Dutch War Crimes
Sep 9th, 2008, in History, Opinion, by LairedionLairedion on the Dutch state being sued over war crimes at Rawagede, West Java.
Dutch State sued by Indonesians
On Monday 8 September 2008 10 Indonesian survivors of Dutch post WWII violence have sued the Dutch State for the assassination of their family members during the First Police Action (Agresi Militer Belanda I) after WW II. They want financial compensation, explanations and recognition for their suffering, as announced by their lawyer Mr. Gerrit Jan Pulles.
According to Pulles it is for the first time Indonesian victims of the fighting of 1945-1949 hold the Dutch State responsible. Mr. Pulles acts on behalf of ten villagers from Rawagede, West Java. They survived the bloody attack of the Dutch Army on 9 December 1947. According to the Dutch Honorary Debts Foundation, 431 (almost all the male) villagers were slaughtered. According to the Dutch Indulgence Note from 1969 150 people were killed. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has announced they will study the matter.
Well into 2008, 63 years after Indonesian independence, the Dutch, due to their stubbornness, ignorance and patronizing behaviour, are being haunted again by their crimes in the aftermath of Soekarno’s declaration of 17-8-45 and they rightfully should. Only just being liberated themselves from the Germans the Dutch wanted to continue the situation as it was before WWII and re-occupy their former territories now being declared independent and bearing the name Republik Indonesia.
Rawagede is one of the most notorious events in the history of Indonesian struggle for independence against the Dutch. On 9 December 1947 Dutch forces raided the West Javanese village to look for weapons and Indonesian freedom fighter Lukas Kustario who often spent time in Rawagede. They didn’t find any weapons neither did they find Lukas.
Survivors of Rawagede remember (full version of documentary linked in footnotes).
Apparently dissatisfied by their lack of success the Dutch commander directed all males to be separated from the rest in order to execute all of them, despite the fact there were some young males of 11-12 years old among them. Indonesian leaders reported the mass killing to local UN officials. The UN made an inquiry and concluded the killings were “deliberate” and “ruthless” but failed to prosecute and to have the Dutch punished and sentenced for these obvious crimes against humanity and this is still the situation today!
Last month Pulles (of mixed Indo-Dutch blood like yours truly) visited Rawagede together with people from the “Yayasan Komite Utang Kehormatan Belanda (KUKB)”, including its chairman Jeffry Pondaag, to collect witness accounts and endorsements from survivors in order to hold the Dutch State responsible.
A protest outside Dutch embassy in Jakarta.
While financial compensation is sought after it must be noted that most survivors only want the Dutch State to take moral responsibility and offer official apologies to the Indonesian people. Furthermore they do not seek punishments for the people directly involved in the killings. One survivor just wants the Dutch not to forget what has happened.
At the same time more and more Dutch veterans, haunted by the crimes and horror they experienced, are supportive of the Rawagede survivors’ claim. It is very disappointing to see that of all the Dutch political parties only the left-wing Socialist Party support the claim while the conservative-liberal VVD on behalf of MP spokesman Hans van Baalen even denied Dutch crimes against humanity in Indonesia! 63 years of ignorance and subtle racism have been persistent obviously, a disease many Western nations still suffer from.
It is because of this the KUKB has been founded by Netherlands-based Indonesian Jeffy Pondaag in 2005. They demand the Dutch government:
- to recognize 17 August 1945 as the day Indonesia became independent.
- to offer apologies to the Indonesian people for its colonialism, slavery, gross violations of human rights and crimes against humanity.
The foundation is a non-subsidized independent foundation with branches in the Netherlands and Indonesia and would be happy to accept any donations. They look after the interests of civilian victims who suffered from violence and war crimes committed by Dutch military. Their website have more information on the Rawagede story and on the infamous Raymond Westerling who murdered thousands of innocent people in South Sulawesi.
Back in 2005 Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirayuda, obviously speaking on behalf of the Indonesian people, made it clear Indonesia is not seeking apologies or compensation from the Dutch. This reaction came after then Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot (who is Jakarta-born) expressed regrets and morally accepted the de-facto independence of Indonesia on 17-8-45 while he was representing the Dutch government during the festivities of Independence Day on 17-8-2005. Bot’s remarks were widely criticized in the Dutch media for being insufficient and way too short of a full apology and recognition of 17-8-45.
