Independence Day
Aug 18th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest WriterPurba Negoro celebrates Indonesia’s national independence day.
Our nation’s birthday, 17th August, has just passed – a brief respite in our work-a-day lives. The Day of Proclamation, however, is not solely time for grandeur, pomp and ceremony, celebration and light-hearted games.
Chairil Anwar of the Angkatan Empatpuluh Lima:
“Better destruction than slavery
Better extermination than oppression.
The hour of death can be an hour of new birth:
To be alive, you have to taste living.”
from Anwar’s “Dipo Negoro”.
It is also a time for Reevaluation – the Responsibility of the Revolutionary. I am alluding to Ananta Toer‘s speech where he stated the “Revolution is not complete”. The Requisite need for all the “Re”‘ suffixes that come as the Responsibility of Revolutionaries.
Warning: extreme cheesiness follows:
We can’t spell Revolution, without U or Rev-u. Yes, I see Tivo too and also ‘involuter’ (do I win?)- but let’s not distract.
We should pause to “Re-vu ™” as we commemorate our Heroes that gave their life, sometimes in reckless suicidal bravery, that we may be free of the Colonial yoke and celebrate their sacred gift of Freedom.
“Review, Retrospection and Reciprocation”
Indonesia has come far since casting off its’ Dutch shackles, and although much has been accomplished and is being done: true – much remains to do.
But let us not allow ourselves to be dismissive of the many positives that outweigh the negatives. One of many examples – the Dutch left only one or two universities in all the 300 years of occupation – one of many examples of total contempt for we natives (other include their masterpieces of Colonialism: de Beers, the Boer nations and Apartheid).
Compare the British schools of India built with an ethos of the potential for betterment within any individual, if given opportunity. Indonesia, in recognition of the vast potential of the Rakyat, has hundreds – and many are centres of excellence.
My auntie told me of her common childhood poverty under Dutch rule – the parents often went hungry at dinner, and divided one chicken egg among ten children to eat. Meals were two per day if lucky. Work intermittent. All banks, shops and middle-scale employers either Dutch or Chinese. Nil native.
Thankfully such poverty and economic racism is incomprehensible to our own children today, is a distant memory – sadly it remains a tragic reality for 30 million or more of our Rakyat.
So let us be true to the original spirit of Revolution and ask how we may serve or sacrifice for the Greater Good.
Questions for Reflection
How can we: Revitalize and Reinvigorate the optimism, the creative energy, the essential pan-class Pribumi Solidarity and the authentic passionate spirit of the Revolution in current and future generations?
How do we right the many lingering injustices of Colonialism particularly redistribution of disproportionate ill-gained wealth, property and privilege from hostile insular minorities to the needy majority Rakyat?
How to reapply ourselves to Pancasila and Gotong Royong?
Have we paid off our own guilty conscience to the Poor through hand-out rather than hand-up?
Have we betrayed our inner dignity and magnificent culture to the vulgar trappings of the petty urban bourgeoisie- the temporary and the facile: vanity, materialism, consumerism, coveting of mere trinkets and baubles?
Have we served ourselves, the Rakyat and our Nation for the benefit of the Rakyat?
I hope all readers please share their thoughts or suggestions or else of their reflections for Rakyat and Revolution.
Hidup Rakyat! Hidup Wong Cilik! Hidup Merdekanya!
Merdeka! Merdeka! Merdeka!
60 Comments on “Independence Day”
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Purba Negoro says:
Toma;
Sorry- do not read Tempo or Jakarta Post- it is rubbish written for the bule.Read Suara Merdeka instead. It is recommended by academics.
Darling of Singapore revisionism- Leo Suryadinata is very clever at inventing “facts” only given by dead sources or unavailable and destroyed materials. Hardly believable.
All I have found is:
Major John Lie was involved in SMUGGLING from Singapore to generate funds for the republic (Lie 1992)- so he claims.from his own book: John Lie: “Memoar Pejuang Republik Indonesia Seputar “Zaman Singapura” 1945-1950, ed. Kustiniyati Mochtar. Jakarta: Gramedia Pustaka Utama.
Gramedia is a Chinese Catholic owned publisher.
Vested interest? I leave you to decide.But, I remain correct.
Did I tell you our joke to defeat Singapore’s.. ahem army is to fire some airburst shells to shatter their spectacles as 80% ar myopic?
The Singapore defense is to throw nude Inul photos about thus distracting the invader Indos.
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Andy says:
AAB you poor boy. You really are disillusioned. I live in Melbourne myself and lived in Jakarta from 2004 – April this year. Jakarta is a poor mess my friend. Yes you can look and marvel at Plaza Indonesia and say it is a good piece of work but go a block away and the average Joe, Adit or Ahmad will be living in a shanty worse than any dog in Australia. And you talk about service. Melbourne service is far far superior than any I witnessed in Jakarta. I didn’t mention all my experiences because it would take too many pages but I should have added the 2 hours I spent collecting a parcel from the major post office near Istiqual mosque (plus tips and bribes to ensure I got it in one piece) and the hour I spent picking up prescription medicine. It would take 5 minutes to do either of them in Australia. I feel if you entertained a bule tourist you would give them the completely sanitised tour of the city. Avoiding Senen market and any of the bus stations and certainly wouldn’t advise they use any forms of public transport. Including the TransJakarta busway which has flopped badly since they tried to extend it beyond the original Kota – Blok M line. One question, if Melbourne in any way is more regressive than Indonesia why oh why would you want your kids to study there?
If you want to believe the fairytales that your people dish up and not bother with facts that’s ok. You don’t have to believe me either. Just google or look up Wikpedia and check the respective living standards of various countries. You might want to see how far your beloved country is down the list and even compare it to where it was before. It is going down further. ALL western countries make up most of the top spots. Exceptions are Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. The GNP of Indonesia is roughly the same as Australia with more than ten times the population. That means mmmmm 1 Australian can produce 10 times what 1 Indonesian can. Being multi-skilled and taught from a young age to think for ones self goes a long way to explaining that. Indonesia’s population is closer to the USA which is roughly a quarter of the world’s GNP. Again don’t take my word for it, look it up and see.
