Terrorism, Poverty & Islam
Oct 6th, 2006, in News, Opinion, by PatungPoverty is the cause of terrorism, says a former Muhammadiyah chairman, not Islam.
Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif, former Muhammadiyah chairman, speaking at an interfaith gathering, the “Simposium Antarbudaya dan Antaragama”, held under the auspices of APEC, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation group, or Organisasi Kerjasama Ekonomi Asia Pasifik, in Yogyakarta on the 5th said that terrorism, in all its forms, is an enemy of all countries in the world, not just America, and that the roots of it could be found in poverty. Therefore to combat it he advised poverty reduction programs, and also corruption reduction because corruption contributed to the woes of the poor.
Since the 9/11 attacks on America many people in the world associated terrorism with Islam. These people were mentally defective, he said, because a reading of Islam’s holy book, the Quran, would reveal that Islam was a benevolent force:
Only those who have an abnormal outlook could come to a conclusion like that. In a verse of the holy Koran it is said that one who kills a single human being kills all of mankind.
It is not reported whether he then quoted any other, less pleasing sounding, verses from the Quran.
He went on to say that these days there was a perception that terrorist or extremist ideology was spreading rapidly and easily among Indonesians. Among the poor, he said, the simplistic ideas of the radicals found fertile ground.
It is also uncertain whether he produced any research or proof for the claim that terrorism is linked to poverty. More and better jobs, better education, the owning of more television sets and luxuries seems to be Maarif’s solution to the problem. (Antara & Media Indonesia.) There is substantial evidence to say he is quite wrong however.
Maarif likely suffers from the platitude-without-thought syndrome that frequently affects Indonesian intellectuals. Most terrorists in fact come from middle class, educated backgrounds (science and engineering usually) and they are people who see their world, their traditions, their power over women and other men, crumbling around them under the force of western cultural imperialism and globalisation, people who also view the west’s power and arrogance as an insult to God. Islamic terrorism is more a sign that Islam, in its traditional forms, is dying, it is a fight against this death, a fight against those who are seen as bringing it about. Poverty is a minor causative factor, the poor have enough worries with their daily struggles, religious fanaticism does not affect them nearly as much as it does the middle classes.
If poverty is not to blame, and we see that there are other cultures in the world which are also being destroyed by globalisation, but whose people do not have the same tendency to violent resistance as Muslims do then we are left to return to Islam itself. Islam is what Islam does, and there is no “true Islam“, which is impossible by itself but is compounded by the fact that Islam has no central authority, any man may be the “one who stands in front”, or imam. Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif, who no doubt is kind to small animals and children, is a true Muslim. But so is Osama Bin Laden, so are the head-choppers in Iraq. Those who quote “there is no compulsion in religion” and those who quote “smite at their necks” are both true Muslims. Islam is so problematic in the world because it allows for such widely variant interpretations, and there is no way of establishing one over the other, except perhaps by massive force and repression.
In particular Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif is averting his eyes from the concept of jihad and its connection to terrorism. If challenged he will likely say that jihad is only permissible for defensive purposes and those who believe otherwise have corrupted Islam’s teachings (but of course which Islam?). This is ahistorical but is as legitimate an interpretation as many others. But it is psychologically shallow. Most great religions in the world require some sort of sacrifice on the part of believers in order for them to gain the final reward. Often it is a simple quid pro quo equation – sacrifice your life in this world in order to gain it in the next. For Christians this sacrifice is done viscerally, by association with Christ crucified. For Muslims the sacrifice is done literally, through jihad. Islam is indeed connected to terrorism. It is Professor Ahmad Syafii Maarif who is mentally lacking, or perhaps just not courageous enough to look at things in ways that would lead to discomfort and angst for his good self.
44 Comments on “Terrorism, Poverty & Islam”
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Mohammed Khafi says:
There is neither Islamist terrorism nor Hindu terrorism . Nor is there Christian terrorism or Buddhist terrorism for that matter! Terrorism has nothing to do with religion. It is a phenomenon which is secular in nature.
