Neighbourly Affairs

Aug 29th, 2008, in Asides, by

Posts split from Dating thread.


119 Comments on “Neighbourly Affairs”

  1. Oigal says:

    Ross,

    Gee.. you must be mellowing? Personally I don’t think the danger is a bunch old age reds or people long since worm feed. The real danger today (as opposed to “I see dead people”) is the form of robber baron democracy we have in Indonesia leaves the country ripe for any number of radical social upheavals.

    Personally I see a far far greater threat is the uncaring “I am ok, screw you” attitude that pervades the tiny elitist group of robber barons that rule Indonesia and a the absolute day dream state the minority middle class exists in.

  2. Odinius says:

    How, exactly, are the “old reds” going to be a problem, given that most of them were either murdered or imprisoned without trial for decades?

  3. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Hi Oigal,

    Personally I see a far far greater threat is the uncaring “I am ok, screw you” attitude that pervades the tiny elitist group of robber barons that rule Indonesia and a the absolute day dream state the minority middle class exists in.

    I’m just not sure how Australia – or most of the rich world – is any different.

    Pondok Indah puts up big walls with CCTV, or Satpam, and keeps out the lumpenproles, except to work.

    Australia has a military, a navy, and in the last decade, razor-wire guarded concentration camps for “queue jumpers,” giving a strong “keep out” message. Australia in particular (but alot of the rich world), is a gated community.

    Sure, people like yourself might huff and puff (this is an insult thread, remember, i have to get at least one insult in), about the “inalienable right,” to national self defense etc. But there’s nothing inevitable about a world system of nation states. We’ve only really had it since 1648, (expanding after 1945).

    Sure, Australia throws a few pennies away in foreign aid (brutally slashed when times get tough).

    I’m not sure how much Sydney’s middle classes, or working or upper classes, care about Asia’s poor than the people you rail against. Do a Google analytics count of articles on Schapelle Corby in the Australian media versus deaths from dengue fever.

    In your case, you’ve voluntarily uprooted yourself from Australia, voluntarily placing yourself amidst all this corruption, obscenity and incompetence. I think alot of foreigners get a little moral thrill sneering at the problems of big poor countries, whilst turning a blind eye, consciously or unconsciously, to real structural problems in the world.

  4. Oigal says:

    Gee We can have fun with this can’t we..

    Australia has a military, a navy, and in the last decade, razor-wire guarded concentration camps for “queue jumpers,” giving a strong “keep out” message. Australia in particular (but alot of the rich world), is a gated community.

    Nice little piece of leftish toss, an element of fact but essentially toss.. In fact Australia accepts more refugees per capitia of population than any other western nation in the world (not even getting into the the agrument once you have passed through one safe nation you are not longer a refugee but a economic tourist).

    The Australian Army and Navy..ooh scary..also about 30% of the size of the New York Police department or 20% of Indonesia’s declared strength.

    giving a strong “keep out” message. Australia in particular (but alot of the rich world), is a gated community.

    Silly really.. when the facts clearly demonstrate that Australia has been encouraging mass migration for decades (of course, personally I think the open migration of the basis that all cultures are equal is nation suicide but that a different discussion)

    but alot of the rich world

    Gotta love this one, Indonesian would be the richest nation in the region bar none… so effectively you are saying that they cannot be expected to manage their own resources even after 60 years?

    Sure, people like yourself might huff and puff (this is an insult thread, remember, i have to get at least one insult in), about the “inalienable right,” to national self defense etc. But there’s nothing inevitable about a world system of nation states. We’ve only really had it since 1648, (expanding after 1945)

    Dunno even know where to start with this one…so its ok for China to come and claim by force whatever bits of Indonesian she wants?? huh?

    Sydney’s middle classes care..not much perhaps (and debatable) not the point really. The ones that should care (for the sake of their own well being if nothing else is the ones with the most to lose when the masses finally trip over the edge. Its not the latte leftist like yourself in Sydney who will suffer but all of our little mall rats. People like myself (and you) unless we are very unlucky will have had the means and opportunity to be long gone.

    Uprooted myself..yup..not for the thrill, sorry to disappoint (although I will grant you there any any number of tiresome do gooders)..but my motivation… “show me the money” but then again even if I had more altrustic reasons would it not matter you cannot become (essentially) a citizen here anyway..loyalty is a two way street.