I am curious as to what a pribumi is. I asked a Javanese friend once if my Chinese Indonesian wife was one and she said absolutely not, her blood is chinese. I then asked if a West Papuan was and she said for sure, they are part of the archipelago. Well that’s funny in itself as the chinese have been in the country for centuries and choose to be part of it but the Papuans do not. Ask any of them. They detest the javanisation of their land. For my money the pribumi we talk of is javanese. For example, when can we expect to see an Ambonese Christian President?
One thing I will agree with you on though is the paltry salaries paid to pribumi. However it is usually pribumi paying those salaries. I would like to take those bosses aside and explain that the petrol they put into their prestige cars would cost more than the monthly salaries of their office boys / girls etc. I would also tell them that if they wish to take their employees to lunch that should include ALL. Even the cleaning lady, not only those who sit at a desk wearing a tie.
You also mentioned that your government can’t pay welfare to the people like western countries can. Interesting. I can’t remember any Australian Prime Minister ever having the wealth of the Suharto family ever. From Federation until now…
Could it be a bitter pill to swallow that the true oppressors of your people aren’t bules, chinese etc but Indonesians themselves. Sad but true.
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Apologies to all especially AAB. That first line on my last post should read Purba.
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Sylvester says:
Agree with Andy,
The customer service in Indonesia probably one of the worst in the region. Just read any newspaper and you can see many customer complaints. The government service is even worse. You’ll be lucky if you can get what you want within a day with just paying small amount of money. And these government officials always look at Chinese with a rupiah sign in their eyes.Many pribumis never regard Chinese-Indonesian as Indonesian simply because they envy to what Chinese have and able to do. Fortunately, the number of these kind of pribumis is decreasing, thanks to media such as Jawa Pos and Kompas.
Also, many pribumis say that Chinese do not want to make friend with them. But the fact is, mostly pribumi never ask or invite Chinese to be their friend. Pribumis tend to be with pribumi, you can see this also in Australia.
Most of the problem in Indonesia is caused by pribumi, mostly Javanese. How many trillion rupiah has been stolen by pribumi since Suharto’s era until today? Only God knows. Also, how many pribumis treated their people badly during Dutch era? How many thousands of these minions? I think it is too shameful to admit.
The Chinese are always become scapegoat for any pribumis problems. One thing that you hardly see in other country where Chinese also a minority. I know there are many bad Chinese as well. However, since the pribumis, particularly Javanese, sit on the government, they should be the one who take the responsibility.
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DXP says:
@Andi : Could it be a bitter pill to swallow that the true oppressors of your people aren’t bules, chinese etc but Indonesians themselves. Sad but true.
it means Indonesia never independence until today ? DXP just checked from Google Map, the Porong mud flow coverage size is larger and larger … at least we must help Porong society to be independent from the javanese colonialism
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DXP-
you’re an idiot or a very witty comedian.
Porong IS Java. Look on a map. Even your Chinese ones should be roughly correct.
Either a superb illustration of your intelligence though or an razor sharp wit. I’ll assume the latter- very good. Chinese are witty after all.Sylvester- the same can be asked how many Chinese ask to be pribumi friend?
Why does every city have a Chinatown?
Not an Irishtown, or a Greektown, a Scots town, a Sloneia town? or a Java town?
But always, always a Chinatown?The evidence may be interpreted as Chinese being highly arrogant and contemptuous of gracious hosts and by their Communal rejection of any interaction or assimilation- unwilling to do in Rome as the Romans do- spit in their hosts’ face.
But that would be cynical- I just think they are scared and introverts.
Andy
– you’re very lucky to be white in Ocker land.
It is a very different story for an Indonesian, with an accent the sole-language omnipresent Ostrayan bigot cannot comprehend at first grasp- despite having a vocabulary and breeding well exceeding theirs’.Busway is bad. Everyone knows- but it is a start. Not THE solution- or even a good solution- but A solution. Good enough for now.
When we have monetary capacity of Australia- maybe then we can build something more luxurious to suit your discerning tastes.
Bajai was stupid. Everyone knows Indian technology is an oxymoron. No excuses- they are offensive in every possible way.Metromini and the green Kooperasi are a constant embarassment and eyesore. But to explain the situation and mitigating issues is far too lengthy.
A huge subway system eclipsing that of Singapore and Malaysia was shelved because of ours and Japans enormous post problems we still are suffering. Japan was to be the constructor.
We were ridiculed for Monorail- but somehow the Malaysian one is fine?
The pragmatist can see it is actually a reasonable cost-effective medium-term solution. Not THE solution but A solution.You seem to be most unfortunate. I have not ever had any trouble getting medicine in less than 15 minutes.
Yet in Blackburn, Melbourne, I routinely waited 1 hour plus while a label is printed out and attached to an ubiquitous off the shelf product- like Ventolin for my daughter. I ahve no idea why Australian prescription take so long- we pay everything in full- Medicare is for scamming immigrants- not those who should bear their own burden.
Very odd.I will not detail the names I have been called- as morons and bigots exist in every nation.
Australians are generally friendly- though as one travels out of cities or even anywhere south of Mebourne, the provincials including the inbreds of Sydney, are not. At all. But kampungan and stupid is found the world over, correct?
Australians also not very happy with seeing wealthier brown-skinned man- but this I blame on economic envy- not racism- a global stupidity- as unfortunately stupid people rapidly outbreed the smart.
Australia is a liberal democracy having enjoyed 200+ years of total freedom, total respect for sovereignty, prtoectoin by the British and no imposed debts.