Of course it is irrelevant if Indonesia is demanding apologies or compensation or not. It should come from the Dutch themselves but their stubbornness and ignorance are still hindering them anno 2008. The Netherlands have constantly refused to express a full apology and recognition but were always quick to raise their finger and lecture its former colony on alleged human rights violations during the Soeharto reign.
I’m fully supportive of the Rawagede villagers and any future similar cases, seeking for Dutch responsibility, recognition and financial compensation. Evidence is clear, witnesses and next of kin are still alive, we’re dealing with war crimes, gross violation of human rights and crimes against humanity and here lies an opportunity for the Dutch to finally deal with its own past by recognizing and helping those poor villagers.
Sources and links:
News article from Dutch daily “Parool” (Dutch) : Indonesiërs klagen Nederlandse staat aan
Website of KUKB (Dutch and Indonesian): Yayasan Komite Utang Kehormatan Belanda
1948 (English) Word document approx. 7.8 MB: Report of the Rawahgedeh observation team
Broadcast of Dutch news show Netwerk with topic on this story: Netwerk 8 September 2008 (witness accounts from survivors (Dutch-Indonesian-Sundanese). Streaming media, requires broadband internet access.
827 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Seksi Mssrs Timdogs and Robs,
Are you saying Mr. Andi is not..
Seksi ?
I have the answer !
Not enough Dangdut ! Mr. Andi come back ! I will take you to Blora ! I will play for you the classic “Cupit-Cupitan” on my Ukulele !
And, I will introduce you to the lovely, substantial, Ernawati, whose rump probably fills about 3 of the bars back to back. Va Va Voom !
Like the famous Rosie in your Australian band A.C.D.C., Ms. Ernawati ain’t exactly pretty. She ain’t exactly small, but when it comes to lovin’ she knows it all. I could go on…
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Purba Negoro says:
Cubit Cubitan, Cubit Cubitan
Elvi Sukaesi, lyrics byKoes PlusHave you seen the film. Actually quite good.
I think Andy is upset a Javanese would not marry him without him converting to Islam. I think he feels very rejected and hurt because of her refusal and condition for marriage.
I think, in part, there is much self-blame for his choices or behaviours.Andy suffers then abandonment issues self-esteem, self worth, self doubt, much self ctiticsm- all very troubling and unpleasant to the ID and the Ego.
He has great difficulty in reconciling these very uncomfortable and troubling feelings and letting go as the wound is very deep.
Perhaps he loved her more than current wife- maybe? maybe not.This attack on the Self construct causes common reaction- defense mechanism.
The infantile ID of the conscious demands hitting back- manifest as outward hostility toward Javanese in general, general negativity about anything that may positively remind him of the one who attacked Andy’s Self-construct.His next girl is a Chinese- classic defense mechanism reaction against the hurtful Javanese- he chooses the opposite or perhaps even subconscious ID logic of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.
She is more loving and accepting without condition- in his perception- so eh ID does not have to deal with pleasant conflict.
The ID now accept whatever nonsense that come out of Chinese mouth as gospel- she could say “all Javanese think the sky in green” and his ID would believe- and create turmoil with his more adult Ego and the Super-ego.For Andy o heal- he needs hugs and positive reassurance of his Self Worth from us Javanese to heal.
Andy should also positively work through the conflict of emotions and try and reconcile these with himself.
Then his juvenile outbursts will cease and his anger and hurt dissipate- and he can focus more on the current, not past. -
timdog says:
Rob:
It is an unfavourable comparison and unfair.
I’m not quite sure, but I think you may have misunderstood me. I was actually saying exactly the same thing about my dear friend Lairedion as you have said here (“his arguments whether I agree or disagree or always well argued and usually passionately”) and pointing out to Andy precisely why people – even those who disagree with him – would take the Dutch-Indonesian elf seriously, but would only ever laugh at his own silly twitterings…
Mas Achmad, yoo seksi beest, I believe you have the perfect solution for Andy’s problems…
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Andy says:
Good work guys…….Now that you have, wrongly, analysed me (gee are we all psychologists here) can we now get to work on some of the other case studies here.
