Swiss Minaret Ban Outrage
Dec 1st, 2009, in News, by Patung
Indonesian government and religious leaders defend religious freedom for Swiss Muslims.
Leader of Indonesia’s largest Muslim organisation, Nahdlatul Ulama (PBNU), KH Hasyim Muzadi, said of the recent referendum vote in Switzerland to forbid the construction of new minarets on mosques
It’s regrettable, it shows the Swiss are not tolerant about religious freedom.
The man reputed to be the 18th most influential Muslim figure in the world, and the leader of the august World Council on Religions for Peace (WCRP) said the NU would send a note to the Swiss embassy in Jakarta asking for an explanation of the matter.
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Marty Natalegawa, joined in protesting: thejakartapost
We are deeply disappointed by the Swiss decision, which is contradictory to its image as an inclusive and tolerant nation
On 14th October 2009, Swiss ambassador to Indonesia, Bernardino Regazzoni, had informed both the Indonesian government and the NU about the upcoming vote, and assured both that the Swiss government strongly opposed the plan to ban minarets.
Just over 57% of those who turned out voted ‘Yes’, with a majority in 22 out of 26 cantons. The proposal was put forward by Switzerland’s largest party, the opposition hard-right Swiss People’s Party (SVP), as a supposed measure against Islamization, while the Swiss government opposed it. antara
147 Comments on “Swiss Minaret Ban Outrage”
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Donny, please don’t link to faithfreedom here thanks, or similar sites, I removed those links.
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donny says:
Woah … sorry Patung …
won’t do that again =D
it’s just my opinion that the site is great =D -
brothermouzone
Again, your argument seems to veering towards âMuslims have done this and that in that country, so they shouldnât have the right to complain when somebody wrongs themâ as if Islam was one giant nation with one personality and every Muslim was responsible for every act of evil every done by any Muslim.
you don’t get the point …
I stated clearly that this issue is not worthed to arouse so many anger among muslims
yet so many of muslims protested as this was barbaric and so on. Meanwhile they did not say a word AT ALL about their fellow muslims doing despicable things to minoritieswhy can’t someone from muslims stated that “Switzerland’s ban on minaret should not be a controversy, we still have so many things to do to fix the image of Islam”
sorry, but my personal opinion is : that’s a double standard and they’re making me sick …
Itâs a religion which, like every religion, has its a mix of fundamentalist tools and good, decent people. The good decent people deserve their rights, regardless of the behavior of the fundamentalists.
agree with you … but AFAIK, Indonesian radicals once wrote that Islam is like a body … hurt one finger, you hurt them all …
so if a hand cuts other people’s hand … naturally the whole body MUST be responsible … even though you’re the feet, for examplesee America in Iraq Invasion … see how many American protested against their OWN government ??
don’t see any muslims doing the same about atrocities their comrades done …
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Bapak Wong Cilik
you use to be muslim right mas don? I guess you do not need my explanation which Muslim right stated in the Qurâan has been violated by West. apa dulu islam KTP doang nih? (becanda jangan marah)
I hope islam and the west will find a way to live together in peace (if possible)
‘
Almost … hahahahaa … I studied Islam for about 2 years from reliable source. fortunately I use my head and rational thinking and also MY HEART to distinguish right and wrong … and now I choose love to be my religion …
now … I wonder … which muslim right do you mean ? I have no idea … could you elaborate single muslim rights which has been abused by westerners THAT muslims himself did not do to other religion / minorities (if not worse)
about Islam & west live together in peace … let’s change it to …
Hope that all mankind live together in peace … agree ? -
Cukurungan says:
The non-Islamic world (a term you should use instead of the âWestâ) was very loud in protesting all these things, plus the appalling behaviour of the US in Iraq.
Do you think the very loud protesting is enough, we may believe what the west say a little bit if the west do the same thing for Tony Blair, George Bush, Cheney and Howard as we did it toward Amrozy cs ?.
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sighjay says:
Do you think the very loud protesting is enough, we may believe what the west say a little bit if the west do the same thing for Tony Blair, George Bush, Cheney and Howard as we did it toward Amrozy cs ?.
And I’m guessing you are going to point me in the direction of the firing squad Suharto faced for East Timor, or Bali ’65….no?
The was plenty of clamouring for prosecution of Bush etc in the West and he’s widely regarded by a very large part of US, European and much of the world as a criminal. There were prosecutions and jailings aplenty for US military crimes in Iraq (and they didn’t go nearly far enough, I agree). But where was the Islamic condemnation of Saddam?
And I guess I’m still waiting for you to point me in the direction of the Islamic outrage at Iran’s current trials and torture of pro-Democracy activists?
Nope? Not as important as a few minarets I guess.
