827 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”

1. corduroy says:

   September 10, 2008 at 11:57 pm

   @ Berlian Biru:

   Your statistics are wrong. In fact, during the four years Indonesian war of independence (1945-1949), more than 4000 Dutch soldiers were killed, along with 1200 British soldiers (including two generals), and around 2000 Japanese soldiers who fought on the side of the British. Not to mention the 2000 white settlers killed by the enraged Indonesian population. It’s all documented in the respective official war histories of Netherlands and Britain. Not bad, Indonesia inflicted more deaths on the invading forces compared with today’s Iraqi or Afghan insurgents.

   This Dutch definately must financially compensate Indonesia, as in 1949 Round Tables’ Conference, Indonesia was forced to assume repayment responsisbilies over the billions of dollars of debt incurred by the Netherlands Indies colonial government. By the time Indonesia abrogated the unfair treaty, we’ve paid more than 80% of that amount.

   Not only content with sucking Indonesia dry for centuries and committing horrendous massacres up until end of war of independence, the Dutch crippled the Indonesian economy for the next decade after independence through this unfair debt repayment clause. It is only fair that the Dutch compensate us over their bandit economic exploitation.

2. Lairedion says:

   September 11, 2008 at 5:48 am

   Patung, thanks for embedding those Youtube videos. To all, thanks for your comments.

   While I was watching TV last Monday night and this topic was all over it I decided to post an article immediately because of the significance of this particular case in which for the first time the Dutch State officially will be hold responsible for crimes committed in their former colony.

   Rob said:

   BTW…I think the Dutch government should pay up with an apology at the very least and an acknowledgment of what transpired. Where there are living victims they should be compensated financially on an individual basis. Finally, the Dutch government should provide a community fund that can be used to develop the local community.

   Good point, Rob.

   RI has never pressed for apologies and compensation. I would like to add that financial compensation between states in this situation is too complicated to work out. What amounts should be paid and who’s entitled to receive compensation? And the Dutch couldn’t have done it (colonialism) without the help of local royals and sultans. Compensation can be done in the form of scholarships, assistance in building infrastructure and conservation of nature and wildlife, water management to battle floods etc. are of much more benefit and value for Indonesia. But that’s my personal opinion.

   In this particular case of Rawagede payments and/or support directly to the next of kin and the local community are justified. Here we have clear evidence war crimes have been committed and up to now no-one has been prosecuted, sentenced or taken responsibility while witness accounts, the UN report, survivors etc. are still there. Plus we have more and more Dutch veterans admitting war crimes have been committed during the two police actions.

   I really would like to see the Dutch government on behalf of the Dutch people be humble and gracious enough to at least acknowledge and accept the demands put down by the KUKB (see their original online petition here).

3. Oigal says:

   September 11, 2008 at 8:26 am

   Assmad

   abos and bungs deserved to die

   ????? WTF

   I know it’s increasing difficult for you continue to display a lack any depth as a human being. I further understand you find it difficult to hold a conversation in adult company particulary when your sad and predictable strawman agruements are challenged. However, perhaps at least you display a modicum of personal integrity (you may have to seek assistance with that word) and do not attribute outright and repugant lies as quotes from me. It’s fully expected that you misquote, outright lie and play the selective omission game and I am happy to enterain an overeducated, shallow twit like you when I have the time but really is a bit low (although a forte of yours)

   Interestingly (and sadly because its not that strong a point), I can only assume that by outright lying you have no suitable rejoiner. My point was valid but its really easy to take an realistic alternative position. Would you like some help without the lies, I could take the “nay” side for you and demostrate.

4. Berlian Biru says:

   September 11, 2008 at 9:08 am

   @corduroy

   My figures come from “A History of Modern Indonesia” by Adrian Vickers, if I recall Mr Vickers is an occasional commentator in this forum, perhaps Patung could ask him to come on here and confirm whether your casualty figures are correct.

5. Achmad Sudarsono says:

   September 11, 2008 at 9:32 am

   Ah, Oigsie,

   Easy does it, Big Fella. Easy !

   The argument “where does it stop?” is one conservatives and apologists for tyrants have used throughout history. In the 1,000 years Europe was tinkering with democracy, starting with the magna carta kings and tyrants used it.

   The French aristocracy certainly did during the French Revolution. This is the system, they said. It might not be perfect, but it works. This supposed democracy will be anarchic ! Chaos ! Their sneaky apologists refined the arguments. Just as you are doing.

