Quran & Hadith

Sep 8th, 2006, in News, by

The validity or otherwise of the hadith tradition and its relationship to the Quran and how Muslims understand their faith.

This post has been created due to the female circumcision thread having gone substantially off-topic. Hopefully, within the spirit of the site, commenters can make some reference to the situation in Indonesia and within Indonesian Muslim organisations such as NU, etc, vis-a-vis their understanding of the hadith tradition.


212 Comments on “Quran & Hadith”

  1. Fawzia says:

    @Muhammad Khafi,

    Another study for you, claiming pregnancy makes women smarter! 😉

    Maybe it is simply that women due to the hormonal changes that take place in their bodies through the course of their lives can be prone to forgetfullness? Not forgetting of course that in an age with no birth control, pregnancy would have been much more common than today.

    Don’t believe this perhaps, or you think it a slur against women? Well read on:

    Study shows pregnancy really does make women forgetful

    or,

    Sex hormone blamed for forgetfulness

    Evil intent against women from Al Quran? I think not. Simply an expedient precaution to prevent misjustice.

    Here it is, you gave me two studies, I thought its only politeness to give you two,never mind that your studies spoke only about the 3rd trimester & monopausal & post hystectomy women while Allah simply said “women” in His clear Quran! 😉

    http://guanabee.com/2009/02/baby-brain-myth

    A new study claims to debunk the accepted notion that pregnancy makes women forgetful- and says instead that they get smarter, post-pregnancy.

    One researcher described what he saw in the studied women as “a surge of memory and learning ability that makes women more vigilant and alert.” So why is it so popular to argue that women’s brains are getting smaller?

    Professor Christensen’s study tested the same 2,500 women before, during and after their pregnancies and found that they performed the same throughout on memory and logic tests, and did just as well as the never-pregnant control group.

    Dr Craig Kinsley ran a similar study and found that giving birth might actually kick-start a surge of mental power. He claims that the hormones that women love to blame for forgetfulness and mood swings are actually causing brain cells to grow. His theory for this is that the hormones released during birth and breast-feeding are actually there to “super-charge” your brain to deal with the challenges of motherhood. According to studies done on rats and primates; “mothers become much braver, are up to five times faster at finding food and have better spatial awareness than those without offspring.” The best part? It might be an irrevocable physical change, leaving you permanently smarter (and better at finding food, woo!)

    So with the two studies which also claim that women become, infact smarter, with repeated pregnancies, maybe Allah should’ve preferred women as witnesses! 😉

    Course, I don’t expect Allah to do that, I know He’d support & affirm sexist views! 😉

  2. draymusa says:

    I was quoting from another book

    This is a clear example of how eager you are to hide and avoid any information that threatens your faith. You say you have read all of her books.

    I have read the whole books written by Mernissi

    All of her books are part of the discussion, and Mernissi’s conclusions about the source of misogyny in Muslim countries is clear, and it contradicts your claims about her work.

    Everyone quotes selectively,

    No, honest discussants do not selectively quote only that material that suppot their position while ignoring that which does not. That is the logical fallacy of stacking the deck. Honest discussants treat all material in its context and look at all relevant evidence.

    Did you give me Umm Waraqa’s example thinking I am some ignoramus? Umm Waraqa led the prayers of her household, she was with men she was allowed to freely interact with. Its not non related men she could lead in prayer.

    Your own posts prove the level of your ignorance, or the level of your dishonesty. Either you do not know, thus you are ignorant. or you know, but you hide the information, and thus are dishonest. Only you can tell us which is the case. The above is a clear example. According to the Hadith, Umm Waraqa did not lead only her immediate relations in prayer, but also a male servant and a male mu’athin the prophet had assigned to her.

    So, where you unaware of that (ignorance) or did you know that and say otherwise anyway (dishonesty)?

    Khadija didn’t have a business only with men in her household

    Another logical fallacy: non-sequitur,we were talking about leading mix-gender prayers, something to which business is not related. Logical fallacies are, by their nature, intended to mislead. This suggests dishonest rather than ignorance.

    I requested: please tell us when Muhammad feared that Khadijah was having sex with others during his absence because, when we read 4:34 literally and in the context of the entire Quran, that is what the verse is about. It is not about any other type of dispute. The verse is telling men what they may do when they fear their wives are sexually unfaithful, and that is limited and does not allow “beating” at all.

    You responded: The verse starts off like this
    4:34: “Men are the maintainers & protectors of women, because Allah has made one to excel the other,& because they spend their money on them…”

    Once again, you are ignoring the discussion and changing the topic, thus engaging in logical fallacies.

    Here is the portion of the verse that discusses what a man is reacting to with the options given at the end of the verse.

    F?l???li??tu Q?nit?tun ??fiž?tun Lilghaybi Bim? ?afiža All?hu Wa Al-L?t? Takh?f?na Nush?zahunna

    First, the word ‘Q?nit?tun’ (masc. Q?nit?n) is used throughout the Qur’an to refer to those who are devoutly obedient to God. So, the righteous women (al-??li??tu) are devoutly obedient to God do what God says in the next part of the phrase ??fiž?tun Lilghaybi Bim? ?afiža All?hu or, “guarding in privacy what God would have them guard.”

    Other verses throughout the Quran stress what believers are to guard. Here is one example.

    Wa Al-Ladh?na Hum Lifur?jihim ??fiž?na ‘Ill? `Alá ‘Azw?jihim [those who guard their genitals except from their spouses]

    (23:5-6)

    When we read 4:34 in light of these and similar verses, the meaning becomes clear. This in turn clarifies the what the rest of 4:34 is talking about. The steps listed are the husband’s options in response to fear of the wife’s sexual infidelity.

    Earlier, you claimed that Khadija should be punished according to 4:34, so I ask again, when did Muhammad fear she was sexually unfaithful to him during his absence?

  3. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    You certainly like to blow a smokescreen to obfuscate your deceptions and/or lies don’t you? Please try to be suscinct, and to the point in future, unless you are afraid that it will make your purpose here too obvious.

    I will keep to one issue at a time!

    You said:

    Muhammad or Allah didn’t say that its pregnant or menstruating women, he simply said women. If Allah’s book is as clear as all that, He should’ve made that clear as well.

    If a woman is not pregnant when witnessing the agreement, who is to say that she will not be at some time later, possibly when being asked to bear witness?

    You said:

    So you see, there are plenty of other studies, showing how, contrary to becoming less capable, women become more capable during & after pregnancy. However, its natural thai Islam will not like such studies & cite such studies.

    We are not discussing a womans mental capabilities, we are discussing MEMORY, The article clearly states that memory was increased in pregnant rats and mice but said :

    Specifically, the pregnant women showed:
    • increased visual acuity
    • improved sense of smell

    and later in the article:

    in fact, parenting only seems to contribute to a woman’s brain power, allowing her to become:
    • increasingly motivated
    • less fearful
    • more empathetic
    • better able to multitask and prioritize

    No mention of increased memory for human mothers, the article also states something you choose to ignore or suppress:

    Many women report symptoms of memory loss and forgetfulness throughout their pregnancies. In fact, about 50% of pregnant women admit to episodes of absentmindedness, particularly in the third trimester. You may find your self misplacing your keys or temporarily losing your glasses; some women report missing scheduled appointments or even forgetting information that they learned just hours before. This type of memory loss is often referred to as short-term memory loss and may be the result of:

    •lack of restful sleep during pregnancy
    •trying to learn a lot of information in a short span of time
    •general pregnancy discomfort

    You said:

    This study refers repeatedly to the third trimester, not any other time. Even if pregnancy was very common, in the none months of pregnancy, third trimester is simply one third of it!

    The study mentions the third trimester repeatedly because that was one of the trimesters of pregnancy when tests were carried out, if you look you will see plainly it says first and third trimesters not simply third. It also says “The mean index score for combined memory measurement was 10 points lower in pregnant women compared to the control group.” clearly indicating that both the first and third trimester groups showed impaired memory, to acheive a mean one has to have more than one set of data.

    You said:

    The next study is about post menopausal women, & women who’ve had their ovaries removed for some reason! Its not about general reproductive aged women at all.Even the study acknowledges this.

    You continued in attenpt to ridicule the argument:

    Ostensibly, in Muhammad’s time, it would be near impossible to have ovaries surgically removed, due to primitive medical sciences. The studies say that women’s brains actually respond positively due to the hormone oestrogen, & in case of post menopausal women only or if the organ’s been surgically removed for some women, does it harm women.