Indonesia is almost the total opposite- merely 63 years without the yoke of Aparthied-like Colonialism
It may be where you live too. Some Chinese have a nasty and insensitive habit of building large Rococo wedding cake Colonial revival McMansions in the midst of a slum.
Or- as currently- ghettoizing themselves- entirely voluntarily ten years post facto- into fortress-like “Superblock” apartments- apartments available from only $20,000 USD.The Chinese mind is indeed a very strange thing- I think they have some odd meme or genetic persecution complex- a vivid psychotic delusion incongruent with reality.
Chinese population is basically concentrated in the less pleasant suburbs of Jakarta- the North:
Glodok, Pluit, Kelapa Gading, Karawaci (itself worthy of a book) Tanjung Priok, Slipi Grogol, etc.
and industrial and dirt-cheap East (Tanggerang, Bekasi, etc) among the majority Betawi farmers.
I am unsure of the West- I believe it is still mainly farmlands.
Where are all the mega brothels, amphetamines labs, gambling dens, strip clubs, gay clubs?I’ll assume you’re a decent person incapable of ever visiting such dens of human slavery- so I won’t say.
Where I live in the South- in Pondok Indah roughly 85%+ pribumi, 10% Chinese and 2% expat.
Chinese neighbours are all old money- all very pleasant- my neighbours speak very good Javanese using obscure regional colloquialisms.They do as the Romans do.
And No riots in South Jakarta- I wonder why…You are aware Indonesia has a IMF debt of 34% of GDP. Indonesia was burdened with a debt of 4.2 billion dollars US in 1949- the proce of freedom due to Treaty to end Dutch Colony- which equates to
$37.3 billion using the Consumer Price Index
$31.5 billion using the GDP deflator
$61 billion using the value of consumer bundle
$62.1 billion using the unskilled wage *
$109.6 billion using the nominal GDP per capita
$222.1 billion using the relative share of GDPfrom
http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/result.php32 years of Australian supported and co-bankrolled Suharto was not exactly conducive to nation building.
YET Australia was well aware of Suharto’s alleged corruption and it, the US and UK still shovelled money in?And now Indonesia must pay it back- despite Western selective blindness?
Rather unsportsmanlike- would you not agree?The reality was- what choice did Suharto a war hero have- agree to loans or let US and UK tear Indonesian apart one island at a time and attempt assassinating him as CIA-Mi6 and peripherally ASIO had done 7 times to Sukarno.
You forget- Suharto along with Nasution and Sudirman were hardened combat veterans, war heroes and the three participants in the famous act that forced the UN to stop the Dutch- Hotel Oranye and tearing down that hated flag .
You forget the Dutch sent in 150,000 soldiers and the British, your Masters- sent in 60,000, some Australians among them.
In 1965- Australia ran to Mother Eglands petticoat to crush the will of the UN and impose Malaysia and Brunei without popular referendum as per UN ruling.
Brunei wold have certainly merged with Indonesia- hence UK assassinates the Sultan and imposes a puppet not in line to throne.
Malaysia? who knows- but it never got the chance- not even a “charsde” referendum as termed by Australian moral onanists term the UN recognised absorption of Irian Jaya.In 2002- you steal East Timor for North West Shelf gas as Suharto has the gall to ask Woodside Petroleum for a better deal.
But West Timor- closer to Australia- does not ask for freedom? Oh- I see- no Gas.I do not recall any American, British or Australian leader with such personal courage, valour or distinction- including the beloved Menzies- a cowardly war-monger and draft dodger.
I also looked up Wikipedia Simple English just for you, Andy about Indonesia- plenty of pretty pictures- I think some you can print then colour- enjoy:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndonesiaYou see- we the pribumi- are far more knowledgeable and cunning than you realise, Mas Andy.
We have thousands of years heads start.
I do hope one of us may host you authentically and acquaint yourself to any of us proud paradoxes.Please do not be a stranger to a pribumi- we are famous for our hospitality- as only when it is abused- do we get annoyed.
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Oh Purba, I am not a stranger at all to pribumi. But again I will say the pribumi you know and love is Javanese, not Papua, not Timorese, not Ambonese etc. I lived with my chinese wife and her family in Central Jakarta in an area which was 98.9% pribumi, 1% chinese and then there was me. I tried very hard to be friendly with the locals even setting up sports programs (basketball games) in the local kampung. Some kids were friendly but by and large they were rude, impolite and only interested in bule money. I don’t ever blame the kids, they learn from their parents, schools, pesantren etc. I then set up my programs in a christian orphanage about 1 km away with kids mainly from Papua and was greeted with much enthusiasm. Oh and by the way Purba, I am not christian either, I in fact have no religion.
During Ramadan I wanted to buy beer from the local warung but the owner was scared of attacks by local mobs who were in their fasting period. Now, we respect everyone’s right to worship but can’t they respect that we are different and do things in a different way? The local mosque preached hatred and bigotry towards the west. This may surprise you Purba but my wife speaks Bahasa and I speak some as well (if not I couldn’t survive where I was) so could hear this as we walked past the mosque. I know you think I must have lived in a flash apartment in an enclave somewhere but I really did want to be close to the true people of your country. All I got in return was a lack of respect and a not so proud race with their hands out at every opportunity. If Indonesians ever want to take their place in the world they have to stand on their own two feet.
Purba, you speak of kampungs outside of Melbourne, now surely being in Central Jakarta, I was in the most enlightened of areas. Major metropolitan area of Indonesia? If this is the case in an area of the country with a high foreign population and the better education systems in place, I fear for what it might have been like to live in a rural area.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
oh Purba, I didn’t want you to look at pretty pictures, this page is more of what I had in mind.
You never did answer my question. Why do your kids study in Australia? Doesn’t a proud patriot like yourself trust your education system?
finally, of course an aussie ocker who hasn’t travelled much can’t understand Indonesian broken english. But many a taxi driver in Jakarta couldn’t understand my Bahasa-even place names as I found when they routinely took me the wrong way.