Purba, why are human rights violations ok in Indonesia but a heinous crime anywhere else in the world?
AAB, why do you believe all Anglo Celtic bules are pedophiles and Aussies white power advocates?
Achmad, do you really believe Kevin Bloody Wilson is representive of Australian culture? How about Heath Ledger, Hugh Jackman, Bryan Brown. And on that subject if you find our culture so distasteful why doesn’t any Indonesian artist make it in the world outside of their own. Maybe because the real world laughs at you not with you.
Timdog, why do you think Indonesians can do what they like when in their country? Don’t good manners cross all cultural boundaries?
Finally why do Indonesians think if a bule criticises their country he / she has a major problem but they can say or do anything they please.
Is it only becuase I am bule and offended your precious egos here that I am being analysed to such great detail. Actually I wrote that last line before I logged off and am amazed I got such a reaction last night. I actually now feel more important than I otherwise thought.
Thanks guys!
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Andy:
Timdog, why do you think Indonesians can do what they like when in their country? Don’t good manners cross all cultural boundaries?
Which indicates perfectly how very, very little you know…
A perfect example to illustrate, from just three weeks ago:
I was in Madura; I went to a friend’s house in Sumenep. His house is some 20 metres back from the road in a coupound of three other houses belonging to his uncles. It was a hot, windy day, and being rather lazy, I rode my motorbike in through the gate and right up to his door.
He welcomed me inside, we drank some coffee and chatted; his wife cooked dinner (very tasty Madurese stuff made from green beans and lamb); we chatted some more, looked at some photographs.
And then, more than an hour after I arrived he told me a story about how, once, some local youths had come to his house – the same house – and had ridden their motorbikes through the gate and right up to the door. The whole visit had been rather tense and unpleasant, and my friend had been thoroughly put out, mainly, he said, because it was exceedingly poor manners, particularly in Sumenep, to ride a motorbike right into a family compound; to be polite you should dismount at the gate.
It was, of course, a very soft way of pointing out my own faux pas… It didn’t really matter because I was excused for my poor manners thanks to my “extra-special bule exemption permit” (which every foreigner is granted on arrival in Indonesia). Anyway, I won’t do it again.I imagine – no, I know – that a happy soul like yourself was unknowingly behaving with attrociously poor manners almost every day that you spent in Indonesia. You didn’t know you were doing it, and you were oblivious to the fact that you were being gently excused, precisely because Indonesians are very tolerant of stupid bules.
The fact is though, you were the foreigner in their country. Really the onus should have been on you to be grovellingly polite and continuously aware of all the things that are polite/impolite in Indonesia, but have no relevance back home. I doubt very much that you were though.
If someone I meet in the pub in England asks me, five minutes after we are introduced, my religion, my salary and my age, I’ll be kind of offended. Naturally I won’t when someone asks me the same thing in Indonesia… You, obviously, wouldn’t understand something like that.why do Indonesians think if a bule criticises their country he / she has a major problem
Not bules, Andy – you.
If I criticise Indonesia – and I do, often – PN, AAB et al will doubtless call me an Anglo-Celtic neocolonialist pedophile (no problem, I can take it from the little brown men 😉 ), but really, deep down they will respect me (well, maybe, just a little bit 😉 ) because, quite obviously, I don’t have a “major problem” with Indonesia.
But no one will respect you Andy, because you do, quite obviously, do have a “major problem”, a very major one indeed… -
… oh yeah, just to spell it out (“Indonesian hordes” and all that) – I am, yes indeed, a big, bad BOOLAY (a very seksi one mind you…)
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ Andy
AAB, why do you believe all Anglo Celtic bules are pedophiles and Aussies white power advocates?
Facts and figures speak for itself. I must add that they are hypocrite and loud-mouth as well. An Asian family can walk down Lygon Street without having to look over their shoulders; an Asian kid enrolled in Oakleigh’s Greek Orthodox school will not be taunted because of their skin colour. Maltese, Macedonians, et al are peaceful.
