Muslim Rituals – Salaat

Dec 10th, 2008, in News, by

The importance of rituals, public signs reminding people about their obligations to perform salaat, daily Muslim prayers.

Two road side signs asking passers-by whether they have performed salaat (or sholat, salat, shalat), or the five times daily Muslim prayers, saying “Have you prayed (today)?”.

The first sign could simply be seen as a form of advertising for the Islamic foundation/mosque that put it up, while the second appears on a freeway and has the appearance of being an official traffic type sign.


94 Comments on “Muslim Rituals – Salaat”

  1. Cukurungan says:

    The words in the koran warns man about the imams and religious scholars. Make your own fundamental decision and do not be mislead by religious authority.

    Agree especially Imam Sputjam bin Mukhlis (Muka Kaya Ustads tapi kata-2nya dari Iblis)

  2. Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother sputjam

    You said:

    Muslims are so confuse they cannot tell the right from the wrong.

    We have assigned to Hell multitudes of jinn and humans, those who have hearts that do not understand, eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. They are like animals, No! They are worse than animals, but they are not aware. (Quran 7:179)

    Don’t you think that except Allah, no one can exactly know about someone’s heart. I may have a heart that does not understand. I may not have a pure heart, but Allah would not have liked quoting of a verse of Quran by a Muslim for another Muslim like this. I am always willing to listen to any other Muslim brother and sister. I love you as long as you love Allah and His Messenger saas, even if you don’t. I am concerned about the afterlife of every Muslim brother and sister as much as about my own.

    You said:

    The Messenger will say, my Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an. (Quran 25:30)

    Brother, I try my best to recite,understand and most importantly practise Quran as much as I can despite my tough engineering studies. However, I have learned that interpreting Quran for yourself disregarding what Allah’s Messenger saas taught, can result in a drastically different meanings than the actual meaning.

    For example, Qadianis use this verse to prove that a new prophet like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad can come after Muhammad saas.

    36:30 … There comes not an apostle to them but they mock him.

    However, authentic Hadiths clearly contradict the interpretation they like to extract from that verse.

    Abu Hurairah ra reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The similitude of mine and that of the Apostles before me is that of a person who built a house quite imposing and beautiful, but for one brick in one of its corners. People would go round it, appreciating the building, but saying: Why has the brick not been fixed here? He said: I am that brick and I am the last of the Apostles.

    Sahih Muslim 5675

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother Cukurungan

    The words in the koran warns man about the imams and religious scholars. Make your own fundamental decision and do not be mislead by religious authority.

    I am happy to read this. This is exactly what we should all do. However, sometimes we ourselves become misled by opposing even those who are really the learned ones, like the ones about whom Allah says:

    4:162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in Allah and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.

    Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah

    neorient@gmail.com

  3. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah brother Elijah,

    Your attitude of love and calmness marks you out as somebody special, please continue in that fashion to search for the truth. I am sure though, that you can find relevant verses in Al Quran, without having to resort to the use of Hadith.

    Allah has promised us that Al Quran has been given his protection, he has never made such promises for the words of men. Please be wary my brother that you do not fall into the trap of using the words of men as religious guidance.

    Say, “Shall I seek for Judge and Ruler someone other than Allah? He it is Who has revealed this Book, well expounded in detail for you.” Those whom We have given the Book know that this is revealed in Truth from your Lord. Be not among those who argue for the sake of argument. 6:114

    Peace

  4. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother Elijah

    There is a misunderstanding re:

    The words in the koran warns man about the imams and religious scholars. Make your own fundamental decision and do not be mislead by religious authority.

    Brother Cukurangan didn’t write this. It was Brother Sputjam.

    This is what Brother Cukurangan wrote in response to Brother Sputjam:

    Agree especially Imam Sputjam bin Mukhlis (Muka Kaya Ustads tapi kata-2nya dari Iblis)

    And the Indonesian sentence in bracket means: “Your freaking face act like a islamic teacher, but words oozing out of your mouth is from Satan”

    Wasalam.

  5. Barry Prima says:

    Sufism deviate from the teachings of Quran.Its teachings are man-made, and it isnt what is inscribed in the quran.

    Depends on what you mean by inscribed in the Quran. There’s a lot of scope for that. As I mentioned about the Quran requiring an active participation that gave it multiple/diverse meanings.

    Why must you be influenced by the teaching of other religions such as Taoist, Hindu to understand the wisdom behind Islamic teachings?

    Because god sent prophets before Muhammad and as long as what is remaining of their wisdom doesn’t contradict AL Quran, why not?
    Besides the wisdom in these traditions explains a lot of things, that the Quran doesn’t address. For example the Quran doesn’t tell you how to perform Sholat. And for that matter it doesn’t tell you how to tie your shoe laces or how to give your wife an orgasm. The Quran is a book, a revelation, something that is other than Allah, so how can it be absolute in itself? It is only absolute within a certain definition or realm of knowledge.

    why must your Islam be viewed from the lenses of other religions

    It is more a question of viewing those religions via the lense of Islam and Tawhid.
    Is your brand of Islam created through the amalgamation of bits of other religion?

    Absolutely not. The other bits help clarify Islam, not compromise it. Ritually I only practise Islam.

    The shaytans are leading you straight to Hell fire!

    I’ll let Allah decide that..

    And I thought you were the expert in Arabic?

    Never claimed to be an expert, if there are issues or terms I don’t understand I do refer to people better qualified than me, that I know personally or whose credentials I can verify, instead of relying on internet translations and speculators whose credentials as human beings/scholars I don’t know!

    That is why I do not criticize the Hadiths because I am not in a position to do so as a linguist. I am not disputing the need to critically look at the hadith, what I am disputing is the conclusions of the people who dismiss all Hadith, using reasoning that is very superficial.
    Khafi is not qualified to do this, nor can he sight people who are either. That’s makes his argument not worth considering seriously!

    Khafi comes across as a product of the Internet and its Half Truths, I would advise him to study under the feet of wise men who have devoted their lives to Allah instead of using the Internet as his Wali.

    The Arabic word ‘Allah’ has no gender

    Never disputed that but Allah has 99 attributes some of which are feminine, some masculine. In the Quran Allah is referred to using Gender specific terms, more specifically masculine ones, that is the issue!
    The Arabic grammar has only two genders, male and female and male gender.
    So by necessity in the quran Allah has to choose either the feminine or masculine gender!!!!
    The word Allah (swt), too falls in the second category i.e. Masculine Majazi. Masculine Majazi i.e. Unreal
    All these still fulfil an active and thus masculine function, something can be genderless in English as you say in a manner of speaking, but it is still masculine or feminine in its relation to other things. The Arabic language doesn’t have a third category as it recognises this basic cosmological principle! Ie everything is created in Pairs, and who said there is no yin yang???

    The quran is the articulation of a certain relationship between heaven and earth and thus Allah must take a form in the Quran that is dualistic as it (the quran) is a created thing!
    Besides how can Allah fall into that category(Majazi) exclusively as your quote said as that would mean he is unreal or abstract and thus that would compromise his absoluteness?
    The concept of Allah in Islam is not to being or non being, it is neither and both.
    You don’t resolve the dichotomy by this explanation!
    Besides nothing in the created world,including the Quran and thus Allah himself as articulated within it, is ever really neutral as it is bound by the laws of polarity,ie it has a relationship to something that is the opposite of it.!
    ‘huwa’ into English, it can be translated as ‘he’ or ‘it’.
    But it can’t be translated as she can it, so it’s not absolute and thus not truly Neutral or absolute!
    Huwa is most definitely a masculine term..it cannot in any way be ascribed a she, wether it is unreal or real!
    The article is only useful in distinguishing between the qualities of the Masculine things, not their masculinity per se as expressed unavoidably in Language.
    Allah (swt) is unique and cannot be referred as ‘it’
    IN his essence, he cannot be he /she or it, as these are all definitions that are limited. but in his manifestation, esp in the realm of words he has to be either of those and precisely for the reasons i mentioned earlier he has to be a he!
    The crux of the matter is that every Arabic speaking person will refer to Allah as a he, never a she,..You can’t avoid that..Even you can’t avoid that either in English as you have to use he or she or it…..and he is the most appropriate…
    Yet you argue that the Quran is clear when it evidently can’t be in the manner your speaking of , because it uses language, which is by definition imprecise!