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Totally wrong Purba,
Long before Beijing Olympics, Chinatown had been a bridge for China to learn about the West and the West learn about China. It was true that during the past Chinatown was exclusive simply because the misunderstanding between Western people and Chinese.
You are aware Indonesia has a IMF debt of 34% of GDP. Indonesia was burdened with a debt of 4.2 billion dollars US in 1949- the proce of freedom due to Treaty to end Dutch Colony
And again, you pribumi blame others for your own problems. So, you don’t think that Indonesian independence declaration was a blunder, do you? Often, I imagine what would be the Indonesia today if those activities in 1945 were patient enough to wait until Indonesia was ready for independence, without needed to fight with Dutch and British. Could be as advance as Singapore or Brunei, at least Malaysia.
Don’t you ever think about the possibility that Japanese had used pribumi against West by promising something unrealistic such as independence? They were losing the WWII anyway. Also, if you praises Japanese for their aids for the govn of Indonesia, can you also do the same to the Chinese govnt who has been giving money to Indonesia for the last ten years? Or pribumi is just “tidak tahu terima kasih”?
One more, do you also reckon that many Chinese in Indonesia are also poor? You can find them in Singkawang, downtown Surabaya, etc. Some of them even stateless. But the pribumi officials still want to take their money.
Last, do you realize that Chinese are the ones that build Indonesia’s economy? If many Chinese are getting rich, that’s normal as a reward. Especially during Suharto’s, when Chinese were banned to do anything else than business.
Try to respect other Purba. Get mature.
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My son was educated for the very simple an pragmatic reason- Australian or overseas education carries a greater status than Indonesian at that time.
In 1998- the Rupiah was 17000 to the 1 US dollar, having dropped in value from 2000 rupiah to one Australian dollar. It was my desire to send children to the UK- where they might complete post grad degree, as I had, in excellent institution.
But unfortunately- having lost a huge portion of our wealth we, like many Indonesian- opted for what was sold to us as 2nd best choice. It turned pout to be a very poor 9th if that.
And it is is close and cost of living much cheaper than UK.Now employers know that this is not necessarily the case and Australian degree and university place can be easily bought- but at the time we were naive.
You tell Australia one riot sob-story- you get scholarships, residency, a pat on the back and a present.
Syvester- you get sillier by every answer.
Chinatown a cultural bridge- that’s post-modernist multi-culturalist nonsense. I expected you to be at least part-way intelligent.
Chinatown was made by Chinese to congregate and ghettoize themselves among themselves, by themselves. An exact replication of home, a colony.Chinese were free to live amongst anyone they chose to- but they chose to live amongst themselves and live insular replications of home life- choosing never having to adopt the foreigner’s language beyond the basic bare necessities.
This is a good example of Chinese emotional immaturity.
Creating a physical ‘self’- to protect the fragile self-identity from ever confronting the frightening foreigner.
Loss or devaluation of previous self-identity construct means facing the awful truth- I am worth less than I make myself out to be.
Children do this often.Human psychology was part of my military training- it makes for a superior interrogator- how to break adults.
I did a news search for Chinese Aid- $83 million. We already gave thanks- how many do you want.
You offered a gift- in Javanese- it is very rude to offer any gift- however small. It is also very rude not to exopress one’s gratitudeBut by far ruder is to boast about one’s present and keep asking for gratitude.
The US and Russia gave far more.
But wait- there’s more to it:from China’s tsunami aid: political interests not humanitarian concern
written by By John Chan (Chinese):
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jan2005/chin-j18.shtmlThe state-controlled media boasted that the decision was a sign that China was emerging as a “responsible” power in the region.
It even was leaked to the press that the premier had urged accompanying delegates to limit their luggage so as to load more aid.
So silly- it’s humour. Kim Jong Il anyone?One factor is the ongoing rivalry between China and Taiwan for influence, especially in the Asia Pacific region. Having initially pledged just $2.62 million in aid, Beijing was embarrassed by Taipei’s announcement of a $5 million package. Each side sought to outdo the other with Taiwan increasing its aid to $50 million.
“‘I’m more generous, no I’M more generous. NO I’m MORE generous”. Kids tsk, tsk, tsk- always fighting over parent’s affections.
But Mr Chan gets even better:
The hypocritical attitude of the Beijing bureaucrats to the tsunami catastrophe is underscored by the domestic social disaster over which they preside every day. Hundreds of millions of people are struggling on a dollar or two a day. Millions of workers had been laid off from state-owned enterprises. Many farmers are either bankrupt or have lost their land, forcing tens of millions to the cities to find low-paid work. Millions of children whose parents cannot afford to send them to school end up as child labourers.Industrial accidents, especially in mining and the export zones, kill and injure tens of thousands of workers every year. Severe pollution has created many “cancer villages” throughout rural China. Inadequate and poorly policed planning regulations result in many deadly fires and building collapses. Natural disasters such as floods kill thousands of people every year due to the lack of proper assistance or infrastructure.
Oh dear- like in Shanghai- the glossy roadside posters covering kilometre after kilometre of the slums is falling down in places.
And Mr CHan really hits the nail on the head:
“The attitude of top government officials and the wealthy elite to the impoverished tsunami victims in southern Asia is no different from their attitude towards the Chinese poor. They simply calculated that the catastrophe could be turned to their advantage by raising China’s international profile and cementing closer ties in a region where China has significant economic and strategic interests.”Who’d have thought it- A Chinese trashes the Chinese better than me?
Superb work Mr Chan. -
Andy- and Sylvester
Timorese, Ambonese and IRIAN are all pribumi. They are merely confused- seeing Westerner like a pedohile offering lollies to innocent children- in their innocence they do not comprehend the looming sodomy.The Consitution very clearly defines what is Indonesian and not.
And no mount of poltical pandering by bed-wetting sycophants like SBY or GusDur- darlings of the West since they bought them- can ever change that.
