Quran & Hadith

Sep 8th, 2006, in News, by

The validity or otherwise of the hadith tradition and its relationship to the Quran and how Muslims understand their faith.

This post has been created due to the female circumcision thread having gone substantially off-topic. Hopefully, within the spirit of the site, commenters can make some reference to the situation in Indonesia and within Indonesian Muslim organisations such as NU, etc, vis-a-vis their understanding of the hadith tradition.


212 Comments on “Quran & Hadith”

  1. Fawzia says:

    @shuhei,

    You are looking (at Islam) with dark glasses, so even the light looks dark.

    There’s no point in answering you actually, as whatever we say you’ll find a way to refute it.

    When you really look, you’ll find. And you clearly look to attack Islam, and that’s why you keep finding all negative “facts” about Islam to do it.

    I have neither problems with facts or conclusions, & some stuff are really bad, with or without dark glasses.

    I think Nazism is bad, does that mean its my glasses which are dark? Or I say that the Taliban are bad, is it dark glasses?

    Obviously not all things are equally good.

    I’ll use an analogy. When I left my previous boss because he was such a mean man in my eyes, I don’t then go around and spread libels and defamation about him.

    I’m glad I am rid of that man, and that’s it. I move on with my life. I let people judge for themselves if the ex boss is really evil or not. If they think so, they’ll leave him, as well.

    Why don’t you do the same? Let time and human’s capability for advancement and rational thinking be the judge. You can’t conceal the truth forever. People will find out.

    Well, your boss isn’t really someone who harms our world, or can cause damage to people, so its foolish to spread stuff about him. I wouldn’t do that with a mean boss either.

    However, if your boss was(say) a pedophile who preyed on innocent, defenseless children, or a mass murderer, then you’d only be doing your duty by telling people how vile he is, even with gathering evidence of his crimes so that the cops can catch him.

    Its the same in my case, I can see & have seen the damage done by Islam in many places.

    Sure people would eventually find out if your boss was a pedophile, but by then he’d have damaged many little kids, you have an obligation to let people know before that happens, so that at least some kids are safe.

    There’s a difference between a mean person & a harmful person-there’s also a difference between a stupid faith & a dangerous one.

    But what is it that you gain by spreading hatred and probably misinformation like this?

    Those who hate Islam will still hate Islam, nothing changes.

    Those who love Islam will probably love Islam even more, so nothing gained either.

    Thre’s no misinformation I spread, I back it up with links whatever I say. Like I said something about Islam & women from Fatima Mernissi, she’s one of the world’s most famous Muslim feminists-she too feels that women were happier & had more rights before Islam.

    She has done extensive research on the issue, everything she says, she cites her sources.

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=fatima+mernissi+hadramaut&source=bl&ots=peLfFvvwic&sig=iM7d8wlUKt5bywInkwoJl–6iwI&hl=en&ei=q2A6Ss7RDdCMkAX1i-iYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

    But YOU, you yourself will get hurt even more, deep inside. Everything you say (they’re so negative) will reopen a deep wound in yourself. I pity you Fawzia. If you hate Islam so much, if you find Islam wrong, you should be able to find peace and happiness by leaving it.

    Not misery due to strong hatred like this.

    No need to waste your sympathy on me shuhei, I am extremely happy, having left that ugly faith, please spend your time & energy on people who are actually miserable, like the non Muslim citizens of Iran, Yemen, Saudi or the women in Afghanistan, Saudi etc.

    I have found personal peace, however, I can’t be really happy as a patriotic Iranian, as my once great nation is miserable due to Islam. Women are beaten up for not covering their head, even people who want to quit Islam are executed.

    If you have such deep sympathy within you, please spend it on the hundreds of people Muslims are killing every month, in many places in our world.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    You should concentrate on your new life, new belief (or disbelief) and not continously looking back. Promote that new belief in a peaceful and beautiful way, if you will, so people can have an alternative, if they want to.

    Please question your own motives for posting here.

    How can I promote an alternative, if people will be executed for leaving Islam in my country Iran-& in many others?

    Even in Malaysia, apostates from Islam are legally harassed.

    http://chongeng.blogsome.com/2007/04/03/dont-take-away-her-child/

    Please question your own motives for posting here.

    And I do hope you soon find the peace you are seeking when you left Islam.

    I have relative peace, however, please use your sympathies for the victims of Islam, as that Religion of Peace site I gave you a link to gives their locations & numbers.

  2. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    Even before your last posting, draymusa and shuhei would appear to have countered your arguments.

    shuhei said:

    There’s no point in answering you actually, as whatever we say you’ll find a way to refute it.

    shuhei continued:

    You should concentrate on your new life, new belief (or disbelief) and not continously looking back. Promote that new belief in a peaceful and beautiful way, if you will, so people can have an alternative, if they want to.

    Given the way that you have argued your point with negativity and hatred and the way that we have countered you with logical argument and good mamnners, what does this say about you and your choosen path and us and ours?

    I am quite likely practicing my Islam in a completely different way from both draymusa and shuhei, but we all three have followed the principles encompassed in Al Quran:

    “Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.” Al-Qur’an 16:125

    draymusa earlier said:

    the Quran is as good or bad as a reader wants it to be. This is becuae the reader’s understanding of the text says more about the reader than it does about the book. Every reader brings her or himself to the text, and the text acts as a mirror reflecting the heart and mind of the reader. The ugliness or beauty one sees is only a reflection of that heart and mind.

    This clearly reflects in your understanding of Al Quran and Islam, and even though you have become an atheist, it clearly show in you attitude towards your previous faith. As shuhei says:

    You should concentrate on your new life, new belief (or disbelief) and not continously looking back. Promote that new belief in a peaceful and beautiful way, if you will, so people can have an alternative, if they want to.

  3. Fawzia says:

    @draymusa

    One of the most important aspects that your are also ignoring, either deliberately or through simple ignorance, is context. If we continue reading, we see that immediately following this verse comes the instructions on how to dissolve the marriage. Taking this broader context into consideration show that “leave them” makes the most sense as the best translation for IDRIBHUNNA.

    Beat them & leave them are equally sensible in the context.
    After all, the three steps Allah teaches to resolve a dispute are talking, then separating, obviously the third step can be physical chastisement as well.
    Even without beating, does this verse sound like some epitome of gender equality to your brainwashed mind?
    Allah addresses men, & teaches them how to treat wives-it tells men, & men only, how to punish wives, first explaining, then separating etc.
    Allah doesn’t even bother to address women how to treat their husbands, whereas its as likely in the real world that husbands might be at fault, like wives.
    In the chapter on women, all Allah does is tell men how many wives to take, how to punish them for wrong doing etc!

    This is the problem. As you mentioned previous, the Quran is as good or bad as a reader wants it to be. This is becuae the reader’s understanding of the text says more about the reader than it does about the book. Every reader brings her or himself to the text, and the text acts as a mirror reflecting the heart and mind of the reader. The ugliness or beauty one sees is only a reflection of that heart and mind.

    Really? Then the Quran must have had the misfortune of being accepted by loads of really violent, misogynistic minds!
    This misfortune hasn’t happeed to those who understand Jewish, Christian or almost any other religion.
    Those who understand the Quran, all the nations, in the mid East, then Pakistan, Iran etc-are religiously intolerant & sexist.
    Increasingly places like Aceh too become the same as they understand it.
    Madrassas which teach the Quran breed future religious terrorists!
    And converts to Islam in the West or elsewhere too have a tendency to turn violent jihadis!
    Why doesn’t this happen in case of other faiths?
    Christian & Jews give equal rights to women in their laws, Christian schools churh out well educated folks.
    Yes, the reader influences a text, but texts too are varied in their potential for good or bad.
    Hitler’s Mein Kampf is a very different book from Gandhi’s, “The Story of my Experiments with Truth.”
    It wouldn’t be my inherent ugliness if I claim that the Mein Kampf is a bad book, it would be simple truthspeak. 🙂

  4. Fawzia says:

    @Muhammad Khafi,

    Even before your last posting, draymusa and shuhei would appear to have countered your arguments.

    If this is “countering” then no wonder Muslims need to have so many laws making it difficult to leave Islam or preach against Islam. 😉

    Given the way that you have argued your point with negativity and hatred and the way that we have countered you with logical argument and good mamnners, what does this say about you and your choosen path and us and ours?

    Who is we here? 😉

    Only you tried to put some counter arguments, Shuhei & draymusa simply told me I am incapable of comprehending & should stop attacking Islam. 😉

    Is this any sort of counter argument? 🙂

    I am quite likely practicing my Islam in a completely different way from both draymusa and shuhei, but we all three have followed the principles encompassed in Al Quran:

    “Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.” Al-Qur’an 16:125

    I am on the Internet, quite out of harm’s way now, shall I quote some rather nasty bits for your consumption now? 😉

    There are enough verses encouraging you to fight, kill etc you know.

    This clearly reflects in your understanding of Al Quran and Islam, and even though you have become an atheist, it clearly show in you attitude towards your previous faith.

    Why should my attitude towards my previous faith be good, please explain? What good is my previous faith doing in my nation, or the world, that I should be appreciative?

    Shuhei says I should stop preaching against Islam, & find peace, but I feel it would be wrong towards my nation Iran to stop preaching.

    Draymusa says that Quran is as good or as bad as anyone wants it to be, yet in nation after nation, its results have been appalling.

    I can’t find any principle in the whole of the al Quran which isn’t already existing in our world, which the al Quran can teach.

    I can even find anything which Christianity, Buddhism, Bahai etc don’t contain.

    However, I do find plenty of belligerent, misogynistic & unpleasant verses which can cause tremendous damage, which are causing damage.

  5. shuhei says:

    Fawzia,

    Islam doesn’t equal pedophile or nazism, that’s for sure.

    It even forbids these two crimes.

    You really understand nothing of Islam, nothing, except what you think you know.

    Millions of people in our world are killed one way or another because of violence and wars, not only by Muslims.

    What about the Tibetans, those in Myanmar, those in Palestine, etc?

    It is Muslim’s understanding or misunderstanding of Islam itself that has caused them to act wrongly.

    And that’s why I am really interested in exploring the type of Qur’an-Alone Islam, the one M. Khafi is trying hard to promote. I’m sure, with time, it will appeal to more and more people, intelligent people.

    Now, Let me tell you about my big family. My grandparents are Moslems. But their children are everything. They have Catholics, Protestants, and Hindus in the family.

    My Mom happens to be a devout Moslem (mainstream), she is going on hajj this year, but her siblings are not. So I have uncles and aunties, and cousins of all religions.

    Even among the Muslims, some pray regularly, some go on hajj, some don’t pray at all and do not even believe in praying. etc.

    My sister wears headscarf (because of her own choice) but I don’t. etc.

    And families like this are not uncommon in my country. But, yes, you are right, there are oppresed people in some other Muslim countries. And yes, even in my country, there are people who tries to force their belief on to others. And yes, my sympathy also goes to the victims (the oppressed).

    And that’s why it is necessary to spread the “real Islam”, Islam according to the Quran alone. Islam that doesn’t let its followers to do any harms and damages to others or to the world.

  6. Fawzia says:

    @shuhei,

    Islam doesn’t equal pedophile or nazism, that’s for sure.It even forbids these two crimes.

    I never claimed it equals either of these, I do however feel that the share of bad in Islam is significantly ore than any mythical good.

    Even without the pedophilia in the hadiths(Muhammad & Ayesha), there is quite a hint in the Quran of it.

    Quran 65:4
    And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have not yet had their courses. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

    Throughout the ages, the Muslim commentators of the Quran confirmed this explanation of the verse. Here are quotations from the most notable of them.

    Al- Tabari (839-923) said, “This also includes the ‘Iddah’ of girls who have not menstruated yet as they are such little.. if divorced after being sexually consummated in marriage”.

    Al-Baghawi (1045-1117) said, “Those little girls who have not reached menstruation age yet”.

    Az-Zammakhshari (1074-1143) said, “They are those little girls”.

    Al-Qurtubi (1204-1273) said, “She is the little girl”.

    Ibn Kathir (1302-1373) said, The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying: “and for those who have no courses”

    Al-Mahali and As-Syyouti (1445-1505) both said, “for how such young they are”.

    Al-Alousi (1802-1854) said, “Those little girls who have not got their menstruation period yet”.

    Next, we come to the lovely tolerance shown to the Jews in the Quran, this is from Islamonline, a “moderate” Muslim site:

    It only speaks of how Jews are described in the Quran, not even hadiths.

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545136&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

    Jews as Depicted in the Qur’an
    Question Dear Sheikh! As-Salam `Alaykum. Jews have played a considerable role throughout the history, before and after the advent of Islam. The Qur’an referred to them in many places. What, according to the Qur’an, are the main characteristics and qualities of Jews?
    Date 22/Mar/2004
    Name of Mufti `Atiyyah Saqr

    Topic Ideologies, Movements & Religions, Sciences of the Qur’an

    Answer

    Wa `Alaykum As-Salam Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh.
    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
    Dear questioner, we are really pleased to have your question and we pray to Allah to make our humble efforts, exerted solely for His Sake, come up to your expectation.

    As regards the question you posed, the following is the fatwa issued by Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, in which he states the following:

    “The Qur’an has specified a considerable deal of its verses to talking about Jews, their personal qualities and characteristics. The Qur’anic description of Jews is quite impartial; praising them in some occasions where they deserve praise and condemning them in other occasions where they practice blameworthy acts. Yet, the latter occasions outnumbered the former, due to their bad qualities and the heinous acts they used to commit.