    Your answer is above Mr Barry, read it again until it becomes clear.

    The definition you copied and pasted from a source you cannot verify the Credentials of is not clear at all, in fact its pure apologetics ,that don’t resolve the dichotomy!
    No Mr Barry, simply by those who understand grammar and the manner in which Allah presents himself in Al Quran.
    Evidently not you..And the source you quoted can u verify they do as well? Ironic as you seem to be so keen or verifying everything precisely!
    You are incapable of forming any judgment on your own, and worst still you cannot verify the sources you use to justify your position!
    You dispute all the Hadith and yet you are quick to quote sources to justify your position that you cannot verify???

    We as is used here is the majestic plural otherwise known in English as the Royal ‘we’. This style is also used in Arabic.

    I wasn’t asking for literal translation, i was hoping perhaps unrealistically for a comment on the diversity of phrases used to articulate Allah by himself. The diversity of words only serves my point about how words have a quality in relation to other words and can never be absolute or fail to compromise the totality of god, including in his own words(albeit on certain level)
    To me as matter of faith i accept there are no absurdities on the metaphysical level; where everything is put into its rightful place, but on the literal level there are many….I just mentioned a few in my earlier post in this thread.
    In fact on the whole Quran and religion itself is somewhat absurd to the rational mind,you make up for it by apologetics..That shows you can’t penetrate or have the inclination to penetrate behind the appearance of things and wish to destroy that which doesn’t agree with you.

    But understanding Al Quran seems to be giving you some problems doesn’t it?

    Yes and thats a good thing…the quran is like a well that is inexhaustible…it would be boring if i got the meaning straight away, it would not have created any civilisation if it didnt.!

    so I have to assume that it has been either incorrectly transliterated, interpreted and translated.

    Which Ayat is that? You always have to assume that when something doesn’t correspond to your apologetics…you already define Allah on certain terms and conditions, which are based on nothing but modern sensibilities.

    Or it could be of course that you are one of those in whose heart is perversity, mentioned in the verse earlier?

    Very much so and you likewise. Allahualim I don’t think hundreds of years of devoted scholars and mystics were wrong and suddenly in the 21th century a few stooges have cracked it!

    I have never stated that Al Quran is clear and fixed. I have said that within it’s verses Allah says that it is complete, perfect and fully detailed.

    You haven’t answered the point raised again if it is perfect and fully detailed (which I don’t dispute as in a manner of speaking it is, not in an absolute unqualified sense) but if its not clear and fixed then it doesn’t serve your anti hadith and Quran only argument at all does it???? The verses which you have used by the way from the quran, are so clearly nothing to do with the body of Hadith literature, it hardly even demands a response!

    verifying the verse based on your understanding of the nature of Revelation itself! You should have simply checked some other translations.

    To what purpose? As I said why look at fourteen other translations when they are all different?? The translation itself is based on the authors understanding of the nature of revelation!

    I would be asking why do these Hadith exist which the missionary sites can use against us?

    Even the Quran can be used against us, doesn’t make them right does it? That’s no argument at all!

    What flaws in reasoning?

    You quoted Some hadiths which you said were nonsense…yet the reasons your buddies used to justify them as nonsense were even more nonsensical…and betrayed basic flaws in not just the understanding of Arabic language but common sense.
    Please address these Hadiths again and explain clearly why they are absurd..and use the quran too to explain why they are absurd (as far as i know the quran doesn’t say anything about the wearing of broken sandals, so that is not reason to dispute the hadiths good advise!).

    They are not really scholars.

    So if nobody is a scholar, we should not have any opinion, except yours which is only an opinion, an opinion that is based on internet learning.
    This idea that we all have equal rights and capability to access truth is absolutely anthises to the way of every single religious society…. You are if not a missionary/Anti islamist, definitely a stooge who has swallowed their propaganda!
    Your whole idea of reality and human nature is based on Western post renaissance ideas about reality/freedom/right wrong/revelation/god, yet you are not even aware of it.
    According to the Quran itself Muhammad was a mere mortal, nothing special at all and certainly no scholar. If the Quran is to be the only source then Adam is much more knowledgeable than Muhammad as Allah `taught him the name of all things’. Even the figure assumed to be Khidr in the Quran, has more knowledge than Muhammad, as he knew a lot more than even Moses.!
    It is only through the Hadith that you can get credibility for the belief that Muhammed was the most knowledgeable.

    Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it.”

    So in this line you quote Hadith to discredit Hadith.

    Islam is not about any religious system, it is certainly not what we see in mainstream Islam, which is better described as Mohammedanism

    Only a missionary or colonialist would use the term Muhhamedanism!

    Anyway…..getting to the crux of the matter Khaf.. please explain very clearly this:

    Where did this movement of complete rejection of Hadith come from? Who are the most prominent figures in this school of thought and what are their credentials. Obviously you don’t have the credentials yourself, however you would be worth listening to if your sources were credible.

  6. Barry Prima says:

    Khafi..

    The more i dig…the more my suspicions grow…you know i hadn’t given your ideas much thought..However once you started saying that everybody had got it wrong for 1400 years…including every single Muslim saint since the beginning of Islam and that somehow you and your peers had got it right it made me really start to question what your objectives were… That and more importantly your obvious lack of depth in dealing with Quran and Hadith to support your ideas showed you up very quickly as wolf in sheeps clothing….
    Ive done a bit of browsing on the internet, as this attempt is something new to me. As well as noticing that all the Hadith you used as exactly those used on missionary and anti ISLAM and Anti tradition websites..i also learned that the idea of rejecting the
    Hadith literature originates from a Jew (how surprising) named:

    Ignaz Goldziher

    The most important figure associated with this Anti Hadith lobby is
    Rashed Khalifa

    This man claimed to have found a code to crack the Quran..which he ran through a computer and established a pattern based on the number 19…he first claimed the quran was perfect,but then claimed that two verses had to be taken out as they disrupted his pattern, and thus they were forgeries.
    His Mathematical formula has also been hotly disputed…many observers have claimed it is based on many lies and manipulations(those who are sufficiently interested can read for themselves).

    Khalefa then proceeded to claim himself a prophet, the final one …and was shunned by the muslim world… he was stabbed to death in Egypt.

    Whilst i acknowledge a good can come out of a bad situation and that Khalefas critique against the reliance on Hadith, should encourage the scholars to look harder at the Hadith and the Quran …this whole scenario gives a context behind this school of thought.
    As Muslims are more tenable to believe in the validity of Khalefas ideas, as a superficial understanding of Religion would make it appear quite reasonable,.Alot of missionary and anti islamist have also used this as first step in the phase to direct the Muslim world away from their traditions ,which is necessary for them so that in time tey lose faith in the Quran and divine revelation itself.!
    Khafes ideas appeal to simplicity, but they have a hidden subtext and they lead to certain inevitable results, anyone who knows the history of Chritianity in the west will recognise
    Khafi you come i the guise of peace and humility, but your ideas are based on the hatred of the scholars and holy men of the past. In fact they betray a hatred of the sacred and the mysterious..
    Your tactics are very easily recognisable as those of covert missionaries (no one knows better about devious Christian missionaries than Indonesians)

  7. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Mr Barry,

    You said:

    Never claimed to be an expert, if there are issues or terms I don’t understand I do refer to people better qualified than me, that I know personally or whose credentials I can verify, instead of relying on internet translations and speculators whose credentials as human beings/scholars I don’t know!