   Saying, “where would it stop,” is a very convenient argument for those who like the status quo. In Australia’s case, it’s often privileged, white, university-educated managers — like you. In terms of compensation and reparation, sure no system would be perfect (you say the current arrangement isn’t). Something can be worked out. It’ll take time. It’ll be messy. But so was democracy.

   On the abos and bungs comment — it wasn’t an outright lie, just the logical consequence of your argument that “the invasion had to happen.” “If we didn’t do it, someone else would have,” you said. Deal with it. Live with it. Meanwhile you salve your conscience ranting and rabbiting on about Papua and Tim2.

   Some English tips:

   “seek assistance,” just say “get help”

   “Modicum of personal integrity,” – just say “some integrity” (integrity by definition is personal).

   “suitable rejoinder,” – just say “rejoinder.”

   Over to you, Big Fella.

   BTW to help build cultural bridges between Australia and Indonesia, I am launching a series called “Appreciating Australia,” starting with a profile of Kevin Bloody Wilson.

6. Oigal says:

   September 11, 2008 at 10:35 am

   it’s often privileged, white, university-educated managers — like you

   Laugh..not even two of of three..

7. Oigal says:

   September 11, 2008 at 10:58 am

   It was an outright lie as is

   Deal with it. Live with it

   .and even you know that would not does not represent my opinion..cheap nasty and lie but hey why should we expect less.

   Let’s see in your pretend world, if the british never turned up no one else would have..mmm..Interesting drugs they must have on your world. In fact what I said was compensation is an such a complex issue I don’t how it would be approached but like the vast majority of Australians would support any viable plan.

   I notice that when asked to provide perhaps a modicum of thought towards a solution, you set a low standard and failed to reach even that. Do you have anything to offer besides attributing lies to others and inane insults at the expense of others? I suspect not. Its a yet another sad reflection on you that you find the Plight of Aborginal Australia just yet more grist for your mill (but then you have proven that no ones suffering or pain is beneath your cheap and nasty excuse for humour, shallow is as shallow does).

   Thanks for the English Lesson.. I was amazed to learn that the only defination for Integrity was personal… So a company cannot have it integrity questioned? Structural Integrity does not exist..*ah that explains A** Air)..Bit confused how you qauntify a subjective noun by “some” but hey I ain’ts uni educated

   Kev Wilson..well its about as relative as anything you add to society..so fill ya boots

8. ROb says:

   September 11, 2008 at 11:14 am

   Achmad…

   Plain English language tips. Most native speakers of the language are not into plain language when writing mainly because they are not familiar with the concepts.

   You are also the first “Indonesian” that I have seen offer tips of this kind. I actually teach a number of plain language courses for lawyers and business people. So, in this regard I have had plenty of contact with those interested in this subject. As I said, you’re the first Indonesian I have seen wanting to offer such services.

   Perhaps we could meet up and discuss the business opportunities in this field? I am overloaded with work and need someone to take on some of the people and companies that I am having to turn away.

   Just a thought!

9. Achmad Sudarsono says:

   September 11, 2008 at 11:14 am

   Oigal,

   Do you think the Aboriginals deserve compensation ?

   What do you think the Aboriginals would deserve to be compensated for ?

10. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    September 11, 2008 at 11:23 am

    Dear Ogle,

    The context makes it clear it was personal integrity. Hence a redundant word.

    Your anti-Assmad, hence anti-Indonesian tirades will have more power if you strip the language to a minimum. See the Gettysburg Address, me old chimmy-chumster, or the King James Bible, for examples of strong, vivid language.

    Put in the big ones, matie !

    Dear Rob,

    Thanks, but my poetry, ukulele & lovin’ takes up all my time.

    Appreciate the offer, though !

    Is there a demand for such courses ? If so, surprised, the information’s out there.

11. Rob says:

    September 11, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Achmad…

    There is a demand for such courses…It is one thing to be self-taught through reading about it with freely available resources and it is another thing to be taught the method to the madness that is plain English writing.

12. Oigal says:

    September 11, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    ASSMAD.. Do try not be so pretentious really it’s so silly coming from you.

    anti-Assmad, hence anti-Indonesian tirades

    This may come as surprise but you do not represent anything even remotely Indonesian and it really is a tad self indugent to think so!..Now if you had said “your Anti-Assmad Anti pasty bule office johnny rent boy rant” perhaps you may have case (although a slur on rent boys).