If this response is not censored by our dear Patung, you could probably tell us why your kind is the most troublesome.
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Human Rights?
I rarely, if ever mentioned anything about them.
They are completely subjective and unequally applied to nations.
The worst Human Rights abusers include the USA-but as it’s a Western nation that speaks English and has excellent BS spin ability but no one ever criticises them- most probably due to economic-political motivations.Human rights are an excellent tool for non-substantiated accusations used by many Western nations to justify their political agenda in attacking non-cooperative non Western nations..
Example- very few allegations from Irian can meet the standards of court admissible evidence as they are based on unsubstantiated rumour, hearsay and anecdote without supporting proof- yet are taken as gospel by vested interest NGO’s with at least political support from Western leaders (there is also the issue of funding directly from Western governments to NGO’s).
Why is Irian often commented about- purely economic motivations- it has the world’s largest deposits of gold and copper, probably other top tier minerals as well. Australia and UK want in- they’re not too keen on Freeport-McMoran having total monopoly of that vast mineral wealthWhy is Iran always in the news as being the greatest evil since Hitler- when it does basically nothing at all aside from arm the enemies of US and Israel- allowing the bullied to finally hit back a little and give the bully a bloody nose?
Economics- world’s 3rd largest deposits of oil- maybe 2nd largest deposits of gas hydrocarbons. Thus it is in America’s strategic geo-political and economic interests to have total monopoly on oil industry. Oil can not then be used as an economic weapon against American foreign policy- as had occurred during 1973 and 1979 Oil Crises, and the US dollar is valued according to oil futures, not the Gold Standard (this in part explains why the Chinese RMB is worth less than the US dollar- despite China having much larger gold deposits)
You will note Indonesia has reasonably good freedom of speech, worship political affiliation and rights to association- US an China do not.
Indonesia does not execute prisoners and then sell their organs on the black market (as alleged China does), nor does it invade sovereign nations illegally for obtain lucrative strategic resources (as the US provably does).Indonesia is not blameless- but there are many worse nations around the world, so in the grand scheme of things, Indonesia is barely worth having temper tantrums about.
And actually Andy, Indonesian pop art is the number one world best seller right now- as mainland Chinese pop art has priced itself too high in the art market.
Singapore has a busy Indonesian art auctions scene – so perhaps Indonesian artists are not household names to the average Joe – but those learned art dealers are aware of them and appreciate it.
There are many brilliant Russian artists I am personally unaware of- does this mean they are no good, hack glorified house-painters or “they cannot make it” too?
Or am I to blame being ignorant or uninformed?I’m sure if an Indonesian masqueraded as an oppressed Buddhist Tibetan – or smiling Myanmar Monk the Western world would fall over themselves to fawn over him and buy for ludicrous sums whatever childish scribbles he put on paper.
The West loves emotive Romanticism and the fantasy of the exotic Oriental. When realities do not fit that bizarre unrealistic remnant colonial construct of the Western mind of this exotic East- the Westerner is confused, conflicted, disappointed and acts out.The West also loves the story of the tormented artists the underdog (Romanticism again) and celebrity idols to worship. Unfortunately celebrity is something a bit foreign to the ideals of Asian culture- as the individual is expected to be humble- not self aggrandize and sole subject of attention.
Indonesia is a very complex riddle and paradox with few easy answers or solutions- so it is normal someone from a more privileged background questions the many apparent injustices of Indonesia.
It is almost a rule those from New countries like US, Australia-NZ and Canada that have the most problems- probably as their nations are very new and do not have the ancient ingrained cultures of say Japan, UK or other European nations.
Japan and UK are not too dissimilar from Indonesia- huge gaps between rich and poor, privileged ruling classes, extreme long term poverty, minimal upward class movement, grubby, crumbling monuments the whole place looking like it needs a thorough scrub.The optimists’ “change the world” mindset is not so much there – why? They realise the problems are far too complex and deep-rooted to ever be rectified as easily as they can be in the New World.
