Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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oh wow.. eradicate atheism in indonesia? how would pak syamsul feel if there are people who would like to eradicate islam?
it’s a belief and anybody should be free to choose what they believe in. no wonder indonesia is rotting, look at their governors, this one in particular is an ignorant loser.
to my experience, i find atheists to behave much more polite and sane compared to religious people.
I second Andy, I think atheism should be permitted in Indonesia, and when the majority are Atheists (or at least agnostics like myself) only then will the country be able to stand on its’ own feet and be a great country.
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diego says:
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Patung, are you sure there wasn’t any typos in that paragraph? I mean, the word “PKI”, did you mean PKS?… And for atheism, I guess you meant wahabbism (islamism). Just my 2 cents.
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Cukurungan says:
Can’t Indonesians for once realise just how much damage their religion is doing to their country?
Our history spoke by itself that there was no religion causing damaged to our country, once upon time we chosen Hindu as our religion, once upon time we chosen Buddha as our religion and lastly we decided Islam as our religion, it proven none of those religion was causing damaged to us, unfortunately when 350 years ago the white predator landed in here then everything had changing because the white stole and plundered everything then the new species human being what so called a poor and hunger people in which never exist in our history was starting to appear in our community. However, thank to God finally we able to kick back the white predator to their original nests and during the last 60 years we were working hard to fix the damage had been done by the white while we also working to eradicate the legacy created by the previous white ruler and the funny thing that the white people still try to deceive us that they are trying to teach us how we should run our country
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Enigmatic says:
Cukurungan Says:
October 10th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Can’t Indonesians for once realise just how much damage their religion is doing to their country?Our history spoke by itself that there was no religion causing damaged to our country, once upon time we chosen Hindu as our religion, once upon time we chosen Buddha as our religion and lastly we decided Islam as our religion, it proven none of those religion was causing damaged to us, unfortunately when 350 years ago the white predator landed in here then everything had changing because the white stole and plundered everything then the new species human being what so called a poor and hunger people in which never exist in our history was starting to appear in our community. However, thank to God finally we able to kick back the white predator to their original nests and during the last 60 years we were working hard to fix the damage had been done by the white while we also working to eradicate the legacy created by the previous white ruler and the funny thing that the white people still try to deceive us that they are trying to teach us how we should run our country
Well Islam is used as a rallying tool in Indonesia for national unity. Let’s face that. Just look at the promotional poster. What’s our governor candidate wearing?
However Cuk, note that Indonesia is, after all, a democracy and hence the rights of minority religions have to be respected. And personally, I cannot tolerate religion, any religion, and politics going hand in hand. They don’t mix. Sure they can be established as separate entities.
You can favour religion to be the force that allowed Indonesia to live in harmony. But that was THEN. Way before the Dutch came. And at that time, the islands were all split. Indonesia wasn’t even conceptualised. When Sukarno formulated Indonesia he encompassed it to be a pluralist state, not leaning towards any religion. I’m sure you know the tenets of Pancasila.
Now, yes, the economy is in the pits. The pesky FPI is not brought down. But politically, we’re more stable than our neighbours that have overemphasised on religion and one authority other than the people. I’m talking aout Malaysia and Thailand. And that’s partly because we never really emphasised on religion in our politics.
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Andy says:
I think atheism should be permitted in Indonesia, and when the majority are Atheists (or at least agnostics like myself) only then will the country be able to stand on its’ own feet and be a great country.
Correct again rima-you are a champion!
In stable, prosperous countries atheism is at it’s strongest. For example, whenever I did the Singapore visa trip the first thing noticed (before the modern technology and lack of pollution) was noone seemed to want to push their views down my throat and religion was largely non existent. Sure there are churches and mosques around but it seems to be of little importance to those who are moving on and making a success of their lives. Same in most western countries. Even in the good old US of A religion is minor in major states but becomes bigger in the poorer rural south. Wherever there is poverty you can be sure to find religion. And as for Islam well, if the west wasn’t pouring money into muslim countries i’m sure they’d still be riding camels and making smoke signals rather than using internet and television (western inventions) to vent their racist hatred towards anyone who’s tolerant and civil.
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cukurungan-it proven none of those religion was causing damaged to us, unfortunately when 350 years ago the white predator landed in here then everything had changing
Oh yeah??? funny I didn’t notice any terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam during the period of Dutch rule. Only in recent years. Also enigmatic makes an interesting point in saying that the islands were split before dutch rule. Why not go back to that time and take what was yours before the dutch united it to a point where you thought it was worth taking back? Also, how about showing more tolerance towards minority religions and stop exporting your rubbish to Papua, Maluku and islands which wish to live in peace.
cukurungan 2 things- firstly, your English needs a bit of touching up. Maybe you could take an English course with a native speaker and secondly, your views are both frightening and dangerous. I suggest you get a lobotomy my friend. You know what they say, little knowledge is a dangerous thing. For you and for us.
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Lairedion says:
Andy said:
Atheism is the best thing that could ever happen to Indonesia. It will be a path to free thinking and free speech which is the cornerstone of all great democracies around the world
Wrong. Secularism is the cornerstone of all great democracies (non-aligned democracies like Sweden or Switzerland). A state which is neutral on religion and does not interfere with peoples beliefs or non-beliefs. To think atheism is the path to free thinking and free speech is contradicting to itself.
But organic atheism as a “belief system” should have its place in modern Indonesia. Compulsory religion is nasty…
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timdog says:
This is just wierd… I feel like it’s high time Lairedion and I had a fight, but he keeps saying things I agree with, like:
Wrong. Secularism is the cornerstone of all great democracies (non-aligned democracies like Sweden or Switzerland). A state which is neutral on religion and does not interfere with peoples beliefs or non-beliefs. To think atheism is the path to free thinking and free speech is contradicting to itself.
But organic atheism as a “belief system” should have its place in modern Indonesia. Compulsory religion is nasty…
couldn’t agree more, though I would add that as well as atheist, it ought also officially to be possible to be Kejawen, Marapu, Aluk To’dolo, Wetu Telu, or whatever else – including communist – and ideally, that you ought not ever to have your religion recorded on forms, ID cards or anything else…
Andy:
when did anyone kill or die in the name of atheism?
It really is like taking candy from a baby with you isn’t it?
Try the Cultural Revolution in China for a start; when you’ve done with that you can check out the Khymer Rouge and the Soviets.I’m gonna keep shooting these barrel-bound fish, taking this infantile candy…
I didn’t notice any terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam during the period of Dutch rule
Try the Padri Wars in Sumatra for a start; check out “Imam Mahdi” in East Java at the turn of the 20th Century… keep going…
the first thing noticed (before the modern technology and lack of pollution) was noone seemed to want to push their views down my throat and religion was largely non existent
First of all, this makes me wonder if the first taxi driver to carry you from the airport on your first ever visit to Indonesia was some kind of wildly proselytising abberation, and that your views on the nation were at that point skewed beyond redemption, because I don’t recall anyone in Indonesia ever attempting to “push their views down my throat” (though I must say, you are having a fair go at doing just that around here)…
Secondly: the first thing? Before the modernity and cleanliness??!?!?
No need for silly hyperbole Andy dearest…
Thirdly: did you not notice all those people – many of them suited businessmen – swarming all over the Chinese temples of a morning in Singapore? Or singing their hearts out at the pentacostalist churches, or indeed heading to mosque, temple and gurdwara each day?And just incidentally, dearly as you seem to love Singapore, it ought to be pointed out that clean though it is, its democratic credentials are notably worse than Indonesia’s, it has one of the highest execution rates in the world, has significantly less in the way of free speech than Indonesia, and has a government that is quietly but thoroughly repressive of dissent.. just thought you should know… hope that doesn’t upset you…
Gosh you really have a wealth of historical and general knowledge to back up your assertions, don’t you Andy?
And as for Cukurungan’s English, he certainly comes out with some stuff and nonsense, but his English is just fine. How are your foreign language skills Mr Andy? Let me guess – “fluent” Indonesian? How’s the Mandarin coming along? Bet you’re Ngaanyatjarra’s not bad either…
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Ok i’ll bite!
timdog I know you hate me (if not you would be as equally venomous towards intolerable posters like cukurungna and AAB) but I will keep it all brief as I don’t have time to go into as much detail as you-
The Cultural Revolution had NOTHING to do with religion but with communism. Yes, the two go hand in glove but I will repeat, millions died for reasons other than an atheist ideal. Can you prove otherwise? The khmer rouge killed people to form an agrarian society. They railed against educated rich people rather than those who believed in God.
Singapore? They execute more but their judicial system is fairer and more just than the Indonesian model. It is far more transparent. Being a foreigner, I would not like to be caught on the wrong side of the law in either country but would trust i’d get a fairer hearing in Singapore. You may find a judge like cukurungan or AAB in Indonesia who simply doesn’t like us. Get it? Or one who takes a bribe. Democracy is practiced there. The majority rule because the people are prosperous and won’t vote them out. They have held elections since their Federation. Go check the facts. Indonesia on the other hand, how were they under Suharto?
Oh and yes, I speak Bahasa Indonesia. I used to have great yarns with my father in law on politics etc. He doesn’t speak any English. I won’t say i’m fluent but had no trouble in a bus, taxi or at the traditional market buying vegies.
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I don’t hate you Andy; I am embarrassed by you.
AAB is funny; he’s not all that he seems, and he is more than he seems. We are reliably informed that he is an authentic Indonesian; if that is the case then he most certainly is a masterful dalang whose motives are beyond our ken. He has definitely got your goat, and I am sure that he’s laughing at you pretty hard on the other side of the screen. No need for him to laugh at me too.
That’s why I don’t rage against him.Cukurungan comes out with some nonsense, but none of it particularly eyecatching, and there are plenty of others here who will take it up with him. No need for me to do so.
As I said, I do not hate you; I am embarrassed by you.
Why? Because, you are unfortunately from “my people”. That is, you are just another “Misterrr Bule” in Indonesia, and it gets my goat that I might be associated with you by people who know no better. You have clearly approached Indonesia, in person and online, with ignorance, inflexibility, rudeness, sexual motives, a lack of humility, and a serious case of self-importance.
It makes me cringe to think of the impressions left by the likes of you; it angers me that the impression of “Misterrr Bule” is informed as much by people like you (and there are many of them) as by people like me (and there are many of us) – humble in our dealings with those around us (and if I ain’t at all humble here, I’m a very different person on the ground), self-deprecating, and very much aware of the fact that we are the wierd, funny, ridiculous oddity in their country…
That’s why you annoy me… -
Does anyone see the irony in citing the Pancasila as justification for hatred and intolerance towards others? What’s the take on agnostics?
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oh wow.. eradicate atheism in indonesia? how would pak syamsul feel if there are people who would like to eradicate islam?
it’s a belief and anybody should be free to choose what they believe in.
Quoted for truth. I have nothing much more to say. I’m not pro-atheism (though myself an agnostic, which is atheism in an etymologic sense) in this case, but rather pro-freedom of thought.
This is nothing more than a politician trying to win votes by the oldest propaganda since mankind discovered politics: conceiving a common enemy that’s taken for granted. Atheism, thanks to PKI, had been playing the role since the 1960s.
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And as for Cukurungan’s English, he certainly comes out with some stuff and nonsense, but his English is just fine. How are your foreign language skills Mr Andy? Let me guess – “fluent” Indonesian?
Friend …just give room for Misterrr Andy to insult me and I think it is duties all of IM Forumer to give moral suport his presense in this forum otherwise we will miss his genius posting hehehehe
Cukurungan comes out with some nonsense, but none of it particularly eyecatching, and there are plenty of others here who will take it up with him. No need for me to do so.
Sobat… sorry this time I do not like with your choice of word because all my posting is based on fact and truth…no liar in it ……..so the proper word for posting should not be the nonsense but the beyond white sense
Oh yeah??? funny I didn’t notice any terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam during the period of Dutch rule. Only in recent years.
