89 Comments on “Offensive Cartoons on Websites”

1. timdog says:

   November 21, 2008 at 3:18 pm

   Before any debate of any of the issues it is worth actually considering whether or not the cartoons in question are actually funny, and whether or not they serve any satirical purpose.

   They are not; they do not.

   I say this as a serious connoisseur of satirical political cartoons – really, I am. If you asked me to come up with a list of geniuses, Steve Bell would categorically be on it.
   Here he is during the US election:
   sara.palin.us.elections

   sarahpalin.johnmccain

   Here he is again, this time on one of his detours into apolitical surrealism (he has a thing for penguins). Follow it through; there are four parts to the strip; he is a genius:
   ethicalliving.carbonemissions

   But almost none of the “Islam cartoons” have been remotely clever or in any way funny.

   And the particular cartoon in question, as linked by el Panda, is so drearily, utterly witless that the artist in question ought to be prosecuted for wasting ink.
   It might by vaguely technically adept (though it’s a derivative style and one I’m not fond of), but it does absolutely nothing in the way of satire or cleverness – things which ought to be the cartoonist’s raison d’etre.
   It is also, whether the cartoonist and the people banally guffawing with him realise it or not, simply repeating verbatim the oldest way of demonising Mohammad the West has – and tapping into a tradition that runs right back to the Medieval period. Denigrating people sexually is the easiest – and least intelligent – form of slander (see our own Purba Negoro), and this tradition was launched by a West who saw Mohammad as an infuriating infidel who, with his blasphemous ideas enraged their – wait a cotton-pickin’ minute! – RELIGIOUS SENSIBILITIES! As a denigrator of the one true path of strict Christianity he was destined for fiery hell (see what Dante did to him, with his guts hanging out in the inferno)…

   And the cartoon is not funny…

   “Well, I laughed,” some of you will doubtless crow…

   But if you are totally honest with yourself, why did you laugh?
   You laughed, not because of any innate satire or comedy in the cartoon (there is none), but because you are antipathetic to Islam, and when you saw it you knew that the cartoon was deliberately, wantonly offensive to Muslims, and that it would upset them, and that’s why it makes you laugh – not because it is clever or funny…
   If you happen to be a racist who hates black people, I can point at Barack Obama and say: “Hey! A nigger! He looks like a monkey!” and you’ll laugh. Because you’re stupid. And you know it will upset black people. That doesn’t mean I’m a talented comedian; it means I should shut up…

   I’ll gird up my loins and defend free speech, but only if it’s worth defending. This cartoon is not…

   Incidentally, of the original Danish cartoons that launched this whole bizarre Islam-cartoon connection there was just one that was a good piece of work. It was clever and subtle, and it picked up on something visual that only a talented cartoonist would ever notice. Here it is:
   http://ezralevant.com/DanishCartoon06.jpg
   The person who drew the dross on “Faith Freedom” (silly organisation; absurdly disingenuous name) would do well to take a lesson…

2. timdog says:

   November 21, 2008 at 3:23 pm

   Patung – why am I finding it impossible to post on this thread?

3. Geordie says:

   November 21, 2008 at 3:36 pm

   Barry Prima said the following: –

   All things are not equal, nor do they have equal significance, its a bit like saying, if paedophlia is sinful then all sex is sinful? What a ridiculous analogy!
   How would you feel if I parodied/insulted your mom and dad, your daughter or someone close to you? Would you still respect that as someone’s opinion? Well there are some western people in an attempt to maintain a false sense of freedom would actually say yes….they are not worthy of being called human beings.

   No Barry, you’re confusing the act of parody [of anything, I didn’t specify what] with what is beng parodied there was no analageous reference to my point; so yes I do think that your analogy is false but I wouldn’t go so far as to call it ridiculous. And I think the Buddists amongst us would indeed contend that all things special but nothing especially so can you guarantee they’re wrong? If not then is it reasonable to say what you values outweighs what I value?

   A good parady relies on the amplification of truth so it rather depends on how good you are at parody doesn’t it? But in the final analysis I’m responsible for how I feel or react to something you say or do and a patently false parody or as we in the UK prefer to say, piss take, would fail to illicit any response in all probability and lead to you being dismissed without further consideration. Now a good piss take should sting and would demand a witty riposte; should I fail and come back with mindless name calling, that would automatically indicate that the parody had some truth (albeit emphasized) in it and that I didn’t have a decent comeback. My choice then is to work on the weakness or grow a thicker hide to cope; big boys’ rules as we used to say.

