Neighbourly Affairs

Aug 29th, 2008, in Asides, by

Posts split from Dating thread.


119 Comments on “Neighbourly Affairs”

  1. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Hi Oigal,

    Will have a think about above points and get back to you. (no – me and thinking is not an oxymoron). Brain warmed up (no again, me and brain is not an oxymoron), and am out of coffee, so must get on.

    I think we’re also arguing about the relative power of the government here. Again, its not a jibe against the “racist” west. I see the solutions as global – as it make the pie bigger as part of a global process.

    I take your points about the details like children refused food etc.

    Thanks for the thoughts, will post later.

  2. Oigal says:

    Problem is to start dismantling that elite, a country needs courts, institutions to ensure accountability, an educated populace, etc etc. For such things it needs resources, so it’s a circular problem.

    Disregarding the educational slur at the bottom of the post, I would agree with the above (which by the way has nothing to do with other countries), to a large degree until this bit “it needs resources” Are you kidding..you cannot through a pick in the ground without hitting some resource or another..

    so lets see..

    Its has the natural resources
    It has the technology (or means to get it)
    It has the population base to train and exploit the resource
    mmm..what is missing?

    Put in partical terms for the amount of wealth that has been pulled out of Sumatera over the last 20 years, name three schools of acceptable international standard in that province? Is that too much to ask of the husbands of the big hairs?

    Yet somehow you seem to be fixated that the issue in Sumatera is related to oz GDP?

  3. Odinius says:

    Oigal said:

    Odinius,

    Sorry if it appears that way (this place better than that place) my point was Indonesia is a very rich country and the people are not getting the most benefit from that wealth thanks to an uncaring elite. Unfortunately Assmad came in completely off topic with the usual psuedo Indonesian persona ..ooh its all the Wests fault (which is ok but his generalisations were so laughable that I just got sidetracked)

    Well, I just think every place is sh*t, when you really get into it. Australia, Indonesia, the US, France, Kenya, Croatia, Paraguay, etc.

    Of course, these are also all pretty nice places, full of interesting people, once you discount all the sh*t 🙂

  4. Oigal says:

    Odinius,

    Correct.. I for one cannot see myself going back to Australia for the foreseeable future for any number of reasons. You are also right that every place has its major issues.

    I really don’t care about most of the “funnies” that happen in Indonesia after all I am just passing through as such but I make no excuses for finding children begging in the street and starving repugant and hard to reconciled with the vast riches being exploited by some very few.

    I don’t even mind them getting very (filthy) rich thats an Indonesian domestic issues but surely there is not domestic excuse for not building decent schools and providing clean water? Yet time and again its always some other countries fault?

  5. Cukurungan says:

    Put in partical terms for the amount of wealth that has been pulled out of Sumatera over the last 20 years, name three schools of acceptable international standard in that province? Is that too much to ask of the husbands of the big hairs?

    Why you do not ask Exxon Mobil, Chevron and Mr Bush how many dollar have been pulled out of Aceh Gas field and Riau Oil Field over the last 40 years and compare it with few dollar (with very BIG Advertisement) had been drop to help aceh tsunami disaster…

    Pak oigal yth… I remind you do not ask too much to our elite because, if our elite could manage our weatlh for benefiting our own people…the loser will be the western elite and its people….jangan pura-2 tidak tahulah …tell me how many dollars the western elite have been benefiting from the influx interest of the tricky loan IMF to the poor countries

  6. Oigal says:

    Why you do not ask Exxon Mobil, Chevron and Mr Bush how many dollar have been pulled out of Aceh Gas field and Riau Oil Field over the last 40 years and compare it with few dollar (with very BIG Advertisement) had been drop to help aceh tsunami disaster…

    Sure Cuk, as soon as you detail the amount the Indonesian Government pulled out (whats the split 93%-7% govt to company, I am not sure) plus royalities, plus taxes..Now once you have that amount.. do let us know how much went back to Sumatera and in particular how much has been accounted for in education in the province. Whilst asking about oil company funds, you might want to pop down to Pertamina and have some fun as well.

    Cuk..Do you have anything relevent to add to this conversation?

    If our elite could manage our weatlh for benefiting our own people…the loser will be the western elite and its people

    And that would be a bad thing because???

    Strangely I agree with you that Indonesians should be running and profiting more from their own oil companies but that hasn’t been a great success so far huh..guess we need to build some schools and other basic stuff… like drinking water..starting to see the link yet cuk? or all still a bit misty?