    The Qur’an praises them on the verse that reads: “ And verily We gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favored them above (all) peoples.” (Al-Jathiyah:16) i.e. the peoples of their time.

    Among the bad qualities they were characterized with are the following:

    1. They used to fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah. Allah Almighty says: “ That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.” (Al-`Imran:75) Also: “The Jews say: Allah’s hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will.” (Al-Ma`idah:64)

    In another verse Almighty Allah says: “Verily Allah heard the saying of those who said, (when asked for contributions to the war): “Allah, forsooth, is poor, and we are rich! We shall record their saying with their slaying of the Prophets wrongfully and We shall say: Taste ye the punishment of burning!” (Al-`Imran:181)

    2. They love to listen to lies. Concerning this Allah says: “and of the Jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk” (Al-Ma’idah: 41)

    3. Disobeying Almighty Allah and never observing His commands. Allah says: “And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts.” (Al-Ma’idah: 13)

    4. Disputing and quarreling. This is clear in the verse that reads: “Their Prophet said unto them: Lo! Allah hath raised up Saul to be a king for you. They said: How can he have kingdom over us when we are more deserving of the kingdom than he is, since he hath not been given wealth enough?” (Al-Baqarah: 247)

    5. Hiding the truth and standing for misleading. This can be understood from the verse that reads: “…distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture.” (Al-`Imran: 78)

    6. Staging rebellion against the Prophets and rejecting their guidance. This is clear in the verse: “And when ye said: O Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly.” (Al-Baqarah: 55)

    7. Hypocrisy. In a verse, we read: “And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.” (Al-Baqarah: 14) In another verse, we read: “Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practice it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense?” (Al-Baqarah: 44)

    8. Giving preference to their own interests over the rulings of religion and the dictates of truth. Allah says: “…when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?” (Al-Baqarah: 87)

    9. Wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them. This is clear in the verse that reads: “Many of the People of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them.” (Al-Baqarah: 109)

    10. They feel pain to see others in happiness and are gleeful when others are afflicted with a calamity. This is clear in the verse that reads: “If a lucky chance befall you, it is evil unto them, and if disaster strike you they rejoice thereat.” (Al-`Imran:120)

    11. They are known of their arrogance and haughtiness. They claimed to be the sons and of Allah and His beloved ones. Allah tells us about this in the verse that reads: “The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones.” (Al-Ma’idah: 18)

    12. Utilitarianism and opportunism are among their innate traits. This is clear in the verse that reads: “And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people’s wealth by false pretences.” (An-Nisa’: 161)

    13. Their impoliteness and indecent way of speech is beyond description. Referring to this, the Qur’anic verse reads: “Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: “We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not” and “Listen to us!” distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: “We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us” it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.” (An-Nisa’:46)

    14. It is easy for them to slay people and kill innocents. Nothing in the world is dear to their hearts than shedding blood and murdering human beings. They never give up this trait even with the Messengers and the Prophets. Allah says: “…and slew the prophets wrongfully.” (Al-Baqarah: 61)

    15. They are merciless and heartless. In this meaning, the Qur’anic verse explains: “Then, even after that, your hearts were hardened and became as rocks, or worse than rocks, for hardness.” (Al-Baqarah: 74)

    16. They never keep their promises or fulfill their words. Almighty Allah says: “Is it ever so that when ye make a covenant a party of you set it aside? The truth is, most of them believe not.” (Al-Baqarah: 100)

    17. They rush hurriedly to sins and compete in transgression. Allah says: “They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do!” (Al-MA’idah:79)

    18. Cowardice and their love for this worldly life are their undisputable traits. To this, the Qur’an refers when saying: “Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah. That is because they are a folk who understand not. They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified villages or from behind walls. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are divers.” (Al-Hashr:13-14) Allah Almighty also says: “And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters.” (Al-Baqarah:96)

    19. Miserliness runs deep in their hearts. Describing this, the Qur’an states: “Or have they even a share in the Sovereignty? Then in that case, they would not give mankind even the speck on a date stone.” (An-Nisa’:53)

    20. Distorting Divine Revelation and Allah’s Sacred Books. Allah says in this regard: “Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands anthem say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.” (Al-Baqara: 79)

    After this clear explanation, we would like to note that these are but some of the most famous traits of the Jews as described in the Qur’an. They have revolted against the Divine ordinances, distorted what has been revealed to them and invented new teachings which, they claimed, were much more better than what has been recorded in the Torah. It was for these traits that they found no warm reception in all countries where they tried to reside. Rather, they would either be driven out or live in isolation. It was Almighty Allah who placed on them His Wrath and made them den of humiliation due to their transgression. Almighty Allah told us that He’d send to them people who’d pour on them rain of severe punishment that would last till the Day of Resurrection. All this gives us glad tidings of the coming victory of Muslims over them once Muslims stick to strong faith and belief in Allah and adopt the modern means of technology.”

    Almighty Allah knows best.

    Next, I will quote extracts from the Mein Kampf:
    http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_HOLocaust/documents/part1/doc4.html

    …The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies the value of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and its culture. As a foundation of the universe, this doctrine would bring about the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man. And as, in this greatest of all recognizable organisms, the result of an application of such a law could only be chaos, on earth it could only be destruction for the inhabitants of this planet.
    If, with the help of his Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men.
    Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands.
    Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord [p. 60].
    …To what an extent the whole existence of this people is based on a continuous lie is shown incomparably by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, so infinitely hated by the Jews. They are based on a forgery, the Frankfurter Zeitung moans and screams once every week: the best proof that they are authentic… For once this book has become the common property of a people, the Jewish menace may be considered as broken [p. 279].
    …His unfailing instinct in such things scents the original soul (die urspruengliche Seele) in everyone, and his hostility is assured to anyone who is not spirit of his spirit. Since the Jew is not the attacked but the attacker, not only anyone who attacks passes as his enemy, but also anyone who resists him. But the means with which he seeks to break such reckless but upright souls is not honest warfare, but lies and slander.
    Here he stops at nothing, and in his vileness he becomes so gigantic that no one need be surprised if among our people the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
    The ignorance of the broad masses about the inner nature of the Jew, the lack of instinct and narrow-mindedness of our upper classes, make the people an easy victim for this Jewish campaign of lies.
    While from innate cowardice the upper classes turn away from a man whom the Jew attacks with lies and slander, the broad masses from stupidity or simplicity believe everything. The state authorities either cloak themselves in silence or, what usually happens, in order to put an end to the Jewish press campaign, they persecute the unjustly attacked, which, in the eyes of such an official ass, passes as the preservation of state authority and the safeguarding of law and order.
    Slowly fear and the Marxist weapon of Jewry descend like a nightmare on the mind and soul of decent people.
    They begin to tremble before the terrible enemy and thus have become his final victim.
    The Jews domination in the state seems so assured that now not only can he call himself a Jew again, but he ruthlessly admits his ultimate national and political designs. A section of his race openly owns itself to be a foreign people, yet even here they lie. For while the Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesnt even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organization for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.
    It is a sign of their rising confidence and sense of security that at a time when one section is still playing the German, Frenchman, or Englishman, the other with open effrontery comes out as the Jewish race.
    How close they see approaching victory can be seen by the hideous aspect which their relations with the members of other peoples takes on.
    With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people. With every means he tries to destroy the racial foundations of the people he has set out to subjugate. Just as he himself systematically ruins women and girls, he does not shrink back from pulling down the blood barriers for others, even on a large scale. It was and it is Jews who bring the Negroes into the Rhineland, always with the same secret thought and clear aim of ruining the hated white race by the necessarily resulting bastardization, throwing it down from its cultural and political height, and himself rising to be its master.
    For a racially pure people which is conscious of its blood can never be enslaved by the Jew. In this world he will forever be master over bastards and bastards alone.
    And so he tries systematically to lower the racial level by a continuous poisoning of individuals.
    And in politics he begins to replace the idea of democracy by the dictatorship of the proletariat.
    In the organized mass of Marxism he has found the weapon which lets him dispense with democracy and in its stead allows him to subjugate and govern the peoples with a dictatorial and brutal fist.
    He works systematically for revolutionization in a twofold sense: economic and political.
    Around peoples who offer too violent a resistance to attack from within he weaves a net of enemies, thanks to his international influence, incites them to war, and finally, if necessary, plants a flag of revolution on the very battlefields.
    In economics he undermines the states until the social enterprises which have become unprofitable are taken from the state and subjected to his financial control.
    In the political field he refuses the state the means for its self-preservation, destroys the foundations of all national self-maintenance and defense, destroys faith in the leadership, scoffs at its history and past, and drags everything that is truly great into the gutter.
    Culturally, he contaminates art, literature, the theater, makes a mockery of natural feeling, overthrows all concepts of beauty and sublimity, of the noble and the good, and instead drags men down into the sphere of his own base nature.
    Religion is ridiculed, ethics and morality represented as outmoded, until the last props of a nation in its struggle for existence in this world have fallen.
    Now begins the great last revolution. In gaining political power the Jew casts off the few cloaks that he still wears. The democratic peoples Jew becomes the blood-Jew and tyrant over peoples. In a few years he tries to exterminate the national intelligentsia and by robbing the peoples of their natural intellectual leadership makes them ripe for the slaves lot of permanent subjugation.
    The most frightful example of this kind is offered by Russia, where he killed or starved about thirty million people with positively fanatical savagery, in part amid inhuman tortures, in order to give a gang of Jewish journalists and stock exchange bandits domination over a great people.
    The end is not only the end of the freedom of the peoples oppressed by the Jew, but also the end of this parasite upon the nations. After the death of his victim, the vampire sooner or later dies too [pp. 293-296].

    A. Hitler, Mein Kampf (“My Struggle”), Houghton Mifflin, New York: Hutchinson Publ. Ltd., London, 1969.

    Copyright ©2004 Yad Vashem The Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority

    There really is little reason to think that the Quran is any less hateful towards Jews than the Mein Kampf, as seen from the Quranic verses in even a “moderate” site! 😉

    No wonder the Palestinian Mufti Hajji Amin al Husseni was such a close friend & helper of Hitler throughout the war years! 🙂

    You really understand nothing of Islam, nothing, except what you think you know.

    This is true of everybody, everyone only understand what they know! What is so grand & glorious in Islam to understand, anywhere on earth.

    Millions of people in our world are killed one way or another because of violence and wars, not only by Muslims.

    What about the Tibetans, those in Myanmar, those in Palestine, etc?

    It is Muslim’s understanding or misunderstanding of Islam itself that has caused them to act wrongly.

    This is tu quoque logical fallacy(look it up). True many people are killed in many places, however all aren’t killed in religious wars.

    That site I gave a link to describes explicitly religious killings, not Communist inspired killings, or atheistic movements, or army based.

    The killers use religion as the cause & justification of their acts. They rally their followers with verses from the Quran & hadiths, cite religious propaganda to gain followers.

    Its impossible to make a site like that, with the daily killings of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists etc-with only religion inspired killings in so many locations.

    Also, there is no misunderstanding, all the verses even about Jews in the Quran as cited by Islamonline is pretty hateful & insulting. Many other verses exhort Muslims to fight others.

    And that’s why I am really interested in exploring the type of Qur’an-Alone Islam, the one M. Khafi is trying hard to promote. I’m sure, with time, it will appeal to more and more people, intelligent people.

    Okay, lets look at Quranic verses themselves:

    Qur’an (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.” There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

    Qur’an (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”

    Qur’an (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

    Qur’an (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

    Qur’an (3:151)
    – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to Allah’).

    Qur’an (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers.

    Qur’an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”

    Qur’an (4:89)
    – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

    Qur’an (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” This passage not only criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn’t mean holy war in the Qur’an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man’s protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).

    Qur’an (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.

    Qur’an (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

    Qur’an (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

    Qur’an (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”

    Qur’an (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah” From the historical context we know that the “persecution” spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad’s intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until “religion is only for Allah.”

    Qur’an (8:57) – “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”

    Qur’an (8:59-60)
    – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”

    Qur’an (9:5)
    – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.” According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.

    Qur’an (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…”

    Qur’an (9:20)
    – “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The “striving” spoken of here is Jihad.

    Qur’an (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” “People of the Book” refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final “revelations” from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad’s companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

    Qur’an (9:30) – “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”

    Qur’an (9:38-39) – “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.” This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

    Qur’an (9:41)
    – “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.” See also the verse that follows (9:42) – “If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them” This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

    Qur’an (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.” Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today’s devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

    Qur’an (9:88) – “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”

    Qur’an (9:111) – “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”

    Qur’an (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”

    Qur’an (21:44) – “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?”

    Qur’an (25:52) – “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur’an).” “Strive against” is Jihad – obviously not in the personal context. It’s also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

    Qur’an (47:4) – “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,”

    Qur’an (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,”

    Qur’an (48:17) – “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.” Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means ‘spiritual struggle.’ Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?

    Qur’an (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves” Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.

    Qur’an (61:4) – “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way” Religion of Peace, indeed!

    Qur’an (61:10-12) – “O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity.” This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

    Qur’an (66:9)
    – “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.” The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites” – those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

    Much of the Quran is nothing but a simple war manual, even in the earlier verses when Muhammad couldn’t yet assemble an army, the verses are hate filled, describing unbelievers as the “worst of beasts”.