Osama bin Laden may be hero to some misguided Muslims but no genuine followers of Islam will believe that Allah would forgive him for turning the World Trade centre into hell for thousands of innocent American citizens.
The basic precepts of Islam are the same as the Christian and Jewish religions, unfortunately, those in the case of maintream Islam have been subverted and their religion is no longer based on Al Quran. What they practice is no longer Islam.
Terrorism is based on brainwashing, it has no connection with poverty apart from the fact that it is easier to find people who are succeptible to brainwashing from the uneducated poor, who are uneducated purely because they are poor. The only ways to combat terrorism are to remove the brainwashers, those who are poisoning the minds of thousands of young people (Abu Bakar Bashir is one example who springs to mind, how do we as a country justify letting him have a school?), and also boost education, encouraging discussion, debate and free thinking.
If you remove a people’s faith as suggested by Ismael, you will end up with complete moral degradation, in actual fact that is what seems to be happening in the mainstream Islamic world, where people have rejected Al Quran. They seem to have lost their direction.
I am not suggesting an ascetic Islamic revival, just a return to the goodness which is contained within its pages.
I realise that Ismail and many others will say that Al Quran is violent and filled with hatred, but that is only the case if it is approached in that way. This statement could also be applied to the Bible, which if approached in the wrong way, can also be shown to be violent, sexist and racist.
If you are a person of faith, follow your faith with a kind heart and goodness, do not try to disposses others of their belief, and work hard to try and understand other peoples paths to God.
If you are not a person of faith may God have mercy on your soul.Peace
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Ismail says:
Mohammed Khafi, thank you, it’s always nice reading your post, first let me tell you quite frankly, its not true that the way you chose to apreach a book will determine what you will find in it. I believe that even if you hate for the bible and you are willing to learn precisely what its massage is you will find the truth. the central theme of the Christianity is Christ and he preached love even when he his firm against sin, the massage is the same
john 3:16 for God so love the world that he gave……… not a Christian world but the sinful unbelieving world
Muslims scholar love to dash the bible and Christianity but you can’t change its massage, not hate but love,even when persecuted. not hate but love.you can’t see anywhere in the bible where Jesus says we should kill our enemy but he said pray for them.
he told Christians not to fight for him that he will defend himself. this massage is enduring that is why Christians don’t bomb or kill for the sake of GOD or his Christ. the voilence in the bible are narrative not instructive and there was not war of conversion in the bible.
therefore you don’t have Christian blowing up planes and train and homes and suicide bombing JUST LOOK AT THE AMISH SHOOTING they just forgave the gunman’s family because that was what Christ demanded. i wonder for a moment if the Amish were Muslims, this would end differently.Islam on the other hand tells you to kill, the voilence in the Quran are open ended, the hate for the unbeliever is palpable and real, you can feel it and its demand for jihad is evident plainly “you can know a tree by its fruit”.
if you want me to give you verses i will you can even count them.
let me give another example that will explain my point. Jesus was and still is against poligamy as far as he his concerned it’s a sin, therefore countries with Christianity as its foundation insist on monogany because the bible is quite insistent on it.
but look at country is the Quran as its foundation allow polygamy and even “muta” in some cases.
the truth that both books support is unchanged, even when you are biased you can only chose to accept or reject its
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Mohammed Khafi, please the read the above but its not true that Islam and Christianity preach the same thing cause the different on all counts.
marriage, Islam its possible to marry for wives in Christianity Christ insist on one.
heaven, in Islam there is sex and wine in heaven in Christianity there is no such just street paved with Gold.
there is no such thing as Jihad in the Christian faith.
Women enjoy equal status in Christian that is why a man can’t marry more that one.
Isaac is the acceptable Heir of abraham and ismeal is not.