    The difference between countries is simply a Free and Aggressive Press, people in power are generally thieves, liars and egomanics. It’s just in a country without a history of aggressive press there is no exposure of the maggot bags.

    The real structural problems of the world????… Gotta love the idealist, yes we all live and work in grean harmony with little birds singing blue skys and sunshine….now drop back to reality and the next 20 years in Indonesia and what do you see?

  5. Oigal says:

    On by the way as an ardent capitalist (I could even be neo liberal, I just haven’t figured out what that is yet), the biggest flaw in your universe is this joyous re-distribution of wealth which as history and any number of studies has proven brings nothing but added misery as the wealth moves back to the minority 3% of the population only with more blood attached.

    The trick is not to redistribute the wealth but provide the means everyone with the means to achieve a higher standard of living. That means building schools (not ripping off the children’s text books) building a infrastructure so kids can have drink of water without dying of disease not seeking additional 10% on every contract for “operational purposes”.

    It means providing decent health care not locking up the mother of a new born because she dared to complain and demand her own health records. I fail to see how any of the above has any relation to what western nations do or don’t do.

  6. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Thanks for the response, but you’ve dodged the issue.

    Australia is a gated community.

    You’re over here by choice blogging and griping about local problems whilst ignoring discussing real causes.

    In fact Australia accepts more refugees per capita of population than any other western nation in the world (not even getting into the the agrument once you have passed through one safe nation you are not longer a refugee but a economic tourist).

    What’s your source on the above, by the way.

    All hinges on what’s a refugee, right ? It’s not a “lefty toss” debate. Those displaced by the East Java mudflow aren’t refugees because they still have a state. What does it matter to them ?

    If your economy has been destroyed by warfare and you’re destitute, but your not targeted as part of a political or ethnic group, like, say Ahmadis in Indonesia, you’re not a refugee, but an “economic migrant.”

    btw, what’s your source on Australia accepts more refugees per capita ? I think refugees per GDP point is a better measure of burden. Tricksy, Dicksy, Oigsy.

    The difference between you, Oigsy, and an Afghan doctor who gets locked up in Australia is that Indonesia is in effect much more open.

    Australia’s been encouraging mass migration mostly for economic reasons. In the 1950s, the government preferred to let in nazi and Serbian war criminals than Asians because of the white australia policy. Nowadays, it prefers rich or the highly skilled. Why ? Only 20 million people.

    Anyway, please cite your source on highest refugee per capita. That’d be interesting. Thanks.

  7. Ross says:

    ======================
    Yes, Oigal, we are largely in agreement on the way things are here, as regards the plight of the poor, but as a keen reader of history, I think it wise to keep the past in accurate perspective as well as pay attention to the present and wonder about the future.
    As to mellowing, perhaps it ain’t what I say but the way that I say it. After the insult duel, I’m fresh out of spleen to vent! Hence a different style is required to give myself a break!
    On the subject of different styles, the parliamentary solidarity with Prita is an encouraging sign,showing that if put on the spot by popular outrage, even dorkish politicians can be made to at least say the right things – whether they follow throughi is of course another matter.
    A pity that the murder of Fifi, young kupu2 malam, drowned, terrorised from emerging from the river because she was being stoned by the scummy ‘public order’ goons, hasn’t elicited the same waves of protest. Those thugs oughta be put up against a wall and shot (there, is that more like the old Ross?)

    Odinius, probably a lot of those who got done in in 1965 were hapless peasants and workers, whom the PKI wouldn’t care about, being a communist party and thus disposed to see ordinary folks as stepping-stones to dictatorship oif the proletariat. The old reds I referred to are those nasty old brutes who feature in the media without a trace of remorse, expecting sympathy because their treason got them into preoblems.
    PS Just been reading Achmad’s latest hobby-horse rants after celebrating UKIP’s success in UK. Why do all pinkos think Australia’s geographical size obliges it to be a receptacle for the surplus population of half the Third World? Should they build housing projects on the ‘sacrosanct’ lands of the Aborigines out in the desert? Only the coastal areas are habitable, and they should be kept nice and civilised.==============

  8. Oigal says:

    Tsk Tsk…ah the ASSMAD of old returns, full of flem, bile and misinformation..
    Source..DIAC and Amnesty International (although you got me since 2003, Australia has dropped into second place).