    How can you expect an unbiased opinion when you are asking supporters of hadith for an explanation?

    Allah warns us against blindly following what others follow, even our own fathers!:
    And thus, We did not send before you any warner in a town, but those who led easy lives in it said: Surely we found our fathers on a course, and surely we are followers of their footsteps.
    (The warner) said: What! even if I bring to you a better guide than that on which you found your fathers? They said: Surely we are unbelievers in that with which you are sent.
    43:23-24

    Mr Barry said:

    That is why I do not criticize the Hadiths because I am not in a position to do so as a linguist. I am not disputing the need to critically look at the hadith, what I am disputing is the conclusions of the people who dismiss all Hadith, using reasoning that is very superficial.

    These people reject hadith because Allah says Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, and asks which hadith after his revelation will people beleive in!

    I said “the Arabic word Allah has no gender”

    Mr Barry said:

    Never disputed that but …..

    But Mr Barry had earlier written:

    SO why is god a he not a she in the quran?
    Well what is the purpose of the Quran? The purpose is to guide. Thus Allah is manifesting his role as a law giver, a commander of men s souls; this is his masculine or yang function. That is why he is a he in Quran, as the function he is serving is a masculine one!

    Spoken with a true Patriachal Bias, just as his teachers and the so called Scholars of Hadith have done!

    To bolster his argument about the masculinity of Allah, Mr Barry said:

    The Arabic language doesn’t have a third category as it recognises this basic cosmological principle! Ie everything is created in Pairs, and who said there is no yin yang???

    The point is Mr Barry, Allah was not created, Allah simply exists, Allah is not part of a pair and thus has no need to be either gender. The expanation I gave earlier explains the reason for the use of He as an epicene pronoun, in both Arabic and English. It doesn need Taoist theories of ying and yang to create confusion, unlike you.

    To put it into words you may comprehend…. Allah is the Tao, formless, ever existing, having no beginning and no end.

    When I said “We as is used here is the majestic plural otherwise known in English as the Royal ‘we’. This style is also used in Arabic.”

    Mr Barry said:

    I wasn’t asking for literal translation, i was hoping perhaps unrealistically for a comment on the diversity of phrases used to articulate Allah by himself. The diversity of words only serves my point about how words have a quality in relation to other words and can never be absolute or fail to compromise the totality of god, including in his own words(albeit on certain level)
    To me as matter of faith i accept there are no absurdities on the metaphysical level; where everything is put into its rightful place, but on the literal level there are many….I just mentioned a few in my earlier post in this thread.
    In fact on the whole Quran and religion itself is somewhat absurd to the rational mind,you make up for it by apologetics..That shows you can’t penetrate or have the inclination to penetrate behind the appearance of things and

    wish to destroy that which doesn’t agree with you

    .

    Apparently unsatisfied with a grammatical explanation to his question, he then tries to divert attention away from the simple answer given, in his normal fashion.

    As to your comments later in that paragraph, I wish to destroy that which diverts people away from the simplicity and goodness of Al Quran, it is not that it doesn’t agree with me, it just doesn’t agree with Allahs words.

    Mr Barry said:

    Allahualim I don’t think hundreds of years of devoted scholars and mystics were wrong and suddenly in the 21th century a few stooges have cracked it!

    Anti Hadith has been in existence since before the Hadith were complied, The Prophet himself fordid their writing and collection, did you not read what I printed earlier?

    Mr Barry somewhat contradicting himself said:

    You haven’t answered the point raised again if it is perfect and fully detailed (which I don’t dispute as in a manner of speaking it is, not in an absolute unqualified sense) but if its not clear and fixed then it doesn’t serve your anti hadith and Quran only argument at all does it???? The verses which you have used by the way from the quran, are so clearly nothing to do with the body of Hadith literature, it hardly even demands a response!

    I won’t bother answering the first part, as you don’t seem to have made your mind up if Quran is clear and fixed or not!

    As to the bold part:

    Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? 45.6

    Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? 7.185

    Then what HADEETH after that, will they believe in? 77.50

    God has revealed the most beautiful HADEETH 39.23

    Mr Barry said:

    To what purpose? As I said why look at fourteen other translations when they are all different?? The translation itself is based on the authors understanding of the nature of revelation!

    As I said earlier, I looked at more than 14, it was 14 of 17 that disagreed with your translation, the 14 were in agreement, not only with the literal translation but also the spirit of the message of Al Quran.

    Mr Barry said:

    Even the Quran can be used against us, doesn’t make them right does it? That’s no argument at all!

    Al Quran when read in historical context of the revelation, cannot be used against Islam, if you find verses that can then you are misinterpreting them.

    Mr Barry said:

    You quoted Some hadiths which you said were nonsense…yet the reasons your buddies used to justify them as nonsense were even more nonsensical…and betrayed basic flaws in not just the understanding of Arabic language but common sense.
    Please address these Hadiths again and explain clearly why they are absurd..and use the quran too to explain why they are absurd (as far as i know the quran doesn’t say anything about the wearing of broken sandals, so that is not reason to dispute the hadiths good advise!).

    It matters not if the Hadith are good, bad or indifferent, Allah clearly states that Al Quran is complete perfect and fully detailed, and asks what you will believe in after its revelation, read the verses above. Anything which distracts you from Al Quran or Divine revelation is bad, surely you don’t think that mending a broken sandal is important to saving your soul do you?

    Mr Barry said:

    So if nobody is a scholar, we should not have any opinion, except yours which is only an opinion, an opinion that is based on internet learning.

    I am not saying you have to believe what I say or follow it, but I am not going to sit idly by while you continue to propagate the Hadith lies and fabrications. Every body is entitled to their own opinion, Allah quite clearly states:

    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. 2:256

    Mr Barry said:

    This idea that we all have equal rights and capability to access truth is absolutely anthises to the way of every single religious society….

    Yes very true, every religious society has corrupted Gods Divine revelations and gone their own way. Allah clearly has given Al Quran to all of Mankind, such that they all may benefit from its teaching All of Mankind have equal rights to access its truth!

    A Book We have sent down to thee, Blessed, that men possessed of minds may ponder its signs and so remember. 38:29

    Certainly We have revealed to you a Book in which is your good remembrance; what! do you not then understand? 21:10

    As to equal capability, well you appear to be living proof that not everybody has that capability

    Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks. 47:24

    Mr Barry said:

    According to the Quran itself Muhammad was a mere mortal, nothing special at all and certainly no scholar. If the Quran is to be the only source then Adam is much more knowledgeable than Muhammad as Allah `taught him the name of all things’. Even the figure assumed to be Khidr in the Quran, has more knowledge than Muhammad, as he knew a lot more than even Moses.!
    It is only through the Hadith that you can get credibility for the belief that Muhammed was the most knowledgeable.

    Exactly my point about Hadith corruption, If Allah says as you suggest that “Adam is much more knowledgeable than Muhammad as Allah `taught him the name of all things” Why would you be searching in manmade stories for ways of elevating him past this level. Is not what Allah has given you sufficient to accertain The Prophets character?

    Mr Barry said:

    So in this line you quote Hadith to discredit Hadith.

    No this was to prove that you do not uphold your own hadith, There are so many contradictions in them that you have to pick and choose what is supportive of your doctrine:

    Allah says:
    Will they not ponder on the Quran? Had it not come from someone other than God, they would have certainly found therein many contradictions. 4:82

    These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. God never authorized such. They only follow conjecture, and personal desire, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
    Or shall man have what he wishes?
    53:23-24

    Mr Barry said

    :..i also learned that the idea of rejecting the
    Hadith literature originates from a Jew (how surprising) named:

    Wrong again, the idea for rejection of Hadith is from Allah.
    The four rightly guided caliphs also upheld The Prophets ban on Hadith, or are you conveniently forgetting that as well Mr Barry.

