Quran & Hadith

Sep 8th, 2006, in News, by

The validity or otherwise of the hadith tradition and its relationship to the Quran and how Muslims understand their faith.

This post has been created due to the female circumcision thread having gone substantially off-topic. Hopefully, within the spirit of the site, commenters can make some reference to the situation in Indonesia and within Indonesian Muslim organisations such as NU, etc, vis-a-vis their understanding of the hadith tradition.


212 Comments on “Quran & Hadith”

  1. Oigal says:

    has half nude picturs of women

    Don’t look?

  2. Mohammed Khafi says:

    asif raza said:

    and now after 1500 years a man comes out and denies all the books of prophetic traditons.what a shame

    But asif raza obviously cannot understand Al Quran. It is Allah Himself, who even before asif raza’s beloved hadith were written, denied them by saying:

    “In which hadith after this will they believe?” (al-A`araaf [7]:185).

    “These are God’s revelations we recite to you in truth. Then, in which hadith after God and His revelations will they believe?” (al-Jatheya [45]:6).

    “Shall I seek other than God as a source of law and judgment when He is the One who has sent down the Book to you in detail?” (al-An`am [6]:114).

    “What is wrong with you? How do you judge? Do you have another book which you study?” (al-Qalam [68]:35-36).

    Shame on you asif raza for believing the words of men over and above the words of Allah.

    Andrey, What you have quoted is not a direct translation of the verse is it? It contains additional words in brackets which do not appear in Al Quran.

    Three English translations without additions are:

    [Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
    [Yusufali 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
    [Pickthal 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

    See? No mention of the word Sunnah!

    Now if we have a dispute we can refer it to Allah by reading Al Quran, His complete perfect and fully detailed book. But how can we possibly refer it to “The Messenger” when he is already dead?

    Do we refer to Sunnah and Hadith, which contradict Al Quran in so many ways and which have never been promised Allah’s protection……..No of course not. If we look at the words of the verse it already tells us, we have to refer to “The Messenger” as the messenger is no longer with us it is implicit in the verse that we should refer to the message that he brought, Al Quran.

    Allah repeatedly makes this distinction between Messenger and Prophet, and never tells us to follow The Prophet, only to follow The Messenger and therefore implicitly referring to the message that he brought, Al Quran.

    Peace

  3. andrey says:

    I dont understand why you have to go out of your way to manufacture a paragraph of conjecture:
    “Do we refer to Sunnah and Hadith, which contradict Al Quran in so many ways and which have never been promised Allah’s protection……..No of course not. If we look at the words of the verse it already tells us, we have to refer to “The Messenger” as the messenger is no longer with us it is implicit in the verse that we should refer to the message that he brought, Al Quran.”

    while the Qur’anic text it self is very simple and clear:
    “Obey the Messenger”.

    You must be a lawyer.

  4. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Andrey said:

    while the Qur’anic text it self is very simple and clear:
    “Obey the Messenger”.

    Implicit in this phrase is the requirement to follow the message!

    We never read in the Qur’an words like “Obey Allah and obey Muhammad”, as it is not Muhammad the man that was to be obeyed, it was the messenger that was to be obeyed, this is to emphasise that what is to be obeyed is the “Message” of God and not the words, ideas or views of the man Muhammad.

    “Surely the Hukm (Law and Judgment) is for none but Allah” (12:40)

    “He does not make anyone His associate in His Hukm (Law and Judgment)” (18:26)

    “Shall I seek a Law-giver other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book distinctly elucidated.” (6:114)

    “… If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers (Kaafiroon).” (5:44)

    “… If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are Wrong Doers (Zalimoon).” (5:45)

    “…Judge between them by what Allah has sent down and do not follow their whims and desires. And beware of them lest they lure you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you….” (5:49)

    The Prophet himself only followed Al Quran:

    “And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Qur’an other than this or change it. Say: It is not for me to change it of myself; I only follow what has been revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.” (10:15)

    “Say: ‘I am nothing new among the Messengers. I have no idea what will be done with me or you. I only follow what has been revealed to me. I am only a clear warner.’” 46:9)

    “Say: O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord (The Qur’an), therefore whoever receives guidance, he does so only for the good of his own soul, and whoever goes astray, he goes astray only to the detriment of it, and I am not a disposer of affairs for you.
    And follow what is revealed to you and be patient till Allah should give judgment, and He is the best of the judges.” (10:108-109)

    Peace

  5. Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu ‘Alaikum Brothers and Sisters in Islam

    While not questioning the sincerity of brother Khafi, and hoping that such discussions would lead, Insha Allah, to a better understanding of our Holy Scripture,regarding the text of which not a single Muslim amongst more than a quarter and one billion humans inhabiting the planet disagrees and considers it Inerrant Word of God,unlike numerically greater Christian population among whom the Inerrancy of Bible is a point of contention, I would like to get across a few points regarding this specific line of reasoning regarding the meaning of the word Ar-Rasool.

    Point # 1
    If according to brother Khafi, Ar-Rasool implicity stands for Qur’aan itself, it would create problems of internal consistency of Qur’aan, which is agreed upon between us.

    For example, when Allah The Exalted says in Sooratul Al-Fat-h (48), Aayah 29:

    Muhammadur Rasoolullaah(Some ‘Ulamaa have objected to the use of any script other than that of ‘Arabi for scribing Al-Qur’aan, but perhaps IM’s interface doesn’t support that)
    Muhammad (sall Allaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) is the Rasool of Allah.

    In that case the word Rasool is being applied for the personality of the Prophet (sall Allaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam).

    Point # 2

    If we accept for the sake of argument this meaning, what would the Itaa’ah of Allaah (Obedience of God) would stand for? In such a case Atee’ullaah (Obey God) would become superfluous? Wouldn’t it?

    If we assume Itaa’ah of Allaah to be follow Al-Qur’aan(which is a matter a consensus among all of us: Sunnis, Shias and all others); what would the specific emphasis in Soorah An- Nisaa (4), Aayah 80:

    Whoever pays heed unto the Apostle pays heed unto God thereby; and as for those who turn away – We have not sent thee to be their keeper.

    Point # 3

    How should we understand Ar-Rasool and Amrihi (his bidding, his command) in Soorah Al-Noor (24),Aayah 63:

    Let those who would go against his bidding beware, lest a trial befall them or a grievous suffering befall them.

    Brother Khafi said:

    See? No mention of the word Sunnah!

    In Qur’anic terms, the word is Uswah as in Soorah Al-Ahzaab(33), Aayah 21:

    Verily, in the Apostle of God you have a good Uswah, a good example for everyone who looks forward to God and the Last Day, and remembers God unceasingly.

    I believe the protection of Uswah a part of Allah’s plan of protection of Qur’aan.

    I hope your response would be succinct. You may diagree with some of the peripherals of my arguments, but I would resquest to focus on the primary arguments,point by point, instead so that if we are investing our time it proves to be a productive and fruitful discussion in terms of our ‘Ilm(knowledge) of Kitaabullaah (Book of God).

    Oigal said

    has half nude picturs of women
    Don’t look?

    Oigal, Are you a Muslim? If it is the case then Al-Qur’aan enjoins us all to do the sacred duty of Nahee ‘Anil Munkar,that is, to discourage each other and entire humanity from Munkar:what God and His Apostle (sall Allaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) has declared unlawful (Haraam) for us. Looking at the face of an unrelated member of the opposite sex is Haraam as per the consensus of all the ‘Ulamaa of Islam. Khafi would agree on this.
    This is the sole raison detre of our collective existence,the existence of our civilisation as enunciated by Al-Qur’aan.

    Allah The Exalted says in Soorah Aali Imraan(3), Aayah (110):
    YOU ARE indeed the best community that has ever been brought forth for [the good of] mankind: you enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and you believe in God. Now if the followers of earlier revelation had attained to [this kind of] faith, it would have been for their own good; [but only few] among them are believers, while most of them are iniquitous.
    http://honorablequran.com/3.htm

  6. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Assalamu ‘Alaikum Brother Mohammad Elijah,

    I don’t disagree with your points at all, in as much as they apply to a living prophet and what comes out of his mouth, Not a dead prophet unable to reject the false claims being made in his name.

    In following Sunnah and Hadith, you are most likely not following the words of the living prophet.

    The Jews were given Torah (Pentateucht) by Allah, but prefer to follow their manmade Talmud. Nabi Isa brought Injeel, a verbal warning from Allah, but his followers have been diverted from his original warning by the manmade Gospels, and now the mainstream Muslims have fallen into the same Satanic Trap and follow Sunnah and Hadith, which like Talmud, and the Gospels, may contain some of the original message borne by The Prophet but are corrupted by manmade innovation and ignorance.

    Allah tells us that Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, and in addition is protected by Him from corruption. Where does He give that guarantee for Sunnah and Hadith?

    Peace

  7. Fawzia says:

    @Muhammad Khafi,

    The Quran is a bad enough book, even without any hadiths making it worse! All sorts of intolerance, misogyny etc can be found in its pages! Before I left Islam, I tried to be a Quranist as well.

    I know many Muslims(including many from my original homeland Iran, an ancient superpower destroyed by Islam) are turning hadith deniers in an attempt to avoid all the unpleasant stuff in hadiths, yet they’re amply present in the Quran as well!

    First its disbelievers!

    Will not the home of disbelievers be in hell 39:32

    So all those who happen to think that God doesn’t exist or are unsure of God’s existence-will go to Hell!

    This is a significant % of the world today!About 14-15%, many are excellent human beings!

