What is Racism?
Sep 22nd, 2008, in Asides, by PatungI am getting tired of discussions constantly drifting into the areas we see below, cut from the effeminate men post.
I titled this post “What is Racism?” because, hmm, some stereotypes about different peoples are actually true, and in scientific terms a stereotype must be true, or else it isn’t a stereotype…But I don’t know if there is some formula that determines at what point the exceptions to the rule become so numerous that the stereotype breaks down and has to be abandoned.
I generally don’t like accusations of “racist” and “racism” being thrown around, they are substitutes for thought and argument, or they attempt to stop thought and argument, but I don’t think I’m alone in getting weary at some people constantly carping about Chinese or Anglos, or whoever…
This is the original bit by Purba Negoro which sparked the following off:
Indosiar is also Chinese owned. UNsurpisingly its’ content is facile, derivative, cheap and trite- outirght plagiarisms of better Western models and the lowest possible investment for highest possible profit-wan, aiya- exemplify fondly held Chinese values- the love of tinsel and trinkets.
Metro TV is owned by Pak Paulo. The quality of the station is far superior than profit-at-any-cost typical Chinese penny-dreadfuls. Just like their Tempo and Jakarta Post- self-serving or self-aggrandising pulp fictions.
306 Comments on “What is Racism?”
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Andy,
If everyone feels Seksi, no-one will be racis.
Oke Friend ?
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janma says:
Shouldn’t one play the kecapi
You should know PN…. where the kecapi originated from…. and tempe, and tahu, and mie and bakso and so much of your wonderful ‘pribumi culture’ is actually from China and was bought to INdonesia by Chinese. without them you wouldn’t even recognize indonesia.
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Janma,
Very Seksi observations !
Personally, I don’t think you’ve lived till you’ve played out a packed Shea Stadium plunking out “Smoke on the Water” on a Ukulele.
Then to a roaring crowd of tens of thousands, I played “Give Peace A Chance,” as they passed me shoulder-to-shoulder, like a log through a gentle sea.
Wouldn’t sound the same on the kecapi – although Pete Townsend & myself did jam, “Pinball Wizard” with kecapis once. He said they didn’t smash as well as Gibson geetars…
Yeah Baby !
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tomaculum says:
Aluang wrote:
“DXP and Mets, PN’s comments are angry words, not anti-Chinese. ”
Come on Aluang, read again PN’s comments. There are angry words, but also hate words and racistic words.
Read his comment f.e. about Papuan.
Let us ask PN himself: Do you hate Chinese?
And
“The earlier Chinese settlers of inland Kalimantan fought alongside the Dayaks. The evidence were burial graves of Pris and Chinese resistance fighters scatterred in the Sambas region.”
According to PN it is impossible. Read again his comments and his discussions with me in other threads.PN:
“are you so naive as to lecture someone much older and wiser than you.”
Much older, maybe. Wiser, in which case? 🙂Btw, Patung, why shouldn’t we call a racist a racist? If one names his/her Papuan sisters and brothers as stone aged apes, then what is he? A philosopher? 🙂
And guys, let us be honest, we talk here about racism against Chinese in Indonesia. Let us watch ourselves in the mirror. What a surprise to see how much racists among the Chinese living in Indonesia.
We talk about discrimination against Chinese in Indonesia? And what do the Chinese do?
We are racists and we discriminate other (races). -
sputjam says:
Quite right. pribumis are looked down by chinese. This is a fact. But it is so normal that it is considered non racial in nature.
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Andy says:
Of course Purba is racist and you know if he admits it I will be very proud of him and see him in a different light.
Another idea I had today is maybe the history of Indonesia dwells too much on the conflicts of the past. Time to let go. And the red on the national flag symbolizes blood-not good. Maybe a change of flag to a peace sign and then change the national anthem to ‘kumbaya’. A whole new attitude for a brand new country.
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Purba Negoro says:
Quite right. pribumis are looked down by chinese. This is a fact. BUT it is so normal that it is considered non racial in nature.
An obvious paradox and hypocrisy.
Pathetic apoligism.Janma- your ignorance yet again.
What is your text- something from Jakarta Post Group or Gramedia?Put down the Bangkit and Skandal.
Chinese contributions to Indonesia is nil and null- apologisms and hagiography- like that shoddy fallacious “1421: China discovers America wan- Ha see how Cheenaman is King Nummer one Uncle”- shot to pieces by the world academia as being “all allegations completely refuted by fact”
Kecapi- it is a siter Janma. From Java- derived directly from From India, name intact- altered into Sundanese.
Bronze-work originates from Sumer- modern India. The earliest artifacts yet FOUND are Dong Son period of from Vietnam- pre dtaing Chiense presence in Vietnam.