    A typical response from a hadith supporter, you try to discredit my knowledge, my sources, my character, and now try and connect my beliefs with a Jewish scholar to try and discredit me further. Again you will have to do better than that Mr Barry.

    As to accusing me of being a Christian Missionary, perhaps you should read some of my other posts, I am just as hard on the followers of the Jewish and Christian faith who have deviated from their Divine revelation.

    I am one who simply believes in God, and wishes for all believers to return to their God given revelation and espouse the corruption of manmade deviations.

    Peace

  8. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Mr Barry,

    Just one more correction for you, you said:

    Khalefa then proceeded to claim himself a prophet, the final one …and was shunned by the muslim world… he was stabbed to death in Egypt.

    Correct on the first part, which is why I follow only God’s word.

    Rasid Khalifa was actually stabbed to death on the January 31, 1990 in the Masjid Tucson, Arizona, America. If you can’t even check the correctness of such a recent even and get it right, Why do you even bother with events that took place 1400 years ago?

    And you wonder why I won’t share my sources with you?

    Peace

  9. Barry Prima says:

    when you are asking supporters of hadith for an explanation?

    That is not the criteria whether they support a hadith or not the criteria is knowing with a certain degree of knowledge that the person you are referring to is qualified to make a commentary about the Arabic language. The Hadith is not something that is important to me in itself as I said my problem is not your rejection of hadith but your methodology and the implications of it which betray an agenda whether you are aware of it or not.

    The point is Mr Barry, Allah was not created, Allah simply exists, Allah is not part of a pair and thus has no need to be either gender

    Never dispute that either if you could understand what I wrote, you are completely missing the point, that Allah has to be a he in his relation to us in the quran not in his essence.

    MY WORDS: SO why is god a he not a she in the quran? IN THE QURAN….NOT IN HIS ESSENCE

    Allah has to represent himself in his ayat to us in one form or another otherwise he would be unrepresented in his creation, all the forms show god in one aspect or quality (hence the 99 names), all these qualities have to be either male or female god has to be something or another in relation to us, otherwise how would we relate to him or how would he create the world?

    Spoken with a true Patriachal Bias

    Spoken with a certain degree of honesty and understanding of the nature of the created world it’s not my fault god is forced to use a masculine gender in the Quran it’s his if anyone’s, the thing is I don’t need to apologize for god and can accept the quran as it is without feeling that I have compromised his absoluteness with your methodology (well you don’t have one, you cut and paste) you can’t, hence the apologetics AND GRAMMATICAL diversions that simply do not get to the root of the issue!

    Apparently unsatisfied with a grammatical explanation to his question

    Unsatisifed because it doesn’t explain the key issue which is the use of relativity in the terms used in the quran by Allah himself, you keep avoiding the crux of the matter which is that that the nature of language and relationships between the creator and creation involves duality and multiplicty

    it is not that it doesn’t agree with me, it just doesn’t agree with Allahs words.

    Nope the words you put into allah’s mouth, due to your own agenda.

    Wrong again, the idea for rejection of Hadith is from Allah.

    Do you really want to discuss the verses you say actually prove this? Even the english translations you use, don’t suggest this it is an implication you are imposing on them.
    Besides are you a fluent Arabic speaker, are the conclusions you reached based on the research of fluent arabic speakers?
    That is only one part of the criteria….if you cannot even satisfy that….there is nothing to debate really is there?

    No this was to prove that you do not uphold your own hadith, There are so many contradictions in them that you have to pick and choose what is supportive of your doctrine:

    No one has ever concluded that they should uphold every hadith or denied there is contradiction what a ridiculous default argument in fact if the hadith compilers were so evil and concerned about their agendas they would have been very careful to take out hadiths like this which compromise them.

    Of course we all choose interpretations based on what is supportive of our doctrine as do you yet you are so unaware of your own fallacy and sense of self righteouness that you can’t even see that.

    Besides the whole question of what is valid and what is not is based ultimately what your idea of reality is.

    I am just as hard on the followers of the Jewish and Christian faith who have deviated from their Divine revelation.

    As I said that doesn’t mean anything sheep in wolfs clothing, let the jews and christians decide what they have and haven’t deviated from, you are not even considered knowledgable in your own religion, never mind others.

    I am one who simply believes in God, and wishes for all believers to return to their God given revelation and espouse the corruption of manmade deviations.

    How high and mighty, your ideology is also a man made one, as much as anyone else’s and furthermore it is based on a supreme conviction of your own rightness and the wrongness of as I said hundreds of years of scholars and saints.

    Rasid Khalifa was actually stabbed to death on the January 31, 1990 in the Masjid Tucson, Arizona, America.

    Thanks for correcting me what’s important is he was stabbed to death like I said I am not great authority on this matter and I just looked this up recently on the internet and not because I objected initially to your rejection of Hafith but your claim to superiority over the great figures of Islam.

    And you wonder why I won’t share my sources with you?

    Yes I do if youv’e got nothing to hide give it up you never mention your sources ever.

    It is very obvious that all your sources are from the internet, which is your sheikh and wali.

    Please be wary my brother that you do not fall into the trap of using the words of men as religious guidance

    So Khafi no one is a scholar yet if you want to read the Quran you have to rely on Scholars those who compiled and organised it first (they were men too ) and then those who translated it for your non Arab speaking self (they were men too).
    In order to interpret it by yourself you also introduce ideas about reality right and wrong, based on the finding and conclusions of other scholars (they were men too) and your idea of right and wrong based on the world around you and personal experience (you are a man also I assume)

    So you have to trust in Scholarship at some point and your whole pack of cards collapses in a heap.

    Khafi if you are a muslim you are a very gullible one you are doing the Anti religious and Ant Islamist job for them.

  10. Barry Prima says:

    If you can’t even check the correctness of such a recent even and get it right

    Because these aren’t the words of Allah or muhammed…and they don’t matter to me much.
    I don’t even bother to check the correctness of hadith either (as I have no wish to be an expert on them) unless I come up with one that doesn’t make sense in which case I refer to someone more knowledgable than me and someone whose moral and spiritual character I can vouch for.

    Why would you be searching in manmade stories for ways of elevating him past this level.
    espèce d’idiot, you are the one who claimed that Muhammed is the only scholar (along with Allah, not me) I’m saying the quran has no basis for this statement of yours and the criteria you use (quran only) would suggest adam has more knowledge than Muhammed!

    The Prophet himself fordid their writing and collection

    In the Hadith you don’t believe in!!!

    You don’t think that mending a broken sandal is important to saving your soul do you?

    But its good advise what would you think of someone who walked around with a broken shoe more importantly what would it show about him as a person. Islam is din a way of life not just an abstract belief an abstract belief is not iman it is belief.
    Din and iman are grounded in reality of things which is reflected in all aspects of persons being.

    The four rightly guided caliphs also upheld The Prophets ban on Hadith, or are you conveniently forgetting that as well Mr Barry.

    So how do you know this I assume it’s from the Hadith or historians not the quran and once again you are forced eat from that which you have puked out.

    Allah clearly states that Al Quran is complete perfect and fully detailed, and asks what you will believe in after its revelation, read the verses above.

    You keep repeating the argument without clearly giving an exgesis no the ayats that support your interpretation (of those who you have copied and pasted, more accurately)

  11. sputjam says:

    My dear brother Elijah,

    Only God can guide you. But only if you seek.

    Coming from Pakistan, I can understand your religious upbringing.

    The islam of today is not that of mohamed, as the christians of today are not that of Jesus.

    Jesus and Mohamed were against any form of idol worship.

    Who built the churches and mosques, collect taxes from their followers, and place themselves as the voice of god or speak on behalf of God if not for the imams and priests.

    Then you must ask, who appoint these priests and imams?

    Are we instructed to listen to them? Why are we not suppose to question their authority?