During the Duct rule our Hero such Pangeran Diponegoro, Jendral Sudirman, Imam Bonjol and Cut Nyak Dien using the Islam as our doctrine doctrine to wage war againt the Duct occupier therefore therefore at that time we called it as perjuangan kemerdekaan” and not terrorist act.
timdog I know you hate me (if not you would be as equally venomous towards intolerable posters like cukurungna and AAB) but I will keep it all brief as I don’t have time to go into as much detail as you-
Misterrr Andy ….My heart is full of compasion and no hate in it and all my posting is not more and less than truth and the problem is not my posting but your self because you hate the truth that come out from the brown man.
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Berlian Biru says:
The Cultural Revolution, Stalin’s purges and the Khmer Rouge massacres were about imposing atheistic Communist rule, ergo militant atheists are the biggest mass murderers in world history.
Bar none.
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Berlian Biru said:
The Cultural Revolution, Stalin’s purges and the Khmer Rouge massacres were about imposing atheistic Communist rule, ergo militant atheists are the biggest mass murderers in world history.
Bar none.
Perhaps it’s better to make a difference between coercive atheism and organic atheism. Just a thought.
The one thing that puzzles me is why is it for religious people so hard to accept there are millions of atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers who live happy, useful, just, meaningful and moral (whatever that means) lives?
Both Rima and Jabber hit the nail, it’s a free choice. Personally I don’t know if God exists or not but then again I find the question irrelevant and futile.
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lomboksurfer says:
Whoa dudes! The surf gods are real! And for you hot tasty babes since I am a surf god you can worship me. I will be in Club Barbados all week so meet me there and find beach religion! You will know me because I am the one with the A frame tee shirt that says Surf gods Rock! And we do!
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Hey what I wrote above about surf gods maybe that can make a great T shirt slogan “Surf gods Rock & Rule” LOL What do you dudes and hot tasty chicks think? Would you buy it?
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Funny timdog, you probably would also find me more humble in person than on this forum. This forum is a chance for all of us to let off steam. In some ways I am happy to hear the rants of people like AAB, cukurungan, purba (where has he been?) as you know Indonesians are not all as they seem. Behind the ‘hello mister’ and happy faces lies a darker side. Maybe you can’t see it. I enjoyed teaching kids while there because the one thing you can say about kids the world over is they display an honesty and frankness. They are often a reflection of their upbringing. One child I had drew a picture of George Bush and title it ‘world’s greatest terrorist’ and on another occasion I had a mass walkout of students when I was teaching a class about Santa Claus. From these two experiences I could get a true idea of the community I was living amongst.
Anyway this forum is about atheism. Where do you stand on that? And religion in general? No need to expalin how you feel about me, everyone knows already. Stick to the topic or we will see yet another breakaway thread titled ‘what we all think of andy’. Really I don’t want that as I don’t feel i’m all that important.
I will repeat for berlian biru- please read some history. Communism is a political ideology. They are atheists but so are millions of non communists, myself included. The reason behind the millions of killings was to put in place a political ideology which is far more complex than simply ‘we don’t believe in god and all believers must die’.
Muslims kill for a religious ideology. That is they want to impose a caliphate from Africa to Asia. Anyone who stands in their way to their eyes will dies. Did you catch the Bali Bombers on the news recently? They have no remorse for the innocent people (and their families) who were killed by them. And through all the appeals and now threats to anyone who wants to execute them, I say now, if you are so afraid to die then where is your god and where is the great life in heaven with the 70 virgins? They must be seriously doubting it. I personally don’t believe they’ll die as I don’t think Indonesian muslims (who control the judicial system) will do it to their own.
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Anonymous says:
Religions have poisoned our minds into thinking narrowly that the world consists only for a sole-narrow set of believes.
The power of our mind enables us to believe in things which in turn becomes a power of reality. Certain religions took this advantage to make their affect other people’s reality, this is called the “affectionist politics”. While others want to believe in things they want to crave, they are limited to by narrow visions. The reason why the western world spur in industrialization in such a way, is because of the growing anti-clerical movements in politics.
Though not to miss the point, it is strongly encouraged for us to believe, even in god. Young atheists misinterpret what is transforming in their world, and they need to be conducted through proper education.
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Patrick says:
Well said Andy and I am not a supporter of atheism by any means. Your personal experiences while teaching were interesting and informative. Thanks!
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Behind the ‘hello mister’ and happy faces lies a darker side.
You are funny…
Indonesia sure has a dark side; I would be inclined to suspect that I am more sensitive to and intrigued by and knowledgable about its genuinely black-as-night dark side than you. Australia has a pitch black dark side too by the way – I honestly beleive that rural Australia is one of the most strangely unsettling places imaginable for someone from the old, small world of Europe.But you seem to believe that this “dark side” in Indonesia simply amounts to some crude hatred flickering behind every pair of brown eyes, waiting for Mister Andy to turn his back before attacking him with knife and gun – for everyone knows that each and every Indonesian is secretly duty-bound to destroy all bules; they’re just waiting for their moment. Paranoid much?
One child I had drew a picture of George Bush and title it ‘world’s greatest terrorist’
Oh my god! Shrieks of horror! Evacute Indonesia at once my fellow bules! They’re all coming to get us!
Andy, that you would even mention this as some symbol of the dark, sinister hostility of Indonesia can only provoke howls of laughter. Go into any class of adolescent emo kids in London, Sydney, or come to think of it, New York, and half of them will draw that same picture with that same slogan for you. A (white British) friend of mine has a tee shirt with that on it for f**ksake…As for your story about the santa claus class walkout; I’m very sorry Andy, but I simply do not believe you – unless you were teaching in a JI pesantren maybe…
If you really did have people walk out of a class about santa claus I can only imagine it was because you engaged in some supremicist hectoring about how wonderful western culture was – along the lines of “I stood up and shook the hand of the kid who claimed to be an atheist – never have I been so proud to meet an Indonesian”, though given your penchant for absurd hyperbole (“the FIRST thing I noticed in Singapore was its innate liberalism and absense of religion”) I’m inclined to take that story with a pinch of salt too…
Probably you were just teaching really badly.As for atheism, I regard myself a practising atheist, with just a flicker of agnosticism deep down to keep me religiously humble. And despite a period of aggressive atheist fundamentalism in my youth, I now acknowledge it to be just another religion, and as such no more or less valid than any other.
I also feel strongly that atheists ought to say “I believe that there is no God”, rather than “I don’t beleive in God”. The difference is subtle, but crucial. In any case, I’m actually perfectly comfortable with the concept of an abstract, unknowable God anyway, and i’m inclined to feel that in the case of such beleif it is actually irrellevant whether It exists or not…I also very strongly believe that attempting to enforce atheism is an entirely negative thing – every bit as much so as attempting to enforce any other religion. When atheism is enforced people are killed in their hundreds of thousands (see above cited examples). And when atheism is enforced, as soon as you take the lid off the religion comes surging back often stronger – and uglier – than before (see Catholicism in former Soviet Eastern Europe, Islam in Central Asia and Turkey, Buddhism in former Communist Indochina etc).
And in the case of Indonesia I would prefer to see indiginous religions (Kejawen, Wetu Telu, Marapu etc) officially recongnised before seeing “ateis” a sanctioned official choice…
Anyway, if you would like to see atheism enforced on Indonesia (as you seem to suggest in some of your earlier posts) what the hell were you doing teaching them Santa Claus?
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Anyway, if you would like to see atheism enforced on Indonesia (as you seem to suggest in some of your earlier posts) what the hell were you doing teaching them Santa Claus?
Following a curriculum in which I had no choice but to teach. I wasn’t the owner of the school but a mere teacher. And to accuse me of gilding the lily on the class walkout. Are you suggesting that I am a liar?
It seems timdog you harbour an anti-Australian attitude. Your comments on the Bahasa Indonesia thread reflect this too. I mean we are a ‘miniscule speck’ on the world map right? Next you will be telling all that the poms are superior cricketers, rugby players and surfers. Dream on…..
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Nah, the UK is absolutely sh*t at sport; pretty much all sport, or all sport that you can measure anyway. But who gives a toss about that?
Not anti-Australian (though there are things I don’t like about Australia); I’m just anti anyone who thinks “my country is better than yours” – and that catagorically, absolutely, without hesitation includes the UK
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I’m just anti anyone who thinks “my country is better than yours” – and that catagorically, absolutely, without hesitation includes the UK
Also includes Indonesia as evident by some of our bloggers on this site.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Hello Misterrrr Andy,
You are caught with your pant’s on fire again.
Teachers are considered senior members and are well respected in Indonesia. It is not in our tradition to be disrespectful to the extent of staging a mass walkout. Most Indon Chinese are Christian so I can only assume you meant pribumi students. Misterrrr, it is simply unbelievable. Maybe they smelt a rock crab in you. Did you don a Santa’s costume and asked, “Come sit on Santa’s lap. Candy for you.”
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@ – Timdog – I believe Andy made a very valid point concerning Islam in Indonesia and elsewhere and yes we Westerners do have good reason to remain on our guard while visiting or working in any Muslim country and that includes Indonesia. He is not wrong about his witnessing children and adults believing that George Bush is terrorist as I have myself heard that comment more than on a few occassions. I worked closely at times with the Ministry of Health in Indonesia financing HIV & malaria trials for rapid diagnostic tests and even among the educated here there is dreadful view of the United States and that viewpoint is not isolated to just Jakarta but also I witnessed it in several areas of Sumatra. Mind you, I do very much believe that Indonesia, for the most part, is a very polite and civilized society but there is good reason that many Western Embassies here do continue to provide updated travel warnings to their citizens.
I think for Indonesia to stabilize itself it is imperitive that Fundamentalist Islam be controlled, isolated and ultimately removed from the country like the cancer it is. I believe this is a view also held by PN? The fundamentalist are a major obstacle in the development of Indonesia as they look to control the Islamic people and radicalize them in politics, education and business. If its allowed to continue much longer on its present course than the founding fathers of Indonesia would not themselves recognize the Republic that they fought and died to attain.
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@ Patrick
I think for Indonesia to stabilize itself it is imperitive that Fundamentalist Islam be controlled, isolated and ultimately removed from the country like the cancer it is. I believe this is a view also held by PN? The fundamentalist are a major obstacle in the development of Indonesia as they look to control the Islamic people and radicalize them in politics, education and business. If its allowed to continue much longer on its present course than the founding fathers of Indonesia would not themselves recognize the Republic that they fought and died to attain.
Your opinion on how Javanese controls fundamentalism is not welcome. Thanks to armchair (or commode) human right do-gooder like youself, Acheh is now a safe haven for jihadis.
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@ AAB – Thanks to me? And OK then if I agree with you that my opinion is not welcome in Indonesia than conversely you will you agree that your opinion is not welcome outside your country as well? There is a certain logic to this isn’t there? Maybe you & I discovered the secret to world peace AAB?
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@Andy: Sadly, I have better things to do with my life than read the endless rants and raves that get posted here day-after-day. BUT… I am really interested in your thoughts about why the Bali Bombers haven’t been executed yet. Have you written about this elsewhere?
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Atheism is the best thing that could ever happen to Indonesia. It will be a path to free thinking and free speech which is the cornerstone of all great democracies around the world. Anyone who is brave enough to come out and declare themselves as such gets a nod from me as a great citizen and human being. I met one once in a class I taught and could not believe the stunned looks from fellow classmates that day. I stood up and shook his hand. I never felt prouder to meet an Indonesian than on that day.
Can’t Indonesians for once realise just how much damage their religion is doing to their country? Does this Syamsul clown not realise that terrorism and intolerance is the cause of his country’s undoing? Since when did anyone kill or die in the name of atheism? And please noone come on and throw up the moralist line. I don’t know too many Indonesian muslims at all with sound morals.