Like everything eslse claimed as Chinese.
Shoddy derivatives of more artistic and refined neighbouring nations- like it’s Confucious plagiarisms (Indian derived), pagodas (Indian), Buddhism (Idndian) cimplex mathematics (Indian), concept of 5 elements (Indian) and Japan.What of these other remarkable Chinese inventions?
noodles-
Romans invented noodles CONCURRENTLY- the story about Marco Polo was made up by an American spaghetti company brochure.
Ruins exist of Roman spaghetti houses all around ItalyGunpowder?
English- Roger Bacon. Militarised by the English into hand gonnes and serpentines. Arrived in Indonesia via Arabs and Ottomans.Chinese claim of two-stage rockets completely laughable.
Like the first Cheenaman into space- put many locket onto chair- big bang man gone- must be in space Auntie- cannot find meh!
Paper:Papyrus of Egypt and Pergamon of Greece. Lonttar was from India- the concept on writing on plant based material hardly Chinese at all.
Tempe is 100% Indonesian- there is nothing like it in CHina- probably someone left it too long and decided to eat it.
Tofu- you’ll find it too is Indian- as is veganism.
Indians may be many things- but they don’t eat dog, cat, pig, rat, donkey penis and ballas, cow penis and balls, sheep penis and balls, monkey, or “anything with its’ back turned to the sun (Wu phrase about Cantonese peasants eating anything that swims, crawls, walks or flies”.Bakso- of course cutting up meat and shaping it into a ball is so original a concept. Only CHinese brilliance can imagine such things. Oh hang on, Italians have spaghetti and meatballs, Greeks have meatblals, even Jews have Motze balls even in chicken soup…
Oh so solly lah- not so olijinor Auntie.
Just Chinese fakery as usual.Horlumpick was Cheenaman invention. Computer- Cheenaman. Sam poh- ha Cheen too- listen name Auntie. Not from Babylon one.
Any more- Chinese ahem contributions?
I can go on ad infinitum.Otherwise, don’t insult my intelligence and don’t dignify meretricious Glodok gossip as fact.
Maybe Chinese were as they are today- a puffed-up self-important yet facile derivative knock-off society with nothing original to offer the world?
Back to Skandal, bu yud.
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PN-pribumis are looked down by chinese.
Purba points out to us one of the forms of racism. There is the supremacist variety where one side genuinely believes they are superior and that the other sides are bringing down theirs to the lowest common denominator. Nazi Germany and the Ku Klux clan practiced this form. Maybe in some cases the chinese do feel superior but you can hardly blame them can you. They feel they are building the Indonesian economy and the pribumi (javanese) is dragging the chain. But the Indonesians don’t even want to grant them full citizen rights. And let’s not forget, the Chinese (mainland) economy is going from strength to strength so who can blame them for a feeling of superiority. It is not as dramatic as some pribumis think though. I know that chinese indonesians generally like pribumis and wish them no harm at all. Most have pribumi friends and colleagues and live harmoniously.
The other form of racism involves those who feel inferior and must bring down others for fear of them taking over their precious kingdom. This is practiced by the majority (not all critics) of Indonesians. They can now with the benefit of television and internet see how more advanced other nations and cultures are and fear with global travel and business as it is the re colonisation of their land. Immigration, marriage and property laws are ways to curtail the superiority of their rivals. Instead of taking them on at their own game and lifting themselves they must try to chop them off at the knees. Like a football team playing the man and not the ball when they play a tougher opponent.
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Marisa says:
Generalization is evil, some say. Nevertheless, if you’re working in marketing, for instance, you’re just going to have to generalize people into demographics. Some can come close to racism — though in Indonesia, market generalization is more about economic levels and how it associates with other aspects such as social behavior as to-be consumers.
Generalizing or stereotyping is inevitable at times. I agree with Andy that there ought to be cross cultural training in Indonesia’s education. If possible, internationalized education. Problem is, thanks to bias and social paranoia, ‘to internationalize’ is somehow regarded as ‘to christianize’ or ‘to westernize’.
Unless you’re Mother Theresa or something, I find it hard to believe than one could personally accept and appreciate ways of people from ALL races, nations, religions, ideals or ethnics equally. As imperfect human beings, there must be a sense of favoritism involved. One may prefer to socialize with person type A rather than person type B as long it’s not person type C. Even so, I see no reasons why one must be racist of the other if they are born and raised in the same culture and environment. It’s that I’ve-been-through-what-you’ve-been-through kind of interpersonal tolerance. For this matter, I regard one’s innate nativity not solely in bloodline, but in lifeline.
However, that’s in personal context. Not in politics and societal cultures. Allowing destructive racism in politics and culture is very much like taking a look in the mirror, and not liking and not accepting what ones see. Racism explains a lot about ourselves, not necessarily about others.
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Sputjam,
“Quite right. pribumis are looked down by chinese. This is a fact. But it is so normal that it is considered non racial in nature.”
Some pribumis look (very, very much) down at other pribumis. 🙂
It is also seen as very, very normal, that it is considered as the right way to live with another and considered as to be less awful than the racism of whites against blacks or yellows against browns.
🙁
We are racists! -
Sorry, Folks, feel the need to speak out:
Racism stems from the tribal human survival instinct. Millenia ago, we needed the tribe to survive. Back then, we often, (depending on what part of the plant you lived in), needed to compete with other tribes.
We don’t need to do that anymore.
Grow the f*ck up !Word.
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Lairedion says:
There’s another form of racism, Anglo-American democratic imperialism world-wide. Also known as globalization/capitalism. A continuation of the White Man to dominate and exploit the rest of humanity, the planet and its natural resources.
This bloc seeks the creation of a private world government, the systematic erosion of the structures of all sovereign Nation-states, the standardization of cultural values and social norms, the spreading of the globalized financial system on a speculative basis and the management of a global war system in order to maintain the necessary social cohesion of its own masses through permanent coaxing and alignment against real or imagined enemies of “democracy”, “human rights”, “freedom” and “peace”.
Some examples:
– Brutal economic sanctions on Cuba and demonizing of democratically chosen left-leaning Latin American leaders like Chavez and Morales.
– Two of the five seats in the UN’s Security Council. Vetoing virtually every proposed sanction criticizing the 52th US state of Israel.
– Disregarding this same Council, starting wars and invade countries on their own initiative in Afghanistan and Iraq.
– Influencing and dominating world economy through institutions like the IMF, G8 and the World Bank.
– Talk big on human rights but being themselves one of the biggest violators of human rights next to their friends in Israel and Saudi-Arabia.
– Perpetual support of the Apartheid regime in SA, well into the 80’s.
– Consuming 60% of the world’s oil.Well into 2008 we’re starting to witness the demise of these failed White politics with the collapse of the US financial market. Perhaps we will see a change for the better for all of us but I do not dare put my money on it, especially if McCain will be elected.
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Mets says:
Cant we ask ourselves a question ‘am I a racist’ before we start throwing accusations and pointing the finger to everyone…
Pls try it… you will be very surprised what you will come up with…it is the most hardest excercise to be self critical…..
Ps. remember to base the question around the definition I posted earlier
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Friend,
I think is better if we are all…
Seksi.Achmad.
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Oigal says:
This bloc seeks the creation of a private world government, the systematic erosion of the structures of all sovereign Nation-states, the standardization of cultural values and social norms, the spreading of the globalized financial system on a speculative basis and the management of a global war system in order to maintain the necessary social cohesion of its own masses through permanent coaxing and alignment against real or imagined enemies of “democracy”, “human rights”, “freedom” and “peace”.
Outstanding.. A direct quote from the Deep South of Good OL USA and the KKK and their conspiracy theory about the UN and Federal Government.. You keep fine company “L”
Is there like a special course you people attend or something?
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ tomaculum
Held you head up high, bro. Javanese onboard and abroad are uniting with our Wog brothers against a common foe – the POMES.
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Then why tolerate it on your site?
If it makes you weary, are you then tolerating it as some kind of free speech?
Rob, while sometimes I don’t tolerate it (you should see the comments that I don’t let through, let me tell you…) on the whole I take the American approach to free speech, which as you know is much more liberal than in Europe/Australia.
Btw, Patung, why shouldn’t we call a racist a racist? If one names his/her Papuan sisters and brothers as stone aged apes, then what is he? A philosopher?
Tom, well I guess I see it as a kind of name-calling or labeling, not sure where it gets us, although there’s some satisfaction in calling a spade a spade no doubt, assuming people agree on the definition and then when the label is really called for…
Marisa, great stuff!
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Pak Patung,
Stick to yer gun. Truth always win.
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Seksi Mr. Patoengs,
How about a thread on the “worst of” IM ?
Some of the worst comments ? The offenders perhaps could go unnamed…
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Patrick says:
Achmad its much more seksi to name names. Being infamous is seksi sekali!
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Lairedion, you point out some of the shortfalls of the western democratic system but many of your views are unproven and / or some kind of conspiracy theory. The west in the end were the only ones with the stomach to fight the apartheid government of South Africa. The same is happening now with Burma. No western leader supports the Burmese military dictators but Asian countries seem to want to let it go and continue trading as ever before. Why does the West consume most of the oil-because they have the most money and means to do so. If other countries rose they would too. China and India have proven that already.