    Speaking of self indulgent

    Do you think the Aboriginals deserve compensation ?

    after I have mentioned on any number of occasions in various forms statements such as

    compensation is an such a complex issue I don’t how it would be approached but like the vast majority of Australians would support any viable plan.

    to continue to misrepresent my opinion as you can offer anything of value to conversation is the ultimate in self indulgent.
    I assume the below was but too difficult for you

    I notice that when asked to provide perhaps a modicum of thought towards a solution

    Never mind, I don’t blame you for not even attempting to answer, its a difficult issue I admit much smarter people than me and you (in your case that would be a equivilant to House Brick IQ) have been wrestling with this for many many years now. I certainly don’t know how to approach it effectively (but this..now pay attention…doesn’t mean I oppose any plan)

    English..cool.. Really not much of teacher are you.. i still don’t get it..

    (integrity by definition is personal).

    The context makes it clear it was personal integrity.

    So first integrity by definition is personal but now context is what makes integrity personal (I assume not be definition anymore).. Wow I heard that english is an evolving language but this is amazing.

    Seriously, I apologise my going on about your trouble with the word integrity, it is beneath me. Its the same as teasing a blind man as he decribes a colour obviously he has heard of the concept but in reality…

    Now I must admit you are beginning to bore me with continual repeats of the same mantra..so unless you can lift your game add some new semi valid points or orginal insults I am going to find something more productive to do (pulling wings off a fly for instance)

    Now play your games and insults but lets try and keep the issues seperate just as a matter of respect for the more serious issues..

13. Cukurungan says:

    September 11, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    RI has never pressed for apologies and compensation. I would like to add that financial compensation between states in this situation is too complicated to work out. What amounts should be paid and who’s entitled to receive compensation?

    It is only depend on the Dutch good will, because the Italy has made good example as below :

    Italy to pay $5 billion to Libya for colonial rule – Democratic …
    BENGHAZI, LIBYA — Italy agreed Saturday to pay Libya $5 billion as compensation for its 30-year … ALL of Italia Del Nord can go to hell on this one! Racists mo-fos!

    democraticunderground

14. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    September 11, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Ok, Oigal,

    So it sounds like you support a viable plan for compensation. Seeing as I am a pasty-office-Johnny-rent boy with the IQ of a housebrick, perhaps you could help a bit. Just looking for some clarity.

    What is it you think the aboriginals deserve compensation for ?

15. Mets says:

    September 12, 2008 at 4:04 am

    @ Oigal – ‘My point has always been..good luck to them but realistically where and how to draw the line’

    I think the point that is being put across overall by us Indonesians (if we go down the route indo vr bule scenario lol!!)

    Under the Geneva Convention & the International Criminal Court = examples of various trials against war criminals (pre and upto WW2) that have taken place which acknowledges and where possible convicted on behalf of the victimize nation/ country;

    Second Sino Japanese War 1945 – majority of the conviction was awarded to Australia, America, Britain & the Dutch as they were the imperial/ ruling countries in the far east

    Laha massacre 1942 – blatantly on Indonesian soil – but recognition was awarded to the dutch and australians only

    & one can go on and on

    Do we not, as Indonesians have the right to be recognised that the Dutch also conducted human autrocities to us, under the geneva convention…

16. Oigal says:

    September 15, 2008 at 10:18 pm

    Laha massacre 1942 – blatantly on Indonesian soil – but recognition was awarded to the dutch and australians only

    That is a very valid point METS, you only have to look at the T’Death March with exact numbers of British, Australian Deaths known but only wild guess of the “natives” (and yet some morons here still speak warmly of the Japanese Occupiers..go figure).

    However what is more disappointing and in my opinion more important and relevent what has changed after 60 years of self rule..Do the little people count for squat? Is that still the fault of the dutch? Sidoarjo anyone?

    But hey just for fun, lets say the Dutch awarded 1 billion dollars to the Indonesian Government as a good will gesture/compensation..Where would it go? and whose fault would that be?

17. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    September 16, 2008 at 8:25 am

    Oigal,

    No problem. It could just go straight into either the central bank’s foreign currency reserves, APBN, or, say, the direct payments to the poor.

    You still haven’t said what you think the aboriginals deserve payments for. What sort of injustices happened to them ?