   What other would you have me do in such circumstances Barry, I’m pretty handy so do I wade in? Unless you could prove your parody was true, you’d be answerable to charges of slander or libel so should I bring a suit against you? Or, as is probably the case, do I think to myself who on earth is Barry Prima to bother me? His opinion is just that, an opinion and I have neither the time or inclination to go about trying to change it.

   On another thread in IM, it’s on record that I believe the Islamic world needs to be confident about itself and, if it’s correct, it need not worry about people taking the piss. Moreover and more importantly, only in my ‘opinion’ though, is that the Islamic world needs to develop a bit of humility because it may just be possible that some other orthodoxy might be right.

   For me, just so you know, I abhore all orthodoxies which I suppose could be construed as an orthodoxy in itself but that’s a discussion for another day. In my view all orthodoxy does is vest merit/power/influence in those perceived to be the ‘most’ orthodox and become the guardians of whatever ‘truth’ they believe they represent or embody. But tell me, who guards the guardians when even a cartoon is enough to forment hate and to challenge that hate is to be considered blasphemous and open to the same hate as the artist? Look at the language you used in response to my post, you actually labelled me as sub-human, does that really sound like a snappy riposte or should you look to grow a thicker hide?

4. David says:

   November 21, 2008 at 3:57 pm

   Timdog, multiple plain urls will often trip the spam filter.

   Those cartoons can be seen here – http://s491.photobucket.com/albums/rr274/FFI_AliSina/. The weird video version of them that PB mentioned –
   
   .

5. Siti Cathyjay says:

   November 21, 2008 at 4:48 pm

   I stand corrected, not ALL muslims but MOST.

   You are not correct about anything, nor do you take a stand for anything that is based on an intelligent observation of the world.

   Rima is nice enough to discount it, but you just declare yourself as an epitome of another easily irritated Muslim. Great.

   And every good Muslim would give you their support. As a Muslim it hurts my feeling when jesus or any other prophet is insulted. If a Muslim Indonesian insulted and parodied one of the Chinese sages I’m sure all those campaigning for free speech here to insult the nabi muhammed (pbuh) would feel it is inappropriate and no doubt use it as an excuse blame once again the perennial bogeyman: Muslim fanatic!

   I remember when I was still at the university, my Muslim friends always had bemocking saying to anyone with long hair: Gonjes, which means Gondrong Jesus!
   I just remember it now, why there’s no one ever says ‘Bir Moh’ Birahi Mohammad?

   So Christian life is saying jesus can be become gay, dirty, unbeliever etc???? Doesn’t christian belief also say eye for an eye, wasn’t lots wife turned to a pillar of salt??
   Also it never says better forgive than to forbid…otherwise nothing would be forbidden in Christianity would it????

   I believe they are called Christian because they follow Chris Jesus (check somewhere in Acts: the first time the word Christian is used), so you must refer Gospel/ New Testament too.

   That’s as up to you..do you try to empathise with why those people are so hurt by your insult ( as opposed to opinion)…if you try to see if from their point of view you might learn something about your own culture/tradition..call it a kind of constructive criticism, but the thing is, the western media/pseudo intellectual classes quite often think that they have nothing to learn from Islam and their lies the root of the problem.

   You start it again. Chill out. If you think they’re wrong, then the truth will speak up itself.

6. Purba Negoro says:

   November 21, 2008 at 7:14 pm

   Roy,
   what are you talking about.

   I completely agree with Barry Prima.
   Once we start to attack the sacred it becomes profane.
   Many Catholics have the same criticism foir post Vatican II Catholic church- it has lost much of its mystique and original attraction by pandering to the worldly, mass popularism, the faddish and the fashionable.

   When I was in Australia a long time ago- an American artist Andre Serrano was doing an exhibition.
   His key work was (apologise for language) “Piss Christ” (1987), a photograph of a plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of his own urine

   This was banned in Australia too as being vilely offensive to mainstream society. And as it should be too.
   Serrano work is criticised as being superficial and devoid of deeper meaning- using the same crude shock tactics as sex sells.
   All publicity is good publicity- and how to brand oneself as unique in a crowded competitive marketplace.
   Thus it is the same with sich disrespectful and provocative (in perjorative sense) depictions of all such imagery.

   We have to accept we do not live in the rarified vacuum of academia and hypothetical. We live in a real world where real poeple are offended by other’s selfish stupidity or attention raving.

   Even in the so called land of free speech- imagine the outcry if Jewish depicted eating Arab baby- or President Washington having gay sex with Adolf Hitler. All are sacred images- all that differs is subjective context.

   How many law suits are brought annually for hate speech, libel, slander and defamation of character in the US alone?