While not the perfect model, western democracy remains to this day the best and most peaceful form of leadership in the world. We should thank the USA for providing stability and freedom for a great many people. Imagine for one moment if one of our Eastern or Middle Eastern friends were the sole world superpower. Would be scary wouldn’t it? -
Oigal,
I quoted the Argentinian writer, researcher and journalist Adrian Salbuchi, specialized on geopolitics and a critic of globalization. His article is titled: The World’s Mastermind:
The Hidden Face of Globalization. You can read it here. I’m very much aware white supremacist groups walk away with some of his views but that’s not my business so it doesn’t bar me from referring to him. I subscribe many of his views on globalization and geopolitics.Andy,
WMD’s also turned out to be unproven and we’re now in a Iraqi mess. I have absolutely no problem with western democracy but I reject the Anglo-Saxon model full of lies and their thirst for world power. I’d rather choose for a non-aligned social democratic western model like Sweden. Back in the 80’s Sweden already had strong anti-apartheid views and laws while Reagan and Thatcher were still supporting SA’s racist regime.
Imagine for one moment if one of our Eastern or Middle Eastern friends were the sole world superpower. Would be scary wouldn’t it?
The West have dominated the world only for the last 300 years and look at the mess we’re in. It won’t take long before the Eastern powers China and India will reclaim their role of world superpower. Most people do not fear the Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism of the Eastern powers yet many people fear either Westernization or Islam, both derived from or part of the “3 desert religions”. These 3 religions account for half the world yet causing problems for more people than the number of followers of these 3 desert religions. I understand a lot of Westerners are organic atheists but Bush and Blair seek guidance from God before making decisions like waging war.
For Indonesia this is a dilemma. Located in South East Asia with deep Indic roots but also the largest Muslim nation. If Indonesia wants to be a major power it must abandon its current path to Islamism and emphasize more on Eastern Asian and Indic values. Our Mojopahitan history has proven we don’t necessarily need Western or Middle Eastern concepts to prosper.
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Cukurungan says:
While not the perfect model, western democracy remains to this day the best and most peaceful form of leadership in the world. We should thank the USA for providing stability and freedom for a great many people.
The western democracy is the leadership in the world to maintain the status quo that the welfare of the few hundred million people who live in the western world must be guarantee at all cost include by sacrificing the live hood of other billion people who live in the third world.
Because the natural resources of the world has no capability to sustain the world economic activity if all people in the world consume the natural resources as the western people consuming rate at the moment. -
DXP says:
I just learnt from my Indonesian advisor,
the Javanese have your traditional way of life : ‘bibit – bebet – bobot’ = by itself a systematical method of racism passing through from one to the next generation.
A serious offence of the human kind ! -
How about a thread on the “worst of” IM ?
Some of the worst comments ? The offenders perhaps could go unnamed…
Trouble is the very worst I just hit “delete” and they’re gone…although there was one I saved recently, kind of stunned me….
Probably should clarify what I said above because mightn’t make sense, even to me…strictly speaking, I don’t delete comments because they are racist. I delete them if – A. I think they are very poor quality, or B. contain vicious personal attacks/threats or overly personalise things in a way I don’t like. It just happens that comments like that tend to have a lot of racial stuff in them, ultimately it just depends on my interpretation of what is very poor quality and vicious.
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I quoted the Argentinian writer, researcher and journalist Adrian Salbuchi, specialized on geopolitics and a critic of globalization. His article is titled: The World’s Mastermind
So there is a course!! Well that explains a lot
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Oigal,
Conspiracy or not, 2008 will be a memorable year. The year we will witness the demise of Western capitalism and greediness. I’m eager to see which banks are going to collapse tomorrow as we start a new business Monday.
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Lairedion…
I am sure that there is a link somewhere between western capitalism, globalization, and racism. But is the collapse of western capitalism and greed slightly tangential to this thread on racism?
In any event the collapse of the banking system as we know it could have far-wider implications than just the collapse of western capitalism, don’t you think?
Will Indonesia and Europe, for example, be immune from this meltdown?
More interesting is the fact that there is broad support from some sectors suggesting that any US bail out of its financial institutions is tantamount to paying off those that made the mess in the first place, a sort of rewarding them for their indulgences and mistakes.
It seems to be a good opportunity to clean house so to speak.
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Rob,
You’re right but I couldn’t resist.
Will Indonesia and Europe, for example, be immune from this meltdown?
More interesting is the fact that there is broad support from some sectors suggesting that any US bail out of its financial institutions is tantamount to paying off those that made the mess in the first place, a sort of rewarding them for their indulgences and mistakes.
Yes, it will affect the whole world. And I’m afraid that ultimately the non-aligned and Third World again will pay the prize of their failures. But for once it’s good to see the US-British brand of capitalism and its subsequent greediness and high risks is a dead end street.
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