    Then the Quran targets polytheists & trinitarian Christians!

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    Infact, Allah looks more kindly upon sins like pedophilia, rape, gang robbery than upon having more than One God!

    “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).

    33% of the world is Christian, 14% Hindu, 4% Chinese folk religionists, add the Japanese Shinto Buddhists, all Buddhists,Wiccans, Neo Pagans & the number of polytheists & Trinitarians far exceed the Muslim %!Many of these are again excellent people, with loving families, good jobs, contribute towards making our world a better place, yet their destiny’s supposedly Hellfire for eternity! While many Muslim monotheist wife beaters maybe forgiven!

    Also, the Quran contains loads of atrocious instructions on how to conduct our lives!

    Wife beating-Quran 4:34

    Woman’s witness in financial matters is half a man! 2:282

    Locking up lewd women in their homes till death: Quran 4:15

    Conversion or death for idolaters: Quran 9:5

    Jizya taxes for other peoples of the Book: Quran 9:29

    Amputation for theft: Quran 5:38

    The Jews were given Torah (Pentateucht) by Allah, but prefer to follow their manmade Talmud. Nabi Isa brought Injeel, a verbal warning from Allah, but his followers have been diverted from his original warning by the manmade Gospels, and now the mainstream Muslims have fallen into the same Satanic Trap and follow Sunnah and Hadith, which like Talmud, and the Gospels, may contain some of the original message borne by The Prophet but are corrupted by manmade innovation and ignorance.

    Indeed, this is an extremely sensible move on the part of the Jews & Christians! There is no evidence that Jews, Christians, Muslims & indeed later claimants like Bahaullah who founded the Bahain religion in the 19th century or Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism in the 19 th century, ever received divine messages-apart from some absurd claims in their Holy Books & each of these religions refuse latter claimants! Jews don’t accept Jesus’s claim, Christians & Jews both disbelieve Muhammad’s claims, Muslims disbelieve Bahaullah etc!

    Jews, by having a faith which is very much distinct from their text, have made their religion better, more suitable to our world!

    The Torah is extremely clear that a newlywed who doesn’t bleed on her wedding night must be stoned to death on her father’s doorstep, adulterers & adulteresses should be stoned as well, men can divorce wives simply by handing her a letter of divorce- a get etc!

    Yet, Jews haven’t stoned anywhere in the world for the last 2 millennia, even in the Mid East, this is even recorded in a Sahih hadith!

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:
    A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah’s Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. “What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?” They replied, “Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya.” ‘Abdullah bin Salam said, “O Allah’s Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah.” The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, “Lift up your hand.” Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn ‘Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

    Similarly, although the Torah gives women inheritance only if they have no brothers, Israeli laws & most Jews give both their daughters & sons equal inheritances!

    Christians too have managed to move with the times, not only that change the times!

    Thus although the Bible says that witches shouldn’t be allowed to live, Wicca is freely allowed in much of the Christian world, & is the fastest growing religion today in USA!

    Both these faiths have many members who’re willing & able to accept that these religions were made at particular points of history by men with a limited knowledge of our world!

    Its only Islam which makes gigantic claims about its divinity, with disastrous results!

    Infact, without hadiths, sometimes Islam would be even worse!

    Take that Sura about wife beating-4:34, there’s absolutely no lightly after beat, every translator throughout history has translated it as simply “beat”, before Yusuf Ali ashamed by beat added lightly after it.

    Also, as a daughter of an Arab mother, who’s as fluent in Arabic as Persian, let me tell you, if the last bit is translated as anything but beat, the sentence would be grammatically very ill!

    Or Quran 2:282, wherein a woman’s witness in financial matters is half a man’s, if this is followed, Muslimahs can’t work at all as Finance Ministers, share dealers, bankers, insurance agents etc, coz they have to always a second female to remind her, so they’d prefer to employ a man at half that salary! 😉

    I would advice at least my Iranian countrypeople to dump this unchangeable & unpleasant religion, turn Zoroastrian again, become Bahai, atheists-this religion, Quran or no Quran, hadith or no hadith, has brought too much pain & suffering to my country & so much of our world!

  8. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    Al Quran is only as bad as you wish it to be or as good as you wish to believe it is. It depends completely on your own viewpoint.

    One has to constantly bear in mind that Al Quran was revealed to a very different world to the one we live in today. The same for all the Holy Scriptures.

    Within this forum you will find where I have countered the mainstream Muslim understanding of the verses you quote, and on the internet there are many sites and many people who have done the same.

    For those strong in faith:

    “Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.” 39:18

    Each to their own path.

    Peace

  9. Muhammad Elijah says:

    Assalamu ‘Alaikum Sister Fawzia

    my original homeland Iran, an ancient superpower destroyed by Islam

    Islam is the last impregnable fortress of spirituality on this planet, and it has steadfastly refused, and will steadfastly persist in doing so, to bow down before this greatest cultural onslaught-the onslaught of a Godless culture not only in our history, but in the entire human history. If God exists, and more than a quarter and a billion inhabitants of this planet are certain of not only His existence but have the conviction that they owe a moral obligation to their Creator, to lead a practical life according to His Will, then it is upto God Himself how He manages to safegaurd this fortress.

    Hadn’t it for the Muslim conquest, that obnoxious sexual depravity prevalent in the Christendom of past, would have strangled the last remnants of spiritual life to death.The political framework Islam established didn’t aim to convert the citizens to its fold, rather it created the cradle of civilisation of spiritual and intellectual harmony, where perversion of knowledge for selfish, narrowminded, nationalistic (as is the case with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki) motives couldn’t ever have flourished, amidst a world sunk in the darkness of ignorance. You might have to this date literally worshipped fire as an omnipotent deity. The modern West is too delusional about itself to acknowledge the debt it owes to Islam, a modern Muslim with scant knowledge of his spiritual and intellectual heritage can’t possibly concieve of such a magnificent past.

    On the contrary, why you show such a diffidence bold criticism of what British colonialists did to Iran, and colonialists in general did to Muslim world.The two sons of Muslim king Bahadur Shah Zafar were beheaded before his own eyes.It was never a project of extending a spiritual empire rather a project which manifests the materialistic avarice the modern West suffers to this day. Colonialism constitutes the single greatest tragedy in our past that robbed us of our collective self-esteem, not accidentally , but purposefully(I mentioned a speech is British colonialist parliament in one of my previous posts) by our colonial masters. You are one of millions who suffer from a psychologically destructive combination of a collective Stockholm’s syndrome and a cultural inferiority complex, from which either outright renunciation of our beliefs or a very extensive exploration of our roots, our origins can salvage. Since the latter has gradually become difficult because neither we are as proficient in the language of our spiritual and intellectual past as we are in the language of our colonialist masters and a language of basically Christian origin.

    As regards your accusation of misogyny, it is only a reiteration of Western propaganda to make Muslim women underestimate the great role they are playing are mothers of Islamic civilisation, and to delude them into considering West as a greater benefactor of women. Again, the classic technique of making the subject lose his/her self esteem.

    “[This is] a side of Darwin that you wouldn’t necessarily know about,” says project director Jim Secord. It’s true that Darwin still believed that women were best adapted for carrying out domestic tasks, acknowledges Secord, but unlike others at the time, he was “quite open minded to women having an intellectual role” and took the work of female scientists seriously.
    http://blogs.sciencemag.org/origins/2009/07/darwin-women-and-science.html

    A Harvard professor answers why women may have been underrepresented “in tenured positions in science and engineering at top universities and research institutions”. In the previous year at Harvard, where Summers was president, 88 percent (28 of 32) of newly tenured faculty had been men.
    in the following statements.
    “the different availability of aptitude at the high end”.
    “there are issues of intrinsic aptitude, and particularly of the variability of aptitude”.
    “probably explains a fair amount of this problem.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers
    Does they sound like statements of a Muslim?

    Islam takes very much the same position as Darwin and Lawrence Summers took , and many others would continue to take in the future.

    Not a single woman mathematician has ever won Fields Medal, the most prestigious prize in Maths. Does this imply that West is misogynist? I consider it to be a logical implication of variability hypothesis which is debated much in the scientific community.
    As far as half share in the bequeathed property is concerned, it was a revolutionary act of economic emancipation of woman in that era even in the absence of her economic contribution.

  10. draymusa says:

    >>Does this imply that West is misogynist?<<

    "The West," like "the East," is indeed, very misogynistic.

  11. draymusa says:

    >>Take that Sura about wife beating-4:34, there’s absolutely no lightly after beat, every translator throughout history has translated it as simply “beat”, before Yusuf Ali ashamed by beat added lightly after it.

    Also, as a daughter of an Arab mother, who’s as fluent in Arabic as Persian, let me tell you, if the last bit is translated as anything but beat, the sentence would be grammatically very ill!<<

    First, you are talking about an "aya" not a "sura." This is the first error that calls your claim of fluency into question. The second error is more egregious. One who is fluent in Arabic and knowledgeable of its grammar knows that "beat" is not among the many possible meanings of the AMR of the FA'ALA form of the root D-R-B. The root D-R-B has one of the broadest semantic fields in Arabic, and in the Quran, we find about a dozen different meanings in nearly 60 verses. Of these meanings, the closest to "beat" is "strike;" however, the meaning "to strike repeatedly or intensely," which is the meaning of the English word "beat," requires a different form in the Arabic: "darriba," which is the AMR of the FA''ALA form. To claim that "idrib" means "beat" demonstrates a very poor understanding of the grammar and semantics of Arabic, and perhaps English as well.