    P.S. Bush isn’ President anymore

  7. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Hey Big Oigster,

    Just wondering what you think might be causing these attacks on Indians in Australia ? Do you think it’s Australia’s lack of racism ?

  8. Oigal says:

    Laugh… Oh thank you!!!

    … I have been waiting for ever for you to raise this one.. 🙂

    Of course, if you had gone beyond the superficial, you would know that its a classic case of yet another example of multi-culturalism gone astray. Did you happen to notice that the attacks have been conducted by sections of Lebanese community in Western Sydney and Melbourne. Fact is gang attacks and crime has risen along with the open arm migrant policy Australia as adopted over the last 20 years.

    Interestingly, there was revenge attack on three people of “Middle Eastern Appearance” two days ago by sections of the Indian Community. Although it appears these lovely law abiding students got the wrong guys..still mob rule is cultural as well isn’t it?

    Still I cannot help but wonder how much publication this wopuld have got if some white students had been attacked by the lebanese thugs..you may be right..there may be some racism here indeed.

    Of course, don’t take my word for it

    “If I finish my work, I stay there. Why? Because I know if I come back, someone [will] smash me, someone [will] take my money. I know. Because I’m not safe here. Because Australian police are s***.”

    A spokesman for the NSW Lebanese Community Council, Elie Nassif, says any individuals making trouble should be dealt with by police as a criminal matter.

    However, Mr Nassif says there has been tension in the local area between a small section of the Lebanese and Indian communities which needs to be addressed.

    “Whether we like it or not it is happening, but as community leaders we should work together to wipe all this [out],” Mr Nassif said”

    Although it does raise a grin when an Indian complains about the standard of policing, guess he hasn’t been home for awhile

    I note that you fail to mention that there has been over 20 Australians seriously attacked or murdered in India over the last decade..mmm..probably just an innocent oversight huh..

    Honestly..that was just too easy…is there a better word for superficial..shallow..perhaps sudaricial?

    Assmad, Australia is far from perfect but your pathetic attempts to link everything to one country vs another is a sad response to having no depth of knowledge. I honestly expect better from you but it appears I may have over estimated your ability

  9. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Don’t understand…

    ….are you saying that the “Lebanese Community,”

    … Aren’t Australian ?

    That’s interesting, Big Oigarama.

    How do you know they don’t have Australian citizenship ? Or Australian passports ? How are they “multicultural,” if they have Australian citizenship and live in Australia ?

    Or, as I said, do you think the attacks on Indians are a sign of the lack of racism in Australia ? Why do you think whoever doing the attacks would do them ?

    btw, folks,

    Oigal’s clearly a very smart guy and comparing his opinion against nobodies like the Victorian police commissioner, Simon Overland, or India’s High Commissioner to Australia, Sujata Singh, is ridiculous. But both the latter claim there were racial elements in the attacks.

    http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/10/stories/2009061055431000.htm

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Indians-Abroad/Racist-element-in-Australia-attacks-Indian-envoy/articleshow/4592807.cms

    Go for Gold, Oigal.

  10. Oigal says:

    ….are you saying that the “Lebanese Community,”

    … Aren’t Australian ?

    Ah much better..and the only defence you could make after that sad attempt. However, lets try and be a little honest your inference was on white australia and you slipped..

    However, if you seriously wanted to have discussion about Australian Immigration and the too easy provision of Australian Citizenship (IMHO) happy to it although that woudl mean you concer your early posts were toss.

    Personally…I believe multi-culturalism has taken Australain to the point of no return and we are well on the way to adopting the tribalism and racism so prevelant throughout the world.

    If however you just want to spin into big bad ozzies again, sorry too bored for that

    Dearie me..”racial elements” now..Yawn… I already agreed there was racial elements in fact had the victims been white, you would never heard of the issue.

    There has been gang crime with gangs based along ethnic, national groups for years and to be honest its getting worse.

    Really a degree of honesty Assmad, you were attempting to depict a group a blonde NAZI’s picking on the poor Indians and got caught out yet again…

    The New South Wales Government and Opposition both said there was no evidence to suggest the attack was racially motivated.

    The view is shared by Dr Yadu Singh, a prominent member of Sydney’s Indian community.

    Although I disagree, there is a significant racial element to it, its a battle between two enthic groups (actually more like one pursueing the other but still)

  11. Lairedion says:

    Achmad,

    LOL, Pulitzer material, huh? 🙂

  12. Oigal says:

    Sorry L.. I only have so much to work with here, it hard to formulate a tear bringing piece of prose when I have to constantly go back and correct AM misconceptions 🙂 , lies and half truths. Tis but a cross we bear when one prods a troll.