   Proof that Freedom of Speech is not at all.

   Speech is always limited and constrained and with Freedom comes responsibility to not impinge on the rights of others.
   Freedoms are not unlimited. They do not exist in the hypothetical- they like all resources are finite and with ver real limits.

   So for idiot who shoot off their blabbing mouth about Muslims being oversensitive- do as your Yesus Kristus commands, “remove the log from your own eye before you point out the speck in mine”, “Judge not lest ye be judged”, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

   No one cares about the fashionable nature of your belief system- being agnostic, atheist or Church of Flying Spaghett Monster are not superior- they are all beliefs as well- no more or less so thn any organised religion with exactly the same format of dogma which blends very quickly into religious chauvinism the “My God is best- stronger than yours. I am more chosen than you- I am right- you are wrong I am smarter than you”.

   To not believe in God is a belief system too. If one fervently believes in “no god” all that is required to show the similarity between another faith orthodoxy is to rwmove the “no”.
   Exactly the same rigid adherence to dogma and one could easily make a case for intolerant fundamentalism as bad as any Jewish Settler, Hindui lunatic, Kashmiri suicide bomber or Branch Davidian.

   Making fun of any religion including agnosticism or atheism exactly is like implying their believers are not only utterly stupid and immature but cannot think for thesmlves.

   The reality is for all the faddisms about atheism and agnosticism- the greatest contributions to mankind have all been from religious people. The bland and profane world of man is no place for sparking ‘”uber mensche” creativity= in the true Nietzsche sense of “beyond the human” (not Nazi vulgar distortion of super man)- greater than ourselves.

   JS Bach- a devout religious man- what has he given us.
   The Romans were religious- what did they give us?
   The Greeks were very religious- what are their contributions.
   Taj Mahal, Angkor Wat, St Peter’s, Borobudur, Moon Temple, Prambanan, Temple of Athena, Pyramids of Giza, Parthenon, Michaelangelo’s Sistine CHapel- St. Basil, Australian aboriginal cave paintings, the vast pyramids of South America, most archeological finds?

   what do these of humanities greatest achievements all have in common?
   Religion.

   So this proves that religion is incredibly valuable to humanity and instead of retarding us- religion is a key inspiration for humanity to strive beyond the ordinary and indeed progress.

   Further I argue human is like a pack animal- exactly like our relative chimpanzees who need a master more powerful than ourselves so we may position ourselves within the group. The all powerful alpha in this case is God.
   In the case of agnostic/atheist- the all powerful Alpha is science.

   Sexual violence and rape as well as age inappropriate television is also banned from depiction in almost all Western society.
   Surely the advocates of such free speech and non censorship are not so stupid as to argue that we should allow all manner of degenerate content no matter the end consequence.

   So the argument for free speech without limitation is shown not only unrealistic and impractical- but end result deleterious to civil society, tolerance and law and order.
   Religion is a major element of humanity and it should be respected in accordance with Indonesian Panca Sila doctrine- 5 religions all equal, all respected.

   You no like/agree? You go away. Go make yourselves a gang of trendy outcasts.
   Simple.

7. Barry Prima says:

   November 21, 2008 at 9:21 pm

   Sorry geordie..
   I did not understand most of what you said..just imagine if you told me all that in a geordie accent? I possibly didn’t understand it, as it was nothing to do with what I said?

   This is what I did get.

   so yes I do think that your analogy is false

   I acknowledge that my analogy was not of the same type as the analogy you made, but I couldn’t be arsed to spend the time in thinking up one that was. I think the analogy I used made the point anyway, despite the difference and that was what was important….

   Now a good piss take should sting and would demand a witty riposte

   So how do I do that? Insult something close to you, like your mom, that would be the most geordie lad on the piss on saturday night response, sorry not for me, it’s not halus, you’re ethniocentric (lack of) sensibilities are alien to asian people including buddhist, see some things are sacred to us, we do no make jokes about shagging your mom, we don’t pick our noses in public, and most of all we do not jest about the prophets and out parents and ancestors.

   And I think the Buddists amongst us would indeed contend that all things special but nothing especially so can you guarantee they’re wrong?

   All is perishing save the face of Allah,there is no reality except Allah, same thing, nothing to do with argument here. You’re describing the nature of things from the perspective of god/the universe not the nature of things in the universe itself…and the relationship between things on the level of ten thousand things…this is a simple matter of manners

   A buddhist cannot insult certain things either…and in the same way he must respect certain things……he can say if you see the buddha on the road kill the buddha…but that is a respectful way of parody not insulting….

   you actually labelled me as sub-human.