Christ Jesus is the central theme in Christianity and mohammed simply don’t exit and as far the bible is concern such people like him are false prophet and a fake inspite of what Muslim scholars says about him being in the bible.
in Christianity Christ Jesus the messiah died on the cross in Islam he did not die.
is Christianity the death for Jesus gave us clean slate, but the Allah in Islam just forgive or you go to heaven when you good deed outwieght your bad deed.
in Christianity your adopted is son is the same a son giving birth to by you but using the zaid/zainab story and what Allah said the same is not true for Islam.
in Christianity you can pray in you language you don’t have to change to another language because all language have the same rating with God
i can on and on. the fact is that Islam and Christian do not converge at all in any way.
that must lead any reader to wonder if they are the same god in the first place.because they are radically different.
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Ismail,
If you wish to approach the bible looking for violence it is there:
Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.
Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
And as for your loving Jesus:
Matthew
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned “with unquenchable fire.” 3:10, 12Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commit’s adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 7:19
“The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: “Let the dead bury the dead.” 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither “receive” the disciples nor “hear” their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few “prophecies” in the Bible that has actually come true). “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.” 10:21
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and “able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” 10:28
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” 10:34-36
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up “all that offend” and they “shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it’s better to be “maimed” than to suffer “everlasting fire.” 18:8-9
“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors.” 18:34
In the pArable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn’t have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and “cast him into the outer darkness” where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 22:12-13
Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It’ll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
God will come when people least expect him and then he’ll “cut them asunder.” And “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 24:50-51
The servant who kept and returned his master’s talent was cast into the “outer darkness” where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 25:30
Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an “everlasting fire.” 25:41
Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46
MarkJesus explains why he speaks in pArables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12
Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13
Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10
Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49
Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don’t will be damned. 16:16
LukeGod strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel’s words. 1:20
If you also want more there are plently more. But finding them and showing them would not lead to a greater understanding between religions, it would lead to divisions and more violence, that is not my aim, unlike yours I believe.
For me it is all summed up in Al Quran ” Any who believes in God, believes in the day of judgement and does good deeds has nothing to fear from God”
I am trying to find a path on which we can all walk together.Peace
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Mohammed Khafi, thank you for the verses you quote, not a single one of the this verse are instruction for voilence they are narrative and not instructive, as it seem to me that you needed most of them to be violent.
for instance you quote the following
“Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13
Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10
Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49
Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don’t will be damned. 16:16
LukeGod strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel’s words. 1:20″
even though verses are badly quoted non of them instruct violent on human beings by another because they don’t believe what you do. please let me show what an instruction looks like “Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” this is certainly an instruction and Jihadist use this regularly.
then you quote old testament even though as Christians we have a new convenant, these verses are narrative of what happened not an instruction. please not that i really do appreciate what you are trying to do and i respect it, but it will not work because Islam is completely against the God of the bible in every way. and popular Islam want to subjugate all others. you can only reform Islam by looking closely at the nature of God in the bible.
Jesus says by there fruit you shall know them. just look at Islam worldwide it tells you what book teaches violence.
thank you
please the truth is not far from you
you know i thought of writing a comment on every one of the verse you quote but i realise its not worth it.
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Ismail,
I will never believe as you do because I believe that there is only one God, and only one religion, I believe that all the God given scriptures have some value, although it may not at first seem apparent. I believe that Gods Scriptures apply to all humankind. I am trying to find a common path for all who believe in God.
I think that your beliefs are exclusionist and to be honest with you, any religion which preaches exclusionism is not from what I believe to be God. Your belief that the only way to salvation is through Jesus is just as ridiculous as the mainstream Muslim concept that anyone who doesn’t profess “shahada” is destined for the fires of hell. The Jews being just as bad believing themselves to be Gods chosen people to the exclusion of all others.
I think that you have all corrupted Gods, teachings if you believe that you have an exlusive right, and any who don’t share you views have no right.
Peace
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Mohammed Khafi,
yes i do believe that the only way to God is through Jesus alone and I am not ashamed of that but, the different me and those of Muslim faith is that no one is excluded because John 3:16 says for God so love the world…… that means everyone.
if you want to love him back you must deal with the sin question and that is where Christ Jesus comes in. please do realise that the choice is yours, i can only share that with you.