18. Mets says:

    September 16, 2008 at 1:39 pm

    @ Oigal – the award is made to the private citizens direct – waivering the administration fees – if this becomes a large sum, a support package in administering the money to the client group by the dutch is given, ensuring sustainment of income for the family as this will be part of their legacy to their immediate families future – thats the ultimate noble route

    @ Achmad – give direct to the poor, we would not need to consider the adminstration costs; automatically to fund this kind of project a standard 35 – 40% would need to be topsliced for project management, this does not include capital assessts (if required) etc etc…not a criticism just a thought???

19. Mets says:

    September 16, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    @ Achmad – I was trying to say “would we not” lol !!

20. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    September 16, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    @ Mets,

    Probably, but the good Mr. Oigal has touched on a classic question, euphemistically known as “absorption capacity.” Unfortunately, I think it comes down to two choices at this point in history:

    1. Accept a certain amount will be ripped off and the money gets spent. Just how much is acceptable is an open debate and really the central question in the public corruption debate.

    2. Accept 0 % will be ripped off and no money gets spent.

    Yes, there will be administration costs, which might get fiscal conservatives up in arms. But sorry, folks, government costs money.

21. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    September 16, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    @ Mets, @ Oigal,

    Oops ! Are we talking about Indonesia or Australia ? They’ve had more time to build proper systems down there, hence better “absorption capacity,” much as I loathe that awful bureaucrat-speak.

22. purba negoro says:

    September 16, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Oigal diverges from the main argument.
    All comments so far have been utterly irrevlevent emotive digressions into the non-related or appeals to “wisdom of the masses”- an obvious oxymoron.

    This is the common tactic of the irrational when cornered by the overwhelming persuasive l9ogic of the opponent’s argument.
    But it fails to defeat either logic or fact.

    The facts are Dutch massacred thousands of Indonesians during an attempt to reoccupy.
    killed millions during Cultuurstelsel system
    destroyed native systems f authority and rule
    dispossessed people from their lands
    confiscated lands and property
    gave confiscated lands to a hostile and non-assimilating exploitative illegal alien
    enforced slave and bonded labour
    widespread rape
    witholding even basic medical aid

    You have to get it out of your head that Dutch colonialism was anything like that of the British.
    The Dutch did nothing but steal, pillage and extract- not even building one university, one hospital or even an agricultural bank for the natives.

    Compare this to India where the British built the first university in early 1800s- where Indians allowed to study and thousands of kilometer of rail-way, the postal system, and community schools and libraries.

    Dutch “enlightened” colonialism was only ever half-heartedly introduced circa 1920.
    The only rail-lines the Dutch ever built were from the plantations to the port.
    Java had barely any roads during the Dutch.

    The first university open to Native Indonesians was Gadjah Mada built by Sukarno.
    The first non-Catholic or non Islamic primary school open to natives was built by Sukarno.

    However the whites were treated in internment camps- their life was infinitely better and better fed than the average Indonesian- and hardly the fault of unarmed starving Indonesians either.

    The Dutch “justice system” included:
    death by sawing in half
    death by burning
    death by public beheading, followed by leaving head on pikes and body parts in gibbets till they disintegrated- in complete contempt of Muslim law of dayafter-death burial

    Berlian biru:
    Your arguments are incorrect. Do not attempt to belittle our glorious struggle against the Nazi-ilke Dutch.
    Your Apartheid apologist argument is insulting in the extreme.

    At first, the Dutch were attempting to impose a puppet state which would effectively hobble the Nationalists’ ” Independence or Bust” via a compromise.

    Do not forget the East Indies were contributing approx 70% of Dutch total GDP.
    The first parts of Indonesia secured late in the war were the strategic oil facilities.
    Therein lies the economic motivation.

    Do not delude yourserlf into thinking Dutch are anything more than opportunistic bloodsucking greedy degenerates.
    Do not delude yourself into thinking Dutch are anything more than opportunistic bloodsucking greedy degenerates.

    The De Beers consortium, the Antwerp-Amsterdam blood-diamond laundering etc diamond are excellent examples- without even mentioning Botha’s Apartheid.

    Every Dutch establishment and social club was whites only. Some Chinese allowed in if accompanied by a Dutch.

    Then Dutch Conservatives took power and attempted military occupation- scrapping the compromise of Federation of East Indies- using 60,000 British soldiers- including the combat veterans of the 5th Division that had defeated Rommel.
    Many Indians of these British divisions either chose to either non-combat, or outright solidarity with the Indonesian Republicans and changed sides.