Your blundering Aussie Detective was incredibly lucky Sutiyoso was not armed and smart enough to be diplomatic.
Sutiyoso would have otherwise acted within full legality- unlike your police.The stateless Chinese have a very easy choice- become loyal to Indonesia or go home. Easy.
Not pribumi’s fault they’re poor and trespassing- go blame the Dutch and Chinese who imported them and ask them for money and sympathy.I quote from the Consitution:
Preamble:
“1. THE PREAMBLE TO THE CONSTITUTION
…
Subsequent thereto, to form a government of the state of Indonesia which shall protect ALL the people of Indonesia and their entire NATIVE land…CITIZENSHIP
Article 26
(1). Citizens shall be all NATIVE-born Indonesians and OTHER NATIONALS nationals who have obtained citizenship by virtue of LAW.People of other nations, such as those of Dutch, Chinese and Arabic descents, whose domicile is Indonesia, RECOGNIZE INDONESIA AS THEIR HOME country AND ARE LOYAL to the Republic of Indonesia, MAY become citizens.”
http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/indonesia/ConstIndonesia.html
Very simple- and not made post facto like Australia, into a handy pocket book. Pathetic.
The Chinese government has striven effortlessly to create via hype, PR and Nat Geo hagiography the all important Chinese “public face”.
BUT- like Wayang- Chineese can be likened to their arts.
Chinese theatre- unlike Japanese “No” theatre-is all bang, crash flash, flashy kung fu and blurs of activity.All lurid distractions from the well-hidden truth: behind the lovely silk curtains, fancy costumes and splendid decorations there is no one but poor, skinny, naked actors working finger to bone for their daily bread.
But like No- behind the screen off the wayang is a huge mandala- expensive orchestras the west openly admires, proud willing servants of the Keraton, and pendopo after pendopo of courtiers, officials, until the the throne.
Indonesia IS Java, Andy. We fought for it- we built it.
Get used to it- we are 45-48% of the population and soon will be the absolute majority.Unlike the West- the silent majority rules the roost- not sycophants and beloved loud minorities.
Wes? Monggo…
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PN…
The constitutional argument you make is purposefully misleading and simplistic. It undoubtedly suits your point but as I said it is misleading.
The “stateless” Chinese you refer to are stateless because of the discrimination of the Indonesian state against them. They have different hurdles to clear that other Indonesian citizens do not.
The majority of Indonesians of Chinese descent have been in Indonesia for generations. This means that they have been born and raised here. China is not their home, Indonesia is.
It is simplistic to suggest that these individuals have a simple choice of choosing to be loyal to Indonesia or go home, particularly when home is Indonesia. Where is home for a 3rd, 4th, 5th generation immigrant? The majority of these stateless Chinese, as you call them, are not illegal immigrants in the current sense of the word. Although as a lawyer one might be able to make a case that without paperwork then in a technical sense they are 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation illegal immigrants.
In any event if one of these stateless Chinese choose to be “loyal” to Indonesia then they are required to jump through hoops and perform like circus animals while paying for the pleasure of declaring loyalty to the Indonesian state. The circus analogy here refers to the impossible demands in many cases to supply documentation that was never issued by a state that has consistently discriminated against the minority of Indonesians of Chinese heritage.
There are cases of this type of discrimination continuing even in 2008 despite the fact that there are laws and regulations in place to prevent this very kind of discrimination.
Onto other issues…
Pribumi is most often translated as indigenous. I am sure you can look up in a dictionary or Wikipedia for a definition of the term. I have often wondered what an “indigenous Indonesian” is considering that the Republic of Indonesia is a socio-political construct based on an artificial belief of territorial control exerted by the VOC that developed into a map that eventually became the Republic of Indonesia.
Maybe indigenous Indonesians are only those that can trace their line back to the Majapahit Kingdom, which seems to be in itself the product of territorial conquest. The Papuans are obviously not indigenous Indonesians they are indigenous to the island on which they live. This island happened to be incorporated into Indonesia through a fraudulent direct vote referendum of hand-picked “believers”. Perhaps some of these believers might have had second thoughts if they had the ability to look into the future and see what has come to pass.
Have a good day one and all!
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Rob,
not OUR problem. we already have 35 million. Last time I saw- the West was imploding and effecting the world economy because of its’ own greed- and yet you dare lecture us in your pink frilly undies?Go chase the Dutch and Chinese importers for your beloved electively stateless Chinese.
The bureaucracy and process exists- is not easy for anyone.Do not be a sucker for Chinese sob stories- their talk is cheap and proof scanty.
The argument is simple not simplistic because it is simple. Very easy- you no like? you go away. Simple.
Pribumi is easily defined- pri- puteri son, bumi- earth.
Native- indigenous to IndonesiaMalaysia enshrines this by law- yet I do not hear the moralistas and bed-wetters complaining about them?
Or is mindless support for British installed, UN usurping, states mandatory for the moral onanist?Sorry- UN, UK, US, Australia, Russia and China all agree Irian is ours- end of argument.
The who, whats, wheres whys and hows are irrelevant.
Don’t like it? Tough titties.We will not allow Irian to become another Australian colony like New Guinea- where I point out Australia installed a non-anew guinea born Chinese prime minister (ex British lackey) who hired South African mercenaries to quell hostility to Australian exploitation of Bougainville. Then the world found out- Australia had its’ trousers around its’ ankles, yet again and reversed the blame game.
But I don’t hear your moaning and whincing about Australia occupying Cocos or Christmas Islands (traditional Indonesian fishing island) or the US occupying North Mariana, Saipan or Haiwaii.
Is Falklands closer to Argentina or UK? So why does UK claim it? Ethnic links?Clean your own yard first- then complain about my lawn.
Put up & shut up or leave. Simple Rob
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PN…
Why shouldn’t I listen to the Indonesian sob stories of those with a Chinese heritage? After all I have to read your sob stories on how this single minority in cohorts with western nations and Judaism is the root of all Indonesia’s ills!