Again no one can seat on the fence, human goodness can’t be good enough because its relative and it changes but look at Jesus he his perfect in all ways and what he did and said becomes the reference for goodness please do study him in the gospels.
finally i have had excellent correspondence with you and do believe that you want to please God and that is why I have bothered to write back, you do appear to me to have a good heart,(no patronising just the truth) i pray you find Him(God) i will not be responding to u directly anymore because I am afriad you might not be comfortable with my position, but do have a lovely life. -
Ismail,
Like my friend Hassan, you focus too much power on your Prophet, religion is all about worshipping God, the singular unexplainable presence at the core of all our beings. I also believe that you are a good person, but somewhat misled. All will be revealed on Judgement Day!
Peace
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Bas says:
“Terrorism has nothing to do with religion. It is a phenomenon which is secular in nature”.
What a good joke! It’s incredible how people can be blind and say such illogical, far from reality, things to defend their religious beliefs.
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Molisan Tono says:
khafi my friend,
this the first time i disagree with you mate…i quote your saying:
“Jesus explains why he speaks in pArables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12 ”I don’t find this written like this in Mark as you mentioned above. especially the last sentence… to confuse people so they will go to hell…
my friend, Jesus does not plan to “visit” earth to throw you to hell, He simple do His job spreading the Words as His Servant have done their work before. His time is final, if no one will hear His voice, then the will be no return fron their path to hell… as I believe it too.
it surprise me that you find it strange to your understanding khafi. Jesus always talk with pArable… mystery to those who doesn’t believe… hidden enigma for those who lack of knowledge.
you absolutely not one of them my friend. let’s end this now, Jesus is here for everybody.
and one more thing…
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below.
Matthew 8:32
“And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.”do you think worth if Jesus cast out the devils and send them to other human? learn carefully my friend… that demons called Legiun… means many of them. they reside in one man body, if those demons step in many human lives, then bye bye humans… and Jesus is murderer of man.
pigs definitely expendable than human right?
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Miss Indo 07 says:
For Ismail n Tono,,
I think this is a lesson we should take,,
if we don’t want ppl think negative abt our religion,,dont ever think bad about other ppl religion,,
pls always believe that every religion teach u good things,,it just depend on the people,,the way we think,,just like what KhafI said,,
Once again,,terrorism has nothin to do with religion,,
they just use it,,use the religion to make bad things look good,,it’s all becoz of brainwashing,,
I have a lot of Muslim friends,,n they rnt terrorists,,
n sumetimes even i feel annoyed with some Christians or cath who r soooooo fanatic,,
pls,,dont b fanatic,,becoz that just will blind ur eyes,,
peace for everyone -
Molisan Tono,
My friend, you have misread my post, if you look carefully, you will see that I was explaining that you can if you wish, find things in all of God’s Scriptures which can be seen as violent, just as Ismael was doing with Al Quran.
It is how you approach God’s words and apply them in your daily life which dictates how you learn from them. If you read with hatred in your soul, you will find hatred, if you read with love and tolerance in your soul, you will find love and tolerance.
My apologies if I have upset you, but I was using those verses to illustrate a point, not trying to denegrate Nabi Isa. It says in Al Quran ” . . . treat all of my Prophets equally” That is what I try to do.
Peace
Makin_kolot-dan_buta_loe,
I think you need to broaden you horisons, your views seem somewhat blinkered.
A quote from Ali Ashgar Engineer:
Thus a truly religious person is truthful, non-violent, just, respects equality, loves all, is compassionate and tolerant whether she/he performs certain designated rituals or not. In fact rituals in symbolic sense are instruments for realising these values. But these rituals become ends in themselves and hence religion becomes dogmatic, static and indifferent to human suffering and in some cases even cause of suffering. We should strive to promote value-oriented and not ritual-oriented religion in the world. It will be a great boon for humanity.
The rest of his article is to be found here, If you want to broaden your horisons that is.
