Blaming the Victim & Others
Jun 4th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Explanations for the FPI violence at Monas, blaming the victims, the government, and foreign plots.
Ahmadiyah
Head of the Muslim Lawyers’ Team (Tim Pengacara Muslim,TPM), Mahendradatta, says the Monas incident was caused by the AKKBB side making deliberately provocative speeches, saying such as things as
the FPI are Laskar Kafir (Infidels’ Front) and Laskar Setan (Satan’s Front).
Other provocations included the ‘fact’ that the AKKBB gathering was illegal, without police permission, and that one AKKBB person was carrying a weapon. beritasore
Tgk Faisal M Ali of the Himpunan Ulama Dayah Aceh (HUDA) in Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam (NAD) says the government needs to see the incident in a fully formed way, that the root cause is the weakness in the upholding of law in Indonesia, that it still had not banned the Ahmadiyah sect.
Presidential spokesman Andi Mallarangeng was having none of it however, and said the delay in the publication of the SKB edict concerning Ahmadiyah could not be used as an excuse for assaulting people. okezone
Conspiracies
Faisal Ali, who was also once the leader of the student group Rabithah Thaliban in Aceh, says he condemned the FPI violence but banning the FPI was not the solution, banning Ahmadiyah was, and if the FPI were banned this would mean the government was allowing the foreign conspiracies in Indonesia to ruin Islam to succeed. beritasore
Parliamentarian Soeripto, the Vice Chairman of Commission III in the House of Representatives (DPR) from the Prosperous Justice Party (PKS/Partai Keadilan Sejahtera), says he suspects the FPI violence was part of an anti-Islam American plot.
Soeripto
Soeripto, who has a long history of work in the intelligence field, said Mossad and CIA had already taken over most militant organisations in the world, so they had probably taken over the FPI, and added that Al Qaeda in Afghanistan remained the only “pure” movement left. okezone
55 Comments on “Blaming the Victim & Others”
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kinch says:
Ross: I think you might find the blog called ‘Unqualified Reservations’ interesting. First Google result.
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timdog says:
Kinch and Ross – great stuff. Kinch I love the “two trees” analysis of pre-65 Indonesian politics.
@ Shloka – charmed and delighted to discover that you are a woman. However, I would gently point out to you that we are not discussing whether Islam is evil or not here; we are talking about Indonesian politics and it’s history. Islam clearly has a role in the topic, but what you or I may think of the faith is completely irrelevant to it.
Unlike you, I am not a one trick pony…And just to clarify, when I mentioned Islam above I was merely explaining why it has sometimes been called a “socialist religion” (not by me). And please note that I wrote “I hasten to add that that is all only the theory, not the practice” (actually I’m a little disappointed that Ross didn’t pick up on that and felt the need to dig out the Caliphate).
Further to clarify, I am personally highly dubious about the line, still often used by some serious historians, that Islam appealed in some of the areas it entered because of its “all men are equal” elements, contrasting with the strictly hierarchical pre-existing societies… This seems absurd, given that, particularly in Indonesia, Islam came to “the masses” via local rulers and aristocrats… but I digress…@Kinch – I totally agree about the importance of the move to the cities etc and wouldn’t ever try to claim that the existence of “radical Islam” in Indonesia is entirely due to the elimination of the communists, or even at all due to it. However, I do believe that it is able to occupy a vacant niche created entirely by the absolute absence of any non-religious political radicalism, and thrives in a climate where mainstream democratic politics is utterly lacking in any distinct ideology – and that is down to “annihilation of the left” and the enduring terror among Indonesian politicians of saying anything that could be mis-construed as “communist”…
@Ross – I just wanted to address a couple of your specific points first rather than trying to tangle them up in my wider response.
Re. Ratu Adil – Westerling? Good grief! That’s an obscure one to drag out – the tiniest of footnotes in an ancient established concept.