    He has prescribed for you the same way of life enjoined upon Noah, and what is revealed herein, and what was decreed for Abraham, Moses and Jesus. You shall uphold the one way of life and not be divided. It is simply too difficult for the idol-worshippers to accept what you advocate. God is the one who brings towards Him whomever He wills. He guides towards Himself those who return. (42:13)

    we are not suppose to mimick Mohamed as he was a mere messenger and mortal. We are suppose to fully understand the messages in the koran and obey. Only then can you acheive Peacefulness and bliss.

    I hope that will help.

  12. ~tanty~ says:

    My Goodness,

    Barry, when will you realize that you have lost the battle against Khafi. Your arguments are just nonsense and weak.
    BTW, are you the one that used to be an actor or just another guy with the same name.

  13. Barry Prima says:

    Your arguments are just nonsense and weak.

    My what a deep and meaningful critique brings a lot to the debate doesn’t it like I said Khafi and his Anti Hadith modernist clique appeal to those who have no depth.

    Seems being a member of the khafi fan club you had made you mind up anyway ignoring the very basic fact that khafi cannot speak arabic, does not have any source for his Knowledge apart from the internet and has still not answered the very basic issues that lie at the heart of the matter.

    BTW, are you the one that used to be an actor or just another guy with the same name.

    The mere fact you have to ask such a question, really says a lot about your perception of reality!

  14. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Mr Barry said:

    MY WORDS: SO why is god a he not a she in the quran? IN THE QURAN….NOT IN HIS ESSENCE

    I have explained this twice already, it is because Arabic has no neutral gender pronoun! I will repeat the link from ISLAMIC VOICE:

    The Arabic word ‘Allah’ has no gender. The Arabic grammar has only two genders, male and female and male gender is of two types:

    1.Masculine Haqeeqi i.e. Real, which is used to denote the masculine gender in humans, animals.

    2. Masculine Majazi i.e. Unreal, wherein it is used as Masculine but in reality it is not so e.g. (Angels) Malak, Layl (Night), Bab (door). The word Allah (swt), too falls in the second category i.e. Masculine Majazi.

    The English language has got three genders; male, female and neutral. So if we translate the Arabic word ‘huwa’ into English, it can be translated as ‘he’ or ‘it’. And the Arabic word ‘hiya’ can be translated as ‘she’ or ‘it’.

    Allah (swt) is unique and cannot be referred as ‘it’ in English, since Allah (swt) has no gender, neither male, nor female or neutral.

    Some people may argue that the Arabic word ‘huwa’ and ‘hiya’ both can be used for ‘it’ or neutral gender, then why Allah has used ‘huwa’ and not ‘hiya’?

    In Arabic grammar there are certain rules and criteria for feminine gender. First, if it is female by nature, like the word mother (ummun), it becomes feminine in gender. Allah is not a female. Second, if it ends with the third Arabic letter ‘ta’ like ‘mirwahtun’ (fan), it becomes feminine. The Arabic word ‘Allah’ doesn’t end with ‘ta’ so it cannot be feminine. Third, if the word ends with ‘Alif Mamduda’ (big Alif), it becomes feminine. But the Arabic word ‘Allah’ doesn’t end with ‘Alif Mamduda’ so, it cannot be feminine. And lastly, if the object occurs in pairs, like pairs of the body, e.g. ‘Ainun’ (eyes), ‘yadun’ (hands), they are considered feminine. But Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, chapter 112, verse 1:

    “Say: He is Allah the ONE and Only;”

    So Allah (swt) is one and not a pair. Therefore, by default since it cannot be used as ‘Hiya’ i.e. she or it, Allah (swt) uses huwa i.e. He. And Allah (swt) knows the best.

    You can check his authors credentials at the Islamic Research Foundation website if you wish.

    I said:
    No this was to prove that you do not uphold your own hadith, There are so many contradictions in them that you have to pick and choose what is supportive of your doctrine:

    Mr Barry said:

    No one has ever concluded that they should uphold every hadith or denied there is contradiction……….

    Allah asks:
    “What is the matter with you? How do you judge?
    Or have you a book wherein you read
    That you shall surely have therein what you choose?”
    68:36-38

    I said:
    I am one who simply believes in God, and wishes for all believers to return to their God given revelation and espouse the corruption of manmade deviations.

    Mr Barry replied:

    How high and mighty, your ideology is also a man made one, as much as anyone else’s and furthermore it is based on a supreme conviction of your own rightness and the wrongness of as I said hundreds of years of scholars and saints.

    It is not manmade, it is from Allah. Allah chastises the Jews, and the Christians against their corruption of what He gave them, and gives plenty of warnings in Al Quran against corruption which would find its way into that message, it is people like you and the so called scholars you follow who propagate these falsehoods.

    Mr Barry said:

    espèce d’idiot, you are the one who claimed that Muhammed is the only scholar (along with Allah, not me)

    Wrong Mr Barry: I said:They are not really scholars, one is Allah as illustrated above, The other is The Prophet himself.
    anybody can check this, the posting is still there!

    Mr Barry said:

    I’m saying the quran has no basis for this statement of yours

    What statement Mr Barry? You seemed to have rambled a little bit and I don’t really understand what you are trying to say.

    Mr Barry said:

    and the criteria you use (quran only) would suggest adam has more knowledge than Muhammed!

    Yes Mr Barry you already pointed that out once when you said:

    According to the Quran itself Muhammad was a mere mortal, nothing special at all and certainly no scholar. If the Quran is to be the only source then Adam is much more knowledgeable than Muhammad as Allah `taught him the name of all things’. Even the figure assumed to be Khidr in the Quran, has more knowledge than Muhammad, as he knew a lot more than even Moses.!
    It is only through the Hadith that you can get credibility for the belief that Muhammed was the most knowledgeable.

    I then asked you:
    Exactly my point about Hadith corruption, If Allah says as you suggest that “Adam is much more knowledgeable than Muhammad as Allah `taught him the name of all things” Why would you be searching in manmade stories for ways of elevating him past this level. Is not what Allah has given you sufficient to accertain The Prophets character?

    Islam is about submission to Allah, not glorifying The Prophet!

    I said:
    The four rightly guided caliphs also upheld The Prophets ban on Hadith, or are you conveniently forgetting that as well Mr Barry.

    Mr Barry replied:

    So how do you know this I assume it’s from the Hadith or historians not the quran and once again you are forced eat from that which you have puked out.

    Very colourful language Mr Barry, have you been consulting you “Lexicon of Hate” again? Yes it’s from historical sources, I am not averse to using history to place verses of Al Quran into context, or in some cases to illustrate the corruption of Islam as it is practiced by people like you.

    I said:
    Allah clearly states that Al Quran is complete perfect and fully detailed, and asks what you will believe in after its revelation, read the verses above.

    Mr Barry said:

    You keep repeating the argument without clearly giving an exgesis no the ayats that support your interpretation (of those who you have copied and pasted, more accurately)

    Those verses need no exegesis, they are example of the verses which Allah says are clear in meaning. However if you fail to understand them try looking here:

    The Authority of Al-Qur’an by Kashif Ahmed Shehzada

    @Tanty

    Assalamu Alaikum Ibu Tanty,

    If Mr Barry gives up, his life will become meaningless and empty. He doesn’t appear to be spiritually strong enough to realise that to achieve true enlightenment he has to throw off all of the traditions and religious beliefs he has blindly swallowed, and simply believe in God, believe in the day of judgement, and do good deeds.

    Peace

  15. Baryy Prima says:

    Khafi.

    Still waiting for you to answer the key questions,ie :Who made those commentaries about the hadith, please explain again why they are nonsense in the light of what I have said as well as explain how you can reach understanding of Quran without at some point refering to scholars.

    I have explained this twice already, it is because Arabic has no neutral gender pronoun

    You haven’t explained anything.

    I repeat again, that means he has to be either masculine or feminine, he or she and thus cannot be portrayed neutrally so why does that result in the articulation of Allah as he, not she??

    You simply do not resolve the problem!

    How do you judge

    How long is piece of string? How do you judge which footballer is the best. Does the Quran tell you that? There are lots of matters the Quran doesn’t deal with and that’s where the Hadith comes in as advise and example. Simple As!

    They are not really scholars, one is Allah as illustrated above, The other is The Prophet himself.

    So what does this mean, other than there are no scholars just Allah and the Prophet??

    What statement Mr Barry?

    The above statement that One is Allah and the other is the prophet or do have a problem getting from a to b?

    Islam is about submission to Allah…

    No disputing that however what is the point of the second Shahadah? Is it just there for the sake of it? How do you Submit, what is submission, what is fitra?? All big issues!
    The second part reintegrates the human being into the first part, by way of the prophets persona and that is why the prophets personal life and example are important otherwise there would be nothing to really distinguish Islam from other religions!

    Yes it’s from historical sources

    You deny the legitimacy of Hadith because they are not historically accurate so how can you validate this statement without recourse to historical resources and scholars that are also from the same time of course you pick and choose, depending on your viewpoint.
    The is not from the quran so why do you believe it, and not the hadith? Your argument fails on the terms which you yourself set!

    they are example of the verses which Allah says are clear in meaning

    So there lots of verses that are not clear? Make you mind up will you!

    He doesn’t appear to be spiritually strong enough to realise that to achieve true enlightenment he has to throw off all of the traditions and religious beliefs he has blindly swallowed, and simply believe in God, believe in the day of judgement, and do good deeds.

    Big Assumptions from a man who has swallowed internet propaganda. I have no problem with what you want to believe, I have a problem when you start insulting the heritage of Islam and the generations of mystics and scholars who you claim were not just misguided but evil and corrupt that’s and the implications of your reductionism, which seeks to destroy a whole civilization and culture.

    Islam is din as your cheerleader tanty said, din is a way of being belief in one god and submission to him has to be actualised in all aspects of self not just held to be some abstract belief your own body parts will testify against you when you leave this earth your rational mind wont be able to say the shahdah and it will be in a domain where it is no longer effective.

    To achieve true enlightenment

    True enlightenment will not come from copy and paste from the internet.

  16. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Bu Tanty yth,

    Barry is a typical Bule with an imperialist mindset. A brown man trashing him in his own language and showing him the way to enlightenment must be humiliating. Hence, he has to triumph whatever it takes. He was caught with his pant down i.e cut n paste with error, but had the cheek to make light of his goof. My last engagement with him, he boasted that he was well versed in Arabic and I had no reason to doubt him. Now I just realised he is a bulls**t artist. This man know not a sentence of arabic and had to rely on others. I know enough arabic to read the quran, and would not consider myself well versed in arabic. I can bet I know more arabic than this bule traitor.

  17. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Brother Elijah

    sputjam Says:

    January 6th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
    My dear brother Elijah,

    Only God can guide you. But only if you seek.

    Coming from Pakistan, I can understand your religious upbringing.

    Ho ho ho .. from Pakistan 🙂 Where is my curry recipe? You Paki owe me one.

  18. Barry Prima says:

    Now I just realised he is a bulls**t

    It took your bullshit detector that long and I thought you were smart.

    It seems you are becoming obsessed with me an have to refer to me in almost all you post its funny how you have to keep imagining me in highly inventive new forms so your stereotypes and prejudices can continue to remain valid whilst I just sit back and laugh at how wide of the mark you keep going.
    A good teacher always keeps the student guessing I knew from the beginning not to show you all my cards, it would be more entertaining besides it looks you have enough racial/religious hangups as it is,

  19. Debby says:

    Geez, sorry I was busy so I’m kinda late replying.
    @ Bro Kahfi
    That is exactly I’m talking about. Allah is not a man nor a woman. If we read Quran arabic version, the word ”Allah” has no gender. So why in the God’s name, if it’s in English, the word will become He. Of course, everybody knows ‘He’ is a male pronoun, or do you want to challenge that brother? We have other choices: Lord, God, The One, instead of He/Him. And I know about Arabic ‘huwa’or ‘hiya’, believe me. I live there. I myself think we should revise translation of Quran in English version. I prefer Indonesian actually, coz Indonesian has Dia/Nya.

    @ Brother Barry
    May Allah always be with you, and shows you the way. I really hope Allah will give you strength and patience. But brother, we do not need to convince those who can’t or won’t be. I hope you understand what I mean.

    Al Hujurat [49:10]
    “The believers are nothing else than brothers. So make reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers, and fear Allah that ye may receive mercy.

  20. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Mr Barry said:

    Still waiting for you to answer the key questions,ie :Who made those commentaries about the hadith, please explain again why they are nonsense in the light of what I have said as well as explain how you can reach understanding of Quran without at some point refering to scholars.

    There have been many, many people who have made those comments about hadith. Simply search and you will find, I am certainly not going to waste my time on disclosing the sources to you as you have clearly demonstrated and inability to think outside of your brainwashed conditioning.

    One only needs to read them to realise that they are nonsense, I don’t need to reappraise them in the light of what you have said because you have also used nonsense to explain them. a jumbled mishmash of hadith, hindu inspired yogic teachings, and a hadith corrupted understanding of the classical Arabic language.

    Allah places the understanding of message of Al Quran into the hearts of those who believe. He has clearly stated that in Al Quran, he also states quite clearly that there are verses which only he understands, and that only those in whose hearts is perversity will seek to understand them. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend.

    Mr Barry said:

    You haven’t explained anything.

    I repeat again, that means he has to be either masculine or feminine, he or she and thus cannot be portrayed neutrally so why does that result in the articulation of Allah as he, not she??

    You simply do not resolve the problem!

    No Mr Barry, you have simply not understood anything about basic Classical Arabic Grammar, or even English Grammar.

    I have tried three times to explain this to you and you simply fail to comprehend it, I have to assume that you are one of those whom Allah has placed a veil over their hearts.

    “As to those who reject Faith it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes is a veil great is the penalty they incur.” 2:6-7

    “And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Quran, and deafness into their ears: when thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Quran, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth)”. 17:46

    Mr Barry said:

    How do you judge

    How long is piece of string? How do you judge which footballer is the best. Does the Quran tell you that? There are lots of matters the Quran doesn’t deal with and that’s where the Hadith comes in as advise and example. Simple As!

    Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah, when He it is Who has sent down to you the Book fully explained. And those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by thy Lord with truth, so be not thou of the disputers. 6:114

    Does your hadith tell you who is the best footballer? Or how long a piece of string is? The fact that Al Quran doesn’t explain lots of things means that those things are not important to saving your soul! If Allah had thought it important he would have said so in Al Quran, he doesn’t!

    I said:

    They are not really scholars, one is Allah as illustrated above, The other is The Prophet himself.

    Mr Barry replied

    So what does this mean, other than there are no scholars just Allah and the Prophet??

    As I said Mr Barry both Allah in Al Quran, and The Prophet, in historical records of his last sermon (witnessed by thousands of people, yet still recorded in three versions to suit different sects), warned against hadith!

    I said:
    Islam is about submission to Allah.

    Mr Barry said:

    No disputing that however what is the point of the second Shahadah? Is it just there for the sake of it? How do you Submit, what is submission, what is fitra?? All big issues!

    Second Shadah Mr Barry? There is only one Shadah, “L? ilaha illa al-L?h” or “There is no god but God”, The second part is an addition by the followers of hadith. We are told in Al Quran that we are to follow the deen of Nabi Ibrahim, do you really think that Nabi Ibrahim used to add “Muhammadun ras?lu l-L?h” ?