    The British poured reinforcements into Surabaya and on 9 November demanded the Indonesians surrender. The following day two cruisers and three destroyers together with tanks and artillery began shelling the city while RAF fighter bombers dropped 1500lb bombs on rebel strong points. Only after three days of street fighting was the city taken. Altogether British and Indian casualties were over 900 killed and wounded, while Indonesian casualties were estimated at over 10,000.

    Total British and Indian casualties were:
    620 killed
    1447 wounded
    327 missing.
    Over 1,000 Japanese troops were killed fighting alongside the British.
    Indonesian casualties are estimated at 20,000 dead. The scale of the fighting was a complete shock to the British and played a significant part in convincing the generals that it would not be possible to hold Burma or India against a population in revolt.

    Soon after the end of WWII, 25,000 volunteers (among them 5,000 marines) had been sent overseas. They were later followed by larger numbers of conscripts from the Netherlands. In the offensive, Dutch forces drove Republican troops out of parts of Sumatra, and East and West Java. The Republicans were confined to the Yogyakarta region of Java. To maintain their force in Java, now numbering 100,000 troops, the Dutch gained control of lucrative Sumatran plantations, and oil and coal installations, and in Java, control of all deep water ports.

    The high numbers of Indonesians killed reflect the civilian death toll.

    The Dutch were very famous for giving British pilots incorrect information which made them strafe refugees fleeing on roads, civilians, incendiary bombing (and creating fire-storms in villages) etc.

    In the Battle of Surabaya:
    Republicans numbered 20,000 infantry and 100,000 irregulars
    against the British combat veterans of 30,000 with tanks, aircraft and warships.

    General Sudirman’s brilliant strategy was to avoid any major contact with the Dutch main army, thus denying Dutch any major victories.

    He would prefer lost territory but gain extra time to consolidate his army. This was controversial at the time- but soon we had fully terrorized the hardest Dutch units of Marines with effective psychological warfare strategies.

    Estimates of Indonesian deaths in fighting range from 45,000 to 100,000 and civilian casualties exceeded 25,000 and may have been as high as 100,000

    But the best comes from a Dutchman himself:
    He was increasingly displeased with the haughty and contemptuous attitude of fellow soldiers to the local population, and was present at some bloody incidents which greatly increased his disaffection. As he many years later explained, Poncke Princen:
    “An adolescence under Nazi rule and two years in German imprisonment has directed my life and made me fight against cruelty. I thought the Indonesians were right. I thought they should be the ones to decide their own future. (…) I was disgusted with the Dutch killing people I admired”

    I will say as my father said to me- a hero who fought Dutch and British, if every Dutch today were killed, or tortured- it would still be but a drop in the ocean compared to the horrors of the Dutch.

    The Japanese were indeed at times brutal- but NOTHING COMPARED TO THE DUTCH.

    Here I list the Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes the Dutch are well-documented to have committed over 350 years of brutal occupation worse than the Apartheid of South Africa:

    Article 1 of the UN War Crimes Commission’s Statute Book Decree no 44 of 1946 explicitly excluded Dutch citizens from the range of perpetrators for War Crimes- yet detailed that:
    the following were committed in violation of the Geneva Convention on War Crimes 1919.
    A disgraceful denial of justice to the non-white.

    The KNIL was involved in many campaigns against indigenous groups in the Netherlands East Indies including the Padri War (1821–1845), the Java War (1825–1830), crushing the Puputan (the final resistance of Bali inhabitants to colonial rule) of 1849, and the prolonged Aceh War (1873–1904).

    Crimes include
    Murder and Massacres
    Systematic Terrorism
    Putting Hostages to Death
    Torture of Civilians- plenty of houses in Semarang left as vacant museums to Dutch SS-like tactics
    The Dutch made such willing and decorated Nazi soldier- how could they not know such tortures?
    DELIBERATE STARVATION OF CIVILIANS
    RAPE
    Abduction f women and girls for forced prostitution
    Deportation of Civilians
    Inhumane internment of civilians
    Forced labour of civilians
    Usurpation of Sovereignty during military occupation
    Compulsory enlistment of inhabitants under military occupation
    Pillage
    Confiscation of Property
    Wanton destruction of religious, charitable, educational or historic buildings
    Destruction of fishing boats
    Destruction of monuments
    Use of exploding or expansive bullets or other inhumane bullets
    Directions to give no quarter
    Employment of POW on unauthorized works
    Using False flags of truce for combat
    Poisoning of wells
    Ill treatment of internees or civilian
    Cruel and unusual punishments or manner of death penalty
    Refusal of aid
    Withholding medical aid