The hypocrisy grates…
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Fawzia,
Many thank for your hard effort to convince me your version of Islam, be tough please keep up your effort on learning and reading hundred of thousand Hadist while myself has no such luxury time to do that because my days is so busy to enjoy this beautiful life God given to me.
I never asked anyone to believe me and I never asked anyone to approve my faith, I fully believe that what been written Quran is 100% correct and good for me as you believe that Quran is Bad for you. So what is wrong? In addition, I am not in position for offering you to become my forth wives that required you to convert?.
The most important thing in the real world, it is not a matter whether it is wrong or right but the power behind who say it is right or wrong. At the moment, we regret to inform you that we have not yet take your opinion on high priority of our consideration because it is hard to consider an opinion from the bunch people who has nothing and achieved only dreaming in this real life ??.
However, please do no be pessimistic keep up your hard work, who knows some day we may consider your opinion once you and your God has real power.
There is nothing so special about Bill Gate, he is just a good businessman and donate a small percentage of his wealth to the poor. There are more than thousand people doing better than Bill Gate in term of charity. We consider quality of charity is not measured based on amount of dollars spend by the donator but it is measured based on percentage of wealth for donation compared to total wealth of the donator.
Pak Patung please give opportunity our young member to pride about himself that he is doing some thing good for humanity while actually he was only re-inventing the wheel
Pak Sighjay,
Who care with Saddam, if Bush managed to kill saddam without bloodsheed of innocent Iraqi we may consider Bush is Our Next Caliphate
Regards,
Servant of the truth -
BrotherMouzone says:
@Oigal
I would like to nominate this as the most confused, contradictory statement on IM this year.
I don’t know, fella. I suspect you would find some stiff competition on these pages…
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@ Donny
why canât someone from muslims stated that âSwitzerlandâs ban on minaret should not be a controversy, we still have so many things to do to fix the image of Islamâ
Again referring to Muslims as if they are just one big blob of people equally responsible for each other’s actions.
Indonesian radicals once wrote that Islam is like a body ⌠hurt one finger, you hurt them all ⌠so if a hand cuts other peopleâs hand ⌠naturally the whole body MUST be responsible ⌠even though youâre the feet, for example
So again, what the Indonesian radical says stands for every Muslim? I don’t think that works, somehow.
Then you wheel out that old (long proven inaccurate) chestnut. Muslims never protest about Islamic terrorism.
donât see any muslims doing the same about atrocities their comrades done âŚ
Here are some examples of Muslims protesting about islamic atrocities. Which they never do, apparently.
Indonesia’s Muslims condemn Bali terrorist attack
Scholars Call Attacks a Distortion of Islam
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism
That last one is a nice collection of prominent Muslims declarations against the 9/11 attacks.
This was just after a brief scan of teh internets. There are hundreds more examples of muslims condemning the evil acts of the deranged few among their ranks.
So sorry to let the facts get in the way of some good old-fashioned paint-brush prejudice.
(BTW – @ Pak Patung – not too sure what your policy on external links is now or whether I fall foul of it but feel free to remove the links if they are in breach).
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Indonesiaâs Muslims condemn Bali terrorist attack
Scholars Call Attacks a Distortion of Islam
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism
That last one is a nice collection of prominent Muslims declarations against the 9/11 attacks.
It’s pretty sad when that’s all one can find though. I spent the last 20 odd minutes looking for condemnation of Saddam by Islamic leaders, and they’re thin on the ground. Or Islamic governments condemning Iran’s behaviour against it’s own people, over the past three decades.
There are literally tens of thousands of links to to non-Islamic governments and organisations making a noise about atrocities around the world with out reference to whether they’re committed by Muslims, Christians, or any other belief or creed. It takes an awful lot to get any reaction from Islamic governments and I note that all your examples above are reactions to extreme situations, like 9/11.
Where were the condemnations of the Taliban and the way women were abused and treated or the torture in Afghanistan before 9/11. There was lots of noise in the west and non-Muslim nations, but absolute silence from Saudi Arabia, from Indonesia, from Malaysia.
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@Sighjay
Itâs pretty sad when thatâs all one can find though.
A little sneaky to suggest that there were only three examples, old fella. I said that there were hundreds more examples but I didn’t think Mr Patung would be too keen on my listing all of them in my comment.
So, you’ve spotted the fact that Muslim governments are hypocritical and not even handed in their condemnation. Big surprise.
Still doesn’t mean that Swiss Muslims shouldn’t have the right to build a recognizable place of worship, whichever way you try to spin it.
As I said before, just because other nations are behaving in a backward manner, does not mean that we abandon the principles that define us as developed nations.