  12. Fawzia says:

    @Muhammad Elijah,

    Islam is the last impregnable fortress of spirituality on this planet, and it has steadfastly refused, and will steadfastly persist in doing so, to bow down before this greatest cultural onslaught-the onslaught of a Godless culture not only in our history, but in the entire human history. If God exists, and more than a quarter and a billion inhabitants of this planet are certain of not only His existence but have the conviction that they owe a moral obligation to their Creator, to lead a practical life according to His Will, then it is upto God Himself how He manages to safegaurd this fortress.

    Sure, that quarter or fifth of the planet which is Muslim can do what it wants to with its own life, the problem starts where they start imposing their barbarism & immigrating legally & illegally into other lands!

    If God exists is a subjective & unprovable claim, it is no excuse for misogyny, forced hijab, anachronistic punishments etc.

    Hadn’t it for the Muslim conquest, that obnoxious sexual depravity prevalent in the Christendom of past, would have strangled the last remnants of spiritual life to death.The political framework Islam established didn’t aim to convert the citizens to its fold, rather it created the cradle of civilisation of spiritual and intellectual harmony, where perversion of knowledge for selfish, narrowminded, nationalistic (as is the case with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki) motives couldn’t ever have flourished, amidst a world sunk in the darkness of ignorance. You might have to this date literally worshipped fire as an omnipotent deity. The modern West is too delusional about itself to acknowledge the debt it owes to Islam, a modern Muslim with scant knowledge of his spiritual and intellectual heritage can’t possibly concieve of such a magnificent past.

    Indeed, had Islam not conquered & sestroyed my nation, I would in all probability been a fire worshipping Zoroastrian!And then I would still be unsure of God’s existence,but would be a cultural Zoroastrian, rather than an ex Muslim ashamed of my countdry’s behavior.

    Islam has forcibly converted & forced people to remain Muslim right from the time Prophet Muhammad acquired the ability to kill others.

    Muhammad destroyed all the 360 idols of idolators in Mecca, threatening to kill anyone who came out to protect their idols.

    Right after Muhammad died, the poor people who were forcibly converted started to apostatize(ridda) which was promptly stopped by Muslims & these people were forced to remain Musim again by force.

    It invaded my homeland Iran & thousands of poor Zoroastrians had to flee to India, many more were butchered.

    As for huge Islamic achievements-they were rather tame compared to China’s past achievements, Graeco Roman achievements etc!

    Infact, many of the stuff Muslims claim they invented-like 0 & decimal positioning system weren’t invented by Muslims at all-but by pre Islamic Hindu mushrikeen!

    Even the pre Islamic achievements of ancient Egypt, which gave the world the calendar etc, Mesopotemia, which first invented alphabet, etc are so great!

    As for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, Islam has caused far more unprovoked massacres(re Armenian Genocide) which it has neither acknowledged nor repented.

    On the contrary, why you show such a diffidence bold criticism of what British colonialists did to Iran, and colonialists in general did to Muslim world.The two sons of Muslim king Bahadur Shah Zafar were beheaded before his own eyes.It was never a project of extending a spiritual empire rather a project which manifests the materialistic avarice the modern West suffers to this day. Colonialism constitutes the single greatest tragedy in our past that robbed us of our collective self-esteem, not accidentally , but purposefully(I mentioned a speech is British colonialist parliament in one of my previous posts) by our colonial masters.

    I agree with you here, I am indeed ashamed & angry about colonialism, only I recognize the actual bad colonialism-namely Islamic colonialism!

    Islam colonized my nation 1400 years ago, when it was still a superpower! Islam invaded my nation, Iraq, North Africa, the Indian sub continent etc! These were completely unprovoked!

    My Zoroastrian ancestors, tired out by jizya taxes, lack of rights, slowly converted to this barbaric religion!

    When you speak of Bahadur Shah Zafar, please also mention what an evil fanatic his father Aurangzeb was, how many poor Hindus suffered due to his taxation, temple destructions etc!

    Islam has invaded far more nations, killed many more folks than any other people!

    When Muslims invented India, there was a great ancient Buddhist University called Nalanda, which had students from China & much of East & South East Asia!

    Muslims, as is their innate tendency, destroyed the University, beheaded thousands of monks, the place burned for months! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

    Yet, they took 0 & the decimal positioning system from India!

    This colonization has created tyrannized minorities in my Iran, in Pakistan, in Egypt etc!

    Also, Muslim nations like Turkey colonized Christian nations like Greece, where’s your criticism of all that? 😉

    Muslims from Turkey & elsewhere abducted millions of non Muslims as slaves & sold them off in Ottoman markets!

    Infact, I am very grateful for Iran’s colonization, it gave us modernity, if only for sometime!

    Also, the Brits abolished slavery in Iran, Muslim nations like Saudi, which were unfortunately never colonized by civilized folks abolished slavery as late as 1963, at the request of US President Kennedy!

    Till then, thousands of Blacks were enslaved, many even castrated. Saudi & Afghanistan, two never colonized Muslim nations, are the two worst!

  13. Cukurungan says:

    my original homeland Iran, an ancient superpower destroyed by Islam

    How come a super power can be destroyed by a few poor arabic army? Is Iranian Army so weak or at that time the Iranian Kingdom was a corrupt kingdom ?

  14. Fawzia says:

    How come a super power can be destroyed by a few poor arabic army? Is Iranian Army so weak or at that time the Iranian Kingdom was a corrupt kingdom ?

    Exactly how Alexander the Great years earlier could conquer much of the known world, from Persia to Mesopotemia to Egypt to Gandhara to much of the Indian sub continent!

    Does this mean ancient Egypt, Mesopotemia, Persia & India were backward nations?

    Or how the Mongols some centuries post Islam could conquer so much of the Muslim world, all of China & Korea etc!

    Both China & the lands ruled by Muslims were extremely wealthy & successful nations at the time of conquest!

    It doesn’t really take much for some very successful conquering power to conquer & overrun powerful nations! 😉

    However, the difference between Alexander’s invasions or Mongol invasions or even Western colonization is that it didn’t leave such a pernicious effect as Islamic invasions did!

    Most of the the Muslim nations or even cities invaded by Muslims(starting from Mecca, invaded & forcibly converted by Muhammad himself) are in a huge mess today, whereas Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan etc were extremely successful nations for many millennia before Islam, & the Islamic Golden Age was largely due to conquering these places!

  15. Fawzia says:

    As far as half share in the bequeathed property is concerned, it was a revolutionary act of economic emancipation of woman in that era even in the absence of her economic contribution.

    Her ie women’s economic contribution was great in pre Islamic Arabia, it worsened due to Muhammad’s invented Islam.

    Khadija was one of the richest in Arabia, she had also inherited much of her business, so women ran successful businesses & could even inherit!

    Where are the Khadijas in today’s Saudi, Islam’s first victim?

    Muhammad had to remain monogamous with rich old Khadija in pre Islamic Arabia, right after she died, he could marry little Ayesha, Khadijas have disappeared from Saudi, 8 year olds are still being married off! http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/04/30/71727.html

    @draymusa,

    Sure that Arabic word can mean many things, but I am talkng in the sentence, it wouldn’t fit properly with anything else.

    It can even mean travel, this is what the setence would be” talk, separate from your wife & travel her.”

    This is meaningless, a gramatically ill sentence.

    I have also asked my Arab grandfather, my uncle & even a scholar, who studied in Saudi & was born in Yemen. This scholar is a reformist btw, he thinks wife beating is wrong nowadays, yet he too said that the ayat would be grammatically unsound if beat is replaced with anything else.

    Ifind it extremely amusing that Indonesians & Turks, who can’t read Arabic, try to make that word have other, less obnoxious meanings! 😉

    Alhamdulillah for them being incapable of reading Arabic, they’re less misogynistic & intolerant that the Arabs, even if this is only due to ignorance! 😉

  16. Fawzia says:

    @Muhammad Khafi,

    Al Quran is only as bad as you wish it to be or as good as you wish to believe it is. It depends completely on your own viewpoint

    Unfortunately it isn’t quite as simple as all that! In practically every nation, every place which had the misfortune to comprehend al Quran & apply it to their lives, it has had poor results!

    I don’t think I could believe with certainty in any Deity\deities, yet had Islam been a religion like Bahai, Zoroastrianism, Judaism etc, I’d probably have retained a nominal, cultural affiliation to the faith!

    Unfortunately whenever a nation declares itself Islamic & the more its proximity to Prophet Muhammad’s homeland, the worse it becomes!

    The Arabian nations, which have the misfortune to be able to read the Quran in their mother tongue-are quite the worst in their religious intolerance, misogyny, anachronistic customs etc!

    Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran, still connected have both gone through terrible times due to Islamic extremism.

    Bangladesh & the South East Asian nations were\are somewhat beter, only due to their geographical distance from the Islamic heartlands, inability to read al Quran or make hajj frequently!

    Yet, both Malaysia & Brunei have religiously intolerant constitutions, lack rights of minorities & increasingly carry out punishments like lashings!

    Aceh, the first religion in Indonesia to be stricken with Islam, is similarly unfortunate.

    Its only nations which have managed to largely marginalize Islam-like Turkey & Tunisia, or better still where Islam has been forgotten largely by Communism like Kazakhstan & Azerbaijan which are better off!

    al Quran doesn’t become better as I or as Muslims comprehend it, it becomes best if Muslims are incapable of reading it or going on hajj, or if they’ve been purged of it through some nationalist\atheistic measures! 😉

    One has to constantly bear in mind that Al Quran was revealed to a very different world to the one we live in today. The same for all the Holy Scriptures.