    Muhammad Khafi has done away with hadiths entirely, & is trying hard to explain away so much war, violence & mayhem-yet we can see its not particularly successful. Had it been sticking to the Quran & only Jews wouldn’t enable Islamonline to find so many hate verses, would it? 😉

    As regards your large & multi faith family, you are fortunate that Indonesia, in South East Asia is so far away from Saudi, that till recently, few could read the Quran in Arabic or travel to Saudi.

    That was the secret of Indonesia’s long tolerance & relative gender equality.

    However, now Malaysia too has a religiously intolerant Constitution, as does Brunei. Aceh has compulsory dress codes, there have been Jemiah Islamiah & terrorist bombings in quite a few places, & Muslims are marrying underage girls.

    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2768/pujiono-cahyo/

    In time, things will worsen-& all the intolerant & misogynistic verses of the Quran will make matters worse.

    Imagine with Quran 2:282, your witness in financial matters will be half a man’s!

    Before Islam, Khadija was Arabia’s richest & most successful businessperson, she could easily handle financial matters, now such women don’t exist in Saudi.

    Gradually, this will be other places’ fate, as I can see this is already Aceh’s fate. 🙂

  7. Barry Prima says:

    Fawzia..

    Do you really think youre bringing anything new ? You think that muslims have never thought about such things before and we are going to be deeply shocked/disturbed by your revelations.
    Cut and paste jobs of english transalations (or even arabic ones) will not defeat a religion that has maintained for 1400 years.
    These are the ABC of anti Islam arguments,that we have all heard a millions times even on this forum. They really dont bother any intelligent muslims who have approached these verses/questions with honesty.
    Instead of demanding answers like an impetuous child, just have to read elswhere on the forum for Muslim explanations .

    I am extremely happy, having left that ugly faith!
    If a person leaves Islam,there will be strong emotional reasons for doing ,born out of their personal experince or on some level intellectual understanding of it. which will usually compel them to become an opponent of Islam as you are are so proving,hence the strong taboo and intolerance towards apostasy.
    It is naturual for any ideology that is right or believes itself to be right to want to protect itself against attack.It has to do so by both compulsion and love.That is the naturual law of things.Why should Islam have to feel apologetic for that? Western societies try not only to defend their notion of democracy and freedom but proleytise it by both covert and overt strategies.They are the worst as they dont recognise the naturual hypocrisy that arises from assuming a position of equality and freedom in their terms.

    Speaking from the flip side the quran also says `there is no compulsion in religion’.It gives you both the carrott and stick,basic human psychology or basic yin yang metaphysics!What is required is balance.Both Secular and Religous societies in the present age have lost that balance .

    Allahs mercy overides his wrath si the guiding principle is In Islam. The injunction of no compulsion is explicit and apparent the death to apostates injunction is contextual and less explicit,but it is there in the background for a very good reason.!

    You are not the first to leave Islam and many muslims have considered leaving Islam and do so on a daily basis.It is the strong sense of fear that forces muslims who are sincere to dig really really deep before a casual/superficial rejection of religion/Islam.
    Religion is not one level of truth that is either right or wrong,it is multi level.

    Freedom to choose whatever ideology one wants does not always serve humanity any better than state/religous pressure to conform to a certain ideology.IN both cases too much of eihter freedom or control is obviously a bad thing.

    Most human beings are machines/sheep and always will be ,and they become even bigger more stupid machines/slaves and sheep when you dangle the illusion of freedom under their silly noses.Religion saves them form their stupidity by acknowledging this and that is why on a certain level religons embraces ignorance and stupidity.
    People respond to religon because of a kind of emotional lintellligence that recognises we are stupid and need religon to save us from our own stupidity.
    Religous people have wise ignorance, irreligous people who think they are free have an ignorant wisdom.
    (This is a generalization of mass social behaviour of course, a man may recognise he is stupid but on some other level he may also think he is very smart(like a terrorist for eg)


    That was the secret of Indonesia’s long tolerance & relative gender equality.

    So what youre saying that Indonesians are ignorant and never understood Islam,i guess they never understood Buddhism,hinduism etc either? So i guess theyll be too ignorant to understand your brand of whatever it is that you want to preach either?
    Really that is a massive insult,not so much to Islam as a religion,but indonesians as a people and their culture!

    You might say i insulted the majority of the worlds population in the sentence before,but if you read carefully,what im really saying is that simple stupid people are more intelligent than so called free intellgient ones and fortunately most of the world still subscribes to strong religous instincts and are thus inteligent machines/sheep/slaves because we know at least that they are slaves!

    Before Islam, Khadija was Arabia’s richest & most successful businessperson, she could easily handle financial matters, now such women don’t exist in Saudi.
    And one of the biggest reasons for that was the Prophet himself,honest diplomatic and expert business man that he was.!So i guess she was supid too to give it all up for false prophet.Remeber the first convert to Islam was a woman too!Of the worlds richest people how many are women?Is that sommehow the fault of Islam?
    Islam certainly did not stop women becoming wealthy,it is the only religon that formally recognised the womans personal wealth as independetn of her husbands!

    I do however feel that the share of bad in Islam is significantly more than any mythical good.
    You should rephrase that to :In my personal experince and limit it to that. In the personal experince of many others the good outways the bad…and yes even believers have to accept the bad of religion.
    No religous person will say that they expect religon to be a good thing all the time.It is this wet liberal idea that religion has to be somehow a panacae, a cure for all,a nice fluffy feel good thing that leads to people rejection of it.
    Sometimes religon feels like shit,god seems like a monster..but its all about putting things into a larger picture.
    Religion is reality and reality is both ugly and beautiful,in fact religon is about accepting the ugliness in man and transforming it into good.Islam is the meeting of man as such with god as such.

    Even without beating, does this verse sound like some epitome of gender equality to your brainwashed mind?

    Gender equality..what a myth!Muslims who try to pretend their is gender equality are acting like weak women !
    Men and women are different (you just have to look at them)…so how can they be equal?Women are superior in some respects than men and men in others!

    This misfortune hasn’t happeed to those who understand Jewish, Christian or almost any other religion.
    So you never heard of Jews christians or people of other religions or people without religion beating their women? Really you have a very utopian view on non islamic socieites.
    In fact the prohibition of Alcohol is properbly the best mitigator of violence towards women!

  8. draymusa says:

    >>Beat them & leave them are equally sensible in the context.<>After all, the three steps Allah teaches to resolve a dispute are talking, then separating, obviously the third step can be physical chastisement as well.
    Even without beating, does this verse sound like some epitome of gender equality<>Allah addresses men, & teaches them how to treat wives-it tells men, & men only, how to punish wives, first explaining, then separating etc.
    Allah doesn’t even bother to address women how to treat their husbands, whereas its as likely in the real world that husbands might be at fault, like wives.<>Then the Quran must have had the misfortune of being accepted by loads of really violent, misogynistic minds!<>This misfortune hasn’t happeed to those who understand Jewish, Christian or almost any other religion.<<

    Once again, you demonstrate gross ignorance, this time the history and texts of Christinaity and Judaism and the societies that practice them. The world has historically been quite misogynistic, regardless of religion. Even today, in the secular US, a woman makes about $0.70 for each $1.00 a man makes, and the gap widens as you claim the corporate ladder. Domestic violence was quite socially acceptable here as little as forty years ago.

  9. draymusa says:

    >>There really is little reason to think that the Quran is any less hateful towards Jews than the Mein Kampf, <>Qur’an (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the ay of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers.<<

    You now demonstrate dishonesty as well as ignorance. The above is not Quran 4:74.

    Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory – Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

    In addition to changing the words of the verse and adding words that are not there, you also failed to quote 4:75:

    And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

    Qur’an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”<<

  10. Fawzia says:

    Once again, you demonstrate gross ignorance, this time the history and texts of Christinaity and Judaism and the societies that practice them. The world has historically been quite misogynistic, regardless of religion. Even today, in the secular US, a woman makes about $0.70 for each $1.00 a man makes, and the gap widens as you claim the corporate ladder. Domestic violence was quite socially acceptable here as little as forty years ago.

    True, but all people & all places have never been & still aren’t as misogynistic as each other. There are places which are almost equal, & others which are very sexist.

    Domestic violence would be unacceptable to pre Islamic Khadija, Arabia’s most successful businesswoman! Why, Muhammad couldn’t even take a second wife while married to her, although he acquired a large harem after she died! 🙂

    If you want, please read the wealth of information about women like Khadija & Sajah in Arabia before Muhammad in Fatima Mernissi’s book, she is a Muslim feminist & an immensely respected scholar globally.

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=fatima+mernissi+hadramaut&source=bl&ots=peLfFvvwic&sig=iM7d8wlUKt5bywInkwoJl–6iwI&hl=en&ei=q2A6Ss7RDdCMkAX1i-iYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

    Even the nation you live in Indonesia, was quite an egalitarian place pre Islam, the Indonesian Minangkabaus passed the family name down from the mother to daughter, in Java property was divided equally between male & female offspring(daughter didn’t get half son’s share, as the Quranic rule states), & kinship was reckoned bilaterally.

    It is shockingly ignorant to claim that Minangkabaus or Javanese women or even women like Khadija or the “Prophetess” Sajah in pre Islamic Arabia would have tolerated domestic violence upon themselves.

    Once again, you demonstrate gross ignorance, this time the history and texts of Christinaity and Judaism and the societies that practice them. The world has historically been quite misogynistic, regardless of religion. Even today, in the secular US, a woman makes about $0.70 for each $1.00 a man makes, and the gap widens as you claim the corporate ladder. Domestic violence was quite socially acceptable here as little as forty years ago.

    True, but all people & all places have never been & still aren’t as misogynistic as each other. There are places which are almost equal, & others which are very sexist.

    Domestic violence would be unacceptable to pre Islamic Khadija, Arabia’s most successful businesswoman! Why, Muhammad couldn’t even take a second wife while married to her, although he acquired a large harem after she died! 🙂

    If you want, please read the wealth of information about women like Khadija & Sajah in Arabia before Muhammad in Fatima Mernissi’s book, she is a Muslim feminist & an immensely respected scholar globally.

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=fatima+mernissi+hadramaut&source=bl&ots=peLfFvvwic&sig=iM7d8wlUKt5bywInkwoJl–6iwI&hl=en&ei=q2A6Ss7RDdCMkAX1i-iYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

    Even the nation you live in Indonesia, was quite an egalitarian place pre Islam, the Indonesian Minangkabaus passed the family name down from the mother to daughter, in Java property was divided equally between male & female offspring(daughter didn’t get half son’s share, as the Quranic rule states), & kinship was reckoned bilaterally.

    It is shockingly ignorant to claim that Minangkabaus or Javanese women or even women like Khadija or the “Prophetess” Sajah in pre Islamic Arabia would have tolerated domestic violence upon themselves.

    Various ancient societies were of various kinds, there existed the Minangkabaus & other matrilineal groups & there were abusive patriarchal societies as well, just like there are societies like the Taliban & societies like Sweden today.

    Besides, there is little point in saying something is justified because the Quran was revealed so many years ago in so & so place, because the Quran claims to be for all mankind, the very last book sent to mankind & it claims to be revealed in easy Arabic, easy to comprehend.

    Today, in much of the world, wife beating under any circumstances is spousal abuse & a good enough reason for a wife to seek divorce, even forcing a wife to sleep on another bed\the floor as the second step in 4:34 suggests is spousal abuse.

    No Khadija, Muhammad’s pre Islamic wife or Minangkabau woman would stand such treatment.

    Thus, if there’s so much confusion over what is or isn’t meant to be wife beating, maybe Allah isn’t as clear as He thinks He is! 🙂

    “Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.” [12:2]

    “Behold, We have made it a Qur’an in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand.” [43:3]

  11. Fawzia says:

    You now demonstrate dishonesty as well as ignorance. The above is not Quran 4:74.

    Really??? Let me requote what I wrote & what you wrote about Quran 4:74.

    I wrote:

    Qur’an (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the ay of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

    You wrote:

    Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory – Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

    Exactly the same! Which words did I change please? 🙂
    I suspect, in your hurry to criticize me, you’ve forgotten to see my quotation marks?

    I added no words that aren’t there:

    The last bit I wrote was my interpretation of what happens with verses like these:

    After finishing the Quranic verse, which I finished with quotation marks, I wrote that verses like these caused the early Muslims to wage war on others & encourage today’s suicide bombers!

    A little explanation for you:

    This mark ” shows that a quotation is beginning. ” Shows that a quotation is ending.

    I quoted both.

    Okay, even the next verse, what is its speciality?

    Let me quote it now:

    ” 4:75 “And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!”

    Again, people are encouraged to fight. And what is the criteria for “oppressed people”? Even Germans after World War 1 felt oppressed, due to being defeated, & what they felt were Jews dominating their economy!

    Was that good enough reason to start off fighting, killing Jews & killing millions of people?

    Please note, that what I write without “-” isn’t adding words, they’re my words, so don’t again believe that I add words!

    Even the next verse encourages fighting:

    Qur’an (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”

    See? Verse after verse, there’s fighting & more fighting & the Quran manages to portray a society & circumstance of encouragin people to constantly be at war, & feel oppressed for real & imagined grievances.

    This is the context of all the latter verses, constant war.