If you want some examples of secular terrorist groups how about these:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/perspective/values.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_organisations
Anybody who uses violence or intimidation or illegal acts to further their religious ideals have strayed so far from the path of God that they no longer deserve to be called religious, they are sinners and disbelievers in the absolutely worst sense.
Peace
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Daniel says:
Mohammed Khafi,
You just spat out a list of things that you think Jesus said without giving regard to context or meaning. That reminds me of Ahmad Deedat (the South African cleric) who claims that the Bible has been “altered” by Christians, and his “proof” is that “some of the words are written in red”. There is the logic in that?
Whenever someone quotes a scripture from the Quran to prove a point, I always give Islam the benefit of the doubt and reference that scripture myself. I have alot of Arabic speaking colleagues who are happy to read particular scriptures for me, and then give me the translation. Infact, that is a key to successful living. Look at contexts, investigate for yourself, and seek the truth.
Whe scriptures that you just “quoted” show that you have done none of those things.
I would like to answer all of your accusations, but because I see that you put so little care into making them, I choose not to put time and effort into a rebuttal. And yes, you did not put effort into those accusations. You quoted a scripture – Mark 25:46. There is no Mark 25:46. Mark only goes to the 16th chapter.
There are others which you quoted that have been misquoted completely. You literally changed the words and the scripture references.
Your actions are causing you to lose your dignity. How would you feel if I came here and said that your prophet said stuff that he didn’t? You wouldn’t like that, and that would show a complete lack of respect from me. So why then do you perform that activitiy yourself?
My challenge to you is this: read the Gospel of Matthew from start to end – slowly. One chapter per day. And pray to Allah and ask him to reveal himself to your heart. Next, go and make friends with a practising Christian and ask him to explain the scriptures to you. If you are going to use scripture to try and prove your points, it is best that you know their meaning, and that you can atleast quote them accurately.
Sorry if my words are harsh. I mean no disrespect. Mohammed, all the best for you on your journey.
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Mohammed, I just read your comment to Molisan Tono and I apologise.
As soon as I read your post I made my reply, without noticing that you had already explained your reason to Molisan Tono.
My apologies.
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No Problem Daniel, we all sometimes act on impulse when the better course of action is to reflect on what we should do, I am no different from anybody else in that respect.
Peace
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hello MISS INDO 07, thank you for your post, but often i here people say “fanatical Christian” what they mean usually is that, the Christian in question love to talk about Jesus, then yes I am fanatical i love to share his truth and love, trust me I have no capacity for hate, if i do I am not Christ like therefore not a Christian.
I just love to tell about what Christ did for me and often if we as Christian tell it as it is, people do get change, for example if a Muslim radical get to know Jesus all the hate, they harbour just slip away and they just love and love more. that is the value Christianity teaches.
you talked about your nice “Muslim friends” yes I have a lot of them too but i tell them about Jesus, because, its nice Muslims that change and become more Islamic and radicalised, if you doubt this give your Muslim friends a couple of years you will see what i mean.
More Christian like to stay friends with everybody so we don’t talk about Jesus it makes us look and sound fanatical, its really sad because it means we don’t value him enough and the changes he can make in peoples live.
I have no hate for anyone its practically impossible, i used to be like that but Jesus changed me. please the read the true love story, the GOSPEL.
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Munafikbangetloepade says:
> trust me I have no capacity for hate
BRWAHAHAHAHA…. YEAH RIGHT….
friks…..
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Josef says:
Mohammed Khafi,
You should have a madrassa.
peace to you
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well noted khafi, thanks for correcting my point. i must admit i misread and maybe miscapture the tone… hahaha…
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it ends up,,peace with everyone
nice ^^ -
hopefully d’terror also end up peacfully like in this post miss indo…
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Hassan says:
this time, i agree with that wacko Munafikbangetloepade. as Ismail’s words: “trust me I have no capacity for hate” is the understatement of the century. when did Ismail speak nothing but hate about Islam?
do what you preach Ismail, if you preach love, do it! don’t go around spreading hate to other religions.