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A little sneaky to suggest that there were only three examples, old fella. I said that there were hundreds more examples but I didnât think Mr Patung would be too keen on my listing all of them in my comment.
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to suggest there were only three, but, having spent a fair while searching these out, the problem is there isn’t an awful lot more. The 9/11 and Bali events were extra ordinary events, the first globally, the second in SEA, and both elicited an extra ordinary response. There are of course various organisations such as Muslim Women for Human Rights etc but these are almost all based in non-Islamic nations and are peopled by people educated there. Then you have Amnesty and HRW, both largely non-Islamic in nature.
But search for Islamic governments or organisations based in Islamic countries criticising Sudan’s genocide or Iran, Iraq or Egyptian torture, and you find little. Where were the concrete Islamic offers of troops to try and stabilise the horror of post invasion Iraq where Muslims were killing Muslims in huge numbers and the wisdom seemed to be that it was one thing that may have made a difference? Where was the Islamic response to the Iranian comments on the holocaust? I can give you a thousand instances where Islam was silent, all far more horrifying than the Swiss vote.
Still doesnât mean that Swiss Muslims shouldnât have the right to build a recognizable place of worship, whichever way you try to spin it.
As I said before, just because other nations are behaving in a backward manner, does not mean that we abandon the principles that define us as developed nations.
Which I agree with. The Swiss should be ashamed (and many are), but the willingness of Indonesia to leap at them when silent on the rest is shameful.
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Oigal says:
Still doesnât mean that Swiss Muslims shouldnât have the right to build a recognizable place of worship, whichever way you try to spin it.
Well its not uncommon to have building regulations to preserve the “cultural look” of an area, city place. Not like they banned the actual place of worship.
Of course, there the Islamic point of view can be seen as well, but seriously how can anyone in Indonesia expect to be taken with anything but great hoots of laughter with their record of church permit approvals (and Indonesia is one of the more liberal nasties in this regard). Tell us do the Swiss Muslims have to pay protection money to ensure the safety of their place of worship or is some numbskull going tell us it doesn’t happen here as a matter of course.
Yup, case could be made from other liberal nations that Swiss are over reacting (not my view) but anything from any Islamic nation that I can think of is nothing but hold your stomach and laugh in their face material.
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Well its not uncommon to have building regulations to preserve the âcultural lookâ of an area, city place. Not like they banned the actual place of worship.
In that case, surely a case by case scenario is appropriate.
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Ross says:
Actually, sighjay, I recall that some twit legislator wanted to name a street in Jakarta after Badass Hussein, PDI-P rep, I think. Don’t know if it happened, but all kinds of people here clearly preferred the rapist and rapacious regime of the Ba’ath Party to the Coalition, for the imbecilic reason that Saddam’s gangsters were Muslim.
I supported the liberation of Iraq but many nice guys and gals I know did not – however, their views were based on serious moral or political or strategic matters, not sectarian solidairity. -
Actually, sighjay, I recall that some twit legislator wanted to name a street in Jakarta after Badass Hussein
PKS? It wasn’t that long ago they wanted to give Suharto a Hero of Indonesia gong. I wonder what the tipping point in bodies was to raise him to that level? Still, they gave Kissinger a peace prize.
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andy says:
Geezz Cukurungan, you are indeed (accordingly to the will of the people) a very unpopular man. To think you could attract so many thumbs down on a website which mostly attracts Indonesians and Indonesian admirers (your very own people) shows the sheer lunacy in your views. And I thought I was unpopular!
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You are actually unpopular andrea. Just count the red thumb. See? Let me get my friends.
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Now the French are at it (again) – Presiden Sarkozy Tolak Kewarganegaraan Perempuan Berjilbab
Presiden Nicolas Sarkozy menegaskan tidak akan memberikan kewarganegaraan bagi imigran muslim yang mengenakan burqa atau jilbab.
The local papers often get these things wrong and I very much doubt the atau jilbab bit. And actually the only quote they’ve got talks about men
“Para pria muslim yang memaksa istri mereka mengenakan burqa tidak selayaknya mendapatkan kewarganegaraan Perancis”
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wong cilik says:
buat bu oigal kekasih gelapnya pak ahmad sudarsono yang berbahagia
And what models of decency, justice and fairness they are?
In the context of justice, westerners use concepts one size fit all
For example, man & woman, rich & poor, normal and disable people, all have equal right.while the Qur’an uses two concepts: “‘adl” and “ihsan”.