No- we’re not all psychologists- some of us like to play dress-ups and pretend we’re Sigmund Freud.
Probably as we can analyse the faults we see in others that we in fact have ourselves- but do not like to admit it.PS have a hug Andy. Time to bury the hatchet. Not in my head please.
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Mr. Andys,
Friend, Mr. Hugh Jackman, Pak Bryan Brown and Pak Heath Ledger all left the Australia. Besides, they’re actors and play characters, ranging from psychotic comic-book villains to superheroes and vampire hunters.
Seksi Friend, It is Mr. Kevin Bloody Wilson who sings of the Australian realities of fartin’ and rootin’ in the back of a ute. It is he who talks of chucking browneyes, calling on the audience to do the same.
Chucka Browneye Andy !
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Japan and UK are not too dissimilar from Indonesia- huge gaps between rich and poor, privileged ruling classes, extreme long term poverty, minimal upward class movement, grubby, crumbling monuments the whole place looking like it needs a thorough scrub.
You’ve got to be joking…How can you seriously compare their poor to your own. Really. The richest Indonesians are richer than most westerners but the UK and Japan still have a welfare state and the working class can still have a beer / sake / roast dinner / sushi meal. Far better than what you afford your pembantus pal.
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Timdog…
Nah, I don’t think I did misunderstand you 😀 and admittedly I have ended up saying the same thing…
I just think to compare Andy to anyone who makes arguments with anything more than anecdotal evidence is unfair. Andy is pretty much all anecdotal with the odd link here and there much in the same vein as AAB.
For example, the idea that human rights crimes in Indonesia are OK but they are a heinous crime everywhere else in the world. Ahhh perhaps Andy needs to take a trip to a few other places and then modify the statement. Some might argue that locking refugees and illegal migrants in detention centres that look like jails is a human rights violation! So, maybe he would not have to go to far at all.
I think we are on the same page I think but just at different reference or starting points.
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Andy said:
Timdog, why do you think Indonesians can do what they like when in their country? Don’t good manners cross all cultural boundaries?
Timdog (honorary big-nose member of the “Indonesian horde”) said:
A whole bunch of stuff that amounted to a thorough refutation of Andy’s above line.
Andy said:
Nothing.
Andy? Hello??!!?
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@ Rob
You have to stop bashing your own kind. Andy, though doltish and opinionated, is being honest here. From my many years in Ostraya, Andy’s view undeniably represents the whole Anglo-Celts descents population, and their poor perception of anyone non-White. For instance, have you checked with your mates what they think of Kev Rudd’s apology to the Abos?
I just think to compare Andy to anyone who makes arguments with anything more than anecdotal evidence is unfair. Andy is pretty much all anecdotal with the odd link here and there much in the same vein as AAB.
A Brown man’s testimony is anecdotal, whereas a Whitey is universal – I see a resemblance of Andy-cum-Rob-cum-Anglo-Celt’s mindset. 🙂
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Skah mat, AAB.
An excellent move to take the Queen with a Knight, while we were all preoccupied with the pawn…
Facts, truth, empirical data, statistic- nothing matters to a mind that’s already made up.
The New Zealanders and British find Australians in general boring and boorish, opinionated and unjustifiably puffed up about themselves. Nothing new, really.
Andy is just especially hostile as he is simplistic and cannot cope with complexities of realities.
And he’s just hostile because his Javanese girl dumped him.
Had he swallowed his pride- he might be the flag-waving clarion of Indonesia -
Mets says:
@ Andy – you really are one of a kind….reading your comments is like trying to read Bleak House but written by Kafka……
If you feel that going on IM is going to replaced a much needed “penis extension” I think you are poorly mistaken….its irrelevant whether people disagree or agree with each others viewpoints…the arguments put forward by others are generally placed with some kind of intellect…but you seem to internalise comments, insisting everyone is stupid and you are the all supreme being…
Could you not buy yourself a porshe or something if your going through the first stage of midlife crisis, because taking it out amongst your peers (in theory – so pls other IM members dont take offence) on IM is not going to give you your much needed male ego boost…
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Purba-And he’s just hostile because his Javanese girl dumped him.