   Did I? Well yes if you have no respect for your parents, daughters/sons, and feel other people have free license to insult them, especially sexually, then I would say you are acting without the dignity of a human being and I think Buddhism would concur with that. As far as I know you did not say that about yourself so I guess I didn’t call you subhuman, or if I did by implication, then I stand by it. Besides you never did answer that, instead you go into a whole dialogue about something unrelated to the point I was making.

   it’s on record that I believe the Islamic world needs to be confident about itself and, if it’s correct, it need not worry about people taking the piss.

   The argument is not about taking the piss per se or parodie…..it’s about where the limits are.
   Being confident about itself also means asserting its authority to say something is wrong when they feel it is and not feeling that they have to be accountable to western standards especially in their own domain Ie: Indonesia.
   Once again your standards of confidence are what matter, right???

   In my view all orthodoxy does is vest merit/power/influence in those perceived to be the ‘most’ orthodox and become the guardians of whatever ‘truth’ they believe they represent or embody. But tell me, who guards the guardians when

   The question of orthodoxy/heterodoxy is a very complicated one, in any religion. I personally in the minds of social observers would be heterodox or even a heretic muslim! But I still object to the cartoons….the question is one of balance not absolutes.
   When people start mocking religious figures that are held very dear by a 1/5 of the world I think thats a sign the balance has swung too far the other way, that’s all.

   But tell me, who guards the guardians

   We are all guardians, even you are a guardian of your idea of free speech, but you are fooled into a sense of objectivity, by the label of freedom, you are no different than those you oppose, actually worse is you have no real objectivity, only a false sense of one, unlike the so called orthodox who don’t make a pretense to objectivity.

   but you just declare yourself as an epitome of another easily irritated Muslim.

   So because I object to the cartoons and don’t fit your understanding of what free speech is, I am automatically an easily irritated muslim?

   Tired, tired anti muslim arguments that are on endless repeat cycle on IM, can’t you people see how you always expect muslims to fit into your world, freedom and truth is always according to your definition.

   I do find Rima’s half baked personal philosophy and insulting view of islam irritating, she says the most ridiculous things, if it was about mundane things I would ignore them, but she insults my religion and thus me, she spreads a lot of anti muslim idea in this forum.

   I could argue equally she is an easily irritated non muslim, which she proves herself over and over to be by blaming islam for everything.

   I do not feel that I have to fit my muslimness into your good muslim profile as I have confidence in what I believe.

   I just remember it now, why there’s no one ever says ‘Bir Moh’ Birahi Mohammad?

   Didn’t I say good muslim? Besides one of my best friends is a muslim revert from christianity and he looks exactly like the cesar boujair/michael angelo jesus and yes I do make jesus jokes to him, and we make muhammed jokes too, but they’re all in good taste and never go to the point of blasphemy, by joking about Jesus/muhammed and god too, we are respecting them. If some of your friends said long hair:jesus, that is not an insult, it’s just a casual joke but if he said it loud and meant it as an insult would you champion his right to free spech???

   Also a non muslim does not have the same right to joke about muhammed in public as I do in the same way non afro carribean cannot say the word nigger to a black man but a black man can it to another black man and it’s all good. It is not parody itself that is wrong, it is the psychology behind it as tim dog so elequently explained!

   Sorry Sitiy Cathhay I don’t think you understood what I said…as your replies are not in any way related to my words.

8. Alf Janszoon says:

   November 22, 2008 at 1:01 am

   Is it insulting to write or depict the truth? Is it insulting to depict Muhammad in bed with nine-year-old Aisha in a cartoon? Of course it isn’t. You can read it in the hadiths.

   Sahih Bukhari
   Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
   Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

   It is insulting to say that Muhammad was a mass murderer and make a motion picture about it? Of course it isn’t. You can read it in the Sira.
   Page 464

   Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a women of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyyay ibn Akhtab and Ka’b ibn Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka’b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, ‘Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!’ This went on until the apostle made an end to them.
   Huyyay was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, ‘By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes god will be forsaken.’ Then he went to the men and said, ‘God’s command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the sons of Israel.’ Then he sat down and his head was struck off.

   The truth can never be insulting. Only people with something to hide will want to suppress works of art that tell the truth.

9. rima says:

   November 22, 2008 at 1:02 am

   Barry Prima: Am not anti Islam, just anti religions. And pls do not refer to me or my comments ever again as i have also discovered that I am also anti you.

10. Maj Frukt says:

    November 22, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    How would you feel if I parodied/insulted your mom and dad, your daughter or someone close to you? Would you still respect that as someone’s opinion? Well there are some western people in an attempt to maintain a false sense of freedom would actually say yes….they are not worthy of being called human beings

    I know you address this to other poster, but I can’t help myself.