    “If your economy has been destroyed by warfare and you’re destitute, but your not targeted as part of a political or ethnic group”…the government preferred to let in nazi and Serbian war criminals than Asians because of the white australia policy.

    The greatest influx of asylum seekers was between 1999 and 2001, with a sharp increase in boat arrivals and asylum applications following the outbreak of war in Afghanistan and then Iraq. In 1999, 97 per cent of applicants from Iraq and 93 per cent of those from Afghanistan arriving without valid visas were recognised as refugees. source Amnesty International..

    Hmmm 97% and 93% success rate.. yup certainly sounds like a mind set of bias and racism

    like, say Ahmadis in Indonesia, you’re not a refugee, but an “economic migrant.”

    So the world should ignore the Indonesian abject racism and tribalism that creates situations like the Ahmadi’s and yet its somehow in the ASSMAD world their responsibility and not Indonesias..cute concept

    “Australia’s growing diversity is most evident in Sydney, Australia’s largest city, which has a population of over 3.4 million. Its economic position ensures that it is the major Australian destination for long-term migrants, 7.2 percent of whom arrived after 1996. It is also the nation’s most diverse city. One third of its population (33.5 percent) are foreign-born, with 10.4 percent from Asia and another 3.1 percent from North Africa and the Middle East. ”

    33% foreign born, 15% of those from Asia and Middle East..geee your stereo-typing and little mistruths all come a crashing down, I am having trouble seeing your alleged bias here (see should never ask a question or demand a source unless you know that the answer will be..first rule of debate).

    Why only 20 Million (its closer to 26 BTW) ..eer look at the map..its a desert..the second driest continent on earth.

    Here’s a tip, if you want a good insult come debate..perhaps you could ask me what I think of the above..but seriously you should steer away from challenging facts and reality with such shakey knowledge..it makes you look like a poor mans cuk.

  9. Oigal says:

    Those thugs oughta be put up against a wall and shot (there, is that more like the old Ross?)

    Dunno about that but if there is a beer and bbq in it after the shootings, count me in..Although it would be more fun to bitch slap the little cowards from one end of jakarta to the other.

    As for Assmad, factually bare arse I think is the term in this case , which to be fair is most unlike him….repugant yes but normally his alternative views do have some basis in fact..perhaps you took more out of him than you thought Ross..tis but a cuk clone at this stage..

  10. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Hi Oigal,

    Actually, probably the wrong place to take this up. I’m coming to think that insults and important debate only mix in the rhetoric of politicians running for office. I’d be happy to take this conversation to another forum.

    It’s interesting if indeed Australia did accept 97 percent of people arriving between 1999 and 2001 as refugees, when in fact many of them were probably economic migrants. If so, the fact bespeaks of distortion in the Australian media, hardly a surprise.

    But I still put it to you that alot more people would like to move to the rich world (OECD countries – including Australia), from the poor world (developing countries, or LDCs). Thus the rich world have to find a way of keeping the hordes out.

    That’s what a gated community does. Australia is such a community. I haven’t had the time to the research to verify your claims, but I seriously doubt Australia is as liberal as you’re implying. Australia’s always imported capital and labour.

    But the fact is Australia needs to keep more people out than it can let in.

    Sydney might have more races and ethnicities in it, but in terms of caring about the problems of global poverty — they don’t care any more – or less than the elite of Jakarta you rail against.

    And you – by your own admission – are an economic migrant. Indonesia has let you in. It’d be much harder to get a green card.

    But compare pictels you’ve spilt on criticizing Indonesian “bastards” (local poobahs and bullys), and those in Australia or the U.S. As for caring about revolutions or boiling points, that’s a security and survival decision, not really one of compassion.

    Bottom line: your world view is blind in one eye.

  11. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Seksi Mr. Patoengs,

    Some very interesting and important material in the above thread, methinks, that needs to be moved to a better forum.

    Suggestions ? Don’t want to turn this into another insult-Oigal thread.

  12. Lairedion says:

    Achmad,

    Sorry to jump in on behalf of Patung but isn’t this latest burst of comments merely a continuation of “Neighbourly Affairs“?

  13. Oigal says:

    But compare pictels you’ve spilt on criticizing Indonesian “bastards” (local poobahs and bullys), and those in Australia or the U.S. As for caring about revolutions or boiling points, that’s a security and survival decision, not really one of compassion.