    Indeed, pre Islamic Arabia & Mecca were very different worlds to what they became post Islam!

    Pre Islamic Arabia was a region of full religious tolerance, which is why Khadija’s cousin Waraqa ibn Nawfal could freely convert to Christianity without any religious persecution, whereas from the time after Islam to this day, any apostate from Islam in Saudi would be executed, courtesy the changes in time that Islam has brought! 😉

    It was a time where interfaith marriages flourished, & even the women’s rights to raise her children in her own religion was respected, which is how Kaab ibn al Ashraf’s Jewish mom could marry his Muslim dad, again without any persecutions or honor killings, & their son became Jewish & a leader of a Jewish tribe! Today, a Muslim man may marry a Jewish or Christian woman, yet their kids have to be raised Muslim, again a change Islam brought!

    Again, pre Islamic Arabia was a land where women like Khadija could inherit so much property, run a business successfully & propose to & marry a man 15 years her junior, making him remain monogamous with her!

    Women like Khadija have disappeared with Islam! 😉

    It was a land where a woman like Sajah could declare herself a Prophetess & start her own religion!

    Forget Prophetess, Muslimahs can’t even become Mullahs now! 😉

    Read Mulim feminist Fatima Mernissi’s book to know more about women’s resistance to Islam, & women like those in Hadramaut celebrating Muhammad’s death!

    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=fatima+mernissi+hadramaut&source=bl&ots=peLfFvvwic&sig=iM7d8wlUKt5bywInkwoJl–6iwI&hl=en&ei=q2A6Ss7RDdCMkAX1i-iYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

    This deterioration of woman’s rights happened in Arabia due to Islam & continues to this date!

    After this, it was the turn of other places tat fell to Islam to get rid of religious tolerance & women’s rights, like the disappearance of Khadija & Sajah with Islam from Saudi, this cancer spread to other nations!

    In Saudi, little Ayeshas are still being married off to old men, & this has even spread to Indonesia, despite the pre Islamic Indonesian culture giving women so many rights!

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/04/30/71727.html

    http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=74372

    Malaysia’s Marina Mahathir also spoke about how Muslim women in Malaysia live in apartheid, compared to Indian & Chinese Malaysian women, although Melayu culture gave women far more rights than anything Indian or Chinese culture did!

    This is due to Malaysia’s increasing Islamization!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4784784.stm

    Within this forum you will find where I have countered the mainstream Muslim understanding of the verses you quote, and on the internet there are many sites and many people who have done the same.

    What is mainstream & non mainstream interpretation? The Quran repeatedly claims that its an extremely simple book, easy for all!

    “Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.” [12:2]
    ?????? ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ??????????? ???????????

    “Behold, We have made it a Qur’an in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand.” [43:3]

    Yet, the Arabs are the worst people for understanding it in their mothertongue & people like the South East Asian Muslims are far better off due to their inability to understand!

    Every people who have tried to understand, from the Acehnese to the Saudis to the Iranians, whether mainstream or off beat have been destructive!

    Its only people who hve marginalized it-like the Turks, or those who have been purged of it, like the Azerbaijanis who are better off! 😉

    Each to their own path.

    A Pre Islamic concept! Waraqa ibn Nawfal & Kaab ibn al Ashraf are pre Islamic Arabian characters, whom we learn about from Islamic sources! The Jews, pagans & Christian converts lived in peace & harmony pre Islam!

    After Islam, apostasy became impossible, Jews became second class citizens & paganism became an excuse for idol smashing, a la Muhammad!

  17. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    A lot of what you say is incontrovertibly true, but is not caused by true Islam, it is caused by the corruption of Islam by Sunnah and Hadith. True Islam supports womens rights, individual freedom and the right to question.

    During the period of The Prophet, there are many examples of treaties drawn up by Muhammed, between both Jews and Christians, where he upholds their rights to practice their religion as they have done in the past, they are subjected to jiyazah taxes, but taxes are a normal part of any functional society to pay for administration, armies, community buildings etc. Yes lands were taken by force, but given the history of the period that was nothing unusual. You only need to look at the glories of Al Andalus to see that Muslims, Christians, and Jews, could all live together, study together, and build functional peacefull societies together.

    The destruction of Al Andalus, and the eventual fall of Islam from a benevolent religion, which based on Al Quran, respected all other religions, to its present pitiful state was brought about by the replacment of Al Quran as guidance by Sunnah and Hadith as guidance.

    Please do not make the mistake of interpreting Al Quran based on Sunnah and Hadith or the practices of mainstream Muslims.

    Although you would not know it to look at the behaviour of Mainstream Muslims, the Islam of Al Quran is the only religious book of the Abrahamic lineage that tells us to respect people of all other faiths, and to acknowledge all previous prophets. True Islam is not Mainstream Islam, it is the essence of all faiths, condensed into one.

    Any who believe in God, believe in the day of judgement and does good deeds, has nothing to fear from God”

    Islam is not the hatefull religion of the extremist Mullahs, which tries to destroy womens rights, education, freedoom of thought and all that is good and pleasant in the world, it is not the religion of the terrorists and hatemongerers, which use fear as their tool to promote their viewpoint.

    What most Mainstream Muslims hate to admit is that Islam as given to them is not the religion of Muhammed, it is the religion of Nabi Ibrahim, a simple religion based on simple belief in God, no places for prayer, which can come from the heart anywhere anytime, no religious rituals, because God doesn’t need them, no religious scholars, because it is so simple and doesn’t need others to explain it . Like all other religions before them the mainstream Muslims have created all the extra rules, the rituals, and their clergy and scholars, because the simple words of God were not enough for them.

    Believe what you want about religions Fawzia, practice in any way you want, but for your own soul’s sake don’t give up in a belief in God.

    Don’t forget:”Any who believe in God, believe in the day of judgement and does good deeds, has nothing to fear from God”

    That is the essence of Islam for me, it matters not if you are Zoroaster, Jew, Christian, Hindu, whatever, as long as you follow that one simple principle.

    Peace Sister

  18. shuhei says:

    M. Khafi, if Islam is really like what you said, then how can soooo many people, more than one billions of people go wrong?

    Can’t God preserve His religion?

    Imagine this, one billions mainstream Muslims are the wrong ones … It’s really hard to believe.

    It’s also really hard to believe that Muslims don’t have to perform their ritual of prayers, of hajj, etc.

    How can you convince us, the mainsream Muslims, to change our view?

  19. Fawzia says:

    A lot of what you say is incontrovertibly true, but is not caused by true Islam, it is caused by the corruption of Islam by Sunnah and Hadith. True Islam supports womens rights, individual freedom and the right to question.

    If by true Islam, you mean the Islam of the Quran, then the Quran as I said is quite a sexist & intolerant book in itself!

    It is Quranic Islam which says women’s testimony in financial matters is half a man’s (2:282), a lewd woman is to be given life imprisonment(Quran 4:15), husband can discipline his wife by various means but not vice verse(4:34) etc! It is Quran, not hadith which says idol worshippers will be spared only after they convert to Islam(Quran 9:5)

    It is the Quran which tells people not to question, coz some Muslims did this & on that account lost their faith!

    “O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble… Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” (Quran. 5:101-102) 😉

    During the period of The Prophet, there are many examples of treaties drawn up by Muhammed, between both Jews and Christians, where he upholds their rights to practice their religion as they have done in the past, they are subjected to jiyazah taxes, but taxes are a normal part of any functional society to pay for administration, armies, community buildings etc. Yes lands were taken by force, but given the history of the period that was nothing unusual.

    During the period of the Prophet, the region of what is now Saudi Arabia was a vibrant multi faith & multi cultural centre-it had Jewish tribes, it had idolaters worshipping 360 gods, it had Christian converts like Waraqa!

    All these folks-idol worshippers, Jews & Christian converts were cleansed out of Arabia with the arrival of Islam! It was Islam & Muhammad who transformed the vibrant,multi faith region into a nation of solely Muslims!

    Jews & idolators never fought with each other over religion, they co existed peacefully, nor did they persecute Christian converts like Waraqa, it was only when Islam arrived on the scene that Jews & idolators made a bid to fight in a desperate attempt to survive! Alas! Muhammad cleansed the region of Jews & pagans, letting only Muslims remain!

    After Muhammad died, pagans again started apostatizing(ridda) which was brutally suppressed by Muhammad’s followers?

    If there’s no compulsion, why were the ridda rebels forced to remain Muslim? They hadn’t attacked Muslims, they’d simly wanted to dump the unpleasant faith to which someone called Muhammad had converted them by smashing thei idols!

    You only need to look at the glories of Al Andalus to see that Muslims, Christians, and Jews, could all live together, study together, and build functional peacefull societies together.

    Utter bollocks! As soon as Islam attacked my country Iran, Zoroastrians fled en masse to India, with their wives, kids & ageing parents, seeking asylum in a faraway land! Many perished in the treacherous journey! They left all their property behind! Zoroastrians were persecuted & their fire temples destroyed right from the 8th century!

    In Iran, where Zoroastrianism has its roots, discrimination and harassment began immediately following the Islamic Conquests in Iran of the seventh century in the form of sparse violence and forced conversions.[2] The persecution increased in the 700s, during the reign of the late Umayyad Caliphs, whose dynastic predecessors had conquered most of the last Zoroastrian state by 652.[1][3][4] The persecution of Zoroastrians increased significantly under the Abbasids (752 – 804), “under whose rule the temples and sacred-fire shrines were destroyed.”[5] Also during Abbasid rule, the status of Zoroastrians in Persian lands was reduced from zimmi (or dhimmi, people who were protected by the state and generally considered “People of the Book”) to kafirs (nonbelievers).

    This was long before any fall of Andalus! Would you flee with your wife & children to the moon(in those days, going to unknown India would be similar) if you were ruled by a tolerant people?

    As for al Andalus, it was tolerant only for a short time, but even then there were massacres against Jews!

    Here from the Wikipedia article!

    With the death of Al-Hakam II Ibn Abd-ar-Rahman in 976, the Caliphate began to dissolve, and the position of the Jews became more precarious under the various smaller Kingdoms. The first major persecution was the 1066 Granada massacre, which occurred on December 30, when a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. “More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day.”[9] This was the first persecution of Jews on the Peninsula under Islamic rule.

    Manuscript page by Maimonides, one of the greatest Jewish scholars of Al Andalus, born in Córdoba. Arabic language in Hebrew letters
    Beginning in 1090 the situation deteriorated further with the invasion of the Almoravids, a puritan Muslim sect from Morocco. Even under the Almoravids, some Jews prospered (although far more so under Ali III, than under his father Yusuf ibn Tashfin). Among those who held the title of “vizier” or “nasi” in Almoravid times were the poet and physician Abu Ayyub Solomon ibn al-Mu’allam, Abraham ibn Meïr ibn Kamnial, Abu Isaac ibn Muhajar, and Solomon ibn Farusal (although Solomon was murdered May 2, 1108). The Almoravids, were ousted from the peninsula in 1148; however, the peninsula was again invaded, by the even more puritanical Almohades. Under the reign of the Almohades, many Jews were forced to accept the Islamic faith; the conquerors confiscated their property and took their wives and children, many of whom were sold as slaves. The most famous Jewish educational institutions were closed, and synagogues everywhere destroyed.
    During the reign of these Berber dynasties, many Jewish and even Muslim scholars left the Muslim-controlled portion of Iberia for the city of Toledo, which had been reconquered in 1085 by Christian forces.

    So one dynasty was relatively tolerant, however, soon Jews had to flee to neighbouring Christian kingdoms! Even tolerance for more than a few centuries is difficult for Muslims, anywhere it seems!

    You might also like to learn of places where Jews enjoyed complete, not even relative tolerance? Jews have lived in India for over two millennia, where they’ve never suffered anti Semitism at the hands of the polytheistic Hindu\Buddhists(although Muslims & Christians in India have persecuted them)!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India

    As an Iranian, let me also tell you about Cyrus the Great, Iranian Zoroastrian King who gave the Jews absolute equality, rebuilt their temple & is revered as some sort of Messiah by Jews!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

    The destruction of Al Andalus, and the eventual fall of Islam from a benevolent religion, which based on Al Quran, respected all other religions, to its present pitiful state was brought about by the replacment of Al Quran as guidance by Sunnah and Hadith as guidance.

    As I have shown, this claim is rubbish, even from the example of a single nation, my birthplace Iran! Persecutions began as soon as Muslims arrived, centuries before any al Andalus! Infact, persecutions & forced conversions began with Muhamad himself, & his destruction of 360 idols which their followers regarded as their Gods! How would you like it if someone tears all Qurans, which you think is God’s word?

    More examples can be seen from more nations but I won’t make this post lengthier!

    I’ll address the last bits in another post.

  20. Fawzia says:

    Please do not make the mistake of interpreting Al Quran based on Sunnah and Hadith or the practices of mainstream Muslims.

    I assure you, before I left Islam, I tried to interpret & explain it away in every possible way, first I deied ibn Ishaq’s Sira, the hadiths, the behavior of Muslims as “untrue Islam”, even sites which tried to find new meanings of Arabic words to make the Quran better!

    Unfortunately it remained impossible to explain all the unpalatable stuff away! My parents accept my decision, but I know that they’re disappointed & I broke my maternal grandparents’ hearts! Yet, I can’t accept all those extraordinary explanations to satisfy anyone.

    Although you would not know it to look at the behaviour of Mainstream Muslims, the Islam of Al Quran is the only religious book of the Abrahamic lineage that tells us to respect people of all other faiths, and to acknowledge all previous prophets. True Islam is not Mainstream Islam, it is the essence of all faiths, condensed into one.

    Sure, all new Prophets in the Abrahamic chain accept previous ones, only they like to be the last one themselves! Jesus accepted the OT, Muslims both the OT Prophets & Jesus. Muhammad conveniently declared himself last Prophet, so that no one else can steal his thunder!

    Besides, there are plnty of lines in the al Quran, which preach hatred, hellfire & even forced conversion for idolators, Trinitarians etc! No doubt Jews & Christians can similarly explain away the intolerance in their texts to show how tolerant their faiths are textually! I have encountered Jews & Christians who do selective quotations from their texts to prove this.

    Besides, Quran isn’t the only Abrahamic faith which does this, have you heard of the Bahai faith? It accepts all previous Prophets, including Muhammad, the OT guys, Jesus, even Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna etc! Learn about the Bahai faith. The Bahais also have far more textual gender equality than Islam, also it too claims to be the condensed version of all previous faiths-Abrahamic & even non Abrahamic! 😉

    Islam is not the hatefull religion of the extremist Mullahs, which tries to destroy womens rights, education, freedoom of thought and all that is good and pleasant in the world, it is not the religion of the terrorists and hatemongerers, which use fear as their tool to promote their viewpoint.

    Again, very subjective viewpoints & extremely ahistorical claims. Islam right from its inception has been so used. Women like Khadija, women founders of religion like Sajah, other religions like paganism & Judaism all disappeared from Saudi with Islam.

    What most Mainstream Muslims hate to admit is that Islam as given to them is not the religion of Muhammed, it is the religion of Nabi Ibrahim, a simple religion based on simple belief in God, no places for prayer, which can come from the heart anywhere anytime, no religious rituals, because God doesn’t need them, no religious scholars, because it is so simple and doesn’t need others to explain it . Like all other religions before them the mainstream Muslims have created all the extra rules, the rituals, and their clergy and scholars, because the simple words of God were not enough for them.

    And what is so nice & respectable about Ibrahim, that anyone should so respect a faith based on him? He has an infertile wife, gets a son from another woman, fails to pay child support to that woman & her child & treats them brutally-abandoning them.

    What is so admirable about a religion based on him? He seems to be a prime candidate to be sent to jail for spousal & child abuse(and bigamy).

    Believe what you want about religions Fawzia, practice in any way you want, but for your own soul’s sake don’t give up in a belief in God.

    Don’t forget:”Any who believe in God, believe in the day of judgement and does good deeds, has nothing to fear from God”

    I don’t “choose” to disbelieve in God, I can’t believe, I’m sure an omnipotent God will see through my pretence if I try to fake belief. 😉

    I can’t believe in God anymore than you can believe in invisible sky pixies. Would you believe in sky pixies if I told you it was for your soul’s sake? 😉

    Yes, I do good works, I don’t know if I have a soul or an afterlife. Is it fair to punish someone for being incapable of believing an unprovable claim, if they lead a good life? Also, if I can’t believe, I can’t decide to have faith, I can only have false pretence, God would surely understand if He’s Omnipotent that I’m faking it.

    What if its Allah that is false, & Invisible Pixies who’re true? Why would an Almighty be so insecure to not appear before us, yet burn people for disbelief?

    That is the essence of Islam for me, it matters not if you are Zoroaster, Jew, Christian, Hindu, whatever, as long as you follow that one simple principle.

    That one simple principle isn’t folllowed by even all religious people. Hindus believe in multiple gods, also they believe in reincarnation, many births-no last day of judgment-only a blending into divinity once all lessons are learnt through rebirth.

    Also, Hinduism allows atheism, there’s a Hindu school of thought called Charvakas who are atheists.

    Buddhism is an agnostic faith, it too disbelieves in last day, it also has reincarnation.

    Besides, many modern day Jews are atheists\agnosts, they retain a cultural affiliation to their faith, without any textual beliefs.

    Besides, Allah even claims in the Quran(not even hadiths) that Christians who believe Jesus is Divine, will go to Hell.

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    This is a very primary, mainstream Christian belief-similar to your belief of Last Day.

    It might interest you to know about the Jewish principle of reincarnation, called gilgul!

    😉

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgul

    Many of these folks hold beliefs different from the straighjacket God, Heaven, Hell & Last Day, yet most lead good, honorable lives. They don’t believe in Last Day anymore than you believe in Mt Olympus being home of the Greek Gods, yet they’re all very good people.

  21. Mohammed Khafi says:

    @Shuhei

    Shuhei,

    Mainstream Islam has followed the path of all revealed religions, and invented rules, regulations and rituals far removed from the simplicity of original revelations, God hasn’t prevented the Hindus, from taking on multiple gods, the Jews from creating a lifestyle based on Talmud, Christians from beleiving in Trinity, What makes you think that Mainstream Islam is any more protected than the other religions. God gives us freewill to follow what we wish, we have to use all revealed scriptures, knowledge and intellect to follow what is good and reject what is bad.

    I cannot convince you to change your views, only Allah can do that. But He will only do so if you yourself wish it to happpen:

    Verily never will Allah change a condition of a people until they change what is within their souls. Ra’d 13:11

    Peace

  22. Fawzia says:

    God hasn’t prevented the Hindus, from taking on multiple gods,

    What is wrong with this? For many millennia before the first monotheisms of Judaism & Zoroastrianism made their appearance made their monotheistic claims-people had multiple gods. All the cave dwellers, the ancient civilizations like Egypt, Mesopotemia, Greece etc had many gods.

    How do we know that many gods didn’t collaborate on the making of our universe, each handling a particular department?

    Look at all inventions around us-the computer was developed by many scientists & engineers, so was the T.V., often buildings are constructed by many architects, maybe many gods did indeed create our universe! 😉

    There is as much “proof” of the existence of a Single God as there are of many Gods!Superstitions aren’t reduced in monotheism, only centred on a single God. So we have absurd stuff like djinns, angels, Iblees etc! No wonder the Arab pagans found it all absurd & unbelievable, & Muhammad had to smash their idols & threaten to kill them if they fought back to make them believe! 😉

    the Jews from creating a lifestyle based on Talmud,

    The Talmud is a big improvement on the Torah, its great that the Jews had the common sense to stop stoning non bleeding newlyweds on their Daddy’s doorstep & other such barbaric acts 2000+ years ago. One group of folks, the Muslims doing it is more than bad enough!

    I find it very telling on the huge differences between Jews & Muslims that while both lived\live in Iran, only Muslims stone.

    Christians from beleiving in Trinity,

    Again, whats wrong in a Trinity? I know many companies which were founded by three people, how do we know that God isn’t three in One?

    How is your Single God & Iblees anymore believable than three gods? Both have absurd & unprovable stories, how is One Allah very logical?

    I like Christian schools, hospitals, Universities, they’re far more useful than any Muslim madrassas!

    If three Gods can have such a positive effect, I’d rather believe in Christian three than Muslim Single! 😉

  23. Mohammed Khafi says:

    @ Fawzia,

    Fawzia said:

    Many of these folks hold beliefs different from the straighjacket God, Heaven, Hell & Last Day, yet most lead good, honorable lives. They don’t believe in Last Day anymore than you believe in Mt Olympus being home of the Greek Gods, yet they’re all very good people.

    I too hold different beliefs, but I still retain my belief in God!

    I think you need to revisit your history of Zoroastrians and the invasion of the Muslims. Your viewpoint seems to be biased against Islam, which is understandable but is it chronologically correct?

    I said that the original practices of the Prophet were accepting and tolerant of other religions, and it was only after his death and actually after the death of The Rightly Guided Caliphs, that Islam started to become corrupted By Sunnah and Hadith. This is borne out by the following Chronology:

    Under the first four Caliphs (632-661 CE), the direct descendants of the prophet Mohammed, Iran remained predominantly Zoroastrian and the high priest of the Zoroastrians still made his home in Ctesiphon, the Sasanian capital.

    The first four Caliphs were followed by the Umayads (661-750 CE), who ruled from Syria. They seemed to have left the Zoroastrians alone as long as they paid the Jizya tax. During this time, the official language of Iran became Arabic instead of Persian. While Moslem Iranians readily learned the new language, the Zoroastrians hated it, and avoided it as the language of Moslems. Thus they were left out of all government positions.

    The Iranian Moslems at this time started a new tradition, which made Islam appear as a partly Iranian religion. They pointed out that an Iranian Zoroastrian, Salaman -I-Farsi had a great influence on Mohammed, the prophet. They also created the myth that Husayn, the son of the fourth Caliph had married a Sasanian princess, named Shahr-Banu, whose son became the fourth Shia Imam (and started the Shia branch of Islam). The Iranian Moslems believed that Shia Islam was derived from Sasanian Royalty! These two beliefs made it easier for Zoroastrians to convert

    The Umayads were followed by the Abbasid dynasty which came to power with the help of Iranian Moslems. They respected not only the Iranian Moslems but also the Zoroastrians. Iranian Moslems were welcomed to the court, but not Zoroastrians and some Zoroastrians found it advantageous to convert to Islam. Thus even the kindness of the Abbassids seemed to have worked to convert more Zoroastrians to Islam.

    The Abbasids were followed by the Saffavids (869-903 CE). During their reign the Zoroastrians, for the first time became a minority in Iran. The Zoroastrians lived under the leadership of their High Priest, since they had no king. The great fire temple of Adar Gushnasp was still functioning up to the middle of the 10th century. Zoroastrian priests and even some lay persons wrote books on our religion. It was at this time that the Dinkard was written. This book which is still available to us has many discussions on our religion. Most importantly it summarizes the contents of the 19 of the 21 Nasks (the religious literature written in 21 books). By this time one of the Nasks was entirely lost and another only existed in its Avesta form, its Zand (the Phalevi commentary) was lost.

    Please visit Fezana Religious Education, if you wish to learn more about Zoroastrianism

    What is interesting here is that the initial converts to Islam were not forced, they either did it to gain power and influence in the Abbassid court or were enticed into the original pure version of Islam, because it was less complicated and ritualistic than Zoroastrianism had become.

    What is also interesting is that it was a large proportion of these Iranian converts who are responsible for the collections of Sunnah and Hadith, which was later to corrupt the original practices of Islam, turning it from a tool for freeing the subdjugated masses into a tool for controlling them, again for power or influence?

    As to the Golden Age of Al Andalus it follows this chronology:

    Al Andalus successively constituted a province of the Umayyad Caliphate, initiated by the Caliph Al-Walid I (711-750); the Emirate of Córdoba (c. 750-929); the Caliphate of Córdoba (929-1031);

    Synonymous with the period in Iran in which the Zoroastrians were shown respect by their Muslin conquerors. Although the invasion of Persia took place a little earlier, there is certainly no evidence to support your quote:

    Persecutions began as soon as Muslims arrived, centuries before any al Andalus!

    It would seem that your statement of “*tter *ollocks” seems to be completely undeserved?

    Your nation is not the only one to loose its cultural identity under the corrupt teachings of mainstream Islam. But it seems to have done more harm to the original tolerant teachings of Islam that any other! Is self harm a characteristic of the Iranian people? (That was a rhetorical question by the way!)

    I cannot change history and can never make things as they were, but I can do my part in trying to prevent any further damage and maybe hopefully open peoples hearts and minds to the corruption which has taken place.

    I am sorry you have lost your faith, but that is your choice, your path is your own choice and mine is mine.

    Peace

  24. Fawzia says:

    I too hold different beliefs, but I still retain my belief in God!

    Well, I don’t, & I see it as no excuse for any Omnipotent God to burn me eternally in Hellfire! At leastHe\She\It\They could have shown itself to us disbelievers before deciding to burn us eternally!

    I think you need to revisit your history of Zoroastrians and the invasion of the Muslims. Your viewpoint seems to be biased against Islam, which is understandable but is it chronologically correct?

    Your link to the Fezana Institute gives me this bit:

    I’m quoting from the Fezana Institute:

    All non-Moslems were made to pay an extra tax called the Jizya. The penalty for not paying, was death, enslavement or imprisonment. Even when the Zoroastrians paid the tax, they were subjected to insults by the tax-collectors. Zoroastrian temples were systematically destroyed and mosques built in their place. Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam. Because of these many difficulties Zoroastrians started to convert to Islam. Many who converted just for the convenience were unable to return to their faith, even if they wanted to, because the penalty for re-conversion was death. Once a Zoroastrian family converted to Islam, the children had to go to Moslem religion school and learn Arabic and the teachings of the Quran. These children lost their Zoroastrian identity.</blockquote>

    Hmm, lovely tolerance innit? 😉

    Catch off prisoners of war, convert them, no permission to reconvert! 😉

    If the “First Four Caliphs” were such nice folks, why did Zoroastrians flee to India almost as soon as Islam attacked? They took their families, leaving all their property & their land!

    I said that the original practices of the Prophet were accepting and tolerant of other religions, and it was only after his death and actually after the death of The Rightly Guided Caliphs, that Islam started to become corrupted By Sunnah and Hadith. This is borne out by the following Chronology:

    Original practices of Muhammad tolerant??? Sure, as long as Muhammad could not assemble a large enough army, practices were tolerant, only as Muhammad was too weak!

    As soon as he could collect an army, he marched into Mecca & destroyed the 360 idols of idolators, chanting, “Truth has come,”

    Since when is smashing others’ religious structures a tolerant act? 😉

    Would you call it a tolerant act if someone burnt all Qurans, chanting, “Truth has come, falsehood disappeared, as falsehood is bound to disappear”? 😉

    He was helped by the earlier Caliphs!

    What is interesting here is that the initial converts to Islam were not forced, they either did it to gain power and influence in the Abbassid court or were enticed into the original pure version of Islam, because it was less complicated and ritualistic than Zoroastrianism had become.

    How is it right to make people convert to gain power in the court? Shouldn’t all people have equal power & rights, irrespective of religion?

    Besides, your Fezana Institute also says all these!

    All non-Moslems were made to pay an extra tax called the Jizya. The penalty for not paying, was death, enslavement or imprisonment. Even when the Zoroastrians paid the tax, they were subjected to insults by the tax-collectors. Zoroastrian temples were systematically destroyed and mosques built in their place. Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam.

    My poor Zoroastrian ancestors, tired out by jizya taxes, seeing how their temples were destroyed, or being captured as a slave, chose this barbaric faith! Or maybe some greedy ancestor chose this vile faith to gain power in Court!

    The bit you quoted only says that under the First Four Caliphs, Iran remained majority Zoroastrian! How does it show that the first four Caliphs were tolerant? It only shows that the early Zoroastrians were extremely resilient to conversion attempts, however, people will gradually choose the easy way out, which they did!