    No wonder Muslims today too imagine in many parts of the world that they’re “oppressed”(although non Muslim nations generally give Muslim citizens far more religious freedom than Muslims give non Muslims) & break out into riots, terrorist attacks or sabotage the secular constitutions of Muslim secular nations to have Islamized laws!

  12. draymusa says:

    >>Even the nation you live in Indonesia<<

    Your ignorance is matched by your assumptions. I do not live in Indonesia. You really need to seek information instead of blindly making assumptions.

    I am well aware of Fatima Mernissi. I require the students in my course on women in Islam to read her work I suggest you read her book, The Veil and the Male Elite

    http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254710099&sr=8-5

    You should also read Leila Ahmed's Women and Gender in Islam.

    http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254710099&sr=8-5

    Then, you should read Amina Wadud's Quran and Woman.

    http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254710099&sr=8-5

    The Asma Barlas' Belieiving Women.

    http://www.amazon.com/Believing-Women-Islam-Patriarchal-Interpretations/dp/0292709048/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254708475&sr=1-1

    You should become better acquainted with the great Muslim women scholars who clearly understand the Quran and Muslim history.

  13. Fawzia says:

    @draymusa,

    Your ignorance is matched by your assumptions. I do not live in Indonesia. You really need to seek information instead of blindly making assumptions.

    Allright, so you don’t live in Indonesia, sorry about that. The majority of folks who visit these forums do(I can give you a link from Alexa as evidence).

    I don’t live here either, I am an American of Iranian Arab ancestry(spent my childhood in Iran), my uncle is married to an Indonesian Javanese lady, I have spent many of my holidays here.

    Well, as you now give me so many links, trying to prove your extensive knowledge, I presume you will know some stuf about the situation of women in the world’s most populous Muslim nation-Indonesia. Indonesian Muslim women live better than most other Muslim women.

    Can you please tell me what “rights”, Islam gave Indonesian Muslim women which they lacked previously?

    Indonesians-the majority live in Java, gave women equal inheritance compared to their male siblings, Quran promises half.Even kinship is reckoned bilaterally, not simply patrilineally.

    Indonesian Minangkabau women inherited everything, property passed from mother to daughter, again loads more than what Quran gives.

    Women in Indonesia actively participated economically long before Islam, had every right to initiate divorce, gained custody of children after divorce.

    What special privilege did Islam give these women, which their traditional laws lacked?

    After Islam, many devout Muslims give their daughters half the son’s inheritance, even many Minangkabaus today give women half their brother’s inheritance in case of self earned property-as the Quran dictates.

    In Aceh, women are caned for dressing immodestly.

    Indonesian old men are now marrying little girls.

    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2768/pujiono-cahyo/

    So please, you who claim to be a scholar, please enlighten me, what extra rights did Islam bring to Indonesian women(I have shown you how their rights deteriorated with Islam).

    I am well aware of Fatima Mernissi. I require the students in my course on women in Islam to read her work I suggest you read her book, The Veil and the Male Elite

    I assure you, I have read all her works, I find them enjoyable & enlightening. I have found nothing which explained away Islam’s misogyny to me. Instead, she gives plenty of examples of extremely powerful & successful women in pre Islamic Arabia, I don’t find such women in Saudi or Yemen, the first two converts to Islam.

    I fail to see how women whom Mernissi & Ahmed mention-like Khadija, Prophetess Sajah, ridda rebel Salma, Hadramaut women etc-can vanish with Islam from these regions, without any misogyny on the part of Islam-the change which happened there.

    Both Leila Ahmed & Mernissi mention how Islam consolidated the trend away from matrilineal customs to patriarchal, patrilineal ones.

    Java is still a largely bilateral region, Minangkabaus still matrilineal, Islam is doing the same in these places, women are inheriting less than they did.

    I have read Leila Ahmed’s works as well, I respect her scholarship. She too says what saw mentioned in Fatima Mernissi’s book, that many women even in Arabia were better off before Islam.

    She also speaks of the many marriage & matrilineal customs amongst quite a few tribes of pre Islamic Arabia, about the contrast between the lives of Muhammad’s pre Islamic wife Khadija, a successful & independent businesswoman, & little Ayesha. She also speaks about the Prophetess Sajah, the Ridda rebel Salma etc.

    It is quite clear from both Fatima Mernissi & Leila Ahmed’s work that there were plenty of pre Islamic women with tremendous rights-exactly like Javanses & Minangkabau women still are(fortunately they’re located faraway from Islamic heartlands).

    I have read Asma Barlas as well.

    Faith is a very easy thing to increase & hold onto, & an extremely difficult thing to abandon. I read all that I could in an attempt to save my sinking faith, before I realised I couldn’t call myself Muslim.

    Yet for every convert or Muslimah writer, there is an apostate(even though it is legally impossible for many Muslims to leave Islam).

    Have you read these works? These are apostate women.

    Parvin Darabi’s Rage Against the Veil

    http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Against-Veil-Courageous-Dissident/dp/1573926825

    A book about Wafa Sultan

    http://www.amazon.com/Wonderwoman-Wafa-Sultan-American-Enterprise/dp/B000M8NH6Y

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    http://www.amazon.com/Infidel-Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali/dp/0743289684

    Nonie Darwaish

    http://www.amazon.com/Now-They-Call-Infidel-Renounced/dp/1595230319

    You should become better acquainted with the great Muslim women scholars who clearly understand the Quran and Muslim history.

    Yawn, been there done that. Except Amina Wadud, I have read all that you gave links to. I have read Amina Wadud’s articles online, I will get hold of that book soon.

    As I said, faith is the hardest thing to let go.

    Both Leila Ahmed & Fatima Mernissi show many extremely powerful, successful women in the regions of what is today Saudi & Yemen pre Islam, how in many ways their rights deteriorated, how many of these women were happier pre Islam etc.

    You have ecome clearly acquainted with Mernissi & Leila Ahmed, what do you think of all those successful pre Islamic women, those customs in many tribes which gave women so many rights-to become rebels, Prophetesses, businesswomen like Khadija-all of which are impossible in Saudi & Yemen today?

    Also, what do you think Islam contributed in the area of women’s rights in Indonesia\Malaysia?

    Quran may reduce equal inheritance to half inheritance, indeed many devout Muslims are giving their female offsprings half inheritance, but what improvement?

    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/181/support-for-sharia-islamic-radicalism/

    Female children should only receive half the share of male children in inheritance.
    Women – 54%.
    Men – 54%.

    In country after country, Islam is retarding progress & women’s rights, sometimes its downright regressive. It did away with the Khadijas & Sajahs of Saudi from its inception, a point which both Mernissi & Ahmed concur.

    It did the same slowly in other places.

    I can see the same in Iran, with my Bahai & Zoroastrian acquaintances-these groups were far more egalitarian, as were the Iranian apostates from Islam. The non practicing Muslims were next.

    Worst were all the Muslims who happened to take Islam seriously.

    In Indonesia, its a similar situation with Aceh, the first place to be stricken with Islam-which has compulsory dresscodes & anachronistic punishments.

  14. Shuhei says:

    Hi Fawzia,

    I went to check out the links provided by draymusa.

    There are books sold by Amazon on women and Islam.

    This is the excerpt that I got from one of Mernissi’s books.

    You like to use her so much as an example of how discriminative Islam is, yet from the excerpt alone (below) we see that she doesn’t think so at all.

    So who is the one wishy washy here?

    From Publishers Weekly
    Muhammad was a chief of state who publicly acknowledged the importance of affection and sexuality. He was a polygynous husband whose wives were not just background figures but often shared decision-making with him. According to Moroccan sociologist Mernissi ( Beyond the Veil ), the founder of Islam asserted the equality of women, rejected slavery and envisioned an egalitarian society. Mernissi further claims that successive Muslim priests manipulated and distorted sacred texts, from the seventh century onward, in an effort to maintain male privileges. Her close textual analyses of the Hadith , or stories of words and deeds attributed to the Prophet, support her far-reaching reinterpretation of the historic roots of Islam and its modern tendency to reduce woman to a “submissive, marginal creature.”
    Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc. –This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

    From Library Journal
    Mernissi, an internationally known Moroccan sociologist, endeavors to show that discrimination against women, so common in the Muslim world today, is not a fundamental tenet of Islam as many contemporary male Muslims would like us to believe. Her basic premise is that Islam is inherently egalitarian and, using extensive documentation from the Koran, the Hadith, and other Islamic historical commentary,

    Mernissi successfully proves her hypothesis. While doing so, she teaches the reader a great deal about Mohammed (the man as well as the prophet), his wives, his companions, and early Islamic society. Like Mernissi’s other books ( Beyond the Veil , Indiana Univ. Pr., 1987; Doing Daily Battle , Rutgers Univ. Pr., 1989; Women in Emergent Morocco , Flame Internat., 1982), this fascinating, well-written, and well-documented work is an excellent addition to scholarship on Muslim women. Recommended for academic libraries and others with women’s studies or Middle East collections.
    – Ruth K. Baacke, Bellingham P.L., Wash .

    Also this:

    Editorial Reviews
    From Publishers Weekly
    Barlas, associate professor and chair of politics at Ithaca College, offers a comprehensive revisionist treatment of how the Qur’an actually views women as equal and even superior to men. Persuaded that Islam is a religion of egalitarianism, Barlas is equally clear that misogyny and patriarchy have seeped into Islamic practice through “traditions”: the sunna, or the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad, the founder of Islam; the hadiths, or sayings attributed to Muhammad; and the shariah, or law derived from the Qur’an. Barlas argues that a military-scholarly complex manipulated the Qur’an to establish these traditions in a successful effort to preserve the position of the military rulers and clerics of early Islamic history with women’s status being the victim. Some flawed traditions, along with mistranslations, ingrained patriarchy into Qur’anic interpretation, in spite of obvious Qur’anic injunctions to the contrary. Barlas’s thesis is irresistible: the Qur’an itself has a very positive view of women whereas patriarchal culture caused the various interpreters of the Qur’an to read their own biases into the text to justify the oppression of women. Barlas quotes from a smorgasbord of Islamic scholars, resulting at times in a choppy read that drowns out her own more appealing voice. The opening chapter is bogged down in such quoting, and also in excessive worrying over her critics on either side of the debate. Despite these flaws, this book is loaded with interesting facts about Islam that may even surprise Muslims.
    Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc.

    From Library Journal
    Interim director of the Center for the Study of Culture, Race, and Ethnicity at Ithaca College, Barlas analyzes both the Qur’anic text itself and its relationship to other Muslim texts and to cultural context. She argues that the language of the Qur’an, with its emphasis on divine unity, justness, and incomparability, rejects “the patriarchal imagery of God-the-Father and the prophets-as-fathers” and in fact counters “the history of rule by fathers.” She further argues that the Qur’an refuses to espouse a view of sex/gender differentiation, recognizing equal spousal rights for both sexes and mutuality in marital relations. The Qur’an even links “the reverence humans owe to God and the reverence they owe to their others” and “is the only Scripture to address the rights of girls” to paternal love and “the problem of fathers’ abuse of daughters.” Prevalent Qur’anic misreadings, she concludes, can be traced to the sunna (or traditions), the hadiths (or sayings) of the Prophet, and the shariah (or law), which were developed by an early military-scholarly complex. This challenging book complements Amina Wadud’s Qur’an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman’s Perspective; both are important for academic and larger public libraries. Carolyn M. Craft, Longwood Univ., Farmville, VA
    Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.

    And this:

    Editorial Reviews
    Review
    “Excellent study. Important for cross-cultural women’s studies.”–Sr.Martha Ann Kirk, University of the Incarnate Word

    Product Description
    Fourteen centuries of Islamic thought have produced a legacy of interpretive readings of the Qu’ran written almost entirely by men. Now, with Qu’ran and Woman, Amina Wadud provides a first interpretive reading by a woman, a reading which validates the female voice in the Qu’ran and brings it out of the shadows. Muslim progressives have long argued that it is not the religion but patriarchal interpretation and implementation of the Qu’ran that have kept women oppressed. For many, the way to reform is the reexamination and reinterpretation of religious texts. Qu’ran and Woman contributes a gender inclusive reading to one of the most fundamental disciplines in Islamic thought, Qu’ranic exegesis. Wadud breaks down specific texts and key words which have been used to limit women’s public and private role, even to justify violence toward Muslim women, revealing that their original meaning and context defy such interpretations.

    What her analysis clarifies is the lack of gender bias, precedence, or prejudice in the essential language of the Qur’an. Despite much Qu’ranic evidence about the significance of women, gender reform in Muslim society has been stubbornly resisted. Wadud’s reading of the Qu’ran confirms women’s equality and constitutes legitimate grounds for contesting the unequal treatment that women have experienced historically and continue to experience legally in Muslim communities. The Qu’ran does not prescribe one timeless and unchanging social structure for men and women, Wadud argues lucidly, affirming that the Qu’ran holds greater possibilities for guiding human society to a more fulfilling and productive mutual collaboration between men and women than as yet attained by Muslims or non-Muslims.

  15. Cukurungan says:

    I can see the same in Iran, with my Bahai & Zoroastrian acquaintances-these groups were far more egalitarian, as were the Iranian apostates from Islam. The non practicing Muslims were next.

    But the fact history spoke by itself that Zoroastrian was only able to produce a Corrupt Iranian Kingdom (I never said that Iranian Kingdom is a backward country) that easily knocked down by a few Bedouin fighters.