Had he swallowed his pride- he might be the flag-waving clarion of IndonesiaWrong again….she didn’t dump me, I dumped her after I found out about what she was doing and then she wanted me back. Where did I ever say she dumped me? Again, please learn to read or stop misquoting me. Same as a few other posters saying I hate ALL Indonesians. Not true, I only want to point out the problems that need fixing to blind racist nationalists like you..Funny how you construe everything Aussie or Anglo Celt as racist when all you and your fellow posters ever do is spew racist venom at all and sundry.
If I really hated Indonesia because of my ex gf why stay an extra few years? My reasons are pretty obvious if you could psychologise…Institutionalised racism, the inablility to buy property, the need to always leave the country and renew visa when my country is more than fair to people like you…These and many other reasons Purba..If you really think we are either as / more racist than your lot why can Indonesians migrate to Australia, set up here, buy business and property and claim Centrelink benefits. Not bad really is it..Then what does your government do for us? Nothing but take our money..Pretty simple really-you are the racists, we are too fair aren’t we.
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AAB, we did apologise to the indigineous people….Time for your boys to apologise to the Timorese, Papuans, Achenese etc etc etc….And the blood is on your hands for the millions who were killed in the year of living dangerously.. Apologise now then. I’m waiting.
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Mets, mmmm penis extension, never thought of that really. Don’t get any complaints in that department….I’m sure I could more than satisfy you too me dear mmmm
Actually I just like to amuse myself by reading what you and the other nationalists say about me.
Timdog, hello too!!!!!Don’t you know we are on different time zones. I was asleep or watching the footy show when you assumed I couldn’t reply to you. Seems Indonesians and their lapdogs like you like to make assumptions about me that aren’t true…..
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So, where is my reply?
Is the fact that I’m not Indonesian confusing you? Are you finding it hard to deal with that a fellow white-boy could think that your outlook on Indonesia is utterly ridiculous, and, quite frankly, embarrassing? Is that it?
Would it help if I pretended to be Indonesian? Would that give you the little dose of self-confidence needed? Ok-dech!Misterrrrr, I thinks you stay Indonesia after putus girlfriend coz still sexual refugee, coz still want jiggy-jig but no can with Australia girl coz Australia girl no like Andy, must find new pacar Indonesia if want jiggy-jig, ya kan? I right, misterrrr?
Misterrrrr, you said:
Don’t good manners cross all cultural boundaries?
I said, misterrrr not very clever if he think that (see previous post)… respond misterrrr, pleeeeease….
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@ Timdog – good one!!
@ Andy – this has nothing to do with culture clash, race issues etc etc…YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL IS RUDE, UNEDUCATED (PLS DONT START SPOUTING YOUR DEGREES ANYONE CAN STUDY AND PASS A DEGREE), UNCULTURED, ARROGANT & OPINIATED………SAD THING IS …YOU JUST DONT SEE IT!!!!!
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Oigal says:
Aww ..Andy is pinching all the insults I used to get…unfair
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janma says:
Apologise now then. I’m waiting.
sounds like you want them to apologise to you andy…..
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@ All, might wanna ask Oigal what he thinks about the apology. He has some opinions on it. But he hasn’t answered my question as to whether or not any wrongs were done to Australia’s indigenous inhabitants, so I’ll leave it to you folks.
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Ah Assmad..How can I answer when you keep changing the question..last week it was compensation and now its an Apology..
Put down your plaything and pay attention this time ok:
No i don’t think an apology was correct as it assumes generational guilt, which is a simply a nonsense (unless of course you part of the “wandering jew” school of lame logic).
That does not mean that I oppose in any shape or form any viable proposal to lift the Aborginal communities out of the situation many find themselves in (Fairly sure even a hand written note from myself saying sorry will do sqaut ..or about as much as the hollow man Rudd’s little piece of symbolic but ultimately fruitless excercise in wankese).
I also think its great that crimes against humanity are being pursued with more rigor internationally (despite Indonesian and Chinese blocking efforts… Burma ..child soldiers..another proud foreign relations coup). These efforts make the lowlifes think twice about traveling and the noose is ever present. However, to say that their children or children’s children must apologise is simply bizarre.