    Sure, I will be offended if someone insult my believe, my parents, etc. But I still WON’T approve on how the government trying to do to our freedom.

    If someone posted something offensive about what I believe on their website, I’ll just browse to different sites, or worse I simply blocking the site, but I WON’T ask the government to do that for me, because I don’t like when the government feel they have the right to take control of everything, most especially the freedom of speech.

    Everyone has the right to be insulted, hurt or angry. But I just don’t like when government has to stand in the middle of the things that I can simply avoid by not clicking the website, or if it’s on tv, I have the choice to turn it off.

    How if it happens to my parents? That’s different case, because as a person who believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in privacy. Religion OWN by public, government OWN by public, both government and religion ARE PART OF public, but parents or family are some individuals who had the right of the privacy. STILL… I will handle it differently and won’t give up my right to “taking care of” it to government. You may ask why I meant with taking care of it, well… I probably start blogging about it, talk to the press, or politely asked the poster to remove from their website, and if they don’t want to, then I have the choice to NOT viewing them.

    How if it happens to my children. If they’re adults then I’ll do exactly what I’d do if it happens to my parents. But if it happens when they’re still underage, then at that case, the government CAN be involved, because it could be count as “sexual harrasment” or depending on the case.

    But my point is not about the “insulting cartoon” but on how the government handle that. Don’t you think that the government actually insult our ADULT intelligent by doing so? Does the government realize that they were treating us like a child? Does the government realize that we, as adults, knows how to make our own decision? Imagine what can they do next. Now, with blocking and possibly jailing some people over a simple thing.

11. Purba Negoro says:

    November 22, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    Maj Frukt.

    You are offering your own subjective ill-formed opinion- not a valid argument.
    There is no such thing as Freedom of Speech anywhere in the world.

    If there was we would not make laws like libel, slander, defamation of character, etc.
    With the Freedom of Speech comes the RESPONSIBILITY to not impinge unfairly on others’ rights.

    Freedom of Speech taken literally is totally abstract and an unworkable, unrealistic concept.

    The original concept of Freedom of Speech was learned Jeffersonian citizens criticising government. The Bill of RIghts did not intend or even in their worst nightmare expect idiots to abuse it make lurid and vulgar jokes about religion or justify vulgar pornogrpahy (in the case of Larry Flynt arguing porn is Freedom of Speech/Expression).

    Religion is NOT owned by anyone. As much as the air is not property of anyone.
    And NO- the government is NOT insulting our intelligence- it is acting with full accordance of the laws of this Nation which you as Resident in have SWORN to obey.

    The motivation behind this is to disallow any such provocative inflammatory commentary etc so that Indonesia- still a very fragile, reactive and immature society will not have violent conflict created by ineterst groups to push their agendas.

    The government of Indonesia is not a liberal Western government and neither are any of the laws of Indonesia. The wisdom and efficacy of these laws are NOT subject for debate of immature, ignorant youngster idolising their ill-formed MTV education of the West.

    You are too young and stupid to realise merely 30 years ago- if Serrano depicted his “P*ss Christ” he would have been jailed even in the US.

    Indonesia is about the Rights of the majority (historically oppressed) Rakyat- not the rights of the whiny, the overprivilieged, faddish and selfish.

    Ignorance of citizen responsibilities is unacceptable defence.
    If you have such problems with Indonesia and the laws you have sworn by your presence here alone to obey- leave.

    Otherwise put up and shut up like the other 230 million do. Here in Indonesia- we can have such idiot forcably shut up- occasionally permanently.

12. Barry Prima says:

    November 22, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    Am not anti Islam, just anti religions.

    Part one does of this statement is not consistent with part 2. Hardly a surprise that you would say something as nonsensical as that, if one looks at your post history on IM

    And pls do not refer to me or my comments ever again.

    Well if you feel that way don’t post on this forum and most importantly don’t insult me/Islam (which you do constantly) without expecting some response of like manner.
    Here are two examples from your last statement.

    Rama, it’s not only the fanatical Muslims, it’s ALL Muslims.

    Muslims have a very different way of thinking and believing in something. It’s strange and illogical.

    So much for freedom of speech…who is easily upset..And I didn’t even say anything about your parents..Are you dare I say it, trying to curtail my freedom to insult you!! So easy freedom of speech as a concept is, when it doesn’t affect you!

    Is it insulting to write or depict the truth? Is it insulting to depict Muhammad in bed with nine-year-old Aisha in a cartoon? Of course it isn’t. You can read it in the hadiths.

    I don’t need you to tell me what my religion says, nor am I going to argue with someone who couldn’t distinguish between muhajir and mujahidin and then thinks he is an expert on how to interpret Islamic texts, especially when he doesn’t speak Arabic.
    You can keep posting your anti Islamic bit and pieces, I think Peter tried to give you a bit of context for them and explain the reality of the world in which Islam was revealed but you don’t want to open your mind to the possibility of seeing things differently from a predetermined vantage point. You can go around thinking you know and other people don’t and feeling superior, so be it.
    Most of those allegations have been raised and dealt with on other parts of the forum by more intelligent posters than you, (I even wrote a whole essay on the Aisha thing on the fitna thread) so no point rehashing for your benefit. I will not cast my pearls on swine.

    but I can’t help myself.

    You can’t help yourself in coming across in your argument like a five year old…well as you said: Everyone has the right to be insulted, hurt or angry. Well, looks like you took care of that all by yourself..

    That’s different case, because as a person who believes in freedom of speech, I also believe in privacy.

    You can’t have both absolutely…you need balance between the two…that’s what the debate is about. ..Ok I’ll go backwards for you a little bit using your own words to make you see…

    I probably start blogging about it, talk to the press, or politely asked the poster to remove from their website, and if they don’t want to, then I have the choice to NOT viewing them.

    So if someone posted internet porn of your family members against their will you wouldn’t want the government to block it for you, even if they have the power and you don’t??

    Are you man with any self respect or respect for your family? You think the rights of the pornographer are more important than your family’s right to privacy?
    Can’t you see the lunacy of your argument; do you sacrifice your own family’s value to be acceptable in the face of the progressive trendy westerners?

    Religion OWN by public

    Yes and the mass majority of Muslims in Indonesia don’t like these cartoons and want them banned, so the government is carrying out the needs of the people and thereby practising democracy.

    I have the choice to turn it off.

    So you would also agree to this :
    Man having sex with animals on prime time TV. After all you have the choice to turn it off.
    Men raping and beating each other in a theatre near you…you have a choice to go there.
    You might not watch it but others will and this will affect the way they view the world and other humans and impact on their behaviour in relation to others including your daughters/sons. Nothing is the universe is separate from anything else, not even an idea!

    Because it could be count as “sexual harassment”

    It could also on one level count as restricting freedom of speech.
    Maj your whole argument is really too simple, freedom is something that exist only in relation to other things, so called freedom of speech is impossible unless you are advocating anarchy, but then you would have people killing each other over words/insults, so back to square one.
    Man is not free, he is a product of society and ideas which he picks up consciously and subconsciously, most of the time without free choice and even a part of his free choice is harmful to him. One man’s idea of freedom is different from another’s, so shouting free speech only means free in the understanding of the person saying it.
    It’s about balance and insulting 1/5 of the world in such sensitive time in history without any purpose is upsetting the precious balance and is plain bad manners.

13. bukakelambu says:

    November 22, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    I once saw a picture of a tattoo from a book I found in a local bookstore. It was called JESUS f*ckin’ CHRIST (as in the exclamation) with a picture of Jesus actually f*cking Christ, which is himself, in a very sadomasochistic kind of way. I found that extremely hilarious and amusing heheh… Muslims should relax on that Muhammad stuff really.

14. ET says:

    November 22, 2008 at 10:43 pm

    No Et, please try harder….so we can insult you back.

    Barry Prima, I will do my best, just to please you.

15. Crosswar says:

    November 22, 2008 at 11:34 pm

    The fact is too many churches have been burnt down by the moslems in Indonesia and to build a church would take the longest way and effort even for schools. And we’re the christians have never been taught to take revenge.

16. ET says:

    November 23, 2008 at 7:02 am

    fullmoonflower

    First time I saw that tongue, I thought that was an avatar of a toothless monkey is biting a banana

    No, no, no… I’m just advertising, if you know what I mean.

    BTW, are you Javanese or Japanese?

17. fullmoonflower says:

    November 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

    BTW, are you Javanese or Japanese?

    I am a Javanese, but people said that I’m more like a Japanese than a Javanese… hahaha 😆

    BTW, are you a Martian or an Alien?

18. ET says:

    November 23, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    PN said

    There is no such thing as Freedom of Speech anywhere in the world.

    If there was we would not make laws like libel, slander, defamation of character, etc.

    The motivation behind this is to disallow any such provocative inflammatory commentary etc so that Indonesia- still a very fragile, reactive and immature society will not have violent conflict created by ineterst groups to push their agendas.

