Female Circumcision
Aug 31st, 2006, in News, Society, by PatungThe Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims.
H. Amidhan of the MUI, speaking in Banjarmasin, said that his august organisation had no problems with female circumcision, because it was a duty for Muslims, was safe and did not cause any health problems for those who underwent it.
Circumcision is especially meant to be done for a Muslim, because circumcision not only cleans the filth from the genitals but is a requirement for every Muslim, and it also helps to contribute to a child’s growth.
From the time of Abraham until that of Muhammad circumcision had been done, for both boys and girls, and it had become a part of the culture of the Muslim world, a part that could not be left behind. Those who said that circumcision caused harm had to prove their case, he said. Logic was then applied to justifying the practice, known often as female genital mutilation (FGM) or female genital cutting (FGC).
If there are those who say that circumcision causes damage or hampers reproduction then I think they have made it up. The proof is that there has been significant growth in the population of Indonesia and most Indonesians are Muslims who have been circumcised.
Not done he went on to say that circumcision was beneficial to Muslims, both men and women, because it removed the filth from the genital area. Islam approved of circumcision, for men and women again, provided it was done in the right way.
Because a Muslim must not pray unless he is clean and one way of being clean is to be circumcised.
Amidhan was not the only one of this opinion. Syamsuddin Hasan, from the Majelis Wilayah Korps Alumni Himpunan Mahasiswa Islam (KAHMI) in South Kalimantan agreed that female circumcision must not be forbidden by the authorities.
I fear that the attempt to ban it [female circumcision] is part of the mission of a certain group who deliberately use the health excuse, to the point where Muslim women will not be clean because they haven’t been circumcised, so they can’t pray in the correct way.
He advised Muslims who work in the health field to be on their guard and not co-operate in the effort to stamp out female circumcision.
September 28th. A study in six cities, Padang (West Sumatra), Serang (Banten), Bandung (West Java), Sumenep (Madura, East Java), Makassar (South Sulawesi), and Kutai Kartanegara (East Kalimantan), has shown that 90% of Indonesian women are circumcized.
Doctor Rachmat Sentika of a hospital Child Protection Unit and Dr Zaitunah Subhan of the religious section of the ministry for womens’ empowerment said that they had met with the MUI last week and been informed that the Department of Health must not try to forbid the practice. Sentika said that the MUI did object to the removal of the clitoris but that the “opening” of the clitoris was acceptable and that health professionals should be taught how to do it properly.
January 20th 2008. New York Times article saying 96% of Indonesian girls have undergone some type of circumcision. Here.
235 Comments on “Female Circumcision”
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Robert says:
My wife is circumsized, she is from Malaysia and I am from England. Apparently her clitoral hood has been removed which is the mildest form of the proceedure, but I am unsure if any other part of the clitoris has been removed or cut in the process. What is clear though, is that she does not masturbate and has little sensitivity in her clitoris. I previously have gave her oral sex when we were first married, but as there seems to be little enjoyment from this, I no longer do. We do have sex occasionally and she gets wet and it is enjoyable for me, but she does not orgasm and it is more like a chore for her, and this is saddening to me. She even says to me to go find somebody else to have sex with, or find a second wife if I complain I don’t get it enough.
It is great to have a faithfull wife which I think is supposed to be the objective of this rediculous proceedure apart from cleanliness, but disturbing we can not enjoy each other the way I have intimately felt with other women who need sex. She wouldn’t have it any other way, as it is seen as the only way to go in islam and in her family traditions, sex is seen as unclean. She simply does not know what she is missing out on. We love each other and will probably stay together, but clearly if I need sex regularly, which I do, then it must be with somebody else, either an affair or another wife. I do not want that, I would prefer it to be with my wife and only 1 wife.
I can see why muslim men need up to 5 wives, so they can have sex with each one of them occasionally to be satisfied. Sex once a month with one wife is simply not enough. Also can see why many Muslim men also play around behind their wives backs, with little protest from their wives, because their wives don’t particularly care, so long as they still provide to the family, and there is little desire from the wife, so the man is free to get it else where.
Appart from cleanliness, it only makes sense that in islam men are circumsized to avoid sexually transmitted diseases when they sleep with other women behind their wives backs. Plenty of prostitutes available for men in most underdeveloped islamic countries where prostitution is usually a booming trade. I am not circumsized which increases my risk to contract STD’s if I were to sleep with other women, so maybe better in my case to get another wife…..?
I generally have no problems with people who are Islam and love my wife, but how can we stop this stupidity of Muslims feeling compelled to have this done to reduce sexual enjoyment for women? This is the only thing I have against islamic tradition as it can damage a normally functioning husband and wife relationship. In addition, it is not a must in islam, and is more so a cultural tradition for islamic people; not all islamic people have this done. Religion wise, I beleive people should be free to beleive in what ever they like, but this part of islamic tradition is completely wrong, and has serious effects on marriage and behavour of people in society, both men and women.
It is saddening that Muslims in some countries feel so compeled to do this to baby girls (removing of clit hood for bullsh*t reasons cleanliness). They are that determined, that after my wife agreeing not to have it done to our daughter, then her family still had it done behind my back whilst I was not around, I found out 3.5 years later!! So I am worried my daughter will be in the same situation with her husband in years to come, and will ultimately have an unfaithful husband or a husband that needs more than one wife.
I can only hope that in my daughters case only the clit hood was removed which seems to be the case, and nothing else was cut which may ruin her sexual desire. Some people say removing the clit hood actually increases sexual pleasure, so I can only hope this is the case for my daughter.
So beware all Western people planing on marrying a Muslim, either think twice, or get a complete understanding about these issues first prior to going through with the marriage…
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Ihaknt says:
Rob, that is very sad to hear about your life. Must be tough for you. Even more so about your daughter. I cant believe your wife even agreed not to tell you! But you are right, it’s not religious, it’s cultural. A disgusting one. Many of my muslim friends are not circumsised and do enjoy sexual relationship with their husband just as it’s naturally meant to be for human beings! This violation of basic rights makes me sick. As always, women become the victims of controlling men.
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Rob,
There is no religious justification in Al Quran for either male or female circumcision, the vast majority of muslim women I would believe are not circumcised. This procedure is abhorrent even in its mildest form being performed as it is on children who are given no choice in the issue.
But to get to your particular issue, if your wife was circumcised and the clitoral hood was removed, this should not stop her having a normal and happy sex life in most cases, excluding of course physiological damage.
Masturbation I don’t think is common amongst many asian women, it is seem as being somehow abnormal and distasteful despite the fact that in most of the rest of the world it is seen as natural.
The fact that your wife has no problem with dryness suggest that she is in a state of arousal despite the fact that she cannot reach orgasm. Ihaknt may be able to help me here, but I don’t think it is uncommon for a woman to be unable to reach orgasm even if not circumcised?
My wife is also circumcised, coming from a traditional family, it was two years before she experienced her first orgasm, even now after 10 years of marriage it doesn’t happen everytime we make love, but she says that it is not as important for her as it is for me, she can get pleasure just from the act of making love and being loved and an orgasm is just an added bonus.
I think you need to talk with your wife and discuss this , the fact that you said that she suggested that you find another wife because you complain as you said “I don’t get it enough” suggest to me that you are only looking for a solution for yourself and not for both of you as a couple!
Perhaps the problem is psycological rather than physiological? Maybe it is your attitude to sex coupled with your wifes hestitance to relax and enjoy it for what it is that is causing the problem?
Being Muslim does not mean that people don’t enjoy sex, you talk as if you are not Muslim whilst your wife is and you are blaming religion for a failure in your sex life. Have you considered it may also be this attitude to your faith which causes your wife problems. Religion here is seen as something serious and not to be taken lightly, if your wife is insecure in your relationship because of this it could also cause sexual problems resulting in less pleasure for her.
Please if you value your relationship with your wife and child look seriously to resolve you problems with your wife and do not be so eager to try and find excuses to take a second wife or have an affair.
Peace
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Ihaknt said:
As always, women become the victims of controlling men.
I have to disagree with you a little here Ihaknt, part of the problem is that the women give in to the men, they have to stand up and say “No more, we have rights of our own and we will stand up for them” a little like you yourself do sister!
Peace
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Teng says:
I have to disagree with you a little here Ihaknt, part of the problem is that the women give in to the men, they have to stand up and say “No more, we have rights of our own and we will stand up for them
If it were only that simple. Let’s be honest, in a lot of societies it is not possible for a woman to stand up that easily. In some African countries when you reject a circumcision you simply get stoned to death. You can hardly blame the women for that… for not “standing up”. Ikahnt is right about it anyway… it’s yet another means for barbaric men to control women. Maybe not the “light” version of circumcision, but the hardcore version sure is… it’s brutally cutting al means of sexual pleasure of the woman… that way she’ll never cheat (or even enjoy a sexual encounter)
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Ihaknt may be able to help me here, but I don’t think it is uncommon for a woman to be unable to reach orgasm even if not circumcised?
Mmmm, I dont know MK. I am not circumsised, and none of my muslims female friends are not either, thank God for that. But from what I have read and heard that the act (I dont want to use the C word) ranges from cutting off the hood to as extreme as sewing the lips together (leaving a tiny tiny hole for trickle urinating) AFTER the outer part is cut off. It’s sick. I am sure Allah actually DOES NOT approves this kind of barbaric action. It’s different to male C, it heals faster and it is cleaner to have it done, although much of it also depends on personal hygiene and it obviously doesnt take the sexual pleasure from it.
MK, you are a smart decent man with a lot of knowledge (maybe) about anything, YOU know it’s not that easy for many women to say stop. When I said men, I was generalising, my apology if it offended you. Many of these women come from patriarchal culture and are brought up where when they say no or disagree with their men they are seen as bad women. They dont get the education, information and support they need. Yes I am lucky to come from an Indonesian family who believes that women have rights and were taught to protect myself and to see things from many angles. Even this, it seems that only my family does this amongst the other relatives. It also makes it tough MK that the men use religion against these women for their gain. And use that going to hell excuse if women dont do this or that.
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…but she says that it is not as important for her as it is for me, she can get pleasure just from the act of making love and being loved and an orgasm is just an added bonus.
MK, my sympathy for your wife. It is pathetic to feel that orgasm is an added bonus, when it is the right for everybody to reach that state.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
MK,
Sorry pal, I’m with Parvita on this one. Female circumcision’s horrible, backward, vandalism of a poor child’s body. How would you like the tip snipped off your knob – the way it’s done in most places ?
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Parvita,
If you manage to reach orgasm everytime you have sex you are a very lucky lady, please read here: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/orgasmtrouble.htm.
I have not denied that it is a right for everybody, my wife and I spent two years trying to find what would trigger an orgasm for her. But ultimately it is her choice to reach an orgasm or not, if she prefers to prolong the act of lovemaking because she gets pleasure from being held and loved who am I to deny her that right, and who are you to say that it is pathetic feeling such a thing.
Just one other thing, she doesn’t need your sympathy, she is happily married with two beautiful children and a husband who loves and adores her, she actually feels sympathy for you.
Achmad,
Did you actually read my post? I said “This procedure is abhorrent even in its mildest form being performed as it is on children who are given no choice in the issue.”
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Whoa MK, I dont think Parvita meant anything to offend you. Probably a badly chosen word, but I am sure that she just felt for your wife. Sounds like a very sensitive issue for you…
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MK, really sorry if I offended you, didn’t mean to do that at all. Thanks Ihaknt for trying to moderate. I don’t mean to offend you or anybody. Probably the words were badly chosen. I just feel sad for women, not only your wife, where what should be their right is taken for whatever reason. And it is very sad that because of that, one thinks that orgasm is a bonus. It just proves how cruel female circumsition is.
It’s sort of, like, you have all the right to have a cake, because you bought it with your own money, but yet you think having that cake is a bonus.
It is very upsetting to know that one is brainwashed to say that not having orgasm is ok. Not addressed to you, but think about this, would men not complain if they don’t reach orgasm? While if the women don’t, it’s ok?
Even without FC, some women in Indonesia, probably a lot of them, don’t know what the big O feels like because they don’t know, or they just don’t dare ask the husbands. And with the FC, not only their rights to feel is taken, the part of your body is taken.
I hope you get my point, MK. I am happy that you and your family are doing well and it is true that it takes more than sex to make a marriage work out. And you are right, orgasm can be reached without stimulation, but this not a reason why FC should be conducted.
I’d better stop before I say something wrong again.
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My apologies Parvita,
My comments were unnecessarily personal and vindictive, but I am afraid I do become rather sensitive and defensive when people make negative comments directed at my wife who is the love of my life, I guess they would say in the West my Soulmate.
If you read the link in my last post you will see that it is not uncommon for women to have difficulty reaching orgasm, yes it is their right to do so, but for some, either for physiological or psycological reasons it is not easy. To accept this as a fact is not brainwashing it is just being realistic. Please realise that I am not talking here about women who have been mutilated or deprived of the pleasure of orgasm because of FC or FGM.
You said:
Not addressed to you, but think about this, would men not complain if they don’t reach orgasm? While if the women don’t, it’s ok?
But if a man had physiological or psycological reasons for not being able to have an orgasm, is he pathetic for getting pleasure from the act of making love to his wife and being happy that if he did have an orgasm it would be an added bonus?
No body has suggested that women should not complain if they don’t have the big O or that they have no right to resolve a problem that they may have reaching that state.
Circumcision is wrong both for men and for women, there are no religious justifications for such a barbaric practice being carried out on children who have no right to object. I am in no way defending the practice.
My apologies once again Parvita, but I hope you understand where I am coming from and the point I am trying to make.
Peace
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MK, I understand your point and please understand that there is no cell in my body to offend you or your wife. The word ‘pathetic’ was not used correctly (limited vocabulary, as you can see).
I did hear about women who haven’t experienced orgasm. Women usually don’t feel bad about it. While for men it is such a big deal when his ‘tools’ don’t function when it is needed. That’s probably why there are lots of discussion about men’s impotency, or performance, and the meds for this is so popular. While women don’t discuss this matter too much. But I really cannot tolerate an action that prohibits a woman to have a chance to experience the big O. Such as FGM.
Circumcision is wrong both for men and for women, there are no religious justifications for such a barbaric practice being carried out on children who have no right to object. I am in no way defending the practice.
I totally agree with you. I cannot find it in the Qur’an, because there isn’t. Circumcision is saying that God designed men/women wrongly so it has to be fixed. I just wrote a blog about it.
Peace for you, too.
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edward says:
Interesting reading. Looks like alot of thought has gone into the dialogue and some well read participants. I am a muslim convert married to an Indonesian woman. I practice Islam to a fair extent. I pray regularly, participate in Ramadan, charity etc. We live outside Indonesia in the USA. That’s some backround.
Speaking from my own experience ( my wife has been circumcised she says). Everything looks all intact to me. I’ve seen a few in my day. Before I converted ofcourse. As far as obtaining arousal and climax i’d have to say she is more stimulated than any woman I have experienced. We have a child also.
I have never witnessed the event of female circumcision but would like to some day just to see what it involves. My wife says it is mostly symbolic and is just a small incision. But I don’t think she has ever witnessed it either. I also understand that it must be different in different areas. I was releived that our child is a son and she allowed him to be circumcised shortly after he was born rather than the traditional age of a few years of age in Indonesia. -
tomaculum says:
“...’female circumcision’ is good for woman to maintain cleanliness her vagina …”
Hmm, if God wanted a perfect human being without any risk of sickness and if he sees labia and clitoris as such risks, then I’m sure he would have created women without labia or clitoris (maybe without vagina?) and men without penis.
People, you argue with suras, aren’t you able to use your intellect?
Btw: female circumcision was already practised in the old agyptian culture long time before the Islam was established. In the baroque era till the early 1920s the fem. circumcision was also often practised in Europe as a therapy against masturbation. the same in the roman imperium (female slaves).
This “tradition” is in my eyes not an order from any God, this is simply a tradition, which was carried out long before Islam was established. And its function is the control of the female sexuality.“If the pleasure of sex is not one of Allah’s beautiful gifts I don’t know what is?”
M. Khafi: then Allah or God would have created hermaphrodits (but … maybe they will get also orgasm while impregnating themselves? 🙂 ) -
Molisan Tono says:
Hi guys… good to be back again.
Long way up above all the bullsh*t again… hahaha.
Hermaphrodits…. OMG!!! Sound like transsexual.
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Annika says:
I am a woman no religion and had a female circumcision. This thing does not disturb me at all and i do not see any negative out of it. A female circumcision is only to take about 0,1 or 0.2 cm so it is nothing just as cleaning your nail tip.
The fact says: I live happily with two children and I do not miss anything.
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Oigal says:
and I do not miss anything.
How could you know?
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Dear All,
This debate, though important, runs the risk of going nowhere.
I think the anti-FGM need to work out which group they’re arguing with:
The hardcore conservative Muslims => maybe no chance of winning the discussion.
Those people will tend to turn to the Koran, quote it, shut down rational debate. Only hope with those people is persuade them the Koran does not forbid genital mutilation. The problem is that as a document that reflects its time and place, it might not forbid genital mutilation. Mohammad (SAW), was, after all, a normal human being (as well as being a prophet).
The swinging voters in the middle => maybe a chance.
Capturing the “Public space,” and publicly-perceived concepts of decency => very good chance. Paint FGM as backward, cruel, and primitive. Avoid complex debates about theology and just go on an intelligent discrediting campaign.
Let’s face it — are their any legitimate arguments for FGM ? How ’bout clipping the end of the Ayatollah’s knob ? The Saudi royal family ? The head of the MUI ?
Not such a good idea ? Didn’t think so.
Like this:
To everyone arguing for FGM – ok let’s call it “female circumcision,”:
Clip the end off your knob. Go on, just a “nick” to be “clean.” And I’m not talking the hood, either.
If not, why not ?
What sort of parents stick a knife into their daughter’s vagina ?
Are you that sort of parent ?
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‘I do not miss anything’ means everything is perfect also from Sex life (pardon). But I had a female circumcision when just born not a teen time.
If they do the FC on teenager “just don’t do it”.
Cheers,
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Annika, you’re missing 0,1 0r 0,2 of your nice vaginal thing…. don’t you notice??? HAHAHA….
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BA Potgieter says:
Dont Islamic people bath in soap and water to cleans themselves? It is a worldly habit to bathe yourself but instead you decide to remove pieces of genitals to prevent from bathing your body.DISGUSTING!!! ans as the good book makes no reference to mutilating the body created by GOD and then mutilated by man.How hypocritical and insulting to the work of GOD and of course you are insulting your Holy Creater at the same time.HELL is waiting for you and of course all the suicide bombers and there instigators.Can you believe that a religion only 1500 years old can cause such havoc and misery while mankind has been on earth for millions of years.
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Molisan Tono: “Hermaphrodits…. OMG!!! Sound like transsexual.” No, the two are quite different.
Hermaphrodite = intersex = Variation of Sex Development. Born with organs and/or chromosomes and/or chemistry different from basic “male” or “female”. Until very recently it was the rule to “normalise” them one way or the other with surgery as babies, but now they are speaking up and say they would rather people had waited until they could say for themselves what they wanted done, if anything (if only because sometimes the doctors’ decision about what sex they are is not what sex they grow up to feel they are).
Transsexual. Usually have a “normal” body but identify as being of the other sex, and may seek operations and hormones to make them look more like how they feel.
In all those cases, and male and female genital cutting, informed consent is the issue. The chances of anyone wanting to have had part of their body cut off is low, compared to the chance of their wanting to have been left alone.
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You are sick people talking f*cking religions thinking which is right . Govern your self and attitude that best for you. Keep your believe deep inside coz your relation to your God is vertical not horisontal.
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<Dear readers,
Circumcision has always been a cultural practice and has existed before Judaism and Islam etc. I believe that no one needs to be circumcised. Circumcision came into culture because of hygenic reasons. Most semitic people lived in the dessert. Most of us can shower and bathe ourselves nowadays you dont need to be circumsised for hygenic reasons. Sex is Gods gift and it should be used in the right manner. Fgm cannot me compared to male circumcision but both are bad. When a male is circumcised he also loses some sensation. i think its another way to opress women.
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Jaffar says:
In all that I have read, we seem to be missing the simplest of reasons that female circumcision has been practiced in the eastern and mid eastern cultures or for that matter every place else
A woman was said to be bringing dishonor and disrespect to the name/home of her husband/father/ brother/ tribe what ever the excuse was at the time if she was ever found to be pleasuring herself or God forbid pleasuring another female by stimulating their respective genitals; The rulers were at that time mostly men and as a result made up what ever laws; usually on the spur of the moment that best suited their situation, up to beheading, boiling in oil or whatever horrendous punishment they choose to inflict on the woman accused of this “sin” against God.
Remember the leaders usually had several wives and we all know, regardless of what we think one woman is more than enough for one Man
Based on these facts, one can only come to the conclusion that FGC can only be an idea born of the mind of a man who had the power and the assistance of the political and religious leaders of that time to create this idea that women could not pray to their creator unless they had had a part of their God created bodies cut away. Strange that its their genitals that are mutilated why not their breasts? or their hands? or feet? why their genitals. We do ourselves an injustice if we deny the fact that this seems to be an idea thought up by persons who for what ever reason feel threatened by the beautiful mystery that is a woman And remember we get the woman we deserve. -
Jay says:
Ihaknt, stop being stupid! How the hell can you believe female circumcision is wrong, but male circumcision is okay? Guess what, males lose sensitivity when they get circumcised too, not just women! And how can you suggest that cutting of the clitora hood is mutilation, but not cutting off the foreskin?
You people condemning genital mutilation of girls, but not of boys, disgust me!
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Andy says:
Correct Jay. Funny thing when we were still in Indo Catholics and Christians didn’t used to circumcise their sons but now do. So for them it is the ‘modern’ thing to do. They told me when I said I won’t be circumcising my son that I needed to get with the times. Of course for me that brought much silent laughter and derision. Knowing that in the west we have been discouraging this practice for at least a generation. Muslims I expect would do it to both males and females but especially males as they don’t know any better and are still living in a different century to the rest of us.
I ask anyone who has circumcised their sons (or daughters) would you cut off their fingers if the majority said it was the thing to do? -
“Catholics and Christians” (actually, Catholics are Christians by the usual definitions of those words) “didn’t used to circumcise their sons but now do. So for them it is the ‘modern’ thing to do. They told me when I said I won’t be circumcising my son that I needed to get with the times.”
Isn’t it great how circumcision is as ancient as the pyramids and as modern as tomorrow? An act of religious devotion and of surgical hygiene? Very, very important to do and “just a little snip”? It seems there is no argument that can not be mounted to support circumcision, no virtue it does not confer, no disease it does not prevent. I hope you realise I am being sarcastic: it’s a nasty, cruel, harmful, dangerous practice and its time it was stopped, for girls and boys everywhere. (And intersexes’ genitals should be left alone too, except for – very rare – immediate health concerns.)
Comment on “Female Circumcision”.
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I have no idea about female circumcision, I had heard before yet i decided not to go through with that. As I understood that in 2005, the health minister, Mrs. Siti Fadillah had banned the practice of female circumcision. The truth is, I don’t really care with the practice, once again, it goes back to women. It’s very obvious that there are two choices that have to be made, please correct if I am wrong, they said when the outer skin is cut down, woman will lose its sensation of having sex. It is likely orgasm is difficult to reach or almost impossible. Is that true? So who’s control the regulation? Is it against the human rights?