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Mohammed Khafi: you said “Like my friend Hassan, you focus too much power on your Prophet, religion is all about worshipping God”. for someone who profess to have a sound knowledge of his religion, you sure use too much assumptions about your own brethren.
1st of all khafi, you do know that using too much negative thinking on other people is not a good thing, don’t you? we usually call it “suudzon”. khafi, you are absoutely true to say that “religion is all about worshipping God”. believe it or not, i and most Muslims never ever worshipped any other than Allah SWT. yes, not even Muhammad (pbuh). when we pray, we never even once thought about Muhammad (pbuh), our minds are strictly to Allah SWT.
we never consider Muhammad (pbuh) to have any power at all, the power of is with Allah SWT alone. the only difference between us is that most Muslims take heed of his sayings and took him as our examples, something you did not do. was following his examples and taking heed of his words is an act of idolatorizing or worshipping?
then who do you take as an example if not your own prophet? some western values? man made values?
btw, I had wrote a reply on your question in the “female circumcision” thread.
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Hassan,
You said:
when we pray, we never even once thought about Muhammad (pbuh), our minds are strictly to Allah SWT.
My friend you cannot even according to your rules profess to being a Muslim without mentioning Prophet Mohammed, what is your Shahadah? what about the rest of Allah Prophets, are we not told by Allah to treat them all equally?
You also said:
we never consider Muhammad (pbuh) to have any power at all, the power of is with Allah SWT alone.
If that is the case, why do your religous preachers and teachers always precede their rules with “according to The Prophet” how often do you hear them say “According to Allah” or “it says in Al Quran”
Just try a little test, make a note of how many rules are according to the Prophet and how many are according to Allah, next time you are listening to one of you religious teachers.You said:
was following his examples and taking heed of his words is an act of idolatorizing or worshipping?
Yes of course it is if you are following something which is not given by Allah in Al Quran, you are effectively taking sources other than Allah for your religious law.
The whole point which you seem to miss here is that Allah says that Al Quran is protected by him, not Sunnah and Hadith.
Allah says His Book is complete, perfect and fully detailed, you by following Sunnah and Hadith are saying it is not.
Peace
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Hassan Says:
“this time, i agree with that wacko Munafikbangetloepade. as Ismail’s words: “trust me I have no capacity for hate” is the understatement of the century. when did Ismail speak nothing but hate about Islam?
do what you preach Ismail, if you preach love, do it! don’t go around spreading hate to other religions”.
The fact i tell it has it is don’t mean i hate, I can’t hate what someone is doing but I don’t have to hate the person.i cn tell my daugther what she did is bad but I can’t hate her. the ideology of Islam is hate, evil and pure subjugation of others, i will not give you past examples just wait a moment Islam will be what Islam is.
Hating a Muslim is a sin and i will not be less a Christian thats what God intends for me to be, but, i do believe that Islam is evil. its make otherwise peaceful people become hater and murderer. just at the Hindu guy in the UK, soon after he became Muslim he could suddenly justify murder. THAT IS ISLAM plain and simple. -
Ismail: you said “the ideology of Islam is hate, evil and pure subjugation of others” that shows your ignorance to other religions. Ismail, Islam had 1,5 billion followers. 1,5 billion people doesn’t embrace a religion that spreads hate and evil. are you saying we have 1,5 billion haters, killers, and evil doers in this world. if what you say is true, than world war will happen.
you also said “i do believe that Islam is evil. its make otherwise peaceful people become hater and murderer”. listen Ismail, you are living in a Muslim dominated country, if all of us are haters and murderers than you’ll surely be dead by now, don’t you think?
think ismali, don’t let prejudice and ignorance (of other religions)overwhelms you!
BTW, spreading hate towards other people and their faith is an act of hate in itself.
Ismail: again, what you said about Islam, THAT IS ISLAM ACCORDING TO ISMAIL. NOT the truth about Islam.
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Hassan, you see i do undertand where you are coming from, but you miss the point altogether, the fact of the matter is that if the ideology Islam is not checked it will definitely consume the world, but you have people who say they are Muslims but reject a whole of it (we hope they reject all of it) because they have retained some of there original culture. but even that is changing, recent survey suggest that 20% of Indonesia Muslims not support jihad against other faiths how sad and unfortunately that is the story everywhere, ordinarily pious people are changing and its rapid the real Islam is becoming visible just last week 16 churches burnt in Nigeria
you said “listen Ismail, you are living in a Muslim dominated country, if all of us are haters and murderers than you’ll surely be dead by now, don’t you think?” but my brother that is the point they have been killing and I am sure its not going to stop because Christian are easy enough to kill. since I am an apostate of Islam I have to be very carefull and that is the truth.
again the problem is not the Muslim person its the ideology that is turning them to what they have become, you can debate it all you want. Muslims “real Islam kind of Muslims” all want saudi Arabia kind of society where Christian can’t even carry there bible, this irrefutable. and jihad ( “and I don’t mean inner struggle kind” ) is the only way to get it.you said again “Ismail: again, what you said abaout Islam, THAT IS ISLAM ACCORDING TO ISMAIL. NOT the truth about Islam.” Nope, sadly I’m afraid it’s all true. you can only know a tree but its fruit and that is what Jesus said. we all can see the fruit of Islam. please watch out for somalia you will see another fruit of Islam it wont be long.
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Ismail: “the tree” of “evil Islam” sure brought about so few fruits. if there is only about 1,5 billion Muslims and about 0,001 percent Muslims who commit rampant violence, then that tree is not productive isn’t it?
lets put it this way, the university where i got my degree had produced tens of thousands of graduates since it’s establishment in the 1950’s and only a few dropouts. and the “school” that produced “haters and murderers” you called Islam had been established here in Indonesia hundreds of years ago, and had hundreds of millions of “students”.
tell me, how come that “school of evil” had only produced a handfull of graduates like the bali bombers and JI members? that is one bad school. if it does teaches “evil” and “murder”, then out of the hundreds of millions of “students” it should already produced at least tens of millions of “graduates”, shouldn’t it?
maybe there is something wrong with your picture, maybe those murderers and killers are just some “dropouts” from the school of peace and love called Islam.
there is no hate and murder in Islam, it’s just Ismail’s paranoid view. if I am a paranoid person then I would fear the Christians, because since the inquisitions, the world wars and now Iraq, people who professed to be Christians (and guided by the holy ghost after their baptising) had commited all those violence on other human beings.
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hello Hassan, first i must disagree with your percentage I am sure its wrong and i can prove it you, In most African country where Islam dominate, they will tell you there is nothing wrong with jihad, alot of them have Osama pictures every where, most of them believe that the Sura 4.89 must be obeyed, its state basically to kill an apostate. in eritia, somalia it’s all the same story, i gave the Indonesian statistic,the figures will get worst, moderate Islam does exsit only in the imagination of peaceful Muslims and sad there number is dwindling, look at the nederlands Muslims are becoming radiclised at amazing rate its scary. the so called moderate have not demonstrated on the street against the so called radicals because in principle there action can be defended by Islam the ‘Holy’ book. now in the Uk, 1 in every 10 Muslims will not report a terror attact if they know it will happen, same allover europe. i can go one these fact can be variefyed its quite sime
you may disagree with me but fact don’t lie. if you can show anywhere in the Quran where Allah loves unbeliever and ask you(Muslims) to love them too and pray for them i will show you 40 where it is stated for you to kill them and not take them as friends. the so called moderates are not looking at this and explaining it to them themselves. Hassan no Christian can get and use the words of Christ to defend any evil deed like murder, conversion by force and all that stuff you mention please stay with the fact. yes people might have done them but not in Christ words and deed. Christian(noun-word) means to be like Christ!! simple. but you can’t say the same about Islam.
call me whatever name you want, but Islam is what Islam does. -
Ismail: you speak about all these “proof” and “facts” about violence done by Muslims. well where are they? all i heard was comentaries by Ismail. no “proofs” and “facts” yet.
about verse 4:88-89, here they are:
4:88 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
4:89 They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.now, it is clear that the “they” in 4:89 referred to the hypocrits (a group of people in mecca in Muhammad’s (pbuh) time who confessed to had accepted Islam, but their actions doesn’t show it) not non Muslims today.
you see Ismail, you are not honest at all when you cherry picked the verses to make your point (like our contemporary politicians) while concealing the facts. you hid verse 88 when you pointed out the 89. now, you have absolutely no credibility at all in my eyes in quoting the verses of the Quran.
you said “you may disagree with me but fact don’t lie.” yes, facts don’t lie, but Ismail does.
Ismail, when will you realize (as Mohammed Khafi as pointed out) that when you read any of God’s scriptures (as i quoted from khafi): “If you read with hatred in your soul, you will find hatred, if you read with love and tolerance in your soul, you will find love and tolerance.” and brother khafI had even pointed out verses in the bible that “sounded” violent.
you also mentioned “yes people might have done them but not in Christ words and deed. Christian(noun-word) means to be like Christ!! simple. but you can’t say the same about Islam.”
that’s not fair, is it? when Christians committed violence, you said they were not done in the name of Christ. but when Muslims committed violence, they were done in the name of Islam? that’s double standard on your part, mate!
anyway, Christians are anyone that confessed tobe a Christian and had been baptised. if Christians means “to be like Christ” then there would be no Christians in this world. i mean, who can imitiate Jesus’ miracles, or even his behavior these days?
the fact Ismail is: people who confessed tobe Christians had commited more violence in this world than anyone else in the last millenia! can i say that Christianity taught them to do that? if your answer is no, then Islam also did not taught Muslims to be violent.
argue as you like about violence by Christians, but Christianity is what Christianity does. look at yourself in the mirror, if you point a finger at the image you see there, it would point at you right back.
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Hassan hello, i read the whole lot and it was insiteful but let me stress some impressions perhaps for the readers so they can see that you have just confirmed what all Muslims believe.
As long as you say and ‘perhaps’ prove that a “Muslim apostate” is an hypocrite, then its okey to KILL the person, maybe i should have explained it like that. where is the mercy, where is forgiveness, the later part says let me quote you correctly…… “But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.”
you can put in any context you want, most of your Muslim buddy killing allover the world can’t and won’t see that context. it further shows that ISLAM is nothing but a death cult. just watch the news not “Muslim news” but world news Muslims in afghan have kiddnapped an italian man they are asking for an a Muslim apsotate in italy to be giving in exchange…. trust me thay don’t want to play with him.
its not true that we don’t have ‘Christ like’ people, you are using the misforturn of Islam’s moral failure to judge all Christians.people are finding the new life in Christ daily and they are living for Christ. you will not believe it but its true, Jesus is making a different in the lives of people even Muslims daily.
you can console yourselve with your knowledge of history in order to validate Islam, but it won’t work because, you or anyone for that matter can’t prove that the WORDS OF CHRIST, lead them to do it.
but you can put the contextual explanation about Islam’s holy book forward, it doesn’t change the fact that it evidently and openly advocate the death of unbelievers and apostate.
finally I am sure that I have not hate in my heart for Muslims, I was one before and i did explain to Mohammed khafi that is not true that its how your aproach to a book particlarly God’s book will determine what you will get from it, in Christianity God expect not love him and care for what he says but he ask you to give him a chance, that why he want you to read the bible, its okey to bring your fear, your hate, and misgiven just read it with open heart. he will gently teach you about Himself.
Comment on “Terrorism, Poverty & Islam”.
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The London 7/7 bombers were not poor, in fact they had good jobs and they were brought up in the UK. It’s hard to help Muslims see it but Islam and its ‘holy’ books are completely responsible. Just a few weeks ago 16 churches were burnt in Nigeria, off course Islam is responsible. When people come into faith its to help them cope with lives issues and poverty is one of them, there are poor Christians and Hindus and sikhs but they don’t go around getting angry and blowing themselves up.