There is no question that some of these other states have their own back (and perhaps front) yards to clean. However, this is not an argument of justification bit rather one of aversion to answering the more pressign questions at home! My post was not about the ills of other countries but a direct response to part of the argument you were making about the Constitution and questions posed by others along the lines of, “what is a pribumi anyway?”
In my own defence, I do not own any pink undies with frills. As a matter of fact I have no frilly undies whatsoever. Perhaps you confuse me with someone else you know? The Indonesians of Chinese descent in Indonesia are not electively stateless. That is such a load of rubbish. You once again seem to be confusing the upper echelons of the Indonesian community of Chinese descent, who you blame for all manner of problems in Indonesia, with their poor brothers and sisters who do not have the resources to work the system to obtain the necessary paperwork to declare their loyalty to Indonesia and claim their rights as citizens.
It is these poor want-to-be Indonesians that are at the mercy of the predominately pribumi bureaucracy that has for many decades been intent on making it nigh impossible to declare this loyalty that your flimsy argument is so heavily based.
Perhaps you are not as widely read as you claim when it comes to pribumi politics in Malaysia as you claim to be. Nevertheless, you draw a comparison which will undoubtedly rely on a Wiki citation or two. There is no doubt that the rights of Malaysian pribumis are enshrined in many affirmative action type laws but that does not automatically make them right and nor does it suggest that there are not moralistas, bed-wetters, or onanists out there writing on the topic. I am glad you got to use your three favourite terms of insult!
Just because the nations you note say it is time to let bygones be bygones does not mean that there can be no further exploration of the events, the context of those events, and the legality of those events. This is not a suggestion or a call for any historical revision. It is, though, a suggestion for future debate, albeit academic.
Surely you hve something better than the New Guinea example and Sandline in Bouganville? New Guinea is a free, independent state, with a lot of problems last time I checked. It will take some convincing to convince me and most others that the current problems in New Guinea all stem from Australian involvement.
The Cocos (Keeling) Islands is a good example and has some similarities and differences to the Papua example (which you can read here).
On cleaning up my own backyard, no need to worry yourself about that, I am onto it! In terms of commenting on your front lawn, fair is fair! If you are happy to cast the blame net far and wide then it is equally fair for others to comment on the quality of your lawn, don’t you think?
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Purba, I will play moral policeman over you or any Indonesian. Your record in the world is truly appalling and not much better than Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe. I feel sad and ashamed that my country ever supported the rape and destruction of the outlying islands of your country but the majority of Australians (and indeed westerners) know what your people (the javanese) have done and don’t and never will support your cause. Go back to wikipedia / or google and check the human rights record of your country as judged by neutral observers. It is an outrage. In 1969 Papuans voted in a referendum with gun barrels pointed at them whether they wanted to be part of Indonesia or not. I can see my country naively at the time thought the region would be safer if Indonesia was as it is (under Suharto’s brutal regime) than under a communist leadership. This was the time of the cold war and the domino theory was still a great threat to some. But now in hindsight it was a huge mistake. I would rather have communist neighbours than a radical, oversensitive, Islamic nation. At least I can say if Suharto’s coup didn’t pay off the communists would have triumphed and people like the Bali bombers would have been wallowing in a concentration camp or in the bottom of the river. This kind of scum are quietly supported by the majority of Javanese. If I am wrong on this statement prove it.
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Andy…
PN is a serial baiter and you are being sucked in to a game of cheap amusement for him. What you need to understand about PN is that he is a projectionist in that very Freudian sense (It was Freud, right? I should have paid more attention to detail in psych class). He projects his human frailities onto others and this is why he singles people out as being bed-wetters, onanists, and moralistas, among a number of other classic insults. The lastest being the wearing of pink frilly knickers. Take a moment to picture the gravatar of PN and the fashion sense of a red beret accompanying pink frilly undies 😀
I am not going to defend anything that PN says. However, you are doing something similar when you start throwing around terms like “your people” and “the Javanese” as some kind of insult. PN may or may not be Javanese, but to suggest that all Javanese are the same as PN is way off the mark
I hate being lumped into a stereotype that says all white people are the same, or being lumped into a category of all anglo-celts, or all Australians, or all expats in Indonesia are the same. All Javanese are just not harbouring the same attitudes that PN does. Some might, however I know a lot on Indonesians and I know that they, at least the ones I know, do not harbour the views of PN.
I am not sure that the direct ballot referendum in Papua was really about communism. I fail to see how the communists would have been able to convince the Papuans of the supposed additional “benefits” of adopting a communist model. This is particularly so when the tribal nature of Papuan society at that time is considered.
The issue was probably more to do with securing natural resources that could at some point in the future be raped and pillaged for vast profits. In contrast, the domino theory and the creation of a mini Cuba on Australia’s door stop might have been an easy argument to trot out with respect to Timor Leste.
The comparison of Indonesia and Zimbabwe is an interesting one. Perhaps some elaboration on that issue would help in seeing the argument. I rarely hear Indonesia and Zimbabwe in the same sentence together with appalling.
Anyway…have a nice day!
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Cukurungan says:
I will play moral policeman over you or any Indonesian
Could you please elaborate what does it mean? Does molesting a little boy and selling drug part of the moral police job.
This kind of scum are quietly supported by the majority of Javanese. If I am wrong on this statement prove it.
What is wrong … Amrozi and his friend already played moral police over Australian as your request…He done it? Aren’t Australian also supporting their crook pedophile and drug dealer even they have no shame to ask remission for their criminal brother and sister
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Andy…
Perhaps the challenge you issue works both ways! If you are right about this silent majority of Javanese supporting the sort of terrorism perpetrated by Amrozi and his fellow terrorists, then prove it!
Proving it would require something more than anecdotal musings!
Cukurungan…
You are a one-trick pony!