    More Dutch on Dutch:
    ”
    Gus Blok was conscripted into the army and shipped off to a land unlike anything he’d ever seen before. He’s a big man, with a handshake that can pulverize those of less hearty individuals. “We were there, admiring the beautiful nature, the beautiful women, but we were not thinking about morality . . . that happened when we were back.”
    “I didn’t shoot them, but I tortured them and I beat them up. I put them in the sun till they fell down. I was never told to do it — you just grow into it. Isn’t it terrible? They didn’t tell me to torture people, that was my own doing. I wanted to do my job well.”
    Joop Hueting is still almost apoplectic when he recalls the event nine years ago. “I wrote [to the newspapers] that we should give a big present to show our sorrow and regret to the Indonesian people — give ‘The Nightwatch’, give a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh.” In fact the Queen presented the Indonesian people with a Friesian cow. ”

    A cow,” splutters Mr Hueting. “Very rude. That’s part of the Dutch soul, this rudeness.”

    I suggest you use you put your penny dreadful Dutch apologist pulpfiction of Adrian Vickers back into the scrap paper bin where it belongs.

    Many sources- including Rickleffs :”A History of Modern Indonesia”,
    http://war_forgiveness.soundprint.org/HollandEssay.php

23. Oigal says:

    September 16, 2008 at 10:14 pm

    Oops ! Are we talking about Indonesia or Australia ? They’ve had more time to build proper systems down there, hence better “absorption capacity

    What a nice little cop out that is.. More time as opposed to Sth Korea, Japan (who were bombed back to the stone age, even the oz comparision is faulty. The depression had led Australia into what could only be compared to a failed state status.

    Sooner or later time has to come to look inward perhaps?

24. Mets says:

    September 17, 2008 at 2:18 am

    @ Achmad – for the dutch to pick the costs to pay the indonesian private citizens…..hope Im making sense

25. Andy says:

    September 17, 2008 at 3:55 am

    good point oigal….

    Our history was far from easy..Indonesians love pointing out to us our convict history. Well how did a country built on convict labour from scratch become one of the successful nations in the region? mmmm hard work I guess. After the convict era we have had 2 major depressions , 2 world wars (when most of the healthy male labour was fighting on the battle field) and numerous national disasters. The great depression of the 30s was particularly harsh as we relied so much that time on primary produce and the world simply wasn’t consuming the way they were. 30% unemployment and widespread povery was the result.

    Even Darwin had a huge cyclone in 1974. The city was devastated and nearly all rubble. 3/4 of the population moved south at that time but go there now and you see a modern thriving city with many fine restaurants, bars and tourist attractions (the cyclone museum being one)

    As usual, when a successful nation has a problem, we rolled up our sleeves and reinvented ourselves without looking to our neighbours for a handout.

    And yes, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong are other examples of nations that with a bit of backbone became successful.

    Even Cambodia, even though it is only early days, has grown amazingly from the country that was ruled by the murderous Khmer Rouge.

    Time to pull up your socks Indonesia, sitting on your ass waiting for the dutch, Australia etc to bail you out of your s… will only get you so far. The rest is up to you if you have the guts to make it happen like so many others have.

26. Oigal says:

    September 17, 2008 at 8:40 am

    Andy, thanks but probably a bit of an overkill on what I was trying to say (you for some reason seem very angry with all Indonesia/ns) However “compensation” in cases such as these will never achieve anything in the long term. Primarily as it assumes the lefty wank notion of generational guilt which is obviously absurb nonsense (are you really guilty of the crimes your fathers or grandfathers committed). This in turn leads to a handout mentality or entitlement by the “victim/s” and sense of resentment by a significant portion of those who are required to pay the compensation. The end result being a never ending game of looking backwards, refighting old hatreds, blaming others and no movement forward.

    The mere issue of wear to draw the line becomes a complete buggers muddle, as ASSMAD in one of his more lucid moments pointed out in was only 60 years ago, so compensation in this case is justified! Fair enough, that would mean East Timor has significant claims, as will Papua and any number of internal provinces. Eventually the truth will come out on the 1998 riots..full compensation to the victims? The oppression of the “communists” by the new order ..full compensation?

    As time moves on and Indonesia’s dubious support of the Burma thugs, in particular (with China) blocking any efforts by the UN security council to sanction the use of child soldiers and other equally gross human Rights violations becomes unsustainable in the face of public pressure..Do the people of Burma have a compensation case against Indonesia?

