Dirk, Im not here to talk about the divinity of Christ. None of my statements in this discussion has pointed to that direction. I don’t care if you believe in Mickey Mouse or the flying spaghetti monster.
Those accounts by Josephus and Tactitus has been verified as a piece of historical evidence both by scholars and historians alike, and so far there has been no reports of alteration other than your claim.
But being an adult comes with the responsibility of owning up when you’re wrong or at least stfu. I would’ve been wrong if i say cinderella is a lesbian because she married a prince. Nobody would’ve cared if cinderella was a fictional character.