As I have said on many occassions now, I don’t support the term “sorry” or the term “compensation” but do support assistance . But I don’t know how that could be done. Many times, I have thrown the question back at you but like the rest of the latte sipping leftist whingers, you are big on words but very low on actual solutions…MMmm reminds me of the other famous rocksinger/social reformer..Peter Garret..finally elected to parliment and has achieved high praise as Minister for Plastic Bags…wanker
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You never answered the question as to why you think australian aboriginals would deserve any assistance.
How about words like:
Dispossession?
Colonization ?
and
Outright murder ?Of course it was “inevitable” that Australia was “settled.” Gee, funny how “settled” sounds different to dispossession or murder.
Mechanisms for how it could be done ? A long process. But sorry is a start. Sending in soldiers to do the job isn’t the answer, but I can see as an ex-soldier how you think it might be. When you’re a hammer, every problem is a nail.
The real world is more complicated than an army barracks or that back room in the defense department in Canberra, Oigsy-Poigsy. I suggest you join it.
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Oigal, about reconsillyation…. I agree the concept seems a little… ahem. silly… but I don’t entirely agree with you about generational guilt. I do think that australians of later generations have a share, in that, lets say, responsibility rather than guilt. We (or at least Australians that live in Australia) are enjoying the fruits of living in a country that not so long ago was someone else s, and that someone else is definitely not enjoying the fruits of said country in an equal manner (for whatever reason). So, although I don’t know what can be done about it, I would say we definitely share a part of the burden of that history.
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Janma,
That’s the problem.
Whose “country” was it ?
To the ancestors of the people we call “aboriginals” there wasn’t a “country” in terms of an Australia-shaped geographic land mass settled by a single people. There was the Aranda, Iora, Murray, Pindjinjarra etc.
Did tribal boundaries extend across the whole country ? Did the groups collectively own the whole country ?
Still, Oigal, that’s no reason for shooting them.
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timdog-So, where is my reply?
timdog or should I say indo lapdog, reply to what? Abuse and counter abuse,we could go on forever but you never asked me a question in the first place and when you do you will get an answer. To abuse me and call me a sexual refugee amongst other names is pathetic….No I have never needed to go to Indonesia for sex mate…I got it right up to the time I left my country for Indo ok….satisfied.
Also for your information, I got laid 1,000 times more in Java than in Bali (I do remember you mumbling something about not getting it like in Bali or being the king).
So why are you there then? Long way from home for you isn’t it? Blok M or Jaksa boy? Fill us in… -
Mets, wow sounds like a bit of sexual frustration there…Releasing a bit of energy on this forum aren’t we?
I will debate you when you grow up and debate on moral rather than nationalistgrounds because for you it’s ok for your friends here to call ALL bules pedophiles and you to call whites drug peddlers but not ok for us to point out your human rights abuses which are documented by many agencies (not me exclusively).
So when your ready and you become human I will pull out my debating sword.
PS could you send us a pic of you in a sexy police uniform?
Comment on “Dutch War Crimes”.
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Timdog…
It is an unfavourable comparison and unfair.
I have had my disagreements with the dude with the elf name (AKA Lairedion) but his arguments whether I agree or disagree or always well argued and usually passionately.
I make no correlation at all between Indonesians criticising their country of birth and their patriotism for example. Particularly where the goal is to see things better, to see people treated better, and to see everyone get a fair go.
I sometimes get a little pissed and that sterotyping and generalizations and the idea of everything being explained aways as part of the white man’s burden or the failure of foreigners to understand the Indonesian context.
Yet, IM is all about the to and fro. Lairedion is a bloke that I think of a coffee or a beer we could have a lively conversation, disagree, and not come to blows.
Andy’s comment highlight that he has had a very negative experience in Indonesia and generally chooses to lump everyone into the one category. That is his right. But as you point out it has reached a level where most people just go “whatever” and then carry on with their business. Andy is, at least in my view, in a class of his own or perhaps the equivalent of AAB. Even PN tries to justify his views on some factual grounds, rightly or wrongly.