    Read the article again, it is about oestrogen deprived women, included in that group are of course those who have had their ovaries removed or those who are being treated for uterine tumours, but for the vast majority of women this condition is brought about by menopause. or will you now try and suggest that there were no menopausal women at the time of The Prophet?

    You said:

    Life expectancy in Muhammad’s time wasn’t very high, add maternal mortality, old women would be quite a minority.

    Thank you Fawzia, another good reason for two female witnesses!

    Thank you for your second article Fawzia, did you bother to read it, part of it says:

    For one, there may be some truth to the idea that your brain function is semi-impaired during the nine months of pregnancy- but not from “brain shrinkage.” One Australian researcher, Helen Christensen, suggests that it comes down to sleep deprivation and suggestibility: “Perhaps women notice minor lapses in mental ability and then attribute it to being pregnant because that is the most significant thing in their mind at the time. Or sleep deprivation could mask the positive cognitive effects.”

    Draymusa thought that you were either ignorant or dishonest, I would add deceitful!

  4. draymusa says:

    I was quoting from another book,

    Yes, this is just one more example of ihow you ignore what you must avoid to save your faith. Yet, we are discussing all of Mernissi’s works:

    I have read the whole books written by Mernissi

    You claim to have read the whole of her books, yet you avoid the conclusions she draws from her lifetime of study because those conclusions do not suit your interests and challenge your faith.

    Everyone quotes selectively,

    No, honest discussants look at all relevant information within an entire context and do not hide information when it does not support their view.

    Did you give me Umm Waraqa’s example thinking I am some ignoramus? Umm Waraqa led the prayers of her household, she was with men she was allowed to freely interact with. Its not non related men she could lead in prayer.

    Only you can tell us if the demonstrably false and misleading information you post is due to ignorance on your part, or to dishonesty. The above is a good example of false and misleading information. According to the Hadith, Umm Waraqa led males not related to her in prayer. These included a servant and a mu’adhin that the prophet had assigned to her.

    Khadija didn’t have a business only with men in her household

    Logical fallacy: non sequitur and red herring.

    You claimed that Khadija should be punished according to 4:34. I requested:

    Please tell us when Muhammad feared that Khadijah was having sex with others during his absence because, when we read 4:34 literally and in the context of the entire Quran, that is what the verse is about. It is not about any other type of dispute. The verse is telling men what they may do when they fear their wives are sexually unfaithful, and that is limited and does not allow “beating” at all.

    You responded:

    The verse starts off like this
    4:34: “Men are the maintainers & protectors of women, because Allah has made one to excel the other,& because they spend their money on them…”

    This is part of the verse is not the part that addresses the situation to which a man’s reactions are limited by the steps at the end of the verse. You are either ignorant of the relevant portion of the verse, or you are intentionally hiding it. Only you can tell us if you are ignorant in this, or dishonest.

    What you are ignoring is “fal-salihatu qanitatun hafizatun lil-ghaib bi ma hafiza Allahu”

    First, the word ‘qanitat’ (masc. qanitin) is used throughout the Qur’an to refer to those who are devoutly obedient to God. So, the righteous women (al-salihat) are devoutly obedient to God do what God says in the next part of the phrase hafizatun lil-ghaib bi ma hafiza Allah, or, “guarding in privacy what God would have them guard.”

    You may recall that God stresses in other verses that what believers guard:

    23:5 Those who guard their sexual organs, (wal-ladhinahum lifurujihim hafizun)
    23:6 except from their spouses or those who are rightfully theirs.

    When we read 4:34 in light of these and similar verses, the meaning that becomes clear. This in turn clarifies the what the rest of the verse is talking about. It is advising husbands how to respond when they are afraid that their wives are being sexually unfaithful when they are absent.

    So, when did Muhammad fear that Khadija was being sexually unfaithful? You claimed she should be punished according to 4:34. The burden of proving that she violated it is on you.

    As for the Hadith you cite, you need to remember that any Hadith that is not in keeping with the Quran is invalid, no matter where you find it. Mernissi has clearly demonstrated that popular allegedly sound Hadith are not sound at all, according to the accepted principles of Hadith criticism. Have you submitted each of the Hadith you cite to the detailed analysis that Mernissi has used in the Veil and the Male Elite? If not, why not?

    Again, you are ignoring, either through ignorance or dishonesty, that which challenges your faith.

  5. draymusa says:

    I can’t find any principle in the whole of the al Quran which isn’t already existing in our world

    Of course not, as the Quran says:

    Quran 41:43 Nothing is said to you except was has already been said to the messengers before you: that your Lord possess forgiveness and severe punishment

  6. Fawzia says:

    Hi Muhammad Khafi,

    You certainly like to blow a smokescreen to obfuscate your deceptions and/or lies don’t you? Please try to be suscinct, and to the point in future, unless you are afraid that it will make your purpose here too obvious.

    Aha! Lost your temporary Muslim politeness have you? 😉

    Don’t worry, it happens, it happened in the Quran as well. The earlier verses try to be nice to unbelievers, only calling them the “worst of creatures” & threatening them with Hellfire, however, later the Quran loses this patience too! Then it tell Muslims to fight everyone! 😉

    I don’t think you’re particularly “succint” & ” to the point” either. And what do you suppose is my dangerous purpose in being here, that I should try to hide it? 😉

    Do you suppose I am some ex Muslim terrorist or something, planning to physically harm Muslims? Nope, I am simply an ex Muslim & I do dislike Islam, expressing that is not a crime(at least in my country, ie where I live now it isn’t), & I have no reason to be un obvious about it.

    If a woman is not pregnant when witnessing the agreement, who is to say that she will not be at some time later, possibly when being asked to bear witness?

    Neither of which retard her capacity of bearing witness, as one of my links clearly showed.

    Re here:

    http://guanabee.com/2009/02/baby-brain-myth

    Professor Christensen’s study tested the same 2,500 women before, during and after their pregnancies and found that they performed the same throughout on memory and logic tests, and did just as well as the never-pregnant control group.

    See? These women performed just as well-before, during & after their pregnancies on memory & logic tests!

    Some keywords for you;

    They performed equally well

    a) during pregnancy

    b) on memory tests.

    Prof Christensen is a woman as well! Perhaps she was pregnant when she was taking these memory tests & so she was stupid & couldn’t check results, eh Muhammad Khafi? 😉

    She probably needed another woman as her aide memoire when she was testing these 2500 pregnant women, probably! 😉

    We are not discussing a womans mental capabilities, we are discussing MEMORY, The article clearly states that memory was increased in pregnant rats and mice but said :

    Ouch! Using capital letters to make your point, well exactly we were discusing memory.

    Perhaps in your anger, you didn’t read Prof. Christsensen’s article? It showed that she had made woman go through memory tests as well, she found no difference between their capacities & that of any non pregnant women, even during pregnancy.

    Here I repeat:

    tested the same 2,500 women before, during and after their pregnancies and found that they performed the same throughout on memory and logic tests, and did just as well as the never-pregnant control group.

    Again, notice, women’s abilities during pregnancy have been tested, & they’ve been seen as equally capable of memory tests as the never been pregnant group, even during pregnancy! 😉

    So memory’s been tested!

    No mention of increased memory for human mothers, the article also states something you choose to ignore or suppress:

    I chose neither to ignore or suppress, I realised that you had said that, I chose not to repeat it.

    The study I gave you,by Dr. Christsen, did test memory, & found no difference!

    It was clearly stated, & I quoted it for you too!

    So, since you accused me of ignoring & suppressing, may I ask you, did you choose to ignore or suppress that info as well? 😉

    So we have one study mentioning that there’s difference in memory, another saying that there’s no difference!

    Obviously, neither of these studies have attained the status of Newton’s Theory of Gravity, so one is as trustworthy as another!

    Read the article again, it is about oestrogen deprived women, included in that group are of course those who have had their ovaries removed or those who are being treated for uterine tumours, but for the vast majority of women this condition is brought about by menopause. or will you now try and suggest that there were no menopausal women at the time of The Prophet?

    Thank you Fawzia, another good reason for two female witnesses!

    Not at all, even men had shorter life expectancies, men die more than women in all stages of life too, even adding maternal mortality, men in less advanced times often lived even less, due to war, hard work in fields, trade etc! In USA in 1900, men’s life expectany was two years less than women, a smaller gap than now, but still less.