Adl is to be equal, neither more nor less. ihsan means, restoring the balance by making up a loss or deficiency”In order to understand this concept, it is necessary to understand the nature of the ideal society or community (“ummah”) envisaged by the Qur’an. The word “ummah” comes from the root “umm”, or “mother”. The symbols of a mother and motherly love and compassion are also linked with the two attributes most characteristic of God, namely, “Rahim” and “Rahman”, both of which are derived from the root “rahm”, meaning “womb”. The ideal “ummah” cares about all its members just as an ideal mother cares about all her children, knowing that all are not equal and that each has different needs. While showing undue favour to any child would be unjust, a mother who gives to a “handicapped” child more than she does to her other child or children, is not acting unjustly but exemplifying the spirit of “ihsan” by helping to make up the deficiency of a child who need special assistance in meeting the requirements of life. “Ihsan”, thus, shows God’s sympathy for the disadvantaged segments of human society (such as women, orphans, slaves, the poor, the infirm, and the minorities)
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buat pak vijay yang dulu bijaksana
Where were the condemnations of the Taliban and the way women were abused and treated or the torture in Afghanistan before 9/11. There was lots of noise in the west and non-Muslim nations, but absolute silence from Saudi Arabia, from Indonesia, from Malaysia.
I can give you a thousand instances where Islam was silent,
some time silent is the right thing to do for muslim
Allah does not like speaking evil publicly unless one has been wronged. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. qurâan (4:148)
(Even though you have the right to speak evil if you are wronged), if you keep doing good -whether openly or secretly -or at least pardon the evil (then that is the attribute of Allah). Allah is All-Pardoning and He has all the power to chastise. Qurâan (4:149)
God told the Muslims that He did not consider speaking ill of people as praiseworthy. No doubt the persons had been wronged, and if a wronged person speaks out against a wrong-doer, he is quite justified in doing so. Even though this is a person’s right, it is more meritorious to continue to do good both in public and in private, and to ignore the misdeeds of others. For one’s ideal should be to try to approximate to God’s way as far as possible. God with whom one wants to be close is lenient and forbearing; He provides sustenance even to the worst criminals and seeks mitigating circumstances in even the most serious offences. In order to become close to God, one ought to be generous in spirit and full of tolerance.
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buat bu oigal kekasih gelapnya pak ahmad sudarsono yang berbahagia
Pikir tidak bisa baca jagan goblok. Don’t emabarrass yourself (might pay to change your nick name as well, you certainly don’t represent them)
The ideal âummahâ cares about all its members just as an ideal mother cares about all her children
I think the world has seen enough of how the “ummah” cares for another. Not been reading about pakistan, sudan, iran lately…Yea yea I know its some elses fault ..yawn..
No one is talking about disabled children, we are talking about murdering your countrymen and the deathly (no pun intended) silence. How about the information coming from Iran of those “ummah” who dared to speak up against oppression, nothin to say about the rapes, murder, death sentances??though this is a personâs right, it is more meritorious to continue to do good both in public and in private, and to ignore the misdeeds of others. For oneâs ideal should be to try to approximate to Godâs way as far as possible
Ah so you are withdrawing all your comments about the west, the swiss or the jews (pick your frenzy of the moment)? Equally it is so sad to see that you believe the wholesale murder of muslims is not worthy of comment.
Tolerance…oh please………
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ET says:
some time silent is the right thing to do for muslim
Especially when it concerns the crimes and misdeeds of other muslims, right? Because introspection might hurt the ummah, isn’t it?
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You are actually unpopular andrea. Just count the red thumb. See? Let me get my friends.
Actually it is a badge of honour to earn the wrath of morons like you dora. The fact you would click on or get friends to my thumbs down shows I have you on the run. It is becoming an unhealthy obsession really. I notice everytime I post you are following close behind. Sure you don’t have a crush on me? I worry when you dream about me you need to change the sheets.
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Saw in the Jakarta Post yesterday that somewhere up north in Indonesia two churches, one catholic, one Protestant, have been stopped in mid-construction because the local morons don’t like other faiths having a place to worship.
The usual garbage will no doubt be trotted out, viz. it’s ‘upsetting’ or it causes ‘unease.’
How can people going to worship peacefully upset you? I reckon disease, not unease is the problem. Mental illness!
You only need 60 non-followers (i.e. in this case Muslims) to get approval for building a church, so out of a population of thousands of Muslims, not even 1% are prepared to put their names to tolerance.
And those dorks in Europe are ‘upset’ with the Swiss people?!? -
Ha ha ha…. stumbled upon this, really funny, on swiss “neutrality”:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-3-2009/oliver-s-travels—switzerland
—–
Oliver: Just rank these countries in terms of dickesness? Albania, Mexico, India.
Swiss Ambassador: All are fine countries.
Oliver: I’ll give you a clue, Mexico (?)
—–Brilliant!
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I would like to nominate this as the most confused, contradictory statement on IM this year.
And what models of decency, justice and fairness they are? đ