    I fail to see your point, disregarding the humanist side (in fact I would dispute, that the west does not care, it could be said they care too much and by supplying aid and sustance they tend to prop up regimes that shoudld have fallen eons ago).

    More to the point…WHY should they care? Particularly in the case of Indonesia, a far wealthier country than Australia will ever be yet the elite and middle class indifference is more than happy to maintian the staus quo.. WHOSE job is it to change that..certainly not mine nor Australia or even the Dutch?

    Wow..

    It’s interesting if indeed Australia did accept 97 percent of people arriving between 1999 and 2001 as refugees

    Of all the rebuttals of refugees from Afgahnistan and Iraq you are going for they were not real refugees but economic migrants (are you channeling Ross??) BTW.. To help you out, personally I think a better % would be be about 5% but facts is facts. I don’t see any positives for Australia in being so liberal but then (a fact the fanatics never grasp) the average bloke like myslef has no impact on Western government policies.

    I suppose yes I could be called a economic refugee in a sense but the difference is I was awarded the opportunity to gain a basic education and provided with the basic infrastructure to realise at least some of my potential (limited tho it may be). So should Indonesia decide that “hey its time to go” no problems I have the skills to survive and earn a living elsewhere. As a counter point I would be willing to bet however that I contribute to more to the community in which I live than the vast majority of domestic economic refugees and carpet baggers. (I still bet you its easier to get a green card than Indonesian citizenship 🙂 )

    But I still put it to you that alot more people would like to move to the rich world (OECD countries – including Australia), from the poor world (developing countries, or LDCs). Thus the rich world have to find a way of keeping the hordes out.

    Eeer yea…unless you can contribute to the community and civilisation then logic would dictate there is no point letting the whole system collapse..would you let the whole familiy move in with you until you could not even feed your immediate family..

    I am not saying Australia is liberal (although personally far too liberal in my view) you just made a whole swag of claims that were factually incorrect..Now it is anyone’s right to draw whatever opinions they like from a set of facts but just to tell fibs to support a claim is just silly in this day n age.

    In summary, your points are factually incorrect or moot, it doesnt matter what other countries do or don’t do, only Indonesians can rectify the abject poverty and misery that abounds in the regions richest country and the only point is how much time is there left to do it.

  14. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    My points are neither factually incorrect or mute.

    I think you really have no understanding of aid, though that could derail the conversation.

    My original points were:

    * Most rich countries raise very powerful barriers to keep out people who want to come in.

    * You spend most of your pictels railing against local Indonesian elites, when the real problems are structural and impersonal.

    None of my claims where “factually incorrect.” I’m suspicious about your motives in claiming I am “lefty” or making shit up. I suspect its the standard opinion of the average aussie guy at the average pub spouting off.

  15. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Thanks Seksi Mr. Lairedion,

    Seksi Pak Patoengs,

    Could you move the thread ? Hope you’re having a good time Down Under.

    Is that cool Pak Oigal ?

    x o.

  16. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    p.s. – that’s Seksi Pak Oigal. : P

  17. Oigal says:

    * Most rich countries raise very powerful barriers to keep out people who want to come in.

    Actually so do all countries (not just rich)..so what? What does that have to do with uncaring local elite and the domestic situation..

    You spend most of your pictels railing against local Indonesian elites, when the real problems are structural and impersonal

    Weasel words..are you saying what is actually needed is “transformational and structual change combined with a dynamic matrix of comprehensive solutions that include the aspirations of all stakeholders…….”

    How about….220 million people expect to see some basic infrastructure, education, clean water before we start worrying about what other countries do.

    Factually incorrect of course you were, you wanted to turn a comment about the need for the 1% of the golden children in Indonesia may want to start showing some understanding of the needs of the other 99% of the population into your usual anti western (Australia?) bash but come unstuck when present with the facts (kinda tougher with me than schermers huh?..

    Of course Australia has a degree of racism but Australian Racism is a bit like Indonesian Soccer..we have a go at it but we just not as good at it as other countries.

    I have no understanding of AID???..you really are getting dull…That like saying someone as no understanding of fish..which types, found where, from where..to do what?