    So both genders would be prone to early mortalities!

    Thank you for your second article Fawzia, did you bother to read it, part of it says:

    I did, did you bother to read it as well, part of it says things you dislike too, like the Quran, did you choose to relativise it away or shut your eyes to it?

    tested the same 2,500 women before, during and after their pregnancies and found that they performed the same throughout on memory and logic tests, and did just as well as the never-pregnant control group.

    In the 2500 she tested, she found no different results! Even on memory tests, & during pregnancy!

    draymusa thought that you were either ignorant or dishonest, I would add deceitful!

    Neither, it isn’t my fault that Helen Christensen’s testing of 2500 women showed no difference in their memory tests during pregnancy, & you chose to overlook that! 😉

    Perhaps, as I suggested, Helen was pregnant eh, while conducting her tests on these thousands of women? 😉

    Maybe she should have called you & another woman to re check the memory tests of those thousands, as her brains weren’t functioning properly on such a potentially Quranically important test? 🙂

  7. Fawzia says:

    And another study, showing how men are one & a half times more likely to lose memory in old age, compared to women!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3340033/Men-face-memory-loss-earlier-than-women.html

    Scientists found that they are at least one and a half times more likely to have problems with memory and thinking skills when they reach 70 and beyond.
    Men do not, on average, live as long as women and the new work shows that this is reflected in their mental decline too, which too happens earlier.

    When it comes to remembering things, men are more likely than women to become dotty and forgetful in old age, according to a study presented to the American Academy of Neurology, Chicago.

    “This is one of the first studies to determine the prevalence of mild cognitive impairment among men and women who have been randomly selected from a community to participate in the study,” says Dr Rosebud Roberts, of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

    For the study, 2,050 people living in Olmsted County, Minnesota, who were between the ages of 70 and 89 were interviewed, examined, and given cognitive tests in four areas.

    The first was memory, then executive function, which assesses judgment and problem-solving skills. They were also tested the understanding of language and verbal information, and ability to understand and interpret visual information.
    Overall, 15 per cent of the group had mild cognitive impairment.
    The study found that men were 1.67 times more likely to have such impairment, problems with memory and retention…

    There men also suffer andropause, equivalent to menopause, in old age are likely to be more than one & a half times more forgetful, & in Helen Christensen’s study, the 2500 women performed equally well when pregnant! 🙂

  8. Fawzia says:

    @Muhammad Khafi,

    Read the article again, it is about oestrogen deprived women, included in that group are of course those who have had their ovaries removed or those who are being treated for uterine tumours, but for the vast majority of women this condition is brought about by menopause. or will you now try and suggest that there were no menopausal women at the time of The Prophet?

    Sure, there were menopausal women & andropausal men! 🙂

    Memory loss was reported in 36% of the patients who felt that they had experienced andropause.
    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14153066

  9. Cukurungan says:

    Aha! Lost your temporary Muslim politeness have you?
    Don’t worry, it happens, it happened in the Quran as well. The earlier verses try to be nice to unbelievers, only calling them the “worst of creatures” & threatening them with Hellfire, however, later the Quran loses this patience too! Then it tell Muslims to fight everyone!

    Not quite so, because we Muslim consider Quran as a complete tool box, if there is a nail we will take the hammer to hit it, if there is sheep, we will take can to milk it, if there is a goat we will take knife to slaughter it. It is up to your self what you want to present your self toward us… he hehehe… do not worry …I am fully guarantee that we will take exactly the right tool to deal with you.

    I have to admit that you are the best representative of the faith freedom so far who joined in these forums, because previously most of your kind was ended their career miserably.
    However, I still seen hole on your posting because your posting only able to provoke hatred the non-Muslim toward the Muslim but you do not give the way out or list to do for the Islam hater how they should deal with Muslim and more over you do not give the Islam hater resources or help how to deal with Muslim.
    Please complete your work ASAP because all the Islam hater are now waiting your recommendation and contribution while our self just preparing what the correct toll to be taken from our tool box.

  10. Fawzia says:

    Hi Cuk,

    Not quite so, because we Muslim consider Quran as a complete tool box, if there is a nail we will take the hammer to hit it, if there is sheep, we will take can to milk it, if there is a goat we will take knife to slaughter it. It is up to your self what you want to present your self toward us… he hehehe… do not worry …I am fully guarantee that we will take exactly the right tool to deal with you.

    You can “deal” with me in any manner you like from the Quranic tool box, that doesn’t in the least bother me-unless, it is the recommendation to physically fight, forcibly, convert, charge jizya & keep in me subdued or continue fighting until all have to surrender to Allah.

    You & your ilk do have full freedom in much of the world to give dawah, ridicule other faiths & atheism, praise Islam to the skies etc-you aren’t stopped. Problem starts when Muslims try to bar others from expressimg their freedom of speech & expression by death threats & sometimes physical killings, or when you fight & kill groups of unbelievers.

    Apostates like myself won’t stand for that! Although Iran is officially 98% Muslim as apostasy is punishable by death, more than half of Iranian Americans have stopped identifyingthemselves as Muslim! I see plenty of non believers, & many converts to our ancient Zoroastrian faith,the Bahai faith & Christianity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_American

    As soon as this theocracy ends, I can see millions of Iranians apostatizing, most of my school friends were tired of Islam.

    I have to admit that you are the best representative of the faith freedom so far who joined in these forums, because previously most of your kind was ended their career miserably.

    Faith Freedom isn’t the only anti Islam site on the internet, there are plenty of others. There’s Islam watch
    http://www.islam-watch.com/

    Prophet of Doom
    http://prophetofdoom.net/

    And as a nonbeliever in all religions, I tremendously enjoy Skeptics Annotated Quran(& the criticisms of the Bible as well!)
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/index.htm

    I have checked out all sorts of Muslim sites, Quran only sites on my road to apostasy too, I found dumping Islam seemed the most rational answer for me.

    Ali Sina isn’t really my favorite apostate, imo he’s unneccessarily harsh sometimes, but I respect him as a fellow Iranian apostate who too is keen to show Islam’s dark side to others. I think everyone ought to have their freedom of speech, as long as they don’t physically harm others.

    However, I still seen hole on your posting because your posting only able to provoke hatred the non-Muslim toward the Muslim but you do not give the way out or list to do for the Islam hater how they should deal with Muslim and more over you do not give the Islam hater resources or help how to deal with Muslim.
    Please complete your work ASAP because all the Islam hater are now waiting your recommendation and contribution while our self just preparing what the correct toll to be taken from our tool box.

    There are plenty of resources on how to deal with Muslims online, besides the Islam hater doesn’t really need to do much beyond quoting bits of the Quran & hadiths, they are sufficient to show how bad Islam is!Simply re quoting from their holy books & showing their daily actions is enough. 😉

    while our self just preparing what the correct toll to be taken from our tool box

    This last sentence is worrying, you know! Are you preparing to kill me for the crime of spreading “mischief” ” in the land, as I am anti Islam & have the impudence to voice my opinions as well? 😉

    Incidentally, you wrote

    correct toll

    Perhaps it was a typo, we all make spelling mistakes when we type fast, toll btw also means a tax or fee-are you guys planning to make us jizya tax paying, subdued dhimmis once more(Quran 9:29), in an attempt to silence us? 😉

  11. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    You said:

    Aha! Lost your temporary Muslim politeness have you?

    How could you read my statement as impolite?

    I said “You certainly like to blow a smokescreen to obfuscate your deceptions and/or lies don’t you? Please try to be suscinct, and to the point in future, unless you are afraid that it will make your purpose here too obvious.”

    I don’t think there is anything impolite in that statement. I have been know to lose my politeness on occasion and you could no doubt find examples on these pages, but nobody is perfect of course, are they?

    Your two refered articles whilst saying that there are improvements in mental capabilities, clearly are contradictory within themselves as I pointed out. If you conduct a little more research you will find many more articles and research projects which confirm memory loss and or impairment in pregnant women than those that show an imrovement in mental abilities.

    As there does appear to be some contradictory research results the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Neuropsychology carried out an analysis of 14 studies carried out over a 17 years period up to 2007.

    They found that:

    The results indicate that pregnant women are significantly impaired on some, but not all, measures of memory, and, specifically, memory measures that place relatively high demands on executive cognitive control may be selectively disrupted. The same specific deficits associated with pregnancy are also observed postpartum. These findings highlight the need for exploration of the etiologies and functional consequences of pregnancy-related memory difficulties and may help to guide the interpretation of neuropsychological data for the purpose of determining cognitive status in individuals who are pregnant or postpartum.