  16. Fawzia says:

    Hi shuhei,

    I went to check out the links provided by draymusa.

    There are books sold by Amazon on women and Islam.

    This is the excerpt that I got from one of Mernissi’s books.

    You like to use her so much as an example of how discriminative Islam is, yet from the excerpt alone (below) we see that she doesn’t think so at all.

    Do you have a problem reading Mernissi’s actual words? That you need to read reviews of her works? 🙂

    You didn’t get a single excerpt, you got loads of reviews of her works!

    Re read what you got.

    Its the opinion of the publishers on Merniss’s works. I too can twist what you wrote here or elsewhere, without making any “excerpt” of your posts, & claim that you said something completely different.

    So why don’t you check out Mernissi’s work itself?

    These are her words, not mine! 😉

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=fatima+mernissi+hadramaut&source=bl&ots=peLfFvvwic&sig=iM7d8wlUKt5bywInkwoJl–6iwI&hl=en&ei=q2A6Ss7RDdCMkAX1i-iYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

    I haven’t quoted publishers’ reviews of her works & claimed they’re excerpts, I have quoted her actual works.Read what she thinks, in her own words.

    You can read what she has to say about the situation of women pre & post Islam, in her own words, not in any publishers’ words! 😉

    She speaks about how women claimed they were happier before Islam, how Arabia had many tribes with matrilineal customs & powerful women, how many women like Khadija, Sajah, Salma were imensely powerful before Islam, in her own words, not in any publishers’ opinions.

    Let me give you an “excerpt” not a review! 🙂

    A disturbing incident following the death of Muhammad forever linked woman and song with blasphemous behavior. Not all tribes willingly clung to the new religion; some turned apostate. Perhaps thinking Muhammad’s demise signaled a return to their former spiritual traditions, six women in the city of Hadramaut celebrated news of the Prophet’s death. They marked the occasion by staining their hands with henna — a practice associated with festivities — and playing on the “tambourine.” Two converts to Islam reported the women to Muhammad’s successor, Caliph Abu Bakr, who gave orders for a gruesome punishment.

    The two righteous servants [of God] who remained
    steadfast in their religion when the greater part of their
    tribes apostasized…have written to me that before them
    there are certain women of the people of Yemen who
    have desired the death of the Prophet of God, and that
    these have been joined by singing-girls of Kinda and
    prostitutes of Hadramaut, and they have dyed their hands
    and shown joy and played on the tambourine in defiance
    of God and in contempt of his rights and those of His
    Prophet. When my letter reaches you, go to them with
    your horses and men, and strike off their hands.

    Who were these women, dismissed as harlots and prostitutes? Muslim historian Ibn Al Bagdadi identified the twelve of them in his work Kitab al-Muhabbar: “Two were grandmothers, one a mother, and seven were young girls. Three of the twelve belonged to the ashraf (“the noble class”) and four to the tribe of Kindah, a royal tribe which provided Yemen with its kings.”

    What kind of harlotry is practiced by elderly grandmothers,
    young girls, by the most noble of women, the members of
    princely houses? And why, anyway, was the clapping of
    tambourines by twenty-six women in the faraway villages
    of South Arabia so threatening to the powerful military
    Muslim order?

    One historian, A.F. L. Beetson, believes the incident reveals a conflict between the old pagan religion and the new monotheism. “He speculates that these women dissidents were deprived by the new religion of their position as pagan priestesses of the old temple where religious prostitution was practiced.”

    See? These are Mernissi’s words, as soon as Muhammad died, women in Hadramaut started celebrating his death with music & dancing, women who were delighted that Muhammad was dead, they were brutally murdered by Abu Bakr & the Caliphs.

    Would you celebrate the death of someone you regard as any “liberator”? I would only celerate the death of an oppressor & I would fight any oppressor, like these women, the Prophetess Sajah, Salma etc did.

    And isn’t it wrong to kill some people brutally like these people were killed, simply coz they disliked Muhammad & his religion, & were happy that he was dead, feeling now they could get rid of his religion? They didn’t attack Muslims, Muslims attacked them.

    Please read from her work about other such rebels like Sajah, who started her own religion & Salma, who also rebelled & was brutally killed by Muslims.

  17. Fawzia says:

    But the fact history spoke by itself that Zoroastrian was only able to produce a Corrupt Iranian Kingdom (I never said that Iranian Kingdom is a backward country) that easily knocked down by a few Bedouin fighters.

    Its not too difficult for any barbarian horde to knock down settled, civilized folks-the Mongols some centuries later knocked down Muslim kingdoms!

    Besides, its really difficult for people to suddenly deal with the attacks of barbarian hordes motivated with some religious frenzy, other settled, happy, civilized places don’t even realize what those religious barbarians are upto! 🙂

    Muslims fighters were from a poverty stricken nation, they had little in life there apart from their religious beliefs, & those beliefs promised them a Heaven peopled with houris if they died in battle! 😉

    Iranians, in a properous land, natually loved their good life, had little cause to throw it away & it was difficult to understand the jihadis’ mentality at all.

    Exactly like the 9\11 pilots managing to kill 3000 people & knock down huge buildings, other people who aren’t so wildly motivated by such religious frenzy don’t realise what is happening.

    This is what happened in case of all the populations of Iran, Iraq, Egypt etc.

    I agree with you that Iranians of the day should have put up a stronger resistance & tried to get their country back. Thats’ why I really admire how resilient Europeans were, how they finally managed to kick out the Muslims from their part of the world.

    I don’t really support barbarism or attacks on anyone, but if you go around conquering other people’s nations like the Muslims did, instituting jizya taxes & making them dhimmis, you can’t really blame anyone for kicking you out! 😉

  18. shuhei says:

    @Fawzia,

    Do you have a problem reading Mernissi’s actual words? That you need to read reviews of her works?

    You didn’t get a single excerpt, you got loads of reviews of her works!

    Re read what you got.

    Its the opinion of the publishers on Merniss’s works. I too can twist what you wrote here or elsewhere, without making any “excerpt” of your posts, & claim that you said something completely different.

    So why don’t you check out Mernissi’s work itself?

    I admitted using the wrong word of “review” with excerpt. What I meant was of course review, it was clearly stated there.

    I can’t read the books myself as I don’t have them. I have to buy them first right, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand the English.

    The link you gave only gives us a limited number of pages, starting from page 39 until page 72, randomly selected pages totaling only 20 from the whole 165 pages.

    So how do you expct us to draw conclusion from just this much (little)?

    I hope you don’t have this habit of reading a little bit and then jump to hasty big conclusions.

    Fatima Mernissi is only one person, one expert. What she knows is limited. You don’t think she knows everythig right?

    Also, nothing guarantees the authenticity of the so called “written (her)story” in Mernissi’s book or any history record whatsoever for that matter.

    What is written as history are mostly speculations and interpretations of people living today of events taking place hundreds of years ago.

    Also I doubt that Publisher Weekly, LibraryJournal or any editors would twist or distort their own review of the books try to pomote themselves. Why would they?

    As I said the link you gave us doesn’t give the complete content of the book. It might turn out that the whole book carry out a completely different message from the preview pages.

    I am a regular buyer with Amazon, and I often buy books because of the reviews I read about the products. I have yet to encounter reviews which are misleading, as you’ve accused of the publishers as doing.

    Its the opinion of the publishers on Merniss’s works.

    I dont understand this accusation of yours. Why would publishers say something which is a complete contradiction with the content of the books they’re publishing? Why would they make a fool of themselves and ruin their own reputation?

    Or you just like making wild accusations?

    Like the accusation you leash out on draymusa below:

    as you now give me so many links, trying to prove your extensive knowledge

    or on Indonesian old men below:

    Indonesian old men are now marrying little girls.

    without bothering to check the statistics first.

    Many of what you said are wild accusations or questionable generalization.

    exept probably this one below:

    I too can twist what you wrote here or elsewhere, without making any “excerpt” of your posts, & claim that you said something completely different.

    Yes, I believe you can, and you probably will, due to your agenda of proving yourself right at all cost … he.he..he..

    But bookstore such as Amazon or any editors twisting their own review ??? Nah… Nope. I don’t believe so…

    You know what, if you really want to convince me, you can you lend me your copy of the books you keep referring. If I can read the whole book, I might get a better picture of things.

  19. draymusa says:

    >>I assure you, I have read all her works, I find them enjoyable & enlightening. I have found nothing which explained away Islam’s misogyny to me.<>I fail to see how women whom Mernissi & Ahmed mention-like Khadija, Prophetess Sajah, ridda rebel Salma, Hadramaut women etc-can vanish with Islam from these regions, without any misogyny on the part of Islam-the change which happened there.<>Both Leila Ahmed & Mernissi mention how Islam consolidated the trend away from matrilineal customs to patriarchal, patrilineal ones. <>I have read Leila Ahmed’s works as well, I respect her scholarship. She too says what saw mentioned in Fatima Mernissi’s book, that many women even in Arabia were better off before Islam.<>It is quite clear from both Fatima Mernissi & Leila Ahmed’s work that there were plenty of pre Islamic women with tremendous rights-<>Faith is a very easy thing to increase & hold onto, & an extremely difficult thing to abandon. I read all that I could in an attempt to save my sinking faith, before I realised I couldn’t call myself Muslim.<>Have you read these works? These are apostate women.

    Parvin Darabi’s Rage Against the Veil

    http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Against-Veil-Courageous-Dissident/dp/1573926825

    A book about Wafa Sultan

    http://www.amazon.com/Wonderwoman-Wafa-Sultan-American-Enterprise/dp/B000M8NH6Y

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    http://www.amazon.com/Infidel-Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali/dp/0743289684

    Nonie Darwaish

    http://www.amazon.com/Now-They-Call-Infidel-Renounced/dp/1595230319&lt;>Yawn, been there done that. <>As I said, faith is the hardest thing to let go.<>Both Leila Ahmed & Fatima Mernissi show many extremely powerful, successful women in the regions of what is today Saudi & Yemen pre Islam, how in many ways their rights deteriorated, how many of these women were happier pre Islam etc. <>You have ecome clearly acquainted with Mernissi & Leila Ahmed, what do you think of all those successful pre Islamic women, those customs in many tribes which gave women so many rights-to become rebels, Prophetesses, businesswomen like Khadija-all of which are impossible in Saudi & Yemen today?<>Also, what do you think Islam contributed in the area of women’s rights in Indonesia\Malaysia? <>Quran may reduce equal inheritance to half inheritance, indeed many devout Muslims are giving their female offsprings half inheritance, but what improvement?<>http://www.indonesiamatters.com/181/support-for-sharia-islamic-radicalism/

    Female children should only receive half the share of male children in inheritance.
    Women – 54%.
    Men – 54%.<>In country after country, Islam is retarding progress & women’s rights, sometimes its downright regressive. It did away with the Khadijas & Sajahs of Saudi from its inception, a point which both Mernissi & Ahmed concur. <>Worst were all the Muslims who happened to take Islam seriously.<<

    Only those, such as yourself, who insist that Islam must be the way they define it, rather than what the Quran, the traditions, or history may show. You are a champion of their definitions, and your faith in those prevents you from being honest about history, or the Quran, or even the authors you cite.

  20. draymusa says:

    You set the quote this way:

    >>Qur’an (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers.<<

    You do not clearly distinguish between your word and the words of the text. The use of double quotation marks in an offset quote such as you have done indicate a quote within a quote. It is upto you to clearly separate your own words from those of the verse you claim to cite, but you did not. Now, you are showing it was carelessness rather than dishonesty on your part. Fair enough. But carelessness is equally as misleading as dishonesty, and you still dishonestly omitted Q 4:75 from your discussion.

    I undertand that honesty is a challenge to your faith, but at the same time, you realize how hard it is to move away from your faith. This is a hopeful sign. Perhaps in time, you can challenge the faith you so strongly have in your beliefs, at least within yourself.

    Dare to be honest about the depth and breadth of Muslim history, and what the Quran, and the authors you have cited actually say. Dare to realize that what you have accepted on faith about Islam may not be true at all. If you can do that, you can abandoned your fallacies and discuss these subjects honestly.

  21. diego says:

    Anyone is keeping the score here? Who wins? Looks like it’s Fawzia….

  22. draymusa says:

    I apologize. Somehow, my previous response is messed up.

    >>I assure you, I have read all her works, I find them enjoyable & enlightening. I have found nothing which explained away Islam’s misogyny to me. Instead, she gives plenty of examples of extremely powerful & successful women in pre Islamic Arabia, I don’t find such women in Saudi or Yemen, the first two converts to Islam.

    I fail to see how women whom Mernissi & Ahmed mention-like Khadija, Prophetess Sajah, ridda rebel Salma, Hadramaut women etc-can vanish with Islam from these regions, without any misogyny on the part of Islam-the change which happened there.<>Both Leila Ahmed & Mernissi mention how Islam consolidated the trend away from matrilineal customs to patriarchal, patrilineal ones. <>I have read Leila Ahmed’s works as well, I respect her scholarship. She too says what saw mentioned in Fatima Mernissi’s book, that many women even in Arabia were better off before Islam.<>It is quite clear from both Fatima Mernissi & Leila Ahmed’s work that there were plenty of pre Islamic women with tremendous rights<>I have read Asma Barlas as well.<>Faith is a very easy thing to increase & hold onto, & an extremely difficult thing to abandon. I read all that I could in an attempt to save my sinking faith, before I realised I couldn’t call myself Muslim.

    Yet for every convert or Muslimah writer, there is an apostate(even though it is legally impossible for many Muslims to leave Islam).<>Have you read these works? These are apostate women.<<

    Yes, I have. Like you, their faith in the accuracy of what they believe is so strong that they must rely on logical fallacies and distort both history and texts in order to uphold that faith. Like you, they must sacrifice honesty on the altar of their faith. And like you, they are committed champions of the ugly and distorted view of Islam that their faith requires.

    I dare you to entertain doubt in your faith. Islam may not be what your faith insists it is.

  23. Fawzia says:

    @shuhei,

    I admitted using the wrong word of “review” with excerpt. What I meant was of course review, it was clearly stated there.

    I can’t read the books myself as I don’t have them. I have to buy them first right, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand the English.

    What is clearly stated is someone else’s words, not her own. If you want information on what she has written, why not read her own words? Buy the books then, I think & hope you can afford them.

    The link you gave only gives us a limited number of pages, starting from page 39 until page 72, randomly selected pages totaling only 20 from the whole 165 pages.

    So how do you expct us to draw conclusion from just this much (little)?

    Yes, it does have a selective number of pages, but those are her writings.They’re not someone else’s words. I can’t give you a book on the internet, I could of course buy it for you & send it to you if you want it. 🙂

    Funny you’re willing to draw conclusions from someone else(ie the publishers’ words)but not her own words.

    At least her own words, even if its a relatively small portion, are as good a mirror to her thoughts, without any intermediary.

    If I want to know the Quran, I will read it, not read any Muslims’ opinions first, coz Muslims, other religions’ followers & ex Muslims will have their own opinions, so its best to go to the root of the issue.

    I hope you don’t have this habit of reading a little bit and then jump to hasty big conclusions.

    Dear shuhei, have you read my previous posts? I have read the whole books written by Mernissi, Leila Ahmed etc.

    At least I don’t jump to conclusions based on the reviews.

    Fatima Mernissi is only one person, one expert. What she knows is limited. You don’t think she knows everythig right?

    Not at all, I know her knowledge is limited, all our knowledge is limited. There are many experts on Islam, who have come up with many views. I gave you a link to her book simply because she is a “feminist” Muslim scholar.

    There have been apostates like Ibn Warraq who have written some excellent stuff as well, they have quit Islam, you can check out their views on many issues as well.

    Why I am not a Muslim

    http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Muslim/dp/0879759844

    Leaving Islam, Apoastates Speak out
    http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Islam-Apostates-Speak-Out/dp/1591020689

    What the Quran really says
    http://www.amazon.com/What-Koran-Really-Says-Commentary/dp/157392945X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/190-8365674-9965649

    Also, nothing guarantees the authenticity of the so called “written (her)story” in Mernissi’s book or any history record whatsoever for that matter.

    Nothing guarantees the authenticity of any history, except what is recorded by many historians, obviously we can’t travel back in time machines. Mernissi quotes extensively from the Quran, hadiths & works of eminent historians to prove her point.

    Obviously we can shut our eyes to all history which we dislike, this happens in my country Iran, when our President Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust, despite the overwhelming evidence that it took place. 😉

    Also I doubt that Publisher Weekly, LibraryJournal or any editors would twist or distort their own review of the books try to pomote themselves. Why would they?

    As I said the link you gave us doesn’t give the complete content of the book. It might turn out that the whole book carry out a completely different message from the preview pages.

    I am a regular buyer with Amazon, and I often buy books because of the reviews I read about the products. I have yet to encounter reviews which are misleading, as you’ve accused of the publishers as doing.

    Yawn shuhei! Instead of wasting so much of your energies typing, please go ahead & purchase the book from Amazon then, if you are a regular buyer. Its not exorbidantly highly priced, you know. 😉

    I dont understand this accusation of yours. Why would publishers say something which is a complete contradiction with the content of the books they’re publishing? Why would they make a fool of themselves and ruin their own reputation?

    Or you just like making wild accusations?

    I repeat, buy the book.

    Like the accusation you leash out on draymusa below:

    as you now give me so many links, trying to prove your extensive knowledge

    Whats’o offensive about this accusation? So many links that she(?) sent me show that she has read so many books.

    She said:

    Your ignorance

    And then proceeded to give me multiple links, to books she has read & wants her students to read.

    Ostensibly, she called me ignorant, assuming I hadn’t read those works(which I had) & showed all the stuff she had read.

    or on Indonesian old men below:

    Did I say “all Indonesian men”? I gave you links to such a despicable man, who is not just doing such stuff, but also justifying himself based on Islam.

    without bothering to check the statistics first.

    Why do I need to check statistics pray? Did I give a % of men? 😉

    I think even one man is too many, obviously there will always be pedophiles everywhere, but I think its a sordid thing if a pedo can justify himself based on Islam, like the old man I gave a link to is justifying his conduct based on Islam.

    Many of what you said are wild accusations or questionable generalization.

    Really? I gave a link to practically everything I said.

    In case I said something without giving links, the facts are too obvious to need links.

    I say Aceh, the first region stricken with Islam, now has compulsory dress codes, lashings & is debating stonings. Fact.

    I say many Islamic nations lack religious tolerant laws. Fact. Apostasy has the death penalty in Iran, many other nations Fact.

    Yes, I believe you can, and you probably will, due to your agenda of proving yourself right at all cost … he.he..he..

    And I believe you will continue to shut your eyes to all that is violent & misogynistic in the Quran & hadiths, reject hadiths, not look at the words of the Quran-to salvage your faith at all costs!

    he…he…he. 🙂

    But bookstore such as Amazon or any editors twisting their own review ??? Nah… Nope. I don’t believe so…

    Has Amazon banned you from purchasing their books? I wonder…;-)

    Go ahead & buy!

    You don’t need to believe, purchase these books & read! 🙂

    You know what, if you really want to convince me, you can you lend me your copy of the books you keep referring. If I can read the whole book, I might get a better picture of things.

    I can, will I get them back for sure?Forgive me, I don’t intend to sound rude at all, its just that, I don’t know you apart from the net, I would not like to lend something to someone which might be lost. Most people feel the same way about lending stuff to anyone unknown person simply based on online interaction. I will lend if you want me to, although I prefer that you buy them yourself, the books don’t take long to arrive if you order them from Amazon, they’d probably take the same time that I would take. They’re also in stock.

    I can send you the book, post it for you. I keep referring to Mernissi, to Ibn Warraq etc, I’d also miss them if they’re gone for a long time, & I’d have to buy them again if they’re lost.

    Anyway, these books are out there with Amazon & many other online sellers, you can easily get them.

  24. Fawzia says:

    @draymusa,

    I apologize. Somehow, my previous response is messed up.

    It is indeed, somewhat difficult to spot where you quote what I write & where your own views begin.

    Anyway, let me try.

    Only those, such as yourself, who insist that Islam must be the way they define it, rather than what the Quran, the traditions, or history may show. You are a champion of their definitions, and your faith in those prevents you from being honest about history, or the Quran, or even the authors you cite.

    I try my utmost to be honest, as I think you do too. We all have our own opinions on events.

    As for defining Islam on the basis of the Quran, history & traditions, what do you think so many authors from Ibn Warraq to many others do?

    There is enough violence, misogyny & intolerance in the Quran, Islamic other traditions & Islam’s history.

    I can write pages simply posting all the violence & sexism in Islamic holy texts & history.

    Are you very honest draymusa? Then please take a long, hard look yourself at all the violence & misogyny in Islamic holy scriptures & history.

    Now, you are showing it was carelessness rather than dishonesty on your part. Fair enough. But carelessness is equally as misleading as dishonesty, and you still dishonestly omitted Q 4:75 from your discussion.

    It was neither dishonesty nor carelessness. I used quotation marks, & its obcvious from the words that the next bit isn’t a quote.

    If I say “Here is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers” this clearly isn’t a verse but an opinion.

    And why should I have to quote 4:75 if I quote one verse? That doesn’t say don’t fight, it says fight to end persecution. What is “persecution”? Mnay Muslims feel persecuted in many Islamic nations if they can’t have Shariah law & charge jizya taxes from non Muslims, or if they see women not wearing hijab.

    All the next verse says is also to fight, whenever one feels one is “persecuted”. No wonder Muslims in so many parts of our world, even if they have full religious freedom, feel the need for riots & terrorist attacks.

    I undertand that honesty is a challenge to your faith, but at the same time, you realize how hard it is to move away from your faith. This is a hopeful sign. Perhaps in time, you can challenge the faith you so strongly have in your beliefs, at least within yourself.

    I can say exactly the same for you, I asked you where women like Khadija & Sajah disappeared with Islam, why Christian converts like Waraqa are now killed for apostasy in Saudi & Yemen, & what rights did Islam give to Javanese & Minangkabau women, you make no attempt to answer.

    I can only hope you seriously re examine your religion as well, to see what your religion did in all these cases.

    I took time to move away from Islam, coz I wanted & sought all the answers, whereas you carefully avoid all the questions to stay secure in your faith! 😉

    Dare to be honest about the depth and breadth of Muslim history, and what the Quran, and the authors you have cited actually say. Dare to realize that what you have accepted on faith about Islam may not be true at all. If you can do that, you can abandoned your fallacies and discuss these subjects honestly.

    I dare you to do the same. Dare you to realise why a woman like Khadija should be punished & humiliated by Quran 4:34, rather than she punishing her husband if he is wrong-as she was the economic provider & older in years & experience . I dare you to find why Khadija, such a talented woman, should receive half her brothers inheritance after Islam, whereas much of her initial wealth was inherited pre Islam. I ask you why a woman like Khadija, who could manage such a brilliant business pre Islam, should now find that her witness in financial matters is half a man’s (Quran 2:282).

    I dare you to realise why forget Prophetesses like Sajah, women in Saudi can’t dream of leading mixed gender prayers. Please seek why after Ridda rebels like Salma fighting wars, Saudi women can’t drive cars. Why Hadramaut, where women celebrated Muhammad’s death, is now infamous as the birthplace as Islamic bigot Osama bin Laden.

    Why in Saudi, where Kaab ibn al Ashraf’s Jewish mother could marry his pagan father & he could be brought up Jewish, now Muslim men can marry Christian & Jewish women, but children have to be Muslim.

    How did that region’s culture change for the worse in so many ways with Islam?

    If you can do this, you can abandon your fallacies as well & attempt to answer honestly as well.

    Yes, I have. Like you, their faith in the accuracy of what they believe is so strong that they must rely on logical fallacies and distort both history and texts in order to uphold that faith. Like you, they must sacrifice honesty on the altar of their faith. And like you, they are committed champions of the ugly and distorted view of Islam that their faith requires.

    I dare you to entertain doubt in your faith. Islam may not be what your faith insists it is

    ]

    Much of what they do is simply quote the words of texts & eminent historians to prove their points, sometimes even Islamic historians. Even Islamic history shows that Waraqa ibn Nawfal could freely convert to Christianity without persecution in what is unthinkable in Saudi today.

    Also, in case of women, they quote only the authentic words of the Quran & other texts to prove their points.

    There is no reason to think that converts to Islam are any more honest that any apostates from Islam.

    There is nothing ugly & distorted in writing plain Islamic texts, that can only become “ugly” if the texts themselves are ugly. 🙂

    .

  25. draymusa says:

    As for defining Islam on the basis of the Quran, history & traditions, what do you think so many authors from Ibn Warraq to many others do?

    They do as you do. They quote only selectively out of context, or outright misquote, drawing overly simplistic conclusions based on logical fallacies.

    I dare you to realise why forget Prophetesses like Sajah, women in Saudi can’t dream of leading mixed gender prayers.

    Many women, including myself, have led mixed gender prayers. We know from the Hadith that the Prophet’s companion Umm Waraqa led mixed gender prayers in her home. That is one of the many things that you and Ibn Warraq will never tell your readers because it challenges your faith.

    Dare you to realise why a woman like Khadija should be punished & humiliated by Quran 4:34,

    Please tell us when Muhammad feared that Khadijah was having sex with others during his absence because, when we read 4:34 literally and in the context of the entire Quran, that is what the verse is about. It is not about any other type of dispute. The verse is telling men what they may do when they fear their wives are sexually unfaithful, and that is limited and does not allow “beating” at all.

    I have read the whole books written by Mernissi, Leila Ahmed etc.

    Then you know that Mernissi says the following:

    The evidence is there in the works of religious history, in the biographical details of sahabiyat by the thousand who built Muslim society side by side with their male counterparts.

    [Mernissi The Veil and the Male Elite viii]

    When I finished writing this book, I had come to understand one thing: if women’s rights are a problem for some modern Muslim men, it is neither because of the Koran nor the Prophet, nor the Islamic tradition, but simply because those rights conflict with the interests of a male elite.

    [Ibid ix]

    As we can see, your claims about Mernissi’s work and the actual words of Mernissi are worlds apart. She does not claim, as you do, that the misogyny is on the part of Islam. That is your claim, and as her work and the work of others clearly demonstrates, your claim is false and misleading.

    More from Fatima Mernissi’s The Veil and the Male Elite

    Women fled aristocratic tribal Mecca by the thousands to enter Medina, the Prophet’s city in the seventh century, because Islam promised equality and dignity for all, for men and women, masters and servants. Every woman who came to Medina when the Prophet was the political leader of Muslims could gain access to full citizenship, the status of sahabi, Companion of the Prophet. Muslims can take pride that in their language they have the feminine of that word, sahabiyat, women who enjoyed the right to enter into the councils of the Muslim umma, to speak freely to its Prophet-leader, to dispute with the men, to fight for their happiness, and to be involved in the management of military and political affairs

    (Mernissi viii)

    aristocratic young women and slaves alike were drawn to a new, mysterious religion, feared by the masters of Mecca because its prophet spoke of matters dangerous to the establishment, of human dignity and equal rights. The religion was Islam and the prophet was Muhammad.

    (ibid viii-ix)

  26. shuhei says:

    Hi Fawzia and All,

    The links given by Fawzia was for a book by Mernissi called “Beyond the Veil: Male-Female Dynamics in Modern Muslim Society (randomly selected pages).

    The link provided by Draymusa is for another book by the same author titled “The Veil and the Male Elite: a Feminist Interpretation”, this book is available on Amazon.

    So I went there again to read some free chapters and search inside the book.
    These are some of the passages I found, written in Mernissi’s own words, of course.

    “What a strange fate for Muslim memory, to be called upon in order to censure and punish! What a strange memory, where even dead men and women do not escape attempts at assassination …”

    It is, according to Mernissi, Muslims’ own invention or mis-interpretation that then led to tradition that is responsible for their own wrongdoings, not the Qur’an.

    How did the tradition succeed in transforming the MUSLIM women into that submissive, marginal creatures … the downward slide as far as women are concerned took place under the Abbasid dynasty…

    Again, Mernissi suggests here that women’s oppression was NOT originated from Islam itself (The Quran), nor from the era of the Prophet Muhammad. It happened later due to all sorts of corruption and tradition (in the forms of hadits and the likes) and also politics.

    Then, she was also saying that we must take in to account the context when reading what is in the Qur’an so that we can truly understand what it is saying:

    The chronological order of the revelations is also extremely important in determining the nasikh and the mansukh in cases where there are two contradictory verses concerning the same fact, i.e. the correct attitude towards the Non Muslims, like the Jews or the Christians …

    Here, she agrees with almost all intelligent Muslims about how to properly interpret the Qur’an by taking into account its context, something that Fawzia has obstinately refused to do.

    Lastly (in my example), she also stated that women were free during Muhammad’s era, so contrary to what Fawzia is saying.

    “This critical spirit on the part of women toward the political leader (including the Prophet himself) remained alive and well during the first decades of Islam. It only disappeared with the onset of absolutism, with Mu’awiya and the turning of Islam into a dynastic system …”

    See, very clearly here Mernissi herself wrote that the real Islam as practiced by Muhammad did not oppres women. The example she uses was when the prophet took an oath of allegiance and the women keep protesting, without fear or retribution. They were not afraid of voicing their objection to him, nor did he then kill them for that.

    So, it is either Mernissi wrote two completely contradictory books or it is Fawzia’s understanding of her books that is very biased and distorted by her hatred towards Islam.

    I’ll let other readers be the judge.

    If you wish to, you can go to Amazon and read what’s inside the books yourself.

    Still, to be careful, you have to read the whole books, if you wish to, but at least Amazon lets you take a glimpse of what is inside.

    Here’s all the links again

    Fatima Mernissi. The Veil and the Male Elite
    http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254710099&sr=8-5

    Leila Ahmed’s Women and Gender in Islam.
    http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254710099&sr=8-5

    Mina Wadud’s Quran and Woman.
    http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Male-Elite-Feminist-Interpretation/dp/0201632217/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254710099&sr=8-5

    Asma Barlas’ Belieiving Women.
    http://www.amazon.com/Believing-Women-Islam-Patriarchal-Interpretations/dp/0292709048/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254708475&sr=1-1

    Anyway, what you believe is what you believe. No one can really make you believe something you don’t. To each, their own path.
    If you keep looking, there are all sorts of things out there. It is our own judgment then that matters.

    Peace.

  27. Fawzia says:

    They do as you do. They quote only selectively out of context, or outright misquote, drawing overly simplistic conclusions based on logical fallacies.

    Everyone quotes selectively, both Islamophile women & apostate women. Pro Islam Muslim women or women converts quote the bits they want to quote, they cherry pick verses promising li’l bits of equality, however, then you feel they’re being completely honest, even though they’re camouflaging less appealing verses. But when apostate women or critical women quote bits where women are supposed to be oppressed & beaten, or verses urging religious violence & strife, it suddenly becomes out of context, misquote or logical fallacy? 🙂

    Many women, including myself, have led mixed gender prayers. We know from the Hadith that the Prophet’s companion Umm Waraqa led mixed gender prayers in her home. That is one of the many things that you and Ibn Warraq will never tell your readers because it challenges your faith.

    Did you give me Umm Waraqa’s example thinking I am some ignoramus? Umm Waraqa led the prayers of her household, she was with men she was allowed to freely interact with. Its not non related men she could lead in prayer.

    I or Ibn Warraq don’t mean in the confines of our household & with menfolk we are allowed to interact with, we mean with men in the wider world!

    Khadija didn’t have a business only with men in her household & employ only her related men to work for her, she had business dealings with all sorts of non related men.

    Sajah didn’t become a Prophetess over men of the household, she became a Prophetess over her tribes & hoped to spread her faith over all Arabia.

    Oh & delightful that you chose to discuss hadiths! 😉

    Since we learn about Umm Waraqa from hadiths, let me quote some other delightful hadiths for your(& others) ears!

    Sahih Hadiths, Women are deficient in intelligence & their witness is half a man’s(Quranists, half a men’s witness is also there in the Quran) 🙂

    Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826
    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said, “Yes.” He said, “This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.”

    Women are deficient in intelligence & reason, half a man’s witness & finally a Majority in Hell: 🙂

    Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301
    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o ‘Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

    Woman are an Evil Omen 🙂
    Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. “Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house.”
    Sahih Bukhari 4:52:110

    Narrated Sahl bin Sad Saidi: “Allah’s Apostle said “If there is any evil omen in anything, then it is in the woman, the horse and the house.”
    Sahih Bukhari 4:52:111

    Muhammad said men may beat their wives without even being asked why! 🙂

    Book 11, Number 2142:
    Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

    This is only an extremely small selection from the misogynistic hadiths bw, there are many, many more which I won’t bore you or others with, however, these provide a good enough insight into Muhammad’s mind.

    Women are deficient in intelligence & religion, half a man’s witness, can be beaten, will be the majority in Hell, is an evil omen etc!

    You can cherry pick hadiths which sound less obnoxious, but if I or Ibn Warraq were to quote these hadiths, we suddenly become “out of context” or “misquoting” or “logically unsound” 😉

    Please tell us when Muhammad feared that Khadijah was having sex with others during his absence because, when we read 4:34 literally and in the context of the entire Quran, that is what the verse is about. It is not about any other type of dispute. The verse is telling men what they may do when they fear their wives are sexually unfaithful, and that is limited and does not allow “beating” at all.

    The verse starts off like this

    4:34: “Men are the maintainers & protectors of women, because Allah has made one to excel the other,& because they spend their money on them…”

    In Muhammad & Khadija’s case, Khadija was the maintainer & provider of her household, Muhammad was married by her when he still worked for her, later it was her earned wealth, which allowed their family to live comfortably, while Muhammad wandered off to caves, met djinns & angels & other such creatures which haunted his feeble mind.

    So Khadija is superior, she is spending her money maintaining her husband. But the verses say how men can discipline their errant wife\wives, not vice versa.

    Why not tell women also what they should do to when they fear that their husband is unfaithful?But the Quran addresses men only & why not? As the verse says, Men are maintainers & protectors, coz Allah made them excel women! 🙂

    Then you know that Mernissi says the following:

    First, as even shuhei realised, I was quoting from another book, not “The Veil…” but “Beyond the Veil…”

    As we can see, your claims about Mernissi’s work and the actual words of Mernissi are worlds apart. She does not claim, as you do, that the misogyny is on the part of Islam. That is your claim, and as her work and the work of others clearly demonstrates, your claim is false and misleading.

    Haven’t you realised by now that I was speaking of another book? Read “Beyond the Veil…” if you haven’t already.

    She gives examples, not simply empty words, about the many tribes following matrilineal customs, how powerful Muhammad’s grandmother was, how women had more mobility with less patrilineal customs, how their sexual practices weren’t limited, how women like those at Hadramaut, Sajah, Salma etc rebelled against Islam, for they saw it as limiting their power.

    Even Leila Ahmed’s account of women & the rise of Islam gives a vivid contrast between the independence enjoyed by Muhammad’s pre Islamic wife Khadija & post Islamic wife little Ayesha-how with Islam Ayesha married young, began to observe veiling & how Khadija had full freedom in pre Islamic society to run her business, employ a man & marry this man many years her junior without any male interfering & curtailing her rights.

    Since you mentioned a hadith(Umm Waraqa leading her household, note, not even a wider non related congregation) I will end with a beautiful sahih hadith for you, straight from little Ayesha, who commented on Muslim women’s suffering! 😉

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
    Narrated ‘Ikrima:
    Rifa’a divorced his wife whereupon ‘AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. ‘Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Apostle came, ‘Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!”

    Even little Ayesha, who saw both believing & non believing women, felt believing ie Muslim women suffer most! 🙂

  28. Fawzia says:

    Hi shuhei,

    The links given by Fawzia was for a book by Mernissi called “Beyond the Veil: Male-Female Dynamics in Modern Muslim Society (randomly selected pages).

    Interesting that you keep accusing me of quoting & mentioning “randomly selected pages” but then quote reviews & randomly selected pages yourself! 🙂

    If you want the book, “Beyond the Veil” why not purchase it from Amazon? Then there’ll be no need of random pages, you can read the whole stuff.

    The link provided by Draymusa is for another book by the same author titled “The Veil and the Male Elite: a Feminist Interpretation”, this book is available on Amazon.

    So I went there again to read some free chapters and search inside the book.
    These are some of the passages I found, written in Mernissi’s own words, of course.

    Not only this book, but the book “Beyong the Veil,” too is available on Amazon. I have a copy, I would have liked to lend it to you, but my resources aren’t very large, & I don’t know you. I wouldn’t like to lose the book, it cost me money.

    Come & visit me in USA, I can give you the address, once I at least see you, I can feel more comfortable lending it.

    It is, according to Mernissi, Muslims’ own invention or mis-interpretation that then led to tradition that is responsible for their own wrongdoings, not the Qur’an.

    Again, buy the book I suggested from Amazon, “Beyong the Veil..” & see if its not Quran’s verses & the system Muhammad started.

    Of course, if you wish to avoid the emotional discomfort of reading unpleasant stuff, so stubbornly refuse to look at the book to avoid any cognitive dissonance, thats’ your call.

    Again, Mernissi suggests here that women’s oppression was NOT originated from Islam itself (The Quran), nor from the era of the Prophet Muhammad. It happened later due to all sorts of corruption and tradition (in the forms of hadits and the likes) and also politics.

    Really? Lets see some verses relating to women in the Quran itself.

    Woman’s testimony in financial matters is worth one-half a man. 2:282

    This means that if your brother gives testimony about a cheque, & you give testimony about the same cheque, your testimony is worth half your brothers’, even if you’re better educated, more honest! 😉

    Never mind that before Islam, Khadija was onr of the richest & most financially capable women in Saudi! 😉

    Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11

    Khadija inherited so much of her vast wealth from her father Khuwaylid, who even had two sons! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuwaylid_ibn_AsadShe was one of the most successful businesswomen in Arabia before Islam. Now she’d be inheriting half her brothers’ amount. In Java, women have traditionally inherited equally with their menfolk. Amongst the Minangkabau, women have traditionally inherited all the land. Now devout Muslims give daughters half, as the Quran suggests! 🙂

    A widow inherits half what a widower inherit 004.012
    In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts

    So again, someone like Muhammad, who was married to rich Khadija, would inherit twice what a woman who was married to a similarly rich man would inherit!

    Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15

    In Islam, even in the Quran, women are to dress modestly, however if she’s “lewd” say she has boyfriends, she is to be given life imprisonment! 😉

    You may not forcibly inherit women, unless they flagrantly lewd. 4:19

    There’s no similar permission from Allah about inheriting “flagrantly lewd men!” 😉

    Instructions for exchanging wives 4:20

    Allah doesn’t give instructions for exchanging husbands! 😉

    “All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”4:24

    Men can have sex with their sex slaves, no such permission given to women to have sex with sex slave men! 😉

    Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34

    No such permission given to women. 😉

    Don’t pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately. 4:43

    Touching a woman is so baaad! However, Allah doesn’t mention touching a man!

    When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. 5:6

    Again, Allah repeats, touching a woman is baad, nothing about a woman touching a man!

    These & many other similar discriminatory verses don’t come from any hadiths, they’re striaght from the Quran!

    It really amuses me that people feel that chucking away hadiths will make Islam a gender equal, non violent faith, plenty of Quranic verses are violent, plenty are misogynistic.

    So I went there again to read some free chapters and search inside the book.
    These are some of the passages I found, written in Mernissi’s own words, of course.

    Very funny that you will read & like these of her words, & quote them, as they support your desire to look at Islam with rose colored glasses. But when it comes to the stuff Mernissi wrote in the book I gave you a link to, you will try to dismiss it as “random passages” as those show women’s objection & rebellion on the coming of Islam! 😉

    Again, Mernissi suggests here that women’s oppression was NOT originated from Islam itself (The Quran), nor from the era of the Prophet Muhammad. It happened later due to all sorts of corruption and tradition (in the forms of hadits and the likes) and also politics.

    Really? It is the Quran giving women half an inheritance, saying that lewd women are to be locked up till death, giving men permission to punish wives by talking, banishing to another bed & later beating\leaving, but not giving women such permission.

    These are from the Quran, not even hadiths.

    Besides, Mernissi was speaking about the women like Sajah, Salma, women in Hadramaut rebelling against Islam, wasn’t she?

    Oh I forgot, you dislike leafing through that book & quoting such bits, because they happen to show Islam in a less than good light! 😉

    So, it is either Mernissi wrote two completely contradictory books or it is Fawzia’s understanding of her books that is very biased and distorted by her hatred towards Islam.

    Or it is that you & draymusa dislike quoting from Beyong the Veil, the many passages where Mernissi show women rebelling towards Islam & even fighting against it, which makes you stick to passages & words which reinforce your beliefs, avoiding passages which challenge it! 😉

    When you say that you are a “customer” of Amazon, are you simply reading bits & pieces from the site?

    Why not purchase Beyond the Veil & see the information there yourself?

    I’ll let other readers be the judge.

    If you wish to, you can go to Amazon and read what’s inside the books yourself.

    Still, to be careful, you have to read the whole books, if you wish to, but at least Amazon lets you take a glimpse of what is inside.

    You avoided giving a link to Beyond the Veil I see… 🙂

    http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Veil-Male-Female-Dynamics-Society/dp/0253204232

    You also avoided giving the link to “Beyong the Veil” that I did, although it lets readers read far more pages than Amazon does! 😉

    However, its dismissed as “few random pages.”

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=fatima+mernissi+hadramaut&source=bl&ots=peLfFvvwic&sig=iM7d8wlUKt5bywInkwoJl–6iwI&hl=en&ei=q2A6Ss7RDdCMkAX1i-iYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

    Anyway, what you believe is what you believe. No one can really make you believe something you don’t. To each, their own path.

    Again, really? Allah happens to disagree with you.

    Forget, being an atheist, Allah will punish all polytheists like Hindus, Shintos, pagans etc, who believe there are more than a single God.

    Here:

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    Thus to Alah, feeling that there’s more than one god is the worst sin, however, Allah may decide to forgive other stuff like rape & mass murder, having many gods is the unpardonable sin! 😉

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    And all people who are idolators are to be fought until they accept Islam:

    9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    If they repent, pray to Allah & pay zakat, only then will they be spared. Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists are all idolators.

    The context of much of the Quran is war, even in the beginning when there’s no war, unbelievers are called the “worst of creatures.”(98.6) 😉

  29. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    One of the oft repeated out of context and plain misleading staements you keep making is the following:

    Woman’s testimony in financial matters is worth one-half a man.

    Let us look at the verse in detail shall we?
    O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be not averse to writing down whether it be small or great, with the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell one to another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things. 2:282

    As you can clearly see this is for a very specific circumstance it is for a legal agreement for a debt to be repaid after a fixed length of time. It is not a general injunction.

    It says “And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth the other will remember”

    It clearly says that one of the women may err, or be incorrect, this is not the same as saying that her testimony is only worth half of the mans. The second woman is simply there as an “aide memoire”.

    Now, why could this be?

    Maybe it is simply that women due to the hormonal changes that take place in their bodies through the course of their lives can be prone to forgetfullness? Not forgetting of course that in an age with no birth control, pregnancy would have been much more common than today.

    Don’t believe this perhaps, or you think it a slur against women? Well read on:

    Study shows pregnancy really does make women forgetful

    or,

    Sex hormone blamed for forgetfulness

    Evil intent against women from Al Quran? I think not. Simply an expedient precaution to prevent misjustice.

    I would have thought that somebody professing to have once been a Muslim, and who stated that she had studied Quran and other sources, would have been able to make a connection like this, It seems to me that your studies were simply to convince yourself to deny God, for reasons know only to you.

  30. Fawzia says:

    Hi Muhammad Khafi,

    Glad to see you back. 🙂

    One of the oft repeated out of context and plain misleading staements you keep making is the following.

    Very interesting is that when you quote some pleasant, benign sounding verses from the Quran to make some point, it doesn’t become “out of context” however, if I quote a less than sweet, egalitarian & peaceful verse, it becomes “out of context” & “plain misleading”! 😉

    As you can clearly see this is for a very specific circumstance it is for a legal agreement for a debt to be repaid after a fixed length of time. It is not a general injunction.

    Correct, when did I say its a general injunction? I said it is a financial injunction. Besides, the sttement doesn’t even mention any amount of debt, so it can be for every paltry debt.

    It says “And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth the other will remember”

    It clearly says that one of the women may err, or be incorrect, this is not the same as saying that her testimony is only worth half of the mans. The second woman is simply there as an “aide memoire”.

    Sorry, I couldn’t help it, I had to laugh out loud at this! It clearly says that if 1 man isn’t there, then two women need to be called, so that if one errs, the other reminds, ie a woman has to be accompanied by a 2nd woman as a prosthetic limb who will help to remind her like a prosthetic limb helps a one legged man walk, yet it doesn’t say that a woman’s testimony is worth half? 🙂

    I say(example), testimony of Khadija is good enough for me, but if Mr Muhammad Khafi gives testimony, I shall need another man with him to remind him whenever he forgets like an additional source, yet your testimony isn’t half Khadija’s? He he he.

    Now, why could this be?

    Maybe it is simply that women due to the hormonal changes that take place in their bodies through the course of their lives can be prone to forgetfullness? Not forgetting of course that in an age with no birth control, pregnancy would have been much more common than today.

    Muhammad or Allah didn’t say that its pregnant or menstruating women, he simply said women. If Allah’s book is as clear as all that, He should’ve made that clear as well.

    Anyway.

    Study shows pregnancy really does make women forgetful

    or,

    Sex hormone blamed for forgetfulness

    Here is another study for you, showing women’s increased abilities during pregnancy.

    http://www.pregnancy-info.net/pregnancy_smarter.html

    I quote from the study:

    How Pregnancy Makes You Smarter: The Study
    A recent study performed at the University of Richmond and Randolph-Macon College in Virginia illustrates that pregnancy brainpower actually doesn’t decline at all during pregnancy. Neuroscientists examined the activities of pregnant mice, rats, and humans and found that all three showed significant increases in mental acuity and memory throughout pregnancy and after giving birth. Specifically, the researchers noticed that the pregnant mice and rats:
    • had more energy
    • were more curious
    • ran mazes more quickly
    • retained detailed information for longer periods of time

    Human subjects in the study also showed increased brainpower. Specifically, the pregnant women showed:
    • increased visual acuity
    • improved sense of smell
    Why The Boost in Brain Power?
    The neuroscientists involved in the pregnancy and memory study found that the hormones released throughout the nine months of pregnancy and during breastfeeding actually contributed directly to this increase in brain power. The hormone oxytocin, which is released in large amounts during pregnancy, appeared to directly affect the structure of the brain, allowing pregnant animals to experience improved brain communication. Brain changes included:• Increased Dendrites: Researchers reported a doubling of the number of dendrites in the pregnant animals in the study. Dendrites are the connections in the brain that allow neurons to communicate with one another. The more dendrites a person has, the better the different areas of the brain can communicate.
    • Increased Glial Cells: Researchers also reported that the pregnant animals had twice the number of glial cells in their brain as non-pregnant animals. Glial cells also play a role in brain communication, acting as signal transmitters for different areas of the brain.
    Is this Improved Memory Permanent?
    One of the most significant findings of this and other pregnancy and memory studies is that the added brainpower caused by pregnancy appears to be permanent. Increased memory retention and improved cognition appear to continue throughout motherhood; in fact, parenting only seems to contribute to a woman’s brain power, allowing her to become:
    • increasingly motivated
    • less fearful
    • more empathetic
    • better able to multitask and prioritize

    So you see, there are plenty of other studies, showing how, contrary to becoming less capable, women become more capable during & after pregnancy. However, its natural thai Islam will not like such studies & cite such studies.

    I have seen similar other statements made by Muslims supporting & citing only those Western studies which prove why men should be breadwinners etc.

    Sooner or later, however egalitarian Muslims, Quranists & other types, claim to be, they lapse into citing & supporting some sexist practices.

    Evil intent against women from Al Quran? I think not. Simply an expedient precaution to prevent misjustice.

    Yep.Evil intent against women. I cited another study, which shows how women’s brains improve during pregnancy. Studies of multiple types are still going on, there’ve been no uniform, conclusive results. The study I cited is also by prestigious professors.

    Like the verses giving daughters’ half the inheritance of sons, or widow’s half the inheirtance of widowers'(I have seen Muslim scholars supporting these as well) this is another evil intent.

    Java’s inheritance has historically been bilateral, daughters have inherited equally, if not more. Minangkabaus have been matrilineal. These places are fine, they’ve come to no harm, yet now many Muslims believe daughters should receive half.

    Khadija’s father Khuwaylid, a father of two other sons, gave vast wealth & inheritance to his daughter Khadija, which she managed well enough, becoming one of the richest in the region. Now of course, Saudi women are in a pathetic situation.

    I would have thought that somebody professing to have once been a Muslim, and who stated that she had studied Quran and other sources, would have been able to make a connection like this, It seems to me that your studies were simply to convince yourself to deny God, for reasons know only to you.

    And I would have thought that anyone trying to restrict himself\herself to the Quran would’ve easily noticed the violence, intolerance & sexism inplenty of verses-would also have been able to realise that even restricting oneself to the Quran wouldn’t make any problems go away.

    It seems to me that your studies too were simply to try to justify bulks of misogyny using only studies which support your hypothesis(ignoring studies which contradict it) & believe that the Quran, whose first part is garbled reproductions of OT verses with descriptions of how unbelievers are the “worst of creatures” & how they’ll burn in Hellfire, & whose last part is simply encouraging Muslims to fight everybody, which has a chapter on women teaching men only how to discipline wives(not bothering to teach women how to discipline husbands) is a “condensed essence of all faiths” 😉

    Besides, there are two points even your studies make, which you failed to mention.

    This was the first study you cited:

    Study shows pregnancy really makes women forgetful

    This study refers repeatedly to the third trimester, not any other time. Even if pregnancy was very common, in the none months of pregnancy, third trimester is simply one third of it!

    So Allah, if He meant to be clear, even according to this study, should’ve said women only in third trimester need an aide of memory! 😉

    The next study is about post menopausal women, & women who’ve had their ovaries removed for some reason! Its not about general reproductive aged women at all.Even the study acknowledges this.

    A Canadian expert has found that women deprived of oestrogen suffer memory lapses that vanish when the hormone is replaced
    Dr Barbara Sherwin, of McGill University in Montreal, says the findings show that oestrogen has a beneficial impact on the parts of the female brain that control thinking.
    Previous studies have suggested that mental ability is linked to oestrogen exposure in the womb.
    There is also some evidence that hormone replacement therapy (HRT) protects the brains of postmenopausal women against degenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s.
    However, little is known about how the hormone shapes the intellect of reproductively active women.
    Dr Sherwin said attempts to monitor changes in cognitive performance throughout the menstrual cycle have proved inconclusive, possibly because oestrogen levels only fluctuate slightly and never fall below a certain threshold.

    Now Dr Sherwin and her colleagues have followed a group of 100 women in their mid-forties, each of whom suffered a sudden drop in circulating levels of oestrogen after their ovaries and uterus had to be surgically removed.

    Ostensibly, in Muhammad’s time, it would be near impossible to have ovaries surgically removed, due to primitive medical sciences. The studies say that women’s brains actually respond positively due to the hormone oestrogen, & in case of post menopausal women only or if the organ’s been surgically removed for some women, does it harm women.

    Life expectancy in Muhammad’s time wasn’t very high, add maternal mortality, old women would be quite a minority. Allah doesn’t mention post menopausal, senile women either, He simply says women! 😉

    So

    In case of your first study, the researchers say that some forgetfullness occurs only in third trimester, which is a short duration, even in days of repeated pregnancy, but Allah doesn’t seem to mention trimesters!

    In case second study, its about post menopausal women, which is again an age not that many women would reach in days of shorter life expectancies, plus Allah doesn’t mention after menopause women either.

    In the study I gave, pregnancy actually improves brainpower! 🙂

    I think not. Simply an expedient precaution to prevent misjustice.

    Sure, even though studies only say old women or third trimester women, & a study says that pregnancy improves beainpower, its an “expedient precaution.”

    So I guess we can ban women from working in banks etc, without employing another to remind her, as debts are constantly given in banks! 😉

    Ditto share markets, insurance companies etc! And a country’s Finance Minister had to have a second woman to remind her like a prosthetic limb, a male Finance Minister is fine though!

    Similarly, widows can get half what a widower would, daughter’s half a son’s.Melayu culture, where women were always financially active, as desired & given as much inheritance as their brothers can receive half & be called forgetful, on the basis of selective readings of selective studies! 😉

    No wonder Malaysia’s Marina Mahathir says that Malaysian women are disadvantaged compared to the other races’ women in Malaysia, living under egalitarian laws! 🙂

Comment on “Quran & Hadith”.

RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2023
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact