Female Circumcision

Aug 31st, 2006, in News, Society, by

The Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims.

H. Amidhan of the MUI, speaking in Banjarmasin, said that his august organisation had no problems with female circumcision, because it was a duty for Muslims, was safe and did not cause any health problems for those who underwent it.

Circumcision is especially meant to be done for a Muslim, because circumcision not only cleans the filth from the genitals but is a requirement for every Muslim, and it also helps to contribute to a child’s growth.

From the time of Abraham until that of Muhammad circumcision had been done, for both boys and girls, and it had become a part of the culture of the Muslim world, a part that could not be left behind. Those who said that circumcision caused harm had to prove their case, he said. Logic was then applied to justifying the practice, known often as female genital mutilation (FGM) or female genital cutting (FGC).

If there are those who say that circumcision causes damage or hampers reproduction then I think they have made it up. The proof is that there has been significant growth in the population of Indonesia and most Indonesians are Muslims who have been circumcised.

Not done he went on to say that circumcision was beneficial to Muslims, both men and women, because it removed the filth from the genital area. Islam approved of circumcision, for men and women again, provided it was done in the right way.

Because a Muslim must not pray unless he is clean and one way of being clean is to be circumcised.

Amidhan was not the only one of this opinion. Syamsuddin Hasan, from the Majelis Wilayah Korps Alumni Himpunan Mahasiswa Islam (KAHMI) in South Kalimantan agreed that female circumcision must not be forbidden by the authorities.

I fear that the attempt to ban it [female circumcision] is part of the mission of a certain group who deliberately use the health excuse, to the point where Muslim women will not be clean because they haven’t been circumcised, so they can’t pray in the correct way.

He advised Muslims who work in the health field to be on their guard and not co-operate in the effort to stamp out female circumcision.

September 28th. A study in six cities, Padang (West Sumatra), Serang (Banten), Bandung (West Java), Sumenep (Madura, East Java), Makassar (South Sulawesi), and Kutai Kartanegara (East Kalimantan), has shown that 90% of Indonesian women are circumcized.

Doctor Rachmat Sentika of a hospital Child Protection Unit and Dr Zaitunah Subhan of the religious section of the ministry for womens’ empowerment said that they had met with the MUI last week and been informed that the Department of Health must not try to forbid the practice. Sentika said that the MUI did object to the removal of the clitoris but that the “opening” of the clitoris was acceptable and that health professionals should be taught how to do it properly.

January 20th 2008. New York Times article saying 96% of Indonesian girls have undergone some type of circumcision. Here.


235 Comments on “Female Circumcision”

  1. Lairedion says:

    @ Patrick,

    So your joke on circumcising elephants was actually a serious attempt trying to be funny? I was thinking you were taking the piss.

  2. Andy says:

    Love a pribumi hey AAB, when you start to love others others may love your people in return. In the meantime choke on your warm soapy ‘teh botol’

  3. Patrick says:

    @ Lairedion – I see your back! YAWN! Still taking yourself seriously? YAWN?

  4. Purba Negoro says:

    Andy-
    such vile racist xenophobia. Monkeys even?

    Reminiscent of your White Australia Policy?

    Personally- I take no notice- hot and bluster air from a fool. We’re used to it having Australia as a neighbour.

    Idiots are everywhere- unfortunately Australia seems to have been a haven for them under their Imperial puppet Howard.
    Such bitter blind hatred can only be cause by love spurned.

    You really did love her a lot didn’t you?
    Why really did you break up? Was it religion?
    Why was it so hard for you or her to convert?

  5. Andy says:

    Hey Purba you have said far worse racist comments than mine. No Indonesian ever has the right to call any bule racist. The fact that you can ..migrate, buy land and business, get centrelink benefits, study etc in my land when I can’t in yours means you have only one choice…shut up! Or risk being once again known as an Indonesian munafik which there are millions of.

  6. Andy says:

    Purba can you address the points rather than just hurling racist abuse around.

    Point 1. You make allegations of racism because you can’t carry a 35 kg suitcase onto a plane. That is an international rule. He was doing his job. Next thing you can’t just throw a bribe to him the way you can back home. See corruption is frowned upon in fair, just countries. But you wouldn’t know would you. So keep playing the race card. You were in our country, if you don’t like the rules don’t come back. When I left Jakarta for the last time, I also carried a 35 kg bag as I was returning home with heaps of gear I collected over 4 years. I had to pay nearly 200 USD in excess. I didn’t try for the bribe, probably could have but have far too many morals to do that.

    Point 2. Your allegations of racism don’t stack up. Tell my how they can if a baggage search must be recorded and a body search is subject to strict conditions. Passengers have the right to refuse a body search. Go look it up if you don’t believe me. In Indonesia Schapelle Corby’s baggage search wasn’t recorded because they didn’t have a tape on hand. A clear breach of rules even in Indonesia. So it was her word against theirs. No bule ever wins in that case. I know of many bules who have been taken to rooms and been interrogated for no reason unlawfully and even a couple who have been beaten. Police (and immigration) brutality is common in Indonesia.

  7. Hugh7 says:

    Patrick: “@ Hugh – The joke works well enough with most people who have heard it and if you don’t get it your obviously English!” I get it, I just don’t think it’s new or funny. And don’t call me English! (But the English gave us the Goons, Monty Python, Blackadder, The Office, Red Dwarf, The Young Ones… so who says they’re humourless?)

  8. jill333 says:

    I have been with a few Indonesian girls who have been circumcised, and it is nothing like the Western femonazis make it out to be. As a matter of a fact, it looks lot cleaner and trimmer than some beefsteak protruding through the black forest like two slabs of raw meat. It’s actually not such a bad thing.

    Every feminist I have ever met is fully supportive of male circumcision. They often claim it is necessary for hygiene. Yet, when the topic of female circumcision comes up, they are disgusted. I say circumcise them. Continue to do so until they have the same attitude towards male circumcision as they do female circumcision.

  9. Jill333 says:

    Erica says:

    >It says nothing in the Koran about FGM and forcing it on women is disgusting and should be punishable by law because it is sexual assault.

    This is what I was saying earlier. I bet she doesn’t view male circumcision the same, way. Which it is. She probably had her own sons circumcised. At the very least she isn’t as disgusted by it.

    I really can’t stand the hypocrisy of the feminist.

  10. ashley says:

    I am so glad to be in America, this is sick and wrong. Now I understand why everyone wants to come to America. Now I will not judge other cultures, I would be nuts too if I lived in another country and had demented creepy people surrounding me….sick! Men in other countries need to get a life and stop being womenizers. Freaks!

  11. Purba Negoro says:

    Ashley grow up.
    It does not occur here.
    Furthermore- your nation spends millions of dollars every year on women surgically enhancing or correcting their pudenda and vulva- so do not throw stones if you live in glass house.

    Honour killing, forced marriage, marriage to first cousins and restrictive dress codes for women DOES NOT EXIST IN INDONESIA.

    Your own US Department of State has plenty of figures and research proving FGM is non existent in Indonesia.

    http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10102.htm

    “Clitoridotomy” (which is also called “hoodectomy” as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition: in fact, there is no genuine approval for this,

    http://www.singaporemoms.com/parenting/FGM

    Italian obgyn:

    “These mothers believe they are doing something good for their children,” Guarenti, a native of Italy, told me. “For our culture that is not easily understandable. To judge them harshly is to isolate them. You cannot make change that way.” (http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/culture-society/3142-cutting-tradition-female-circumcision-indonesia.html)

  12. Oigal says:

    “restrictive dress codes for women DOES NOT EXIST IN INDONESIA”

    Not reading the papers lately PN.. Perhaps you missed the introduction of the introduction of the bylaws enforcing the wearing of the Jilbab in West Sumatra, West Java, Banten, South Sulawesi etc etc.. Of course we could mention Aceh with its religious (?) police arresting and harrassing women for supposed dress code offences.

    Marriage to close relatives does not exist?? Been awhile since you out in the villages hey?
    Even for a troll, your references are just plain silly as they have nothing to do with the point you are trying so feebly to make.

    The sad part is some here may actually believe you are Indonesian and thats a shame with your continual, racist, ignorant rants by which you demean yourself and is an insult to Indonesians.

    Trouble is you don’t even make a good expat troll as an alternative as your assertions as so easily discredited time and again. Yikes.. I can’t believe I am saying this but at least ASSMAD trolled with some basic trueisms and demonstrated some knowledge on the subjects on which he/she trolled (granted the conclusions he draw from those facts were usually obnoxious).

  13. Purba Negoro says:

    Oigal;,
    again with your odious vastly vacuous Australian rubbish.

    Such a pity you convicts never bothered mastering the language of English before butchering it.

    But of course rampant Islamophobia, innuendo bigotry and racism against Muslims and those aside from non white industrious faithful lickspittle Chinamen is acceptable?

    Go shove it. You plebs type are not welcome here.
    We Javanese will never bow nor scrape to our inferiors no matter their skin colour- the days of the Dutch are over.
    Learn to love your correct station, bule- our equal and pembantu (in the connotation of asisten not maid).

  14. Wazir Ahmad says:

    I don’t understand how anybody can claim that Islamic female circumcision (by removing the clitoral hood or prepuce) can reduce female sexual desire. My wife is circumcised properly (she has her clitoral foreskin removed) and she enjoys sex immensely, particularly oral sex where the tongue directly touches her cit. In fact she enjoys multiple orgasms. The proper Islamic procedure I am sure offers a good many benefits for the fairer sex. In fact, western women have also realised this and this procedure known as hoodectomy is gaining immense popularity as a sex enhancement procedure among western women. Besides it is also very clean as it prevents accumulation of foul smelling smegma beneath the hood of the clitoris. The smegma in an uncircumcised clitoris can not only cause diseases such as urinary tract infections, but also frequent irritations which could lead to sensitivity and masturbation resulting in nymphomania. A properly circumcised woman on the other hand is in control of the situation and could get aroused whenever she needs.

    Ahmad

  15. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Wazir Ahmad,

    Your excuses for the practice of female circumcision are to be quite honest mind numbingly idiotic.

    What we are talking about here is the forced circumcision of young children who are given no say in the matter! It is totally against their rights as children and is not an acceptable practice in any way shape or form! It is not mandated in any form in Al Quran, and is a sick and barbaric custom from pre-islamic days which is only supported in fabricated and corrupt hadith.

    How you can even support your argument for it by citing your wifes sexual enjoyment is beyond me, and using hoodectomy as an excuse is just as bad. These western women as you call them are doing this procedure out of choice and not having it forced upon them. As to your wifes sexual pleasure, do you think she would enjoy sex if she had no clitoris at all which is what happens in some forms of this practice.

    People like you sicken me, your idiotic arguments for justification of practices which Allah does not prescribe are what gives the Deen of Islam such a bad name.

  16. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamualaikum Wazir Ahmad

    Maybe it will be beneficial for all moslem if you could attach pictures of your spouse’s circumcised clitoris to the ulamas so they know how deep to cut. Just a suggestion. Pictures with showing the face, of course.

    Wasalam.

  17. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    I mean Pictures without showing the face, of course.

  18. Burung Koel says:

    I have been with a few Indonesian girls who have been circumcised

    @ jill333 – News flash – they were guys.

    My wife is circumcised properly (she has her clitoral foreskin removed) and she enjoys sex immensely, particularly oral sex where the tongue directly touches her cit. In fact she enjoys multiple orgasms.

    @ Wazir Ahmad – Well, it saves you the bother of looking for the ‘cit’ (sic), too. Of course, on the other hand her orgasms could be faked to make sure you hurry up and get off.

    In fact, western women have also realised this and this procedure known as hoodectomy is gaining immense popularity as a sex enhancement procedure among western women.

    It’s a bit different when the woman actually has a choice in the matter. I’d dispute your use of the word ‘immense’.

    Besides it is also very clean as it prevents accumulation of foul smelling smegma beneath the hood of the clitoris. The smegma in an uncircumcised clitoris can not only cause diseases such as urinary tract infections, but also frequent irritations which could lead to sensitivity and masturbation resulting in nymphomania.

    Now we’re in Disneyland. But I guess you might hang out with women who don’t bathe very often. And it’s a well known medical fact that urinary tract infections lead to masturbation. It’s in all the textbooks. You might want to look up ‘nymphomania’ while you’re there.

    In summary – some men want their women circumcised for (a) appearance, (b) ease of access, (c) they’re scared of women’s sexuality and (c) to control them from becoming ‘nymphomaniacs’.

    On the other hand, women want to be circumcised because … er, well …

  19. Ryuken says:

    Mohammed Khafi:

    What we are talking about here is the forced circumcision of young children who are given no say in the matter!

    Boys are circumcised without any say in the matter, babies are born without any say in the matter, they (babies) are suckled without any say in the matter, toddler were taught to walk, talk and read without any say in the matter, children are sent to school without any say in the matter, you were created without any say in the matter, you were born in a certain country without any say in the matter, you were born to a certain family without any say in the matter. Should I continue?

    If they were given a choice in the matter, I dare say a large proportion of children wouldn’t want to go to school!

    It is the parents’ rights (and obligations) to make certain decisions for their young children which they deem proper and correct. That’s part of parenthood, don’t you think?

    Please don’t go on saying that FGC is not in the Qur’an, as we have another discussion about Qur’an only vs Qur’an & Hadith going on in another thread. I only responded to your comment because I disagree with your freewill argument, and that I thought it had went somewhat overboard.

  20. schmerly says:

    PB follow this link: http://www.viiphoto.com/showstory.php?nID=676 and then tell me it doesn’t happen.

  21. schmerly says:

    PM with your droning rhetoric against the west I believe your a closet communist.

  22. schmerly says:

    These comments are for this xenophobic. Purba Negoro

  23. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Ryuken you said:

    Boys are circumcised without any say in the matter, babies are born without any say in the matter, they (babies) are suckled without any say in the matter, toddler were taught to walk, talk and read without any say in the matter, children are sent to school without any say in the matter, you were created without any say in the matter, you were born in a certain country without any say in the matter, you were born to a certain family without any say in the matter. Should I continue?

    I would suggest that you don’t continue, as you are making yourself look ridiculous. How can you possible compare forced circumcision, with being born, suckling a child, raising children to be educated and cared for, or being born in a certain country or family? You should be ashamed of yourself!

    You continued:

    It is the parents’ rights (and obligations) to make certain decisions for their young children which they deem proper and correct. That’s part of parenthood, don’t you think?

    Yes, with regard to bring up children in a caring and nurturing environment, but certainly circumcision doesn’t fall into that category!

    You finally said:

    Please don’t go on saying that FGC is not in the Qur’an, as we have another discussion about Qur’an only vs Qur’an & Hadith going on in another thread. I only responded to your comment because I disagree with your freewill argument, and that I thought it had went somewhat overboard.

    No please, lets go on with this point. Bearing in mind that Allah says Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, where exactly does it say in Al Quran, that parents have an obligation to circumcise their children, either male or female?

  24. schmerly says:

    Has no one got the guts to answer Mohammed Khafi ??

  25. Barry Prima says:

    How can you possible compare forced circumcision, with being born, suckling a child, raising children to be educated and cared for, or being born in a certain country or family? You should be ashamed of yourself!

    You should be ashamed you can’t even see the basic analogy which is: We are all forced into circumstances not of our choosing and to do things we don’t want to as children, does that mean those things are wrong, that is the question?

    Well I kind of noticed that you’re not very smart at allegory and reading the meaning behind the outward and express meaning of things …alternatively you are very smart at it, but not smart enough that your agenda is not clear to the smarter Muslims.

    The thing is your ideas are very western, very modern and very illusionary; and very bible belt like…a western intellectual who knows Islam will spot you very easily!
    A well meaning idealist Kampung Muslim who is half educated would be very susceptible to you, especially if he has no good role models. I think you know this very well!
    Circumcision only hurts for a very short time anyway, it is not something that scars a human being for life is it..!!

    Yes, with regard to bring up children in a caring and nurturing environment, but certainly circumcision doesn’t fall into that category!

    Caring and nurturing is exactly what circumcision is, in the psycho/spiritual understanding of a human being in the traditional world as he is understood to be participating in a reality which is invisible and visible to him, in which he is responding to both actively and passively.

    Bearing in mind that Allah says Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed.

    If it was so fully detailed why didn’t it ban circumcision, (which you say is evil) especially as it was a common practice esp of the Jews??? Tool!

    It is totally against their rights as children and is not an acceptable practice in any way shape or form

    In you explanation of the quran as complete perfect and fully detailed it there a charter on human rights that says it is against their human rights…no!
    THIS IS YOU DEFINITION OF HUMAN RIGHTS (YOU ARE A HITLER IN THE MAKING)…its completely within the rights of parents to circumcise their boys in every country I know.

    How you can even support your argument for it by citing your wifes sexual enjoyment is beyond me.

    The argument is that in his experience it has not effected detrimentally the sexual enjoyment of women, which is the main argument of anti fc…a lot of simple things are beyond you Khafi.
    Btw bro Oral sex is very unislamic….gross..talking about you and your wife who are both Muslims doing it in public is also gross. Don’t act like the Jahiliya people bros and sistas..well at least have rasa malu..shame is the source of all virtue as Mencius said!

    Your idiotic arguments for justification of practices which Allah does not prescribe are what gives the Deen of Islam such a bad name.

    It is you who claim all the Ulemas are corrupt and evil and most of us are their tools, who does that .You are the ne who continually fails to understand the argument someone is making,you bible belt,evengelical tool in disguise.If it walks like a duck,talks like a duck.it must be duck..

    But Al Quran clearly states that the women to be married are the mothers of orphans in times of war..

    It is so clear that no one important has reached that conclusion for 1400 years…so now you have the right one, based on an English translation?

    because I want the Muslim Ummah to return to Allah’s teaching, because I interpret Al Quran to be something good, to bring equality, understanding, knowledge, tolerance and maybe a little love and understanding into this world which is sorely in need of it?

    Ho ho ho,,,you want to bring understanding when you don’t understand the quran in its own language and thus terms,,you want to talk advanced mathematics when you cant do the times table..in every other field of enquiry you would be a laughing stock.….you want to interpret Al quran for us all when you cant speak Arabic, nor do you feel the need to learn from under someone who does…you claim all the ulemas are wrong and evil and we are all brainwashed AND THEN SAY you want to spread love ?

    You are truly truly arrogant. You want to make Islam into something it will never be, it will never ever fit into western post renaissance ideas of freedom, equality knowledge or tolerance as these are all based on false perception reality according to the traditional worldview.

    I fail to find any health justification in this primitive practice.

    Now that a really really stupid statement, and not very good line of argument is it..keep reading..

    circumcision is interpreted from the word ‘Qulub’ in Qur’an, which has to be ‘opened’ so that Moslems could receive all the messages from God. Qulub is ‘Qolbu’, which is the inner heart. You read the Qur’an with heart. The translation from Qulub to foreskin is somehow….not quite right.

    Good point parvita, the reasons why there is ritual in the world is that rituals act as the point of transformation from one state of being into another, or they at least open the door to a transformation.

    This is what is called initiation, that is why initiation is closely guarded and usually passed down by blood and lifetime bonds as deviation in small aspects of it, can create huge problems…female genital mutilation is an example of this.
    That’s what all rituals in islam and any other religion are about, they are connected to aspects of the self which are usually outside the reach of the rational mind.
    Rituals cannot be relied to kept alive by books, or only in books…in fact they are often never written down for obvious reasons.

    You mentioned reading the quran with the inner heart…hmm that won’t go down with Khaf who has argued that the quran is simple and has no inner meaning. (even though he doesn’t speak Arabic)

    If the reason is health, well, the back of your ear sometimes is not being thoroughly soaped, so does that mean that you should cut your ear?

    After an accidental moment of greatness you say this….really stupid, no wonder you fall for false prophets like Khafi, you just soap it silly…removing the foreskin is like removing a big fat pimple on your face (well not exactly)..but I hope you get the analogy especially as a woman…

    And FYI, guys who are not circumsized have more sensitivity during sex than those who are circumsized. They enjoy sex more. Can tell this because I’m a woman So why throw what’s given by God when everything He created have its purpose?

    hmm…did you do a survey after sampling circum and uncircumcised men, jew and gentile? Even then you would have to had a large sample to make the study scientifically even a little credible..
    I guess only a man who was uncircumcised and then circumcised could say really, not a woman!
    Parvit as woman you should agree that health hand spiritual benefits should be more important than marginally more pleasure in sex…right?

    areas, nerve filled areas which God has given us to make the act of sex pleasurable.

    Its still pleasurable to me and I’m circumcised. I assume you are too Khaf (unless you are a bible belt missionary)..if you’re not getting pleasure out of it ,don’t blame it on your parents for circumcising you.

    Would you want to cut off your lips to improve your oral hygeine? it would certainly make cleaning your teeth easier. How about cutting of your nose to make nasal hygiene and cleanliness eaier?

    Shit argument again, if you cut your lips it would effect the rest of your body and immune system, digestion etc etc, if you cut your nose you’d be be dead because you cant breath…properbly..
    Circumcision doesn’t obviously effect anything, and comes with many health benefits..
    It is admitted by all research that has looked into it that HIV transmission is hugely reduced (50%) or more by circumcision!
    That’s just one example.

    Finally returning to your Quran is complete and detailed argument

    (please not all observers if you copy and paste any of khafs copy and paste quotes, they all lead you to anti Islam/evangelical websites or those sites that support his agenda…these ayats are also on muslim websites everywhere too, but they never show up ,Strange huh!)

    The Quran says that it is alkitaba mufassalan..this is taken from the root fasala .which means to separate into right and wrong or yin and yang, or to use another term from the quran it is an al furqan, which means discernment.
    Any discernment of things into right and wrong must take into account context, the quran sometimes provides the context itself, but in others it doesn’t. It does however provide principles, from which a process of discernment can take place that can be according to context. This I why we have ijtihad and secondary sources (hadith as well as other things .from which we can reach a decision.
    Both the terms complete and detailed themselves are contextual and relative, not absolute..as I said before in my other argument with khaf in Arabic everything is defined by its relationship to everything else, that is what tawhid means unity of everything in the created world…
    Khafi even you said that by complete it means everything related to your day to day life and saving you soul…as I mentioned before there are lots of things that are harmful to the soul that the quran mentions nothing about..it doesn’t even say anything about something considered to be so important as circumcision! Yet it prohibits some other things that are trivial in comparison!
    Besides this is a blatant contradiction to many other ayats in the quran,the ones that come to mind to me immediately are :

    God’s [alone] is the knowledge of the hidden reality of the heavens and the earth.

    Nor shall they compass of His knowledge except as He willeth.(Ayatul Qursi)

    Now lets take one the ayats you have quoted on many occasions that contradicts it :

    We have left out nothing in this Book.

    At least please quote the whole ayat to provide context.

    And there is not an animal moving in the earth nor a bird flying on its wings, but they are a nation like you; We have left out nothing in this Book.

    The words important here are nothing(its more accurate to say anything) and `the book’
    AL kitab:`the ‘ book…not this book..
    So what is this `The Book’ in this context???
    Is it exclusively the Quran as a textbook, the one revealed to Muhammad (s.a.w)? It cant be because it also refers to the Torah and other scriptures as `the book’ too, it also calls the Jews and Christians as people of the book :Ahli kitab’
    So we must find a definition of al kitab that is transcendent, to encompass all the ways it used in the quran?

    So what is meant by the term `Al kitab’??????

    The term can only mean very clearly especially in this sentence to the uncreated Quran or Al kitab ,which existed from the beginning and one from which all revelations stem, it could be said the world is a revelation and a Kitab, in english we would say book of life..
    The Ayat gives us a good suggestion to this as it is part of a Surah that is about the unity of created things in the universe (specifically man and the animals)

    The verse following this also supports this view…

    Those who reject our proofs are deaf and dumb, in total darkness. Whomever GOD wills, He sends astray, and whomever He wills, He leads in a straight path.

    In fact the whole surah is a commentary about the theme of gods ayats in the world, the interdependent nature of things…about the dependence of the created things on each other and on Allah (Swt).

    All I can say Khafi is that whatever Bible College you went to is piss poor.

    Ps My last commentary on these ayats, I’m not too clear about this, I usually check any conclusions I see if they are in conformity to great scholars or mystics I admire such as Ibn Arabi, Jallani etc, as they are much wiser than me but I didn’t this time, due to lack of time.
    However the concept of uncreated Quran is accepted my most Muslims, and the idea of Al-Kitab as being written on a tablet preserved in heaven is in the Quran itself.
    Ie: Al Kitab=the archetypal kitab (or the mother of the book as it is called) of which the revealed Quran is a replication.

  26. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Mr Barry,

    Another rambling discourse, which attempts to blow a smoke screen over the discussion.

  27. Barry Prima says:

    Another rambling discourse, which attempts to blow a smoke screen over the discussion.

    Another complete evasion of a response, by a man who has no answers!

    You think you pathetic copy and paste jobs would remain unexposed forever, the lunacy of man who cant speak arabic trying to teach others what the quran says WOULD NOT BECOME apparent to men of understanding?

    Smokescreen over the issue?

    Most of my post is about circumcision, and the lame attempts by you to argue against it,..a man who says he can see no health benefits, when it is common scientific knowledge that circumcision reduces the transmission of aids to a huge degree is is a smokescreen, is very evidently blind…..and that just for a start…there are lots of other benefits, spiritual and health wise.

  28. Hugh7 says:

    Barry Prima: “Circumcision only hurts for a very short time anyway, it is not something that scars a human being for life is it..!!”
    Yes, that is exactly what it is. It hurts (excruciatingly) not only during the operation, but for two weeks after, whenever urine gets in the wound.

    “We are all forced into circumstances not of our choosing and to do things we don’t want to as children, does that mean those things are wrong, that is the question?”
    The passive voice covers the fact that being born, being suckled, being educated are inevitable or essential, but having the most sensitive part of one’s genitals cut off is neither. Someone else chooses to do it to us. They could equally choose not to, and in most of the world, they don’t even consider it.

    “its completely within the rights of parents to circumcise their boys in every country I know.”
    Let me introduce you to Finland, South Africa and Sweden, where circumcision is restricted. You’re right that it’s not outlawed anywhere – yet – but female genital cutting is in many countries, which also have gender equality laws. When this anomaly is resolved, you can be sure it won’t be by permitting FGC. It is also anomalous that no other non-renewable part of the infant body may be cut off for any reason except pressing medical need.

    “removing the foreskin is like removing a big fat pimple on your face (well not exactly)”
    A big fat pimple that every male is born with?

    “I guess only a man who was uncircumcised and then circumcised could say really, not a woman!”
    Men who have been circumcised in adulthood (other than those who chose to be) compare the difference to going colour-blind.

    “It is admitted by all research that has looked into it that HIV transmission is hugely reduced (50%) or more by circumcision!”
    Not so. Three trials (by circumcision advocates, with several major flaws) found redutions of up to 40%, but in six African countries the HIV rate is higher among circumcised men than non-circumcised. (And isn’t it great how medicine suddenly gets wheeled into a religious debate, and vice-versa! Circumcision is a very peculiar topic in this regard.)

  29. Barry Prima says:

    Yes, that is exactly what it is. It hurts (excruciatingly) not only during the operation, but for two weeks after, whenever urine gets in the wound.

    Whats two weeks, in the context of lifetime I should know I’m circumcised too!! Like I said its not something that scars someone for life.

    Someone else chooses to do it to us. They could equally choose not to, and in most of the world, they don’t even consider it.

    We don’t care if most of the world do it or not, they can do what they want, they have their customs we have ours, were not circumcising non muslim children are we?

    Circumcision is tied to a particular concept of human dignity and religious way of life, it’s an act of ritual. Are you going to argue we should not do religion to our children too as it arguably not necessary…depends on what you mean necessary…it is necessary in our way of life..to explain why we do it would lead to me going into a lot more depth…but the argument hasn’t even reached that point yet.

    A penis is a penis and nothing else I am using something called analogy which is not meant to be exact, just more accurate than the previous one used..have you got one better?

    Men who have been circumcised in adulthood (other than those who chose to be) compare the difference to going colour-blind.

    All my muslim convert friends say yes it hurts for a while and some say there is less sensitivity during sex..but nothing too noticeable..
    a muslim or jewish convert is your best commentator on this fact.
    As for FC personally I don’t know any women who are circumcised..in the uk muslim community (diverse as ii is) apart from the african muslims…it is something considered unislamic and women are appalled to hear that it is done in the name of islam. I don’t really know much about this that why I haven’t commented on it. In indonesia I never came across it either, but there again it’s not something that ever asked about either.

    Three trials (by circumcision advocates, with several major flaws) found redutions of up to 40%, but in six African countries the HIV rate is higher among circumcised men than non-circumcised. (And isn’t it great how medicine suddenly gets wheeled into a religious debate, and vice-versa! Circumcision is a very peculiar topic in this regard.)

    References please I can’t say I’m an expert on this matter (id doubt you are) but I did have to do some research a few years ago on this and read some major medical reports from journals that said that their is uniformity in the opinion of the medical establishment that circumcision was a very helpful step in the reduction of transmission rates of HIV.

    Religion arguably involves everything, well especially circumcision as its a religious practise identified with certain religions and cultures (not just semitic, but aborigines and others).

  30. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Barry Prima

    Your mouth is spitting out islamic filths which are not compatible to our culture. I suggest you circumcise your lip.

Comment on “Female Circumcision”.

RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-20
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact