Israel Gaza Strip Conflict
Jan 5th, 2009, in News, by Patung
Protests against the Israel attacks in the Gaza Strip mirror those over the 2006 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
A video of a recent Justice Party/Partai Keadilan Sejahtera (PKS) march through Jakarta over the Israeli attacks on the Gaza strip:
Some stories from this site about Indonesian reactions to the 2006 Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon:
- Israel & Lebanon
- Israel & Lebanon II
- Radicalising of Indonesian Muslims
- Peacekeepers for Lebanon
- Anti Israel Christians
- Ariel Sharon’s Punishment
- Lebanese Jihad
- Paroxysms of Outrage
- Protecting Lebanon
- Dwiki Dharmawan Joins the Chorus
- Israel’s Rejection
- Helping Hizbullah
By changing the dates, and some of the names – “Lebanon” to “Palestine” or “Gaza”, “Hezbollah” to “Hamas” or the “Palestinians” – , the stories then are essentially the same as those now, – stories of mass demonstrations, calls to send troops, (basically fake) efforts to recruit volunteers, official calls for calm and the sending of humanitarian aid only, fund-raising, condemnations, etc.
175 Comments on “Israel Gaza Strip Conflict”
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For any person, politician or public debater who consistently uses profanity to make a point show the level of one’s faculty and inability to debate. The meaner the words being used to rebuff one’s argument, the lower that person’s faculty level truly is. The word you choose speaks for itself and represents who and what you really are.
True politicians or public debaters are those who consistently pressing his/her case, defending good ideas and accept differences with latitude. What profanity have anything to do in this interchange but telling the whole world who you really are. You don’t embarrass me or others by using profanities, but yourself. If you disagree, simply say so and present your ideas and thoughts with clarity to show that your ideas maybe better and work. After all, it is just open debate in a free world.
Sent by:
Future Indonesia Independent Party
http://www.futureindonesia.com -
Kinch says:
Misterrrrrrr, my manners may be (no, they conscioiusly ARE) execrable, but your politics are *excrement*.
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TheWrathOfGrapes says:
Lairedion Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:06 amAs long as the majority of the world’s population adheres to one of the three desert cults we can forget about world peace anytime soon.
Well said, Lairedion. Politics and religions are the main causes of all the troubles in the world.
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Funnily enough, PEOPLE are the main cause of all the troubles in this world. Man is a political and spiritual animal. Any attempt to pretend otherwise is sheer delusional fantasy. This is real life, not some episode of Star Trek.
The best political systems are those that channel all the sociopaths and Type A folks into a Cursus Honorum hemmed in with checks and balances.
As for the best religion.. that’s an impossible question to answer. Clearly current manifestations of Arab/Persian Islam leave a lot to be desired… there’s possibly something to be said for the Chinese way… they didn’t kill their gods with rationality the way Whitey did, it’s just that the Chinese are so old that it’s almost all worn away with time – *except* for the bit about ancestor worship – that’s about all that keeps them breeding and carrying on.
Bit of a problem giving up one’s god(s) because it tends to result in ‘WTF am i doing hereitis’ and this tends to be bad for one’s people’s reproduction rate. Look at Russians, or Germans, or Japanese. There won’t be so many of them left 100 years from now.
So, it’s stupidity to say ‘get rid of religion’ and we will be happy. No we won’t. We’ll be extinct within (say) 5 generations.
(None of this is particularly original thought – I’m a bit of a ‘Spengler’ (@ AsiaTimes) fan.)
Amusingly, a lot of Westerners have fantasy ideas about Buddhism (mainly because they are in ‘anything but Christianity’ mode) and think of it as producing particularly wise and peace-loving adherents. Someone must have forgotten to tell that to the Sinhalese, Burmese, Thais, Laos, Cambodians, Vietnamese :). I don’t mention Chinese and Japanese because in both these cultures, Buddhism isn’t really a religion at all – more a kind of juju for warding off the spirits of dead relatives – rest of the time the natives’ religious inclinations (if any) tend in other directions.
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DumadiSatrio says:
@TheWrathOfGrapes:
wise man once said: Q:What do you get when you mix politics and religion? A: politics
Basically:
You will only corrupt both your politics and your religion.
Look what it did to Islam. No sooner did they have a Caliphate did they have a civil war, and begin splitting into sects.
Now to this day, sunni and shia extremists’ hate for each other is only tempered by their mutual hate for jews. The same could be said for the protestant and catholic fighting of old time europe.@Kinch: Sadly, I do agree. The Arab people have a borderline insane sense of themselves.
One of the most common complaints heard from many Israelis, including leftists, is “How can we make peace with Hamas? Listen to what they say. The want to kill us all”. It puts Israelis in a difficult position, when the other negotiating party basically is saying “We want a ceasefire…..so we can rearm and come kill you”.I think that is why it IS important to work towards a Palestinian state. As a real state actor, with actual responsability, it is not as easy to play this game. As seen by the peace made between Israel with Egypt and Jordan
ps. actually I was thinking a bit more Life Of Brain:
“Look out! The Judean People’s Front! The Judean People’s Front!…”
OTTO: Ve are the Judean People’s Front. Crack suicide squad. Suicide squad! Attack!
[drum roll] Uh! Ugh. Aggh.. [Kills themselves] That showed ’em, huh? Oooh.
[whump]BRIAN:
You silly sods. -
Oh great! Now I’m going to have Life of Brian stuck in my head all day.
Blessed are the cheesemakers?wkwkwkwkw
I love that movie
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sputjam says:
WOG, sorry, it should be wrath of grapes and Lairendon agreed that politics and religion are the main cause of troubles in world.
Injustice is also a main cause. If you got chased out of your property, by recent immigrants to the area, expect some backlash.
It happened during the initial stages of the formation of the US, whereby the red indians fought to protect their homeland and way of life.
Thre can only be one winner if both sides fail to compromise. In the US, it was the european immigrants. In israel-Palestine, i sincerely wish that both community just merge into one.
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Lairedion says:
sputjam said:
WOG, sorry, it should be wrath of grapes and Lairendon agreed that politics and religion are the main cause of troubles in world.
Did I? I said something else:
As long as the majority of the world’s population adheres to one of the three desert cults we can forget about world peace anytime soon.
kinch said:
Funnily enough, PEOPLE are the main cause of all the troubles in this world. Man is a political and spiritual animal. Any attempt to pretend otherwise is sheer delusional fantasy. This is real life, not some episode of Star Trek.
True but religions are expressions of human thought like nazism, communism, fascism and all other ideologies are. Saying “don’t blame religion, blame the people” is an impossibility.
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ET says:
Saying “don’t blame religion, blame the people” is an impossibility.
Both are to blame. The main culprit is the fact that we humans are partly made up with a ‘superego‘ that needs to be filled up with an ideology, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to put our thoughts and actions in an intellectually and socially understandable context. The inherent danger lies in the complexity of the issues involved which makes it impossible for each and every individual to grasp and understand. This is when ideologies and religions come in to play because they present us a package with clear-cut answers and perspectives and relieve us from our doubts and the burden to do our own thinking.
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gunaguna says:
“Greed, power grab and land grab have been historical nature of the Jewish people.” ”time will pass when a Jew is hiding behind a mountain, the mountain will speak up, hey…there is a Jew behind me, go get him! When a Jew is hiding behind a tree, the tree will speak up, hey…there is a Jew behind me, go get him!””This does not suggest that I am anti Israel or anti Semitic in anyway.”
O no. A little crazy, perhaps?
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funny says:
the war between these 2 (multiple?) sides have gone long enough anyway…. how many years have we had to hear, read, and witness this? maybe sputjam is right. if there really is no compromise then there will be only one left standing. time will tell.
but a really good point that hit me is that why nobody seems to care about Sudan, Darfur, etc when it’s really clear that the genocide there outnumber of what’s happening in Arab right now. I understand that the religion itself is very Arab-centric but, from what I heard from common people (thru some TV or radio interview I forgot which), the reason why Indonesia is so ‘gung-ho’ about it is because the people from their religion is suffering.
Isn’t Darfur and Sudan’ genocide demands more attention and awareness if what they say is much to the point?
Or maybe the religion doesn’t matter. It’s the race……..
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Arie Brand says:
Dragonwall continues his ill-informed diatribes against the Palestinians. The last time when I bothered reacting to this, some seven months ago, I caught him in outrageous plagiarism from a Zionist website.
“For the next 20 years the war will continue unless the Palestinians, Hamas, Al Fatah is prepared to understand what is the primary problem that they had created throughout the last century.”
What primary problem are you referring to? To me the primary problem is land theft and the destruction of the Palestinians’ livelihood – all committed by the Israelis in a vindictive and cruel manner.
“There has been many a truce that was agreed but later broken by the Hamas who in fact is actually disagreeing with the Al Fatah in fighting for their rights of territory.”
There is near consensus among the well informed that the latest truce was broken by Israel first – on the 4th of November when the IDF killed six Palestinians . This was repeated on the 6th of November when another four were killed. Moreover Israel maintained its blockade of the Gaza strip, in spite of an agreement to the contrary.
“Many a factor arises from these whereby terrorism starts and the bottom line is someone make the blame for the other to take the blame then comes the bickering on early settlements issues by ignoring what was written in history.
They might as well forget the religious factor.
Are they prepared to accept the fact that the co-existence must consist certain rights not to violate several factors agreed with a consequence.”This seems mere verbiage to me.
“The Israelis had in fact allowed many Palestinians to enter Israel to work and that gave rise to many suicide bombers bombing on the Israelis.
Has there been any of Israeli suicide bombers entering Palestinian territories recorded? I guess not except retaliatory action.”The retaliatory action was on the Palestinian side after Israeli actions in which Palestinians were killed from on high or buried under their wrecked homes, demolished without warning by those monstrous Israeli bulldozers.
These are the statistics since 2000 (see the website of “If Americans knew”)
Israeli and Palestinian Children KilledSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Israelis and Palestinians KilledSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
1,062 Israelis and at least 4,897 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Israelis and Palestinians InjuredSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Daily U.S. Taxes to Israel and the PalestiniansFiscal Year 2007
During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians. (View Source)UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians1955 – 1992
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)“When the Israelis retaliate everyone starts making the blame.”
This was not retaliatory action. Inform yourself first before you pronounce on these things.
“The US does not disapprove the retaliation. There were many protestors? But what are they protesting? Humanitarians? No but taking the innocent victims as a basis for their cause thus putting the Israelis in the position as aggressors.
People are not prepared to accept the fact how it started. They only wants to know what they will get.”If you want to know how it started you should look at the history of the conflict, going back more than a hundred years.
“Though it is agreeable that under such retaliatory action there is bound to have collateral losses. Understanding the core to the problems should be considered more appropriate.
Even the Israelis are willing to come to the table, it is much doubted that the Palestinians is able to accept the term and conditions.”
There were earlier agreements, at camp David, UN when Arafat came up with the Israelis but still these things happened.”Barak, the Israeli PM then, came up with acceptable proposals at Taba but these were purely academic, since the Israeli government changed within the next two weeks. Also, Sharon’s deliberate provocation then in the Temple Mount walk triggered off the second intifada.
The Oslo accords were mainly violated by the Israelis in their continuous expansion of settlements on occupied land. -
Pakmantri says:
Talking about terrorism, I believe Hamas learned it from the playbook of Irgun.
Please search for Irgun and it’s history if you don’t know.
Salam.
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@Arie Brand, @Dragonwall –
The blame game, he did this and he did that, has been going on for 60 years, it goes nowhere except circles.
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dragonwall says:
Dumadisatrio
The blame game, he did this and he did that, has been going on for 60 years, it goes nowhere except circles
I guess you are right. Unless someone is willing to stand on the neutral side and see the whole issue otherwise it will be always someone always blaming the others.
There are many pro Palestinians because of their religion. The very first are those FPI.
Dragonwall continues his ill-informed diatribes against the Palestinians. The last time when I bothered reacting to this, some seven months ago, I caught him in outrageous plagiarism from a Zionist website.
Yes I said that. Are you willing to put your eyes to the test and witness it for the next 20 years? Because“For the next 20 years the war will continue unless the Palestinians, Hamas, Al Fatah is prepared to understand what is the primary problem that they had created throughout the last century.”
To me the primary problem is land theft and the destruction of the Palestinians’ livelihood – all committed by the Israelis in a vindictive and cruel manner.
You mean the Israelis stole their land and had been cruel? Please refer back to what history told us. And not based on conjecture.
There is near consensus among the well informed that the latest truce was broken by Israel first – on the 4th of November when the IDF killed six Palestinians . This was repeated on the 6th of November when another four were killed. Moreover Israel maintained its blockade of the Gaza strip, in spite of an agreement to the contrary.
Did you missed out what happened before they decided to take such actions!
“Many a factor arises from these whereby terrorism starts and the bottom line is someone make the blame for the other to take the blame then comes the bickering on early settlements issues by ignoring what was written in history.
They might as well forget the religious factor.
Are they prepared to accept the fact that the co-existence must consist certain rights not to violate several factors agreed with a consequence.”Well, verbiage or not, it for me to know for your tyo find out.
“The Israelis had in fact allowed many Palestinians to enter Israel to work and that gave rise to many suicide bombers bombing on the Israelis.
Has there been any of Israeli suicide bombers entering Palestinian territories recorded? I guess not except retaliatory action.”The retaliatory action was on the Palestinian side after Israeli actions in which Palestinians were killed from on high or buried under their wrecked homes, demolished without warning by those monstrous Israeli bulldozers.
If I were to come into your house and rob you of something, rape your wife, killed someone, what will be your reaction. I guess you will say things like “Thank you for killing my people and raping my wife , right?”
You must be one of God’s greater invention.Israeli and Palestinian Children KilledSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Israelis and Palestinians KilledSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
1,062 Israelis and at least 4,897 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Israelis and Palestinians InjuredSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)So what does that implies? You must have missed the words like collateral damage, don’t you?
Daily U.S. Taxes to Israel and the PalestiniansFiscal Year 2007
During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians. (View Source)Why? Do you know the answere? I don’t think so. Go on and deny it. When there is a war supported by the US, the POTUS will have to remain in power no matter what the country’s condition they were facing. This is politic. Supporting a war means income to any side. This is political involvement in economics. I doubted much of your understanding based on the word verbiage.
This was not retaliatory action. Inform yourself first before you pronounce on these things.
“The US does not disapprove the retaliation. There were many protestors? But what are they protesting? Humanitarians? No but taking the innocent victims as a basis for their cause thus putting the Israelis in the position as aggressors.
People are not prepared to accept the fact how it started. They only wants to know what they will get.”Of course, when for example your wife got rape, the government will tell you let the law takes it’s course, but you will still want to seek revenge to vent your anger, don’t you. Well Israelis are still humans and they are one of the kind of humans that will always protect their own people and fight for their rights not matter what other says. And this you don’t think is fair. So what about on your part?
If you want to know how it started you should look at the history of the conflict, going back more than a hundred years.
I have earlier stress on commentators to review history that dates back to 1635 BCE , so why not you go take a look into it instead of telling me to see things that was a hundred years ago. Because you decide to forget the past.
There is no such things as that unless they are prepared to accept the fact that the co-existence must consist certain rights not to violate several factors agreed with a consequence.”
So are the Palestinians willing to? You know the answer and that is “For the next 20 years the war will continue unless the Palestinians, Hamas, Al Fatah is prepared to understand what is the primary problem that they had created throughout the last century.”
The Oslo accords were mainly violated by the Israelis in their continuous expansion of settlements on occupied land.
Well the US build a barrier throughout the Mexican border, so is that violations? Understand what it meant to be “protective steps” instead of reading something then quote it on the blog and consider yourself well informed.
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diego says:
Dumadisatrio said:
The blame game, he did this and he did that, has been going on for 60 years, it goes nowhere except circles
Dragie said:
I guess you are right. Unless someone is willing to stand on the neutral side and see the whole issue otherwise it will be always someone always blaming the others.
If you read the rest of dragie’s posting, you will see very clearly his “neutrality”…, noottt.
Let me analyze dragie’s “structure of thinking”:
Dragie hates indonesians.
Indonesians are (mostly) muslims.
So, dragie hates muslims.
Palestina are (mostly) muslims.
Because dragie hates muslims, consequently dragie hates palestina.
Israel hates palestina.
Therefore dragie supports israel.End of logic-101 class for today.
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Ah ha “ahem” so now we all know your 101 logic and that the “1” means your exceptional nonsense that would not make you walk straight.
Dragie hates indonesians.
Proof It.
Indonesians are (mostly) muslims.
What has religion got to do with this issue.
So, dragie hates muslims.
Show me in these blogs that I had said so.
Palestina are (mostly) muslims.Because dragie hates muslims, consequently dragie hates palestina
If they are Jews so what has that got to do with me?
Israel hates palestina.
That is their business.
Therefore dragie supports israel.
Base on facts is what I and commenting and unlike you when you had the stick out of your arse you start to fart.
Haven’t you already apply with the FPI to go to Palestine to fight with them side by side their Holy War..
You should so that you could have the first hand taste of how to become sarcarstic. Perhaps that might teach you a lesson of ..maybe comprehension, maybe….
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Brand:
Dragonwall continues his ill-informed diatribes against the Palestinians. The last time when I bothered reacting to this, some seven months ago, I caught him in outrageous plagiarism from a Zionist website.Dragonwall:
Yes I said that. Are you willing to put your eyes to the test and witness it for the next 20 years? Because“For the next 20 years the war will continue unless the Palestinians, Hamas, Al Fatah is prepared to understand what is the primary problem that they had created throughout the last century.”Brand:
I take note that you don’t deny that plagiarism from a Zionist website. You seem to think that cutting and pasting other people’s words and passing them off as your own is quite all right.Brand:
To me the primary problem is land theft and the destruction of the Palestinians’ livelihood – all committed by the Israelis in a vindictive and cruel manner.Dragonwall:
You mean the Israelis stole their land and had been cruel? Please refer back to what history told us. And not based on conjecture.Brand:
This is what history tells us: In 1947 the UN divided what was left of the British Mandate Territory of Palestine between the Jews and the Palestinians. 55 % went to the Jews and about 45 % to the Palestinians, even though at that stage the Palestinian population of the terrritory was two times bigger than the Jewish population (1,2 million as compared to 600,000). The Palestinians did not accept this for the following reasons: 1. the distribution of the land was, given the respective population numbers, patently unfair 2. The UN acted in this matter “ultra vires” that is beyond its authority. It should at least have consulted the population, through a plebiscite or otherwise, as a whole. An expert on international law, Professor Frances Boyle, has confirmed that the UN acted indeed “ultra vires”.It is, moreover, very questionable whether Israel would have stuck to the deal if the Palestinians had accepted it. There is evidence that (the later Israeli Prime Minister) Golda Meir had, on instructions from Ben Gurion, before the UN decision, secret talks with King Abdullah from what was then called Transjordan for Transjordan to occupy the West Bank rather than that the Palestinians would have it (see the book by the Israeli Oxford historian, Professor Avi Shlaim, “Collusion Across the Jordan”).
Also, Ben Gurion always had his eye on the whole of Palestine. This is, among other things, evident from correspondence to his son dating from the thirties.
Whatever the case may be the Palestinians did not accept the land division and war came about between Israel and the Arab powers. This war has been wrongly depicted as the struggle between a small Israeli force and an overwhelming Arab army. The Israeli historian Benny Morris has demolished this idea. The Israeli army, recently supplied with modern armaments from CzechoSlovakia (with the explicit permission of the Soviet Union which was at that stage still sympathetic to Israel) was at any stage stronger than the combined Arab armies. It has also been wrongly stated that the aggression came entirely from the Arabs. The Jewish defence force had, in fact, already initiated actions, before the Arab onslaught.
Whatever the case may be, in the ensuing war Israel captured another 23 % of the Palestinian territory. So it had now 78 %. Even though international law forbids retaining land gained in war the international community has acquiesced in the fact that the armistice line of 1949, the line that gives Israel 78 %, is the socalled “Green Line” – the possibly internationally recognised border of Israel.
However, in this war hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were driven out of their homes and the part of the country they lived in. Hundreds of civilians were deliberately massacred (google on “Deir Yassin”). They lost all their possessions and have never received any compensation for that. For decades Israel has maintained the lie that they had left their homes voluntarily on the instigation of Arab leaders. This lie too has been demolished by Israel’s “new historians”.
The international community has, however, not acquiesced in the fact that after the so-called Six Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the remaining 22 % of the territory. Resolution 242 of the UN Security Council, to which Israel is a party, explicitly orders Israel to withdraw from occupied territory. Israel has never heeded this resolution which has been many times repeated by the UN after 1968. Instead it has continued putting Israeli settlements in the occupied territory, often acquiring the land for it by legalised theft from the Palestinians. The International Court of Justice has declared that these settlements are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israel has not heeded this judgment.
Under the circumstances “land theft” is not too strong a word. Your protest against it with a vague reference to “history” (about which you are obviously not properly informed) is totally unjustified.
Brand:
There is near consensus among the well informed that the latest truce was broken by Israel first – on the 4th of November when the IDF killed six Palestinians . This was repeated on the 6th of November when another four were killed. Moreover Israel maintained its blockade of the Gaza strip, in spite of an agreement to the contrary.Dragonwall:
Did you missed out what happened before they decided to take such actions!Brand:
No, but obviously you did and you again try to argue through an unspecified reference to the past. Here is again the testimony of the Israel Oxford historian, Professor Avi Shlaim, testimony he came up with in an interview with the broadcaster Amy Goodman at “Democracy Now”:“AMY GOODMAN: Professor Avi Shlaim, Israel says the reason it has attacked Gaza is because of the rocket fire, the rockets that Hamas is firing into southern Israel.
AVI SHLAIM: This is Israeli propaganda, and it is a pack of lies. The important thing to remember is that there was a ceasefire brokered by Egypt in July of last year, and that ceasefire succeeded. So, if Israel wanted to protect its citizens—and it had every right to protect its citizens—the way to go about it was not by launching this vicious military offensive, but by observing the ceasefire.
Now, let me give you some figures, which I think are the most crucial figures in understanding this conflict. Before the ceasefire came into effect in July of 2008, the monthly number of rockets fired—Kassam rockets, homemade Kassam rockets, fired from the Gaza Strip on Israeli settlements and towns in southern Israel was 179. In the first four months of the ceasefire, the number dropped dramatically to three rockets a month, almost zero. I would like to repeat these figures for the benefit of your listeners. Pre-ceasefire, 179 rockets were fired on Israel; post-ceasefire, three rockets a month. This is point number one, and it’s crucial.
And my figures are beyond dispute, because they come from the website of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. But after initiating this war, this particular table, neat table, which showed the success of the ceasefire, was withdrawn and replaced with another table of statistics, which is much more obscure and confusing. Israel—the Foreign Ministry withdrew these figures, because it didn’t suit the new story.
The new story said that Hamas broke the ceasefire. This is a lie. Hamas observed the ceasefire as best as it could and enforced it very effectively. The ceasefire was a stunning success for the first four months. It was broken not by Hamas, but by the IDF. It was broken by the IDF on the 4th of November, when it launched a raid into Gaza and killed six Hamas men. ”
Thus far Professor Shlaim.
Dragonwall:
“The Israelis had in fact allowed many Palestinians to enter Israel to work and that gave rise to many suicide bombers bombing on the Israelis.
Has there been any of Israeli suicide bombers entering Palestinian territories recorded? I guess not except retaliatory action.”Brand:
The retaliatory action was on the Palestinian side after Israeli actions in which Palestinians were killed from on high or buried under their wrecked homes, demolished without warning by those monstrous Israeli bulldozers.Dragonwall:
If I were to come into your house and rob you of something, rape your wife, killed someone, what will be your reaction. I guess you will say things like “Thank you for killing my people and raping my wife , right?”
You must be one of God’s greater invention.Brand:
Suicide bombers do not rape for the obvious reason that they cannot do so after death. Those who shoot Quassam rockets do not do so either. They are at least twenty miles away. The recorded cases of rape in this conflict are all on the Israeli side. Google for the interview between Ari Shavit of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz and Israeli historian Benny Morris. For the reasons indicated above Palestinian militants could not engage in robbery either. When it comes to murderous violence between one and the other party the Israelis have been far more active.Brand:
Israeli and Palestinian Children KilledSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Israelis and Palestinians KilledSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
1,062 Israelis and at least 4,897 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Israelis and Palestinians InjuredSeptember 29, 2000 – Present
8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)Dragonwall:
So what does that implies? You must have missed the words like collateral damage, don’t you?Brand:
“Collateral damage” is a mendacious euphemism. To give one example out of many: in July 2002 an F-16 plane of the Israeli air force dropped a one tone bomb on an apartment building in Gaza in order to get at one particular individual, a Hamas leader. Thirteen civilians were killed in this action among which nine children. This was entirely predictable. Sharon called the action a success. It came in fact after Hamas had declared to be willing to consider renouncing violence and had opened talks with the PLO on this matter (see the Wikipedia entry on Dan Halutz, the commander of the IAF).
This all reinforces the idea, long held among informed observers, that Israel doesn’t want an end to the violence – because peace would oblige it to give up the occupied territories which it is not willing to contemplate.A Spanish prosecutor has, belatedly, opened investigations into this matter. It will come to nothing because Spain has legislation in the make which prohibits such prosecutorial activity when there is no Spanish link. Just this morning a Turkish newspaper (Harriyet Daily News)reported that Turkey’s Chief State Prosecutor has opened investigations into Israeli war crimes in Gaza.
Dragonwall:
“The US does not disapprove the retaliation. There were many protestors? But what are they protesting? Humanitarians? No but taking the innocent victims as a basis for their cause thus putting the Israelis in the position as aggressors.
People are not prepared to accept the fact how it started. They only wants to know what they will get.”Brand:
The person who is not prepared to look at the factsd is you – you only mouth Zionist propaganda.Dragonwall:
If you want to know how it started you should look at the history of the conflict, going back more than a hundred years.I have earlier stress on commentators to review history that dates back to 1635 BCE , so why not you go take a look into it instead of telling me to see things that was a hundred years ago. Because you decide to forget the past.
Brand:
What you did in this regard was plagiarising the words of Charles Kreuzhammer, a wellknown Jewish American commentator and Zionist sympathiser. People of Kreuzhammer’s ilk refer to biblical pronouncements regarding the ‘rightful owners’ of the land of Israel. Quite apart from the fact thast it can be doubted whether most of the Israelis today are really the descendants of those who lived in the area some two and a half thousand years ago I have always found this picture of God as real estate agent to be bordering on the blasphemous.Brand:
The Oslo accords were mainly violated by the Israelis in their continuous expansion of settlements on occupied land.Dragonwall:
Well the US build a barrier throughout the Mexican border, so is that violations? Understand what it meant to be “protective steps” instead of reading something then quote it on the blog and consider yourself well informedBrand:
You obviously don’t know the specifics of the situation. The settlements are on the West Bank, in territory occupied during the Six Day War of 1967, and most of them are not within the wall. However the Wall also draws bits of occupied land within Israel proper. The UN asked the International Court of Justice for advice on this matter and the verdict was that the wall too is illegal under international law.It is really quite obvious that you know very little about the situation and for reasons obscure to me (though I have my suspicions) come up with unadulterated Israeli propaganda. Inform yourself. You can start by reading the article by Professor Henry Siegman, former President of the American Jewish Congress, in a recent issue of the London Review of Books entitled “Israel’s Lies” (online).
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schmerly says:
The UN aid agency in Gaza says it has suspended all aid shipments, accusing the Hamas government of seizing hundreds of tonnes of food supplies.
Ten lorries carrying flour and rice were taken from the Palestinian side of the Kerem Shalom crossing, the UN’s Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) said.
Good old Hamas looking after themselves as usual.
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It is interesting that this itchy-bitchy item is all over the net that is obviously still dominated by the hasbara spreaders. You even find them in Indonesia.
Apparently we should now all forget about the killing of 1300 civilians, among whom many children, we should no longer think of Gaza’s infrastructure having been blown to smithereens, because Hamas was caught ‘stealing’. Oh my.
And how do you know, Mr.Schmerly, that Hamas isn’t of the opinion that it can distribute these goodies more knowingly and fairly than the UNRA? It has built up a certain reputation as a relief agency you know.
Since Gaza is for all intents and purposes still an occupied territory it is Israel that still has the primary responsibility for its inhabitants. But first it starved the place and deprived it of water, electricity and medicine and then it dropped tons of bombs on it.
But so what? Hamas wass caught ‘stealing’
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@Arie Brand.. and of course Hamas doesn’t use it’s own people as human shields? I think the death rate would have been a lot lower if didn’t use their people in this way, and I wonder why they seized the hundreds of tons of food aid? simply to make money, their riddle with corruption, and if people are not Hamas supporters they get nothing.
BTW this not the first time it was the second incident in three days, when 3,500 blankets and more than 400 food parcels were seized at gunpoint from a distribution centre in Gaza.
Nice people yea. -
Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ schmerly
@Arie Brand.. and of course Hamas doesn’t use it’s own people as human shields? I think the death rate would have been a lot lower if didn’t use their people in this way, …
You are not being fair here. The IDF is armed to the teeth with sophisticated weaponry. The Hamas would be sitting ducks if civilians were not used as shield.
@ Brand
The international community has, however, not acquiesced in the fact that after the so-called Six Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the remaining 22 % of the territory. Resolution 242 of the UN Security Council, to which Israel is a party, explicitly orders Israel to withdraw from occupied territory. Israel has never heeded this resolution which has been many times repeated by the UN after 1968.
Correct me if I am wrong. Israel would be committing harakiri to withdraw completely because the strip of land is elevated and overlooking Tel Aviv. For this very reason, one can understand why Israel should keep it.
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“Ahem” right, right plagiarism, propaganda, it not right for other to pastes but it’s alright for you to do so. F.O.
Right Hamas steal, so what? And you dare say that they were not the ones to start the chaos first.
Right, the Hamas has the only right in the world to use human shield and then claimed that their civilians were attacked. These is only tactic they use, hiding themselves amogn civilians then accused others of killing innocent civilians. You must be great. But first Kiss My Arse. OK
Commenting with people like you really makes me puke.
It is like you have the right to do this whereas others do not have the right.
Why did the UN made the 1947, you are really supporting aggression not base on fact but what you think is right like the above.
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Schmerly said:
“and of course Hamas doesn’t use it’s own people as human shields? I think the death rate would have been a lot lower if didn’t use their people in this way, and I wonder why they seized the hundreds of tons of food aid? simply to make money, their riddle with corruption”
Schmerly has now taken to a second stock argument in Israeli propaganda – the “human shields” one.
First of all, Schmerly, Hamas does not have a modern army of any description. It is a lightly armed guerilla force. Guerillas usually hide among the civilian population.
Of course, Israel would prefer them to go to an unihabited place in Gaza (if they can find one) and there write with big letters in the sand: WE ARE HERE. A few bombs on them and that would be the end of Hamas.
Do you have any idea, Schmerly, of the size of the Gaza strip? It is about half the size of Jakarta. Look it up. So even if Hamas would be so stupid to look for an uninhabited place, plainly visible from the air, they would be hard put to it to find one.
And Hamas is riddled with corruption, is it? Well the main reason why Hamas won the last Palestinian elections fair and square, not only in Gaza but on the Westbank, was that in comparison to the PLO it was regarded as relatively incorrupt. It lives by a strict Islamic code which of course Israel and the USA don’t like (and you probabbly don’t either).
Hamas participated in the last election at the explicit invitation of the USA. When it won it was suddenly outlawed and declared to be a ‘terrorist organization’. The Turkish Prime Minister, Erdogan, said about this in a recent interview in the Washington Post:
“… Hamas is not an arm of Iran. Hamas entered the elections as a political party. If the whole world had given them the chance of becoming a political player, maybe they would not be in a situation like this after the elections that they won. The world has not respected the political will of the Palestinian people. On the one hand, we defend democracy and we try our best to keep democracy in the Middle East, but on the other hand we do not respect the outcome of . . . the ballot box. Palestine today is an open-air prison. Hamas, as much as they tried, could not change the situation. Just imagine, you imprison the speaker of a country as well as some ministers of its government and members of its parliament. And then you expect them to sit obediently?”
Exactly
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Aluang Anak Bayang said:
“Correct me if I am wrong. Israel would be committing harakiri to withdraw completely because the strip of land is elevated and overlooking Tel Aviv. For this very reason, one can understand why Israel should keep it.”
Aluang this argument is based on the wrong premiss, namely that the war situation would continue even after Israel has finally obeyed Resolution 242 of the Security Council, and gone along with the peace initiative unanimously endorsed by all 22 members of the Arab League. This Arab peace plan is largely based on Resolution 242.
Israel has been offered peace and recognition of its borders if it withdraws within the Green Line, that is the armistice line of 1949 that until the Six Day War constituted its border. Israel has ignored Resolution 242 and it has equally not taken notice of the Arab Peace Initiative declaring it to be a propaganda hoax to repair the Arab image after 9/11. But the Arab League came up with it in 2002 and has re-endorsed it in the Riyadh Summit of 2007. Quite recently the Secretary General of the Arab League was present at that now notorious meeting in Davos where we had that altercation between the Turkish Prime Minister, Erdogan, and the President of Israel. In a strong speech he reminded Peres of this peace offer saying that the Arab League had never had a positive reaction to it. Peres’ response was to mumble something about things being so very complicated.
The truth of the matter is that Israel doesn’t want peace if that implies giving up the land they occupied in the Six Day War. It wants to have peace at its own terms, that is getting all of Palestine and shutting the Palestinians up in enclaves with only local autonomy – sort of the Bantustans of the South African apartheid era except that the Afrikaners tried to make of the Bantustans viable social-economic units whereas the Israelis have never done anything else than sabotaging such economic activity as the Palestinians have by a system of checkpoints (there are more than 600 on the West Bank), permits, withholding of tax revenue etc.etc. And I am not even speaking here of the activities of the crazed religious Israeli settlers on the West Bank who have at numerous times pulled out the olive trees in Palestinian orchards, poisoned Palestinian waterwells and physically maltreated Palestinian farmers if they had a chance.
I can only urge you to read up on the conflict and to go beyond Israeli propaganda. There are American Jewish anti-Zionist websites where you can get more information. Here are a few addresses: http://www.philipweiss.org ; http://www.tonykaron.com ; http://www.richardsilverstein.com. The blogrolls there provide further addresses.
Happy reading.
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Dragonwall, your post doesn’t deserve an answer. I can only give you the advice: when you are in a hole stop digging.
Your ignorance and lack of arguments become more apparent with every post you produce.
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@Arie Brand… As far as I’m concerned any problems Hamas has is of their own doing.
Israel didn’t start the six day war, so they have every right to defend themselves, the good old Moslem envy has once again raised it’s ugly head because their neighbours are better off than them, they’ve always had this jealousy and envy problem when they see others who are prepared to make something of themselves, lets face it Israel built a country out of nothing. -
Thanks for the links. I will read them up and get back to you.
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Schmerly said:
“Israel didn’t start the six day war, so they have every right to defend themselves, ”
I really don’t understand why you are so intent on openly pronouncing on a matter you obviously know so little about.
It seems that you have a problem with moslems, which must be uncomfortable for you if you do indeed live in Indonesia (you might of course also be a Zionist troll who has just dropped in).
As a matter of fact it was Israel that struck the first blow in that war. The Israeli air force had studied the habits of Egyptian pilots and knew at what hour after their first training flight in the morning they would return to barracks for their breakfast. In the morning of the 5th of June 1967 squadrons of the Israeli Air Force flew under the radar to the Egyptian airfield where they knew most of the Egyptian airforce to be stationed. They had carefully picked the hour at which the Egyptian pilots were at breakfast. In a surprise attack reminiscent of Pearl Harbour they destroyed most of the Egyptian Air Force on the ground. After that the Israelis had absolute superiority in the air and this explains why the war was done and over with in six days.
What had led to the war? The Soviets had funneled false intelligence to the Egyptians that Israel was massing troops on the Syrian border and planning to attack that country. At this Egypt sent the UN peacekeepers packing and massed itself troops on the Israeli border. It also closed the Straits of Tirana for shipping.
The US was concerned about these developments though American intelligence had reported that Nasser was engaged in a game of brinkmanship and was not really out for war. American intelligence had also confirmed (as indeed had Israeli intelligence) that Israel had little to fear from the Arabs as the Israeli forces were far stronger.
Thus President Johnson tried to rein in Israel saying that the US would not come to its aid if Israel started the war and promising to form an international naval squadron to lift the blockade of the Straits of Tirana (which was actually not all that important to Israeli shipping). Australia and Holland volunteered for that job.
But while Johnson was thus engaged Israel struck the first blow.So much for your statement that Israel didn’t start the Six Day War.
As for Israel building a country out of nothing – that is another Zionist lie.
The slogan coined by Israel Zangwill was “A land without people for a people without land”. This was wishful thinking.
According to the demographer Professor Justin McCarthy this small region had around 1890 already a population of at least half a million Arabs whereas the Jewish population was then insignificant.
“In 1898, Leo Motzkin reported to the Second Zionist Congress that in Palestine “one must admit that the density of the population does not give the visitor much cause for cheer. In whole stretches throughout the land one constantly comes across large Arab villages, and it is an established fact that the most fertile areas of our country are occupied by Arabs.”
And these Palestinians had often flourishing orchards and were engaged in other agricultural pursuits. Many of these Arab villages were razed to the ground after the war of 1948/49. Even their names have disappeared from the map.
I am waiting for your next bit of disinformation.
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@DS: Unfortunately they’re mostly all raving lunatics.
On Arabs in general:
One problem is that Arab culture(!) is drunk on words. Most of them have only ever read one book (if that) assuming they can read at all…. and not the sort to inspire critical thinking either.
In the Arab fantasy world of the mind, victory is theirs because they say it is. Roll out a few choice phrases in what is no doubt a very poetic language full of echoes of that one book and things become true because they sound good and sound like the recitation of higher truths. Conditions in the real world on the ground count for nothing. Saddam Hussein declared a great victory after getting his ass handed to him on a plate in the first Gulf War. The Arabs claim again to have won a great victory against Israel in 1973, despite being soundly thrashed and losing large chunks of territory in the process. If there were only one Palestinian left with no arms and no legs and no trunk, he’d be a hopping head like in that Monty Python sketch claiming that he could defeat 10,000 Jews with his tongue. Bravado is bravado, but these guys are just nuts.
A laughable, deluded *Little People* (thank you, Mister Lawrence) . Too bad for the rest of us that they have all that oil and gas.
Too bad for them if they ever get their hands on a 2nd-hand nuke. Which they will in due course. The Israelis will lose Tel Aviv (and quite probably their state), but it doesn’t take a brain the size of a planet to figure out what the Arabs will lose in payback.