    By the way the 60 years point, is silly in the exterme, next we move onto Aborginal Australia..which opens the door to Spain and the Incas..which leads back to Indonesia and the empire building/exploitation that when on long before Europeans arrived..eventually to where the Asian Races were the ones driving the aborginals south…the quest for compensation gets sillier the further you pursue it.

    The above does not mean that due to a combination of history and circumstance that people/nations should not be assisted to reach their potential in a free just society. In fact, there is a moral obiligation for rational humanist nations to provide that aid where-ever possible..It is a moral obligation of an advancing world not a guilt payment to salve the selective wounds of the outraged left.

    By the way, i happen to believe the people in this case should be provided with cash assistance due to suffeirng at the hands of a brutal military, if only because if they win the courst case howinteresting it will be to use the same arguement in other cases only putting a line thru dutch military insert TNI..reckon there is more than the odd victim around the place..

27. Purba Negoro says:

    September 17, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    Andy,
    nonsense.
    The post 1945 American Occupation of Japan combined with the Marshall Plan to divert the root attarction of Communism via US soft loans, long term low interest loans and assistant packages explains South Korea, Japan and Singapore.

    Australia was never in a state of static development imposed by Colonialism.
    Comparing a tornado in Darwin t Dutch colonialism?
    Please- it’s like comparing Port Arthur or Dunblane to the Jewish Holocaust.
    Insulting, totally incorrect and ignorant in the extreme.

    It has nothing to do with hard work whatsoever.

    This is typical Hokkien nonsensical lies well disproven by logical argument.
    Australians work hard. Australians are rich. Chinese peasants work hard. Chinese peasants are therefore rich?

    Singaporeans are rich. Singaporeans have good work ethics. Germans have good work ethics like Singaporeans. Germans are rich like Singaporeans? Nope.

    Human Rights abuses- very rich coming from a nation whose body count along with the US is higher than Mao Zedong’s .
    Australia supports illegal invasion if Iraq which kills 600,000 innocent Iraqis and steals their oil for US corporate interests.

    Doesn’t matter if the majority objected- your democratically elected government went to war- thus the blood is on your hands for having elected such warmongers.
    Therein is argument for generational guilt- the Dutch are not at all contrite for heir heinous and well documented actions.

    But Oigal and others fail to see the utter hypocrisy of applying perpetual generational guilt to the Germans re Nazism and their Jewish genocide, but not to fellow whitey on the side of Crown and Country.

    Vietnam? Yet another totally illegal Imperialist war started by the US and Gulf of Tonkin black flag preemptive war.

    Australia’s support of CIA assassinations or subversions of popularly elected socialist leaning politicians?

    Indonesia verbally supports Myanmar government maintaining sovereign right to control own security problems without undue interference within own sovereign boundaries.

    TNI’s alleged crimes are very poorly justified and all accounts are based on hearsay, rumour and anecdote- both marginal evidence in any trial of a homicide.
    Australian Intel *(oxymoron) is hardly free from the possibility of being biased if not outright “cooked” to suit Australian politico-economic interests- thus due to inherent prejudice- it also fails to meet the criteria of admissible evidence.

    The 1998 riots are easily proven to have been masterminded, funded and enabled by Chinese gangsters such as Anton Medan incriminated by his own boasts to Indonesian Human Rights hearings for favour of Wiranto and Habibie of the green faction of the TNI.

    There is no credible evidence whatsoever that any rapes took place- this has been discussed elsewhere.
    There is also no evidence whatsoever the TNI were even actually present aside from keeping the peace- all allegations are ludicrous anecdote of a prejudiced vested interest hostile minority- easily destroyed by rudimentary cross-examination.

    Andy- we have built over 400 Universities since Independence, thousands of miles of road and rail, hundreds of ferry and cargo vessels, tens of specialist universities, thousands of hospitals, including hundreds of scientific and research laboratories, 2 nuclear research reactor predating Australia’s and China’s for that matter, nuclear, hydro, conventional and geothermic power stations, the list is endless.

    Our list of specialist universities, technical colleges, vocational schools etc well outnumber Australia or even Japans.
    In fact Japan, knows precisely where the future lies- and is the largest Foreign Investor in Indonesia

    Had 1998 not happened- and our currency was marginally intact- Indonesia would be a very different place- we would have the money to continue paying for all of these wonderful additions to our nation- starting from the scorched earth we wrestled from the Dutchmans’ white claws.

    Until around 1965 ish Indonesia was THE destination for Philippines and Malaysian students to study engineering.

    Cambodia is being rebuilt by guess who’s help? Indonesian.

    Just as post-communist Russia again rises- so too will Indonesia. Even brilliant tactician Mr Putin is banking on it- building a rocket station and investing heavily in heavy-equipment factories infrastructure and mining.

    Therein lies the total error of your and Oigal’s emotive, inane and ignorant arguments.
    Both fail rudimentary logic, measurable data and historical fact.

    PS- it will be very funny watching your nation grovel by 2010 for a seat at the dinner table.

28. Andy says:

    September 17, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    PN-Andy- we have built over 400 Universities since Independence

    But you are still stupid! Can’t employ less than ten to do the job of one in a developed country. And need the help of other countries as well as foreign aid.

    Checkmate!!

29. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    September 17, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    Can’t everyone be…

    Seksi ?? 🙂 🙂

30. timdog says:

    September 17, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    Andy… time for a quiet word my friend…

    Indonesia has plenty of problems; there are plenty of criticisms to be made of the place, and these criticisms are regularly made by many Indonesians, and by many of the foreigners who know the place. Even buried in dear old PN’s rants you’ll find the kernels of some of these criticisms…
    I certainly have plenty of my own criticisms of Indonesia to make.

    Your problem however, is this: the very obvious personal bitterness and clear sense that Indonesia has somehow done you a personal wrong shines through everything you write and, ultimately, invalidates every bit of it.

    To illustrate: let’s just say I don’t like Norway (actually, I’ve never been there and know nothing of the place). Their policy on whale-hunting might be deserving of legitimate criticism, but if I lump it in with all-out attacks on the whole nation, calling it a place of stinking food, filthy weather, and drunk, Nazi-collaborating retards with no contribution to world literature r world anything… well, you could quite rightly call me a dickhead and refuse to listen to any salient points I might make about whaling…

    In this respect I’d compare you unfavorably to someone like Lairedion. He has plenty of things to say about Islam with which I wholeheartedly disagree; I have been rather rude to him in the past. However, unlike you, when he makes specific Islam-related comments about Indonesia I am, despite sometimes getting rather steamed up, able to see that he has a wider perspective on the country, and an affection for it (see the above orignal piece for example)… but not you, my friend, not you. You, quite obviously, are engaged on a bitter, personal, one-man vendetta…

    Why? Well, from what you’ve given of yourself here it’s all too easy enough to theorise. Like shooting fish in a barrel, like taking candy from a baby really…

    You seem to have come to Indonesia as a sexual refugee (never a good reason). From the ideas you have voiced here it seems clear that your experience of the rest of the world (or at very least the rest of Asia and the Islamic world) was very limited indeed at that point. You had probably been to Bali though…
    It seems that you took Indonesia’s reaction to you very personally. Probably you were expecting the reception (of pseudo-subservience) that greets the tourist in Bali to extend its privileges across the country. On discovering that actually, it was a real country, full of real people getting on with their lives (rather than a place made up entirely of groveling waiters, tour guides and prostitutes), and that in your capacity there you were, actually, a pretty low-level worker who ought to have been getting on with yours rather than a great white king to be kow-towed to and given free blowjobs, you were mightily put ought. And – oooo! – they stared at you! They disturbed you on your lunchbreak! Well, my friend, it is THEIR country, not yours, they can do what the hell they like.

    Actually, this is a very common problem with the attitude of some foreigners in Indonesia. But the fact remains, for any foreigner with a sense of humour and an acute sense of self-awareness and self-deprecation, life in Indonesia is very, very good indeed…

    I assume your sense of personal insult from Indonesia is very much tied up with the “Javanese girl”. I’d be inclined to say you’ve got no one but yourself to blame in this respect. As I said, coming to Indonesia as a sexual refugee isn’t a good idea; you probably found her in entirely the wrong way/place, and perhaps, as far as she was concerned, you weren’t much fun either… Maybe she has a pretty negative view of your country now too…

    In short, your vindictive, personal problem with Indonesia makes you look silly, and instantly invalidates your criticisms (some of which, in other circumstances, I might actually agree with). Go away, take a look at the rest of the world, get over the anger and bitterness, and come back when you’re able to confront Indonesia with some sense of perspective…

    @Achmad – speaking for myself, I’m feeling particularly seksi today…