    Certainly I have seen enough abuse of it, enough do gooders that do more harm than good..blow ins and blow outs.. aid workers who bring their own little utopian anti west mind sets with them…

  18. Oigal says:

    by the way..mute..would be preferable but I did write MOOT

  19. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Hi Oigal,

    I hope this thread gets moved soon, because these are important things.

    * In your comments I hear a similar tone that I do from many allegedly socially conscious foreigners who stay here for long enough to have a clue:

    – Local elites are rapacious, greedy, and the main source of the problem.
    – Indonesia could be a prosperous country if it wasn’t for such rapacious local elites.

    Sub-text: I, conscientious and compassionate foreigner, can see the path out, whilst corrupt local bastards cannot, because they’re corrupt, probably because they’re Muslim, or brown, or not educated abroad, or whatever.

    Let’s talk numbers: just what is Indonesia’s GDP ?

    Bloomberg says $433 billion
    The CIA says $432 billion

    That’s all I could get in a 5-minute Google search.

    Divide $432 billion (conservative) over 230 million (conservative) population esimate

    = $1,883 million /per capita

    A very crude estimate. Dividing GDP over population is very gross, as it ignores all sorts of things, not least of which is liberal economics which allows for equal oppotunity, but unequal outcomes.

    Who’d argue Indonesia has equal access ?

    Not sure what Indonesia’s GINI coefficient is – an economic indicator of income inequality.

    Australia’s income per capita:

    = $ 37,299 (Wikipedia).

    Where do you get off saying Indonesia should be the wealthiest country in the region, you Moron Oigal ?

  20. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Fair enough, Oigsy….

    Oops !

  21. timdog says:

    Seeing as how this thread has deviated a little, I thought it might be worth dropping y’all another line from another corner of the Himalayas (a little spot called Reckong Peo on the old Hindustan-Tibet road, if you care to drop it in google earth)…

    Anyway, what I wanted to tell you is that the Indian press is in a state of heightened agitation at the moment (I LOVE the Indian press – did you know, Srinagar alone has 15 English dailies, as well as 42 publishing in Urdu. And they’re more lary than British papers too What a country!) about RACIST AUSTRALIA after a string of attacks on Indian students, mostly in Melbourne, a couple of them fatal. I, and India’s newspaper-reading public, learnt a new phrase – “curry bashing”, apparently a sport popular with certain young men of the rougher Australian suburbs…
    oh, and Oigal, just to make it clear that this is not me indulging in rampant anti-Australianism. One of the things that I find so intriguing about the current Indian hysteria about RACIST AUSTRALIA is the pot-kettle-black aspect – this is, after all, a country that makes a habit of massacring members of its own indiginous minority communities in the thousands, but I just thought the topic might add a little spice to the mix (curry spice, perhaps?)…

    Achmad, seksiness asside:

    The difference between you, Oigsy, and an Afghan doctor who gets locked up in Australia is that Indonesia is in effect much more open.

    Now that is, on at least one level, palpably untrue. Afghan doctor in question – if he doesn’t get arrested – may get to attain Australian citizenship after due process (though he may later have his car burnt, or indeed a screwdriver thrust into his head, by some curry-bashers, but that ain’t the point). Although Mr Oigal certainly lives a life far better than the average immigrant in Australia (or the UK), even if he wanted one he’d have a much tougher time getting an Indonesian passport – am I wrong?

    Now, I’m off into the wild again for a while, so replies will have to wait. In the meantime, how about some insults ya b*stards…..

    PS, I was thinking of saying something about the statements of both Ross and Oigal about the evils of the the moneyed bourgeoisie of Indonesia, robber barrons and all that… Clenched left fists raised into the steamy tropical air, hammers and sickles painted across their pasty bule faces, red flags flying – viva la revolucion, boys, viva la revolucion…

  22. Odinius says:

    Hmm…on “Oigal vs. Achmad,” don’t you fellas think it’s a little silly to be in a “this place is better than that place” kind of argument? Everywhere is sh*t in a different way.

    Ross said:

    Odinius, probably a lot of those who got done in in 1965 were hapless peasants and workers, whom the PKI wouldn’t care about, being a communist party and thus disposed to see ordinary folks as stepping-stones to dictatorship oif the proletariat. The old reds I referred to are those nasty old brutes who feature in the media without a trace of remorse, expecting sympathy because their treason got them into preoblems.

    Okay so we agree on the rank n’ file, but I’m still curious what treason you are talking about. It’s now well-established that only a very small clique of PKI cadres knew of or participated in G30S. Aidit, Sjam, etc. But they were all killed. The rest were only guilty of joining a legal political party. But many were arrested, some given show trials, but mostly just killed or imprisoned without due process. AS I see it, then, it wasn’t their “treason” that got them into trouble, but the blatant disregard for the country’s own laws by its military.

  23. Lairedion says:

    A very sensible comment indeed, Odinius.

    My suggestion towards Achmad was one out of boredom. I do hope Patung will transfer these comments to the Neighbourly Affairs thread so they can disappear in obscurity.

  24. Odinius says:

    Am I still having my debate with Ross over the PKI here?

  25. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    What have you got to be snooty about, Lairdie ? Your comments and posts are hardly page-turning Pulitzer material…

    Personally, I think it’s an interesting question as to how much moral responsibility the richest countries in the world have and whether or not places like Australia should be interested in problems of poverty.

    Of course, it’s ok if you think issues like globalization and poverty are boring…or maybe only interesting if you’re talking…

  26. Oigal says:

    Hi Odinius,

    Sorry if it appears that way (this place better than that place) my point was Indonesia is a very rich country and the people are not getting the most benefit from that wealth thanks to an uncaring elite. Unfortunately Assmad came in completely off topic with the usual psuedo Indonesian persona ..ooh its all the Wests fault (which is ok but his generalisations were so laughable that I just got sidetracked)

    Where do you get off saying Indonesia should be the wealthiest country in the region, you Moron Oigal ?

    Moron is it??? because people don’t agree with your half arse superficial assertions? or are you embarrassed that your sad little generalisations fell flat in the face of facts..”Oooh Australia keeps out foreigners and Asians” (kinda looks ignorant, when the largest city in Australia is over 30% migrant and of that 14% is Asian and Middle Eastern origin).. yea there is a shallow little Moron commenting alright 🙂

    Tsk Tsk..Assmad..touching a AID and Elite fed nerve here are we??.. Your reaction suggests you have a particular interest in maintaining the status quo..hmmm .. time to come clean perhaps (well if you want to be taken seriously that is).. NGO, ELITE or Daddies dirty money?

    Where do you get off saying Indonesia should be the wealthiest country in the region,

    Ass, I understand that at this stage you are desperate to provide some illusion of credability here hence we are awash with numbers. However (pay attention now) the key word here is “should”be. We all know you are a fake Indonesian so really the concept of ” should (chuckle) vs is ” should not be beyond you. Stating relative incomes “now” highlights the “is” and “now” not the “should” and could (with me so far twiwty).

    How do I dare say that Indonesia should be the richest nation in the region:

    Lets see:

    17-34% (depending on which report) more proven mineral resources than its near neighbours

    Oil and Gas reserves not even measured as yet

    Human resources that boggle the mind

    More arable land than could be tapped and sustainable managed in 100 years

    Really lets stop this nonsense that Indonesia is not a Rich Country, that fact that the riches are not yet realised or the wealth does not reach the majority of the people is an Indonesian issue no one elses unless you are saying the Indonesians are incapable of doing so? My view is the majority are prevented from doing so by people like yourself and other elitist toadies.

    I, conscientious and compassionate foreigner, can see the path out, whilst corrupt local bastards cannot, because they’re corrupt, probably because they’re Muslim, or brown, or not educated abroad, or whatever.

    Yawn.. because you are unable to conduct any conversation beyond your own superficial level and baises (which is why you change the subject so often, your level of knowledge just doesn’t project beyond a latte and natter level) spare us the evil racist demon, its boring and just does not hold up.

    I am interested to now why you are so interested in defending the elite robber barons in this country tho, whats the connection…??? Could daddies money be tied up in that dirty little pool sunshine?..Hmmmm It would seem they are indefensible and you would agree by the very fact the best you can do is trot out the old hoary “the nasty men from overseas are picking on me..”

    Personally, I think it’s an interesting question as to how much moral responsibility the richest countries in the world have and whether or not places like Australia should be interested in problems of poverty.

    Now if you want to talk about this without your silly little racist outlook on the world and with resorting to b*llshit facts (?).