    Except when it’s about the Chinese.

    Look who’s talking.

19. Purba Negoro says:

    November 23, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    We are both culturally very similar in fact- more so than New World Western to Javanese, Chinese to Javanese or Korean to Javanese.

    Our societies are very similar- very stratified, quite static, very feudal even in the modern era.
    Only accept Western culture as filtered by our own

    And there is some evidence Japan and Java had knowledge of each other prior to Dutch colonialisation.

    Another thing- British society is VERY similar to Javanese- but they do not like to be reminded how feudal they actually remain- as they claim they are now modern. No. Same.
    English especially- very something like snibby- until they start to know you. Then friendly. Very clever at tricks.

    Scottish are something more like Batak- very open- what you see is what you get kind of thing- some very confrontational- others very friendly. Very clever at business.
    Irish just like Manadonese and Sundanese- very open and friendly for chat and very much like to talk. Love to party.

    Welsh- quite similar to English.

    No- same. Even mentality. Like living at home only different langauge and different skin tone.
    Forever the buffalo mindset like us and very hard to admit mistakes!
    Do not believe the British would not form mob if their Anglican Church or Queen was vilely insulted.

    Summary- we are all far more alike than we like to admit!

20. ET says:

    November 23, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    fullmoonflower

    BTW, are you a Martian or an Alien?

    To be honest, reading the nonsense of some commenters in this forum sometimes makes me feel like one.

    But no, I’m a earthling ET. Just an Enfant Terrible .

21. fullmoonflower says:

    November 23, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    🙄

    Just an Enfant Terrible .

    How terrible are you? 🙄

22. ET says:

    November 23, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    How terrible are you?

    Ho, ho, ho… Nosy nosy ya? Like all tax people.

    Watch out girl. Curiosity killed the cat.

23. fullmoonflower says:

    November 23, 2008 at 9:18 pm

    Nosy nosy ya? Like all tax people

    LOL 😆
    I am an ex Tax Officer 😛
    Ever worked in Tax Office for 10 years, but then I resigned… 😆

    Imagine that! Now I’m working againts my old friends and my juniors… hahahaha 😆

    Sorry.. out of topic… 😳

24. Geordie says:

    November 24, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Barry, you seem to be being deliberately disingenuous or simply haven’t read my post; charitably, I’d like to believe the latter but do rather fear it’s the former. The central point is that if you slander my mother/wife/sister then I have choices, I can beat you to a pulp, sue you or ignore you.

    Whilst it might be momentarily enjoyable, violence doesn’t really have any place in modern society. So that leaves me with recourse to the law and that seems to me to be an awful waste of time and effort for what is an opinion of a person who doesn’t figure largely, if at all.

    And for the avoidance of doubt, I haven’t used analogy in this, or the former posts. What I should have said was that if it’s a sin to insult one thing, it must be a sin to insult all things on the basis, and perhaps I should have clarified this at the time, that what I hold to be sacred you may not and vice versa. In this regard, we’re left with what I believe to be an untenable situation where nothing is open to critique.

25. Geordie says:

    November 24, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    So for idiot who shoot off their blabbing mouth about Muslims being oversensitive- do as your Yesus Kristus commands, “remove the log from your own eye before you point out the speck in mine”, “Judge not lest ye be judged”, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

    Not my Jesus PN, if you’d read my post you’d have noticed that and I wasn’t talking about oversensitivity. If Muslims are convinced that Islam is the one true religion and only through it can a soul reach heaven, why on earth worry about the opinions of others?

26. Geordie says:

    November 24, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Do not believe the British would not form mob if their Anglican Church or Queen was vilely insulted.

    Good grief PN you have to be kidding, the Anglican Church is a joke and it is routinely pilloried, rightly so in my opinion. And there’s a long history of satirizing the monachy in general and the Queen didn’t half come in for some stick over the handling of Diana-gate.

27. Barry Prima says:

    November 24, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    What I should have said was that if it’s a sin to insult one thing, it must be a sin to insult all things on the basis. In this regard, we’re left with what I believe to be an untenable situation where nothing is open to critique.