    Allah says:

    God bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the Angels, and those with knowledge, He is standing with justice. There is no god but Him, the Noble, the Wise. 3:18

    Say: Allah speaks the truth; so follow the deen of Abraham, the upright one. And he was not one of the polytheists. 3:95

    Mr Barry additionally said:

    The second part reintegrates the human being into the first part, by way of the prophets persona and that is why the prophets personal life and example are important otherwise there would be nothing to really distinguish Islam from other religions

    Here Mr Barry you have missed the whole point of Islam in that it is the only deen given by Allah, It is not Yahudi, Christianity, nor Mohammedanism, it has existed certainly from the time of Nabi Ibrahim, and possibly before.

    Allah says:
    It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). 3:3

    Mr Barry said:

    You deny the legitimacy of Hadith because they are not historically accurate so how can you validate this statement without recourse to historical resources and scholars that are also from the same time of course you pick and choose, depending on your viewpoint.
    The is not from the quran so why do you believe it, and not the hadith? Your argument fails on the terms which you yourself set!

    Once again it was put there for your benefit, you are the beleiver in Hadith, not me.

    I feel sure that despite all of the corruption that has crept into Hadith that some may possibly be true, however, I will not base my deen on then as Allah has told me that the complete, perfect, and fully detailed Quran is sufficient for me.

    I said:
    “they are example of the verses which Allah says are clear in meaning”

    Mr Barry replied:

    So there lots of verses that are not clear? Make you mind up will you!

    I didn’t say that at all Mr Barry, however Allah says:

    “It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise they are the foundation of the Book and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, “We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord.” And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.” 3:7

    Mr Barry said:

    I have a problem when you start insulting the heritage of Islam and the generations of mystics and scholars who you claim were not just misguided but evil and corrupt that’s and the implications of your reductionism, which seeks to destroy a whole civilization and culture.

    It happened to the Jews, it happened to the Christians, what makes you so sure that it hasn’t happened to mainstream Islam. Just look around you!

    Islamic civilisation and culture started to die when your beloved Hadith started to come to the fore. The great days of Islamic culture and civilisation were the days of The Prophet and later through to Al Andalus, where knowledge, learning, arts and science flourished. Ignorance, intolerance and hatred are the ultimate result of your Hadith, not civilisation and culture.

    Peace

  21. ET says:

    Mohammad Khafi,

    It is even possible if one studies the earliest Hindu scriptures which emphasis one God, rather than the present plethora of Gods which they worship to include the earliest Hindu’s as Muslim.

    Sorry to intrude as I have no intention to enter this discussion because it seems to me like taking water to the sea. But just for the record, the earliest Hindu or Vedic scriptures didn’t emphasize one God but a plethora of deities. The monist concept of ‘brahman’ as the ultimate reality from which everything emanates (which is not the same as creation) is a later development. The former deities however continued to exist as manifestations of this ultimate reality. It is a characteristic feature of Hindu philosophy not to reject former concept or beliefs but rather incorporate them into newer insights and developments of thought and science.

    I just wanted to straighten it out.

  22. Cukurungan says:

    The great days of Islamic culture and civilisation were the days of The Prophet and later through to Al Andalus, where knowledge, learning, arts and science flourished.

    What does mean flourishing civilization, science and art for the Andalusia Muslim, if it was only the end -up on the extermination and annihilations of their own existence. Learn from those fault, Muslim Indonesia even we love arts and dangdut we will keep FPI and laskar Jihad alive just in case.

    It happened to the Jews, it happened to the Christians, what makes you so sure that it hasn’t happened to mainstream Islam. Just look around you!.

    Wow a religion narcissus strike back, every one is wrong …Ustadz is wrong, Priest is wrong and Monk is wrong and it is only me who know and understand the true of GOD WORD

  23. Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother Khafi

    You said:

    Islamic civilisation and culture started to die when your beloved Hadith started to come to the fore.

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-‘As ra:

    I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah saaws.I intended to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah saaws is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah saaws.He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud :: Book 25 : Hadith 3639

    You said

    As I said Mr Barry both Allah in Al Quran, and The Prophet, in historical records of his last sermon (witnessed by thousands of people, yet still recorded in three versions to suit different sects), warned against hadith!

    Brother Khafi, as far as I have undesrtood, the word ‘al-hadith’ referred to in Quran doesn’t necessarily refer to al-Hadith Al-Rasool saaws as a Muslim would think while reciting al-Quran. At times, the word is used even to refer to Quran itself.

    Allahu nazzala ahsana alhadeethi kitaban mutashabihan mathaniya taqshaAAirru minhu juloodu allatheena yakhshawna rabbahum thumma taleenu julooduhum waquloobuhum ila thikri Allahi thalika huda Allahi yahdee bihi man yashao waman yudlili Allahu fama lahu min hadin Az-Zumar [39:23]

    Afabihatha alhadeethi antum mudhinoona Al-Waqi’a [56:81]

    Afamin hatha alhadeethi taAAjaboona An-Najm [53:59]

    Falyatoo bihadeethin mithlihi in kanoo sadiqeena At-Tur [52:34]

    I have found the two of the three narrations you referred to.
    The one is in Musnad Ahmad ( Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal ra) and one in Muwatta Malik (Imam Malik ra). May Allah help so that I find the third one mentioning Ahlul Bait. I don’t have any evidence that they are different accounts of the same saying rather they are different narrations by different narrators possibly at different occasions. Hence, the superficial resemblance of two proven authentic Hadiths does not imply two different accounts.

  24. Mohammed Khafi says:

    @Debby

    Debby said:

    Of course, everybody knows ‘He’ is a male pronoun, or do you want to challenge that brother?

    Sister Debby, of course I will not challenge that , but “He” is used here as an epicene pronoun as there is no alternative in the English language. You will have to go back and read my earlier posts, “He” as used in English translation in this case, is an epicene or genderless pronoun, it neither denotes or confers any gender. This is a fact of English Grammar, many linguists are not happy with this situation, but that is the way that the English language has developed.

    @ET

    ET Said:

    But just for the record, the earliest Hindu or Vedic scriptures didn’t emphasize one God but a plethora of deities.

    I admit to not really knowing much about the Hindu faith, but I assume that the deities you mean are the likes of Agni, Indra, Mitra, Dyaus, Varuna, Yama?

    But doesn’t the Rig Veda also say?:

    He is One Supreme Entity
    Whom sages call by various names
    Such as Indra, the glorious
    Mitra, the benign friend
    Varuna, the greatest, the noblest
    Agni, the resplendent, the bright
    Yama, the dispenser of justice
    Matarishwa, the almighty”.

    @ Elijah

    Waalaikum Salam Brother Elijah,

    Your quoted Hadith simply illustrates the contradictions contained within Hadith. There are Hadith which say The Prophet banned people from writing down his Hadith, and there are Hadith which say that he allowed it. Which do you choose? Allah says that his book is complete, perfect and fully detailed, he says that if it were from other than Allah, people would find in it many contradictions. This for me is confirmation that Hadith are certainly not from Allah.

    Your verse from Al Quran, are very apt once again, illustrating that The Hadith of Allah are all we need for guidance, please read a little futher in Az-Zumar to this:

    Is not Allah sufficient for His servant? And they seek to frighten you with those besides Him; and whomsoever Allah makes err, there is no guide for him. 39:36

    A little further reading in Al-Waqi’a and you will find this:

    This is the absolute Truth and certainty. 56:95

    Your verse from At-Tur 52:34 says:

    Let them produce a Hadith like this, if they are truthful.

    Do you think the fabricators of Hadith have produced a Hadith like those of Allah, they cannot compare!

    May Almighty Allah bless your search for the truth.

    Peace

  25. Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother Khafi
    I have a point in my mind:

    If it is not impossible for thousands of Sahaaba raa to memorise letter by letter the thousands of the Aayaat of al-Quran, 700 of the Huffaaaz died in the battle against Musaylama, it is not impossible too for each of them to memorise sayings of Rasoolullah saaws far fewer in number for the most of the Sahaaba raa.

    If they had not considered it obligatory they would not have learned, memorised, documented and taught everything Rasoolullah saaws taught in twenty three years till the day of his demise to the Tabiun raa.

  26. Mohammed Khafi says:

    Waalaikum Salaam, Brother Elijah,

    I am sure that what you say has an element of truth, no doubt some of The Prophets God given wisdom did survive in the mass of Hadith, but how do you with any certainty divine which are his and which are fabrications? Allah has only promised to protect His Divine Revelation, nothing more, nothing less.

    But….. This is missing the main point, which is that Allah repeatedly tells us that He alone is sufficient!

    ” Two men from among the God-fearing, upon whom Allah had bestowed His Grace said: “Assault them [the enemy] from the [proper] gate. Once you are in, victory will be yours. And depend upon Allah, if you truly believe” 5:23

    ” For Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts and when His verses are recited to them, they [the verses] increase their faith and they put their trust in their Rabb, Alone” 8:2

    ” Oh, Prophet! Sufficient for you is Allah, and for those who follow you among the Believers” 8:64

    And whoever places his trust in Allah, Sufficient is He for him, for Allah will surely accomplish His Purpose: For verily, Allah has appointed for all things a due proportion” 65:3

    ” [There were] those to whom people said: “The people are gathering against you, so fear them.” But it only increased their faith; they said: “For us Allah is Sufficient and He is the best Disposer of affairs” 3:173

    The Jews were given Taurat, but follow Talmud, the Christians were given Injeel (the verbal Word of God in Nabi Isa), but follow New Testament, Allah has once more graced Mankind, with Al Quran, but unfortunately most of those who profess to follow this latest revelation follow Hadith instead.

    Peace

  27. sputjam says:

    AAB misunderstood-

    Ho ho ho .. from Pakistan Where is my curry recipe? You Paki owe me one.

    Barry Prima Says

    :

    Just to set thing right, I am not from Pakistan. The Pakistani is Elijah, the elf. He read too many fairy tales and now beleives in it.
    I love Pakistani food though. Good old Mughal stuff. Kashmiri buriyani and some chapattis. Yummy.
    Just had some nice Thai food yesterday. Also excellent. Three flavoured fish, mango salad, sea food Tom Yums and some fluffy egg dish. Nice light and airy.

    Adios!

  28. Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother Khafi

    May Allah bless all Muslims with the Imaan you mentioned of in the Surah al-Anfaal:2

    Innama almuminoona allatheena itha thukira Allahu wajilat quloobuhum waitha tuliyat AAalayhim ayatuhu zadathum eemanan waAAala rabbihim yatawakkaloona

    And the Tawakkul you mentioned of in Surah Aal-Imran:173

    Allatheena qala lahumu alnnasu inna alnnasa qad jamaAAoo lakum faikhshawhum fazadahum eemanan waqaloo hasbuna Allahu waniAAma alwakeelu

    You mentioned:

    but how do you with any certainty divine which are his and which are fabrications?

    This is exactly the reason the discipline of al-Ilm ul-Usool ul-Hadith or al-Ilm ad-Diraayat al-Hadith evolved beginning with as-Sahaaba raa, the example of which can never be found throughout human history. I believe that if the standards of Sihhah of Sanad are applied to history and journalism, there wouldn’t be any false report left unidentified and we would never be able find in newspares and media except the facts and the truth.

    Hazrat Jabir bin Abdullah razi Allahu anhu (raa) travelled a month long to learn only a single al-Hadith an-Nabawi from Hazrat Abdullah bin Unais raa. Hazrat Abu Huraira raa was one of the greatest Muhaddithin among the Sahaaba raa. He had a student Imam Hammaam bin Munabbih rahmat ul-llah whose Sahifa the original manuscript still survives like the Sanaa manuscript of al-Quran you mentioned. However, I don’t think that Hifaazah (The Protection) requires a manuscript as such.

    You mentioned:

    The Jews were given Taurat, but follow Talmud, the Christians were given Injeel (the verbal Word of God in Nabi Isa), but follow New Testament, Allah has once more graced Mankind, with Al Quran, but unfortunately most of those who profess to follow this latest revelation follow Hadith instead.

    I would never follow anything other than al-Quran. However, I have the conviction that there can never be a Hadith that has a Sanad which is Saheeh, and it cannot be reconciled with another that has a Sanad which is Saheeh or al-Quran.

    That’s why, Imam Abu Hanifa raa had suggested to his followers not to follow him if he says anything against al-Quran or al-Hadith as-Saheeh as is evident from the verses.

    An-Nisa [4:59]
    fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin faruddoohu ila Allahi waalrrasooli in kuntum tuminoona biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri thalika khayrun waahsanu taweelan
    If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

    An-Nisa [4:65]
    Fala warabbika la yuminoona hatta yuhakkimooka feema shajara baynahum thumma la yajidoo fee anfusihim harajan mimma qadayta wayusallimoo tasleeman
    But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge( here the word hakam has been for Rasoolullah saaws also) in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

    Al-Ahzab [33:36]
    Wama kana limuminin wala muminatin itha qada Allahu warasooluhu amran an yakoona lahumu alkhiyaratu min amrihim waman yaAAsi Allaha warasoolahu faqad dalla dalalan mubeenan
    It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

  29. Pakmantri says:

    @Sputjam,

    I believe AAB did not misunderstand anything, here is his full post:

    @ Brother Elijah

    sputjam Says:

    January 6th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
    My dear brother Elijah,

    Only God can guide you. But only if you seek.

    Coming from Pakistan, I can understand your religious upbringing

    Ho ho ho .. from Pakistan 🙂 Where is my curry recipe? You Paki owe me one.

    See at the begining of the post @Brother Elijah ………….. 😀

    Salam.

  30. Elijah says:

    Assalamu Alaikum
    Brother sputjam

    He read too many fairy tales and now beleives in it.

    I don\’t mind brother, because you may have doubts about me as we live in an age of mistrust. I can never imagine to say anything other than what Rasoolullah saaws taught to the Sahaaba raa. Beacause,

    Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 106
    Narrated \’Ali raa:
    The Prophet saaws said, \”Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire.\”

    However, I would like to mention that all Muslims have a collective responsibility commanded by Allah.

    Al-Imran [3:104]
    Waltakun minkum ommatun yadAAoona ila alkhayri wayamuroona bialmaAAroofi wayanhawna AAani almunkari waolaika humu almuflihoona
    Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the successful ones.

    Al-Imran [3:110]
    Kuntum khayra ommatin okhrijat lilnnasi tamuroona bialmaAAroofi watanhawna AAani almunkari watuminoona biAllahi walaw amana ahlu alkitabi lakana khayran lahum minhumu almuminoona waaktharuhumu alfasiqoona
    Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

    As, the topic was originally Salaah, I would like to share the following with you.

    Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 1394
    Abu Huraira raa(razi Allahu anhu) reported Allah\’s Messenger saaws (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) as saying: A man\’s prayer in congregation is more valuable than twenty degrees and some above them as compared with his prayer in his house and his market, for when he performs ablution doing it well, then goes out to the mosque, and he is impelled (to do so) only by (the love of congregational) prayer, he has no other objective before him but prayer. He does not take a step without being raised a degree for it and having a sin remitted for it, till he enters the mosque, and when he is busy in prayer after having entered the mosque. the angels continue to invoke blessing on him as long as he is in his place of worship. saying: O Allah, show him mercy, and pardon him! Accept his repentance (and the angels continue this supplication for him) so long as he does not do any harm in it, or as long as he remains in the state of ablution.

    May Allah bless us all with the joy of al-Imaan and as-Salaah.

Comment on “Muslim Rituals – Salaat”.

RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2023
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact