Dutch War Crimes
Sep 9th, 2008, in History, Opinion, by LairedionLairedion on the Dutch state being sued over war crimes at Rawagede, West Java.
Dutch State sued by Indonesians
On Monday 8 September 2008 10 Indonesian survivors of Dutch post WWII violence have sued the Dutch State for the assassination of their family members during the First Police Action (Agresi Militer Belanda I) after WW II. They want financial compensation, explanations and recognition for their suffering, as announced by their lawyer Mr. Gerrit Jan Pulles.
According to Pulles it is for the first time Indonesian victims of the fighting of 1945-1949 hold the Dutch State responsible. Mr. Pulles acts on behalf of ten villagers from Rawagede, West Java. They survived the bloody attack of the Dutch Army on 9 December 1947. According to the Dutch Honorary Debts Foundation, 431 (almost all the male) villagers were slaughtered. According to the Dutch Indulgence Note from 1969 150 people were killed. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has announced they will study the matter.
Well into 2008, 63 years after Indonesian independence, the Dutch, due to their stubbornness, ignorance and patronizing behaviour, are being haunted again by their crimes in the aftermath of Soekarno’s declaration of 17-8-45 and they rightfully should. Only just being liberated themselves from the Germans the Dutch wanted to continue the situation as it was before WWII and re-occupy their former territories now being declared independent and bearing the name Republik Indonesia.
Rawagede is one of the most notorious events in the history of Indonesian struggle for independence against the Dutch. On 9 December 1947 Dutch forces raided the West Javanese village to look for weapons and Indonesian freedom fighter Lukas Kustario who often spent time in Rawagede. They didn’t find any weapons neither did they find Lukas.
Survivors of Rawagede remember (full version of documentary linked in footnotes).
Apparently dissatisfied by their lack of success the Dutch commander directed all males to be separated from the rest in order to execute all of them, despite the fact there were some young males of 11-12 years old among them. Indonesian leaders reported the mass killing to local UN officials. The UN made an inquiry and concluded the killings were “deliberate” and “ruthless” but failed to prosecute and to have the Dutch punished and sentenced for these obvious crimes against humanity and this is still the situation today!
Last month Pulles (of mixed Indo-Dutch blood like yours truly) visited Rawagede together with people from the “Yayasan Komite Utang Kehormatan Belanda (KUKB)”, including its chairman Jeffry Pondaag, to collect witness accounts and endorsements from survivors in order to hold the Dutch State responsible.
A protest outside Dutch embassy in Jakarta.
While financial compensation is sought after it must be noted that most survivors only want the Dutch State to take moral responsibility and offer official apologies to the Indonesian people. Furthermore they do not seek punishments for the people directly involved in the killings. One survivor just wants the Dutch not to forget what has happened.
At the same time more and more Dutch veterans, haunted by the crimes and horror they experienced, are supportive of the Rawagede survivors’ claim. It is very disappointing to see that of all the Dutch political parties only the left-wing Socialist Party support the claim while the conservative-liberal VVD on behalf of MP spokesman Hans van Baalen even denied Dutch crimes against humanity in Indonesia! 63 years of ignorance and subtle racism have been persistent obviously, a disease many Western nations still suffer from.
It is because of this the KUKB has been founded by Netherlands-based Indonesian Jeffy Pondaag in 2005. They demand the Dutch government:
- to recognize 17 August 1945 as the day Indonesia became independent.
- to offer apologies to the Indonesian people for its colonialism, slavery, gross violations of human rights and crimes against humanity.
The foundation is a non-subsidized independent foundation with branches in the Netherlands and Indonesia and would be happy to accept any donations. They look after the interests of civilian victims who suffered from violence and war crimes committed by Dutch military. Their website have more information on the Rawagede story and on the infamous Raymond Westerling who murdered thousands of innocent people in South Sulawesi.
Back in 2005 Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirayuda, obviously speaking on behalf of the Indonesian people, made it clear Indonesia is not seeking apologies or compensation from the Dutch. This reaction came after then Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot (who is Jakarta-born) expressed regrets and morally accepted the de-facto independence of Indonesia on 17-8-45 while he was representing the Dutch government during the festivities of Independence Day on 17-8-2005. Bot’s remarks were widely criticized in the Dutch media for being insufficient and way too short of a full apology and recognition of 17-8-45.
Of course it is irrelevant if Indonesia is demanding apologies or compensation or not. It should come from the Dutch themselves but their stubbornness and ignorance are still hindering them anno 2008. The Netherlands have constantly refused to express a full apology and recognition but were always quick to raise their finger and lecture its former colony on alleged human rights violations during the Soeharto reign.
I’m fully supportive of the Rawagede villagers and any future similar cases, seeking for Dutch responsibility, recognition and financial compensation. Evidence is clear, witnesses and next of kin are still alive, we’re dealing with war crimes, gross violation of human rights and crimes against humanity and here lies an opportunity for the Dutch to finally deal with its own past by recognizing and helping those poor villagers.
Sources and links:
News article from Dutch daily “Parool” (Dutch) : Indonesiërs klagen Nederlandse staat aan
Website of KUKB (Dutch and Indonesian): Yayasan Komite Utang Kehormatan Belanda
1948 (English) Word document approx. 7.8 MB: Report of the Rawahgedeh observation team
Broadcast of Dutch news show Netwerk with topic on this story: Netwerk 8 September 2008 (witness accounts from survivors (Dutch-Indonesian-Sundanese). Streaming media, requires broadband internet access.
827 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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You’re going up in my esteem, Oigsy-Poigsy.
So Oigal is becoming a little seksi perhaps.
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Oigal says:
You’re going up in my esteem
and that matters to me about as much as a squids opinion on the use of calamari as finger food.
might be an idea to take the party to your place. I’d promise to be polite with no insults.
Can’t see it, we don’t offer safe conduct passes to the obnoxious although I am sure you would provide a few minutes of entertainment.
Personally… Ayers Rock but it’s a non issue and yes tourists should be allowed to climb it. Interesting point (although not relevent to the larger issues of helpingstop the abuse in the communities today)tho, as it counters oft made claim that noone can own the land and yet some claim to “own it enough” to deny others access. Again though not relevent and a side track issue. It is just these sort of inane agruments that polarise the community yet add nothing to the larger and far more complex issue at hand.
Firstly there are technical and policy questions about how to lift downtrodden communities out of poverty.
Hang on, you have already said there are reams of material that tell us how to do this and now…pretty typical..I refer you back to your inane comment about Ayers Rock and this cop out.
We need to know what happened. We need to know what wrongs were done and how so many Australian aboriginals ended up in the state they’re in.
Its all there for the asking some accounts more accurate than others. Do tell how (forget the weasel words) it will changes one thing or the solution required TODAY?
Should traditional aboriginal law be allowed if it involves spearing through the thigh as a punishment ? Mr. Hughes, for example, talks of how for whom the Aranda tribe, women were a store of currency and consumption good
Absolute nonsense, another latte wank theory that all cultures are equal. By default if you support that sort of traditional barbarity, you also support female genitle mutilation, under age marriages..afterall they are traditional, customs for other cultures, which have no place in a modern civilised society.
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Central government intervention has been a failure. Violates the notion of “independence.”
– The communities need help, though, given the rural Africa-like living conditions.IMHO, until these issues are sorted out, Australia will have to accept the shameful mess. Building political support for the problem that cross the election cycles is critical
BUT YOU HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING!! Usual wank and non-issues about what the rock should be called and quick everyone feel guilty but not one practical, actionable plan or sembalance of one. Congrats! You have now joined the chattering left of Australia.. loads of abuse but nothing to add.
Central government intervention has been a failure. Violates the notion of “independence.”
Fundamentally disagree, before the hollowman man KRUDD and the thing with hair started to dismantle it, the intervention at least gave breathing space to the women and children in the affected communties whilst people like yourself ranted and raved about the names of rocks. Not an ideal solution, in fact far from it but at least for a little while perhaps some children and woman may feel safe.
My personal sadness is no one seems to have the answer and thats shame. A large degree of the problem is people like you because as soon as someone mentions anything that does not fit into their myopic little view of the world that are howled down as a racist or a fool. Yet when pursued and/or pushed for their solution they are weighed, measured and found wanting to provide anything deeper than hey lets rename everything its aborginal name (forgetting that most serious landmarks had any number of names depending on which tribe) Of course, this history revisionist wank makes the problems all just go away..I have yet to see the research but I just bet the figures on aborginal family abuse and substance abuse virtually vanished day after KRUDD wept Sorry (not forgetting that Howard also ‘Regretted”).
Unfortunately for so many of your ilk thats the key to the aborginal issue..”SORRY” vs “REGRET” kind of misses the point don’t you think?
For those looking for “WE HATE THE DUTCH” oops sorry perhaps P will move these comments
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Oigal,
Didn’t I say it’d be hard for us to have this discussion ? We’re starting from different philosophical positions.
As you said, it’s a complex issue. Therefore we need to talk about big, grown up things, like history, identity, sovereignty, and relations between former hunter-gatherer societies in change like the Australian aboriginals.
Ayer’s rock vs Uluru goes to the heart of it. It’s not a just a matter of names. It’s a matter of whose values and way of doing things should apply. Is there something different about “Aboriginal” vs the rest of Australia ?
There’s a clear chain of logic to what is to be done, once you’ve established some basic premises.
I think everyone agrees that much of modern Aboriginal Australia is a broken culture. Well many Australian aboriginals feel its broken because they’ve been dominated and colonized for 220 years.
So if you’re a community leader, what solution do you pitch ?
Rebuild a new, healthy, but aboriginal, ie not mainstream Australian culture ? Ie do we recreate a 21st century version of the relative isolation we had before 1788, with “bridges” to the outside, including possible escapes for people who want to leave ?
Do you “integrate” into modern Australia, including modern education, health, legal justice systems.
(Then there’s the solution you supported — “send in the army !” “do something!”).
This clash, Oigal, is part of the reason alot of the solutions haven’t worked over the last 100 years or so.
The basic equation is this, Oigal, which I think you’d agree:
1. To fix a problem you need to know what it is and what you’re fixing ?
2. The problem – to you – might be poverty, child abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, and general hopelessness.
3. The problem to many Australian aboriginals might be that these problems didn’t exist in the past (they think), and the problem is their culture has been broken. Therefore, create a viable, healthy, alternative Aboriginal culture, hence the tribal laws, settlements etc.
There’s just no point talking about “solutions” until we’ve defined the problem. But if you don’t want to talk about identity, relations between communities & the central state, & where aboriginals fit in to Australia’s big national story, maybe you just have stuck to guns.
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P.S. —
Patoengs, yes, Oigal has showed signs of Seksiness today.
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Mets says:
@ Achmad – thank you …you were brave to pick up this topic…….I hold the same views ….so shall we wait for a comeback or have you stunned them into silence….lol!!
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Thanks Mets,
It actually touches on a global issue, with many communities here going through the same thing.
What happens when tribal, or small-scale communities, or hunter-gathering communities collide with the nation state ?
How do we all address the problems now ?
Oigal’s response is like being stuck in a jungle, with no map, no compass, and not even knowing a general direction and saying, “c’mon ! let’s go — stop wasting time…” Then he leads them further into the jungle, off a cliff etc.
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Andy says:
The pots (achmad and mets) are calling the kettle black.
Why would any Indonesian (Javanese particularly) ever preach human rights to Australians in regard to the aboriginal issue? We have acknowledged our problems and have set out to deal with them. There is a lot of work to do but bridges have been built and fences mended.
Sort out your own backyard and let’s hear an apology to the Timorese, Papuans, Chinese and communists such as the one our Prime Minister gave to the aborigines in February. The silence is deafening. See you don’t even think you’ve done any wrong so how can you apologise then?
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Andy,
Cobber,
You seem to be able to read. Why don’t you use that hard-won skill, along with some basic logic ?
The above is a discussion on how to fix things in Australia. Are you interested in making things better, or just scoring cheap points ?
On the question of why would any Javanese preach human rights — we don’t, generally, except on internet forums.
It’s the Australians who prance around the region expressing “concern.”
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The problem – to you – might be poverty, child abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, and general hopelessness.
Might be or is? I guess I am happier siding with people like Noel Pearson rather than people like you on “might bes”
You agree
it’s a complex issue
then reduce my comments to “send in the army !” with quotation marks no less (Funny i don’t remember ever saying that as such, still accuracy is not your strong point is it.) Not only is it inaccurate, it completely misrepresents my position. I do not dispute that the military was is/used in the “intervention (btw are you saying that is a bad idea and should not have happened?) but as you well know the inference and use of the military in Australia carries no where near the insidous overtones that such use would mean in many third world countries (although you insisted on overplaying your hand with the “you just have stuck to guns.”
Again I am not sure why (besides trolldom) you continually misrepresent my views, I never said intervention was the solution, I said it provide breathing space to those under immediate threat whilst the weasel word wanks like yourself talk yourself silly and just maybe a viable plan will fall out the bottom(although based on history unlikely).
Mets.. I am surprised what exactly did ASSMAD say.. yet another bunch of grandiose bunch of motherhood statements..
Perhaps this says it best..
NOEL PEARSON: Absolutely. I mean, you know, the first and best defenders of an Aboriginal child has got to be Aboriginal people. You know, these are our children at stake here. You know, it’s quite, it’s quite to be expected that the first people who should have regard for our children are ourselves, and, you know, it’s just an absolutely miserable show that we see people who have never come up with any solution to prevent this suffering in 20 years of knowledge about the problem, but the minute somebody suggests trying to do something decisive about it, you’ve got all of them finding every excuse under the sun not to do anything.or again..
NOEL PEARSON, DIRECTOR, CAPE YORK INSTITUTE FOR POLICY AND LEADERSHIP: I think the danger, Kerry, is this will be Groundhog Day once again, where we come together every four or five years to discuss the ongoing Aboriginal crisis and we actually don’t do anything in the wake of it. I certainly think that there is a crisis in many of our communities, that government must take action on the problems and assist communities with the opportunities but I’ve got to say, just in the last 10 years, I’ve participated in at least two of these crisis sessions and I don’t see that we’ve made a lot of progress in the wake of them.
Fairly well pegs the likes of you ASSMAD.. Perhaps time for the motherhood statements to stop any suggestions?
Which camp to you fit into ASSMAD?
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timdog says:
Once upon a time I found myself stranded in Athens airport at an ungoddly hour. The Air Olympic plane for Cairo was broken, and unlikely to be fixed any time soon. The airport was almost deserted and I wandered around possessed of that hollow nausea that comes of being somewhere where the time is neither that of your destination, nor your origin.
I fell into conversation with a cheery young Australian woman, and a (white) South African who lived in the UK. He had a ponytail and a trimmed goatee beard.
We were all waiting for the same flight and for half an hour or so the chat was cheery. Then – and I can’t remember how the subject was raised – talk turned to Aborinines and within seconds this bright young Australian girl, who was backpacking around the world full of interest and sensitivity, was spitting hatred.
I’d heard it all before and was too jetlagged to care, but it was spectacular to see how the South African responded:“Men! You are beyond belif! Mah country hess an ugly history – ugly, men! – but ah am tilling you, you are beyond belif. You mek me want to vomit…”
She was a pretty girl, with freckles, though in a few years she would look like her mother, and it was all too easy to imagine what her mother looked like.
“You don’t understand!” she shrieked, jabbing her finger at him. Her eyes were green, and they were very, very angry, rimmed red from tiredness. “You don’t don’t know what it’s like!” And she started to snarl about handouts and laziness.The Greek security guards were beginning to stare at us. I thought the South African was going to hit her.
“Ah am South Ifrican, men!” he roared, cutting her very short, “Do you know what that means? Don’t you dare tell me that ah don’t understand!” And he turned and walked very swifly away, shaking his head furiously. I trotted after him leaving the Australian girl sitting on the blue plastic chairs, muttering bitterly about handouts and hard-working taxpayers…
The flight to Cairo left at dawn and there were thin men with bicycles at the dusty roadside in the City of the Dead on the way into the centre after we arrived.Andy – Achmad is talking profound sense, and given that I don’t believe that he – or mets – wielded a blade in 65, or raised a rifle at Santa Cruz, he has every right to continue doing so…
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Not really, Oigal.
When I said “stick to guns,” I meant that you should stick to twirling and polishing them, or whatever else you did back in the army besides moving papers from one side of the desk to another.
You’re a bit out of your depth here, mate.
Police & military as a short term solution for some basic human security, sure. That’s what they did the Solomons & other places.
I’m talking long-term here, “Cobber.”
And before I get into talking about blueprint “solutions” we need to define what the problem is, what we’re talking about.
In 11 or 12 posts, you haven’t been able to say what the problem is or the process by which aboriginal australia arrived at the dilemma they’re in. We need to know to what extent and where aboriginal communities want to be part of mainstream Australia.
Until you do that, there’s not much point. You’ll just start frothing at the mouth about latte-sipping again.
So over and out from me, Oigsie.
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“c’mon ! let’s go — stop wasting time…” as you said its been 168 years how much more time do you need sport? What do you about the people suffering this weekend..hang guys..sorry but we have to get this perfect first? Perhaps you are right but then perhaps I was expecting too much..
Still perhaps if we all sit quietly is and chant aww shucks sorry but we will have a plan in another 5, 20, years or so it will all just go away…
I really was expecting more from your ASSMAD, I may not have agreed but something more than motherhead do nothings..even PN’s all white fellas shoudl go home (where that is supposed to be is an another issue) but at least is was something better than yet another lounge chair psuedo solution.
I figure we are done here, as nothing new to found..
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Probably true, Oigal.
Even so, I’d like to hear what you think went wrong sometime.
For a solution:
I think we first need to understand why the aboriginal communities are so downtrodden.
We need to know why the medical and socio-economic status lags so far behind the rest of the country. I think psychological and anthropological perspectives would be key as well.
I’m sure there’s a big literature out there. And a smorgasboard of paths forward and solutions. I’d just need to know a range of perspectives on what’s gone wrong.
Before going further, I’d want to know how the Noel Pearson’s see the future.
Future questions for you that I think you need to address:
You’ve mentioned “barbaric” traditional practices, and no place in a “modern civilized society.”
Might want to define what role you think – if any – aboriginal culture has played in the malaise…
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Achmad, the difference between living standards of indigenous Australians and other races is smaller than between kampungan Indonesians and your middle class. And you have a system in place to keep it that way. Lack of quality education and infrastructure being one example. Middle class Indos (pribumi or chinese) earn enough to spend as much as bules on housing, cars etc and probably spend a great deal more on shopping. I know a lady who spent 20 million on a purse recently.
At the other end of the scale the average Joe or Adit is earning less than a million a month. I used to spend that in a weekend so know it is not nearly enough to live on in a month. Enough for a bit of rice and perhaps electricity and kerosine.
So please quit the moralising, it is pathetic. You have a country that lags behind Australia in all social indicators and much to clean up before worrying about anyone else’s backyard. Or maybe it makes you feel better bringing all this up to try and deflect attention away from your country’s faults.
And timdog, I might have expected you to jump to his defence. Yes, i’m sure he hasn’t taken up arms and committed human rights offences on his own but to support his country to the hilt while throwing abuse across the sea is a tad hypocritical don’t you think? Oigal and I didn’t abuse anyone either unless you want to accuse me of that as well (you’ve made many outrageous assumptions about me already so why not).
But guess what, your people colonised Australia so why don’t you do the ‘moral’ thing and pay reparations to the aborigines? I mean since Federation we have spent a lot of money in aboriginal communities so maybe now it is your turn to right the wrongs of your colonial past hey mate….
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for the post. In fairness, I think you’re comparing apples and pears here. You’re really talking about the Gini coefficient, an index for measuring income disparities amongst different communities. I can understand why you think it was a point-scoring post (from my part) – because of other comments, like the KBW post. But it wasn’t.
As an Australian, you seem concerned about it. I was really just trying to raise the question of why the situation is the way it is and how to move forward. And yes, it’s true, alot of middle class Indonesians like the aboriginal issue as a football to kick and make themselves feel better. Indonesia has a lot of work to do.
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Might want to define what role you think – if any – aboriginal culture has played in the malaise…
I would also be interested in discussing if Australia’s settlement as a penal colony has an effect today in regards to authority figures perhaps a underlying resentment to Aborginals. We could then go on to discuss if Asian immigration has signifIcantly increase racism towards Aborginals (Or do we Pretend there is not significant unlying racism by a number of Asian races towards those with darker skin) . All of these are significant and could raise an very interesting debate. However, sorry sport none of these tropics relevant at this moment in time. What’s say we create a safe environment and then talk about the deeper issues of why it happened and ways to prevent it happening again.
Let’s take your motherhood statements for instance, seriously how many times have we (both Aborginal and non Aborginal) heard simliar things over the last 30 years.
In fact a lot longer..despite what some would say, generally the OZ government Aborginal policies have been benign (granted in the light of modern thinking, ill conceived, paternalistic and in some cases just plain destructive, at times more often than not they did not take the wider community feeling into account but never the less intention was generally good).
My view (and yet again I am not sure how to do this and was kinda hoping but not expecting a gem of wisdom from the self proclaimed experts here) is there has been enough words and what is needed now is “intervention” to allow aborginal communities a breather perhaps even for a generation to allow education and at least a improvement in health. Perhaps then we will see a generation of Aborginal Leaders emerge that can then address those issues of which you speak and then the longer term success/survival of aborginal Australia can be addressed.
The issues you speak of are great for the Uni Debating Team covered by earnest young things with time on their hands. Unfortunately, the kids and women waiting outside the Roper Bar Hotel don’t have that much time before the next dark day in their lives.
So yea, I do believe doing anything in the short term is better than talking about it for the next 6 months, 5 years , 20 years
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janma says:
I think we first need to understand why the aboriginal communities are so downtrodden.
I know this is probably simplistic, but I think the main problem would have to be alcohol. Whatever happened in the past may or may not have driven many aboriginals to drink… I think that is a difficult premise though.. to me there seems to be a physical and psychological impact on aboriginals from alcohol that is extremely damaging and it’s effects have destroyed them.
There are some remote communities up north that are totally dry and the people in those towns have a totally different life than those destroyed by alcohol. -
In 11 or 12 posts, you haven’t been able to say what the problem is or the process by which aboriginal australia arrived at the dilemma they’re in
And to finsh up ..Gee How many different ways to have to say it, that I cannot claim nor pretend to claim the answers to that one (In fact I think very few people could with 100% accuracy).
Lets put it another way then, we both agree there is a crisis in Aborginal Australia and there has been for a long time..By some bizarre alignment of planets ASSMAD is provided the means and authority to address the matter on behalf of the Aboriginal and Wider Australian people… Tomorrows headlines in the Australian Newspaper
ASSMADS SOLUTION
For a solution:
I think we first need to understand why the aboriginal communities are so downtrodden.
We need to know why the medical and socio-economic status lags so far behind the rest of the country. I think psychological and anthropological perspectives would be key as well.
I’m sure there’s a big literature out there. And a smorgasboard of paths forward and solutions. I’d just need to know a range of perspectives on what’s gone wrong.
Actually (for once) I am not making fun of ASSMAD..point is how many times have the Australian People heard those phrases and their clones over the last 30 years and what has been the end result..
What is the plan for the kids sniffing glue and skipping school this monday sport?