    What is also interesting is that it was a large proportion of these Iranian converts who are responsible for the collections of Sunnah and Hadith, which was later to corrupt the original practices of Islam, turning it from a tool for freeing the subdjugated masses into a tool for controlling them, again for power or influence?

    Even without hadiths or Sunnah, the Quran has enough vile practices from wife beating, to giving lewd women life imprisonment to idolator forced conversion etc!

    Synonymous with the period in Iran in which the Zoroastrians were shown respect by their Muslin conquerors. Although the invasion of Persia took place a little earlier, there is certainly no evidence to support your quote:

    Really? Shown respect? I suppose capturing people in battles, breaking their temples(or smashing their idols like Muhammad did) is some sort of respect?

    The only thing your Fezana Institute link says is that Iran still remained majority Zoroastrian in the time of the first Caliphs! How does that show respect? It merely shows that it takes time to completely convert people!

    No doubt, during the time of the first European settlers, USA remained majority Native American, does it mean earlier settlers were all kind folks, or does it mean that it took time to destroy some people? 😉

    It would seem that your statement of “*tter *ollocks” seems to be completely undeserved?

    Nope, its completely deserved, you think peole, especially millions can be forcibly converted by magic, or its a “tolerant place”. Such stuff take time.

    Your nation is not the only one to loose its cultural identity under the corrupt teachings of mainstream Islam. But it seems to have done more harm to the original tolerant teachings of Islam that any other! Is self harm a characteristic of the Iranian people? (That was a rhetorical question by the way!)

    Oh no need of any “corrupt teachings” 😉
    The Quran with its intolerance & misogyny is enough for harm!

    Original teachings of Islam started in Saudi, where Muhammad did the “tolerant” act of smashing others 360 idols! Did Iranians go to Arabia on an idol smashing mission?

    Iran, thinkfully is still better than Afghanistan or Saudi, thanks to the fact that were were colonized by the Brits, unlike Saudi or Afghanistan, which had the misfortune to never be colonized by civilized folks?

    I cannot change history and can never make things as they were, but I can do my part in trying to prevent any further damage and maybe hopefully open peoples hearts and minds to the corruption which has taken place.

    Sure, please stop further corruption of Muhammad’s “tolerant” teachings, Muhammad smashed 360 idols of idolators didn’t he, chanting “Truth has come…”

    How about going to neighbouring Bali, smashing their temples & idols chanting, “Truth has come…” 😉

    I’m not even asking you to follow hadiths here, this is straight afrom the Quran! No “corrupt” Iranian beliefs here! 😉

    Have a nice idol smashing mission in Bali!

    Indonesia, with the exception of Aceh, Islam’s first victim, was still tolerant due to ignorance, now there haven’t been any attacks in Bali after 2002 & 2005! 😉

    How about spicing things up a bit?

    “Truth has come, falsehood vanished, verily falsehood is ever vanishing.”
    Quran, Chapter 17: Al-Isra (The Journey by Night), verse 81

    Happy idol smashing mission, minus hadiths! 😉

  25. Fawzia says:

    @ Muhammad Khafi,

    I forgot to quote the very beginning of your Fezana Institute history. http://zoreled.org/historyzorislamiciran.aspx

    Here:

    The Arab invasion of Iran was quite different from that of Alexander, the Greek many centuries before. The purpose of the Arabs was not only to conquer but to spread Islam. Unlike the Greeks, the Arabs set out to destroy Zoroastrianism in Iran. This was accomplished not by killing Zoroastrians but by making laws and rules which made life difficult for Zoroastrians.

    I think right at the beginning, even the Fezana Isntitute makes clear what was so wrong about Islamic invasions, vis a vis Alexander the Great or previous folks!

    Muslims ie Arabs invaded not only “was not only to conquer but to spread Islam. Unlike the Greeks, the Arabs set out to destroy Zoroastrianism in Iran. This was accomplished not by killing Zoroastrians but by making laws and rules which made life difficult for Zoroastrians

    This is exactly what is so wrong with Muhammad, his Caliphs & his religion-while most faiths have had periods of violence, none started out so badly & violently.

    Jesus or the Buddha(who was a Prince, could have easily got an army) didn’t destroy others idols & conquer people, neither of their followers immediately started attacking other nations to spread their faith, like Muslims did to spread their vile faith.

    Jesus followers endured a period of persecutions, long centuries they didn’t attack anyone. Same with Buddha & Buddhism-Buddhism spread from India to China, how many Chinese did Indians slaughter to convert them? 😉

    None.

    Yes, the ancient world had conquests, like those of Alexander the Great, but Alexander didn’t destroy religions & establish Greek paganism! Conquest to facilitate conversion, rightm from the Conquest of Mecca by Muhamad was a vile Islamic practice.

    As soon as Muhammad got an army,he attacked Mecca, destroyed others idols. His followers immediately began to attack others!

    Course, they realised that in case of big nations like Iran, Iraq etc, conversions would take time, so as the Fezana Institute says,

    This was accomplished not by killing Zoroastrians but by making laws and rules which made life difficult for Zoroastrians

    The only thing you can show to claim that Islam was tolerant was that Iran was still majority Zoroastrian at the time of the first four caliphs, but surely such drastic changes can’t be achieved overnight!

    By making life difficult, via conversion of slaves or death penalty for apostasy, this was achieved.

    Even in case of Andalus,

    Al Andalus successively constituted a province of the Umayyad Caliphate, initiated by the Caliph Al-Walid I (711-750); the Emirate of Córdoba (c. 750-929); the Caliphate of Córdoba (929-1031)

    In the earlier period Muslims were an extremely small minority, they can’t start immediately forcibly converting & killing everyone, they needed some people on their team, so Jews were treated well.

    After a few centuries, Muslims managed to have sufficient numbers to start killing & oppressing Jews, which they did!

    This is nothing but Muhammad’s strategy, not even from the hadiths, but straight from the Quran.

    When Muhammad was weak, Allah revealed stuff like, “To you your religion, to me mine,” as soon as he became strong enough with followers, it became,” Fight wherever you find them, but if they repent, take to prayer & render the alms levy-ie become Muslims, let them go their way.” 😉

  26. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Fawzia,

    I can see why you left Islam, you clearly have no understanding of what it is about. Your misquoted and out of context quotes from Al Quran, can be found refuted on many, many sites on the internet, you seem to be spewing out the anti Islamic rhetoric of the many extremist Christian sites on the internet.

    You have carefully or ignorantly avoided the chronology of the Islamisation of Persia, which was only brought about by the corruption of the early Islamic religion by your own Persian converts to Islam, You try to back up your view of the early life of the Prophet by quoting from Sirah, which from the viewpoint of a modern educated person is full of corruptions, lies and nonsense, just as are the Hadith.

    You are carefull to not admit your error in the comparison of the chronology of Al Andalus and the period of the Muslim take over of Persia.

    Earlier in this thread draymusa questioned your fluency in Arabic, I now have to question your understanding of Al Quran in the proper historical context, your knowledge of Islam in History and even your knowledge of what you call your Persian Cultural Heritage.

    Most of all I question your reasons for posting on this site? You will never change Islam from the outside, especially after having given up your faith.

    You have a lot of hatred girl, better that you seek a therapist rather than trying to spread your disinformation on the internet.

  27. draymusa says:

    >>Sure that Arabic word can mean many things, but I am talkng in the sentence, it wouldn’t fit properly with anything else.

    It can even mean travel, this is what the setence would be” talk, separate from your wife & travel her.”

    This is meaningless, a gramatically ill sentence.<<

    It is only ill because you are ignoring the grammar of the target language, English. In rendering a tranaltion, one must consider both the source language and the target language. The word IDRIB in Arabic means to travel in the sense of "hit the road" in English. The Arabic word does not need a preposition, but the English word "travel" does. Just as you added the English preposition "from" after "separate" (the Arabic verb uses no prepositioin), you must also add it after "travel," making the sentence: "Separate from them in bed and travel from them." An even more accurate way of rendering it that is more faithful to both the source language and the target language is "leave them."

    One of the most important aspects that your are also ignoring, either deliberately or through simple ignorance, is context. If we continue reading, we see that immediately following this verse comes the instructions on how to dissolve the marriage. Taking this broader context into consideration show that "leave them" makes the most sense as the best translation for IDRIBHUNNA.

  28. draymusa says:

    >>You have a lot of hatred<<

    This is the problem. As you mentioned previous, the Quran is as good or bad as a reader wants it to be. This is becuae the reader's understanding of the text says more about the reader than it does about the book. Every reader brings her or himself to the text, and the text acts as a mirror reflecting the heart and mind of the reader. The ugliness or beauty one sees is only a reflection of that heart and mind.

  29. shuhei says:

    Fawzia,

    You are looking (at Islam) with dark glasses, so even the light looks dark.

    There’s no point in answering you actually, as whatever we say you’ll find a way to refute it.

    When you really look, you’ll find. And you clearly look to attack Islam, and that’s why you keep finding all negative “facts” about Islam to do it.

    Eventhough the “facts” you used, we don’t know either if they are accurate or not. You are talking about big generalizations that are questionable.

    You are using small examples (cases) to draw big conclusions. You have problems with not only hatred but also logic.

    I’ll use an analogy. When I left my previous boss because he was such a mean man in my eyes, I don’t then go around and spread libels and defamation about him.

    I’m glad I am rid of that man, and that’s it. I move on with my life. I let people judge for themselves if the ex boss is really evil or not. If they think so, they’ll leave him, as well.

    Why don’t you do the same? Let time and human’s capability for advancement and rational thinking be the judge. You can’t conceal the truth forever. People will find out.

    But what is it that you gain by spreading hatred and probably misinformation like this?

    Those who hate Islam will still hate Islam, nothing changes.

    Those who love Islam will probably love Islam even more, so nothing gained either.

    But YOU, you yourself will get hurt even more, deep inside. Everything you say (they’re so negative) will reopen a deep wound in yourself. I pity you Fawzia. If you hate Islam so much, if you find Islam wrong, you should be able to find peace and happiness by leaving it.

    Not misery due to strong hatred like this.

    You should concentrate on your new life, new belief (or disbelief) and not continously looking back. Promote that new belief in a peaceful and beautiful way, if you will, so people can have an alternative, if they want to.

    Please question your own motives for posting here.

    And I do hope you soon find the peace you are seeking when you left Islam.

  30. Fawzia says:

    I can see why you left Islam, you clearly have no understanding of what it is about. Your misquoted and out of context quotes from Al Quran, can be found refuted on many, many sites on the internet, you seem to be spewing out the anti Islamic rhetoric of the many extremist Christian sites on the internet.

    I assume those who understand it better make the world a more beautiful & pleasant place? 😉
    I have seen a bit of the Muslim Arab countries, no plac has been so harmed due to understanding this book, no place’s religious tolerance has been so shattered, no place’s women so badly treated!

    Its difficult to believe, when one visits Saudi, that it was the land where Kaab ibn al Ashraf’s Jewish mother & pagan father could have an interfaith marriage, & Waraqa could freely convert to Christianity, where Khadija was the richest businessperson & Sajah could start her own religion & get followers! 🙂

    I wonder if, in yor desperate attempt to salvage your faith, you have bothered to read the Quran, after somehow finding the comfort with throwing away hadiths.

    The Quran, on almost every page, teaches believers to despise unbelievers, on almost every page, it sows the seeds of religious tolerance.

    In the beginning, its simple hate speech against “unbelievers”, later it goes onto urge some great religion inspired wars against Jews & pagans, the other residents of the peninsula of the time.

    It devotes a chapter on women, only to tell men how to chastise their wives by various means, not even vice versa.

    I fail to understand, how a book whose few stories are repetitions of OT stuff, & much of whose content is hatred, incessant belittling & disparagement of various sorts of unbelievers in the beginning & an urge to fight everyone in the latter part can be some sort of “condensed essence of all faiths!” 🙂

    If this is indeed condensed essence, then surely its an insult to other religions! 😉

    Just for a simple comparison, the Quran says that believers are the “best of peoples” & unbelievers the “worst of creatures,”.

    008.055
    Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.

    “Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book (Christians & Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein for ever. They are the worst of creatures.” (98.6)

    Allah forgets that many non believers have led utterly blameless lives, devoted to their spouse, children, done good for the world etc! He also forgets that there are many holy books in the world, making similar & contradictory claims, & that anyone might find it difficult to believe in such unprovable & contradictory claims.

    However, those who believe are the “best of peoples,” (3:110) 😉

    The Quran, in most of its contents, is filled with such hate speech, later with verses of urging to war & violence.

    As for context, why is so much of the context, war, war, more war, killing others, forcible conversions & idol smashings?

    I don’t find Jesus or Buddha’s life to be filled with incessant war & violence-nor is such war to be expected in the region of Arabia then, as they clearly allowed conversions to Christianity(re Waraqa), interfaith marriage(re Kaab’s parents), had 360 gods & no previous religion inspired wars.

    Even in the first few surahs, where there is no war, there is hate speech against polytheists, Jews & other unbelievers, calling them the “worst of creatures.”

    Yes, there are some smatterings of good stuff but that can be found in all other texts as well! In the Bible, there are multiple exhortations to love others, turn the other cheek etc, in the Buddhist Tripitakas, there are also innumerable such stuff(& no incessant war), in the 19th century Bahai faith which I gave you a link earlier, I have found such stuff also, in the Hindu Vedas, the list is endless…

    What smug arrogance of Muslims to feel that the Quran, with its hate verses in the beginning, & war call in the end, is some condensed essence of all these faiths! 🙂

    I don’t even need to read the Christian websites to know anything about Islam, besides Christians aren’t the only world group which disliked Islam. Most people have suffered due to Islam, they have read the texts like I did, & come to a similar conclusion.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    You have carefully or ignorantly avoided the chronology of the Islamisation of Persia, which was only brought about by the corruption of the early Islamic religion by your own Persian converts to Islam, You try to back up your view of the early life of the Prophet by quoting from Sirah, which from the viewpoint of a modern educated person is full of corruptions, lies and nonsense, just as are the Hadith.

    What is chronology of Persia’s Islamization? Even the Fezana Institute doesn’t say much about it, except that Muslims came not only to conquer, but also to spread their faith, which was done by making life difficult for Zoroastrians. Then it mentions the ways how life was made difficult-via temple smashings, prisoners of war being converted etc!

    The only thing it says is that, under the first four Caliphs, Iran was majority Zoroastrian, which you again desperate to believe, take as an indication of “tolerance”.

    But even with intolerance, conversion of millions takes time.

    Besides, what is so noble about the jizya taxes,which even your Quran speaks about? Its a matter of humiliation, inequal status.

    Did the pre Islamic Jews of Arabia have to pay jizya to their pagan majority? Nope.(No wonder they fought against Muslims, which sought to reduce them to second class citizens, from their previous equality 😉 )

    Did Jews & Zoroastrians in India pay jizya to the Hindu\Buddhist folks? Nope.

    Muslims who live in the West complain enough of some “discrimination”, how would they like to pay jizya or some similar offensive tax indicative of different status?

    You are carefull to not admit your error in the comparison of the chronology of Al Andalus and the period of the Muslim take over of Persia.

    My error? What is that? You seem to think that Persia’s remaining majority Zoroastrian at the begining is a sign of tolerance, but the sheer impossibility of converting millions would make that obvious.

    Earlier in this thread draymusa questioned your fluency in Arabic, I now have to question your understanding of Al Quran in the proper historical context, your knowledge of Islam in History and even your knowledge of what you call your Persian Cultural Heritage.

    I can only laugh if people question my fluency or understanding of events, what else to expect of people brainwashed by the Quran? 🙂

    The historical context of al Quran is what? A faith emerging in a region of many faiths like paganisms, Jews, Christian converts, none fighting over religion, to incessant inter religious wars. Its context is hate speech in the beginning & loads of inter faith battles in the end!

    Why does a faith need to fight everyone? Especially in a land where so many religions had previously co existed happily?

    Islam in history too is it immediately attacking loads of others, charging them jizya & making them convert. Why can’t it start by winning over hearts of many, like how Buddhism spread from India to China, or how Christianity spread for three & a half centuries till Constantine?

    My Persian cultural heritage- obviously you are desperate to protect your faith, by shutting your eyes to the Quran’s flaws & blaming all on hadiths-well re read the Quran.

    It wasn’t us Persians who wrote in all the hate filled verses towards unbelievers! It wasn’t us who taught wife beating, who wrote that unbelievers are the worst of creatures. The Quranic verses of hate are present on practically every page, none of which are written in by us.

    Its sad that you’ll blame the victim-the poor nation like Persia conquered by Muslims, rather than the oppressors-the Muslims, who conquered us.

    Its not like we accepted Islam like the Chinese accepted Buddhism, through plain missionaries, someone brutally conquered us.

    Most of all I question your reasons for posting on this site? You will never change Islam from the outside, especially after having given up your faith.

    I don’t think Islam can be very much changed, not through hadith rejection certainly, coz there are enough unpleasant verses. Imagine a super successful businesswoman like Khadija’s financial witness in financial matters being half a man’s? 😉

    Even in context, Islam sounds unpleasant & regressive. The only thing which seems to
    to make Islam better is ignorance\rejection of it. Before Islam, Melayu women did all get full inheritance, had full economic participation, the regions were tolerant etc.

    Now in little spots of Indonesia & Malaysia, such inequalities have sprouted.

    You have a lot of hatred girl, better that you seek a therapist rather than trying to spread your disinformation on the internet

    Oh no, there is indeed nothing wrong with me, I don’t lash, bomb, kill, mutilate etc! 😉

    If there is indeed therapy to be sought, it should be mass therapy of Muslims, whether hadith rejectors or hadith acceptors.

    If the Quran had been a book like Jain texts, like Neale Donald Walsh’s Conversations with God or even like the NT, there would be great hope there.

    Unfortunately, much of it is hate speech in the first half, descriptions of how “unbelievers” will burn & suffer, what vile beasts they are, & exhortations to fight everyone else in the end.

    The Quranists would be reformers from withing, amuse me no end, for I doubt they can turn the pages of the Quran without seeing hate filled verses towards everyone, & absurd superstitions.

    They dislike hadith superstitions, but what are jinns? How can they help Sulaiman build castles? Where are these invisible ghosts in our world today, as the Quran claims. This jinn mythology was ramapant in pre Islamic Arabia, Muhammad conveniently included these in his religion.

    A Saudi family has sued a jinn for harassing them. Can you blame them, as a Quranist?

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/13/saudia.arabia.genie.suit/index.html

    Nor can I blame Saudis(or others) who seeing the verses of hate on every page of the Quran, learing how non believers are the “worst creatures” & Muslims the “best of people” & how fighting becomes obligatory on Muslims at the slightest provocation, decided to either ill treat non believers or actually take up arms against them.

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