  12. Fawzia says:

    Hi Muhammad Khafi,

    Your two refered articles whilst saying that there are improvements in mental capabilities, clearly are contradictory within themselves as I pointed out. If you conduct a little more research you will find many more articles and research projects which confirm memory loss and or impairment in pregnant women than those that show an imrovement in mental abilities.

    Well, this isn’t the only point you made & the only research you displayed either. One was about pregnancy, the other about menopause. Lets’ first deal with menopause as that is already clear.

    Here’s what you said:

    Read the article again, it is about oestrogen deprived women, included in that group are of course those who have had their ovaries removed or those who are being treated for uterine tumours, but for the vast majority of women this condition is brought about by menopause. or will you now try and suggest that there were no menopausal women at the time of The Prophet?

    There’s an easy answer to this one, namely that men also have an equivalent to menopause, caused also be hormones like menopausal changes, the male equivalent is called andropause, it effects millions of men, around the same ages menopause affects women & it has many of the same symptoms, memory loss.

    Here’s another article on andropause:

    http://www.naturalhealthweb.com/articles/Weinberger1.html

    In the United States 35 million to 40 million men between the ages of 40 years old to 70 years old have some symptoms of male menopause. With the aging “baby- boomer” generation this number is expected to grow to 70 million U.S males by the year 2010.

    The symptoms of male menopause include lack of energy, weight gain, an increase in body fat, loss of muscle mass, decline in the size and consistency of the testes, loss of libido, increasing erectile dysfunction (ED), loss of the ability to control anxiety, depression and difficulty with concentration and memory loss. Dr. Weinberger states that beginning in the third decade of life, male testosterone levels begin to decrease at a rate of one percent per year.

    Thus, at least regarding women & menopause, its clear that men also have an equivalent syndrome, namely andropause, many of the symptoms are similar & most important-memory loss does indeed occur! 😉

    You say:

    but for the vast majority of women this condition is brought about by menopause. or will you now try and suggest that there were no menopausal women at the time of The Prophet

    Yes there were, but as the same symptoms would be experienced by andropausal men, both men & women should’ve been barred from giving evidence on the basis of their meno & andro pauses respectively! 🙂

    Of course, ancient people would be less likely to be familiar with andropause as unlike menopause its symptoms aren’t visible with a stopping of menstruation equivalent so I can expect ancient books not to bar men on the basis of andropause! 😉

    So on this one hormonal change at least, men too should’ve been included if they were the Creator’s words(who’d know about andropause as well)!

    Next, pregnant women:

    They found that:

    As you accused me of ignoring or deliberately suppressing information, I don’t think its unfair if I acuse you now of doing the same, right?

    Particularly as the link you gave only contains few sentences, & you haven’t posted the first two sentences. 😉

    Never mind, I will post them.

    Here they are:

    Although until recently much of the evidence for pregnancy-related deficits in memory was anecdotal or based on self-report, a number of studies have now been conducted that have tested whether these subjective appraisals of memory difficulties reflect objective impairment. However, these studies have failed to yield consistent results.

    So what even the Journal is saying is that-till recently there was little studies done on the issue, now more studies have been done, but even they have failed to yield consistent results! 😉

    Even the bit you chose to quote, uses this word:

    results indicate

    So its results “indicate” & not “prove”. Also, the statement that there haven’t been consistent results show that the jury is yet to be out on this one! 😉

    It hasn’t yet been proved like gravity, & even in the short duration that there have been studies, there haven’t been consistent results! 🙂

    So in the case of pregnancy, we’re left without any one consistent finding, in case of your second statement of hormonal changes, namely menopause, we also have andropause which too causes hormonal changes & memory loss, & in another study I cited:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3340033/Men-face-memory-loss-earlier-than-women.html

    Men are more than one & a half times as likely to lose memory in old ages compared to women! 😉

    So verdict is still to be out on pregnancy, andro & meno pauses hormonal changes affect both genders & memory losses in old age seems to affect men 1.67 times more than women. 🙂

  13. shuhei says:

    Fawzia,

    I am wondering if you have nothing better to do, as you have dedicated so much of your time and energy writing post after post after post, and long ones for that matter, on this site, trying to convince people of other faith than yours? Don’t you have any job or any other responsibility, or is this your responsibility, carrying some sort of mission to convert us all Muslims?

    But, convert us to what? You are just showing how bad and evil Islam is, something that many other people have tried to do for a long time already. But something that we Muslims have always kept rejecting. Nothing new.

    What is it that you are trying to promote here? Show us how it can be a better alternative from Islam if you can.

    If you want us to dump Islam like yourself, then replace it with what?

    Even if you think the world might be a better place without Islam, how do you know that that’s true, because it’s not going to happen? First, many many Muslims are never ever going to leave their religion no matter what. Second, there’s no guarantee that any other belief system whatsoever can be a perfect answer for everything.

    If you just hate and are sick of Islam, we have given you an easy way out. Believe whatever you want to believe, and let us believe whatever we want to believe. Stop harassing people who happen to have different opinions from you.

    Tell you what, I tell this to everybody, including my Muslims friend whenever they start to try to force their belief on others. “Leave people alone.”

    We, according to what I believe, which you may also be able to find flaws with, are all responsible and will be held accountable for our own deeds, thoughts and actions. On the day of judgement, we have to stand alone and answer about whatever we do while living on earth straight to (our) God alone.

    M.Khafi once said in one of his previous posts that as long as you believe in God, believe in the hereafter and do good deeds in your life, you have nothing to worry about from God. And if you want to come back to your Zoroastrian original belief, I understand that it believes in one God, believes in doing only good deeds, and believes in the afterlife. So, no problems right? You just call your God with a different name, but God all the same.

    Or if you want to look at it in a different way, you or other non believers certainly don’t have anything to worry about from our (Muslim) God, as you don’t believe in Him, right. You don’t believe Him, so He doesn’t exist for you, right, so you don’t have anything to worry about. Nobody is going to burn you in hellfire, as the God that will do that doesn’t exist according to you, right?

    You are waging a pointless campaign here, as you don’t have any purpose other than showing your hatred toward something to other people. Unless, this is the best thing that you can do with your life. Maybe you find entertainment and amusement from the whole thing, as I can see that you are using a lot of smileys throughout all your posts? Unless, this is what you consider a good deed? But I am sure, you are only wasting you energy. Still, if that’s what you want to do, go ahead.

  14. Cukurungan says:

    This last sentence is worrying, you know! Are you preparing to kill me for the crime of spreading “mischief” ” in the land, as I am anti Islam & have the impudence to voice my opinions as well?

    Do not worry I will not kill someone who help my job much easier because by linking the posting from the people of your kind, I do not need to say anything to our fellow brothers because they can see by themself that there are some people who ready to destroy the Islam so they will prepare themself to take the correct tool from their tool box…..so my job accomplished without need my big effort…thank you friend.

  15. Fawzia says:

    @shuhei,

    I am wondering if you have nothing better to do, as you have dedicated so much of your time and energy writing post after post after post, and long ones for that matter, on this site, trying to convince people of other faith than yours? Don’t you have any job or any other responsibility, or is this your responsibility, carrying some sort of mission to convert us all Muslims?

    I can ask the same of Muslims like Muhammad Khafi & others, why do they spend so much time preaching Islam, or is it allright ifthey preach but a crime if I preach against Islam? 😉

    Surely, their rights to preach Islam is=my right to preach against it.

    But, convert us to what? You are just showing how bad and evil Islam is, something that many other people have tried to do for a long time already. But something that we Muslims have always kept rejecting. Nothing new.

    Again I repeat, do only Muslims have the right to preach their faith, others don’t have any right to preach against it?

    What is it that you are trying to promote here? Show us how it can be a better alternative from Islam if you can.

    If you want us to dump Islam like yourself, then replace it with what?

    I have already given you the link to the Religion of Peace site, such a long list of killings & attacks daily are happening explicitly in the name of Islam-no other faith.

    These attacks aren’t done due to communism, Catholicism, Judaism etc-the killers are motivated by Islam, they clearly state their religious agendas, they continue their movements on the basis of Islamic teachings in the Quran & hadiths.

    Also, look at all the laws forcing women to cover up or be arrested in Iran, Saudi, even Aceh, laws restricting rights of non Muslims in so many lands-no faith has such a long list of daily killings done in its name, so many laws restricting rights of non Muslim minorities & women as Islam does.

    A choice of most other religions would be better. At least in case of my fellow Iranians, life would be infinitely better once we managed to dump Islam-I can see this amongst the Iranian Americans, majority of whom have quit Islam-the women dress & do as they like, they get the same legal rights.

    Even if you think the world might be a better place without Islam, how do you know that that’s true, because it’s not going to happen? First, many many Muslims are never ever going to leave their religion no matter what. Second, there’s no guarantee that any other belief system whatsoever can be a perfect answer for everything.

    No religion or political system can ever be a perfect answer, but there are better & worse answers. That the Nazis were bad doesn’t mean that the Allied forces nations like USA or Britain were perfect, but they were infinitely better. Surely it was sensible to support USA, Britain etc during World War 2 than support the Nazis, coz even though they weren’t perfect, they were far better.

    Ditto with so many Muslim & non Muslim nations.

    If you just hate and are sick of Islam, we have given you an easy way out. Believe whatever you want to believe, and let us believe whatever we want to believe.

    Are you being ignorant or deliberately lying here? In many Muslim nations, apostasy is punishable by death. Even others, less fudamentalist ones like Malaysia make arrest apostates & try to “reform” them into accepting Islam.

    The Quran(9:29) says that all others like me have to pay the jizya & feel subdued, but why should I agree to being taxed differently-why shouldn’t I deserve equal human rights & the same tax?

    If I am an idolator-like Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, the Quran(9:5) says that I have to be fought till I accept Islam-why should I have to accept Islam?

    Stop harassing people who happen to have different opinions from you.

    Oh please! Do you know the meaning of “harassment”? Posting opinions on the net isn’t harassment at all! I cvould well tell the Islamic apologists like Khafi to stop harassing me too, but I won’t, coz I happen to know that disagreeing on the internet & holding different views isn’ t harassment.

    Tell you what, I tell this to everybody, including my Muslims friend whenever they start to try to force their belief on others. “Leave people alone.”

    Then tell so to Muhammad Khafi & draymusa as well! I don’t know about what your Muslim friends do, but disagreeing on the internet certainly isn’t “forcing opinions” on other people! I certainly haven’t held a gun to anyone’s head, no, not even charged jizya! 😉

    We, according to what I believe, which you may also be able to find flaws with, are all responsible and will be held accountable for our own deeds, thoughts and actions. On the day of judgement, we have to stand alone and answer about whatever we do while living on earth straight to (our) God alone.

    Well, then the poor Catholics, Hindus,Chinese folk religionists, who’re idolators have a terrible punishment in store for them, not for any evil act, but for adding partners to God!

    God as in Allah says that He might choose to forgive anything, but not forgive adding partners to Him! 😉

    Here:

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!
    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    So on the Day of Judgment, we know what Allah is preoccupied with, in His eyes, thinking that there’re more than a Single God as Hindus\Shintos etc do, or thinking Jesus is God will suffer terribly in Allah’s fire! 🙂

    However, He says that He’ll forgive anything else(re…but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed), which means that forgiving the Bali bombers is more possible for Allah, than the poor Balinese Hindu victims!

    It doesn’t matter to Allah how good & sinless a life the Balinese Hindus might have led, they’re “heinous sinners” all the same! Ditto for these beheaded Catholic schoolgirls! :-)http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm

    M.Khafi once said in one of his previous posts that as long as you believe in God, believe in the hereafter and do good deeds in your life, you have nothing to worry about from God. And if you want to come back to your Zoroastrian original belief, I understand that it believes in one God, believes in doing only good deeds, and believes in the afterlife. So, no problems right? You just call your God with a different name, but God all the same.

    What if I chose to be a Wiccan, a Christian or a Neopagan polytheist?

    Remember how much Allah hates shirk?

    M. Khafi forgot to mention how evil Allah in the Quran thinks Hindus & Christians are, how calling God Jesus is a ticket to Hellfire, & how Allah will forgive all sins compared to believing that there’re more than One God!

    He didn’t quote that bit of the Quran!

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    So it isn’t as simple as only believing in God, my girl!

    Or if you want to look at it in a different way, you or other non believers certainly don’t have anything to worry about from our (Muslim) God, as you don’t believe in Him, right. You don’t believe Him, so He doesn’t exist for you, right, so you don’t have anything to worry about. Nobody is going to burn you in hellfire, as the God that will do that doesn’t exist according to you, right?

    Nope they aren’t, but they might just kill me in this life! I do care if this life of mine is cut short-Muslims are daily killing innocent people from Southern Thailand & Southern Philippines, to Kashmir, to the mid East to many other locations, I care if I have to dress up with a hijab or face arrest, like in Iran. I would love to visit Bali & Egypt, & I care if someone plants bombs there! I care if I am stoned in Iran, if any homosexual relatives of mine are obliged to change their sex or be hanged in Iran, I care if I am lashed for having a boyfriend…the list is endless.

    I don’t care about Islamic afterlife, but I care how it messes up this earthly life! 🙂

    You are waging a pointless campaign here, as you don’t have any purpose other than showing your hatred toward something to other people. Unless, this is the best thing that you can do with your life. Maybe you find entertainment and amusement from the whole thing, as I can see that you are using a lot of smileys throughout all your posts? Unless, this is what you consider a good deed? But I am sure, you are only wasting you energy. Still, if that’s what you want to do, go ahead.

    Other people will arrest or kill me if I leave Islam in many places, if I don’t cover my head & yet I have to remain silent about it?

    I repeat, criticizing a faith, or for that matter propagating a faith is certainly no harassment…its called right to free speech, heard of that?

  16. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    You said:

    I can ask the same of Muslims like Muhammad Khafi & others, why do they spend so much time preaching Islam, or is it allright ifthey preach but a crime if I preach against Islam?

    I do not preach Islam, I only post when people like yourself try and paint Islam in an ugly light, by spreading out of context quotes and disinformation. I doubt if you even read through this thread before posting your malicious hate filled rhetoric in the first place. I would question why you come to a thread which is clearly aimed at trying to modernise Islam get rid of the corruption which it is clearly tainted with. If you want to hate Islam there are discussion threads and sites which are not trying to promote modernity and free thinking as is happening in this thread.

    You said:

    No religion or political system can ever be a perfect answer, but there are better & worse answers. That the Nazis were bad doesn’t mean that the Allied forces nations like USA or Britain were perfect, but they were infinitely better. Surely it was sensible to support USA, Britain etc during World War 2 than support the Nazis, coz even though they weren’t perfect, they were far better.

    Ditto with so many Muslim & non Muslim nations.

    You are proving this to be very true with your Atheist hate filled intolerance of Islam, what this thread was about is the rejection of Hadith and Sunnah as sources of Law in Islam, it is promoting the good values, which true beleivers can and do find in Al Quran, although they seem to escape you! Quranic Islam may not be perfect but it is certainly preferable to the corruption which has taken place over the years, by the use of Sunnah and Hadith.

    You post the above as an example of choosing better options, but your philosophy doesn’t leave any option for Muslims, and as such is doomed to failure, and instead of improving matters will only make things worse.

    Shuhei said:

    Tell you what, I tell this to everybody, including my Muslims friend whenever they start to try to force their belief on others. “Leave people alone.”

    Fawzia replied:

    Then tell so to Muhammad Khafi & draymusa as well! I don’t know about what your Muslim friends do, but disagreeing on the internet certainly isn’t “forcing opinions” on other people! I certainly haven’t held a gun to anyone’s head, no, not even charged jizya!

    I have never ever tried to force my belief on you, I stated very clearly from the beginning, you have your way and I have mine. Allah teaches us that there is no compulsion in religion, or have you forgotten that from your days as a Muslim?

    Let’s not forget, that you came to this forum and this thread, we did not try and gatecrash your party! All that you have managed to do is divert attention away from a discussion trying to inform Muslims, and encourage them to think rationally and carefully about their practices.

    Just because your character prevents you from seeing the goodness in Al Quran, doesn’t mean that others cannot do it.

    I guess I would be angry like you if I had given up my belief in God, based on my misunderstanding or incomprehension, but luckily I have persevered and still have my faith.

    Islam as I, and many many others practice it, is peacefull, tolerant, repecting of all humans rights, repecting of others religious beliefs and practices. It is not the hatefull dogma filled religion which you see.

  17. draymusa says:

    So it isn’t as simple as only believing in God

    It is exactly that simple. God not forgiving partners being associated with It is just a law of nature. It’s the way it is. You will also find that the earth will not forgive jumping out a window from 20 stories up, or lighting a fire in the middle of your living room without a fireplace, or jumping from a boat into the ocean. Your body will not forgive ingesting poison, or shooting yourself in the head. We will always suffer the consequenses or enjoy the rewards of how we live. You may not like it, but that is how it is.

  18. Fawzia says:

    Hi draymusa,

    It is exactly that simple. God not forgiving partners being associated with It is just a law of nature. It’s the way it is

    Hahaha! Spoken like a true brainwashed Muslimah! 🙂

    You will also find that the earth will not forgive jumping out a window from 20 stories up, or lighting a fire in the middle of your living room without a fireplace, or jumping from a boat into the ocean. Your body will not forgive ingesting poison, or shooting yourself in the head.

    Empty foolish quotes! Please prove your statements, without reference to the Quran.

    There are followers of many other religions doing other things for millennia without coming to any harm!

    We will always suffer the consequenses or enjoy the rewards of how we live. You may not like it, but that is how it is.

    That isn’t how it is at all, none of us know what God will & won’t forgive,no one has checked out what happens after death & returned to tell the tale!

    And living people have multiple different tales to tell!

    For example, there are many people revealing their past life histories to psychiatrists, no Last Judgment is revealed by them!

    All the ancient civilizations-from Mesopotemia to Egypt to the British Celts to the Greeks to Romans have associated partners with God.

    The Trinitarian Christians, Hindus,Chinese folk religionists, Japanese Shintos are all associating partners glibly, without coming to any harm in this life, indeed many of these groups are far more educated, successful etc than Muslims.

    To think that all these people are doing the equivalent harm of consuming poison simply coz the backward & violent Muslims claim so!

    In any case, there is simply no provable evidence that these folks will land up in Hellfire for no crime, & I prefer not to trust any Quran’s claims-if Muslims & the Quran can’t get things right in this life, I see no reason to give them the benefit of doubt regarding the Afterlife either! 😉

    Thanks for the laugh again! 🙂

  19. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    Once again you are being very misleading comparing menopause and andropause in the way you have.

    Andropause is not even generally accepted by the majority of medical practitioners as a medical condition! Andropause is a long slow process starting as early as the mid thirties and can last into the eighties. Importantly this condition is not universal in men!

    Since the shift in hormones occurs so differently in men, the accompanying symptoms are also more gradual.

    Amongst the many possible symptoms, memory loss is included but the following is quoted from one article: Often the memory loss is so minor it does not affect everyday functioning. This memory loss has sometimes been referred to as “age related memory loss”

    Menopause, however is a fact of life for all women with a sharp rapid onset with the decline of oestrogen.

    From Wiki:
    Unlike “menopause”, the word “andropause” is not currently recognized by the World Health Organization and its ICD-10 medical classification. This is likely due to the fact that “Andropause” is term of convenience describing the stage of life when symptoms in aging appear in men.

  20. Fawzia says:

    The only difference between menopause & andropause is that the former is universal, the latter less so.

    However, there is no conclusive evidence that simply because menopause is experienced by all women, memory loss too is experienced!

    Indeed, one study shows that far from memory loss, women performed better at memory tests after menopause!

    Here’s the study:

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Does+menopause+cause+memory+loss%3F-a0119853745

    Does menopause cause memory loss? Not according to researchers at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke’s Medical Center. In the first longitudinal study, of cognition during menopause, memory tests were performed on a group of 868 midlife mid life women (African-American and white) from the Chicago area. Findings revealed that menopause does not trigger a loss in memory or cognitive speed, but actually produces a slight but significant increase in cognition. Participants’ family income, education, ethnicity and health describe many national differences in the way that ethnic groups are described, and there is near-universal agreement that ‘ethnicity’ is a status spanned a wide range and bore no effect on findings.

    Repeat from the study:

    Findings revealed that menopause does not trigger a loss in memory or cognitive speed, but actually produces a slight but significant increase in cognition

  21. Fawzia says:

    Hi Muhammad Khafi,

    I do not preach Islam, I only post when people like yourself try and paint Islam in an ugly light, by spreading out of context quotes and disinformation. I doubt if you even read through this thread before posting your malicious hate filled rhetoric in the first place. I would question why you come to a thread which is clearly aimed at trying to modernise Islam get rid of the corruption which it is clearly tainted with. If you want to hate Islam there are discussion threads and sites which are not trying to promote modernity and free thinking as is happening in this thread.

    Thread clearly aimed means what exactly? Has Indonesia Matters made us agree to accept terms & conditions which says that anyone who posts on this thread will have to either pen Hossanas on Islam, defend it from any attacks or at least express hopes for its reformation?

    No sir, this is absolutely a forum for free speech, I have as much right to be here & express my views as you do. Anyone has a right to express whatever their views are about Islam. No “free thinking” can be promoted about Islam or any other issue, if all views aren’t allowed to be heard everywhere.

    As for corruption, if you mean getting rid of hadiths will miraculously end all corruption, then there is plenty of ugly verses in the Quran.

    Indeed, in my country, much of Islam’s intolerance & sexism is encouraged using not any hadiths, but the Quran itself.

    Its Allah in the Quran who gives daughters half of son’s inheritance, widows half of widower’s inheritance, gives Muslim men permission to marry Jewish & Christian women but forgets to mention whether or not Muslim women have the same right, says that associating partners with God-like Christians & Hindus do is the worst, unforgivable sin, but Allah might forgive other sins etc!

    I only post when people like yourself try and paint Islam in an ugly light, by spreading out of context quotes and disinformation.

    Exactly, the same accusation can be made against you, that you cherry pick benign sounding verses out of all context, forgetting to mention the violent & intolerant verses along with them, in order to pull the woll over everyone’s eyes & show Islam in a falsely positive light.

    The context of much of the Quran is war, war & more urgint to war.

    Even when no war is going on, the Quran enjoys doling out hate speech.

    “Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book (Christians & Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein for ever. They are the worst of creatures.” (98.6)

    For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him. (8.55)

    O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. 009.028

    It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire. 009.113

    Calling people worst of creatures, worst beasts, unclean, barring even Muslims to pray for their relatives aren’t exactly any very benign verse.

    There are loads of such intolerant, sexist verses about members of all religions & no religion, but when you cherry pick the sweet sounding verses, you don’t mention these either! 😉

    You are proving this to be very true with your Atheist hate filled intolerance of Islam, what this thread was about is the rejection of Hadith and Sunnah as sources of Law in Islam, it is promoting the good values, which true beleivers can and do find in Al Quran, although they seem to escape you! Quranic Islam may not be perfect but it is certainly preferable to the corruption which has taken place over the years, by the use of Sunnah and Hadith.

    This thread was about anyone & everyone who has a computer & internet to post their views on the Quran & hadiths. It isn’t a permission by the site owners to promote any single agenda & ban others from posting. If good believers do find some good values in Islam, they simply cherry pick verses which sound less violent & sexist, ignoring other verses which aren’t so nice. Ditto for hadith & Sunnah followers, they cherry pick bits which they like.

    The problem with Quranist cherry pickers is that, others too will read the Quran, come across the violent & sexist verses & apply those to their lives!

    I have seen this & heard of this everywhere. Thus even Javanese & Minangkabaus often give their daughters half the inheritance of sons, widows get half what widowers get amongst many Iranian families I know, idolators like Christians, Buddhists & Hindus are held in utter contempt by many Muslims according to the Quran’s verses etc.Muslims also consider themselves truly superior to other faiths members, using only the Quran. I have met Muslims telling me that Allah says they’re the “best of peoples!”(Quran 3:110) Not to mention all the verses which encourages Muslims to fight everyone whatever the slightest “persecution” real or imagined “until faith in Allah prevails” & all the verses glorifying war & violence are very much used by Muslims to wage perpetual war.

    It is no solution, because peaceful Muslims might cherry pick benign verses, others will not fail to notice the violent ones! Muslim men wanting & supporting equality will ignore verses like 4:34, others will use that as a divine sanction saying that Allah has made them excel women so they’re natural maintainers & protectors. Other such misogynistic verses too will encourage perpetual misogyny.

    I know a very pathetic case of a Yemeni widow, my mom’s relative, who was dating an Italian Catholic, that man too had come to visit her, she was married by her already married brother in law ie “inherited” by him as he considered her “flagrantly lewd”-he also took away the share of her property given by her husband.

    I have never ever tried to force my belief on you, I stated very clearly from the beginning, you have your way and I have mine. Allah teaches us that there is no compulsion in religion, or have you forgotten that from your days as a Muslim?

    Let’s not forget, that you came to this forum and this thread, we did not try and gatecrash your party! All that you have managed to do is divert attention away from a discussion trying to inform Muslims, and encourage them to think rationally and carefully about their practices.

    I have to laugh again! Did I ever say you “forced” your views? Shuhei accused me of forcing my views on others, I simply replied that its permissible to disagree on internet forums, that doesn’t mean anyone “forces” their views! As an example, I said that M. Khafi too disagrees with me, but I know that its not forcing his views! 😉

    So I never made any accusation about you forcing views, I was explaining to shuhei that disagreeing online isn’t frcing views.

    I too want Muslims to think rationally about their practices, but I don’t see how thats’ possible if one simply cherry picks some peaceful verses, as there’re verses on practically every page which teaches, if not actual war, believers to despise & loathe unbelievers & members of other faiths!

    Just because your character prevents you from seeing the goodness in Al Quran, doesn’t mean that others cannot do it.

    Yes, there’s some goodness, some peace, some equality, but a terrible amount of badness, violence, misogyny etc as well! If others could see so much goodness, Muslim ations would be in a very different state today! The Arabs, Iranians,Pakistanis, have spent years trying to ferret out any goodness & ignore the bad, yet many misogynistic & violent practices have been encouraged simply through the Quran. Ill treatment towards idolators, women’s subservience, ill attitudes to Jews, towards those who are irreligious, not to ention “holy war” are all encouraged through the Quran. There are ample verses condoning such behavior.

    I guess I would be angry like you if I had given up my belief in God, based on my misunderstanding or incomprehension, but luckily I have persevered and still have my faith.

    Or maybe you have stuck to Islam based on misunderstanding or incomprehension.Many people I know have lost their faith, based not on hadiths, but on Quran.Indeed, much of the Quran supports poor behavior. Who is to say that their understanding is lackng compared to yours?

    Islam as I, and many many others practice it, is peacefull, tolerant, repecting of all humans rights, repecting of others religious beliefs and practices. It is not the hatefull dogma filled religion which you see.

    Sure, but in nation after nation, & many immigrant communities, it creates an unnatural number of violent, intolerant, lack of human rights, intolerant of other religions population of Muslims. It indeed becomes a hteful dogma filled religion in nation after nation. Something goes wrong the moment Muslims understand & come closer to their Islam, which doesn’t ahppen with their ignorance. I see it in my Iran, compared to our neighbouring Azerbaijan, which has been largely purged of Islam under long decades of Communism, I can see it amongst Acehnese compared to Javanese, Rusian irreligious Tatars compared to religious Chechens etc!

    I see many Muslims encourage wife beating using the Quran, or at least making wives sleep apart on the floor as punishment, I haven’t come across a single ex Muslim who condones such behavior.

    He didn’t honor kill her according to misogynistic mid east practices, nor did any hadith enforced action, it was the Quran which gave him this right to “inherit” his sister in law.

  22. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    You said:

    Findings revealed that menopause does not trigger a loss in memory or cognitive speed, but actually produces a slight but significant increase in cognition

    Unfortunately the study you quoted was published back in September 2003, the latest study published in May of this year, featured here: ThainIndian

    Says something different:

    Women going through the menopause suffer from temporary loss of memory and learning ability, according to a new study.

    The largest study of its kind to date has been published in the May 26, 2009, print issue of Neurology, the medical journal of the American Academy of Neurology.

  23. draymusa says:

    All the ancient civilizations-from Mesopotemia to Egypt to the British Celts to the Greeks to Romans have associated partners with God.

    Yes, and that resulted in great harm.

    http://www.experiencefestival.com/norse_paganism_-_human_sacrifice#

    http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/sacrific.html#

    http://usminc.org/humansacrifice.html

    http://books.google.com/books?id=f52yGxXJy14C&dq=pagan+human+sacrifice&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=Dg3NSrPrC4ff8Qac57HPCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#v=onepage&q=pagan%20human%20sacrifice&f=false

    http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/spring99/parrilla/parr1.htm

    http://gallery.sjsu.edu/sacrifice/sumerians.html

    Associating partners with God always results in harm. You are a clear example. Look at the harm you suffer because you insist on taking the corrupt male elite of the Muslim world as partners with God: You are suffering terrible emotional and spiritual pain; it shows with every message you post. Imagine being free from that pain. It is possible. All you need to do is stop taking corrupt human beings as partners with God.

  24. Mir Ali says:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, ‘(There is) no ‘Adwa (no contagious disease is conveyed without Allah’s permission). nor is there any bad omen (from birds), nor is there any Hamah, nor is there any bad omen in the month of Safar, and one should run away from the leper as one runs away from a lion ” (Book #71, Hadith #608)

  25. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Mir Ali,

    Allah says:

    “In which hadith after this will they believe?” (al-A`araaf [7]:185).

    “These are God’s revelations we recite to you in truth. Then, in which hadith after God and His revelations will they believe?” (al-Jatheya [45]:6).

    “Shall I seek other than God as a source of law and judgment when He is the One who has sent down the Book to you in detail?” (al-An`am [6]:114).

    “What is wrong with you? How do you judge? Do you have another book which you study?” (al-Qalam [68]:35-36).

    If Allah wanted us to do all those things not mentioned in Al Quran, His complete, perfect, and fully detailed book, He would have told us in Al Quran. One of the verses says that: Your Lord does not run out of words, if all the oceans were ink he could have used then all, and the same again!

  26. Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu ‘Alaikum Brother Khafi

    Nothing can be a more appropriate description of how you quote al-A`araaf [7]:185, to use your phrase you recently used in one of your comments, “quoting out of context”.
    Apart from the question of “Historical dependability of Ahaadith” as Muhammad Asad, Austrian Jewish convert to Islam (formerly Leopold Weiss) puts it in the book Islam at the crossroads, your approach is tantamount to Ilhaad in the Aayaat of Allah if you conduct an honest introspection.

    You said:

    Allah says:

    “In which hadith after this will they believe?” (al-A`araaf [7]:185).

    Brother, honestly answer, what an ordinary Muslim or Muslimah who happens to read this would percieve
    1.most of whom don’t understand the language in which Al Qur’aan was bestowed from on high
    2.most of whom would not bother to read the full Aayah?

    He/she would wrongly percieve that ‘this’ here refers to Kitaab of Allah and the word ‘hadith’ you deliberately used in your translation and are conflating with what in the popular Muslim conception generally refers to the sayings of the Rasool of Allah .

    I would like here to show all the readers what Allah says in the full Aayah(I would urge the readers to try to learn the Arabic words used in the Aayah)

    Have they, then, never considered [God’s] mighty dominion over the heavens and the earth, and all the things that God has created, and [asked themselves] whether, perchance, the end of their own term might already have drawn nigh? In what other tiding, then, will they, after this, believe?
    Here, Allah urges humans to consider and contemplate over:
    1.The Dominion over the heavens and the earth
    2. His entire Creation
    3.Their own Death and Annihilation
    And this suffices for their belief in Allah’s existence.
    In fact, Allah is well aware of who unwittingly or deliberately distort the meaning of His messages, His Aayaat.
    Allah says:
    In Soorah Fussilat, Aayah 40
    VERILY, they who distort the meaning(who do Ilhaad) of Our mes­sages are not hidden from Us.Hence, which [of the two] will be in a better state – he that is [destined to be] cast into the fire, or he that shall come secure [before Us] on Resurrection Day? Do what you will: verily, He sees all that you do.
    http://honorablequran.com/41.htm
    I would also remind all my brothers and sisters in Islam who truly want to tread the path of Al Qur’aan to heed to this warning of Allah in Soorah An Nisaa, Aayah 65
    Allah says:
    But nay, by thy Sustainer! They do not [really] believe unless they make thee [O Prophet] a judge of all on which they disagree among themselves, and then find in their hearts no bar to an acceptance of thy decision and give themselves up [to it] in utter self-surrender.
    http://honorablequran.com/4.htm

    I have avoided the discussion of other Aayaat to help beginners in the debate to fully understand my reasoning.
    The attitude of dogmatism can only contribute to Ahaadeeth self-censorship, as is evident in the case of Mir Ali, not to the exploration of new vistas in the fascinating field of the exegesis of the Word of God.

    I would urge my brothers and sisters who agree with me, not to become dogmatic believers rather their reasoning should be based on Al Qur’aan.

    Allah says:
    In Soorah Al Maaidah, Aayah 15,16
    Now there has come unto you from God a light, and a clear Book
    Through which God shows unto all that seek His goodly acceptance the paths leading to salvation
    and, by His grace, brings them out of the depths of darkness into the light and guides them onto a straight way.

  27. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Wa’alaikum Salaam, Brother Muhammad Elijah,

    Your post above, to me only enhances my understanding of the verse, it does not contradict it in any way.

    Have they, then, never considered [God’s] mighty dominion over the heavens and the earth, and all the things that God has created, and [asked themselves] whether, perchance, the end of their own term might already have drawn nigh? In what other tiding, then, will they, after this, believe?

    As you correctly say:

    Here, Allah urges humans to consider and contemplate over:
    1.The Dominion over the heavens and the earth
    2. His entire Creation
    3.Their own Death and Annihilation
    And this suffices for their belief in Allah’s existence.

    I have looked at Allah’s creation and how He determines it, it compares to the perfection of His complete, perfect, and fully detailed book, Al Quran.
    But when I compare it to Hadith and Sunnah, I see huge contradictions, there is neither the perfection and conformance of Al Quran, but simple ignorance, and contradiction. I am not suggesting that there is no goodness In Sunnah and Hadith, but it is soiled by it’s close proximity to all of the manmade nonsense, and if generations of scholars have not been smart enough to clean it up, then I have no choice but to reject it completely in the fear that following it would lead me away from Allah’s Light.

    On the last sentence of the verse:

    In what other tiding, then, will they, after this, believe?

    The word which you have quoted as ‘tiding’ is clearly Hadeeth in the original Arabic. So after contemplating Allah’s creation and his dominion over it, and your own impending end, what will you follow? Allahs, other perfect creation Al Quran, or the manmade corruptions of the ‘tiding’ of Hadith and Sunnah?

    My choice is Allah’s own words, Al Quran!

    As you quoted:

    Now there has come unto you from God a light, and a clear Book
    Through which God shows unto all that seek His goodly acceptance the paths leading to salvation and, by His grace, brings them out of the depths of darkness into the light and guides them onto a straight way
    .

    You said:

    I would also remind all my brothers and sisters in Islam who truly want to tread the path of Al Qur’aan to heed to this warning of Allah in Soorah An Nisaa, Aayah 65
    Allah says:
    But nay, by thy Sustainer! They do not [really] believe unless they make thee [O Prophet] a judge of all on which they disagree among themselves, and then find in their hearts no bar to an acceptance of thy decision and give themselves up [to it] in utter self-surrender.

    As I have said before, only a living Prophet can be a judge, a dead prophet cannot! If we wish to make judgments based on Prophet Mohammed’s example it has to come from a reliable source, one guaranteed by Allah, that exists in only one form, Al Quran.

    Peace

  28. Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu ‘Alaikum Brother Khafi

    Your post above, to me only enhances my understanding of the verse, it does not contradict it in any way.

    I leave it up to Allah and honest readers to judge.

    I have looked at Allah’s creation and how He determines it, it compares to the perfection of His complete, perfect, and fully detailed book, Al Quran.

    No Muslim or Muslimah ascribes the perfection of Al Qur’aan to any extant collection of Ahaadeeth.

    No Muslim or Muslimah ascribes the perfection of Allah’s Rasool (s.a.a.w.s) to any of the Mahditheen.

    The word which you have quoted as ‘tiding’ is clearly Hadeeth in the original Arabic.

    Anyone who ascribes to the word ‘Hadeeth’ in this Aayah to refer to the Ahadeeth literature we know today is commiting the most heinous Ilhaad which if committed willingly leads to Hellfire according to Soorah Fussilat, Aayah 40.

    As I have said before, only a living Prophet can be a judge, a dead prophet cannot!

    1.Abubakr (r.a.a.) , ‘Umar (r.a.a.), Uthmaan (r.a.a.), Ali (r.a.a.) and all of the Sahaabah (r.a.a.) unanimously upheld His (s.a.a.w.s) decisions even after His demise.
    2. Has Soorah An Nisaa, Aayah 65, become obsolete after His (s.a.a.w.s) demise?
    3. Does any other Aayah of Al Qur’aan states that the previous injunction of Soorah An Nisaa, Aayah 65 has become obsolete?
    4. Why does Allah exhorts us to accept His (s.a.a.w.s) decisions to the extent that we would not even qualify as a believer,as a Muslim, if we refuse to do so?
    5. Why does Allah swear to the extent of invoking His own name to state the above?
    6. Why does Allah refer to making Him (s.a.a.w.s) a judge of all matters?
    7. Why does Allah refer to finding bar to an acceptance of His (s.a.a.w.s) decisions? Isn’t it not the case with the majority of us?

    If we wish to make judgments based on Prophet Mohammed’s example it has to come from a reliable source, one guaranteed by Allah, that exists in only one form, Al Quran.

    I am not a Muhaddith nor majority of the readers here to show the reliability of Ahaadeeth collections we know today. May Allah give Hidaayah to a European or an American convert who may be qualified enough to undertake such a daunting project.

    Deen was completed and perfected within the lifetime of Allah’s Rasool (s.a.a.w.s) which even you accept included the acceptance of all of His (s.a.a.w.s) decisions. Does the proclamation by Al Qur’aan in Soorah Al Maaidah, Aayah 3, of the completion and the perfection of Deen within the lifetime Allah’s Rasool (s.a.a.w.s) not qualify as a guarantee?

    If Deen was perfected within the lifetime Allah’s Rasool (s.a.a.w.s), doesn’t disregarding His (s.a.a.w.s) decisions constitute living an imperfect Deen?

    Don’t we see the gaurantee fulfilled in the Azaan that would continue to sound tillthe end of humanity? What benefit one may possibly obtain by Azaan? Has Azaan led even a single Muslim or Muslimah out of billions who lived throughout the ages, away from Allah’s light?
    Don’t we see the gaurantee fulfilled in the Salaatul Janaazah (the Funeral Prayer) that would continue to be performed for every dead Muslim and Muslimah till the end of humanity?What benefit one may possibly obtain by Salaatul Janaazah ? Has Salaatul Janaazah led even a single Muslim or Muslimah out of billions who lived throughout the ages, away from Allah’s light?

    Most importantly:
    Why has Allah continued to warn in Soorah An Noor, Aayah 63, throughout these ages that if anyone goes against His (s.a.a.w.s) bidding of should beware of a Fitna or Azaabun Aleem?
    Soorah An Noor
    Aayah 63
    Allah says:
    Let those who would go against His bidding beware, lest a Fitna befall them or grievous suffering befall them [in the life to come].

  29. draymusa says:

    Anyone who ascribes to the word ‘Hadeeth’ in this Aayah to refer to the Ahadeeth literature we know today is commiting the most heinous Ilhaad which if committed willingly leads to Hellfire according to Soorah Fussilat, Aayah 40.

    Why should the word “Hadith” in that ayah not be understood to include any and all Hadith?

  30. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Wa’alaikum Salam Brother Muhammad Elijah,

    You said:

    Deen was completed and perfected within the lifetime of Allah’s Rasool (s.a.a.w.s) which even you accept included the acceptance of all of His (s.a.a.w.s) decisions. Does the proclamation by Al Qur’aan in Soorah Al Maaidah, Aayah 3, of the completion and the perfection of Deen within the lifetime Allah’s Rasool (s.a.a.w.s) not qualify as a guarantee?

    No it doesn’t!

    The Prophet was an exemplar man during his lifetime, but since that time rulers, scholars, and clergy have made up things in his name to control those who have placed The Prophet into a position of High Esteem. Leading the Ummah further and further from Allah’s Light into the Darkness.

    You have a choice, the complete, perfect and fully detailed word of God, or the corrupted words of men.

    On the Day of Judgement, I will be able to stand up, and say, “I followed Your words Lord, I may have done it imperfectly, but I tried my best to live by the standards You Yourself gave us.”

    Will you be able to do the same ? Are the words you are following, the Guaranteed words of Allah, or are they simply what somebody says The Prophet said?

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