    My view, not a cracker, at a goverment level complete and utter waste of money that would be off spent in country. Does the West get one ounce of thanks for the billions in Aid ..nope…Has it helped on any sort of marco level..nope…has it prolonged the life of depsots and thieves and built mansions in Jakarta and elsewhere..yup.

    In fact, I live for the day when the USA, Aust, UK, etc pull out of the racist and inept UN.

    If NGO’s want to collect money and play around at God, fill ya boots but not with taxpayers money.

  27. Oigal says:

    – Local elites are rapacious, greedy, and the main source of the problem.
    – Indonesia could be a prosperous country if it wasn’t for such rapacious local elites.

    Does a bear sh*t in the woods.. Can anyone seriously argue the con on the above unless they had greasy hands?

  28. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    OK – I take back the moron comment. But I’m still saying:

    * I don’t think populations of the rich world care any more than the poor about global poverty than the elites in developing countries.

    * That’s a very sweeping statement, so let’s focus on Australia and Indonesia.

    As a simple test, compare coverage of Schapelle Corby, with say, malnutrition in Eastern Indonesia, which occurred during the same week. In fact, try a google search of things like “dengue fever,” “malaria,” or poverty, compared to AFL or Rugby, or even Chardonnay in the Australian media.

    Thus, Aussies don’t care that much about poverty in Indonesia – or in Asia – or in places out of Australia. It’s not a value judgement, just an observation.

    * Australia keeps out the hordes with a sophisticated system, immigration checks, a defense force protecting its borders. It puts up “gates” and “walls” to keep out unwanted population flows.

    – How is that different to the elites here ?

    * Some say the elites should care about poverty in their own country more, or that they’re causing the problem by “stealing” the money.

    But I do suggest you look up some basic economic concepts like: GDP, income per capita, economic growth.

  29. Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    I think we have a different view of how the wealth of nations is generated.

    You seem to think Indonesia’s riches are already “there” and that they are “taken away,” by a cabal of beady-eyed pejabats with their big-haired wives from the Dharma Wanita.

    I see the corrupt elite mainly as a symptom, and a byproduct not a cause of Indonesia’s lack of economic development. It also depends what school of economics a ukulele player – or Blok M denizen – subscribes to, marxist, neoliberal, keynesian, whatever.

    I see the problem here as the pie being too small. Make the pie bigger. A rising tide raises all ships. You get the idea. Indonesia is poor because it has too many people in relation to its economic output.

    Countries can have corrupt elites for a long time and still get richer. I see the cabal and the ibus as a brake, rather than breaking the process.

    Problem is to start dismantling that elite, a country needs courts, institutions to ensure accountability, an educated populace, etc etc. For such things it needs resources, so it’s a circular problem.

    Try reading Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and see what he says about cabals in 18th century England.

  30. Oigal says:

    * I don’t think populations of the rich world care any more than the poor about global poverty than the elites in developing countries.

    AM, I am sure I have already agreed with you on this..again the point is..SO WHAT? Australia (to keep it local) has safety nets (of varing degrees) for her lower income, disadvantaged people..Indonesia has….???? Yet in in terms of relative potential wealth is a far richer country than Australia. How is this disparity any other countries problem but Indonesias??

    * Australia keeps out the hordes with a sophisticated system, immigration checks, a defense force protecting its borders. It puts up “gates” and “walls” to keep out unwanted population flows

    The same as very other country in the world, in fact Australia’s immigration and refugee policies are very liberal compared to the majority of the West and far more liberal than any Asian country (shall we talk Japan, Singapore or even Indonesia) so lets drop the racist west it just doesnt stack with the facts.

    Secondary point, why should they..certainly Australia is suffering from being to liberal with border control.

    How is that different to the elites here

    When was the last time an accident victim in Australia was refused treatment until someone paid his deposit in the hospital? What would be the fate of pollie in Australia if his company flooded tens of thousands of homes with toxic mud? What child in Australia is refused food on the basis of no money?

    Levels of support are curious but only a fool would try and compare the life of a poor person in Australian to Indonesia in that regard at there is distinct difference in the attitudes of the ahve and have nots.

    But I do suggest you look up some basic economic concepts like: GDP, income per capita, economic growth.

    Again you are trying to compare what is and what could be..Again I wonder why you are defending the indefensible. This whole post should have nothing to with Australia or the west,,it is soley a domestic issue and can only fixed internally.

    Oh do I think thinks will change… not in any time frame I can see

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