Yes indeed the rather more notable figures attached to the Ratu Adil concept were royals (Trunajaya, Diponegoro); however, they were royals outside of the existing aristocratic establishment, “rebels”, “of the people”, and inveighing against the “bourgeoisie”… at least in the myths anyway…Re. Your hope for the future. I too very much like the idea of an abandonment of Islamism and a return to Kejawen… (might have happened had Kejawen been given the status of an official religion back in the day). But the problem with that one? Well, the clue’s in the name, “Kejawen”… and therein lies the truth, therein lies the fundamental problem of Indonesia, far more pressing than Communism or its absence, far more pressing than the rise of FPI etc.
Far more pressing than anything is the obvious fact that while Java, Bali, Sulawesi etc are all very much there, “Indonesia” simply DOES NOT EXIST, and virtually all of the problems that the geographical zone so-labeled experiences will never be solved as long as a quarter of a billion people approach those problems from a starting point of accepting that “Indonesia” is a real thing…
But that is a far bigger fish than we are attempting to fry here…Re. Hitler… I am more than happy to acknowledge that there were some broadly socialist principles in Nazism, just as I will be the first to point out that Saddam Hussien’s political ideology, in as much as it existed (which it didn’t, not really) was thoroughly socialist… There’s no need to treat a political belief like a football team – no need to support it in its sticky patches… the same should go for national pride (you listening Shloka?)…
Re. the fall of Soviet Russia and Afghanistan… by the 1980s “communism” had long since proved a dead duck. The war in Afghanistan did not defeat “communism”; it prompted the final collapse of the lurching, addled, politically vacuous Soviet State – something else altogether.
But where the Afghan war is important is elsewhere, and much more relevant to us today. “Sadly, there were nasties in that fight too”? You’re absolutely right, and Reagan, Zia, Mubarak, the Saudis, and everyone else from the “free world” who played their part should burn in shrieking hellfire for the monster they created there (sadly, as an irreligious socialist I am unable to belief that that fate exists for them).
I firmly believe in the “blowback” theory with regards the CIA jihad in 1980s Afghanistan (the evidence is all there, in virtually every modern Islamist conflict from Abu Sayyaf to Algeria)…Re. Everything else…
I do not assume that any politics designed to curry favour with the masses are by definition leftist. In the post-development, post-political “West” quite the contrary is usually true… and as for the “masses instincts usually being right”, I’m not so sure about that. Make everything good for the “masses”, let them buy their council houses and encourage them to start their own shop-fitting companies and they seem to turn into howling reactionary bigots of stupendous small-minded xenophobia, petty greed and utter selfishness (Thatcher, you filthy old c*nt, I’ll dance on your grave), but then perhaps that’s just human nature in general…
However, back to topic… I do tend to think that truly populist politics in poor and developing countries will almost have to be at least pseudo-socialist (particularly if the existing government is notoriously corrupt)…Now, in Indonesia it is still taboo to be, as a mainstream politician, to be even pseudo-socialist… So what is there to offer “the masses”? Da-dah! Religion!
Now, to bring things back to the “socialist religion” line, it is very, very noticeable that the language of so many Islamists as they attack their own governments and the international powers is utterly, utterly reminiscent of the speeches of communist “heroes”, riddled with anger against the corrupt, the greedy, those in power, inflamed with calls for justice for “the masses”…
In Indonesia, a country where political Islam is utterly alien and ill-fitting, it is nonetheless, the only thing that can offer that kind of language.Would Islamism have a foothold in Indonesia today had “the left” not been “annihilated”? Yes, almost certainly; it’s a global phenomenon. But would it be less of a problem than it is? I firmly believe so.
And that aside, had the left not been annihilated, had a powerful taboo not been placed on leftist ideology, then Indonesian politics, all Indonesian politics, would be in a much healthier, much more vibrant state than it is today. People would perhaps know what the party they were voting for actually stood for; and I am absolutely certain there would be properly developed, politically mature right-wing parties to gain your approval Ross. Democratic politics needs space to breath and an absence of fear to develop and to be healthy, and in a healthy political system the nutters remain marginalised…***
@ Shloka – I feel sorry for you, you’ve probably ploughed through all of that and there’s not one “erroneous slur” on India or Hinduism, and nothing to take issue with about Islam either!