  13. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Where’s the reference to White groups in the first reference ?

    Hey Big Oigster,

    Just wondering what you think might be causing these attacks on Indians in Australia ? Do you think it’s Australia’s lack of racism ?

    Sounds like you’re getting a bit defensive. Except, if by “ethnic groups” what you really mean is “ethnic groups” other than “anglo celt”…

    Just what do you mean by “Australian”, Oigal ?

  14. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Just so we’re all clear about this. Australia’s recent problems of violence against Indians are due to an overly liberal immigration policy:

    Personally…I believe multi-culturalism has taken Australain to the point of no return and we are well on the way to adopting the tribalism and racism so prevelant throughout the world.

    In other words, Australia’s letting in too many foreigners. Can you be a bit more specific about what sort of foreigners you mean ? Do you think if the migrants had been primarily Scottish, English, or Irish, ie Anglo-Celt, there would have been the same problems ?

    Or is this something that only “multi-culturalism” produces ? I imagine you mean cultures other than the dominant one (s), in Australia ?

    I’m also wondering why migrant cultures might be prone to more tribalism and racism than the existing ones in Australia. Any thoughts ?

  15. Oigal says:

    Yawn.. Don’t be so vague Assmad.. it doesn’t become you. Whats the term..Disingenuous ?
    A shame really, there is a lot of debate the could and should have been had about Australia’s immigration policies and citizenship but that would take a depth of knowledge and level of maturity beyond trolling.

    BUT I DO OWE YOU A VOTE OF THANKS FOR WALKING RIGHT INTO THAT ONE… I thought for a day or so you were too smart and and would dodge it.

    Now if you are beyond the twisting and turning.

    Mmmm In fact the sad level of fact checking and outright untruthes is so unlike our troll Assmad I am begining to suspect a troll..CUK??? Is that you? What have your done with our troll..he smells and has bad manners but he is still our troll?

  16. Cukurungan says:

    Sure Cuk, as soon as you detail the amount the Indonesian Government pulled out (whats the split 93%-7% govt to company, I am not sure) plus royalities, plus taxes..Now once you have that amount.. do let us know how much went back to Sumatera and in particular how much has been accounted for in education in the province. Whilst asking about oil company funds, you might want to pop down to Pertamina and have some fun as well.

    I have no the exact number about the oil split in PSC but for sure it is at least 90% for 230 million the lack nutricious people of Indonesia while 10% for 230 of the obese people in Houston….so it is still very good deal.. more over all operating cost is fully recoverable so it mean expatriate managers still have a chance to charge cost for play golf, karaoke with girl and eat an exotic food on the operating cost
    Pak oigal ..please be little bit fair…let check your own backyard …let we start from beginning of creation our respective countries …if Aussi government could afford cheap labor for building of the basic infrastructure by enslavement and the forced labor of native people…it is the same thing we need to built city, mall and other infrastructure in the Java Island with the money from there…there is no different… when your government killed and forced people to work …. Our government just taking some money from the country side to build…but now we have already regulation how to distribute the wealth more fair to the all.

    Strangely I agree with you that Indonesians should be running and profiting more from their own oil companies but that hasn’t been a great success so far huh..guess we need to build some schools and other basic stuff… like drinking water..starting to see the link yet cuk? or all still a bit misty?

    Thank you for your offering but at the moment we have more than enough school and universities for our self and I let you know that even people from Timor East is still knocking our door to get permission to study in our university. Therefore, we can not accept your offering unless you can show to us that progress of the education and other basic stuff in PNG, TIMTIM and some countries in pacific island which have been well known under supervision of BIG Brother Aussi are much better than in here?

  17. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal….

    Wow.

    Bob and weave.

    Like it. Nice.

    How ’bout answering the question….just what do you mean by “Australian” ethnic identity Oigal. Are you saying the Lebbos are more violent than the law abiding White Australians ? Sounds like you are, pal. The more you bob and weave, the more rope you give yourself…

  18. Oigal says:

    Sorry Sunshine.. “Lebbos” now is it..how very non PC of you.. Laugh…Somebody is bobing and weaving just not me, must have been a great disappointment to you to find out it wasn’t jackbooted blonde Nazis hey… 🙂

    You have already hung yourself. Tried to trot out that old hoary that Aussies are all racists without even a modicum of research on your behalf…Seriously you really need to open your mind just tad from your preconceived sad little leftist ideals and move into the real world.