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Timdog and others..
Sorry but one of stories about someone who met someone who says something nasty adds nothing of value to the debate. Sh*t I could quote worse from current Indonesian Leaders but the ignorance of one (even if true..lets see cute OZ girl and the South African..didn’t danny glover star in that movie?) does not equate to a valid assesment of the whole country..
Gee who was who said..Indonesian Girls should marry Arabs for “Short Time” Tourist fun for Arabs? (You know the agama loophole). You think that blokes utterances should be used a reference point as to moral and cultural status of Indonesia?
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Very true Oigal, timdog only recently gave me a keyboard bashing over how he thinks I tar all Indonesians with the same brush even after I have gone out of my way many times to say I don’t mean ALL. Yes he loves misquoting me.
But oh yes, he meets but one Aussie girl in Athens of all places and uses that to bash Aussies on race relations. 1/21,000,000. He must think those are pretty good odds.
About the same odds his country will have of winning the next ashes in the cricket I bet.
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Oigal,
CAN’T
DO
MUCH
FOR
THE LONG TERM
WITHOUT
UNDERSTANDING
THE
PROBLEM.
Now we’re up to 13 posts and you still haven’t defined HOW you think they (non-aboriginal and aboriginal australians) got there.
So I looked up Noel Pearson, who made some very latte-sipping comments about class and history in his “Light on the Hill Speech.” Funny, Noel Pearson seems to think historical analysis is important. (See below).
http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2000/00-08-12a.shtml
@Janma — he talks about alcohol in it.
@ Oigal — you’re focused on symptoms — which are pretty bad and need to be treated. But you’re ignoring the causes.
Of course, you could end an e-mail to Noel Pearson calling him a wanky, middle class, latte sipper. Then why don’t you throw in a few comments about “traditional barbarity” at the same time.
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Oigal — you’re focused on symptoms — which are pretty bad and need to be treated. But you’re ignoring the causes
Think we are done here, you write the paper that will treat the causes (don’t forget to file it that big room with the other gadzillion documents, probably a shame that a large portion of the people you will be writing about can’t read, still as long as we work why they can’t read rather than teaching them the skill..our work is done)..Just hope the patient ain’t dead by the time you get back..
DONE N DUSTED, although this must be new world record for ASSMAD to refrain from trolling (despite not really reading what was posted)
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Oigal,
Thanks.
Noel Pearson did a fine job in Light on the Hill. Nugget Coombs, the economist and economic historian did a pretty good job of quantitative analysis of demographics in the 19th century.
For solutions, well, hard for us to talk, as I said in the beginning.
And don’t forget to read Noel Pearson’s comments on historical analysis, class & the welfare system.
Ok ?
🙂
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Oigal, Andy – It was an annecdote; the point was the South African, not the Australian, and it was intended as a counter to Andy’s “Achmad has no right to complain” line. Perhaps I was being too subtle for you boys.
Incidentally, I’ve spent enough time in Australia to know about a certain tendency towards casual general racism from many Australians, and a certain viscious attitude towards “the abbos” from many more.
But lots and lots of countries are rotten with racism, not least Indonesia and my own, so I wouldn’t ever suggest that Australia is uniquely condemnable (though something about the casualness of the racism there does take me aback). -
it was intended as a counter to Andy’s “Achmad has no right to complain” line.
And my point was for once ASSMAD was treating a serious topic reasonably seriously himself although one could say we are fundamentally opposed on the hows and whys (more on the hows). I was keen to avoid the red herrings of Papua, Tim Tim etc which deserve their own thread but would only derail the topic in which found ourselves (granted a long way from Dutch Compo).
I’ve spent enough time in Australia to know about a certain tendency towards casual general racism from many Australians, and a certain viscious attitude towards “the abbos” from many more
At least we are not generalising or anything..still if it makes you feel better. BTW Whats a many? and how much is many plus many more?
But lots and lots of countries are rotten with racism, not least Indonesia and my own, so I wouldn’t ever suggest that Australia is uniquely condemnable (though something about the casualness of the racism there does take me aback).
Damned with faint praise? Seriously, what kind of response to expect to that kind of comment, fairly begging for comparisions isnt it.
I’ll see your annecdote and raise you a true story, homestay kupang..family meeting I was requested not to be seen with a darker skined girl with curly hair for no other reason that she was too black! Mind you the amusing thing was watching them contort as they tried to broach the subject. (It was hard not to laugh at them and hand them a mirror).
True story but hardly relevent to larger issue but just watch the debate descend into the pits now……weee..hang on
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Oigs,
Didn’t I say at the beginning it’d be hard for us to have a proper discussion ?
Sometime in the future, I’m keen to pursue the line of “not all cultures are equally deserving of respect.”
And
“traditional barbarity”
I suspect, my friend, you’re hiding your cards here for fear of being shouted down by the online voices of PC.
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Happy to do it..but its not fear just “what’s the point”.. Mildly amusing at first, I find the “but we are not as bad as you” line of debate boring from both sides (although I do wade into that pool from time to time myself hen i have nothing of value to be bothered saying)
“not all cultures are equally deserving of respect.” mm subtle change didn’t I say “not all cultures are equal”..ah can’t be bothered to check.
Just fun and as a parting gesture as I bolt from this thread..“traditional barbarity”
what would you call FGM? -
oh and no..What you said in the beginning was I said the abos and bungs deserved to get shot??? but the troll habit is hard to shake huh
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Oigal,
once again, you bob and weave in a move worthy of Geoff Fenech.
ok. I’m not in favor of FGM.
So, “if not all cultures are equal,” where do many traditional aboriginal cultures stand vis a vis “modern, mainstream Australian culture.” Are they equal/unequal ? Is one more deserving of respect than another ?
In the beginning, the words were,”bungs and abbos deserved to die.” Not shot.
Comment on “Dutch War Crimes”.
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Oigs,
The Fatal Shore. Got it, read it. You’re going up in my esteem, Oigsy-Poigsy. We can talk about it later. I’m just thinking though we’ve strayed via the theme of Dutch War Crimes into something tangential — might be an idea to take the party to your place. I’d promise to be polite with no insults. If not:
Couple more questions for you:
– What should that big red rock near Alice Springs be called in official documents ? Uluru or Ayer’s Rock ?
– Should tourists be allowed to climb on it ? Who should get to decide ?
We need to know what happened. We need to know what wrongs were done and how so many Australian aboriginals ended up in the state they’re in.
Sorry, but transportation stopped in about 1840. That’s another 168 years of history in a country that’s only 220 years old. You wouldn’t have to write 20,000 words. A paragraph would do.
In the end, it’ll be hard for us to properly have this discussion.
1) Firstly there are technical and policy questions about how to lift downtrodden communities out of poverty.
2) Then there are the philosophical questions.
Should traditional aboriginal law be allowed if it involves spearing through the thigh as a punishment ? Mr. Hughes, for example, talks of how for whom the Aranda tribe, women were a store of currency and consumption good.
What if the “policy” solutions involves aggressive paternal intervention in community affairs ? What obligations to aboriginal citizens have to the nation-state and vice versa ? Journalists aren’t even allowed into some communities, for example. How is the rest of the country supposed to know what’s happening ? Do they have a right to ?
I don’t think we”d ever agree on the philosophical questions — which are critical to action.
But in a nutshell, it seems like:
– Central government intervention has been a failure. Violates the notion of “independence.”
– The communities need help, though, given the rural Africa-like living conditions.
IMHO, until these issues are sorted out, Australia will have to accept the shameful mess. Building political support for the problem that cross the election cycles is critical.
I think the steps are to get a clearer picture of history. Then create a new “story” for Aboriginals in modern Australia. And yes, that’d involve alot of “empty” symbolism. Things like having Kathy Freeman carry the Olympic torch and Ernie Dingo make warped jokes about racism is a start.
But there’s still alot of racism, Oigal. Ain’t as nice as you’re making out.