I’m sure you’re there, superhero cape in place, revving the engine of the Bharatmobile, ready to dash to the rescue, so I’ll throw you a bone:
Bal Thackeray is an indicted mass-murderer.
Seeing as you’re always banging on about “forced conversion of minorities in Pakistan”, here’s some interesting reading from Human Rights Watch: report.
And finally, two words for you: Roop Kanwar*Now, Shloka, before you roar out of the Bharatcave, I must stress that I the entire bit addressed to you above is intended only to wind you up (though the HRW stuff is worth a read), and I won’t be responding to anything you have to say about them… the discussion about Indonesian politics with Ross and Kinch is far, far more interesting. As I said, I’m not a one trick pony…
*For anyone else reading, I don’t actually take the words “Roop Kanwar” seriously at all; I don’t think they symbolise or are symptomatic of anything other than generic rural idiocy, though their charred, charcoaly form has been chewed over endlessly by journalists and commentators.
Still, I love saying them to Indian Hindu Nationalists, just for the hilarious instant effect: they usually go a funny colour and start screaming violent abuse, and, curiously, even if Islam has not been mentioned once in the preceding conversation, they almost invariably start screaming anti-Muslim sentiments, backed up with illustrative examples, within seconds… it’s cruel, but very funny… 😉 -
Shloka says:
@ Timdog,
Sure, ploughed through all of that. Unlike you I do have the energy to read others posts in detail. And why do I mention Islam on these threads? Because its Indo Matters and about Islamization or otherwise of Indonesia. Plenty of foreigners criticize India on threads to do with India or Hinduism, you can too. And as for starting anti Islam sentiments whenever Hinduism is mentioned, its quite contrary in this case, you start off with anti Hinduism sentiments whenever Islam is mentioned. And if Djoko can speak for Islam, why can’t I speak against it ? The Roop Kanwar people got life imprisonment unlike rape laws of Pak or stonings in Iran. If you have to compare India to a Muslim nation, its similar to Turkey and Indonesia, countries with loads of poor people, illegal misogyny and legal tolerance of other faiths. There’s no Hindu equivalent of Saudi, Iran or god forbid Afghanistan you know…
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@ Timdog,
Patung, I’m writing with your full permission, so please don’t delete.
The attitude to Muslims in India is similar to what would happen if Sri Lanka was divided into two finally, just as the Tamils rebels wanted. Northern Sri Lanka would become Tamil land, and all Ceylonese would be ruth;ess;y pushed out. No doubt the Ceylonese would be furious with the Tamils, for dividing and shrinking their beautiful homeland. But if the Tamils get an independent, self proclaimed Tamil homeland, isn’t it only fair and square that the rest of Sri Lanka remains a proclaimed ethnic Lankans land as well? If your and your brother have a quarrel over Partition, and he gets a home of his own, would you like the rest of your house to be for both of you equally, or would you want the rest of your house to be yours, just like his portion is his? Now imagine that one portion of Sri Lanka remains exclusively for Tamils, but in the rest of that shrunken land, it is equally for Tamils and Lankans, won’t the Lankans bear a grudge? At the time of Partition, just like Tamil atrocities there were Muslim atrocities coupled with their demands for a separate land. Due to policy decisions although they got the desired land exclusively on faith, glibly named Pakistan( Pure land in Arabic, ie free of Infidels) the rest of India remained secular. Although millions of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh were displaced, Muslims except in border states were left untouched. So today, Pakistan has 1%+ Hindus, India 13%+ Hindus. And I don’t think that I need to point out to you, that Pakistan and Bangladesh are not tiny like East Timor, but substantial parts of the Subcontinent’s territory. So although I don’t agree on that comment of the Indian Hindu you met,” Mussalman ke do hi stan, Pakistan aur Kabristan,” if Muslim Pakistan has 1% Hindus and has blasphemy laws of death only for Islam, isn’t it somewhat fair that India have a similar situation. Many Hindus simply would have preferred a near total population exchange, like Pakistan did with Hindus there.
As for Bal Thakarey, yes I concede he’s a mass murderer. But during the same period 1992-93, far more Hindus were butchered in Bangladesh and temples burned too. Incidentally, that was the year I fled Bangladesh with my family as a year old. A mosque built atop a Hindu temple was dertroyed by Hindu mobs. While I don’t condone their actions the remains of that millennia old Hindu temple still lay underneath, as did the idol. If Bush had semi broken the Kaaba, and built a Church atop it, I’m sure you’d support the Muslims for wanting it back. The temple too was one of Hinduism’s holiest sites, but I don’t expect similar sympathy from you for the Hindus. Muslims in retaliation to the Mosque incident, butchered Hindus in Maharashtra, and Bal Thakaray organized riots in retaliation. A similar thing happened during the Gujarat riots, Muslim mobs burned 60 innocent Hindu pilgrims to death. The state broke out in riots. Its important to note that both the riots were in retaliation, unlike FPI demands to ban Ahmadiyya, which are totally unprovoked. While that doesn’t condone them, the Hindus are not saints. The last month, Muslim terrorists bombed Jaipur, India’s most popular tourist site, although the Jaipur people have never hurt Muslims in anyway. The year before, bombs hit Hindu temples in Varanasi, and the city of Hyderabad. Again, those blasts were for no rhyme or reason. Its ironical, that whether Muslims’ are in the majority, as in Indonesia, they bomb Bali without cause, and when in the minority, they also bomb cities in India which are not war\riot\ communal conflict zones.
And Timdog, maybe it does not agree with your version of history, but the Muslim conversions weren’t only oppressed Dalits. As for oppressed Dalits, there was already a caste free religion in India- Buddhism, a majority in Sind(present Pak) were Buddhists. Islam destroyed Nalanda University, a stronghold of Buddhist studies. Muslims took their word of idols from Buddha,”but” idol worshippers were called But Parast and idol breakers But Shikan. Reza Aslan, famous apologist for Islam says Islam is ” brutal to polytheists” Remember a certain Justin et’s comments on FGM thread, nuking Mecca? India’s holiest temples were systematically destroyed, and no temple remained in some of India’s holiest cities. And of course there were Muslim Kings who were absolute bigots and prisoners of war were forcibly converted to Islam. Heard of Shah Jahan who built that immortal symbol of love -Taj Mahal? He was one of the most tolerant Muslim monarchs, he only destroyed 67 newly constructed temples. You said about Islam’s relation with the West, if you kick a dog enough times it will bite. Well, if India’s temples are destroyed by iconoclast Muslims, if Muslims get their separate homeland with 1%Hindus, but India remains secular, if millions of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants pour into India and if there are on avarage two bomb blasts a year by Muslims killing 400 a year aline, Hindus are not saints you know.
I’ll address the other issues later. Don’t bother telling me you didn’t read my post in detail.. I know.
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Shloka – I assure you I read every word. There’s none of it that I haven’t heard countless times before; most of it is based firmly on fact, but all of it is fatally tainted with national and religious pride (two clubs to which I do not belong).
I’ve spent enough time in the Subcontinent to know that very few opinions (from all players) there are otherwise…I regret to say, after all the time that you spent on it, that I will not be responding – but I did warn you up above that I wouldn’t – I was only winding you up and am only interested in discussing socialism, the anihilation of the left in Indonesia, and the effect thereof on current Indonesian politics in this thread… sorry, but like I say, I did warn you…
PS. Were you really just a year old in 92-93 or was that a typo? If it’s true then I am absolutely bowled over – I know that this can only possibly sound patronising, and for that I apologise, but though I was certainly precocious and thoroughly annoying at your age, I was nowhere near as errudite… respect!
And one final question – are you in, or have you actually been to Indonesia? This honestly isn’t a pre-amble to a “Well what the hell are you doing commenting about things you know nothing about?” statement; I’m genuinely interested. A little while back I had a fascinating conversation with a rather pompous Bengali advertising exec resident in Jakarta (we were floating around the swimming pool of a very impressive Jakarta townhouse drinking cocktails at the time – NOT, I hasten to add, something I do very often)… His impressions of Indonesia as an Indian were very interesting, and I was just genuinely interested if you could add any of your own… if not, no problem at all, and I certainly won’t hold it against you…
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@ Timdog,
That wasn’t a typo, you can visit me next time you visit India to check…I’d be delighted to take you to my school, show you my birth certificate and stuff. Just mail me before coming.I live in Kolkata, you can even stay at my house when you’re in that city.
As for visiting Indonesia, I’ve visited Malaysia and Singapore, its neighbours close by. That sort of created an interest. I also read about India’s colonization of South East Asia and I was surprised to learn that ethnic Malays are called Bhoomiputras- Sanskrit for “sons of the soil”. Malaysia of course legally discriminate against non Muslims, unlike Indonesia or India. You also said that, in India the Kashmir or Muslim issue is seen as a national problem unlike what happens in Pakistan, which are more interested in their own problems. But of course, if say Bal Thakaray wanted to make the Roop Kanwar thing legal, India would have serious issues with fundies too, like the rape laws were legal in Pak. Bal Thakaray also condemned the incident. There are not fewer bombs in Pakistani mosques than in Indian temples, but the bomb blasts are also done by Muslims. Just like blasts are done in non Muslim majority France by Muslims and also in Muslim majority Egypt and Algeria by Muslims. If Muslim majority Egypt blasts bombs in Coptic Churches or in Egyptian lands, the minority of Christians won’t be in a position to retaliate however if they trouble the French in France of course there’ll be race riots…
If you have to compare India with a Muslim land, do so with something like Turkey, which unlike Indonesia is someplace I’ve visited. Turkey has archaic practices, the occassional stoning women in its Kurdish regions like the absolutely condemnable Roop Kanwar incident, honor crimes, killing of missionaires and attempts to reconvert neo converts to Christ back to Islam. However, there is a state machinery firmly in place to deal with the transgressors. The situation in Saudi, Iran or under Taliban of course is diametrically different. Honor Killings in Jordan and Syria, stonings in Shariah governed Iran and Nigeria are legal, with plenty of cases a year of the state enforcing them and while the semi literate Christians in South Africa do still burn the occassional witch, the Saudi state officially executes witches. I don’t think the world would be as wary of Islam if all the Muslim nations resembled Turkey or Indonesia, they’d shrug off those problems like they treat India. There’s no Hindu\ Buddhist equivalent of Taliban, Nigeria, Iran and all.
Incidentally, interfaith marriages in India are not as “spectacularly uncommon” as you seem to believe, they’re more the norm than the exception among the Indian actors you know about. And unlike Indonesian laws, Indians in inter faith marriages don’t need to convert to a common faith for “future family stability”. My older brother is himself dating my Ismaili friend, if and when they decide to have a life together far into the future, I know neither parents would expect a conversion.And you must know from your Indian travels that Indian women generally wear ethnic clothes, and married women wear vermilion on their forehead. Yet, there are absolutely no laws mandating a dress code for women anywhere in India like the dress code in Aceh and Sulawesi in Indonesia. Ahmadiyya isn’t interfered with in India, and no sect of Hinduism is banned.
And yes I’m a Bharatman, or more specifically Bharatwoman or Bharatgirl. I mentioned that little factoid NOT for you to be “charmed and delighted” but as I’d prefer a more gender neutral mode of address. Same as Djoko would be an Indoman\woman. I and Lairedion disagree with Djoko’s views, like you do with mine. We don’t call Djoko an ape, bull or babboon or hope to scare him off, you…
So you don’t subscribe to nationalist or religious views, but much of the world does you know, just ask your twice Hajji Kabir of Khulna. The recent expulsion of thousands of illegal immigrants from Italy, Turkey’s admission into EU all issues have a nationalist\religious taint.
And nationalist sentiments don’t always mean aggression, they might as well be a measure of protection from annihilation. Had Indian Hindus not had that morsel of nationalist\religious sentiment, Hinduism might have been as near extinction in India as Zoroastrianism is in Iran. Churchill might not have been as much of a nationalist as Hitler who announced,” Churchill likes to take weekends in the country, I shall take countries in the weekend,” but he needed enough national pride too, if only to protect his homeland.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
timdog
@ Shloka – charmed and delighted to discover that you are a woman. However, I would gently point out to you that we are not discussing whether Islam is evil or not here; we are talking about Indonesian politics and it’s history. Islam clearly has a role in the topic, but what you or I may think of the faith is completely irrelevant to it.
Unlike you, I am not a one trick pony…Is Shloka a one trick pony because she stays focused and doesn’t get lost in speculative politico-historical contemplations which in the end are nothing more than a dog chasing its own tale and only try to prove the contemplator’s preconceptions?
Far more pressing than anything is the obvious fact that while Java, Bali, Sulawesi etc are all very much there, “Indonesia” simply DOES NOT EXIST, and virtually all of the problems that the geographical zone so-labeled experiences will never be solved as long as a quarter of a billion people approach those problems from a starting point of accepting that “Indonesia” is a real thing…
But that is a far bigger fish than we are attempting to fry here…Here I’m again totally with you. But in order to fry this fish we will have to leave behind the political correctness of a strict unitary NKRI and start looking at things as they really are.
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Dewa – fortunately nothing on websites like this one is ultimately anything more that self-indulgent tail-chasing; I’m quite frank about that. Still, self-indulgent tail-chasing, or “intellectual wanking” (it’s a fine phrase – I’ll borrow it if I may) is great fun – don’t pretend you don’t enjoy it yourself 😉
As for the afore-alluded big fish, I’m thinking of having a go at frying it myself sometime soon, though I’ll need a damn big pan…
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Ross says:
G’day, Timdog
Just a brief morning scan of IM after tea and toast.
My reference to Westerling was inevitable, as one of my ‘sell-out’ novels had him in its title. But his choice of the concept underlined its significance in archipelagic history.
I try to relate my Indonesian adventure stories to themes bules might recognise, viz. Red-Handed In Aceh, with its parallels to Ulster, and it is always a learning process for both writer and reader – until I wrote Westerling’s Legacy, I had not been familiar with Ratu Adil in any form.Maggie Thatcher made mistakes, but from my admittedly limited personal acquaintance with the lady, and study of her biographers, the mistakes were usually against her own better judgement. (the current horrors in Zimbabwe would not have arisen, it’s possible to argue, if she hadn’t allowed the Foreign Office and its tools in her Cabinet to thwart her instinctive urge to recognise the multiracial Muzorewa/Smith government) Similarly with the awful E.U.
If you must use the ‘C’ word to describe female politicians (and I personally would not use it about or in the presence of any woman) there’s a very disgruntled Senator in New York who could more appropriately be addressed thus. But better surely to reserve it for Jakarta’s Fatuous Pusillanimous Ignoramuses, male or female, who deserve it more than most.
On a further tangent, by the way, why has nobody started a thread on the absurd infatuation here with Obama? Do people really plump for a foreign country’s presidential candidates on the basis of how close to them he or she went to school?
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Interesting that so many talk about Acehnese and Papuan separatism, but we don’t get much input from those who have visited Maluku. Is it a separatist thing there or just good old sectarian hatred?
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Shloka
Incidentally, that was the year I fled Bangladesh with my family as a year old.
This means you are 17 or 18 years old!?
I’m impressed and flabbergasted. No wonder some seasoned intellectuals are jealous. -
Plenty of Bengali Smartypants around – fortunately some forgotten genius introduced them to marxism so that they can’t make much more than a literary nuisance of themselves to the rest of us 😀
Pace the Precocious Shloka who is not making a nuisance of herself at all.
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@Ross – just to clarify – neither would I use the C-word towards a woman (not even the one in New York, who I am none-too fond of), but Thatcher, quite catagorically, transcends all gender…
I agree – it’s time for an Obama thread – you gonna write it? -
Colonic Irrigation? Yes We Can!
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timdog
just to clarify – neither would I use the C-word towards a woman (not even the one in New York, who I am none-too fond of)
So we do have something in common.
Amazing.
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Which bit? The C-word or the woman in New York?
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The last one. Hitlery C.
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Lairedion says:
Obama thread is here. And yes we can!
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Actually, I have to say, though she’s no Thatcher, she is almost a candidate for supra-gender application of the C-word… If Barack “Muslim” Obama loses the election thanks to her f*cking around I will deem it warranted…
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Ross,
I live in Holland and I have contact with many Moluccans who are overwhelmingly in support of a separate Republik Maluku Selatan (RMS). The religious riots of late has somewhat put back the quest for an independent state and even the Moluccans here are now more focused on rebuilding the devastated islands rather than advocating for a separate state.
However we all know about the incident with Johan Teterisa who waived the RMS flag in front of SBY and the reward for him was life sentence. I think it’s still simmering there and in contrary to popular belief it’s not an entirely Christian matter. Alex Manuputty, the leader of the Front Kedaulatan Maluku (FKM) who has escaped to the US, is represented in Holland by the Santi brothers, two well-known Muslim Moluccans. Unfortunately Maluku has been flooded with Muslims from Java and Sulawesi and has severely affected the peaceful co-existence between local Muslims and Christians that has existed for centuries and has put traditional Moluccan adat (pela) under pressure.
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janma says:
While I don’t condone their actions the remains of that millennia old Hindu temple still lay underneath, as did the idol. If Bush had semi broken the Kaaba, and built a Church atop it, I’m sure you’d support the Muslims for wanting it back. The temple too was one of Hinduism’s holiest sites, but I don’t expect similar sympathy from you for the Hindus.
Actually, the mosque had been there for a good 300 years as well, so I think it was a shame to pull it down as well…
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Thanks, Lairedion. I have often wondered why, if the only separatists are old geezers in the suburbs of Rotterdam, our beloved regime here gets its collective knickers in such a brutal twist when the RMS flag is flown.
Timdog, you are only correct about Maggie in the sense that she had more b-lls than any modern UK leader before or since, excepting Churchill!
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Purba Negoro says:
The ignorant who claim conspiracy in Indonesia is factless, please read this:
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2822_indonesia_history.htmlIt also explains why Singapore’s British compradore extraodinaire Lew Kwan Yew had more British money than he could spend to create a communist free colonial trading post.
Lareidon- you are a traitor and a Dutch agent provocateur.
Your opinion on anything regarding Indonesia should be treated as the Dutch Colonialist bullsh*t it so obviously is.To be Indonesia is by definition to believe in Satu Nusa.
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PN,
I support Satu Nusa if Satu Nusa reverts back to its classical syncretism of Hinduism, Buddhism, kebatinan and aninism. The treason started a couple of hundreds years with converting en masse to Middle Eastern imports like Islam and later Christianity and the selling out by the rajas and the sultan to the VOC.
Sigh, do I need to teach a Javanese like you what being Javanese really meant?
Comment on “Blaming the Victim & Others”.
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@ Timdog,
“Men equal before God” does leave out one half of mankind-women. ( you wrote “his” comment on Alevis about me, I’m a woman) And how can you apeak about equality when women are not allowed to enter into many mosques, and sit behind men when they can enter into mosques, to even start with? And women can never lead mixed prayer sessions, so there’s a definite hierarchy.
And how can men even be equal when polygamy is permitted. Forget about hurting women, polygamy really hurts men. Even in U.S.A. billionaires like Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump have decades younger wives. In Muslim nations where polygamy is legal and widespread, like Saudi the oil rich billionaires will take all the women. Poor men won’t even get wives and get a chance to reproduce. They’ll be left fantasizing about the 72 virgins in Paradise, and may even turn into suicide bombers in the hope of getting those virgins now! G.B. Shaw said about polygamy,” Polygamy when tried under modern democratic conditions, is ruined by the revolt of the mass of inferior men who are reduced to celibacy by it, for the maternal instincts of a woman leads her to prefer a tenth share of a first rate man, than exclusive possession of a third.” Poor Prince Charles of Britain, he had to go into so much trouble to marry Camilla, whereas the Saudi King is openly polygamous! Christianity and present day Hinduism, Judaism and Buddhism at least ration out women to inferior and poor men .
So, you see, Islam is definitely not egalitarian to poor men! Extremely unkind to them.