Your justification fro everything comes back to this crude stereotyping of all critics as pederasts and drug dealers. Your arguments are recognizable by their lack of ‘arguments”.
Nice day to all!
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Cukurungan you are an imbecile, what does any of your post mean?
Are you accusing me or my government of pedophilia or drug dealing? If so you are another moronic Aussie basher who shows his ingratitude to his generous southern neighbour. Please explain yourself more clearly. If what I said is true and I guess you are another lazy underachiever of the ilk that I posted about here, please report to the Australian Embassy in Kuningan and return your cut of the massive foreign aid contribution my country makes to yours.
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Ok Rob, I guess it goes back to my teaching days in Indonesia when I used to try to play devil’s advocate to encourage debate and free speech in the classroom. The majority (not all) didn’t actively support the terrorists but they were apologists and made many of the same arguments PN and Cukurungan have on this and other forums. It usually boils down to the need to belong to one group or the other and as muslims they feel for all the bad they have done they are still brothers. Well this is a common thread I have found in my travels and 3 1/2 year stay in the country.
I really I hope I am wrong on this and would love to hear from Indonesians who detest and are angry at what Amrozi and co. have done to the victims, the tourist industry in Bali and the name of their country.
I also recall the cheers by many throughout the muslim world when the twin towers of New York crashed to the ground, the higher approval rating that Bin Laden enjoyed over the US president and the smirks the day our Embassy was attacked. Religion is truly a dangerous tool when misused by the uneducated and ignorant.
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Yup Rob, this silly and lunatic PN is nothing. Wasting my time.
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Are you accusing me or my government of pedophilia or drug dealing?
I was not accusing but check by your self… what kind Australian moral police has became dweller Jail in Bali….let be fair … if you can generalize all of us like amrozi…so what is wrong if we do the same thing that all of you just like criminal who stayed in Bali Jail
Australian Embassy in Kuningan and return your cut of the massive foreign aid contribution my country makes to yours.
Our ancestor have been here without foreign aid along before British send your ancestor to Australia and if Australian do not like us just stop your aids and we do not care because we eat rice grown from our own land and not because your foreign aids.
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Andy, pribumis like PN: “tidak tahu terima kasih”
China provide billions USD soft loan for Indonesia, such as for Surabaya-Madura bridge.Speaking about pedophile, again Indonesia is a lot worse than Australia. Look at places like Dolly, Moroseneng, or similar place in Semarang, Bandung, Jakarta. Look also several pesantren where those haji sexually abuse the students. Check how many rape cases by stepfathers?
However, I still think many Indonesian in general are good, except for some people like PN.
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Andy…
Gotta say it must have been hard yakka playing the Devil’s Advocate in an Indonesian classroom! In a classroom with limited language skills (vocab more than anything else) this would have been even harder still. This is without factoring in the preferred method of ROTE learning emplyed in most educational institutions throughout the archipelago.
On the apologist front. This is anecdotal and hardly empirical. There are plenty of westerners that would fit into the “apologist” category. It is hardly evidence of a silent majority. The arguments that are based on the US got what was coming to it are not only in the Muslim world!
The real challenge is identifying the silent majority that do not agree with the more violent interpretations of anything, including religion, and giving them a voice or at least the confidence to express that voice. It is just too simple to boil this thing down to “us” and “them”. If we do or if we allow it to become as simple as this then “we” as a people will never overcome our differences and find a peaceful and harmonious co-existence.
I am the eternal optimist. Nevertheless, the cynic in me recognizes that conflict is big business and as such the perpetuation of fear and loathing ensures that business stays good! This includes the aid business.
There are Indonesian voices who have come out against those whose interpretations of the Qur’an pernit the sort of violence we saw in Bali to be perpetrated. Perhaps Indonesians deserve more credit than they are given on this front.
Religion is not misused by the uneducated and the ignorant. It is misused by the educated to advance a particular cause. The uneducated and ignorant to which you refer are those poor unfortunate souls that are exploited by those advocating hate and intolerance. You do not see Abu Bakar Ba’syir for example strapping on a suicide vest, do you?
My point in my earlier comments was that “not all” Javanese are of the same ilk.
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Andy, pribumis like PN: “tidak tahu terima kasih”
China provide billions USD soft loan for Indonesia, such as for Surabaya-Madura bridge.Friend terima kasih for what ….Indonesia has made huge contribution on China Economic Booming…check where does edi tansil, Salim and Cukong ganster is hiding their stolen uang rakyat Indonesia……most stolen uang rakyat has been made to build many infrastructure and basic Textile industries in china and those China industries now striking back to kill Indonesia Textile Industry.
I am very aware what does it mean the soft loan in case you do not know I will try to explain here :
The Soft loan is one of the deceit method to sell product and service of more advance industrial country to other less Industrial country under label of the soft loan.
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Sylvester-
Try placing your feet in our pribumi sandals, instead of Gucci loafers or whatever young Chinese kid wearing these days. Or even the sandals of the oppressed millions of mainland Chinese living on less than1 US per day whose will never taste the economic prosperity of a select few coastal Chinese cities.The issues raised are always regarding ulterior economic gain- as outlined by Chan. There is no such thing as “aid”- it is merely the large tip to the maitre’d for a nice table.
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Purba-Or even the sandals of the oppressed millions of mainland Chinese living on less than1 US per day whose will never taste the economic prosperity of a select few coastal Chinese cities.
Well i’m sure pribumi (javanese) always pay their workers a liveable wage. Where I used to work the driver and office boys (who were amongst the most hardworking) were paid around 500,000Rp a month. How much is that in Aussie dollars. Would have paid for lunch for my wife and I on one occasion. And these poor guys had to feed their families for a whole month.
The ultimate slap in the face was the owner in a fit of generosity told all the employees he would buy them dinner at Hana Masa. But these guys who worked their tails off for the year were not invited. Would never happen in a bule company. No wonder the students who worked in bule companies said they would never go back to working for their own people.