    Now take your sad little strawman agruement and do try harder…

    Its amusing to watch you accuse Ross od lookign under the bed for Reds as you frantically and blindly checking cupboards for racists only to be exposed as ol mother hubbard.

    Now for CUK (Is this not the same guy?)

    if Aussi government could afford cheap labor for building of the basic infrastructure by enslavement and the forced labor of native people…

    Mmm any number of issues you could bring up about aborginal people in australia but reckon you will be pushing to find any examples where they were enslaved to build malls..come on guys ..make this a challenge at least.

    PNG and Timor Leste (TIM TIM indeed..still haven’t got over it huh are sovereign nations or haven’t you heard. Offering nothing its an Indonesian issue to resolve.

    P.S. Where’s the 90% gone?

  19. Oigal says:

    Sorry guys your level of facts and debate has fallen way beneath the critical time waster trigger..so I am off for a few days..hav fun twins

  20. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal’s explanation of attacks on Indians: It’s the bloody Lebbos picking on the curry munchers.

    Oigal’s solution: let the curry munchers and towel-heads slug it out, then ship ’em all back home.

  21. Oigal says:

    oh my.. getting desperate now aren’t we auntie..eer I think the aurrent bloke under arrest is a lebanese christian, so unless he ducked out from doing the dishing not likely to be wearing a towel?

    But here you are Assmad..

    Vancounver, Jun 10: Six Indians on Tuesday, Jun 9 were racially assaulted by four white Canadians on the outskirts of Vancounver in Canada.

    bloody ozzies on holidays I guess …chuckle…feel better now…take a bex and have good lay down

  22. Oigal says:

    Now Assmad,

    While I am away do think about all your ducking and waeving and this has been a mild diversion from the orginal topic and question. Are you ever going to answer what is your obvious conflict of interest in defending those indefensible elite in Indonesia seem quite content to rob their own people blind…

    Is daddy’s money is tainted? or are you yet another NGO who has sold it soul? I can understand Cuk (well not really but you know what I mean) but you thats interesting so totally compromised are we?

  23. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Haven’t ducked and weaved.

    I will if you will.

    On the elites — my argument is that it just takes time for countries to develop the institutions to control the elites. My question here is: what’s a fair timeline for a country like Indonesia to develop those institutions ?

    I think as the country gets richer and the middle class grows, there’ll be greater demands for justice — we’re seeing that already. It’s not happening fast enough for you — but you’re used to the standards of Australia, which is one of the most progressive countries in the world on social policy. First secret ballot, vote for women etc.

    On the violence: I’m keen in hearing yourexplanation as to why its happening and what’s going on. The lebbo bashing thing was a caricature, but it sounds like on the right track. Sounds like you’re repeating Geoffrey Blainey’s comments from the 1980s.

  24. Cukurungan says:

    Mmm any number of issues you could bring up about aborginal people in australia but reckon you will be pushing to find any examples where they were enslaved to build malls..come on guys ..make this a challenge at least

    Pak oigal yth…let me help you to check again what is my word… I never said enslaved to build malls but to build the basic infrastructure as we can see below :
    http://www.icl-fi.org/english/asp/199/alpaboriginal.html

    Therefore, I believe that your good lecture is more needed by you own elite rather than the elite in this country and your good deeds is more demanded by your own native poeple rather than native people in here

  25. ET says:

    – Local elites are rapacious, greedy, and the main source of the problem.
    – Indonesia could be a prosperous country if it wasn’t for such rapacious local elites.

    Local elites are rapacious and greedy all over the world. But in Indonesia there is a lack of counterbalance because

    ndoroisme is a generally accepted attitude;
    – an ingrained culture of submission, non-confrontationalism (nerimo) and kowtowing to power;
    – local elites being protected by a system controlled by the military have free reign ; the aftermath of G30S, Timtim and Papua have proven what this military is capable of.
    – lack of political awareness of the wong cilik.
    – the BODN (Blame Others Do Nothing) syndrome.

    China and India are breaking the mold. Why can’t Indonesia?

  26. Ross says:

    Ah, Odinius- my apologies!
    I was befuddled, not by Anker but by Patung’s surprise tactic of shifting our discussion into another by-way. Only just found it, having been busy recently.
    I do think that the PKI had a long history of treason.
    Apart from the infamous Madiun back-stab, when they showed themselves a party of Benedict Arnolds, or Lord Haw-Haws, if you like, splitting local forces while the Independence movement was still facing down the Dutch, look at the people we are talking about.
    We have, I think, agreed to exclude the barely literate humble folk in SOBSI etc., as legitimate victims, so that leaves the PKI proper.

    Most of them were quite capable of reading and thus understanding what communists have done everywhere they got the chance, and wanted to inflict the same horrors on Indonesia.
    They had observed, and were complicit with, their politburo, and other high-up reds like that writer chappie, doing what they could to put down groups and individuals critical of PKI encroachment on and misuse of power.

    They embodied the totalitarian hypocrisy of communism, blatantly stirring and exploiting class hate, not for one minute to give workers and peasants more rights (for they knew what had happened in China and North Korea and North Vietnam, as well as in the Soviet Empire and Cuba) but to install themselves as a nomenklatura ruling class.

    Those ones I was complaining about, the old bats and berks who feel hard done by without admitting these truths, really ought to have the grace to thank the God they don’t believe in that they got through with their heads still attached to their bodies.

  27. Purbanegoro says:

    Oigals argument that
    “This whole post should have nothing to with Australia or the west,,it is soley a domestic issue and can only fixed internally.”
    is demonstrably false.

    The USA, Paris Club and the IMF have impoverished Indonesia through imposing or recklessly loaning huge capital knwoing exactly it was embezzled to keep Indonesia from becoming truly Non Aligned

    If external parties are not truly to blame- why then dig Megawati lose the Presidency to Gus Dur- despite winning the ppopular vote.
    What coincidence did this have between Megwati demanding debt payment reschudulng more suyitable to Indonesian short term financial difficulties.
    The same again in 2009 with the SBY electoral fraud- which stole the election from PDI-P- where Megawati and Prabowo had a truly united grass-roots farmer and peasant-mlitary coalition of Nationalists determined to destroy the neo-liberalism of SBY selling off the nations silverware- under the table.

    SBY’s undies were so soaking wet he even stole their “anti-neo-liberalism, pro-rakyat” dogma word for word.

    And now we see again the darling of the West- SBY- embroiled in the Bank Century scam.

    These are external entities.

    The economic reality is Indonesia NEEDS foreign capital to subsidixe domestic growth. Indonesia requires 5.3% growth per annum to merely ABSORB new job-seekers.

    The issue of regional poverty is solely tied to resources, education and control of fertility.
    The poor need to stop breeding like rabbits and take responsibility for their own lives and political choices- rather than accept the convenient Rupiah of the Partai Democrat
    The poor need to stop migrating internally following the ridiculous hearsay of roads paved with gold in the big cities- when they would lead a more productive (to the nation) and better quality of life if they remained in their native villages.

    I attended a PDI-P meeting in East Jakarta in 2009. The Representative speaker was fantastic- an educated, successful business man who had a concrete track record of building pro-rakyat projects- especially water & sanitation for slum areas.
    No other competing party candidate had done anything similar.
    But what did the alleged PDI-P supporters come for?
    Travel money and food money- and what would PPDI-P give them if they voted for them.
    So he said to them- if you vote for Golkar or Democrat- will they help you build the water wells you need? Fix your roads? Improve your electricity? Renovate your schools- as I have done?

    Guess what they chose- Democrat- they got Sembako and a TV for their blue vote.

    As Christ said, “God only helps those who help themselves”.

    I have three new maids. All only finished up to Junior High School class 2- two years of high school education- despite being generously aided by their local Muslim charity. Why did they not finish school?
    “It was boring/too hard and I thought it would be better to make some money as a maid.”
    “Did their parents force them? No but they did say it would be better for us to be maids now than later”

    Our politicians know the Rakyat far better than you give them credence for. They know exactly how they think- how to manipulate their tiny myopic brains- and how the Rakyat need to be dragged on a leash- beaten if necessary- to do the correct thing.

  28. ET says:

    The poor need to stop breeding like rabbits and take responsibility for their own lives and political choices- rather than accept the convenient Rupiah of the Partai Democrat
    The poor need to stop migrating internally following the ridiculous hearsay of roads paved with gold in the big cities- when they would lead a more productive (to the nation) and better quality of life if they remained in their native villages.

    As Christ said, “God only helps those who help themselves”.

    Is this the same Purba Negoro we knew before? He must have undergone a major overhaul because he is finally talking sense.

  29. David says:

    Same sort of feverish full of spelling mistakes style so I think yes.

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