    The point is a bit clearer now thanks, but my objection to it is still the same. Absolute free speech itself is untenable, unless you have anarchy, in which case as I said before you will have people killing each other as they already do over words and you go to a worse scenario than before. As PB said, we are dealing with the real world where people have real feelings.
    So the question for any intelligent observer is is not one of free speech or not, its about the limit of free speech and where the limits should be and how to balance free speech with respect to other rights. All religions are about balance; Islam is the same, that’s why for every negative statement you have a positive statement to balance it out in the quran .Its what’s called in Taoism mysterious levelling. Islam deal with reality as it is, man as he is, with all his inherent and unalterable in most cases, vices and weakness. The transfiguration of man comes in embracing and transforming his nafsu nature not in rejecting it.
    Free speech, free love, free the bee or even free beer, are nothing but slogans that have nothing to do with freedom, which is something can achieve only individually and arguably under any circumstances.
    The whole idea of Islam is not to present a perfect political/social system (although a lot of Muslims seem to have reached that conclusion) as if Allah were to reveal a perfect system and make it obvious, it would be rather totalitarian of him and rob us of the prize of free will.There is thus alot of scope to determine actually what that system should be, baring in mind certain principles.
    The finalising formula in this acting of balance is that `his mercy precedes his wrath’. When wrath overrides mercy (as with fundamentalism) you have an inbalance.

    That if it’s a sin to insult one thing, it must be a sin to insult all things.

    Not all things are equal, nor do they inspire the same responses, not all sins or crimes are equal either….really I can’t believe you’re serious in making that kind of argument, as you seem to have displayed at least a reasonable level of intelligence elsewhere.. I would contest you whole idea of Buddhism is completely flawed if as you are using Buddhism as earlier to justify such a position. It’s Liberalism ,disguised under poorly understood and applied Buddhism, and not for the first time in this forum.

28. Agnostic says:

    November 24, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    Am I wrong to think that this world will be a better place to live when there’s no religion or when everybody’s an atheist? Then we just have to worry about race and sex

29. Purba Negoro says:

    November 25, 2008 at 12:46 am

    Geordie,
    point taken. I stand corrected on your obvious more educated understanding of current British society- and perhaps even a reason why you move to more civil place where we venerate the elderly- not mug, murder or rape them (at least so much).

    My provacative comment was actually intended for the generally Chinese and Ambonse (pretstants usually) CHristians coommentators here who wail about unfair play.

    For the Islam of my Javanese background- my father was very kejawen and rarely pray or attend the mosque. He very much enjoy the gambling and play the high life of drinking imported spirits with other friends.
    We definitely believe in God- but not the chauvinism God of many ignorant peasant Muslims who sadly are the ones the West pay most attention to.
    And many of us educated and open enough will admit ther are aspect of worship within our religion that are not perfect- but this is problem of human interpreting the wisdom recieved by Muhammed- it is blasphemous to allege Islam is as it stands perfect- only the al-Qu’ran is.
    The interpretation- as it is via the imperfect human will forever be imperfect as well as human created social aspect of worship/obediance-

    And for those like my family and background- we have respect for the Catholic especially as so many Javanese as well as Catholic priest (some actually Dutch) shot by the Dutch for helping the Indonesian Independence movement and for huge contribution to bettering the indigenous Indonesian. Precisely this reason is why Suharto allowed many Catholic and some select Christian Institution to flower- such as TriSakti University and Atma Jaya and many other.
    Hindus also very respected -sa not only many Balinese hero but many Indian Speoy soldier refuse to fight or defect to Nationalist cause.
    Buddhist- as most are Chinese are much less respected- so perhaps there is issue of race there.

    For example- in my native town- the Catholic Church is fully staff by Muslims- everything aside from the religious aspect. Satpam Muslim, contractor are Muslim- the church has very long history of charity work with partnership of local mosques for all poor people . This is the kind of ideal excellent respect and relationships the indigenous Javanese Catholic have with Muslims.
    Sadly- many protestant give very little to chairty- a very mean Dutch Calvinist mindset and then others ae funded by the principally US who illegally crudely evangelise and rub many people the wrong way- so reactionsim occur.

    Then there is political issues such as recruitment of ignorant under-developed people for manipulation by Saudi funded militant and political Islamists competing for membership.

    With regard Poso, Maluku and such problematic outlying area the issue is not at all about religion- this is just convenient sensationalist issue.

    No- it is actually conflict between the military (mainly Muslims) and police (mainly Ambonese), and tribalism/clan loyalty who HAPPEN to be religiously divided.

    So like all society- religion zeal and poverty/ignorance/poor education are proportionally related- the higher the strata generally the weaker the zeal

    Maybe why Islam should not be questioned is same reason why Jews will not allow Holocaust to be questioned- perhaps implication of non existence more offensive than actual question.

30. Purba Negoro says:

    November 25, 2008 at 12:52 am

    Timdog…

    Guardian Eco-store. LOL… oh the (solar-powered) Irony…
    Have you ever seen that South Park episode about San Francisco, hybrids and “smug” emissions?
    My son got me addicted to such rude rubbish- but so funny.