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More BS Andy,
it gets a little boring.and yes we do pay legal wages otherwise we face the very real threat of being attacked by mobs as we are not allowed the same police protection the Chinese keenly buy.
I know the wage for KPMG is Rp 800,000 per month for an economics graduate.
My older maids earn more than 1 million per month, untaxed, with free room, electricity, food, water, gas, basic consumables and iI just paid for one of her sons’ full tuition for Primary School
This is typical of we true bangsawan Jawa.
Other ethnics are not known for their generosity, but however meagre it may be, it is still far superior than that ever claimeded by a Chinese.
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DXP, Andy, Sylvester- it’s time to call it quits- everyone wins.
But- if China is so good and Indonesia so bad- why not go home to Guangzhou?
Maybe Indonesia is not so bad after all.
Chinese are welcome PROVIDING but when they are in Rome they do exactly as the Romans do.
Many Pribumi are less educated because of money. Simple. Just like China or India.
Chinese in Indonesia will never understand how awful life in poverty is for the pribumi- if they knew they would be more compassionate, generous and behave in the Christian manner they claim to adhere to. Chinese retain a strong clan structure where extended family will help out.
This does not exist for the pribumi. Extended family if alive, are as poor, if not poorer.
For many pribumi- 2 meals of Indo mie is the most they can afford.
For many pribumi- children working as Jakarta maid is the difference between starvation or a meal.
Baby milk costs Rp100,000 per tin- a small fortune for many pribumi. A meal is usually budgeted at 3-4000 Rp.
Bintang is ca Rp 20,000- this is 3 meals to a pribumi worker.
How can the pribumi better themselves on no money and no credit and no hope?
Indonesia, like China, does not have the money for a welfare state- government cannot help. NOT will not- CAN NOT. Very important to comprehend: CAN NOT- no money without loans.
Pribumi commonly can only finish primary school. Parents cannot pay, do not earn enough to support them and must by necessity kids must be sent off for work.
Wayang has often been used by academic to describe elements of Indonesia- and it is very apt.
It describes well our thoughts, our behaviour, our mentality.
Pribumi can be multiple paradoxes simultaneously: dumb, yet smart, lazy, yet hardworking, splurger but a spendthrift, good and bad.
Yet- paradoxically- the very brightest academics, scientists, government officials, military tacticians, engineers, etc are all Pribumi.
The very finest and probably the very worst of our society is 100% pribumi.
Racism and chauvinism is very much alive for every race here. We are far more open about this than Westerner- we do not think it taboo. It is true Indonesians like to stereotype- our society is highly stratified and conservative- everyone must fit a pigeonhole.
Unlike Westerner- we do not cowardly brush things under carpet and willfully pretend we like nuisances to assuage our bourgeoisie craving for fuzzy feeling all-over.
Chinese, Indonesian, Arab, Indian, Bule- everyone has something negative to say.
Indonesians work as hard as Chinese workers- if not more so in 30+ degree heat and 90% humidity.
If not- Jakarta would be all shacks- no highrises anywhere (100% pribumi labour)
Pribumi can build complex multi-storeys far quicker and superior quality than a Singapore, US, or Aust worker. See Plaza Indonesia complex for proof.
As a trained engineer- I can honestly state Indonesian building standard is excellent- WHEN- properly paid, supervised and obeys the letter of the law.
We Indonesians are the Vikings of the East- like them we are skilled metallurgists, artists, poets, balladeers, sculptors, seafarers, voyagers and warriors.
We have colonised as far as Hawaii, some claim introduced iron work into Africa, and discovered Northern Australia 10 centuries before the whites.
We build mainly in wood- like the Viking- unfortunately termite is very hungry in Indonesia, many volcano eruptions and like the Viking- we are very fond of fire- so little lasts either us or the elements.
Pribumi are master builders, craftsmen, tradesman and artisans. Very few can match their woodworking, brick-laying or stone-masonry skills.
Our fine arts are equals with the West. Our modern art is now THE hottest item for Christies – formerly Chinese (but market considers it overpriced now).
An ideal pribumi is the Balinese stone artisan- half of his life devoted to work managing his ancestral farms, half devoted to selfless art.
Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom were built with Javanese instruction- inscriptions on them prove this.
Indonesia has thousands of relics and treasures still be uncovered- Trowulan is just one example where several towns now cover an ancient city.
Trowulan is twice bigger than Angkor Wat.
Until 1998, Indonesia was on an exponential upward curve- even in Jakarta you can see some skeletons of buildings suddenly abandoned when seeming endless money ran out.
About your complaints:
eating habits- upbringing and class not cultural.
My parents were very, very strict and Javanese- even chopstick and sate are banned (far too crude for dinner table) , no eating sounds, no cutlery/crockery sounds, no talking, no slouching, no leaning on hand while shoveling food into mouth. Parents and elders must finish first, then eat in order of age. Younger people must sungkem to parents before they leave table.
Finger-eating, sate stick and chopstick is totally banned to my employee. Very crude.
Some moron claim it is tradition or culture. NO. We have thousands of prehistoric cutlery in Jakarta Museum.
It is biasaan bukan budayaan- a “norm”- a crude and unhygienic peasant eating method now bizarrely warped into a display of “Javanese-ness”.
I have been to the West- my son studied in Melbourne.
Do not bullsh*t yourself into thinking somehow Australia is superior- in many respects it is regressive.
Can you with a straight face claim Australian Customer Service is the a benchmark of excellence? or British? Or black/Hispanic American?
DXP:
fundamental factors cause China to be number one manufacturer (and incidentally loss of manufacture from ASEAN to China)
Limitless supply of Government wage-suppressed labour
Total government stability
Smooth bureaucracy
good ports and rail
stable exchange via pegged RMB-dollar (also a point of US contention)
It’s a one-stop sweatshop that’s why multi-nationals love it